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The AIH Transcript for January 22, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Open wound. Gilles Duceppe's mother died outside her Montreal nursing home a year ago — locked out and overlooked for hours in the cold. But the former Bloc Quebecois leader says it feels like yesterday because nothing has changed — and that's why his family is suing.

CH: Hacked off. A United Nations expert tells us she believes the Saudis accessed Jeff Bezos's phone. And she's demanding an immediate investigation by American authorities.

CO: City under quarantine. China has stopped all travel out of Wuhan — ground zero for the coronavirus outbreak. Our guest tells us the mood in the city is one of anxiety and fear with many people wondering if they're getting the whole truth.

CH: Persona non grata. An Iranian-Canadian truck driver tells us he's been stopped twice recently trying to cross into the United States. He believes it's because he shares a last name with the Iranian general killed by U.S. forces.

CO: Take our money, please! A group of very rich people is urging world leaders to raise their taxes —and their chairman tells us the motive is not altruism — it's more like enlightened self-interest.

CH: And...Feeling wooly-headed. A 15th-century masterpiece depicting the Lamb of God has been restored. But I have to warn you — it's left many people unsettled. They've described its eyes as "alarmingly humanoid" and compared its pout to Zoolander's.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that puts the ew in ewe.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Duceppe family, Coronavirus: latest, patriotic millionaires

Duceppe family

Guest: Gilles Duceppe

CH: One year ago, Gilles Duceppe got the shocking news. His 93-year-old mother, Helene Rowley Hotte Duceppe, had died at her nursing home. The cause of death was hypothermia: Ms. Duceppe left the building after hearing a fire alarm, and got locked out. It was minus-35 outside. She froze to death. Earlier this week, Mr. Duceppe — the former leader of the Bloc Quebecois — along with his six siblings, announced they were suing the Residences Lux Gouverneur for one-point-two-five-million dollars. We reached Gilles Duceppe in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Duceppe, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss.

GILLES DUCEPPE: Well, it's a year ago. It is like it is yesterday since nothing's been settled since then. So this is why we’re suing the company. Because of the report of the coroner was very clear. They made a lot of mistakes, and we have to change the way of taking care of the old age people. And the company should face their own responsibilities.

CO: It was it was shocking for everyone to learn last year that your mother was locked out of her residence in the dark — trapped in an outdoor courtyard. Six hours in minus 35.

GD: Six hours. And what was really shocking the fact that the first declaration of the Lux Gouverneur was to say that she went out and she fell down. She didn't move after that. Well, when we Corona saw the images of the cameras, she said, well, she fell down five-hours-and-a-half later [slight chuckle]. So it's quite different.

CO: Her access card wouldn't work to go back in?

GD: No. But the thing is, when you're opening that kind of a door, there's an alarm. And instead of just changing the alarm, you look on the other side of the door. She was there trying to get back inside.

CO: The details as you were mentioning it, they didn't look; they turned off the alarm without looking outside.

GD: Exactly. They didn’t look at the cameras. They told the firemen that they checked if everyone was back in the room, which was not true. They waited five months before apologizing to the family — after the coroner made the report.

CO: She had a fear of fire — which is how do you think that meant that she would react to this alarm? Because that's what started all this, right?

GD: She had a great fear of fire. Because when she was young, she was four years old when in a theatre in Montreal, 72 children died because of the fire. So she had that in mind since she was very young. So when she heard the alarm, and when she heard the police were there, the Firemen were there, Ambulances were there, she followed the rules. She went for the first door to go outside. But they didn't check if people were outside after that, or if they came back in their rooms or their apartments, I should say because she was pain three-thousand-seven-hundred a month without meals. It was a nice place, of course. But we convinced her to go there because of the security measures they were announcing and advertising.

CO: And it's so disturbing that she did everything that she thought was the right thing in order to protect herself in case there was a fire.

GD: Exactly.

CO: And that's what led her to into this situation.

GD: And the day before — hours before — she was thinking of the poor people in the streets. So she told my sisters… how do you say that in English?

CO: Like knitting, knitwear, like warm woolens.

GD: That’s is! For people in the streets. She said it’s too cold, so I’ll do that all day long. And tomorrow, come take that and give them to those poor people.

CO: She was knitting for them.

GD: And she’s the one who died because of the cold. It was minus 35 with a lot of wind in the night.

CO: I can't even imagine what that moment was like, and maybe you can just tell us what was she like? Tell us a bit about your mother. She was named Rowley. My grandfather was a British home child. She was in great shape for her age. I was the last one to see her. A few hours before, I was going to Mexico on vacation. And she was coming from Montreal downtown, coming from her hairdresser. She was reading the papers every morning, a book a week, and very alert. And even she saw her doctor a month before she died. And the heart was at 120 on 80. So the doctor wrote this is the heart of a young girl, and she was 93.

CO: And yet, this is a home you had confidence in, wasn't it?

GD: Obviously, obviously. This is why we convinced her to go there. And she wanted to stay in the eastern part of Montreal, where she was born, and she lived all her life. And this is a beautiful place, but the thing is even if you have the cameras, if you don't use them, it serves nobody.

CO: You said elsewhere that your mother never stops dying.

GD: Yes, because it’s always there. It’s not settled. And we’re always thinking of that. And people are asking us what's going? What are the next steps? And it's always tough when your mother, your father died. But when it's in the paper, when it's not settled, when people don't apologize by five months after, it’s coming back every day almost.

CO: As a politician, you understand the obligations of government. So what do you think needs to be done immediately to make sure this never happens again?

GD: Well, immediately, I think to form the employees working in those places. To have enough employees working in those places. All the recommendations made by coroners because it’s not the first time it happened. And I think they should all be implemented. And not waiting to implement all of them at the same time. If something is ready to be done, do it right now. And I think we should protect better the old age people. They're the one who built Quebec and Canada — the world. And instead of discussing, we should create a security Prince Harry and Meghan, we should discuss protecting the security of old people then in our society.

CO: What advice do you have for families — people who are in the midst of decisions about having their loved ones go into homes?

GD: I think they should ask how it works. They should read those reports — its public — and ask questions concerning those recommendations if they're implanted in the places they want to go.

CO: But how can they trust the homes? This was a very, very highly-regarded residence. So how can they trust a home after what you have gone through?

GD: If there's a judgment, and all the recommendations are implemented, then it'd be more possible. But today, certainly not.

CO: Mr. Duceppe, I really appreciate speaking with you. And again, I'm so sorry about your mother.

GD: Thank you.

CO: Bye.

GD: Bye.

CH: Gilles Duceppe and his siblings are suing the seniors' home where their 93-year-old mother died one year ago this week. Their lawsuit has not been tested in court. Mr. Duceppe is also the former leader of the Bloc Quebecois. We reached him in Montreal. And for more on this story, go to: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Horns!]

Coronavirus: latest

Guest: William Yang

CH: In Wuhan, China, authorities are taking drastic steps to try to contain the outbreak of coronavirus. The city of eight-point-nine-million is closing its airport and train stations to outbound passengers, and suspending its local transportation networks. People are being asked not to leave the city starting tomorrow. But with the virus already popping up in other Asian countries — and one confirmed case in the U.S. — there are fears that it's too little, too late. Today, the World Health Organization held a press conference to share the latest on the spread of the virus. Here is Dr. Michael Ryan — the Executive Director of the WHO Health Emergencies Programme.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL RYAN: Primary issue is to limit human-to-human transmission to reduce secondary infections — especially amongst close contact. And particularly in health care environments. We need to prevent transmission through amplification events and super spreading events. And obviously, prevent further international spread. We need all member states to focus on early identification and isolation of suspect cases and probable and confirmed cases. There are many unknowns to address — including clinical severity, and the true extent and nature of disease transmission. So the organization is fully activated at all levels with our partners in response to this event.

CH: That was the WHO's Michael Ryan speaking at a press conference today. The organization said it's holding off on declaring an international health emergency, but will meet again tomorrow for more deliberation. William Yang is the East Asia correspondent for Deutsche Welle's English service. We reached him in Taipei, Taiwan.

CO: William, what are people in Wuhan telling you about the mood in the city right now?

WILLIAM YANG: So my sources on the ground are telling me that the mood right now in this city is just pure anxiety, and also a lot of fear about what exactly is going to develop — but only until three days ago that they finally started getting official confirmation from the government. So they are considering the handling of the government a little bit too late for the outbreak.

CO: And so what are people doing? What precautions are they taking?

WY: The government actually just introduced a official law that require every citizen in the city to wear masks at public places. So like movie theaters, and department stores, or even if they go to like government buildings, they are required to wear masks.

CO: Uh-huh. And so is that happening? Is wearing a mask?

WY: Yeah, according to sources like basically everyone that they see on the street are putting out masks. And also, hand sanitizers and like sanitizing wipes are basically all sold out.

CO: But this has already spread from Wuhan, and spread from China. It’s in other countries, one case of it now in the United States that's been confirmed. So how much wider does this need to be? What are people saying? What are you hearing about what efforts there are to try and contain the virus?

WY: So right now, at least in East Asia, where I am based, we are in the region where a lot of the first few overseas cases popped up. Governments are coordinating among themselves, and also frantically communicating with the Chinese officials to try to get the latest information about the virus. And you know, including the original source of the virus and also how exactly are the virus being transmitted? Because they considered this as the very crucial information for them to be able to set up mechanisms to cope with it.

CO: And this idea of how it's being spread is key, isn't it? It's originated in one specific market in Wuhan. Do we know what was in that market that might have been the source of the virus?

WY: Right. So actually, one of my source lived not too far from the market itself. And what he said is that the market has been known for selling not just a fisheries that is being advertised by the name of the market, but also wild animals that a lot of them are actually you know illegally being sold on the market. But because the local official never actually crack down on that behaviour, so the local residents are just very used to going there and get all the you know rare delicacies that these businessmen catched or imported from different parts of China.

CO: So they've narrowed it down to that. But then they didn't close the market immediately. What did your friend — your source — tell you about how slow it was for them to actually act on that market?

WY: So information or rumours about the mysterious infection started circulating in Wuhan at the end of December. But at that time, the market was still open. And at least at some of the biggest local newspapers in Hubei province, what they were saying about these mysterious rumours or just simply telling the local residents these are non-transmittable infections. And so they don't need to worry about it too much. And the market was still operating for at least a week until the outbreak really got out of control.

CO: Do you know when they first realized that this was transmittable, in fact, it could be passed human-to-human?

WY: So it was when dozens or over 100 people suddenly all had the same symptoms — the pneumonia symptom. And a lot of them being hospitalized. Some local residents who are more, you know, connected to social media started frantically searching for relevant information on local social media. And then what they saw confirmed that this is not just a simple infection cases. And in fact, the symptoms reminded them of the SARS epidemic that was really damaging and plaguing China back in 2002 and 2003.

CO: You live in Taipei. What personal concerns do you have for you and your family? Are you worried about this?

WY: Yeah, so people here are actually also very worried about the spread of this virus because we have hundreds-of-thousands of Taiwanese people working in China. And, in fact, because starting tomorrow is the Lunar New Year holiday, and most of them are going to fly back from China. And just Wuhan alone had thousands of Taiwanese people working there. And we actually already have one confirmed cases. That's actually a lady in her 50s who worked in Wuhan on a daily basis. And she was confirmed to have already contracted the virus. So right now, at the local drugstores and everywhere, all the hand sanitizers and masks are all sold out. And there are no stockpiles at many of the local places here.

CO: Wow! And we know that during Lunar New Year in Asia, just massive numbers, millions of people will be on the move because of that holiday. Do you think it will curtail those movements? Do you think people will think twice about doing their normal trips to see their families because of the virus?

WY: A lot of the friends who were originally planning to travel to different parts of the island are now you know limiting their schedules. And experts are predicting that the next two weeks are going to be very crucial, you know when it comes to whether this virus is going to have an outbreak in Taiwan or not.

CO: Well, William, we will leave it there. Stay healthy. And thank you for speaking with us.

WY: Thank you so much.

CO: Goodnight.

CH: That was William Yang — the East Asia correspondent for Deutsche Welle's English Service. He's in Taipei, Taiwan. And you can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Slow, glassy rock]

Patriotic millionaires

Guest: Morris Pearl

CH: Some of the wealthiest and most powerful decision-makers on Earth are currently enjoying, or pretending to enjoy, each other's company in Davos, Switzerland, at The World Economic Forum. And with all those bespoke suits rubbing elbows, you might think there's general agreement among the millionaires. But today, some of them have a message that has others clutching their platinum credit cards protectively. The message is: we want to pay more taxes. One-hundred-and-twenty-one people have signed a letter headed "Millionaires Against Pitchforks" — including Disney heiress Abigail Disney and former Unilever CEO Paul Polman. Morris Pearl is the former managing director of Blackrock, one of the world's largest investment firms. He's the chairperson of the group The Patriotic Millionaires — which issued that letter. We reached Mr. Pearl in New York City.

CO: Mr. Pearl, in this letter asking rich people to pay more taxes, you sign off: Sincerely, your fellow millionaires and billionaires. What kind of response have you had?

MORRIS PEARL: Well, you know, we have all of those people signed the letter that we've been recruiting for a few weeks. And I think most people really agree with us that there's a serious problem. It's just some of them don't want to pay more taxes. [CO chuckles] So.

CO: That's the issue. What are they saying in Davos? Have had response to people there to this idea?

MP: You know, I haven't heard from anyone who's in Davos yet. But you know we were pretty impressed that people are making a difference. I think people are switching from a very short-term time frame, make money this month. To a more long term-time frame, what can I do to be making money next year and the year after and for the next generation?

CO: I guess I want to hear your argument — because as we know for many wealthy people, tax avoidance is kind of a point of pride. So what's the argument you're giving as to why they should look into this idea of paying more taxes?

MP: Well, I'm telling people that the world is changing. That people are not putting up with this anymore. That's what we saw in 2016 — in the election year in the United States — that people were rejecting the status quo. I think that's what we saw in the United Kingdom when people voted to exit the European Union. And in both cases, it's sort of they want to believe there's some enemy that's causing their problems and deal with it. They don't want to cooperate and be part of this massive globalized economy because it's not working for them. And I'm afraid that you know as we said the latter that people are going to start marching with pitchforks, and we're going to social unrest, and things are gonna be bad. So we have to have a change.

CO: So the argument is enlightened self-interest?

MP: Yes. I don't claim to be purely altruistic I don't think anyone is. Well, maybe some people are. But I think it's in the enlightened self-interest of the wealthy peoples to change, to do something.

CO: We are now in a situation as you talk about — which is that there are now a handful of billionaires, about two-thousand of them, two-thousand billionaires who have more wealth than 60 per cent of the planet's population. That since we have this idea, I think Warren Buffett started talking about this some years ago when he discovered his secretary was paying more taxes than he was that this had to change. And yet, it continues. Rich people continue to try and find ways of avoiding paying taxes. So why is that?

MP: Well, I think some people are just greedy. Not everyone, you know, Warren Buffett pointed that out. But even he was talking about the income tax rate he paid on ten-million dollars of taxable income he makes every year — disregarding the billions of dollars he makes every year in the appreciation of his ownership of his company, Berkshire Hathaway. I think we have to realize that wealthy people are just much more wealthy than everyone else that it's becoming clear to the everyone else that they don't have a chance.

CO: If you're telling them that the alternative to acting on this and having a more fair distribution or redistribution of wealth if you don't do that, you're going to be facing pitchforks. Isn't that just more of a reason for them to be wealthy so they can protect themselves from that?

MP: Well, sure. A small people can do things like buying a private island off the coast of New Zealand, and building their own airport and hiding out there. But most people don't want to be there. They want to be here in New York, and in San Francisco, and in London, and Toronto — places where people go to enjoy their lives. And so people I think it's much better — and most people agree — that we want to avoid revolution, not sort of plan to deal with revolution.

CO: You say you're the chair of Patriotic Millionaires, and you're an American. So why is this movement, why are you looking to make this a global movement, and not just focus on your own country?

MP: Well, look, we are mostly focusing on our own country. But we have you know hundreds of people here in the United States, and we're realizing that we have to you know go other places too. And it's really an international problem because so much wealth can be easily moved from nation to nation. The very wealthiest can easily move from nation to nation. Nobody really knows where they are anyway. And that's the kind of thing that we have to do.

CO: And, of course, people say well they are doing something about it. They're giving money through philanthropy. They're donating to charities. They're building wings on hospitals. Isn't that a way to do it?

MP: Well, yes. We want the very richest people deciding how society wealth should be spent, whether it's a hospital here and an opera house there. We need all of the people through the elected representatives they vote for making those decisions. Not just the few wealthiest deciding to spend a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of one per cent of their money on things that look like philanthropy.

CO: Okay. You know that the ideas that you're talking about, redistribution of wealth. It sounds a lot like like Bernie Sanders. And we know that Mr. Trump is warning against creeping socialism. What kind of response do you think you'll get politically in the United States to your ideas?

MP: Well, look, I think we're seeing a huge response politically to our ideas. And you know, more people voted against Mr. Trump than voted for Mr. Trump in the last election. And the ideas that we're proposing are mainstream now when they're considered completely off the wall five years ago. So, yeah, we're seeing a very favourable political response right now.

CO: All right Mr. Pearl, we'll be watching.

MP: Thank you. Great to be on your show.

CO: [chuckling] Bye-bye.

CH: Morris Pearl is the chair of the group The Patriotic Millionaires, and a former managing director of the investment firm, Blackrock. We've got more on this story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Instrumental]

Ghent Altar restoration

CH: Have you ever wondered what possesses you to cut little crosses into your Brussels sprouts? Well, it's about what possesses them: people in medieval times believed those little crosses would protect you from the miniature demons that lived inside their layers of tiny leaves. My point is that people back then were wrong about almost everything — including science, medicine, and demons in vegetables. And, it turns out, art. For example: check out the newly restored Ghent Altarpiece at St. Bavo's Cathedral in Belgium — more specifically, the Lamb of God at the centre of the altarpiece. When you see it, you won't believe your eyes — or its eyes. The Ghent Altarpiece is an elaborately symbolic multi-panel work painted by Jan and Hubert van Eyck in 15th century. And in the mid-16th century, someone altered it pretty extensively. So, as part of an ongoing project, restorers have been stripping away those alterations to reveal the work's original majesty, or, in one case, monstrosity. The restorers discovered that whoever painted over the original made some changes to the lamb's eyes — to make them look like lamb's eyes. Because the restoration has revealed that the van Eyck brothers gave the lamb a person's eyes — which makes its face — in the words of Smithsonian Magazine — "alarmingly humanoid". It is alarming. This is the scariest lamb you'll ever see. Further proof that even medieval artists were affected by the era's general wrongness, so it's no wonder that 16th-century painter decided it was time for a fresh pair of eyes.

[Music: Indie]

Part two: Bezos report, Iranian/Canadian truck driver

Bezos report

Guest: Agnes Callamard

CH: By now, Jeff Bezos probably regrets ever exchanging numbers with Mohammed bin Salman. The Amazon boss swapped contacts with the Saudi Crown Prince at a dinner in Los Angeles in 2018, according to a report in The Financial Times. And, now, it appears the Saudis used that personal connection to hack Mr. Bezos's phone. Today, the United Nations is demanding an immediate investigation into the hack. UN experts believe the phone was likely accessed using spyware sent by a WhatsApp message. That message came from an account belonging to the Crown Prince. And they believe the surveillance was meant to influence reporting on Saudi Arabia by the Washington Post — which is owned by Mr. Bezos. Agnes Callamard is one of the UN experts. We reached her in Salt Lake City, Utah.

CO: Ms. Callamard, do you believe the Crown Prince was personally involved in hacking Jeff Bezos’ phone?

AGNES CALLAMARD: Well, I believe that there is sufficient evidence pointing to his WhatsApp account having been used to input a malware into Jeff Bezos’ phone — whether the WhatsApp account was directly and personally used by MBS or by people working for him, that I cannot tell you.

CO: Just for people who don't know or remember, Mohammed bin Salman is MBS, and that the Crown Prince we're talking about. So what's the evidence about the hack?

AC: To summarize it, sometime in February 2019, Jeff Bezos’ security team became aware that there were possibility of the phone being hacked. It took them three months to conclude that the most likely source of the hacking was a video file sent from a WhatsApp account owned by MBS, sometime at the end of April 2018.

CO: Okay, I'm just trying to make sense of the dates here. If this malware was entered into Mr. Bezos’ phone April 2018, this is before Jamal Khashoggi was murdered. So what is it close to? This is after Mr. Bezos has become the owner of the Washington Post.

AC: Yes.

CO: Are those related facts?

AC: That's the allegations we are raising. The phone of Mr. Bezos was hacked at the time when Jamal Khashoggi had been writing for the Washington Post very critical reporting. It was hacked at the time when the phone of four other Saudi dissidents were hacked. So we see the hacking of Mr. Bezos as part of the beginning or the full implementation of a campaign seeking to control negative reporting on Saudi Arabia. I do not suggest that the hacking was directly related to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. However, it is clear that hacking has played a central part in the killing of Jamal Khashoggi in that information gathered through the hacking reinforced the conviction in Saudi Arabia that Mr. Jamal Khashoggi was a threat, and that needed to be addressed.

CO: The last time you and I spoke was about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. He was murdered in October 2018. And so again, trying to get at the motives here, the security consultant for Jeff Bezos says that he believes that the Saudis were intent on harming Jeff Bezos — and because of the relentless coverage by Jamal Khashoggi. And that that's why they wanted access to his private information on his phone. Do you agree with that assessment?

AC: You know, we have got no evidence, at least I have received no evidence that Mr. Bezos’ economic and commercial activities in Saudi Arabia where in any ways threatened, somewhat the object of illegitimate pressure on the part of the Saudi authorities. So that leaves us to the Washington Post angle. It appears to be the most likely reason as to why Mr. Bezos’ phone may have been hacked — at least within the time frame.

CO: Another detail of this as you know Jeff Bezos, he had an extramarital affair. The details of words and photographs of which ended up in the National Enquirer. And there are many suggestions that that had something to do with the Saudis since there was also a glowing portrait of the royal family in the National Enquirer around the same time. Do you tie those things together? Do you think that if there was this hack into Mr. Bezos’ phone that they were looking for this kind of personal information?

AC: Look, I think we will have to wait for the outcome of the FBI investigation into the blackmail and extortion of Mr. Bezos. Because I suspect one of the issues the FBI is going to consider is a source of the hack, the source of the information in the hand of the National Enquirer. In my view, it is incumbent upon the American authorities to do all they can. The fact that Saudi Arabia may have hacked the phone of a U.S. citizen that is a central economic actor in the country and the richest man on earth should give them material enough to proceed with a thorough study.

CO: We know that we know that there is a relationship between the President of the United States, Donald Trump that he wants good relations with the Crown Prince. So do you think at some point it becomes very political and perhaps very difficult to get the answers that you're seeking?

AC: Yes, I mean, it is possible. This is a difficult environment. There are elections at the end of the year. There is an impeachment process right now. In the bipartisanship process, he has proven — which worked very well last year with regard to Saudi accountability may not work so well right now. So that to me is a wakeup call to take the issue of hacking and surveillance extremely seriously.

CO: We will leave it there. We'll be following this story. Ms. Callamard, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

AC: Thank you very much.

CH: Agnes Callamard is the UN special rapporteur on summary executions and extrajudicial killings. She was in Salt Lake City, Utah.

[Music: Ambient]

Rutgers president

CH: Jonathan Holloway has a truly amazing resume — graduate of Stanford and Yale, PhD, published author, provost at Northwestern University, dean of Yale College. All of which is pretty staggering. But to Mr. Holloway himself, the latest addition to his CV is the biggest deal of all: yesterday, he was appointed the President of Rutgers University. It's partly a big deal to him because he's the first-ever black president in the school's long history. And partly because — as Jonathan Holloway revealed in a speech following yesterday's announcement — Rutgers is a place he's wanted to work for a long time.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN HOLLOWAY: As you know, I'm a historian by training. And I've spent my scholarly career focused upon the post-emancipation United States. My work exists at the crossroads of intellectual and social history — meaning that I have explored the history of ideas and the people who generated them. Most recently, I've written about universities. Through my scholarship, I have come to appreciate the nuances that are woven into the fabric of a research university in unblinking acceptance of complexity and an unwavering dedication to service. These attributes make universities special places. And although it may sound quaint to some, and it may sound ridiculous when one thinks about how large Rutgers is. I think of universities as beloved communities. They are far from perfect, but they are deeply committed to the pursuit of perfection. One last quick story, 29 years ago, when I was in graduate school, I found myself talking on the phone with the eminent historian David Levering Lewis, then a professor at Rutgers. I don't recall the specifics of the conversation, but I do remember being so excited that I called my mother right after to tell her that I might have a job at Rutgers. Somehow I was able to ignore the fact that I was only in my third semester at my doctoral program.

[laughing from the crowd]

JH: And in retrospect, I'm quite certain that Professor Lewis wasn't offering me anything at that time. But as you’ll come to know, I’m the kind of person in whom hope always springs eternal. And wouldn't you know it, [breaking down] I thought I could through this moment. [laughing with the crowd]

[crowd claps]

JH: No, no, no, no, no. And wouldn’t you know it, this time my hope paid off. Mom, I got the job.

[laughing and applause]

CH: Jonathan Holloway is the newly appointed President of Rutgers University in New Jersey — and the institution's first-ever black President.

[Music: Electronica]

Iranian/Canadian truck driver

Guest: Babak Soleimani

CH: For four years, Babak Soleimani has been working as a truck driver, delivering goods from Canada into the United States. But now the Iranian-Canadian is worried it's the end of the road. A week after the United States assassinated a high-ranking general — Mr. Soleimani says he was denied entry at the border, interrogated for hours, and told not to come back to the U.S. ever again. Now his job and his family's future are at risk. And, although he wasn't given a reason for being turned away, Mr. Soleimani believes he was denied entry because of his last name — which just happens to be the same as the late Iranian general Qassem Soleimani. We reached Babak Soleimani on the road in Ontario.

CO: Babak, did you have any reason to believe that there would be trouble crossing that border on January 10^th?

BABAK SOLEIMANI: No actually. I heard from Iranian people. They stopped that some people and they asking some question, but I'd never think they are doing like this to me.

CO: Had you ever been stopped and questioned like that at the American border before?

BS: I never, ever stop for any reason.

CO: Right. And just you go through the normal procedures as a truck driver carrying stuff. They ask you questions, and you keep going?

BS: Exactly.

CO: So what was different about this stop? What happened?

BS: First, they stopped me, and the agent at the border, he said your transponder doesn't work. You should go inside for paying for that. And then 15 minutes, one of the agents border with the police car, they came to me with the light on. They escorted me to inside. They took my cell phone with passport, and they took my wallet. They made the copy, and they keep all of them like cell phone wallets until they let me back to Canada.

CO: Wow! And did they give you a chance to let anybody know that you were being stopped at the border? Could you make a phone call?

BS: Honestly, the worst thing is that my wife, she was very worried about me. And I asked them okay, please give me my cell phone. I want to just make a call to my wife. And I want to tell her there is no reason for worry. They didn't give me this chance to doing this since midnight to 7 a.m. — exactly whole time I was over.

CO: And your wife just had a baby just some weeks ago, right?

BS: Yeah. I have a newborn girl. And that's the big problem for us right now. I'm worried for her. She got my last name too.

CO: I'll get to that in a moment. But concerning your last name, your name is Soleimani. It’s the same. As General Qasem Soleimani — who had just been assassinated in Iraq a week before.

BS: Yes, that is correct. It is exactly same last name. But this is a very popular last name. If you search in this last name, it’s like maybe 100-thousand people with this last name.

CO: Chuckle. So you have no relation to the man who was assonated?

BS: Absolutely no, absolutely no.

CO: Okay, but let's clear up one thing. You are a Canadian citizen. You came to Canada from Iran. You left to escape from the Iranian regime. And now you're a Canadian, is that right?

BS: Exactly. When I'm going anywhere, I'm gonna introduce myself by Canadian. When I'm escaping Iran, I'm running from all madness in Iran. I found that when we came to Canada — me and my wife — we find a good place for build a life. That's why after 13 years, we decide to have a baby in this country. And I'm happy to be living in Canada. I guess this is the best gift from God. Only this happen Is make me sad. I guess it's not fair, it's not fair to me.

CO: Okay, let's get a few more details about what happened to you. So what kinds of questions were they asking you over all those hours you were detained?

BS: The main question they had it, that was my last name. After any couple of questions, they ask the same question like this my last name. They ask me more than ten times from different way. And they ask me about my opinion, this situation between Iran and the US. And I ask them honestly. Maybe that's my fault. My opinion was that, you know, that Trump killed one guy in Iran, and they crashed the airplane in Iran. Finally, we lose Canadian person.

CO: Okay, that’s what you said.

BS: Exactly, exaclty

CO: You said that because Mr. Trump killed Soleimani, well, it's an opinion that many people share on both sides of the border. You expressed that, maybe that was not the right thing to do. But they didn't have anything on you, right? Was there anything that they could point to?

BS: No, that was my own opinion. And there is nothing changed. I'm a truck driver. I'm not a part of any government or political system.

CO: Okay, so what has to happen then? Many people — Canadians and Americans — were being detained at the border after what happened in Iran. Eventually, many of them were able just to go through. Were you able to carry on into the United States?

BS: The first day, they stopped me at the Windsor border. And the second day, I tried to cross the border from Buffalo. And I have a five-hour stop second day. A supervisor from that border, he said don't come back to the United States anymore. He said, I cannot give you the detail. He also took my fast card, and I asked for a receipt from him. He said, you don't need a receipt.

CO: Okay, so it looks like you can't go back to the United States as far as what that information says, right?

BS: That’s correct.

CO: Now, what is that going to do to your job?

BS: I have to say I appreciate about my company. They know my situation. They know I have a newborn baby. And I have to work out more than before. They try to keep me as a local driver around the Toronto. But I have no idea about future, and how long they can keep me like this?

CO: But you might lose your job at this point?

BS: Maybe it's happened, yeah?

CO: And nothing cleared up? Were you able to get any answers, any more information from the United States about your status?

BS: Honestly, no. I'm so worried about my kids, my family, my wife. They are looking to me. I have to be strong.

CO: Babak, I'm sorry to hear that. And I hope you keep your job. I hope that works out.

BS: Mm, thank you very much. I Really appreciate it, Carol.

CO: Bye-bye.

BS: Bye.

CH: Babak Soleimani is an Iranian Canadian truck driver who has been denied entry at the U.S. border. We reached him on the road. We've contacted U.S. Customs and Border Protection for comment. We have yet to hear back.

[Music: Soulful rhythm]

FTR: Larry Walker

CH: Once you become eligible for the National Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York, you have ten years to be elected. If you haven't made it by the end of those ten years, you're out of contention. This year was Larry Walker's last chance. And, like a true Canadian, he was pretty confident that he was not confident. Yesterday, he tweeted, "Although I believe I'm going to come up a little short today, I still wanna thank all you that have been pulling for me and showing your support." Well, yesterday, the Baseball Writers' Association of America elected two players: Derek Jeter — who was a given — and Larry Walker. Who, [chuckling] at least in his own opinion, wasn't. Mr. Walker was born in Maple Ridge, BC, and played 17 seasons in the majors — including six with the Montreal Expos, and ten with the Colorado Rockies. He won National League batting titles in 1998, 1999, and 2001. He was an All-Star five times, and won seven Golden Gloves. Those stats, plus yesterday's vote, mean Fergie Jenkins is not the only Canadian in the Hall of Fame anymore. In an interview with the MLB Network, Larry Walker talked about Mr. Jenkins, and about his homeland — for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB COSTAS: Hey Larry, it's Bob Costas. Congratulations.

LARRY WALKER: Hi, Bob.

BC: You just said that you really sincerely, you weren't kind of just girding yourself up for disappointment and lowering the expectations. You really didn't think you would make it. So this has to mean something extra special emotionally to get that call from Jack O'Connell?

LW: It was, Bob. It was so special. Like I said, I barely remember the moment — I was kind of floating on air, and having some friends and family around me. And a lot of things entered my head when the phone rang. And as I was hearing what was being said to me, you know? And as a Canadian, it was a proud moment for me to represent my country and be able to join Ferguson Jenkins in the Hall of Fame.

BC: Larry, it’s Tom Verducci. Congratulations, I'm glad you brought up your home country. I spoke with Ryan Dempster, and he talked about taking a ferry 40 minutes to go play baseball because you made the dream possible for him as a Canadian to be a major league player, Larry Walker — an inspiration for anybody in our country growing up with an idea of playing baseball. So my question is for you. Where did your dream to be a baseball player come from, and when did it include the Hall of Fame?

LW: Well, [chuckle] this moment right here would’ve never entered my mind as a child growing up. Of course, being Canadian, you're born into this world with a stick in your hand and skates on your feet. So that's how I was as a kid. You played hockey and that's all that really mattered. When Hockey didn't quite go the way I wanted, baseball more or less found me is the story I've always told. And I didn't work hard at baseball at the beginning until I realized I had a little bit of ability at it. So once I figured that out, watching a lot of people play, learning from their mistakes, learning from their successes, and listening to my coaches and fellow teammates, it led me to this moment here. And here we are.

CH: Larry Walker, from an interview with the MLB Network — which added some music in there [laughing]. Later in that interview, he continued to be Canadian — acknowledging that his fellow 2020 inductee, Derek Jeter, was a somewhat bigger name.

SOUNDCLIP

BC: Well, Larry, you waited ten years for that phone call, and when it came, you're going in not alone, but with Derek Jeter. What does it mean to you to be inducted this summer in Cooperstown with Derek Jeter?

LW: Yeah, pretty awesome [laughing]. I mean, we're talking about one of the icons of the game in Jeter. And, Derek, congratulations obviously for your induction, and I look forward to hanging with you. I guess I'll probably be seeing him shortly. But you know one of those names that goes along with the greats of any sports. That you say a name, and you're talking about one of the best ever. So you know I was thinking about it that as great as Derek is, I'm kind of beat going to be like that remember those old 45s we used to listen to, and they had the song on the side?

[everyone laughing]

LW: And the song on the b side you really didn't know about. I'm the b side.

CH:Canadian Larry Walker, speaking to the MLB Network yesterday, after he was inducted in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

[Music: [Slow, glassy rock]

Part three: Alberta oil taxes, Harry and Meghan paparazzi

LR: Book murderer

CH: "Monstrous!" "Reprehensible!" "Blasphemy!" Just some of the totally level-headed reactions to a story we told you about last night — about books. Yesterday, a writer named Alex Christofi tweeted: "My colleague called me a 'book murderer' because I cut long books in half to make them more portable. Does anyone else do this? Is it just me?" Then he shared a picture of three books — each chopped cleanly in half down the spine.

CO: Okay, so that sent a chill down Twitter's spine. Jeff Hawn tweeted: "I thought we were a nation of laws." [CH chuckles] And Kim Mackey wrote: "Books should be loved, marked, devoured, and enjoyed. But destroyed? Never."

CH: Now, some of you tried to understand where Mr. Christofi was coming from. Alvin Peterson tweeted: "I'm a recent convert to dog-ears, and even making notes in the margin; but this my friend is a serious case of 'book murder'." [CO chuckles]

CO: Well, if Mr. Christofi is a book murderer — we're not exactly sure what that makes this listener's father.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A phone connects]

CALLER: Good morning. This is Sharon Pointer calling. And I'm calling from Borups Corners — which is close to Dryden, Ontario. My dad sort of did the same thing — for he never really read any hardcover books. But as he read each page, he would rip the page off. He always knew where he was. He would often mention that he had read such a great book. But if you wanted to read it, you would have to put the pages back together. Have a good day. Thanks very much. I enjoy your show. Bye-bye.

CO: [CO and CH laughing] Well, of course, you always know where you are in the book then.

CH: You always know exactly where you are. You can't judge who exactly you're with. [both laugh more] What kind of person… Anyway, now, not many of you wanted to take out of Sharon Pointer's dad's book. But Katie Jenson did have one condition that might make it okay to bisect a book. She wrote: "Anyone pretending to have an opinion on how to read 'Infinite Jest" must first prove they've read it at all."

CO: And only one person came to the book club with a solution. Call it "re-binding arbitration". David MacRury tweeted: "A little Gorilla Glue will fix that after they're done with it." [laughing] Which, okay, great idea, David. But can you then ever open the pages again?

CH: How do you fix the relationships?

CO: Oh, there’s that.

CH: With the people whose books you’ve destroyed [both laugh]

CO: Never tell them.

CH: Thanks for your responses. And if you'd like to comment on anything you hear on the show, call our Talkback line at 416-205-5687. Email us at aih@cbc.ca. Or tweet us at @cbcasithappens.

[Music: Indie rock]

Fake protest

CH: Julia Hackstaff thought it was a gig. The Vancouver actor says an industry contact offered her one-hundred dollars for a couple of hours of extra work on a movie shoot. So, on Monday, Ms Hackstaff followed instructions and made her way to the steps of the Vancouver courthouse. There she found a scene with lots of people who looked like reporters. And she joined a group of other young people equipped with signs. Those signs said things like, "Free Ms. Meng." Now, if you've been listening to our show, that might ring a bell. Because on Monday morning, the Vancouver courthouse was preparing for the arrival of Meng Wanzhou. She's the Chinese executive who's been detained in Canada at the request of the United States — much to the consternation of the Chinese government. But Julia Hackstaff says she had no idea. And she certainly didn't know that she'd been tricked into taking part in a paid protest, apparently in support of Ms. Meng. Yesterday Ms. Hackstaff told CBC Vancouver's Anita Bathe how the penny finally dropped.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIA HACKSTAFF: About maybe the second or third question, this reporter started to ask me and my friend. When she started wanting detailed answers. That's when it struck me, no, if this was background work, they wouldn't even care what we're talking about. I could be saying, potatoes, broccoli, and carrots, and that would be fine. So that's when I realized, no, these are actually real questions. This is a real person doing her job. And oh, my gosh! What's happening? So then I told her, please go ask questions to some other people. There's other people here. And at that moment, two other reporters also came up to us and approached me and started telling me why are you here? Why do you have these signs? And that is the piece of footage that I think has been going around me saying, I'm leaving. And that's basically when I told my friend let's go. So we turned around, threw the signs on the floor, and left. And I wrote to the person that contacted me immediately and asked what is happening? What is this about [laughing]? What's the deal? He replied probably five minutes or so after telling me let me, see, let me ask. And then he replied again telling me oh, guess what? This is actually a real protest. And, yeah, people are getting paid to do this, but it is real. So then, yeah, I was totally freaking out. And I was like oh my gosh, no! So I just replied like okay, we're leaving. I'm not interested in taking part of this.

ANITA BATHE: Today, now that you know what that protest was for, and what you were taking part of, how does that make you feel?

JH: Awful, horrible. I mean, independently of what my personal stand could be on whatever subject, it just really hurts. It hurts that someone — or someones — took advantage of people that work within the arts, and that are very passionate. I’m going to talk for myself. I'm very passionate about what I do and why I do it. And it's been horrible to be portrayed as someone that would do something like that for money. And I don't talk ill about people that do do that. But that's not me. That's not how I work. And we were lied to. So I think that's what speople should know.

CH: That was the Vancouver actress Julia Hackstaff explaining to the CBC's Anita Bathe how she got roped into a fake protest outside the court hearing of the Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou.

[Music: Bluegrass]

Alberta oil taxes

Guest: Paul McLauchlin

CH: If you own a home, you have to pay your property taxes. After all, you live in a community that provides services. And there are serious consequences for not coughing up what you owe. At least, for you and me there are. But if you're in a particular industry in a particular province, you apparently feel that paying your taxes is optional. An analysis by Rural Municipalities Alberta found oil and gas companies owe their local governments some 173-million dollars in unpaid taxes. For Paul McLauchlin, that number suggests a full-blown tax revolt. Mr. McLauchlin is the Reeve of Ponoka County, about 100 kilometres south of Edmonton. That's where we reached him.

CO: Mr. McLauchlin, how much money is Ponoka County owed by oil and gas companies?

PAUL MCLAUCHLIN: Well, we're looking at about two-point-six-million dollars is directly related to machinery equipment and linear as outstanding taxes to our county.

CO: And what does that mean to your local government? What does that represent?

PM: Well, you know it represents overall our gross budget. It represents about ten per cent of our gross budget. So it's definitely a considerable operational constraint to how we do things, how we plan. It changes how we do business. It changes how we contribute to our nonprofits. It changes how we work within our community. At the same time, you start to lose capital projects, and you start to have infrastructure starting to be a little bit weathered. And the last thing we ever want to do is to let people go. But if this continues, the inevitability is that this will mean jobs and resources to our residents.

CO: Okay. But if your citizens were to say they're not going to pay their property taxes, you have ways of dealing with that. Why can't you get them to pay their taxes — these oil and gas companies?

PM: Well, and I guess this is an education piece for the rest of Canada that the oil and gas industry in Alberta is really it's a surface lease. So you got the ability to actually operate on the top of the lab, and you have mineral rights underneath the land. And the person that's in between is you know Mary or Joe Landowner. And the fact is is that we have no ability to seize those assets. Court cases have put us in the back of the line. Environment is number one. That the money that's owed to the province to deal with past environmental liabilities. That's the number one to be paid, and it's put counties at the back the line for companies in receivership. Companies that are still operating, the ability for us to seize assets that again are surface assets that are operating oil gas wells that they need to be safe they need to function. Our ability to actually season operating gas well is next to zero.

CO: Okay. But we know from multiple reports that the oil patch is not doing terribly well now, not very profitable. So is it possible that they can't pay their taxes?

PM: I think that's a definite possibility. And definitely we have seen companies in distress. You know, these are parts of our community. Most of my neighbours work in oil and gas. I actually work in the field too as well. We're all touched by it. We know what's going on in the industry. So I do think definitely some are in distress. And I do think that some are choosing not to pay, and that this is a somewhat of a organized or disorganized tax revolt — knowing that we have no mechanisms available to us as municipalities to get those taxes.

CO: A tax revolt to what end?

PM: I think that there's probably a movement afoot to decrease the costs from the production end. I respect — I'm a business owner as well. I do believe that they might be pushing to decrease the assessment model so our taxes are less, again, just an operating line in their ledgers. And it just forces the hand.

CO: Well, they say that their taxes are assessed in a way that they think isn't fair. That their properties are assessed by the provincial government — which is based on replacement cost, and not the market value. The market value will be much less, is that correct?

PM: That's correct, yeah. And I guess the problem with that model, and I guess you know it's the agree-to-disagree problem with that model is if commodity prices were driving taxation. We've had a complex system with a bad canola year. I think that the canola farmers in central Alberta should be asking for a tax break as well. It's a confusing way to look at assets on the land. And I think, ultimately, what needs to happen is it needs to be fair and reasonable. And I don't think anybody can argue against that. At the same time, pay your taxes.

CO: Okay, so this sounds like a vicious circle. Because you might have to have layoffs at the municipality in the county if you don't get the taxes that are owed you. But the companies that should be paying the taxes might be laying off people who are in the oil patch who are the workers there. Who may not then not be able to do very well, might have to move, not pay their taxes. So, I mean, this just sounds like you're in a cycle here.

PM: Well, I agree. And I think that it becomes a question of who's more important than the other? And I don't think that's what we need to go. I think that we need to work together. You know, this is basically dealing with family. I mean, these industries are family to us because they're part of the fabric and structure of our community. So I think that you're right. I don't think it's an us-and-them. We need to find a middle ground solution that makes sense to everybody. And I think what is required I think is, ultimately, municipalities have had to get the word out saying you know we're in distress here. I'm not the only county without standing. And I think you saw a report from Rural Municipalities Alberta, up to 180-million dollars in outstanding fiscal taxes. That's a big deal to our municipalities.

CO: All right, that's the total one. Yours is at two-point-six. But tens-of-millions that are owed to all these municipalities. And what is the solution? If you could sit down with them and have that conversation, what do you think has to be done?

PM: Well, my personal opinion is, first of all, we understand how important the industry is to Alberta. I mean, you're looking at a 50-billion dollar gross revenue to the province. So definitely they're important. At the same time, there's also other players in this province that are important as well. The fact is is that I think, personally, everything should be done that if you're a good actor, you should be treated well. And I think that the regulator has the ability to actually determine good actors and bad actors by cleaning up your contamination, making sure you're operating, making sure a good community member, and paying your taxes. And if one of those indicators on an operator being allowed to have oil gas licenses whether they're stock that they've been keeping up or at least trying to pay their taxes. That to me is a good operator. As it exists right now, that information is not even not even visible at all to the regulator. So they don't know whether you're a good actor or a bad actor. And they're not looking at that information as they provide the ability for companies to have licenses to operate in the province.

CO: But if this is a tax revolt, and it's aimed at sort of forcing the hand of the assessor to change the way that this property is assessed, is that something that eventually you might have to accept?

PM: Oh, I definitely think it. You know, I'm not even a conspiracy theorist, for sure that's what's happening. Definitely, it needs to be revisited, the assessment model. It hasn't been revised for a long time. The previous government was supposed to do that. So for sure, and I think that, again, if it's fair and equitable, I think that municipalities are willing to you know to work together to find out what those numbers are and make sure that comes up with something that's important to our communities.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. McLauchlin, thank you.

PM: Well, thank you very much. Have a great day.

CO: You too. Bye-bye.

CH: Paul McLauchlin is the Reeve in Ponoka County, Alberta -- about 100 kilometres south of Edmonton. That's where we reached him. In response to municipalities' concerns about oil and gas companies' unpaid taxes this week, Alberta Premier Jason Kenney said, quote, "You can't wring money from a stone." Unquote.

[Music: Indie pop]

Debbie Palmer obit

CH: Her family and friends shamed shunned her for speaking out. But if it weren't for Debbie Palmer, we probably wouldn't know about the secretive, polygamous community living in Bountiful, British Columbia. Debbie Palmer, who was an activist and one of Bountiful's first child brides, died last weekend. She was 64. When she was just fifteen, Ms. Palmer became the sixth wife of Bountiful community leader Ray Blackmore. When she became a widow at 18, she was placed in another plural marriage to an abusive man. Then in 1988, she fled Bountiful with her eight children. And spoke out publicly against her former community. Back in 2006, she was a guest on As It Happens, after Warren Jeffs — leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — was arrested in Nevada. From our archives, here is part of her conversation with guest host Tom Harrington.

SOUNDCLIP

DEBBIE PALMER: He seems to be really pleasing to the women. I don't know what they see in him. I mean, he has a very hypnotic quality about him. And women will leave their husbands just if he snaps their fingers, they'll all leave their husbands and go and be married to him if he'll let them. He is talented as far as being able to compose music, and his qualities that way are rather unique and different. But he is extremely dangerous with his ability to educate children and create children that are willing to inform on and denounce their brothers and sisters, to denounce their fathers and mothers, and to just turn against every single person that they know. I mean, and create women who will denounce their husbands and their children even.

TOM HARRINGTON: What mistreatment and experiences abuses that you suffered when you were in his thrall? What did you go through?

DP: Well, I was never in his thrall.

TH: Right.

DP: He was never a leader when I it's still inside the community. His father was the prophet when I left the community. But the kinds of things that happened to women and children inside the community are you're supposed to be happy. You're supposed to keep sweet at all times. And if you aren't happy, then it's because you have been possessed by an evil spirit or you're guilty of some crime.

TM: What are some of the consequences of these alleged missteps?

DP: If you are guilty of missteps — especially if you're a man — you can lose your businesses, your wives, your children. Your “priested” it is what they call it, and all your chance of getting to the highest degree of celestial glory and becoming a god yourself you just become a non-person. And he tells you can go outside the community and work as hard as you can work to maybe get back into his good graces at some point. And maybe you'll get to have your priesthood back. But you won't get your wives back.

CH: From our archives, that was Debbie Palmer speaking with guest host Tom Harrington in 2006 on this program. Ms. Palmer, an activist and former member of the polygamist community in Bountiful, British Columbia died last weekend. She was 64.

[Music: Indie folk]

Ideas promo

CH: At the International Court of Justice in The Hague, The Gambia is charging Myanmar with the crime of genocide against the minority Muslim Rohingya people. Tomorrow, the court will make a ruling as to whether or not to proceed. And tonight on "Ideas" — after As It Happens — you'll hear excerpts from the original hearing in December. Here's the Attorney General of The Gambia, Abubacarr Tambadou, addressing the court in his opening statement.

SOUNDCLIP

ABUBACARR TAMBADOU: In early 2018, I visited the refugee camps in Bangladesh as part of a delegation of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation. As I listened to the stories of the refugees at the camp, I could smell the stench of genocide from across the border in Myanmar. Stories of helplessness in the face of mass killings, of mass rape, and mass torture, and of children being burnt alive in the sanctuary of their homes and places of worship. When I looked in the eyes of those refugees, as they recounted their devastating stories, I could see the looks of fear, of despair. The looks of victims of a modern day genocide. And so we ask the question: why? Why is the world standing by and allowing such horrors again in our lifetime? It is our collective humanity that is being put on trial.

CH: The Attorney General of The Gambia, Abubacarr Tambadou, addressing the International Court of Justice in The Hague. You can hear more on "Ideas", right after As It Happens, in an episode called "A Question of Genocide: the Rohingya Crisis".

[Music: Lively piano]

Harry and Meghan paparazzi

Guest: Miles Arsenault

CH: Miles Arsenault is new to the water taxi business. It was only six months ago that the retired photographer opened Bay to Bay Charters in North Saanich, British Columbia. The boat captain also offers private tours around Vancouver Island. But these days, Mr. Arsenault is turning away some business — and not because he doesn't need it. We reached Miles Arsenault in North Saanich.

CO: Miles, do you want to tell us about these people who wanted to go out on your boat last week? What made you suspicious about them?

MILES ARSENAULRT: I wasn’t suspicious at the beginning. Actually, I was quite excited. Anytime the phone rings, and wants to take me other than a charter, that’s money in my bank account. But when they arrived at the marina, I had asked them if the property that we were going to that they told me they had given me the address? Because I didn't know at that time it was Meghan's and Harry's private residence. But I asked him if this was involving them? And they admitted that it was. And at that point, I said you're going to have to hire yourself another water taxi company.

CO: Wow! And where were they from? Do you know what company?

MA: They're a Japanese television company.

CO: But you needed the business. So what was what it like for you to turn that down?

MA: To me, it was a two-hour job at one-hundred-fifty dollars an hour. And in starting my business, I knew there was going to be bumps and lumps along the way. And that I could absorb a loss of three-hundred dollars. It wasn't going to make or break the bank.

CO: Why did you do it? I mean, all you had to do is take me out in the boat and take them to where they wanted to be. You didn't have to yourself intrude on privacy or do anything. I was just a boat tour.

MA: Yeah, I guess you could look at it that way that it was just another job. But it's an invasion of privacy. And I don't want peeping toms if I'm sitting over my desk. I don't want it in my life. I understand they have a job to do. And you know I was a professional photographer of 25-30 years. I know what it is to get the shot — the money shot. And reporters, photographers, videographers, they need to make a living. But they're not going to make it on my boat.

CO: What do you think they could see from the water? Have you been to the area where Meghan and Harry have their residence? And do you have a sense of what you could actually see from there?

MA: Yeah, I've gone by the property. That was months ago, just as just about any waterfront home along our coast is magnificent to look at from the water, but even nicer to look at from the property looking out over the water. And you know they all kind of blend in. But you know using a telephoto lens from a being on a platform that is moving around with the ocean swells and winds and shooting through trees, and probably not much of a shot in my mind.

CO: [laughing] And you would know from having been a photographer that this is not going to work out too well.

MA: Yeah, yeah. You know, I know what it takes to get a shot. And that's probably the most difficult platform you could work from. I'd prefer, my favourite was aerial photography — nothing like hanging out of a helicopter with the door off. And for me, that was the best shot.

CO: What are people in North Saanich saying about your new neighbours?

MA: They just wish them nothing but the best in their new lives. They're so happy to have them in their neighbourhood. They hope to rub elbows with them you know in the line in the grocery store. My praise to them for stepping away, and you know thinking outside the box, so to speak. And making new lives.

CO: Have you been approached since that Japanese television crew, have you been approached any more times looking to go out in the boat?

MA: I have. And I’ve turned them away. I know that other water taxi operators are servicing the needs to the point that some of the launches have been from the marina that I have a slip in.

CO: How do you feel about that, given you're turning down the business, but you're losing out on these. And there's probably going to be a lot more?

MA: If that 300 dollars turns your crank, go for it. You know, I'm not going to lose any sleep over what they're doing.

CO: You know that we've heard that Meghan has been photographed walking with her baby in a park by people hiding in the bushes. You've had these requests. There's going to be others. How likely is it do you think that Harry and Meghan will have that peaceful life that you've described that the people North Saanich would like to see them have?

MA: There may be a photographer who has been sitting in the bush, in the rain, and the cold. And he finally gets the money shot. I guess good for him. If they were on the other side of the pond, there would have been a thousand of them in the bushes. They only had to deal with one photographer today [chuckle]. Yeah, I think it's still much better than where they're from.

CO: Miles, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

MA: Oh no, thank you. Happy to share my story.

CO: All right. Take care.

MA: Yep. Bye-bye.

CH: Miles Arsenault is the owner and captain of Bay to Bay Charters in North Saanich, B.C.

[Music: Guitar]

Terry Jones obit

CH: He played roles like "flasher," "saintly passer-by," "man with bendy arms," and "nude organist." The kind of roles you only get, or give yourself, when you're a member of Monty Python. But Terry Jones wasn't just part of the cast. He was also a principal writer on many of the troupe's sketches and feature length films — and the director of the three beloved classics, "The Holy Grail," "Life of Brian" and "The Meaning of Life." There's no telling whether he found it — the meaning of life, that is — but he undoubtedly came closer than most. Terry Jones died yesterday after a four-year battle with a rare form of dementia. He was 77 years old. In the words of his Monty Python cast-mate Michael Palin, Mr. Jones was, quote "one of the funniest writer-performers of his generation." In 1983, as Peter Gzowski's guest on "Morningside," Terry Jones talked about the troupe's approach to satire:

SOUNDCLIP

TERRYJONES: I think “The Meaning of Life” is outrageous. There's a lot of the stuff in it that I find is just I just think it's wonderful to actually see it on screen. We've never been able do it before. But there is a problem that people are now expecting us to be outrageous, and where as we're just doing it because it makes us laugh. People say oh, they're being outrageous. Well, of course, that's what they do. They're trying very hard to be outrageous. Now, we're trying hard to be outrageous. We’re just doing things that make us laugh, and not throwing things out and saying, well, can't do that.

PETER GZOWSKI: Is there social criticism implicit in Monty Python? Is there a python view of the world, or is that just that the world is nuts?

TJ: No, I mean, I think there's a social criticism insofar as I guess if you do anything seriously, and you put enough effort into it, something of your own views are going to come out I guess. I don’t know where there’s a positive side behind it in the end. I think Python is very much destructive. It looks at the world, and is rude about it. Whether there's you know like with Swift — with is a positive to the negative —maybe. I don’t know.

CH: The late Terry Jones, speaking with Peter Gzowski on "Morningside" in 1983. Mr. Jones died yesterday. He leaves behind a lifetime of unforgettable performances, including this one — as the mother of the man mistaken for the Messiah in Monty Python's "Life of Brian."

SOUNDCLIP

[A crowd cheers]

TJ: Now you listen here. He's not the Messiah. He’s a very naughty boy. Now go away.

CROWD: Who are you?

TJ: I’m his mother, that’s who.

[Crowd chants]

TJ: Now don’t think you can get around me like that. He's not coming out. And that's my final word. Now shove off.

CROWD: No.

TJ: Did you hear what I said?

CROWD: Yes.

TJ: Oh, I see. It’s like that, is it?

CROWD: Yes.

TJ: Oh, alright the. You can see him for one minute, but not one second more. Do you understand?

CROWD: Yes

TJ: Promise?

CROWD: Well, alright.

TJ: Alright. Here he is then. Come on, Brian come and talk to them.

GRAHAM CHAPMAN: But Mum, Judith

TJ: No, leave that Welsh tart alone

GC: No, I don’t really want to, Mum.

H: That's Terry Jones as Mandy Cohen — aka the mother of Brian Cohen — aka the young Jewish man who just happens to be born on the same day as Jesus Christ in Monty Python's "Life of Brian." Terry Jones directed that film, and many others. And he was one of the founding members of Monty Python. Mr. Jones died yesterday in London.

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January 22, 2019 episode transcipt

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