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The Current Transcript for January 20, 2020

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: The feedback that we receive, at least from customers, both around the world as well as in Canada, is that they are comfortable with our equipment and they're comfortable with their own ability to protect their own customers.

MATT GALLOWAY: While comfortable might be in the eye of the beholder, there have been significant concerns raised by security experts around the world about the possibility that the Chinese tech giant Huawei could provide the infrastructure for the next generation of the Internet in Canada. As an extradition hearing for the Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou begins in Vancouver and two Canadians remain in a Chinese prison under harsh conditions, we asked why Canada should trust Huawei to build our 5G network. That's first up. And then.

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VOICE: I've never seen it snow like this. I mean I lived here for 35 years and I've never seen anything remotely like this amount of snow.

MG: Cars buried, mini avalanches dumping snow through people's living rooms. The army has been called in. In an hour, we head to Newfoundland to hear how the digging out is going. We begin though with an executive in the dock and hard questions around what Canada's relationship with China should look like in 2020. Good morning. I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current.

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Huawei refutes reports it helps China with surveillance, detention of Muslim minorities in Xinjiang

Guests: Jason Proctor, Robert Malley, Alykhan Velshi, Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

MG: The spotlight is on Courtroom 20 in the British Columbia Supreme Court in Vancouver today, and that is where the next chapter in the story of Meng Wanzhou will unfold.

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VOICE: A grand jury in New York has returned an indictment alleging 13 additional crimes committed by Huawei, its CFO, its affiliate in Iran and one of its subsidiaries here in the United States. The criminal activity alleged in this indictment goes back at least 10 years and goes all the way to the top of the company.

MG: Canada's role in this saga began in December of 2018 when Meng Wanzhou was arrested at the Vancouver airport. Ever since, people here, in China and in the United States have been watching. Meng Wanzhou is the chief financial officer of the Chinese telecom company Huawei and is accused of fraud relating to violating U.S. sanctions against Iran. Now, Canada has to decide whether to extradite her to the United States to face those charges. The CBC's Jason Proctor has been covering the Meng Wanzhou story since the beginning. Jason, good morning.

JASON PROCTOR: Hi, Matt.

MG: There are a lot of different angles and legal complexities in this story. What do you expect to see in the courtroom later today?

JASON PROCTOR: This week is basically about the principle of double criminality, which underpins the whole idea of extradition. So basically, if you're going to send somebody to another country because they're accused of a crime, they're the same crime would be an offence in Canada. Underpinning this is the idea that Meng Wanzhou violated economic sanctions, U.S. economic sanctions against Iran. What the defence is going to argue is that because at the time the extradition warrant was sworn, Canada did not have those same economic sanctions that had all the activity that you know, that she's accused of doing occurred in Canada, it wouldn't be a crime. The Crown on the other hand, is going to say the actual charge that she's facing in the United States is fraud and it's the essence of the charge that's important and fraud is fraud on both sides of the border.

MG: In as simple terms as possible, can you explain what the charges are against her? What is she alleged to have done?

JASON PROCTOR: Well, so this actually all goes back to about 2012, 2013, when this series of stories by Reuters ran looking at a company called Skycom that had been operating in Tehran. And Skycom was accused of trying to sell Hewlett-Packard American computer equipment to a telecommunications provider, Iran's largest telecommunications provider that would be in violation of U.S. economic sanctions. But the stories alleged that Skycom was in fact a hidden subsidiary entirely controlled basically by Huawei. The two companies, you know, use the same offices, had the same employees, that kind of thing, that it was kind of a front for Huawei, basically. And so these stories raised concerns among the banks that were providing funding in the hundreds of millions of dollars to Huawei. And so Meng Wanzhou, who is the chief financial officer of Wall, we had a meeting with an executive from HSBC where she's accused of showing a PowerPoint in which she claimed that, in fact, while we operated completely within the bounds of the law, there was no violation of U.S. economic sanctions and that the relationship with Skycom was just as a sort of a third party contractor based on those representations that PowerPoint, HSBC and a number of other banks, according to the U.S. prosecution, made decisions that they would continue banking Huawei. And what's alleged is that they were then themselves put at risk of violating U.S. economic sanctions.

MG: What are the possible outcomes of this case for Meng Wanzhou. Start with the short term.

JASON PROCTOR: Well, the short term would be that she could be committed for extradition down to the United States, which would mean that, you know, she could actually face jailing in the United States. That's massive. That could take a number of years because the extradition process is a long one. And so in the long term, what she's looking at probably is a drawn out legal proceeding in Canada, unless this is kind of settled through some other means, which a variety of politicians and people have suggested.

MG: And then if she were to be extradited to the United States, the long term possible outcomes of this would be that she would go on trial there?

JASON PROCTOR: Exactly. And face, you know, the possibility of a jail sentence.

MG: This is interesting for a number of reasons. One of which is that Meng Wanzhou is the CFO of Huawei and Huawei, in addition to its scale and its scope is not just any normal large telecom, is it?

JASON PROCTOR: No, it's not. You know, Huawei is one of three companies in the world right now, the other two being Nokia and Ericsson, which are kind of the major contenders to build the world's next generation of wireless technology. You know, what you hear about is 5G, the fifth generation of wireless technology. Huawei has expanded rapidly and so, you know, there's a lot of kind of money at play and Huawei has come under the eye of the U.S. government, which has excluded Huawei away from the ability to bid on contracts to build the 5G network and certainly with regards to anything in the government in the U.S. and Canada has to make a similar decision right now. You know, in the U.S. over the past year, we've seen placed massive pressure on all of its allies not to accept Huawei into the 5G grid because basically they claimed that it would be a Trojan horse for the Chinese state.

MG: She's the CFO of this company, but she's more than that.

JASON PROCTOR: Yeah, exactly. She is also the daughter of Ren Zhengfei, who is the founder of Huawei. That makes her a massively important person within the company. You know, her lawyer likened her arrest to had Chief Operating Officer Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook been arrested in China.

MG: One would think that given the scale and the scope and the importance of a company like this, she would have limitless resources for a defence team and people have described this legal team as a bit of a dream team. Who is on the team?

JASON PROCTOR: So there's four main lawyers. The first one, David Martin. It's interesting, you know, a lot of legal argument is obviously based on precedent and in a number of the arguments that have been made here, the precedent, his name keeps coming up, as the person know who argued these previous cases that Meng Wanzhou is now relying on to try to seek her freedom. There's Richard Peck. He was one of the lawyers who earned an acquittal for one of the Air India bombers. If you're in legal circles, it's certainly kind of the creme de la creme.

MG: How is this team portraying its client? I mean what is Meng Wanzhou being being presented as in the lead up to this trial?

JASON PROCTOR: Well, two different things, I think, one, I mean, she's denied all the charges. That's important to note. And also what they have taken pains to do and though this is the first kind of formal part of her extradition proceedings, there's been lead up, which has involved arguments that she is a victim of an abuse of process. It's kind of a bureaucratic way of saying that, you know, they're claiming that she's been used as a political pawn and also that Canadian authorities conspired with U.S. authorities at the time of her arrest in order to kind of mount a covert criminal investigation. Because what happened is, is she arrived in Vancouver and she was first detained by the Canada Border Services Agency agents for about three hours before she was actually arrested. She was asked questions, her phones were seised and she gave up her passcodes, which were later passed on to the RCMP. The defence claims that was kind of all done at the behest of the FBI. The other element to this is though, that U.S. President Donald Trump had talked about this case shortly after her arrest, saying, you know, he'd intervene if it would get a better result in terms of a trade deal with China. We recently had prime minister, Justin Trudeau, talk about that. And so the defence has sort of described her as a political pawn, somebody who's a victim of fairly small person, though important, caught up in this massive global economic conflict.

MG: And in the meantime, since her arrest, how is this very small, though, important person, as you describe her, been spending her time?

JASON PROCTOR: She was released on this fairly unique kind of a bail situation, 10 million dollars bail. A number of her neighbours and friends had to put up the possibility of their houses in order to secure that. She funds a team of security guards who trail her everywhere she goes. You know, she has a curfew, but she's allowed to move around Vancouver with the exception of the airport and the ferry terminal to Vancouver Island for probably fairly obvious reasons. But she's been sighted at cafes and dinners. She hasn't spoken to the media, but she's posted some blog posts which have thanked people for supporting her and also reflecting on her first year during this ordeal in which she kind of talked about taking the time to oil paint and read books.

MG: And again, people have made comparisons to the situation she finds herself in to that of the two Michaels, Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, Canadians who find themselves in detention in China, having not seen a lawyer. And she's in some sort of luxury estate in Vancouver?

JASON PROCTOR: Very much. There have been numerous pictures of her ankle where you can see this monitoring bracelet. Very notably, she was seen wearing these Jimmy Choo shoes, designer shoes that are worth thousands of dollars with this sort of ankle bracelet. Inevitably, that does draw these comparisons to these two Canadians who have both been held. First they were detained outside the legal system, then they were officially arrested and ultimately charged with spying in China. They face a very perilous and uncertain future. They've been incarcerated. They have no contact with lawyers and friends or family, which is a giant contrast to her.

MG: Jason, thank you. We will watch as this trial unfolds.

JASON PROCTOR: Thank you very much.

MG: Jason Proctor, CBC reporter in Vancouver and the creator of a podcast called Sanction: The Arrest of a Telecom Giant. Let's turn to the two Michaels that Jason mentioned. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor they have been held in a Chinese prison since shortly after the arrest of Meng Wanzhou. The conditions are reportedly very difficult, long interrogations, bright lights on 24 hours a day, no access to family. Brian Gold is a friend of Michael Spavor.

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VOICE: I consider him one of my best friends in the world. We're both from Alberta. He's from Calgary, I'm from Edmonton. We don't let that get in the way of our friendship. He has this real gift of making friends. This real emotional intelligence, that he's just like this ordinary down to earth guy you could possibly imagine. I know somewhat how he's doing. Certainly the access is very restricted. Some of his conditions have improved somewhat. I think perhaps despite all the physical difficulties of the situation and the lights on and all that sort of stuff all the time and underneath this charismatic, gregarious nature, he's got a very tough mind I just admire him all the more for the strength he's shown right now in this situation. I don't even want to think about it too much. It's really difficult.

MG: The other Michael, Michael Kovrig, is an analyst at the International Crisis Group. Robert Malley is the president and CEO there. Robert, good morning to you.

ROBERT MALLEY: Good morning.

MG: We heard a bit about how Michael Spavoris doing. What can you tell us about how your colleague Michael Kovrig is?

ROBERT MALLEY: Well, obviously, there's somebody because I can't get into. They are really about the province of his family. But I could say, obviously, these are very difficult conditions and light years away from what we just described, as you just described from Ms. Meng's conditions. There's been some gradual improvements since the early days of his detention, but he's still living in extremely harsh conditions, little to no contact with others, limited access to any activities. Now, he's coping with this now in ways that I couldn't even imagine and doing everything he can to keep his own mind, his spirit active and alive and doing everything he can to remain connected to the outside world, but it's obviously a very trying period for him and all his loved ones.

MG: What else can you tell us about the conditions we've heard? Again, that the lights are on 24 hours a day. What else do you know and what else can you tell us?

ROBERT MALLEY: As I say and I don't want to get into into details. I think some of those conditions have improved very marginally and gradually, but of course, the fact is he shouldn't be there in the first place. And so we could talk about, you know, marginal improvements over time, which are important and much more should be done so that his conditions become far more acceptable. But the bottom line is he shouldn't be there in the first place. He is a victim of of what happened between Canada, the U.S. and China. And this was not the right response for China. China, as we just heard, has many, many tools at its disposal to try to get Ms. Meng out. It has, she has limitless funds. One thing that China shouldn't have done is arrest Michael Kovrig and hold him as a de facto hostage.

MG: You almost said kidnap.

ROBERT MALLEY: I'm sorry. Yes, I don't mean that. They've detained him. That was, I misspoke.

MG: But do you see a direct connection between his detention and the arrest of Meng Wanzhou.

ROBERT MALLEY: You know, I don't think one has to be an expert in Chinese politics to understand that he, Michael, was doing in China what all of our analysts around the world. And he's been doing it for, he had been doing it for a long time. Transparently going there, talking to Chinese officials, briefing them on what he heard, and ask them questions about how China could play a more productive role in his view and our view in resolving and preventing conflicts around the world. And suddenly, nine days after Ms. Meng is arrested, the Chinese authorities discover that he's been engaged in illegitimate activity. That just doesn't hold water. It's clear to anyone who looks at this why this happened and it's not, it was obviously a wholly arbitrary arrest and now a wholly arbitrary detention.

MG: Knowing him as you do and again, I understand what you can and can't say, but what do you know about how he's coping with the situation that he finds himself in?

ROBERT MALLEY: As I said, I mean, I just can't imagine how he is coping as well as he is. He's using the time to think, to to reflect, to try to do everything he can to stay in touch with people in the outside world. He's maintained a mental strength that is to me, an object of awe every time I hear reports of how he's doing. So given what he's going through, I think it's remarkable, but of course, it's extraordinarily trying and difficult and the fact that he doesn't know at all how long he'll be detained and he still has not had any contact with any member of his family, you know, that takes its toll. But I have to say, and I think every member of his family feels the same way, he's been remarkable.

MG: Where would that strength come from in him?

ROBERT MALLEY: I don't know. You know, I think nobody is prepared for that kind of experience, that kind of trial. And I think one discovers whether those inner strengths when one is faced with it. And Michael obviously did. He probably was better equipped than than most of us. So maybe he discovered areas of strength and resources that he didn't even suspect he had.

MG: What do you think the Canadian government should be doing to try and get both of these men freed?

ROBERT MALLEY: You know, I don't want to really second guess. I know one thing I'll have to say the Canadian government has been extremely cooperative and we've worked hand in glove with them every step of the way to see what we can do, whether it's to put pressure and persuasion towards China or work, make sure that the United States keeps Michael Kovrig on their agenda when they're negotiating or talking to the Chinese about any of these issues.

MG: Have you spoken with the new Canadian ambassador to China, Dominic Barton?

ROBERT MALLEY: Yes, I have. And he is somebody who I knew from before and he actually called me before his appointment was public to let me know that he was going to become the ambassador and to say that he wanted to work with us, seek our input on Michael, and then say that he wanted to work closely with us and I remain in touch with him. And I know he's doing everything in his power. And again, this is, you know, Canada's obviously and I don't need to say this on the show, but it's a difficult situation because in many ways it really depends on what happens to Ms. Meng and that's both in the courts and in the hands of the United States. So there's only so much in that Canada could do, but hopefully the efforts will pay off and Michael will be home relatively soon.

MG: It's not just these two men that are being detained in a Chinese president without charge. Alex Neve is the secretary general of Amnesty International Canada and he tells us about an Ontario man whose name is Huseyin Celil.

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VOICE: Huseyin Celil is the weaker Canadian and he's been imprisoned in China since 2006. The Canadian government has never been given consular access. They've never been allowed to visit him in prison because the Chinese government refuses to recognize his Canadian citizenship, can't even verify his mental state, his physical health. His wife and four children live in Burlington, Ontario and have now been separated from him for close to 14 years.

MG: When you hear that story, what goes through your mind?

ROBERT MALLEY: I'm not, I wasn't familiar with it, but I mean, I make a broader point, which is what I just heard and everything we've been thinking over the last now 400 days plus. You know, in my role and in the crisis group's role, we've been advocates of engagements with China, of working with China, for China to play a more active role on the world scene as a promoter of ideas to resolve and prevent deadly conflicts, which could affect its interests and the interests of others. And whenever it takes actions like this or what we've just heard, it undermines that case. It makes it much more difficult for those of us who believe that that's the kind of relationship that one should have with China. It sends the wrong message. It certainly sends the message that people have to think twice before travelling, before doing business, before academics, who want to travel there. And, of course, you know, the treatment of others just makes one more questioning of the role that China is playing. But again, that doesn't detract from the fact that we continue to be in contact with China's authorities and we continue to share our views, not just about Michael, but about the role that China could play around the world.

MG: And you're, just in the remaining seconds we have, you're still optimistic that that relationship is one that can move forward in a meaningful way? There are a lot of people who say that we need to rethink, seriously rethink what Canada's relationship is with China in 2020.

ROBERT MALLEY: You know, again, I think ultimately there's not much of a choice because China is a growing power and Canada and other countries are going to have to build a strong relationship or productive relationship with China, but China has to make that job easier. And the one step it could take would be to release those that it's arbitrarily detained.

MG: It's a very difficult situation and we will continue to follow this. I appreciate you speaking with us this morning, Robert. Thank you.

ROBERT MALLEY: Thank you.

MG: Robert Malley is the president and CEO of the International Crisis Group. That is where Michael Kovrig works. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor are being held in a Chinese prison at this moment. The CBC News is next. And then we continue our coverage of the Chinese telecom giant Huawei and those conversations and questions are on what Canada's relationship with China should be in 2020. I visit the Canadian headquarters of Huawei and find out what makes officials of that company say that Canada has nothing to fear from its 5G network. My name is Matt Galloway, and you're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One.

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MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current.

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MG: Still to come, the shovels and the snow blowers are out and boots are on the ground in Newfoundland, battling a blizzard like no other. But first, Huawei in Canada.

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VOICE: Well, ladies and gents, well, first of all, welcome to Huawei. It's our pleasure to host you guys. We're in our Customer Solution Innovation Centre. So this is basically our showroom to everybody.

MG: The headquarters for Huawei Canada is just off the highway, north of Toronto, set apart from the other office buildings by the windows. They're tinted pink along with the large red Huawei logo.

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VOICE: This is what we call the AAU. Basically an antenna and video unit combined unit. So this is the things that you see on top of the towers and on top of roofs.

MG: We're surrounded by simple white plastic boxes. Some of them the size of a computer, others are smaller, like a modem. And the guts inside those boxes are what Huawei hopes will form the backbone of Canada's new ultra fast, ultra powerful 5G Internet. I'm here at the headquarters to talk to Alykhan Velshi. He's the vice president of corporate affairs for Huawei, Canada. I want to start with what's happening in British Columbia. What is the outcome of the Meng Wanzhou case mean for Huawei in this country?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Well, it's important. You know, she's our CFO. She's a global leader in our company. And, you know, we're fundamentally convinced of her innocence and we have confidence in the rule of law and our judiciary here, but her trial is critical for our company.

MG: Do you think that her detention right now is justified?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I think Canada's following a process under its rules, but our view is that the decision of the Trump administration to seek her arrest and seek her prosecution is unjustified, is contrary to the rule of law. And it's put to Canada and Meng Wanzhou and others in a very difficult position.

MG: Just to be clear, if she were to be extradited to the United States, what would that mean for Huawei's presence in this country.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: That's not how we approach business decisions in terms of linking things. You know, our commitment to Canada is clear. We're growing in Canada. We've grown in Canada since her detention and we're going to continue to seek to grow in Canada across all of our business lines.

MG: This is a company that's pushing to be deeply involved in building Canada's superfast new 5G network. Why should Huawei be trusted with that responsibility?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I think as a Canadian, from a Canadian perspective, we should be judged on our record in Canada. So as I said, we've been here since 2008. We sold network equipment to Bell, Telus, Rogers, Sasktel and other operators in Canada. We've worked closely with Canada security agencies and in our more than a decade here, we haven't had a single incident or complaint or security incident. And so our view is that we should be trusted based on our record in Canada, which has proven not based on some of the rhetoric that we're hearing from down south in the Trump administration.

MG: But this isn't about what's happened in past. This is about the future. And we can talk about what 5G is going to look like and what it would mean. Why should Huawei be trusted with building the future of the Internet in this country?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Well, for starters, Huawei is one of, if not the world leaders in terms of 5G network equipment. And so to exclude Huawei would be to exclude, frankly, the company that is setting the pace for this technology in the rest of the world. And I think that there's a first mover advantage that comes to those countries that deploy Huawei first. We're already seeing deployment in Asia and in Europe and in the Middle East and I think from kind of a Canadian perspective, we may no longer have that first mover advantage, but we certainly don't want to be laggards..

MG: I'm goingtTo come back to the issue of trust, because I think it's really important, but one of the reasons why people raise it is because they wonder about the company itself. They wonder what this company is and who is in charge of this company. How independent is Huawei from the Chinese state?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Look, we're a private company in china. In Canada, huawei Canada is incorporated under the laws of Canada and our operations here in Canada occur through our Canadian based employees and the only laws that apply to us from our president, Eric, to me, to the engineer beavering away in a cubicle or a lab somewhere are the laws of Canada.

MG: When you say that it's a private company, there have been real questions around that. Legal experts have looked into this. They found that 99 percent of the company is owned by Huawei's Trade Union Committee. The legal analysis of this suggests that the trade unions actually have nothing to do with the employees themselves and that this is an arm of the Chinese government.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I mean, look, the idea that it's an arm of the Chinese government is false. It's wrong and it's badly wrong. From a Chinese perspective, there are state owned companies that exist and Huawei is definitely not one of those. In terms of its status under Chinese law, as an employee-owned private company, you know, those are complicated questions of kind of Chinese kind of corporate governance law, which I'm not an expert,.

MG: But they get to the heart of some of the concerns that people have about trust.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: They actually, they don't because the technology that Huawei sells, whether it's in Canada, whether it's in the U.K. or whether it's anywhere else, is monitored by the operators to whom we sell the technology, the security agencies who review that technology and the administration of Huawei in the hundred and seventy countries that we operate in that are not China are governed by the laws of those countries.

MG: The former Chinese ambassador to Canada said that there would be repercussions for this country if Huawei were to be banned from 5G. That suggests that the Chinese government has considerable concern around and considerable interest in Huawei, does it not?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: If that's the position of the Chinese government, it's certainly not the position of Huawei, where we have never said anything of that nature.

MG: But, you could understand why that would raise some concerns, not just of scholars, but of other governments around the world.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Look, any any threats of retaliation are obviously inappropriate and they raise concerns, but the way that we address those concerns is by not repeating them, but by instead saying that our commitment to Canada remains. And while we respect whatever process and decision the government of Canada is administering on 5G, regardless of that decision, our commitment to Canada remains. And that's why we're continuing to grow in Canada in all aspects of our business, and that will continue.

MG: One of the other issues around trust is there are two Canadians who are being held in Chinese prisons. Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor. There are Canadians who are alarmed about doing business with a company that has strong or is as weak as you might want to say, ties to the Chinese government. What do you say to those people who have those concerns of doing business with a Chinese company in that context?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Look, I think that Canada is a trading nation. We do business with companies from countries all around the world. I think it's unrealistic for Canada to wall itself off to the rest of the world. I think it would be unwise for Canada to wall itself off to China, which is its second largest trading partner after the United States. And so I think that those who think that we can just sort of build walls, you know, to use the language of Donald Trump, are not being realistic.

MG: There are a lot of people, I mean, whether it's academics, whether it's former ambassadors whosay that these two men were scooped up directly because of the arrest of Meng Wanzhou, your CFO. And so, again, there are questions around why would we as a nation want to get in business with a company that finds itself aligned with a government that would do such a thing?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Look, what we've said on the two Michaels consistently is that we're concerned, like all Canadians are concerned about their treatment. We want to see them home as soon as possible. But ultimately, these sorts of issues can only be resolved by our government here in Ottawa, working with the government of China, diplomats working together to bring them home and these are just not issues that, you know, tech companies get involved in precisely because it could make matters worse.

MG: Do you believe that they were inprisoned because the CFO of a tech company, as you call it, was detained here in Canada?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I mean, I can't speak for the actions of the Chinese government any better than anyone else can. All I can say is that our position at Huawei is that we're concerned about their treatment. We want to see them home as soon as possible.

MG: The issue of trust also extends to issues around security. Richard Fadden is the former director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. He has said and this is a quotation, "If China would resort to putting Canadians to death to defend its corporate national champion, what might it do if the Chinese Communist Party had unfettered access to Canada's vital communications networks?" What would you say to Richard Fadden.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: So, look, I've known Richard Fadden. I've known Dick Fadden for years. I have a great deal of respect for him personally and I think and for his contributions to the country on this issue and he and I have spoken about this. We just fundamentally disagree. Right? We disagree that it is realistic or sensible for Canada to wall itself off from China, for the government to introduce political factors and technology decisions and we also disagree about the nature of Huawei in Canada, because our view is that in our more than a decade of operation in Canada, during part of which Mr. Fadden was head of CSIS and national security adviser, we've never received a complaint.

MG: It's not just Richard Fadden. There are concerns being raised by intelligence experts from our close allies, from the United States, from Australia. Why should people who are listening trust you and trust Huawei over the intelligence experts here in this country, but also of our allies?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I think that there are intelligence experts on both sides of this issue.

MG: But these ones are saying that there are real concerns. So, again, the question is why should we trust what you are saying versus what they're saying?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: A few reasons. So, first of all, they're coming out with a particular perspective. So there are intelligence experts who have a different perspective, but fundamentally, this is a technology issue and while they may be experts in China and in foreign relations and in diplomacy, very few of these individuals are engineers, are physicists who understand the core technology.

MG: You're suggesting that someone like Richard Fadden doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to technology?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I'm suggesting that CSE, Communications Security Establishment, who are the domestic security agency that looks into issues of related to signals intelligence are the technical experts. And our view is that on the security side, these questions that are raised admit a technical solution and there is a technical solution to them. And fundamentally, the difference of opinion between Richard Fadden and us is, in my opinion, that he doesn't believe that there is a technical solution possible. We believe there is. The feedback that we receive, at least from customers, both around the world as well as in Canada, is that they are comfortable with our equipment and they're comfortable with their own ability to protect their own customers.

MG: Intelligence experts have warned over the last little while certainly, about a new national intelligence law in China. The law says that Chinese companies must and this is a quotation, "support, cooperate with and collaborate in national intelligence work when asked." It also needs to be kept secret. What should Canadians make of that?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: So my understand is laws of this nature have actually existed on the books for a while. And though this one in particular is new and that we have addressed those concerns in the following ways. So first of all, our founder and CEO, Mr. Ren, has said that were he to receive an inappropriate request, he would defy it. Secondly, he sought on behalf of the company, legal advice from Clifford Chance, a respected global law firm based in the UK, about Huawei's obligations under that law and the advice that they have provided is that Huawei would not have to comply with such a request. Thirdly, he has said and all of our global executives have said that, you know, we're a global business that operates in 170 countries. Were we to ever comply with an inappropriate request like that, we would stop being a global company that operates in 170 countries and we would just frankly, just be a company that only is able to operate in China and that he would never do that to the company. But fourthly, and what I think should be most reassuring to Canadians is that the operations of Huawei in Canada occur through our candidate based executives and the only law that applies to us from our president, Eric, to our an engineer beavering away in a lab are the laws of Canada. And for anyone at Huawei here to comply with such a request would be such a transparent violation of the laws of Canada and we're all very clear on this here in Canada.

MG: Why shouldn't what's in that law scare people in this country about getting involved in that company?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I mean, you know, it's scary in the potential of its extraterritorial application, but in terms of the work that we do, in terms of the network equipment, you know, we provide, the idea that we would have the ability to remotely access our equipment is just false. Just from an engineering perspective, it's false. Once we sell the equipment to our customers, we lose access to it and so.

MG: Chinese government says that any company has to be able to collaborate in national intelligence work and keep it secret.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Well, we don't have the ability to remotely access any of the equipment we sell to our customers. And that's been certified and verified not just by our customers, but also by our domestic security agencies.

MG: It goes back in many ways to that issue of trust that we've raised a couple of times. One of the things that Huawei has been doing recently is working with the Chinese state in helping to build surveillance infrastructure in Shenzhen, where Uighurs and part of the Muslim minority there, what a million, a million plus people are in what people have described as concentration camps and internment camps and re-education camps. Why should a company that has that on its track record be doing any work in this country?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: So I want to kind of answer that in a few ways. So first of all, just to kind of be clear, my expertise in my line of sight is primarily into Canada, but when I read those stories in the press, you know, I asked the same questions that Canadians asked.

MG: What was the question that you asked?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I asked, you know, are the reports true? What are we doing? You know, those sorts of questions and the answers that I received are, first of all, the company has at the global level, denied the report. Specifically, the parts that we've denied is that we operate any sort of smart city technology and that makes a lot of sense to me as a Canadian because we don't operate any of the technology we sell. We sell it to customers who operate it themselves. And so that aspect of the reporting is false. But the way we sort of explained to me is that sensitive military projects in China, Huawei is excluded from bidding for them because it's not a state-owned company. But what we do do is we will sell technology to integrators and to customers and how they deploy the technology is fundamentally up to them.

MG: So there's there's a couple of things in there. One, just to be clear, you don't believe, I mean, there's been a lot of reporting in the press from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and others. You don't believe that Huawei is involved in the infrastructure, in what people have called concentration camps in the surveillance cities in China that have imprisoned a million plus Uighurs?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: No. The reporting that we always operating smart city technologies in Xinjiang is false because we don't operate smart city technologies anywhere in the world. We sell technology to customers.

MG: Surveillance technologies, okay put smart city with surveillance technology.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: We sell technology to customers and they operate it. In the case of that province, again, you know, the answer that I've received is we will sell to integrators and how they bundle that technology is fundamentally up to them, but it is the idea that Huawei is the only global company that is operating in different parts of the world is false. You know, we sell cell phones, we sell technology all around the world, but we don't operate it. We don't know how our customers choose to operate it.

MG: C'mon. I mean, if you're selling surveillance technology to Xinjiang, knowing what's happening in that province in China, you're suggesting that you had no idea -- we sold surveillance technology. It turns out they're doing surveillance on a Muslim community, but we didn't know that our technology was going to be used to do that surveillance. You expect people to believe that?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Like I said, to go back to sort of my original answer, my line of sight and the things that happen outside of Canada is limited. But, you know, the analogy that our founder, Mr. Ren gave, I think he gave it to The Globe and Mail when he was asked a similar question, was that if you think about us as like selling trucks, we'll sell the trucks, but what someone who buys the truck decides to put in the trucks, we don't have line of sight into that. We simply don't know, and we don't have control over it once the gear leaves our premises, if you will.

MG: There are people who say that your company, or the company that you work for, is profiting from human rights abuses. And again, the question goes back to what I started with, which is, why would this country want to get as deeply involved as could be possible with a company that is doing that?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Look, I think that any company that is operating globally, whether it's Huawei, whether its SNC Lavalin, whether it's Bombardier, is selling to countries which have different value systems than our own. As a Canadian, I would say that they're probably having to sell to countries that have less good value systems than I'm personally comfortable with as a Canadian.

MG: Where's the but in that though?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: But fundamentally, we can't stop the pace of globalization by walling ourselves off to the rest of the world. We can't tell Canadian companies they can only sell abroad to like minded jurisdictions, just like we can't tell foreign companies that they're not allowed to sell into Canada. I just I fundamentally don't believe that that is good for the rest of the world. We have to be prepared to accept that globalization means dealing with people who are different than ourselves.

MG: This might be unfair, but personally, does it give you pause that story? The fact that the company that you work for may or may not be somehow involved in this?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Certainly what's happening in Xinjiang causes me a great deal of concern, as it should cause everyone who is concerned about human rights abroad, but Huawei selling to customers who may sell to customers who may do something? That, to me, is a different issue entirely.

MG: The issue of trust is something that has kind of run through the conversation that we've had and to a lot of people, whether it's about security, whether it's about the ethics of the company and what it might be doing, whether it's about how it operates, whether it's about what's happening to Canadians who are being held in China right now, goes back to the issue of trust. So I'll end with that, which is what I started with. Why should Canadians trust this company?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: They should trust us because we've been operating here legally for 10 years.

MG: But in future, I'll ask again. Why should Canadians trust this company in the future?

ALYKHAN VELSHI: I mean, you can either judge us on our record in Canada or you can judge us based on the sort of the rhetoric of the Trump administration. Right? I think that ultimately decisions have to be made based on facts and facts need to be verified. But it's unfair to judge Huawei in Canada based on criteria that is unrelated to what we've actually done in Canada and how we operate in Canada, which is openly, transparently and in compliance with the law.

MG: Alykhan Velshi, I appreciate your time. Thank you.

ALYKHAN VELSHI: Thanks for having me.

MG: That's Alykhan Velshi. He's the vice president of corporate affairs for Huawei Canada. This is The Current on CBC Radio One. My name's Matt Galloway. One of the people raising the alarm about Huawei in this country is Margaret McCuaig-Johntson. She's a senior fellow at the China Institute at the University of Alberta and has worked with the federal government for more than 35 years. She's also a past president of the Canada-China Friendship Society. Margaret, good morning to you.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Good morning.

MG: What do you make of what you've just heard from Ali Khan Velshi of Huawei Canada?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Wow. There are a lot of things that he's saying just kind of dismissing concerns about security and China's intentions in getting Huawei throughout the world. So I've got a lot of concerns with what he said.

MG: One of the things he said is that Huawei is a private company, that it's not an arm of the Chinese government. There has been reporting and research that suggests that that may not be the case. What do you think?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, it's 1 percent owned by Meng Wanzhou's father, Ren Zhengfei, and the other 99 percent, as you said, is owned by a trade union committee, which is managed by and accountable to Communist Party officials. And so, like other trade union trade unions in China, it's state controlled. They give some of their employees, those that have been there for more than three years, an extra bonus payment. And they try to look at that as if it's profits on a share, but the employees can't monetize any ownership. They can't sell their shares to others, as you would in a normal company.

MG: Why does this matter? The ownership piece?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, the ownership doesn't matter so much as the control. And so if the the control of trade union committees is by the party, then you look back to the connection between the party and the government, which is there's no difference, essentially.

MG: What about in this country, is Huawei Canad a Canadian company in your eyes?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, it's like any international company that sets up a branch and they've got specific things they've been doing in Canada primarily, R and D, as well as providing some 3G and 4G equipment. But the home office in China is where the equipment is made and where the company gets its broad direction and priority.

MG: I guess in part it matters because people are wondering who's going to be calling the shots if Huawei Canada's is as deeply involved as it wants to be in helping to build the 5G network here.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Right. And you mentioned the national intelligence law. Well, he said we've had that for the whole ten years that Huawei's been in Canada. In fact, the new national intelligence law came out in 2017. And as you said it, it requires companies to spy if they're requested to do so and to keep it secret. And it also has a third section to that part of legislation that it protects the organization. The state will protect the organization that's assisted with the national intelligence work.

MG: So when Alykhan Velshi says that the company wouldn't comply with that new national intelligence law, your reaction to that?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: They would have to and we would never know because they have to keep it secret. I have 37 years of reading and writing legislation in my work in government and the section of the act is crystal clear and it's new. So there's obvious intent. China could reassure us and reassure other countries that have the same concern by rescinding that section, but they haven't done so. And 52 percent of Huawei's business is in China. So, of course, they would do what they were told. And in fact, I'd also add there was a study done in July of last year that identified more than 100 middle level Huawei China staff with direct intelligence and military connection.

MG: And so what should just briefly, before we take a break, what should we make of that?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, I think the intent is clear that in the long term they want to use this platform as a tool for spying on other countries.

MG: There are a lot of questions around trust as I asked Alykhan Velshi. I want to ask you about trust as well. I hope you can stick with us. Margaret McCuaig-Johnston is speaking to us about Huawei in Canada. She is a senior fellow at the China Institute at the University of Alberta. We're going to pick this conversation up, coming up after a short newsbreak. That's in about 90 seconds time. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. We're back in just a moment. Stick around.

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MG: Good morning, I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to The Current. And I'm continuing my conversation with Margaret McCuaig-Johnston, senior fellow at the China Institute at the University of Alberta. We're talking about Huawei in Canada, especially about the prospect of that company being able to build our new 5G network, sort of the future of the Internet in this country. You said just before the news, Margaret, that some of the makeup of the employees and the alignment of Huawei would allow it, perhaps the potential to spy into other countries. Tell me more about that and what would lead you to believe that?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, I think what we've seen certainly in the last year is that China has proven its malevolent actions against Canada. And so a Canadian decision can't just be taken based on technology and how well it works or on the reassurances of Mr. Ren and Mr. Velshi. We wouldn't be discussing this at all if China were a transparent and collaborating country, but it's been proven to be anything but. So if you can imagine, if they had access right now to our IT system and by connection to our electricity grid, those would be two very powerful tools to turn the screws on us, even more powerful than kidnapping our citizens and banning our products. And in fact, there are other options. He talks about you know, Canada can't wall itself off from from China or the rest of the world. No, of course not, but we can choose to have safe technology in our critical infrastructure and Nokia is made in Finland and Ericsson is made in Sweden,.

MG: Although both of them do manufacturing in China as well.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Yes, they do, but they're you know, he talks about we wouldn't be able to have access to it once it's installed. One of the things that we're concerned about is not just the back doors and, you know, they always have the company always has to be able to do updates and fixes through back doors. So they would continuously into the future be involved, but also the ability to put a bug in to the system and cover it up and have it released at a later date or a complete shutdown of the system. So those are some of the concerns we've heard from the cyber people at Homeland Security.

MG: There are concerns about surveillance in American tech companies. You think of Google, you think of Microsoft, you think of Facebook and the amount of data that they've hoovered up from all of us and who knows where that's gone? What is so different about what China is doing?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: The difference is the malicious intent and the threats. You talked about the Chinese ambassador talking about repercussions if we don't accept Huawei and China's vice minister of foreign affairs, Lu Yucheng, has threatened that if Ms. Meng isn't released, there will be grave consequences that the Canadian side should be accountable for. So this is a very different country than an American based country or European based country. And, you know, there's a sense by some who look at this that the risk can be managed. So what risk would we be comfortable accepting? 1 percent? 5 percent or some unknown amount? Personally, I don't want to have the possibility of security risk in our critical IT.

MG: Huawei has been in this country for a long time and there are elements of its technology already in the wireless networks that we use. Alykhan Velshi says there haven't been any complaints about security or other matters in the time that Huawei has been operating in this country. So shouldn't we take that as some measure of reassurance?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, two points on that. First of all, recall, the security legislation says that they have to keep it secret. But secondly, their employees haven't been caught stealing other countries, IP and trade secrets and technology design in other countries. And I was listening the other day to an interview with the president of Huawei UK and when he was asked about that, he said, well, that's what all sophisticated countries do. And that's supposed to reassure us? They just fired recently a senior manager in Poland who was caught stealing IP and so the response of the company is to fire them. And just to say, oh, that was a rogue employee, that wasn't the real Huawei.

MG: Decision from the Canadian government is expected at some point in time people believe this year, perhaps early on this year, about what will happen with 5G and who will be awarded that contract. What do you expect the Canadian government to do?

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Well, I very, very sincerely hope that they will decide to exclude Huawei from competition, and they could do that either by a complete ban or do it by the standards setting that Huawei can't meet. My fear in this and I've been, as I said, in government for 37 years, my fear is often when things like these are issues like these are put to politicians, to the cabinet. You have an option of let's go full bore in this direction or don't do a thing, you know, have it completely stopped or we recommend ministers, this middle position and a middle position would be try to let Huawei in on part of the system and keep trying to protect other parts of the system. And the problem is that 5G doesn't work like that. 4G and 3G do where you can protect the core., but you know, 5G is a more sophisticated system where you have to be able to move, sensitive storage is at many different parts of the system and you have to be able to make adjustments as necessary throughout the system to operate it at maximum efficiency. And so you can't have for Huawei in 5G plus another company. It wouldn't work effectively.

MG: Of course, the context of this decision is that there are Canadians who are being held in China. Many people believe because of the arrest of Huawei's CFO here in this country.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: That's right. And I've been collaborating with China for 40 years, since my first visit in 1979. And I was in China when Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor were detained and my own locked suitcases were searched. And so I decided when I got back, I would speak out against the detentions. I think it's outrageous that a country that wants to be a world leader, that wants to be a superpower and engages in this kind of medieval behaviour.

MG: Margaret, we'll leave it there. It's good to speak with you. Thank you.

MARGARET MCCUAIG-JOHNSTON: Thanks.

MG: Margaret McCuaig-Johnston, senior fellow at the China Institute at the University of Alberta and past vice president of the Canada China Friendship Society. Your thoughts on this would be welcome. You can reach us through the website cbc.ca/thecurrent or on Twitter @TheCurrentCBC.

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Newfoundland begins the big dig

Guests: Gus Penton, Brian Murphy, Terry Roberts

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VOICE: A huge chunk of snow came down smack into the back of our house and the house next door. It went right through the window of the house next door, tore the window and the window frame out. Dumped a ton of snow, but I mean thank God nobody was killed. But I've never seen it snow like this. I mean I lived here for 35 years and I've never seen anything remotely like this amout of snow.

MG: Safe to say that Chris Brookes of St. John's isn't the only person who's never seen anything like this. Nobody has. Much of Newfoundland hit by a record amount of snow, more than 80 centimetres. More came last night. Just what they needed. The federal government has mobilized the military. The big dig has begun. Gus Penton is on Fogo Island, off the northeast coast of Newfoundland. Gus, good morning.

GUS PENTON: Loud and clear. Matt Galloway, The Current.

MG: What does it look like there Gus? How much snow do you have around you?

GUS PENTON: We have Matt, it's still coming. Matt, it's fast and furious. It's relentless. It don't stop.

MG: What's the dig like? I mean, are the roads passable? Can you get out or what does it look like?

GUS PENTON: Oh, yeah, we're pretty good here now. But what happens in a storm like that, it we Newfoundlanders are not afraid of winter or storm. But what happened in this one was that the conditions were right. You had the wind, the snow was coming fast and furious and you had the amount. And it was not the storm, it's actually the dangers of the storm. You have your electricity and stuff, right? Like the heating and that, and then people are using the generators. You got carbon monoxide and stuff and fire, right? And visibility was a big thing. You have to have floodlights, big lights. You can't see when it's dark and the visibility was a hand before you, you couldn't see it.

MG: We've seen some of the photos of what it was like the morning after. What did you wake up to?

GUS PENTON: Oh, man, it was one house just a chimney!

MG: Just the chimney?

GUS PENTON: Just the chimney. And, you know, years ago, the old fellows used to say to us, that they'd put a line. Now, they didn't have them years ago. They're talking about global warming now, which is right, but years ago, they'd put a line on from house to house, and they had the stables where they kept their livestock and stuff. And in order to get to them, they put a line on, and they'd follow the line, because it was that bad and the visibility. Had no electricity or nothing then either, right? So they'd follow the line to their, yeah, and the houses, getting back and forth to the houses. It was that bad. That's years ago, you're talking about a hundred years ago.

MG: You see a storm like this and people, I mean as you mentioned, people are up against it and there are serious conditions, but people also end up banding together. How did you see neighbours and friends and people in the community come together to help each other out?

GUS PENTON: Matt, it's good and that's what we got to deal with the world. We're in an awful state now. You have Australia burning, you have the storms here. You have the wars in the Middle East. If we don't get control of it, young people do not, you've got a good like the radio and The Current. You've got to update people on stuff and keep the message and keep the conversation going. Cause the younger people are more relaxed. They're on their technologies, they're on their iPads and other stuff, which is right. Technology is excellent, but you have to teach him that these things can happen. Mother Nature is powerful and the minds, we gotta get brilliant minds got to run the world. The governments are good, but you gotta have brilliant minds in government. You were just talking about Huawei now, the United States don't dictate to us in Canada. We're losing a lot of business. They're a rich country. they're doing OK. And they should dismiss that case. We go on with the 5G and I think Trudeau got it in his mind. And we go on with the 5G because we're losing the business and stuff. And the states is dictating to Canada. He's a bully.

MG: He's not out there shovelling. You're out there the one that has to do the shovelling. You ever seen anything like this before?

GUS PENTON: Well, I'll tell you what, no it happened before. Like I said, it was years ago — not this storm now, it subsided a bit now. And like I say, we're not afraid of winter. We're a resilient crowd, we'll go through winter and a storm. It was the visibility and the conditions in this one, in an emergency case. You've got people on dialysis, medical watch. St John's is wicked like in there , and the spaces where to put them and that. But you've got dialysis. I had a sister on dialysis for years and stuff, went back and forth to St John's, but it's the emergency, in case of fire. Like I'm burning wood as my source of heat, and if I get up some chimney fire, that's like tar when it catches. So that makes you uneasy and makes it stressful.

MG: And it's still snowing?

GUS PENTON: And it's still snowing today, but it subsided. So I'm going out now. But to top it all off, I'm out now shovelling and I got a bit hungry. So I came in, and you know the beans and wieners are excellent. So I open them up, and no wieners.

MG: All that work and no wieners in the tin?

GUS PENTON: No weiners in the tin! And man wasn't I disappointed. And so anyway, I ate them and it gave me some more energy, but it won't stop. But anyway, this is what I'm saying, you got to have the supplies and you got to have the stuff. And we use generator, but our hizil is good. We're under hizil here. And hizil is excellent. They updated the lines. And I've got to make a proposition to you now. They updated the lines here because we've got a five star inn. You've got to come visit us.

MG: I will. I love the Fogo Islands. It's a beautiful place. And you've got your shovelling ahead of you. You'll need your energy. I'll let you get back to digging yourself out. Gus, it's good to talk to you.

GUS PENTON: Listen, how is Anna Maria Tremonti doing?

MG: She's great. She's great and she's probably happy that she's not buried in snow, although we have a little bit here in Toronto as well. Gus, thank you.

GUS PENTON: Matt, you're doing good work.

MG: I appreciate it. Gus Penton is a resident of Fogo Island, beautiful place in Newfoundland. And as you heard, the snow continues there. St. John's took a wallop from that snow. And there has been a state of emergency in that city since Friday. The schools are closed, the stores are closed, businesses are closed, roads are still impassible. The ploughs have been out since Saturday. Brian Murphy, co-owner of U-Bert Murphy Ltd., a construction and snow plowing company. Popular man, I would think, Brian Murphy. He's in Mount Pearl, Newfoundland, just a little bit west of St. John's. Brian, good morning to you.

BRIAN MURPHY: Yes, good morning.

MG: What's it like out there now?

BRIAN MURPHY: It's overcast. Well, it was more last night. What a bit of snow we had last night. Getting quite slippery when it got colder again.

MG: Tell me about the cleanup. What time did you hit the streets this morning?

BRIAN MURPHY: 3 a.m. our crew went out.

MG: And what were you up against? We've seen some of the images of the snow, but just describe what it looked like when you went out with the plough.

BRIAN MURPHY: It was just huge drifts everywhere. The city and the townare keeping ahead.They've made cuts made through some of the side streets, there's just an awful lot of snow and it's going to be time consuming to push it back.

MG: You see those side streets, I mean again, we've seen these pictures. The streets are narrow. The snow is so high. Where does the snow go? Where can you move it to?

BRIAN MURPHY: Well, basically throw it to one side and just get a path out through the middle and eventually we'll get around and get the blowers in and blowing it back. It's only a small area you got to deal with and you just got to get a pass through first to make sure everything is safe, that you can get your emergency crews and whatnot. And then after that it's going to be a time consuming venture, I would think.

MG: And where's all the snow going? I know that some of the that the government has said that you can put some of the snow into the harbour now.

BRIAN MURPHY: Yes. They got permission off the federal government to use the harbour once again.

MG: You ever seen anything like this before?

BRIAN MURPHY: We've seen large snowfall. I've never seen the wind as bad as what it was. If you happen to get out the machine, all the snow actually hurt your face. When it hits you. It was blowing that hard and it actually compacted from the wind. And the snow when you're pushing it now, it breaks up the block, as opposed to being fluffy with it.

MG: And that's what created those huge drifts?

BRIAN MURPHY: Yeah. Yeah. The wind was that time before we went out, at times you couldn't even see the blocker on the machine?

MG: Really?

BRIAN MURPHY: There was zero visibility.

MG: What about it, I mean, you've been out working, trying to plow the streets. What about at your place? Were you snowed in like everybody else?

BRIAN MURPHY: Yes, I was fortunate enough to be able to take the loader home with me, and I do private parking lots. I'm not doing much street work out these days.

MG: So how did you get out of your place?

BRIAN MURPHY: I had a front end loader home, and it was, it took a couple of tries to get out, but I managed to get down over a big hill. There's quite a bit of snow, around five and six foot drifts, eight foot drifts. It's a challenge.

MG: Gus was saying that people aren't afraid of winter, but this is something else. How if you talk to people, what are people's moods like? Do they feel beaten down by this or resilient and willing to kind of, you know, dig themselves out and on you go?

BRIAN MURPHY: Oh, not at all, Everybody are pretty peppy as I see. Everybody in the community are getting together and shoving each other out and what I can see now is everybody is getting along pretty well.

MG: And the army's on its way. Do you think that having the military there will help?

BRIAN MURPHY: Of course. There's a lot of seniors in the older parts of town and what not and the army would be quite useful to help dig us all out. We well appreciate it.

MG: You've been up since 3. How long of a day will you have in front of you?

BRIAN MURPHY: Around 3 this evening we'll give it up and plan out again tomorrow morning.

MG: You have a lot of work ahead of you. Good luck.

BRIAN MURPHY: Alright, thank you very much.

MG: Thanks. Brian Murphy, co-owner of U-Bert Murphy Ltd. It's a construction and snow plowing company. He's in Mount Pearl, Newfoundland, just a little bit west of St. John's. Ottawa is sending in the Canadian military to Newfoundland and Labrador. Here is the minister of defence, Harjit Sajjan.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: What you'll see is about 150 to 200 personnel on the ground ready to provide support. This could surge up to anywhere between 250 to 300 in the coming days.

MG: What to expect in those coming days? To help answer that, I'm joined by CBC reporter Terry Roberts in St. John's. Terry, good morning.

TERRY ROBERTS: Good morning, Matt. And you're making me follow Gus Penton. I don't know if I can live up to that.

MG: He had quite a tale to tell. When you look out the window this morning, what does it look like?

TERRY ROBERTS: Well, not only did I look out the window, I had to walk to work this morning. Of course, we're in a state of emergency. And it took me about a 30 minute walk to get into work this morning. And I noticed just so many driveways that are still, you know, untouched. And we had another 10 plus centimetres of snow last night follow sort of followed by some drizzle. So, you know, the situation, trying to move that's no is even more difficult today than it was yesterday.

MG: What does that state of emergency mean practically in the province?

TERRY ROBERTS: Well, it basically means and it's a good thing that it was called, because it basically tells people, look, stay off the roads. Keep your vehicles where they are. Do not move them. And if you own a business, lock your doors, keep your employees home. And that's what it did. And, you know, I have to give credit to the city of St. John's and officials who very quickly on Friday, you know, they knew. They sensed that something very serious was coming because the weather forecasts were telling us that a weather bomb was hitting us. And thankfully, they called that state of emergency and I think people really heeded that, those words really resonated with people. People stayed home, stayed off the roads. So we didn't have as much chaos as might have been the case otherwise.

MG: Was your sense that people were prepared for this? I mean, again, the state of emergency is one thing and staying off the roads, but schools are closed and businesses and stores are closed and were people loaded up with food and ready to go?

TERRY ROBERTS: Well, that's you know, that's a good question. Personally, I was. I'm able bodied. You know, I have two strong young teenage boys. We were prepared for this. You know, we spent a lot of hours helping our neighbours out yesterday. And I noticed a lot of that going on in our streets. I'm from a small town in Newfoundland where I grew up, at a time when you knew your neighbour because you depended on your neighbour a good many times. My mother said, go next door and pick up a tin of carnation milk from Miss Chapman. And I did. I remember doing that. And there were times yesterday when I saw 7 and 8 people just flocking to a driveway and helping move all the snow. And it's a community, that sense a community is back again. It's hasn't been that way in this generation because everyone is so busy. You get in your car, you go to work, you come home, you're at the rink or wherever. Lot of times you don't even know your neighbour.

MG: You saw that sense of community emerge as the story of Joshua Wall began to trickle out. He's a young man who's been missing since Friday. What's the latest on that search?

TERRY ROBERTS: Well, that's a story I've been covering since Friday evening. When I first noticed a post, desperate post from Joshua's mother on Facebook. Here's, let me set the stage for you. On Friday morning, josh Wall, 26, he's a resident of a very rural community called Roaches Line in Conception Bay. He has anxiety issues and he wanted to go to the hospital. And but, of course, that couldn't happen. He didn't have his medication. So there was no way they were going to get out and get to a hospital. And then later in the in the in the morning on Friday, he was feeling better and he tells his mom and dad that, look, I'm going to go visit a friend of mine in a community called, another community called Marysville. Marysville by road, it's a 20 minute drive. I'm very familiar with this area. I used to live there. I did a lot of snowmobiling and off roading in this area. Josh decides that he would take a backcountry path to Marysville. And so one o'clock on Friday is the last we heard of Josh. He sent a text message to the friend he was going to visit, telling him, sending him his location, that location put him in the back country, in the wilderness as a major historic blizzard was ramping up in this area. And a very ominous message. I'm lost. The battery power on my phone is about to die. That was one o'clock on Friday. We're approaching 72 hours now since we've heard from 26-year-old Josh Wall. There's been the third day of an official search is now getting underway. There will be air and ground search teams once again today scouring the area in conception Bay to try and find that young man. I've been talking to his parents routinely since Friday. They're, as you would imagine, they feel so helpless about this because they've repeatedly, they've tried to go in the woods themselves to find their son, only to be turned back by snow, they say up to their shoulders. So a desperate situation. Still no word. They're hopeful that Josh has somehow found shelter and that, you know, he might have been trapped inside of a cabin or some kind of a structure and he can't get out. And you know that there might be a success story here. You know, the ideal situation is that that's what happened and maybe today there will be a successful outcome. We're all keeping our fingers crossed for Josh Wall.

MG: Absolutely. Just before I let you go, is there a sense as to when the cleanup will make meaningful progress? Those roads still closed and still a lot of snow out and about.

TERRY ROBERTS: Yeah, well, it's going to be many days. I know just from walking in this morning. You know, everyone I remember in 99, when Toronto called in the army.

MG: Indeed. We'll never live it down in this city.

TERRY ROBERTS: And I guarantee you, I was part, we joked about that. We still joke about it today. But, Matt, the situation here in St. John's, Newfoundland and eastern Newfoundland is this. We're a very greying society here in this province. I know that, I know the numbers from last year. We had 3700 births here, we had almost 5000 deaths. We have our best and brightest are leaving. The out migration is a word here once again. And I can tell you that a lot of vulnerable people exist here because, you know, we're an old population. So I can see a valuable a very valuable role for the military to help our most vulnerable.

MG: And as you said, people are helping each other out as well. Terry, good luck and safe walk home.

TERRY ROBERTS: Thank you, Matt.

MG: Terry Roberts, CBC reporter in St. John's. A lot of snow there. That's our program for today. We'll leave you with the sounds of people in Newfoundland and Labrador during that storm, accompanied by the music of one of the province's great groups, Great Big Sea. Despite the lyrics, these are anything, but ordinary days. I'm Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to The Current and we'll talk to you tomorrow.

[Song: "Ordinary Day" by Great Big Sea]

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Jan. 20, 2020 episode transcript

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