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The AIH Transcript for January 21, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

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CH: Tonight...

CO: A national travesty. That's how Canada's prison system ombudsman describes the state of Canada's prisons, where Indigenous inmates now represent 30 percent of the total population.

CH: Rights for everyone. A Chinese political dissident has surprising words for his son and daughter, he wants them to use their Canadian law degrees to help the Chinese government's cause celebre -- Meng Wanzhou. And he gave them that instruction from inside a Chinese prison.

CO: The journalist and the justice department. Reporter, Glenn Greenwald has been charged with cyber-crimes by Brazilian authorities. His colleague at The Intercept Brazil tells us the accusations of bogus.

CH: Fire and ice. Three men survive a frigid Yukon night at 50 below by setting their vehicle on fire -- by the time trucker Yves Lafond found them, they were so cold they were moving like robots.

CO: Digging out. People in parts of Newfoundland are finally getting out of their houses after that mammoth blizzard, and most of them are headed straight for, you guessed it, the grocery store.

CH: And sense and centenary. British Columbia's oldest practicing lawyer just marks her 100th birthday. Her secret to a long life: keep working, keep smiling, and keep breathing. Because as she points out, there's hardly anyone alive now who's not breathing. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that loves to celebrate an oxygen-arian.

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Part 1: Soaring rates of Indigenous people in prison 'unacceptable,' says federal watchdog

Indigenous prison report

Guest: Ivan Zinger

CH: Canada's Indigenous populations make up about 5 percent of the country's population. And yet, according to a new report by Ivan Zinger, the correctional investigator of Canada, 30 percent of inmates in federal prisons are Indigenous. That's up from 25 percent only four years ago. And Mr. Zinger says that is a national travesty. We reached Ivan Zinger in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Zinger, you are already sounding the alarm four years ago. What do you make of this rapid increase?

IVAN ZINGER: Well, it's been a steady increase, and certainly it seems to be accelerating. And the trend that we've been observing is that when there is a man or a woman who are non-Indigenous leave the penitentiary, that person, he or she has been replaced by an Indigenous man or woman. I find that is, in my view, unacceptable.

CO: So is this increase of percentage of Indigenous people in the system, is it because there are just fewer people? They're just a bigger percentage of that. Or are the actual numbers of Indigenous people in prison going up?

IZ: So we have about 14,000 men and women who were incarcerated at the federal level. So that has remained stable for the last four years. But the profile of the inmate population has changed. And we see more and more a larger proportion of Indigenous people being incarcerated.

CO: And larger numbers of Indigenous people incarcerated.

IZ: Yes, absolutely.

CO: Another alarming number is 42 percent of the female population is Indigenous at this point. What do you make of that?

IZ: Well, again, it means that our policy upstreams aren't working. So I think it speaks to inequality on how the Indigenous communities are benefiting from socio-economic rights, cultural rights, political rights, Indigenous rights. In many ways, we can take the profile of the prison population and use it as a barometer to gage the success or failure of our broad public policies. So something is broken.

CO: What do you think it is? What do you think is broken?

IZ: Well, you know, I think we had, you know, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we had the inquiry into the Murdered and Missing Indigenous women that gave us lots of clues as what's broken. When it comes to the administration of sentences, it's just not working. You know, Indigenous offenders remain longer in jail than non-Indigenous offenders. They're more likely to be housed in higher security where there are fewer programs. They are more likely to be subject to use of force, to place in segregation, or now into the new structured intervention units. They're more likely to have their parole suspended or revoked. And these are all things that corrections have control over. And the correctional outcomes are terrible. And the recidivism rates, for example, in the prairies for Indigenous is over 70 percent. So it's a revolving door and correction isn't contributing to public safety in the way that it should. And certainly based on the large investment that Canada is making on federal corrections.

CO: You note in your report that the CSC, Corrections Services Canada, their argument is that they are the back end of this system -- as it's described. And that they're receiving people who have gone through the justice system, but they have nothing to do with how the Indigenous population ends up in the system. What do you say to that?

IZ: You know, I think it's true they have no control over admissions -- so who is sent to prison and for how long. However, it's supposed to offer rehabilitative services that would reduce the risk of reoffending. You know, issues like providing services for mental health, addiction, trying to de-affiliate people who are involved in gangs, et cetera. And with respect to Indigenous, we're not getting the lower rates of reoffending that we deserve based on the investment.

CO: You say in the report that the CSC has tweaked the system to make improvements. But you say it needs dramatic change. Can you give us some examples of the dramatic changes you'd like to see the government implement?

IZ: Well, corrections is exceptionally well resourced. So it's a ratio of one for one. So for every prisoners, there's one employee of corrections. We actually have 37 percent of our penitentiaries that have more employees than inmates. Those are staggering numbers. And if we are going to spend that kind of money, we do need to get outstanding correctional outcome. So what my organization, as well as the commissions on Truth and Reconciliation, the Murder and Missing Indigenous women inquiry, parliamentary committees, have all suggested that to reallocate a significant portion of the services resources to fund Indigenous communities and groups to provide for the care, custody, and supervision of Indigenous people.

CO: Those recommendations -- and you have the manure report talking about having a deputy commissioner of Indigenous corrections, enhance the role of Indigenous elders, depend on the communities to help the offenders get back on track. These are suggestions that have been around for a long time. So why does it take so long to see that actually become a reality?

IZ: I don't know. I was quite hopeful in 2015 when the Liberal government came into power and issued mandate letters pointing in the right direction. Yet the bureaucracy did not move. And I think that's what is, for me, disappointing. Because now we have our political leaders that are giving marching orders to a department and the department isn't taking the necessary steps to make that political will become a reality. You know, four years later, we moved from 25 percent to 30 percent and a reoffending rate that is off the chart and unacceptable.

CO: Mr. Zinger I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

IZ: I appreciate it Carol. Thank you.

CH: Ivan Zinger is the correctional investigator of Canada. We reached him in Ottawa.

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Greenwald charges

Guest: Andrew Fishman

CH: Months ago, Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro mused that journalist Glenn Greenwald, could, quote, "do jail time." And today, that prediction came one step closer to coming true. The co-founder of The Intercept Brazil was charged with cyber-crimes and accused of being part of a criminal organization. Mr. Greenwald became a target for Brazilian authorities after publishing a series of stories based on recordings and cellphone messages that were anonymously leaked. And those leaked messages related to a former judge, Sergio Moro, who headed a high profile corruption investigation. Mr. Moro is now the Brazilian Minister of Justice. Andrew Fishman is the managing editor of The Intercept Brazil. We reached him in Rio de Janeiro.

CO: Andrew, how did Glenn Greenwald react when you heard about these charges?

ANDREW FISHMAN: Well, I mean, we've been expecting something like this to happen for a very long time. We were hoping maybe (that) we were in the clear by now. But I mean, Glenn is a hard-nosed fighter. This is not the first time that he's dealt with the government coming after him for his journalism. So I think he just got very focused and was immediately figuring out how to change the narrative and make sure that it was clear that the lies that they're putting out -- that no one was buying them. That no one was believing it.

CO: So he's been charged with cyber-crimes and he's been accused of being part of a criminal organization. Is he in custody?

AF: No, he's not in custody. The prosecutors have made these charges. It still needs to go to a judge. And the judge still needs to either accept or reject the charges before it can go forward and he can be formally indicted. However, this prosecutor just recently made another very famous set of charges against the head of the Brazilian Bar Association for supposedly making statements against the honor of this judge, Sergio Moro. And that was thrown out by the judge as not having any grounds. So we hope and expect that this case will as well. Because the federal police have already evaluated all the information that was used in these charges. And they already came into the decision in December that there was no evidence of any crime or improper behavior on Glenn's part or in any of our colleagues part.

CO: What is it based on? Do you know? Have you seen anything that tells you what the arrest is based on?

AF: Yeah, the federal police and the public minister are separate bodies. They are not overseen by the same authorities. So it's slightly different than it is in the United States, for example. They confiscated the computers of these alleged hackers who were alleged of hacking public authorities in Brazil last year. And on one of the hard drives there was a conversation that they say is between Glenn and one of the alleged hackers. And in it, they asked him that they need to keep the information that they sent to him, that they allegedly sent to him. And he allegedly says, well, we have it all downloaded so I don't see any reason why you would. It's a paraphrase, but it is the same. And that -- the federal police, saw, looked at, and they said that this is not a crime. This is protected under the constitution because the secrecy of a journalist and source relationship is protected by the Brazilian constitution under the freedom of the press. The public ministry came back and reviewed the same information and came to a different conclusion. And our belief is that this is politically motivated as a way to come at us, because the justice minister is one of the main targets of our reporting over the last six-seven months or so.

CO: Can you just briefly describe what it is? What the case is? Because the hacking -- people were arrested last year in the summer. But the hack was part of stories that you told about this particular operation, Car Wash. Can you tell us what the case was that's behind this and who was it about?

AF: Sure. The Intercept Brazil in early last year received a huge trove of private conversations between prosecutors from the Operation Car Wash and judges and some related individuals. And this operation was the biggest anti-corruption investigation in the history of Brazil. Many of their accusations are true. And many of those things did happen. However, there's always been this suspicion and there's always been evidence that that the that Operation Car Wash prosecutors and the judge Sergio Moro, who is now the justice minister, were playing fast and loose with the rules, they were avoiding certain procedures, and they clearly had a political bias against the Workers' Party of Lula da Silva -- who at the time, was the leading presidential candidate. And one of the most controversial convictions that they were able to achieve was against ex-President Lula who at the time was the leading candidate for the 2018 presidential election. With his conviction, he was made an eligible for the race. And because of that, Jair Bolsonaro was made the president of the country. He won the election. And within a few days he nominated, Sergio Moro, the judge who put Lula in jail, to be his justice minister. Which in the chats we see even his colleagues in the public ministry were appalled by -- this is going to give credence to the argument that we've been politically motivated the whole time. But in our reporting, we showed that there was a clear political motivation. They were clearly opposed to Lula becoming president and worked hard to make sure that he would not be able to be eligible.

CO: You know that President Bolsonaro's son has said that Mr. Greenwald, if he loves Brazil so much, he should get to know it in prison. The president has made a number of remarks about Mr. Greenwald and about your news agency and about journalism in general, calling it poison. Do you think that there is any direction for this arrest today coming from the office of the president?

AF: Well, the public ministry is officially an independent entity. The president cannot directly order it, nor can the justice minister, Moro, directly order this. However, it's based on the most recent charges that this prosecutor filed. It is clear that he has a certain alliance or inclination towards Bolsonaro's world view -- and you know went out of his way to defend Moro. It's clearly part of this push against the press that Bolsonaro is incentivizing and spearheading. And, you know, it's the same as it is with the case with Trump in the United States. Trump opens the doors and his followers and his people who believe in his vision, follow along and continue in the same way. You don't need to directly order each individual operation. I think that this is clearly only existing because we are in the Bolsonaro era in Brazil, where freedom of the press and in many other civil rights are under attack daily.

CO: Andrew, we will leave it there. Thank you.

AF: Thank you.

CH: Andrew Fishman is the managing editor of The Intercept Brazil. We reached him in Rio de Janeiro.

[Music]

Newfoundland Snow

CH: After five days of lockdown, people in St. John's, Newfoundland, were eager to finally get out and get some groceries. And it seemed that almost every single person had the same idea. Pat Griffin made the drive from Torbay. Here's how he described the scene to CBC host Ramona Dearing.

SOUNDCLIP

PAT GRIFFIN: I made the mistake of going out to Dominion and Stavanger Drive. And the store opened at 10 am exactly. And I was out at 9. And it was probably about 100-150 people ahead of me, I guess. So the door was open. And everybody just, you know, the way they go -- they took off. I got in the store. I was only there for milk and bread. No big deal. The bread was gone just like that. I mean the lineup at the bread, you just couldn't get through the crowd. And then I said I'd better go for the milk. So I went down there and there is one liter of milk left in the corner. So I lay my hand to take it, and this other guy's hand comes in too. And he's grabbed it, and he said "That's mine." And I looked at him and he is much bigger than me -- and I said to hell with it, take it. I'll go find a cow milker [laughter].

RAMONA DEARING: Were you joking with him or were you offended?

PAT GRIFFIN: Oh no. I was joking with him. But he had a look on his face that he was having that milk. So I'm not going to deal with that. That's okay. Take it. There's milk somewhere else. I went to get in the lineup, you know, the way it gets there. Everybody is just going home everywhere. And the line goes right down through the aisles and it goes in like a horseshoe shape. So I thought this was the beginning of the line and I stepped into it. And the guy tapped me right fast. And he said "The line starts back there." I said "Okay boss." [Laughter] So I went back to where he was talking about. So the next thing, there's a guy there from the Dominion, he's a Dominion employee. And he said there's going to be a five hour wait to get to the cash. I said, to hell with this. So I left. [Laughter]

RAMONA DEARING: So after all that, you came away empty handed?

PAT GRIFFIN: I came away empty handed.

CH: And lineups for groceries weren't the only obstacle either. Residents are still digging their way through mountains of snow. Carolann Harris is relieved to see most of the snow finally cleared from her driveway. She donated her kidney to her husband last month, and they've both been on bed rest.

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CAROLANN HARRIS: We had no idea it was going to get this bad. And we have a 14 year old that's done the best he could. But it was just way too much snow. And we weren't 100 percent sure if an ambulance needed to get here, if we were even going to be able to get an ambulance close enough to the house. So I put out a request for help with the city and woke up this morning hearing shovels going. And when we looked out, there was a team of Canadian Force members shoveling our driveway. It took them about an hour and 45 minutes. And it was amazing. They formed a chain and they had a system going and they got it out in no time. I can go to bed tonight knowing if something happens to my husband [chokes up] an ambulance can get close enough to my house to get him out. He's 6 foot 5. And to carry him through any amount of snow, it's just not doable. It seems so minuscule to shovel someone's driveway [cries] but there's no words to even say. To be able to go to bed knowing that if something happens, we can safely and quickly can get him help or myself help. It's not as high risk as it was when we woke up this morning.

CH: That's Carolann Harris, a relieved St. John's resident, after seeing the snow cleared from her driveway thanks to the Army. And Ms. Harris is not the only Newfoundlander in need of a helping hand after the storm. Last night we heard from Cathy White, a woman in Portugal Cove, who believes she narrowly avoided hypothermia over the weekend after the power went out, leaving her in the cold with just a propane heater. And after that, Marja Eloheimo from Olympia, Washington, sent us this email. She wrote, "You left your listeners wondering what happened to the woman who was running out of propane with 10 feet of snow around her house. She had been trying to get through to the number that was offered to her for getting help. And then the story ended. I'm worried about her. Please update. Thank you." Well Marja, as of today, Ms. White still hasn't gotten through to that number. But a pair of good Samaritans got through to her today, and cleared the path to her propane tank so it can be filled. Just one of many acts of kindness taking place after the storm this week.

[Music]

Victoria lawyer turns 100

Guest: Constance Isherwood

CH: When you're looking for a lawyer, you look for someone with a lot of experience. And Constance Isherwood has got that. In fact, she's probably got the most experience. Ms. Isherwood is BC's longest serving lawyer. And on Sunday, she turned 100 years old. We reached her in Victoria, British Columbia.

CO: Constance, first of all, happy belated birthday.

CONSTANCE ISHERWOOD: Thank you.

CO: How was that celebration?

CI: Well, we had much celebration here together with a church service and champagne lunch, if you please. [Laughs]

CO: It sounds more like it was the festival of Constance Isherwood.

CI: [Laughs] Well, I really feel I've been celebrating all weekend.

CO: So what do you make of being 100? I mean, is it the new 70?

CI: It certainly feels younger than 100. I am not quite sure what 100 supposed to feel like. [Laughter] But I think back at 90 and 80 and 70 -- it doesn't seem to be much different.

CO: Well, I mean, for a lot of people, by the time they're even those ages, they've stopped working. And you're still going to work each morning at 100 years old. What keeps you going? Why do you want to keep your job as a lawyer?

CI: The practice of law is very intriguing, of course. And the clients that you meet are people you want to help. So that keeps you interested. And of course, going to work keeps your body active and mind active, which is a good thing at any age.

CO: What kind of law do you like to practise? What areas most intrigue you?

CI: Well, it's called general civil law, which means a little bit of everything except criminal. I never went in for criminal law much. I left that for the boys to do. And I did a bit of everything else.

CO: You know, when you go back, you went into law school in the 1940s, right?

CI: Yes.

CO: That was a time where a lot of women wanted careers. They wanted to get into these professions. And it was difficult, wasn't it? How does it compare now to what you went through when you were starting in the field?

CI: It is entirely different now. The numbers of women in law have increased so much. For myself, I was fortunate in that, prior to going to law school, I had been a legal secretary. And when I graduated I was able to return to the same office. I do feel that I was lucky in that respect.

CO: Because other women encountered a lot of discrimination, a lot of sexism. It was it was a tough tough...

CI: That is true. Many of them found it difficult. I think that has changed through the years.

CO: I understand also the time you went into law school when you were a secretary, you're actually considering another career in music. Can you tell us about that?

CI: I was a member of an all-girl orchestra in which I played the drums. And also I thought, I enjoy singing, but I stayed with the law.

CO: Okay. How did you make that decision? Sounds like it would have been a lot of fun to be in the band.

CI: Well, yes, it would. In fact, I had a session of touring with the band. I think that was a good learning experience because you find that being on the road every day isn't all it's cracked up to be. [Laughter] The law, on the other hand, seems to have something different every day. Again, the clients and the sales are different.

CO: And you married a lawyer?

CI: I did. This was a young man that I met at law school. We were in the same class together. In time, we were married and established a law partnership.

CO: This is Holmes & Isherwood.

CI: That's right. Holmes was my maiden name. In fact, my husband used to say, "oh, she always wanted to be first." [Laughter]

CO: There's something else that is intriguing about the way you work is that you're not into any of the new technology. Not even old technology. No computers. You use a typewriter, you use landlines. What's all that about?

CI: Well, we do have an electric adding machine and we have an electric typewriter. [Chuckles] And I thought we were really getting quite modern. [Laughter] However, I do realize that the computer age is upon us and is very valuable in a law office. And as time went along, my son became my computer man.

CO: Are you going to keep on doing this? Is it any thought of retiring? Any plans for the future?

CI: Well, as far as retirement goes, I've always said, "well, maybe next year. Maybe next year." But now that I'm a hundred, I don't know whether that answer is quite suitable.

CO: Okay, so what advice do you give to people? Because people much much younger than you are feeling old and crotchety and leaving for retirement and sort of giving up on things. What's your advice?

CI: Well, I always say three things: Keep breathing. That's so very important. There's hardly anybody in the world who is alive now, who is not breathing. Number two is: Keep working. And I find that having worked through all the years, that helps to keep you young. And then number three is: Keep smiling. The person who wrote: when you are smiling, the whole world smiles with you. He knew what he was talking about.

CO: Constance it is great advice. And I wish you many many more happy birthdays. Thanks for speaking with us.

CI: Thank you. It has been a pleasure.

CH: Constance Isherwood turned 100 on Sunday, and continues to practice law in Victoria, BC. And you can find more about Ms. Isherwood on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

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Part 2: Meng prosecution: Chinese dissident's son

Meng prosecution: Chinese dissident's son

Guest: Times Wang

CH: China has been holding Wang Bingzhang behind bars for nearly 20 years. But last year, the Canadian educated dissident told his children that they should go to work for a woman the Chinese government appears to hold dear. Mr. Wang's son and daughter both hold Canadian law degrees. The woman he suggested they use those degrees to help is Meng Wanzhou. Ms. Meng is the Chinese Huawei executive who's being held in Vancouver on a US extradition request. Her arrest was followed by China's jailing of two Canadians, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. Times Wang is Wang Bingzhang's son. And we reached him in Norfolk, Virginia.

CO: Mr. Wang, can you describe where your father was when he suggested to you that you should join Meng Wanzhou's legal team?

TIMES WANG: We were in a prison interview room in Shaoguan, China. And we were speaking to each other across soundproof glass and steel bars over a plastic phone.

CO: We're talking about this senior executive of Huawei -- why would your father think that you should do that? What was his reason for that?

TW: Well, to him, it exemplified his belief in what a commitment to human rights and the rule of law means, which is that you stand up for them, even if doing so would benefit your erstwhile enemy.

CO: This is a man who has been for 20 years in prison in China. He is a democracy activist. He has been fighting for his rights for all those decades. And yet he still believes that Meng Wanzhou deserves that kind of assistance from the law.

TW: Absolutely. Absolutely. And his belief goes beyond just Meng. But he has written in his pro-democracy work that people who really believe in democracy, their number one task, when the Communist Party falls from power, the number one task is to make sure that the human rights of the departing officials is also protected.

CO: You're a lawyer in the States. Your sister is about to become a lawyer. She's just finished her articling. And you're visiting your father in a prison in China. He was picked up by Chinese agents when he was visiting Vietnam in 2002. And you've seen him not able to enjoy any kind of rights. What kind of shape is your dad in at this point?

TW: He's doing as well as one can be expected to do under the circumstances. But he did say to me on a recent visit that, you know, mentally he is staying very strong. And I think, you know, his suggestion to us that we join Ms. Meng's defense team also illustrates that his spirit has been not broken. And to us, that is a key when dealing with an authoritarian bully like the Communist Party, because that's what they want. They want to break your spirit. And so the only way to really guarantee that you come out of an experience with the Communist Party ahead and with your dignity intact is to hold fast to your principles the way he has.

CO: You know, your father is aware that there are these two men, these two Canadians, Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, who are in prison in China. We don't know what conditions they are in. And we get very little information. And it appears that they're held hostage in order to get Meng Wanzhou out of the legal system in Canada. Is your father aware of that?

TW: I'm sure he is. Although you should know that, you know, obviously he's only going to be allowed to read what passes the great firewall and the Communist Party's censorship. He may not even be aware of that. I'm not sure.

CO: There have been suggestions and I'm sure you've seen some of them that the way out of this is for those two Canadians to be exchanged.

TW: Absolutely. I have several thoughts on that. So I read Mr. Goldenberg's op ed over the weekend.

CO: This is Eddie Goldenberg, we interviewed him last week. He is one of the latest person to say that the way out of this is to have some sort of a prisoner exchange between these two parties. Right.

TW: So I disagree. Because I think he was right that if the Trudeau government were to intervene and order that Ms. Meng be released, that would certainly increase the chance that the two Michaels are released. But that would also significantly increase the chance that the Communist Party does something like this again. You know, and he's also right that the price to be paid for standing on principle is that the two Michaels might have to suffer for. To that, I would say -- well, indeed. But what are principles worth if you abandon them when it would be painful to stick to them? And so, you know, I still think that the only way Canada really comes out of the situation ahead, if it adheres to its principles, that's the only way Canada comes out. Because I think if Canada gives in to the Communist Party, what Canada is in effect saying is that we don't actually have any principles, that we're willing to suffer for.

CO: And what kind of a victory would that be for the government of China if Canada were to make that kind of an exchange? What would that say to them?

TW: It would be a huge moral victory. It would say to them that, you know what? All this talk about human rights, democracy, freedom, rule of law, all of it is empty rhetoric. We don't actually believe it. You know that might truly does equal right.

CO: What would your father have to do in order to get out of prison in China?

TW: Well, one thing that he could do that would significantly increase his chances is to confess to the crimes, the absurd crimes, he's been accused of. Crimes that he's already been exonerated of by government officials and other countries. You know, but that's a price that he thinks, and that we agree, is too high to pay.

CO: So it's an interesting parallel. He's standing on principle. If he capitulates and he loses that. And you're saying Canada has to stand on principle too.

TW: Right. So, you know, for him by standing on principle, the price of maintaining his dignity is continued imprisonment. That's for him personally. And the price of Canada adhering to principle may very well be that it will be sometime before the two Michaels are able to come home.

CO: Mr. Wang we will leave it there. I appreciate speaking with you.

TW: All right. Thank you. I appreciate it.

CO: I hope you get to see your father again soon.

TW: Thank you.

CH: Times Wang is the son of Chinese political prisoner Wang Bingzhang. We reached Time's Wang in Norfolk, Virginia.

[Music]

Francois-Phillippe Champagne

CH: Francois-Phillippe Champagne is keeping things diplomatic. But Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister does sound like he's losing patience with Iran. Iranian authorities have so far failed to hand over the flight recorders from Flight PS 752. That's despite repeated requests from Canada and other countries that lost citizens when Iranian missiles brought that plane down. This afternoon in Winnipeg reporters asked Minister Champagne what leverage his government really has.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCOIS-PHILLIPPE CHAMPAGNE: The leverage we have, I would say, is with respect the fact that the world is watching Iran. We have made demand which are very specific. We expect the black box to be sent in accordance with Annex 13 of the International Civil Aviation Convention. It says without delay. There's been a number of days now. We understand that there are few countries in the world which have the expertise and technical capabilities to read the black box. And I think in the spirit of transparency and the spirit of accepting full responsibility, which Iran has done already, the next logical step is for the world community to be able to see what's the content of the black box. And so yesterday the prime minister has spoken this morning. I spoke to the my colleagues of the International Coordination and Response Group. To stress that we issued a statement, again, saying that obviously we would want to see the black box going quickly, either to Kiev or to France, which we understand has the capability, because the black box, the latest that I've heard, would be damage. So you need a certain amount of expertise and technical equipment in order to do that. And in the spirit of transparency, Iran should be proceeding quickly. So the leverage we have is the international community. All eyes are looking at the Iran now. Iran has a path to choose. The path of cooperation, transparency, accountability, and justice. That's what the families want. And we're going to stand up for families at every step of the way.

CH: Francois-Phillippe Champagne told reporters that the remains of one victim from Flight PS 752 have now been returned to Canada, with others expected to follow in the days to come. Then he was asked about reports that in some cases, Iranian authorities are refusing to respect the wishes of families whose loved ones held dual Iranian and Canadian citizenship.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCOIS-PHILLIPPE CHAMPAGNE: Based on the latest information that I've received through our consular officials, because this is a very dynamic situation, a very fluid situation. Every time that I receive an allegation that the wishes of the family would not have been respected, we are taking these allegations seriously. We are investigating with our team on the ground and with Iranian authorities. But based on the information that I have from our consular officials, which are working with the families, those which are the consular officials in touch with the 57 Canadian and 29 permanent resident, the latest information I've received is that the wishes of the family have been respected.

CH: That was Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Francois-Phillippe Champagne speaking in Winnipeg this afternoon.

[Music]

Yukon trucker rescue

Guest: Yves Lafond

CH: Yves Lafond was behind the wheel of his transport truck last week traveling the lonely Klondike Highway. It was early in the morning, a brutal -50 degrees outside. And pitch black. Pretty typical trip for the Yukon trucker until he turned the corner and saw the flames. We reached Yves Lafond in Whitehorse.

CO: Yves what was your gut feeling when you first saw those flames in the side of the highway?

YVES LAFOND: Well, it looked like a vehicle on fire and it turned out it was a vehicle on fire. I didn't see any other vehicle. And I thought, well, if there's no other vehicle taking care of it, that means I'm the first one. I'm the only one here. And as I slowed down slowly because it's cold there and you can't just jump on the brake because you lose the vehicle. And I thought, okay, where's the driver? And I thought, man I hope he's not in the vehicle, because I don't feel like looking at that this morning. And as I passed by, like stopping slowly, I saw three men on the other side. And my thought was, oh, there are people and there are not in flames. Good.

CO: Okay. So what you could see was a car on fire, and it was dark. But you could also see people outside the car so that gave you hope that people had survived whatever happened to the car.

YL: Yeah. Yeah.

CO: OK. We're talking about a temperature of -50 degrees, right?

YL: That's what I learned after. But in my truck was seeing -45. But by then I knew my thermometer was not going lower than -45. It's a new truck that I'm driving.

CO: I don't think there's much difference between -45 and -50. It's cold. {Laughter] You were able to stop the truck, hoping the wheels wouldn't lock. And then what did you find when you got out and checked on those people?

YL: So I stopped not that much further than the vehicle. And guys, I guess they found energy. [Chuckles] They don't want to miss that truck. So they found the energy. Like right away they were by my truck. I opened the door, and well climbing in the truck was another story.

CO: Why so? What was the problem with getting them into the truck?

YL: Well, first of all, it's not a car. It's a little bit harder. But the first guy was trying to climb, but he was moving like a robot. And the second guy said "Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. Let's go in the truck."

CO: Well, they were frozen, right? What condition were they in Yves at that point? What did you see about them?

YL: Actually, their face, yeah, was frozen. But that guy was bad. Like under his eyes, he had a pocket of water, you know, like from a burn. But the worst is -- he asked the other guy in the bunk to take off his boots, help him to take off his boots. And like he was screaming in that procedure. Yeah. He was screaming. And I couldn't imagine what he was feeling.

CO: How long had they been outside since they went off the road?

YL: They figured they were there since at 10:00 the night before.

CO: And what time was it then when you picked them up?

YL: Around 7:30 in the morning. And you've got to understand here, 7:30 in the morning is still middle of the night. There's not even a sign that the sun will rise.

CO: What did they tell you about why the car was on fire?

YL: First he started to walk and after a few minutes decided no not a good idea. And I heard that before. In the extreme cold, you start walking, you lose energy.

CO: So when you say this is that once they went into the ditch, one guy decided he was going to start walking for help. Is that right?

YL: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Then he said, well, try to find a signal for the phone. That didn't work either. And they were with that option, make a fire. But I don't know. Around there, there was lots of snow. As he got in the bush he had snow up to his thigh. And he felt snow going in his boots. And that's when he realized, not a good idea either. So they kept basically walking around all night. He saw the sign of a [inaudible] and he told a guy they had like some kind of a quick meeting. He said, no, in the scenario of life and death, it is here right now. His plan was set the truck on fire. And he said, okay.

CO: They set it on fire to keep warm -- to get warm.

YL: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. To get out of hypothermia.

CO: But also that's how you were able to see them because of that fire of the vehicle.

YL: Yeah. Yeah.

CO: We've spoken with one of them. We know that they're okay. We think that one fellow who couldn't feel his foot that may be a real problem.

YL: At one point, I said he might lose a toe. And he said, yeah, I might drink the sour toe cocktail from my own toe. Because in Dawson City people that freeze a toe, when they cut it, they bring it to the downtown bar in Dawson City and...[chuckles].

CO: We know this story. We know about the sour toe cocktail. So as far as we know, these guys are okay. If you hadn't come along, they wouldn't be okay.

YL: I think within another hour someone else would have passed because we were in the morning. But traffic is not dense. It's not 401 I tell you.

CO: [Chuckles] Yves I'm glad you were there. And gosh, thanks for saving them. Thanks for speaking with us.

YL: Okay. Bye bye.

CH: Yves Lafond is a truck driver. We reached him in Whitehorse.

[Music]

Ozzy Osbourne

CH: Ozzy Osbourne is ready to get back on the road. But first, he wants to explain why he's been missing. Ozzy hasn't performed since New Year's Eve 2018, which led to speculation that he was seriously ill or even on his deathbed. But this past October, he posted a video explaining that he was not dying. And today, he and his wife, Sharon, appeared on "Good Morning America" to put the rumors of his demise to rest. They revealed that he's been diagnosed with a form of Parkinson's disease. But he says he's eager to perform again. Here are Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne speaking with host Robin Roberts.

SOUNDCLIP

OZZY OSBOURNE: It has been terribly challenging for us. I did my last show on New Year's Eve at The Forum. Then I had a ball fall. I had to have surgery on my neck, which screwed all my nerves. And I found out that I have a mild form of...

SHARON OSBOURNE: It's PRKN 2. Which is a form of Parkinson's. It's not a death sentence by any stretch of the imagination, but it does affect certain nerves in your body. And it's like you have a good day -- a good day -- and then a really bad day.

ROBIN ROBERTS: It's not easy to be so transparent. You've always been an open book.

OZZY OSBOURNE: I'm no good with secrets. I can't walk around with it anymore because it's like I'm running out of excuses.

ROBIN ROBERTS: How, Sharon, have you been able to keep such a brave face through all of this?

SHARON OSBOURNE: I have to be there for Ozzy and for the family, because if I break down and then their dad, it's like, no, no, you can't. Can't do it. You just can't do it.

ROBIN ROBERTS: Why are you crying right now?

SHARON OSBOURNE: [Chokes up] Because it just means so much to him what he does. He loves to perform. It is the air that he breathes. And this is the longest he's ever been home. And it's time for him to get back on the road because he's driving me mad. [Chuckles] So he really needs to get back out there.

OZZY OSBOURNE: I just can't wait to get well and off you go on the road again.

CH: Ozzy Osbourne and his wife Sharon speaking on Good Morning America. The rock star has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.

[Music]

Greta Thunberg

CH: It's not easy these days to be an optimist about the climate. And yet today, one beacon of hope spoke out at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland: US President Donald Trump. He told the world's business elite to stop listening to, quote, "the perennial prophets of doom and their predictions of the apocalypse." He then boasted about America's economic growth. He was no doubt taking aim at climate activists like Greta Thunberg, who he once urged to "chill." The Swedish teenager is also in Davos. She pointed to the science indicating that carbon emissions, which hit a record high last year, need to be reduced by half in the next decade to avert the worst effects of climate change. Here's part of her speech today.

SOUNDCLIP

GRETA THUNBERG: One year ago, I came to Davos and told you that our house is on fire. I said I want to you to panic. I've been warned that telling people to panic about the climate crisis is a very dangerous thing to do. But don't worry, it's fine. Trust me, I've done this before, and I can assure you it doesn't lead to anything. And for the record, why would children tell you to panic? We're not telling you to go on like before. We're not telling you to offset your emissions by just paying someone else to plant trees in places like Africa, while at the same time forests like the Amazon are being slaughtered as an infinitely higher rate. Planting trees is good, of course, but it's nowhere near enough of what is needed and it cannot replace real mitigation and rewinding nature. And let's be clear, we don't need a low carbon economy. We don't need to lower emissions. Our emissions have to stop, if we are to have a chance to stay below the one point five degree target. You say children shouldn't worry. You say just leave this to us. We will fix this. We promise we won't let you down. Don't be so pessimistic. And then...nothing. Silence. Or something worse than silence: empty words and promises which give the impression that sufficient action is being taken. I wonder what will you tell your children was the reason to fail and leave them facing a climate chaos that you knowingly brought upon them? That it seems so bad for the economy that we decided to resign the idea of securing future living conditions without even trying. Our house is still on fire. Your inaction is fueling the flames by the hour. And we are telling you to act as if you loved your children above all else.

CH: Activist Greta Thunberg speaking earlier today at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

[Music]

Part 3: How to make sure a restored Notre-Dame Cathedral gets the acoustics right

Ten Thousand Villages closing

Guest: Rick Cober Bauman

CH: In the 1940s, Edna Ruth Byler had a simple idea: to pay people a fair price for their work. That idea eventually grew into Ten Thousand Villages. A chain of stores that sells handcrafted fair-trade products by artisans from more than 35 countries around the world. The first Canadian store opened 48 years ago. But this year, the chain will be closing most of its Canadian stores and shutting down its online store. Rick Cober Bauman is the national executive director of the Mennonite Central Committee Canada, which operates Ten Thousand Villages Canada. We reached him in Shakespeare, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Cober Bauman why is Ten Thousand Villages Canada closing most of its stores?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: It's a difficult decision, as you can appreciate something we've worked at for many years. We've had some excellent years of selling fair-traded handicrafts here in Canada. But for the last number of years, with all the disruption in retail, we simply couldn't keep this model going. We tried to grow our online sales and our wholesale contracts. But in the end, what needed to at least break even simply hasn't been for a number of years. And that's what led us to make this tough decision.

CO: I guess this last Christmas is what finally told you that.

RICK COBER BAUMAN: Yes, we had a sustainability plan and this was the second year of it, and it needed to meet some very specific targets at year end. And that simply didn't happen.

CO: What has changed? The stores have been around for many years. Canada has had them for about almost 50 years. I know that you're starting to close stores in the past at recent times, but what has changed that doesn't make this business model viable anymore?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: There are some interesting ironies here in that Ten Thousand Villages was a leader in developing the whole notion of fair-trade. We were a founding member of the World Fair Trade Organization a number of years ago. I think we've had a broad impact in the marketplace and in the movement of fair trade. And oddly enough, that also meant that we helped some of the artisan groups that we worked closely with over the years, find other markets and move their products beyond Ten Thousand Villages. So when we were contacting our artisans in the last day here, we know that there is a significant impact on them when Ten Thousand Villages, Canada will not buy from them anymore. But we also know that in part through Ten Thousand Villages' work, they have a broader base of sales and ability to market their products. We've helped create a more densely populated marketplace that had less room for us and was changing so rapidly and we are not able to compete anymore.

CO: That's very interesting because the original idea of fair-trade -- in this case, it goes back to Edna Ruth Byler in the 1940s. The idea was that until the free market started paying people a decent wage, that you would have this alternate system that would do that. Does it seem that fair trade is actually, in this case accomplished what it set out to do?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: In some ways it has. So part of this is a success story, that there are many other places to buy these products. Of course, many of them online, which has a huge impact on our capacities. Not all of them are being marketed as fair trade. We've held ourselves, we think, to a very high standard within the World Fair Trade Organization, things like making sure that you pay half for the product upfront when you ordered and the other half when you take delivery. So that also puts some extra pressures on the fair trade community. But those were the standards that we established for ourselves. And we think that's actually had a positive and broad impact across the marketplace. So we do want to celebrate that today, even as we recognize the losses and the impact that this means for artisans.

CO: And what losses does it represent for artisans?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: Well, as I said, we are not the sole seller of product for the artisans with whom we work. And I also don't want to diminish the impact that this has on people who worked in the Ten Thousand Villages movement here in Canada, both in our head office and in the stores that are closing. So there is significant impact. But it varies greatly across the Ten Thousand Villages community.

CO: I just wonder what happens, though, to those artisans. Because we know what the Fair Trade movement was able to do -- it was to pay a decent wage and sort of counter those downward pressures on wages that the free market produces. Right. So the ones who suffered the most in that were those people who didn't have a voice. So do they lose a voice if you're not representing them? f they're thrown sort of into the free market system, what do they lose by not having that umbrella that you provided?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: Well, I think I would respond in a couple of ways. One is that Ten Thousand Villages US, our colleagues, but completely separately owned and operated Ten Thousand Villages, they are continuing to function in the US. And in fact they will begin fulfilling the orders that are placed online in Canada when our web store closes. And in fact there are eight independently owned, we call them board stores, and they've said even with the closure of the corporate body of Ten Thousand Villages here in Canada, eight of these independently owned stores want to continue and sell products from many of these same artisan groups.

CO: Right. So it is still staying open in Edmonton and Calgary. Couple of stores in Manitoba. A couple of in Ontario and Quebec and BC. So, you know, those stores will be there and still you'll be available online, is that right?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: Exactly. And at the end of the day, that's a significant reality for a number of the artisan groups.

CO: Just finally, what it comes down to is that people want cheap stuff and they're only willing to pay a little bit more in the premium for fair trade. Is that always what you're up against?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: There's some truth to that. I think also consumer habits have changed in other ways. I'm not a retail expert. But I think people younger than I are collecting fewer things. You know, we hear people are buying experiences more than things or they're going to second-hand stores and using thrift shops. And that, coupled with online sales and other changes in the retail market, I think are all factors. There isn't sort of a single piece to this. But I think one of the other pieces of our message needs to be one of gratitude. There really are thousands of people, whether they are customers or are volunteers, of whom there were many, certainly staff in these stores and then artisans internationally. It really took thousands of them in each of those communities to make Villages. We really do want to send an expression of gratitude to all of those communities.

CO: It really did take Ten Thousand Villages, didn't it?

RICK COBER BAUMAN: It really did.

CO: Mr. Cober Bauman I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

RICK COBER BAUMAN: And I thank you for your interest in this story, Carol.

CH: Rick Cober Bauman is the national executive director of the Mennonite Central Committee Canada, which operates Ten Thousand Villages Canada. He's in Shakespeare, Ontario.

[Music]

Martine Roy

CH: For decades, starting in the 1950s, Canadians were fired from the public service just for being gay. But now Ottawa will be home to a national monument that will recognize that persecution. On Thursday, the National Capital Commission will announce the location of that monument. It will be paid for by the LGBT Purge Fund, which was established by the federal government as part of its settlement of a class action lawsuit by members of the military and civil servants. In 2017, the Trudeau government also apologized for decades of state sponsored discrimination. Martine Roy was one of the plaintiffs in that class action lawsuit. In 1981 when Ms. Roy was 20, she was interrogated about her sexuality while she was working as a medical assistant with the Canadian Armed Forces. And then she was dishonorably discharged. Today, Ms. Roy told CBC's "Ottawa Morning" about that experience and about what it means to have an LGBTQ monument.

SOUNDCLIP

MARTINE ROY: It took me about, I'm going to say about 10 years, of therapy and work to not be as scared. You've become like they say, paranoiac. Because you think all the time you're going to lose your job. You think you're never good enough. They made you feel so ashamed of yourselves for what you did because they were telling us we were sexual deviants. That we were not proud. We were hiding. Many of us never came out again of the closet. Some killed themselves. Some never succeed to do the work that they you really wanted to do. And that was what was the most hard for me, was to not be able to do the work that I want to do.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Martine, let's just talk about this monument for a moment. You're going to be requesting land from the NCC later on this week. I mean, in your ideal world, where would you like this monument to go?

MARTINE ROY: Well, I want it in Ottawa because it's our capital. It's something that happened to all Canadian. And the same time, the monument, it's really important to understand that this monument is for all LGBT. Not just for the Purge. So we really want to talk about our Canadian LGBT history through this monument. We want to have a monument where people will be able to reflect, as well they can celebrate, as well they can do event at this site. We've been working really hard on it. And in the same time, the money that we've put aside is really the money that was for people that went through the Purge and died. And because we can give money to people that died, we decide to do something that we remember. That we never forget. And that we never go back there ever again.

CH: That was Martine Roy, one of the people who pushed for a monument to be built to honor LGBTQ civil service workers who were fired over their sexual orientation. She was speaking with Robyn Bresnahan. The monument's location will be announced later this week.

[Music]

Vegas style wedding

CH: Amanda Chandler and her fiancé originally planned a low-key backyard wedding later this year. But wedding plans tend to change, although they don't tend to change this much. Their plans now include thousands of hockey fans and an Elvis Presley impersonator. This weekend, Ms. Chandler and her husband-to-be will tie the knot during the intermission of a Prince George Cougars hockey game during their annual Vegas Night. That is a more dramatic change than, say, deciding to go with the salmon instead of the chicken. So CBC British Columbia's Radio West asked Amanda Chandler to explain why she and her partner are doing this. And she did.

SOUNDCLIP

AMANDA CHANDLER: This year, Andy Beasley and myself, who is the VP of operations over the Cougars, sat down and we were just brainstorming ways to make the game bigger and better. And sort of talking about the different things that people go to Vegas to do. And it just popped up that people go to Vegas to get married by Elvis in a little white chapel. So that's how idea started. [Laughter]

SARAH PENTON: You were already engaged.

AMANDA CHANDLER: Yes.

SARAH PENTON: But how did you put it together that you would be the ones who would be getting married?

AMANDA CHANDLER: Well, when Andy and I kind of when we've touched on the idea, Andy right away was like, oh, it's too bad we don't know anybody that's getting married in 2020. And my fiancé and I we had already planned on being married in 2020. But we were just going to get married in the backyard by a JP with some, you know, close friends and family this coming summer. So [laughs] right away, I was like, "Well, actually, I do happen to know somebody." [Laughter]

SARAH PENTON: And what was your fiancé’s reaction when he found out he was going to be getting married in front of thousands of people?

AMANDA CHANDLER: He was a great sport. He was in. Chris is in for anything. I put this poor man up through so much stuff since we've met. He's always a good sport. [Laughter]

CH: That was Amanda Chandler speaking with Sarah Penton, host of Radio West. Ms. Chandler and her fiancee are getting married Vegas style this week at a Prince George Cougars hockey game.

[Music

Notre Dame Cathedral acoustics

Guest: Brian Katz

CH: If you've been there, you know how remarkable Paris's Notre Dame Cathedral is. Or was. Its famed rose windows. Its beautiful 19th century spire. The ruins maintained within its crypt, including some that date back to Roman occupation. But not all its remarkable aspects are tangible. For example, the sound of Notre Dame. And while engineers and architects from around the world debate the aesthetics of the reconstruction still to come, it's acoustics that Brian Katz is thinking about. Mr. Katz is a senior acoustics researcher at the Sorbonne who is working to ensure that a restored Notre Dame sounds right. We reached him in Paris.

CO: Brian, first of all, can you describe the way Notre Dane sounded before the fire? What was special about its acoustics?

BRIAN KATZ: Notre Dame, like many cathedrals, is a very large, hard space. So it has a very long reverberation of very full and rich sound. The reverberation time in Notre Dame was about six to eight seconds, which really gave us full, really immersive kind of rich sound to the space.

CO: You've been there since the fire. So what does this sound like now?

BK: Right now, basically there's a number of things that have changed. One is there's no seating because it was all moved because of the fire. There's a fair amount of dust. And there's three big holes in the ceiling, which mean that the reverberation time is less. And dust is quite absorbing so that also reduces some of the frequencies. So it doesn't feel at all like the same cathedral that it was before.

CO: And just before we get into more about the acoustics and what might be done about that, just being in there, I mean, people in Paris have talked about just the experience of seeing it during the fire and afterwards. What was it like for you to be inside that cathedral after the fire?

BK: It's like walking into a disaster area. When we were there, there was still big piles of burnt wood and everything sitting around the floor in various places was all un-elated from where the spire had hit and damaged the floor. And because there's only so few people allowed in because of the concerns for lead poisoning and other things, I think we were probably only about eight people in the cathedral at the time. So it's a very serene kind of alone feeling. That added to the fact that there's sunlight coming in from the ceiling and gave it a very different visual. It's kind of unreal in so many ways.

CO: Were you there the night of the fire?

BK: Yeah. We saw it on television at the beginning. And I kind of didn't think much about it. I thought, "oh, they'll take care of it. It's a fire. There's firemen." And then my wife decided that we should go and look and see exactly what was going on. And by the time we got there, the city was just full of people looking at Notre Dame. And what was the most eerie was there was nobody talking, really. So this great mass of people and a great silence among such a great mass of people.

CO: You know, it's an interesting detail. Only a person who deals with sound would have noted because others have described that and not heard it the way you heard it, which is really fascinating. What can you do now? What are the possibilities for restoring the cathedral's acoustics to what they were?

BK: So restoration for us at the moment, the site is still going through the process of figuring out what's safe and what's not and what parts of the building can remain and what parts of the building would have to be torn down. What we're trying to do is kind of highlight that the acoustics of the space, like the architecture, has been evolving almost since the beginning of the construction. And what we want to do is kind of highlight, when people say we want to make it sound as it did before, well, when is before? It depends a lot on what, you know, kind of how it was decorated, how it was used, what religious performances were happening. And we want to kind of highlight that so when people say, let's make it what it was, that they actually know what that means.

CO: For you what it was is something you actually recorded in 2013, is that right?

BK: Yes. So we made recordings kind of the first. And from what we understand, the only detailed acoustic measurements in 2013 as part of a project. And then the same team that I'm with now in the late 80s had done some minor measurements. They were doing a study on installing a new organ. And we were even able to see that between the late 80s and now or a few years ago, the acoustics had changed. And it was just the installation of a carpet in the circulation area. And when people talk about the importance of the acoustics, it's with a number of historical elements. There's the origination of Gothic music coming out of there. Well, the acoustics at that time is not at all what the acoustic was in 2013. The building has undergone huge amounts of renovation and changes. When the organ was installed, I think that's 200 and something years ago, I mean, we can make it as it was. But as it was in 2013 is not actually what made the acoustics famous and interesting through history.

CO: When the work is done and you've done your work -- will they be able to calibrate it? Will they make any adjustments based on your recommendations if you feel you can improve on the sound inside the cathedral?

BK: So what we're hoping to do is with the model that we created after the measurements in 2013, we have a calibrated acoustic model of the space. And what we're hoping to do is kind of enter now into discussions with both politicians and especially with the architectural team to provide them a tool so that they can test ideas and look at the acoustical impacts of changes that they are proposing. So if I take the extreme, if they want to make a glass ceiling, that's flat we can show how that will make the acoustics different or not. So that our goal is really to provide them with a tool to make educated guesses.

CO: When the work is all done and the restoration is complete, is there a particular piece of music that you would like to hear performed in Notre Dame Cathedral?

BK: I think my gut reaction would be the same piece that we recorded in 2013 so that you can almost make a direct comparison to how the acoustics was then and how the acoustic is now -- a before and after.

CO: And that's the piece by Jules Massenet.

BK: Yes. And what's interesting about that piece is that there's a huge orchestra at the kind of the intersection of the cross -- there's another trial orchestra behind that. There's musicians up in the balconies doing certain solo pieces. So it's a very spatial composition. And it really kind of fills the room and uses the acoustics of different places in the space throughout the performance. So it's a really wild thing to experience.

CO: And of course, we have that recording and we're going to play it for our listeners. Brian, thank you so much.

BK: A pleasure.

CH: Brian Katz is a senior acoustics researcher at the Sorbonne. His work was recently featured in a series on the Notre Dame reconstruction at ScienceNews.org. We reached him in Paris. Now, you just heard Mr. Katz talk about the simulations he and his colleagues have been able to create using sound recorded inside Notre Dame back in 2013. One of those simulations is called "Ghost Orchestra" and features audio from a performance of "La Vierge" by Jules Massenet. Now, here's how that audio sounds in a model designed to show what it's like to experience music from different parts of the cathedral.

SOUNDCLIP

[Ghost Orchestra: La Vierge by Jules Massenet]

CH: This is part of a simulation called "Ghost Orchestra" demonstrating how sound resonates with in different parts of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. For more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Book Murderer

CH: Ernest Hemingway once said "There is no friend as loyal as a book." Of course, Ernest Hemingway was a notoriously awful friend and person. So it's no wonder he considered books more reliable than people. They can leave you in tears, but they can't actually leave. To cut a long story short: Hemingway treated his library better than he treated his friends. And speaking of cutting, long story short, Alex Christofi isn't so kind to his books. Mr. Christofi is a British novelist. Today he tweeted the following. "Yesterday, my colleague called me a 'book murderer' because I cut long books in half to make them more portable. Does anyone else do this? Is it just me?" His photo shows three books: David Foster Wallace's "Infinite Jest" Joseph Franks Biography of Dostoyevsky, and "Middlesex" by Jeffrey Eugenides. Except those three giant books are actually six mid-sized books now. He's torn them all in half down the spine. Like his copy of Middlesex, opinion on this practice is divided. Some people reasonably replied that it doesn't matter what you do to your books as long as you're reading. Others equally reasonably felt that Mr. Christofi was a dangerous maniac who is almost certainly Satan. In an interview, Mr. Christofi said, "To the haters I would say, the book is just a mortal husk. It's the story itself that is the soul." That is one opinion. But if you have thoughts on this tome-foolery, please let us know. Email us a aih@cbc.ca. Call talkback at 416-205-5687. Or tweet us @CBCAsItHappens. I figure we'll hear from the halves and the halve-nots.

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January 21, 2020 Episode Transcript

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