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The AIH Transcript for January 16, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: A charged atmosphere. A Democratic senator says chills went down his spine at the opening of Donald Trump's impeachment trial — as yet more evidence emerged.

CH: Haven and Hell. A new lawsuit charges Jeffrey Epstein with using his private estate in the U.S. Virgin Islands as a sex-trafficking hideaway — where he abused hundreds of young women and girls.

CO: Over the line. Months after he snuck across the border, a former Canadian soldier who is believed to be a neo-Nazi recruiter has been arrested. Our guest says it's a big coup for the FBI.

CH: Pulling no punches. Together, they became the first black tag team in pro-wrestling. And now, Tony Atlas says the legacy of the late Canadian wrestler Rocky Johnson is getting short shrift.

CO: Deep roots. Even though it survived for more than 200 million years, the so-called dinosaur tree is critically endangered. Thankfully, Australian firefighters have saved the last of the Wollemi pines.

CH: And… good thing the evidence wasn't shredded. While investigating a car pelted with processed cheese, police in Texas discover a silver lining: the slices make excellent fingerprint collectors.

CH: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that figures it wasn't Swiss — or their case would be full of holes

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Impeachment: Senator, Patrik Mathews arrested, Rocky Johnson obit

Impeachment: Senator

Guest: Chris Murphy

CH: Today, Donald Trump's impeachment trial formally began in the U.S. Senate. And if the President has his way, the proceedings will come to a rapid end. Now, that may or may not be wishful thinking. But in the meantime, there are new allegations against the President — this time, from Lev Parnas. He's a Soviet-born businessman and associate of Mr. Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani. Chris Murphy is a Democratic Senator from Connecticut. We reached him in Washington, DC.

CO: Senator Murphy, on Twitter today, you wrote that a chill ran down your spine as the articles of impeachment were read out in this Senate chamber. What were you thinking?

CHRIS MURPHY: You know, it felt very different on the Senate floor today than any other day during my seven years in the Senate. This is an incredibly serious moment. And the charges against the president are as serious as they come — using taxpayer dollars in order to try to bribe a foreign government to help the President Reagan American election. To my mind, that's not allowable in democracy. And you know my hope is that we will sort of all understand the weight of the responsibility and decide to come to a agreement between Republicans and Democrats to run a fair trial. And that means having things like witnesses and document requests, and that will be the work ahead of us next week.

CO: Right. But the sense is — and this is a Canadian observation that many people share — is that the outcome is going to be the same. That he's going to be cleared of these charges in the end no matter what you do. So what do you think can be accomplished with this trial?

CM: I mean, that may be the case. But we are seeing new damning revelations by the day. Remember, these revelations coming from Lev Parnas are only partial. He's submitted a lot of information and a lot of his personal devices that have not yet been transcribed. So you know we don't know what other shoes are going to drop here. Yeah, I think there's also a sense in the Senate that most Republicans have already decided to acquit the president. But new information may change their disposition.

CO: Really, you think that's a possibility? Do you see anything that would indicate that we may see anything but a predictable outcome at the end of this trial?

CM: I think there's a number of Republicans who want to see witnesses. You know, I think a week or so ago, a lot of people would have guessed that Mitch McConnell would have already moved to shut down witnesses. He hasn't. In fact, he was required by Republicans in his caucus to change the rules to actually require votes on witnesses before we vote on acquittal or removal. So things have been changing. And you know I'm not I'm not telling you that I think that chances you know are terribly good that a whole bunch of Republicans decide to remove the president. I just don't think that this game is over.

CO: When you mentioned Lev Parnas, extraordinary remarks, he's made documents that have been revealed about the degree to which Mr. Giuliani and Lev Parnas were working together on this, and trying to get the Ukrainians to announce they were going to do an investigation into the Biden family. But at the same time, you know that Lev Parnas is charged with making false statements and conspiracy. So how can we trust him?

CM: Well, you know, that's the case with all massive conspiracies. The way that you get to the people in charge is by first going after the folks who are implementing the crimes. And so I just don't find it you know a credible argument to say that all of the folks who are implementing the crimes that were potentially ordered by the president of the United States shouldn't be listened to. In fact, every good prosecutor starts with the people who are on the bottom rungs of the conspiracy, the middle rungs of the conspiracy and work their way up to the people who actually ordered it. I think that's probably what we're seeing happen right now.

CO: What else have you seen and heard in these past two days that convinced you that this is a necessary trial?

CM: Well, I didn't need to be convinced. I mean, I didn't need any additional evidence to be convinced. I heard 12 witnesses testify before the House of Representatives that the president of the United States and people that work for him were trying to use taxpayer funds to convince the Ukrainian government to investigate the president's political opponents. So I don't need any more evidence. But I obviously have come to the conclusion that my Republican colleagues do. And so I want to make sure that they have the opportunity to look at all of that evidence before they make a decision to acquit the president. I just I don't think there's any question as to what happened here. And I've been pretty open about the fact that I think that the conduct that we have seen — that to my mind has been proven already — is worthy of impeachment. I am open to exculpatory evidence if the president provides it. I haven't seen it yet.

CO: A lot of people are asking why didn't you continue then in the inquiry you had going? Why didn't the Democrats in the House continue with their inquiry and their investigation that a lot of things clearly needed to come out, a lot more questions, a lot more people they needed to speak to, a lot of evidence they even had. So why did they get shut down so early when a lot of the work that you want the Senate now to do could have been done in the House?

CM: Well, I think it's probably two answers to that question. And the first is I'm not in the House of Representatives, and so I can't answer for them. My job is to try this case in the Senate. But I think it's likely that they had gotten enough evidence already to prove to their satisfaction that a massive conspiracy to defraud taxpayers and jeopardize our national security had happened. And so once they had sufficient evidence that constituted proof, they moved forward with impeachment.

CO: But do you wish the Democrats had pushed more? They obviously had a few good leads they could have pursued that may or may not be pursued in the Senate. Do you do you wish that your colleagues in the House had pushed this harder?

CM: Well, there's urgency here. You know, this trial is all about the president trying to rig the 2020 election. And so, in order to stop the president from continuing to solicit foreign interference in an ongoing election, we had to move fast. So again, the House could have decided to take the president to court. Those court cases probably would have lasted for months and months, into the summer and fall. And the president would have used that time likely to continue to try to solicit foreign interference. So I think we had to move this process, you know, in an expeditious manner, given the fact that we're coming up against the 2020 election.

CO: We will be watching this proceed through the Senate. Senator Murphy, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CM: Thank you.

CH: That was Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy. He was in Washington DC.

[Music: Ambient]

Patrik Mathews arrested

Guest: Ben Makuch

CH: Four months ago, Patrik Mathews' car was found near the Canada-U.S. border. But they couldn't find Mr. Mathews. The ex-reservist and alleged neo-Nazi recruiter from Manitoba was officially off the grid — until he wasn't. Today, the FBI arrested and charged Mr. Mathews, and two other men, with firearms offences, among other things. It was just last August that Patrik Mathews had his cover blown. A journalist in Winnipeg reported on his alleged involvement with The Base, a neo-Nazi hate group trying to recruit members in Canada. We covered the story at the time. Mr. Mathews then fled to the United States, and went dark. But today, he was arrested in Delaware, just days before he was supposed to attend a pro-gun rally in Virginia. Ben Makuch is a national security correspondent for Vice. We reached him in New York City.

CO: Ben, this man, Patrick Matthews, seems to have been off the grid for some months. How significant is this arrest in Delaware?

BEN MAKUCH: I think this arrest is significant for a variety of reasons. I mean, not just for Patrik Matthews in this whole saga of where he's been, and where he hasn't been over the last few months. But the other thing that this is really pointing to is just how serious federal authorities are taking the threat of domestic terrorism from far-right groups in United States — especially in systems like the lead up to a rally in Virginia that's happening — which is expected to draw some extremists. So it's indicative for all the sources that I have that this is a serious matter for the FBI. And Patrik Matthews is entangled in it.

CO: And can you just outline for us what the FBI has actually accused him of doing?

BM: Accused him of illegally entering the country, as well as being a part of two other individuals who are members of a group that I've been reporting on for a long time called The Base — which is, for lack of a better term, a domestic terrorist organization with international ties. And stockpiling over a thousand rounds of ammunition, and creating an assault rifle, legally. And the oddest charge: accused of attempting to create DMT — a hallucinogenic drug.

CO: You have been investigating terrorist groups and neo-Nazi groups for some time. How does his role, how does what Patrik Matthews was up to, compares with other investigations you've done? Was he more involved, was it similar?

BM: Very similar. You have your garden variety far-right, alt-right individuals and groups that patrol streets. But the groups I've been reporting on like Adamwaffen Division and The Base, these are people that get into encrypted chat networks and discuss performing attacks on people of colour and the Jewish people. Also, creating what they believe to be a race war that's oncoming. And when it comes to Patrik Matthews, his role in this group, it shows the evolution of not just the federal authorities and their interests in this burgeoning threat. But also, these groups are evolving. This is an individual who was a part of the Canadian Forces. He illegally entered the United States with the help of a neo-Nazi domestic terror group, that then harboured and hit him — as my reporting has shown — over the course of months without the federal authorities intervening until obviously now they have.

CO: He was — as you point out — he is an ex-reservist with the Canadian Forces. What skills did he learn that he is possibly bringing into this organization of neo-Nazis?

BM: Well, we reported it exclusively in December that we knew that Mr. Matthews was in the United States being harboured by The Base. And during that time, we reported that he also attended something called a hate camp — which is essentially a paramilitary training camp that The Base undertook in Georgia in fall 2019 with upwards of 12 members, who all were very heavily-armed. And he helped train other members. He also we know had particular weapons training from the Canadian Armed Forces, but also had some explosives training as well.

CO: But what evidence do you have that he was actually involved in something more serious than being a member in something and being with other men who had hateful tendencies, but at this point, have been charged with weapons possession, getting involved with hallucinogenic drugs, and being in the country illegally? So what evidence do you have that it was more serious than that?

BM: The Department of Justice mentions in their press release that the group was discussing attacks against minority groups in their encrypted network. I could tell you that you know we've had eyes in this group before in the past, and we've observed with what they discussed in closed ways. This group was — and has been — quite active in this space. And they've undertaken things like paramilitary training camps involving weapons. And all this is in support of something they believe to be a race war or an insurgency against the state. I can tell you as well that groups like this have also been interested in what will happen in the 2020 election. And they see this as a moment of accelerationism of race war. And these arrests I think are the FBI getting ahead of it.

CO: Is there any evidence though, have you seen anything that indicates they're actually going to go through with these plans? Or was this the rhetoric of a group of men who were living some kind of a fantasy?

BM: So to be clear, I've never seen any evidence of Mr. Matthews planning terrorist attacks or anything of that nature — and nor have I reported anything like that. But there have been general discussions inside of these groups on something called direct action — which is code for terrorist attacks. One of the key components of this was to be able to perform things like assassinations or bombings without being caught.

CO: Well, the RCMP soon after that [chuckling] lost contact Mr. Matthews. He went over the border. But I can tell you on my past experiences. The RCMP is particularly good at policing and understanding domestic terrorism — whether it be a jihadist international network or a group like The Base. But the proof is in the pudding [chuckling] that the FBI has taking this quite seriously and has now gone so far as to level Mr. Matthews with charges and arrest him.

CO: Do you think that if the allegations against these men, if it had been ISIS and not neo-Nazis, do you think the police would have treated this case differently?

BM: Well, Carol, I can tell you that, as you know, I've reported on ISIS and Al-Qaeda. And I've experienced just as a reporter pressures from the state and interest from the state. When you have a member of an insurgent group like The Base crosses over an international border, and it's reported, just imagine if that had been an ISIS fighter the type of manhunt that would have ensued if that had happened? I think it's not a departure from reality to think that it would have been taken far more seriously.

CO: Ben, we will be following the developments here. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BM: Thanks so much for having me.

CH: Ben Makuch reports on national security for Vice News. We reached him in New York City.

[Music: Ambient]

Rocky Johnson obit

Guest: Tony Atlas

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: Now coming down the aisle, weighing 237 pounds. Washington’s own Rocky Johnson

ANNOUNCER TWO: The Rock getting a big ovation.

CH: That's what it sounded like as wrestler Rocky "The Soulman" Johnson strode towards the ring back in 1984 in Maryland. The Nova Scotia-born athlete was one half of the Soul Patrol, pro wrestling's first all-black championship tag-team. Ricky Johnson earned himself a reputation for dignity in a sport where dignity was in short supply. And then, Mr. Johnson turned his mind to training his son Dwayne, who's become better known as the actor, "The Rock." Yesterday, World Wrestling Entertainment announced that Rocky Johnson had died. Last year, he spoke to CBC Halifax about leaving a tough childhood in Nova Scotia, only to find himself fighting for a living in Toronto.

SOUNDCLIP

ROCKY JOHNSON: It was very tough. All I had was a couple of bucks, a suitcase, and determination. I wasn't bitter, I wasn’t mad, I wasn't upset. I just knew there was something out there, and I had to go up and I had to search for it until I found it. I got a room up there, then I went to Trinity Recreation Centre. I started boxing, and there happen to be a wrestler there. And we had a ring, and nobody showed up that night because just me and him because there was ice and snow and that. And he said come on and I'll show you a couple of holds — not known that he was going to use me for a punching bag. But he didn't hurt me — which he could have because I didn't know anything about wrestling. And then I got hooked on it.

CH: Rocky Johnson talking to CBC Halifax. Tony Atlas has reason to be thankful that Rocky Johnson got hooked on wrestling. When the two wrestlers joined forces they became the Soul Patrol. We reached Tony Atlas in Auburn, Maine.

CO: Tony, first of all, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

TONY ATLAS: Well, it feel like I didn't lose a friend. It felt like I lost a brother. Because back in 1975, you got to excuse my expression, but I’m gonna just tell it like it is. I met Rocky in Florida for the first time. And Rocky saw me sitting in the corner and everything. And I wanted to fight everybody, so nobody wanta get near me. So rocky came over, so I told him. He said what’s the problem? And I said I'm quitting this business. And he asked me why? I said I'm getting tired of every time I walk in the dressing room, somebody calls me a [expletive]. And I said I've been called [expletive] so many times that if somebody called me by my real name, I wouldn’t know what the hell he said. He said, Tony, he said I had to go through all that stuff too. He said they’re not going to stop. He said the best thing for you to do is you have to learn to ignore them. And he said you have to stand up for yourself. And Rocky had to fight racism his whole life. You know, you watch the way that man wrestled. you look at the way he was built. He had one of the best physiques in professional wrestling. One of the best drop kicks. He had everything going for him. Good looking guy. But he never got the push that the Caucasian wrestler got.

CO: So he said when we just heard that in that clip, he was describing going up to Toronto. His mother basically showed him the door when he was about 13, and he had to do it all on his own. What did he teach you? What was the most important lesson that you got from Rocky?

TA: Well, me and Rocky pretty much had the same upbringing. I left home when I was 14. Just about every black man during that time, they pretty much had that same upbringing. We were brought up to believe that okay, it was like this, Rocky could tell you the same thing if he was alive, God rest it. My mother told me that to be in third place as a black man, you had to be three-times better then the white person in first place. And that's why they never brought Rocky back because Rocky was a type of guy who would stand up for himself. With me, I let it build and build and build until I couldn’t handle it anymore and then I would explode — which got me in a lot of trouble. But Rocky, you know he always spoke up for himself. You know, sometimes he would wrestle a guy in the main event, and Rocky — the one that people paid to see — they’d give Rocky 500 dollars, and they'd give the guy that Rocky wrestled 1,500 dollars. And you know, Rocky, all he ever wanted in this business was equal equality for black wrestlers.

CO: Yeah, he’s had stories, his son has told stories of that kind of racism he encountered. And some of it is just really quite shocking. But what was he like in the ring? Tell us a bit more about the way he wrestled, his style, his skill.

TA: Well, I don't know if you ever noticed, but if you look at a match of Rocky Johnson. And then look at a match of Dwayne Johnson, they look like you're looking at the same person. Dwayne moves like his father, he wrestled like his father, he acts like a father. You know, he's got that same pride that his father had. So Dwayne is like a chip off the old block. He’s just bigger, and you know better looking. But other than that, you know he wrestled just like his dad. I mean Rocky was the type of guy never took his problems to the ring. Very, very fan-friendly — you know you take people that got his autograph and met him. You know, if Rocky gave a talking to you, he’d hold you at that table for hours, you know? [CO chuckles] You know, he loved his fans, you know? He was a great guy. Obviously, he was probably one of the best you know African-American wrestlers of the business. And only very few great African-American wrestlers, and you know BoBo Brazil is one of, Junkyard Dog, and Rocky Johnson. And then, after you name these people, you can't really name anybody else you know that was known all over the world.

CO: But you mentioned as you mentioned Rocky's son Dwayne. He's known as the Rock, Dwayne Johnson, and movie star and a wrestler — quite extraordinary. What did Rocky think of the success that his son had?

TA: He was very, very proud of his boy. He never used his son's success for his own gains. You know, he went on his own merits. He never tried to use his son to get bookings or to do anything. Now, I'm sitting here now at the hospital with my wife. My wife had a stroke six months ago. So I sit every evening with her. So she's sitting here listening to everything I say. She could tell you this too. Rocky’s wife used to call me to help get Rocky booked. And since his death, I must have got at least 20 or 30 phone calls. And I've told my wife just before you guys called me, I said that’s a damn shame. When that man was alive, nobody paid him any attention. They ignored him. I said that poor guy had to die to get attention.

CO: I'm sorry to hear that.

TA: It’s a shame. It’s a shame. If Rocky was never dead, I wouldn't be talking to you.

CO: If there if there's any particular memory of him after all the phone calls are done, what will be some image, some moment you cherish that you’ll remember?

TA: What I cherish about Rocky Johnson, that he stood up for himself as a man. And that was unthought-of in the 60s and the 70s for a black man to stand up for himself. So if you could take Muhammad Ali and Martin Luther King and put them together, you've got Rocky Johnson.

CO: Tony, I appreciate so much you talking about your friend with us, and helping us remember him. Thank you.

TA: You're welcome.

CO: Take care.

TA: All right.

CH: Tony Atlas was part of a pro-wrestling tag-team with Rocky "The Soulman" Johnson. We reached Mr. Atlas in Auburn Maine. Yesterday, World Wrestling Entertainment announced the death of Mr Johnson. And we have more on his story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

DL: Processed cheese fingerprints

CH: Dateline: Carrollton, Texas.

[Music: Dateline theme]

CH: The detective surveys the horrifying scene before him. It's so methodical — and yet, so utterly inhuman. He takes a deep breath and calls the station. "Better get the crime scene investigator down here," he says. "Looks like we got ourselves...a cheesing." The vandalism baffled and nauseated Carrollton Police: someone had covered a sedan with at least a baker's dozen of Kraft Singles — those eerily square, smooth processed cheese slices. The cheesing itself is not a crime. But there was other damage to the car. So they had a case. And it was Carrollton PD crime scene investigator Parker Powell got the call every cop dreads.

SOUNDCLIP

PARKER POWELL: The call was: hey, I've got some cheese prints. I heard maybe you can help us out. I said what?!

CH: You can hear how shaken he is. But, like any true professional, he swallowed his paralyzing horror, and got to work. Well, last week, the police issued a tweet: "Today, we learned two things: 1) Covering cars in cheese slices is apparently the new trend in criminal mischief; 2) Cheese slices produce GREAT fingerprints." That's not a shock, exactly: cheese slices are malleable. And now, the vandal may be about to find out just how lactose-intolerant law enforcement can be — because Mr. Powell found at least three perfect prints. Now, even if he loses two of them, it's just back to square one.

[Music: Jazz]

Part two: Epstein: island estate, Australia saving trees

Epstein: island estate

Guest: Denise George

CH: The extent of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged sex-trafficking network appears to be much larger than anyone knew. Fresh accusations of sexual abuse by the wealthy businessman are coming to light in a new lawsuit against his estate. It was filed yesterday by the attorney general of the U.S. Virgin Islands. It claims Mr. Epstein was trafficking hundreds of young women and girls on his private island there, until at least 2018. It accuses Mr. Epstein — who hanged himself while awaiting trial in a New York jail — of bringing girls as young as 11 to his estate. And that he kept a computer database to track them. Denise George is the attorney general of the U.S. Virgin Islands. We reached her in St. Croix.

CO: Ms. George, what have you learned about the scope of Jeffrey Epstein's alleged criminal activities in the Virgin Islands?

DENISE GEORGE: Well, after I came on board as attorney general in April of 2019, or I should say very soon after, I had received a number of inquiries from various local and national media — as well as information out there about oh, well, people presume or they suspect that there is a lot of criminal activity that was going on at St. James Island at the hands of Jeffrey Epstein. So what I've learned is that after I launched an investigation that Jeffrey Epstein was in the middle and actually the lead in carrying out a criminal enterprise involving the human-trafficking of young girls, young women, and young under-aged girls in sex-trafficking, as well as child abuse and sexual abuse and rape on the Little Saint James Island in particular in the Virgin Islands.

CO: These are two places, Little Saint James and Great Saint James are the two islands you’re going to be referring to. Who are the young women and girls who you believe were abused and trafficked in this case?

DG: Well, I'm not going to specifically name victims. However, these are persons who were victimized in the Virgin Islands, on the two islands that are privately owned by Jeffrey Epstein and his companies and his associates. And these are persons who were brought in and trafficked in to the Virgin Islands for that purpose.

CO: You have reason to believe that there were girls as young as 11 years old. What can you tell us? What are you able to tell us?

DG: Well, witnesses and persons that we've spoken to — including victims themselves — have revealed that there were other persons. SO the ages range from as young as 11 or 12 years old.

CO: And there's a distressing story of a 15-year-old girl who attempted to leave the island by swimming, trying to escape from that. What can you tell us about that case?

DG: What I can tell you is that based on the investigation, we were able to verify that, in fact, did occur.

CO: Obviously, there were people seeing this kind of activity — this trafficking operation — lots of signs that it was going on. Are you not, as an agent of the law in the Virgin Islands, alarmed that he was able to conduct this on large extent for such an extended period of time without being detected?

DG: Yeah, alarmed and outraged. But I really want to say also I cannot speak for what happened in the past in previous administrations. This is a new administration, and I came on in April. I don't know all that happened in the past. But what I do know is even if people are talking about oh, they believe these things are happening or discussing suspicions about what is going on, unless there's some kind of report or something to law enforcement — which I understand there had been no reports — criminal reports or criminal complaints to law enforcement to trigger any investigations. I would say one thing is that the islands and the way they are situated, as well as Epstein's power and wealth, it made it very conducive for him to be able to conceal his actions. Now, if you look at Little Saint James, it's like two miles off of Saint Thomas — the shores of Saint Thomas. And, of course, it's an island, so it’s surrounded by water. It's very secluded. He has total control. Even if a person or victim wanted to escape, they would have to swim — which is too dangerous to swim. So basically, you're almost like held captive there. And anyone — whether it's law enforcement or not, can’t just come on the property. This is private property. So I think what he did is he took advantage of that. He created this safe haven for himself to be able to conduct this kind of activity, keep them captive, and to be to shield himself from law enforcement scrutiny and public scrutiny.

Co: There are other cases against Mr. Epstein, even though he is deceased. One of them, in a U.S. case in civil court, an accuser who is saying that Prince Andrew, she names Prince Andrew as someone who was at this Caribbean island retreat owned by Mr. Epstein, and she was 17 at the time, and she alleges she had sex with Prince Andrew. Are there any other foreigners who may have been involved that you're investigating?

DG: Well, as I indicated, the investigation continues. We do follow the evidence in getting as much information as we can with respect to the criminal activity that that occurred here in the Virgin Islands.

CO: As we just pointed out, Mr. Epstein is dead. So what can you possibly accomplish with this lawsuit?

DG: This lawsuit is bright as civil enforcement action. As you see, we're able to sue the estate of Jeffrey Epstein, as well as the associated companies that were engaged in the criminal activity.

CO: Are victims that you are interviewing — the girls and women who are part of this suit — are they going to get any of the money, any of the compensation that you might be able to get through this lawsuit?

DG: It is a forfeiture action that's available to the government. However, under that statute, we are able to request that the court allow us to compensate victims for some of the compensation that we would receive.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there, Ms. George. Thank you.

DG: Oh, thank you. Oh, you're welcome.

CH: Denise George is the attorney general of the U.S. Virgin Islands. She was in St. Croix. Before his death, Jeffrey Epstein, through his lawyers, denied all the allegations against him. Prince Andrew has also denied all the allegations made about him. You can find more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Sterritt BMO bank update

CH: After repeatedly declining interview requests from CBC News, the Bank of Montreal has finally spoken to Angela Sterritt. Ms. Sterritt is the CBC reporter who recently broke the story that a Heiltsuk grandfather and his 12-year-old granddaughter were handcuffed on a visit to a Vancouver BMO branch in December. Maxwell Johnson says a bank employee called 9-1-1 over a supposed discrepancy with their identification. And when Vancouver Police showed up, Mr. Johnson and his granddaughter were quickly detained. BMO has already announced the establishment of an Indigenous Advisory Council in response to the incident. And Cameron Fowler says he understands the public's disappointment. Mr. Fowler is the President of North American Personal and Business Banking for the BMO Financial Group. Here's what he told Ms. Sterritt in an interview today.

SOUNDCLIP

CAMERON FOWLER: I personally am shocked and appalled by the situation that happened here — and more importantly, very, very sorry. People are angry, and they have every right to be. I'm accountable for this situation here. And I'll tell you that I'm determined to make things right. And that's exactly what we're doing here on the ground today. With respect to the situation, Angela, I mean, the story's been told a few times. December 20th, Mr. Johnson and his granddaughter entered the BMO branch. You'll know that in these processes, there's a validation of identification that's required to get accounts open. That's true for new and existing customers. It’s true in our bank. It's true in all in the industry. In this situation, we were unable to validate identification. And that's where the problems start. That's where we made our mistake. We phoned the police in that process. We should not have done, and for that, we're very, very sorry.

ANGELA STERRITT: The police, when they received the 9-1-1 call, were told that they were dealing with a 16-year-old South Asian girl, and her 50-year-old South Asian male. How did the bank come to the determination that they were dealing with two South Asian individuals?

CF: We've spent a quite a lot of time over the last few weeks, Angela, just making sure that we have the most robust view of the facts. That information is inconsistent with any information that we have regarding what actually happened. So I too have heard that in the media. You'll note that we haven't been spending time in the media in the early days. We've been focused on getting our facts together. And that's just not information that's consistent with our understanding of the situation.

AS: Are you saying that the police are lying about this?

CF: I'm just saying that I think it's terrific that there will be a full police review, and that everybody will have an understanding of the end-to-end situation — how tragic it is, and how we all handled it poorly. And how there's going to need to be some recommendations and some work that we can do together to ensure that this never happens again.

CH: Cameron Fowler is the President of North American Personal and Business Banking for the Bank of Montreal. He was speaking with CBC Vancouver's Angela Sterritt.

[Music: Instrumental]

Australia saving trees

Guest: Matt Kean

CH: It was a last stand for a last stand of trees. It took a secret government mission, and a lot of Australian firefighters, to save the last remaining grove of Wollemi pines from the bushfires in New South Wales. The so-called "dinosaur trees" have existed for up to 200 million years, and are critically endangered. Environment Minister Matt Kean says the government had to do everything it could. He has described the rescue effort as "an unprecedented environmental protection mission." We reached Minister Kean in Hornsby, New South Wales.

CO: Minister Kean, why was there such a huge effort to save these particular trees — the Wollemi pines.

MATT KEAN: Well, Carol, these are some of the oldest living things anywhere on the planet. The tree species is thought to be over 200-million years old. You know, they outlasted the dinosaurs. And we wanted to make sure that they were able to survive into the future.

CO: Can you describe them for us?

MK: They're a beautiful tree. They're found only in a small, secret location in the state of New South Wales — probably about an hour out of Sydney. The trees are quite large, so they grow quite tall. And they're like a typical pine tree. But as I said, they have existed since the time of the dinosaurs, and they outlived them. They've seen fires come and go, but nothing like the size and ferocity of the fires that we're currently seeing at the moment.

CO: Why is their location secret?

MK: Well, these are such a rare species. We wanted to keep them secret, so that people couldn't go in and vandalize them. In fact, to get into that ecosystem, people have to be decontaminated. That's how sensitive this ecosystem is.

CO: So how were you able to do what you describe as a military-style operation? You say you had to do just about everything to save them. How did you do that, and keep the location secret?

MK: Carol, we pulled out all stops. In our National Parks and Wildlife Service, we have trained firefighters, and we dedicated those firefighters to protecting these incredibly important ecological assets. We had fire retardant dropped around the trees. We installed irrigation systems to keep the trees wet. The reason for that is if the fire did go through, we wanted it to be a cool burn as opposed to a hot burn — which would have destroyed the trees. We also winched in specialist firefighters to help us confront the blaze as it came towards the trees. So I'm thrilled to say that we saved these prehistoric trees from annihilation. So of the 200 trees that are still living, we only lost two. A few were charred, but the rest were able to survive. And we're very excited about that fact.

CO: Well, given how close those bushfires were at that point, what kind of a risk did those firefighters take?

MK: Oh, they took a huge risk. I mean, these fires are ferocious. We've lost five-point-two million hectares of land in the last month or two, since these fires began. The fires are absolutely ferocious. And you can't easily get into where these trees are. They had to be winched in by helicopters. So they took an enormous risk. But it was one that they were prepared to take to protect these important ecological and environmental assets.

CO: If these trees have been around — the species been around — for 200-million years, surely they would have encountered fires before. So what is different about the blaze that you're fighting in New South Wales that has put these trees at such an unprecedented risk?

MK: Well, that's right. I mean, they would have seen fires over the years. I mean fire in a natural part of the Australian landscape. But what we haven't seen is fires of the scale and ferocity that we're seeing right now. And what we attribute that to is our changing climate. You know, our days are getting hotter, our seasons are getting drier, the fire season is starting earlier. So that's leading to more intense bushfires. It's having a huge impact on people and property, but also our beautiful natural environment.

CO: We know from following this story about these horrible fires in Australia that there's still a debate about in some areas as to why this is happening right now, and some saying it has nothing to do with climate change, little to do with it. So is that debate important? Do you need to resolve that in order to actually move ahead on what you have to do at this point?

MK: Look, there is, unfortunately, too much debate about whether or not climate change is playing a role. That debate is a waste of time. Climate change absolutely is playing a role. And the sooner people get on the program and stop talking about whether climate change is real, then we can start talking about what we're going to do to address it. So every minute that we waste debating whether climate change is real is a minute that we're not taking to deal with the problem and help us lower our carbon emissions globally.

CO: Watching what happened, and seeing how those firefighters risked their lives, all the things you've gone through, the people who have been killed, the houses you've lost and in your state. What at this point can you do?

MK: You know, right now as I said, there's still a debate in this country about whether we need to lower our carbon emissions. I mean, we contribute something like one-point-five per cent of total global emissions. WIth that said, we're still one of the highest emitters per capita anywhere on the planet. But in addition to that, we're well-placed to help other countries that are large emitters of carbon decarbonise. And that's the first thing we need to do. The second thing we need to do is start adapting our practices to accommodate the new normal. That means changing the way we manage our land. That means looking at how we do hazard reduction. You know, the conditions are changing in Australia like they are globally because of global warming. And we're going to have to change our practices to accommodate those changes.

CO: And just finally, are you sure that the Wollemi pines are out of danger at this point?

MK: Touch and go. We’re all waiting with bated breath to see whether or not they survived. We were able to see that the fires were approaching the Wollemi pines. So we had a few days’ notice — which gave us time to get in there and make sure we did everything we could to protect the assets. But we weren't able to be sure that the Wollemi pines survived for about four days afterwards because the smoke was just so thick, and it was still too dangerous to get in there and inspect the assets. Finally, when the smoke lifted, we're able to get some helicopters in there and assess the damage. We’ve got people in on the ground that have been able to look at it. And we are confident that the trees have survived. But they're not out of the woods yet. There are still remaining threats. One of the ones that you identified is that people may now know the location of it. So we'll have security up there, we'll be keeping an eye on these plants, and we'll be doing everything in our power to ensure that they do survive many years into the future.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. At least some small amount of good news from your state Minister Kean, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MK: Carol, thank you so much for having me on the program.

CH: Matt Kean is the Minister of Energy and Environment for New South Wales. We reached him in Hornsby.

[Music: Indie rock]

John Crosbie funeral

CH: "If a prime minister of Canada is lucky — and I mean really lucky — he gets to have a John Crosbie in his cabinet. One, not two." That's how former prime minister Brian Mulroney began a tribute to his late friend and colleague in St. John's earlier today. Dignitaries and politicians of all stripes — including Justin Trudeau and former Prime Minister Joe Clark — gathered for Mr. Crosbie's state funeral in the provincial capital. Mr. Crosbie served as a cabinet minister under both Mr. Clark and Mr. Mulroney. At the podium, Brian Mulroney honoured his friend's fierce advocacy not only for his province, but for his country as a whole. And he offered up a tentative impersonation of John Crosbie — in this story, about the birth of CBC Newsworld.

SOUNDCLIP

BRIAN MULRONEY: Commentators have discussed the Crosbie sense of humour.

[audience laughs]

BM: Funny, I never saw any of it.

[audience laughs harder]

BM: So here we are at another cabinet meeting, a little while later. And the [trying not to laugh] Minister of Communications came in with a project to create a new instrument called Newsworld — and to fund it with a further grant to the CBC. So the debate went around the Cabinet table. And finally, John put up his hand. Now, I can't imitate him. But I'm going to try, what the hell!

[audience laughs]

BM: He put up his hand, and you know, many of you know that when he was trying to make an important point, he closed his eyes.

[more laughing from the audience]

BM: So I knew it was gonna be important because both of them were bat-shut.

[laughing]

BM: So he puts up his hand, and he said, Prime Minister, may I say something? I said, sure John, what is it? He said as I understand it, we are presently giving the CBC a billion dollars a year, so they can savage us 18 hours a day.

[lots of laughing]

BM: Is that right, prime minister? [laughing] I said, well, John, it's just about right. And he said, as I understand, we are going to create an instrument called Newsworld. And we are going to give the CBC another 200-million dollars, so they can savage us 24 hours a day.

[laughing]

BM: Is that right, prime minister? [laughing] I said, well, I think so, John.

[laughing]

BM: He said, well, prime minister, I'm going to need your help. You're a very smart man, and you're a great speaker, prime minister. You're very eloquent. I would ask you to come with me to Newfoundland. And speak to the good people of Newfoundland to convince them a little bit because they have never heard of anything so stupid in their entire lives.

[lots of laughing]

BM: So I said, John, if it's okay, I'll pass on that trip.

CH: Former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney speaking earlier today at the state funeral for Newfoundland politician, John Crosbie. Mr. Crosbie died on Friday. He was 88.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Homeless tweeter, McMaster tires

NB rescue reunion

CH: Thirty-five years ago, Tom Vickers saved Travis Hovey's life. At the time, Mr. Vickers was an RCMP rescue pilot — and Mr. Hovey was a 12-year-old kid who got lost in the woods with his dad near the Miramichi River. Now, the pair have reunited — thanks to a chance encounter in a Fredericton coffee shop. And they sat down with the CBC's Shane Fowler to share their recollections of the last time they crossed paths. Here's Travis Hovey, followed by Tom Vickers.

SOUNDCLIP

TRAVIS HOVEY: it was minus 18, so things were getting frozen, and it was snowing, and super windy. So when we finally found the Miramichi River, we kept going upriver, and couldn't find any camps. But we did find a small 15-foot canvas canoe on the shore. So my father and I were at the time in super good shape — thank goodness! And we took our compass and marked where the canoe was, and we went about two miles back in the woods to try to get out of the wind. And we broke a softwood tree — like boughs, cedar boughs, pine boughs down, and made about a ten-foot high pile and crawled in the middle of it. Spent the night, when it turned light out, we got our compass and started making back towards where the canoe was. And we heard dogs, we thought coyotes chasing us, so we took off full-tilt running through the woods. We just threw this little old canoe in the river. And we were just pushing off rocks and ice chunks, and just flying down through this fast water.

TOM VICKERS: So we got the call, and we headed out. And eventually, flying over the Miramichi, we saw this canoe with the little guy in the back. And I think we could see him shivering from where we were. And they were heading down river, and just not too far ahead of them was an awful set of rough, rough water. And with the conditions — the weather and whatnot — and freezing, we were afraid if they had a mishap in that water, there would have been nothing we could have done for them. So we got on the loud hailer, and we directed them to pull up to shore. They got that message very, very clear — and his dad pulled that canoe over. And I remember like kind of a rock wall and what not there. We couldn't land the helicopter, so we got it in as close, and away we go. We got to their home, and I can remember there were not a lot of cars a lot of people. And the numbers I'm not sure of. But we did eventually, after we got him out, we put him in some hot water pretty soon because he was just shivering. He was going to get sick pretty fast.

TH: I do remember sitting in the bathtub, and I had like 25 friends in the bathroom all talking to me [laughing] and I was sitting there twelve years old, telling the story or whatever. Anyway, it was kind of kind of funny. But it was it was an experience. And at the end of it, it's a happy ending because I'm sure these gentlemen had a lot of experiences that weren't happy endings, so.

TV: After 35 years, I was quite surprised. This kid was 12 years old and kind of on the slim side when I saw him. [TH laughing] And here’s this mountain of muscle and whatnot you know standing in front of me. It was a good sight though.

CH: Thirty-five years ago, Tom Vickers was flying a rescue helicopter when he and his partner Paul Koovisk plucked a freezing Travis Hovey and his father from a canoe in the Miramichi River. Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hovey were speaking with the CBC's Shane Fowler.

[Music: Piano]

Homeless tweeter

Guest: Jordan Green

CH: He didn't have a place to live. But online, Jordan Green found a place to be himself. Back in July, the 48-year-old veteran spent the first of many nights in a Toronto shelter, after being evicted from his home. Over the next few months, as he learned to navigate the shelter system, Mr. Green also began sharing his experiences on Twitter, tweeting under the handle @Homeless416. He told Gill Deacon, host of "Here and Now", why he chose to go public about his situation.

SOUNDCLIP

JORDAN GREEN: Being homeless is a very shameful and embarrassing situation to be in. I haven't told anyone other than my girlfriend and her family. And I figured the best way to talk about it would be to go public. And so I started a Twitter feed.

GILL DEACON: And how do you feel now, now that you know you’re being very public about it?

JG: I'm scared. [laughing] It's very vulnerable. I'm a little scared and nervous about how it might affect my chances. You know, I'm looking for work. I'm looking for a home for the future. So I'm not sure how people will respond to this? I think it's important to talk about homelessness because it's so invisible, even though it's very visible. I never thought about homelessness until I became homeless.

GD: Until it became part of you.

JG: And you see people on the street, and you never really think about them.

CH: That's Jordan Green talking with CBC host Gill Deacon about why he's been tweeting about being homeless in Toronto. But as of tomorrow, he'll need some new material. He's about to move into a new place. We reached Jordan Green in Toronto.

CO: Jordan, I understand you're moving into your new place tomorrow. So what was it like when you got this sign that lease?

JG: Oh, wow! It was exciting, and it's very surreal. When you've had a place, and then to lose that place and not really know where you'll be from day-to-day or night-to-night, to suddenly be presented with a piece of paper that says you have a home, I'm tingling because it's good. But it's still settling in, I think.

CO: Wow! And you know, the story of how you came to be homeless, I just want to go back to that.

JG: Of course.

CO: Because you’re a man with an education, a post university life. You had a job, you had a career, how did this happen to you?

JG: I guess I fell into depression. My mom didn't let me know, she didn’t let anyone know in the family, that my dad was suffering from Alzheimer's, and she was struggling and taking care of him. And so I moved in with my parents. And shortly after, my mom passed away. And I know now I was falling into a deep depression. And finally, we got my dad into a home. But then he passed away a year ago this month actually. And I guess that just really, really hit home. And I wasn't able to focus or do a lot of the basic things that people take for granted. Like I was trying to start a business, but of course, when you struggle getting up in the morning, you can't do anything, right? And so I eventually just from not be able to pay my bills, I lost my place, and I found myself homeless — ironically, on Canada Day, July 1st.

CO: I'm so sorry about your parents, Jordan.

JG: Oh, thank you. That’s okay.

CO: What was so interesting for people who have no experiences of what you went through being homeless.

JG: Yes.

CO: You wrote some extraordinary things. You described some harrowing details your first encounters with being in a shelter. Can you describe that for us?

JG: Oh, wow! It was scary. The first shelter I went to is one of the most dangerous shelters in Toronto. And there are big tough guys who've been living on the streets forever. And they've got chains, like big motorcycle chains, around their necks. And they don't have motorcycles; those are used to defend themselves or to fight to get what they want, right? And so for the first week really I didn't sleep because I was scared for my life. And I'd be lying there, lights out is at eight o'clock, but they don't turn the lights out for safety, so that everyone can see what's going on at all times. And you’re in a big concrete room with about 30 or 40 other complete strangers on mats on a floor, lying literally they use a foot to measure how big a space between the mats is. So you can imagine you don't have any personal space. And you're in a big concrete room with a bunch of strangers — some of them are unsettled and violent.

CO: So why did you decide to start tweeting?

JG: Yes.

CO: Because you said when you spoke with Gill Deacon that you found this to be shameful and embarrassing. So why did you go public?

JG: Yes, and I still do. I still feel ashamed about being homeless. And it's hard for me to talk in public and use the word homeless to describe my situation. But I started tweeting I guess because I'm Jewish. I'm not religious, but it was around I think the Jewish New Year. And around that time, I've always been someone who reflects on the year that was and the year that will be. And I missed all my friends. They were sending me text messages, and leaving voicemails and emails asking what happened because they hadn't seen me for a while. And I felt bad. I hadn’t returned any of their communications. And I was figuring, okay, if I take the brave step to maybe just start tweeting to strangers, then we'll see what happens. And from there, I realized I guess once you start tweeting about something, the world knows about it. So it gave me the courage I needed to talk to my friends again. Which I'm really glad I did, because when I did, for the most part, they were very receptive.

CO: And now, you had harrowing details that you described, horrible things that were going on.

JG: Yes.

CO: But you had so many tender moments. Just maybe give us something that you remember from this time that really touched you?

JG: I think the shelter workers are amazing people. And they really do a really amazing job. I remember around Thanksgiving, the shelter employees put on a full like Thanksgiving dinner. Usually, we get donations for food. So the running joke in the shelter is, is it chicken and rice, or rice and chicken? [both chuckle] Because that's after what we had, right? They had beef and ham, I think they had turkey, they had stuffing, they had salad, they had pop. You know, you think a soda pop when you're homeless, you know, that's a luxury. And it was really, really sweet to you know just sit down and have a Thanksgiving meal in a homeless shelter of all things. It was just a really amazing thing. A lot of people were teary-eyed. I get a little choked up talking about it now.

CO: Some people criticize when they see homeless people or people in the street when they have cell phones. Why would you consider having your mobile phone to be one of your necessities?

JG: You need to be able to communicate with the outside world. I think it's also really important for trying to get yourself out of that situation that you're in. I would never have found any of the resources that I used to get the place that I'm moving into now if I didn't have a cell phone. I would never been able to reach out to Vets Canada and to the Royal Canadian Legion — who are providing an amazing place. It's a subsidized place in Toronto. I wouldn't have any of these things if I didn't have a phone.

CO: Just over a week ago, city staff in Toronto began dismantling a homeless encampment in Rosedale Ravines, and evicting the people who were living there. Toronto's mayor John Tory defended the movie. He said there's shelter space, there’s a bed for everyone. Is that true?

JG: I'd like to think so. I don't think so. I know where that tent city was because it was right near one of the shelters that I was staying at. When I left, the place was always full, and they'd run out of bed sometimes, so I don't think that's entirely true.

CO: So now, Vets Canada has found an apartment for you. You've been on a list, and now you’ve got it. And you and your dog Joey have a home.

JG: Yes.

CO: How will that change things for you?

JG: It's amazing. You know, all through this process, I've been looking for work. And you do an amazing telephone interview for example for a job. And they’d say can you come say Wednesday or Thursday of next week? And you say sure, and you’d put it in your calendar. But you're thinking in the back of your mind, I don't know if I'm going to have a bed, you know, from here till then. Or I don't know if I'll be able to get a clean shower to be presentable for a job interview by then. But having a permanent address, it really gives you some stability in life.

CO: Well, Jordan, I'm happy for you, and for Joey that you have that.

JG: Thank you.

CO: And it's good to talk to you.

JG: Thank you. It's a good day.

CO: Bye-bye.

JG: Take care.

CH: Jordan Green is a 48-year-old veteran who tweets under the handle @Homeless416. We reached him in Toronto. And you can find more on Mr. Green on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre]

Carleton vigil

CH: It must have been profoundly difficult to find the words. But thirteen-year-old Ryan Pourjam found them. Ryan was remembering his father, Mansour Pourjam, at a memorial last night at Carleton University in Ottawa. Mr. Pourjam was a Carleton alumnus — and one of 57 Canadians who died when their plane was shot down by Iranian forces last week. The service also paid tribute to victim Fareed Arasteh, who was pursuing his PhD at the university. Here is what Ryan Pourjam said about his father.

SOUNDCLIP

RYAN POURJAM: Hello, everybody. I can't remember a single moment in my life where Mansour — my dad — had any trace of negativity in his voice or actions. I mean, I did, obviously. But, you know.

[laughing]

RP: He'd always tell me to stay positive through the dark times and through the good, when we get stuck in traffic, or when I couldn't get the coffee that I wanted.

[more laughing]

RP: [deep sigh] I don't want to you know talk about the bad things. Because I know that if my dad was alive, and if somebody else died in the crash, and that he was right here giving a speech, he wouldn’t talk about the bad stuff. I won't. I look to the audience, and I see his family, his friends, some relationships that he built over decades, and it comforts me. Because they're here to celebrate Mansoor and Fareed's amazing lives. They've touched every single person in the audience. It's amazing. And I'm sure he feels the same way. Mansoor, if I could describe him in one word, it would be “strong.” He's been through tragedy after tragedy, wall after wall, wrong turn after wrong turn. And he stood strong. [breaking down]He was amazing. And we loved each other. Thank you.

[clapping]

RP: Thank you. I stand up here a week after this horrible tragedy, and I still can't believe it. I feel like I'm dreaming. But I know that if I was dreaming, and that if he woke me up, he'd tell me that it's gonna be okay. And it will be. Thank you.

[more clapping]

CH: Thirteen-year old Ryan Pourjam, eulogizing his father, Mansour, at a memorial at Carleton University yesterday evening.

[Music: Sombre guitar]

Buttigieg bread prices

CH: Pete Buttigieg is angry — partly about the things that he's supposed to be angry about like corporate downsizing, and U.S. foreign policy, and the general state of the status quo. But he also seems to be angry about the New York Times editorial board's suggestion that he might have been involved in fixing the price of Canadian bread. Back in 2017, Loblaws admitted that for more than 14 years, it colluded with other companies to inflate the cost of a loaf in Canada. And while that was happening, Pete Buttigieg was working at McKinsey — a company that consulted for Loblaws. But when Binyamin Appelbaum brought that up in a New York Times editorial board interview with Mr. Buttigieg, the Democratic primary candidate got — a bit crusty.

SOUNDCLIP

BINYAMIN APPELBAUM: You've been on the frontlines of corporate downsizing. You've been on the frontlines of corporate price fixing. You've been on the frontlines of our misadventures in foreign policy.

PETER BUTTIGIEG: Woah… woah… woah… I’m sorry… that’s…

BA: You've had direct experience of many of the things that make a lot of young people very angry about the way that this country is operating right now. You don't seem to embody that anger.

PB: So the proposition I've been on the frontlines of corporate price fixing is, [expletive] just to get that out of the way.

BA: You worked for a company that was fixing bread prices.

PB: No, I worked for a consulting company that had a client that may have been involved in fixing or what was apparently a scandal. I was not aware of the Canadian bread pricing scandal until last night.

BA: But do you feel the anger that many young people feel about the state of this?

PB: Yeah, of course, because it destroyed my city. I grew up surrounded by crumbling factories and empty houses. My city lost 30,000 thousand of its 130,000 people — largely before I was born. So I'm under no illusions about the problems that are present in American capitalism generally. And were unleashed beginning with the Reagan era specifically. And while I may not be as emotive sometimes about my sense of anger or frustration or injustice, I would not be doing any of this if I were not propelled by a level of passion.

CH: Pete Buttigieg is a Democratic primary candidate, and the former mayor of South Bend, Indiana. He was speaking with New York Times editorial board member Binyamin Appelbaum.

[Music: Spanish guitar]

McMaster tire

Guest: Michael Brook

CH: When you re-tire your car, you retire your tires. And when they're out of the rotation, those old tires end up at the dump — where they pile up in the thousands. Now, at best, they just sit there. At worst, they catch on fire. And for just one example of the kind of environmental, financial, and health damage that can do, there was the tire fire Hagersville, Ontario, about 35 kilometres from Hamilton — which burned for 17 days in 1990. Now, a researcher from McMaster University — not coincidentally, in Hamilton — believes he's found a way to recycle and reuse old tires. Michael Brook is a chemistry professor who led a study that found a way to break down the tires. We reached Professor Brook at McMaster.

CO: Professor Brook, what got you interested in that tire fire from 30 years ago in Hagersville?

MICHAEL BOOK: Well, I don't know if interested is really the right word. But we could see the smoke from Hamilton, and I had a colleague who was involved in looking at the material that was coming into the air. And it was not a good story. So I think anybody who lived in this part of the world was concerned about it.

CO: And it burned for a very long time, didn't it?

MB: Seventeen days. And there were something like 14-million tires. In the day, that's how all tires were treated. You sort of stored them and kind of hoped someone would come up for a good solution.

CO: Why did you think science might have a solution to what you were seeing in that giant tire fire?

MB: Well, it's funny. We started doing work in this particular tire problem not because I'm an expert in tires or in sulfur. I'm an expert in silicone. And we were doing some chemistry to try and make new silicone for specific applications — and then sort of said, well, wait, if it works over there, could it work here? And somewhat to my surprise, we could take both tires, use the same chemical reaction, and break them down into much smaller pieces so that they're processable. So it was a sense that we had something in hand that would be worth attempting. And in this particular case, it worked out.

CO: And this was your eureka moment?

MB: You know, people always say that there's a eureka moment, well I guess so. It's a nice way to say it. Oh, it’s a eureka moment. What we don't tell you about [CO chuckling] are the 99 eureka moments that actually didn't work out.

CO: But now the thing is that we know with tires that there has been an effort to try and recycle them, to figure out some other way of using them besides throwing them in the dump. I mean, because they've been sort of ground up and made into mats and made into asphalt and put into playgrounds and whatnot. What is it that you brought that's different then?

MB: Because if you think about it, you know, when I was young, tires in the last all that long. Tires last now up to one hundred thousand kilometres. And all of that technology that made them so great on the road makes them harder to work with after you're done. Most people in the past have done is essentially burn them or heat them up to try and get oil out of them or methane and things like that. And those are good processes. But what you're really losing is the inherent value of that petroleum that made the tire in the first place. And all we did is take this chemical process, which I’ve said is kind of like molecular scissors. And it goes in and chops up the sulfur sulfur bonds that are holding all that rubber in one piece together. And once you go from something which is like a fishnet to something which is like a bunch of ropes, all of a sudden all the other materials that are there can be easily separated from it.

CO: And how do you do that separation? Do you have to use heat?

MB: You know, we heat it up at about 100 degrees for 45 minutes or so. And in the world of science, that's actually pretty mild conditions. What the magic is is we actually use a byproduct of the silicone industry, and it's the actually doing the chemistry that makes sulfur sulfur bonds get cut apart. And then there's a catalyst that that drives the process. So we're not using lots of energy, but we're using some chemicals that are a little bit expensive. And that's one of the challenges that we still have to face is reducing the overall price of the process.

CO: What do you get then? After you've broken this down into its parts, what are you left with?

MB: We filter off a lot of the things that people will be familiar with. You know, you talk about steel-belted radial tires, so the steel comes out, and the polyester cord comes out, and carbon black and silica and other things that are used all come out. And we can just separate those by filtration. Anyone who's ever used the coffeemaker knows how to filter coffee grounds; it's the same process. And what you filter away from is a solution of these organic polymers — long-chain or organic polymers — that essentially are very similar to what the original tire was made from.

CO: What can you do with it?

MB: We took an old kid's toy, we took the tire off, made a mold, and made a new kid's toy tire. So we were able to convert this particular polymer back into a kind of rubber. That was just a demonstration for it. I think we're still at the beginning of trying to understand just how much we can do with this. But I think turning them back into other rubbers or other materials that we use you know in our common daily use, I think all of those things are going to be possible.

CO: But you point out that this process does require some byproducts that are costly. So can you find a cost-efficient way of doing this?

MB: Well, that's exactly the question, isn't it? Because at the end of the day, the proof of principle is wonderful, but if it can't be reduced to practice at scale. Because three-billion tires were made last year or something like that in the world. It won't be of any interest, so that's exactly what we're trying to do now is either reduce the amount of that costly catalysts that we need in the first place, or find more efficient ways to recover it, so we can we use the catalyst.

CO: And you describe three-billion tires just last year — all of which will end up in landfill if there's not some other way of using it.

MB: Everybody in Canada, at least I think it's true — certainly in Ontario and Alberta — are paying a recycling fee. And so those tires aren't sitting in dumps the way they used to. But I would think that the value we're getting out of the tire in the current recycling systems is pretty low. And there's an opportunity here to get much higher value if we can just improve this process a bit more.

CO: And have you had any interest, any business or company interest in the possibility that you have found something they could actually make a profit from?

MB: There has been an interest from some of those provincial recycling facilities. They're interested in the process. So there's been lots of interest. The question is how do we translate that interest into the most useful way to move the process forward? Yes, there's been at least for me a surprising amount of interest.

CO: Well, anyone who has seen what a pile of tires looks like — and especially if you have ever experienced a tire fire — I would say that this a lot of motivation for you to continue your work.

MB: If we were able to reduce the incidence of tire fires in Canada, and take that product and do something useful with it, that would be a pretty nice outcome.

CO: Professor Brook, thanks for speaking with us.

MB: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.

CH: Michael Brook is a chemistry professor at McMaster University. He's the lead author of a study on dissolving tires that was published in the December issue of the journal Green Chemistry. We reached Professor Brook in Hamilton, Ontario.

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January 16, 2019 episode transcript

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