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The AIH Transcript for January 8, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: He lost his sister, his brother-in-law, and his niece when their plane crashed in Iran today. Omid Arsalani is just one of many mourning the deaths of at least 63 Canadians who were aboard.

CH: Seeking answers. As the investigation into what caused the Ukrainian passenger plane to crash continues, one aviation expert worries it will be hampered by the tensions between the U.S. and Iran.

CO: Self-admonishment. A former American negotiator with Iran says his country is to blame for the recent escalations — but he says after the assassination of the country's top general, there is no way Iranian leaders would sit down with Americans again.

CH: Nowhere near the same page. After a Chinese American romance writer accuses a fellow novelist of racism, the fallout results in the cancellation of the industry's biggest awards gala.

CO: What a feeling. Well, quite a few, in fact. According to a new study, which concludes that music can evoke a wide range of emotions in listeners, we're talking like at least 13.

CH: And… a full account. Conservative MP Erin O'Toole says he's confident Canadians will learn what brought down the passenger plane in Tehran — despite the lack of diplomatic ties between Canada and Iran. As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio at half mast

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Iran crash: Toronto victim, Iran crash: Tehran victim, Iran crash: aviation expert

Iran crash: Toronto victim

Guest: Omid Arsalani

CH: Canadians with connections to Iran were already watching the region with anxiety and fear. And then, Flight PS752 went down. The Ukraine International Airlines plane crashed shortly after takeoff from Tehran early this morning. 176 people died. At least 63 were Canadians. The victims were young and old, and lived all across the country. At least thirty were from Edmonton. Omid Arsalani lost his sister Evin, his one-year-old niece Kurdia, and his brother-in-law, Hiva Molani, in the crash. We reached Omid Arsalani in Toronto.

CO: Omid, first of all, I am so sorry for your loss.

OMID ARSALANI: I appreciate it. Thank you.

CO: At what point did you realize that your sister and her husband and your niece were all on that flight?

OA: At about 3:00 in the morning, I got a call from my brother. He came over to the house — my house — at 3:45ish and told me in person that my sister and my niece and her husband we're on that flight, and the flight has crashed. I asked him if anybody made it? He said no, everybody on board was dead. Nobody even made it out of it.

CO: I'm so sorry. Your family is where? Where are the other family members — your parents?

OA: My parents are in Iran.

CO: And so does everybody know at this point?

OA: Yes, yes, I was the last person to find out. I had no idea.

CO: How is your family dealing with this?

OA: My mother, she is not even able to talk. And everybody is grieving and crying and really frustrated and upset and heartbroken. It's a very hard moment for us to be going through.

CO: So what was the purpose of your sister's visit with her husband and with her daughter?

OA: The purpose was my sister's brother-in-law — which is the husband's brother — was getting married, and they went back for the wedding. And there was the wedding that they went to in December, and that was done. The wedding was done, and they recently got their bags back and they were heading home.

CO: So this is a happy trip.

OA: [shaken] It was supposed to be.

CO: Yeah. And when did you last speak with your sister?

OA: Yesterday morning.

CO: And what did you say? What was the conversation about?

OA: No, we always talked on the phone, and she was just telling me she's coming back if I want anything, if I need anything, and she sent me a message on Instagram — it’s a little postalcard that says if you have a brother, and only a brother can love you like a father, bug you like a sister, and take care like your mother. If you have a brother and you love him, send him this. And she sent me that. That’s the last thing I got from my sister.

CO: She sounds like a really lovely woman.

OA: Very lovely.

CO: Can you tell us a bit about her?

OA: She was a good girl. She was working at CIBC at Lawrence Square. The baby was only 18 months, and she was planning on going back to work in February.

CO: And baby, this is Kurdia?

OA: Yes.

CO: What was your niece like?

OA: Sweet, loving, happy, laughing — an angel on earth.

CO: I understand you also got to talk to her sister on her birthday last week. Would you tell us about that phone call?

OA: Yes. Every time there is a birthday, I call her on the phone, and I have on speaker, and me and my wife sing her Happy birthday. And I always count from are you one, are you two, until I get to the age. And that’s the conversation I had with her, and the last conversation I had.

CO: What are you going to remember most about her?

OA: Everything about her, everything. How sweet she was, how loving she was, how caring she was. She always cared about people. She always helped others. She got a lot of her friends at school to get a job at CIBC when they were hiring. She always had donations and helping. And she was always involved with the Kurdish community, helping them with events, gathering donations for them all the time. And she was a very good lady, very good girl.

CO: And what will you remember about your brother-in-law?

OA: Very hard working guy, took care of his wife — my sister. He took care of his family. He was able to go to school, get an HVAC licence, buy his own van, become an installer. He bought a house in Ajax, Ontario three years ago. He put a family together. In pictures, they were perfect, happy, have a home, or a roof over their heads, pay their bills, have a child, and that was their life, that was their plan.

CO: You live close by?

OA: Yeah, I live in Bathurst in Sheppard, and she’s Ajax. And I used to go by. And about a month-and-a-half-ago, I had a construction issue with the house, so I was with her for about a-month-and-a-half. Every day, I saw her. Every day, I woke up with her. Every day, after work, I went home to her house. Every day I went home, her daughter would run to me in the hallway and call me Gaga. She would gall me Gaga. That’s the only thing she would call me [crying]. Sorry about this.

CO: Omid, I’m so sorry.

OA: I can't believe this has happened.

CO: Do you have somebody with you when we finish this phone call? Is there somebody?

OA: Yeah, I have people nice enough to come over and be with me at this time.

CO: So you won't be alone?

OA: No, no, I have people here.

CO: What are your questions? What answers do you want now?

OA: Honestly, nothing makes any difference. Whatever it is, whatever it was, I really wanna know what the cause was. If it's a bad issue, fix it for others so they don't suffer. We're done, there's nothing we can do to fix this. We're already here, and there is not going back. If there was somebody was responsible or somebody who is able to help. It's not easy to deal with this. It’s not easy to lose loved ones. It's not easy to lose a sister, brother, cousin, anybody.

CO: And you think there’s 63 Canadians, and every single one of them is a story like the one you're telling.

OA: Every one of them, every one of them suffered. Every family is going to suffer. And there's a lot more people. You know, families, people who are related, friends, everybody is suffering. Everybody is suffering. If these issues can be taken care of, why not, fix it before everybody gets their hearts broken so bad.

CO: Omid, I'm sorry to have intruded at this extremely emotional time for you, but I really appreciate that you would share your story of your family with us. Thank you.

OA: Thank you for calling. I appreciate it. Thank you.

CO: Bye.

OA: Goodbye.

CH: We reached Omid Arsalani in Toronto. His sister Evin, his niece Kurdia, and his brother-in-law Hiva Molani all died in the Ukraine International Airlines crash in Tehran today.

Iran crash: Tehran victim

Guest: Hamid Mehr

CH: So far, at least 63 Canadians are confirmed to have been killed in the crash. But late this afternoon, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told reporters that 138 of the passengers were en route to Toronto. Shadi Jamshidi was one of them. She was a Canadian permanent resident living in Toronto, but in Tehran visiting family. Hamid Mehr was her close friend. Mr. Mehr also lives in Toronto — and is still in Tehran, waiting to fly home. That's where we reached him.

CO: Hamid, first of all, I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend.

HAMID MEHR: Thank you.

CO: And how are you coping with this news that your friend Shadi is dead?

HM: I'm devastated. I can't even begin to describe. It comes among various emotions in regards to what all Iranians experience since last night, after the missiles were thrown toward the American base in Iraq. We were all shaken up. And I imagine that is mixed with the news of some friend's death, their beloved friend. How would you even describe that?

CO: And at what point did you hear there had been this plane crash?

HM: Well, I was monitoring my Twitter, and looking for news regarding the missile strikes. And suddenly, I saw this tweet from some local news agency talking about that this Ukrainian airplane has crashed close to Tehran. At first, I didn't believe this. So I sought out more credible sources. Eventually, after like half-an-hour, they disclosed that this is really a thing. And then after they released the names, and I saw her name on that list, I realized what a travesty has happened. She is not with us anymore.

CO: Did you know that she was possibly going to be flying last night, or this morning?

HM: Yeah, I had a conversation with her last week. We talked about our flight schedules, flying back to Toronto from Tehran. And I told her I'm flying on Friday, and she told me she's flying last night. We both booked our tickets a few months ago, and we're looking for cheap flights because you know, at this time of the year, the tickets will cost you and arm and a leg. But I didn't want to go through Kiev. I wanted to have a stop in Europe. But she was merely looking for cheap flights. And I even joked about that she was a cheap person, as she’s looking for cheap flights. And we laughed about it — but not a funny joke anymore.

CO: You're still in Tehran, and you were just mentioning how you were already monitoring the extraordinary alarming developments of last night — when Iran shot missiles into Iraq. And then in the midst of all of this, to learn that this this flight had crashed, what does this past 24 hours been like for you?

HM: Surreal, that's how I can describe it. I think deep down, I haven't come to terms with this. I'm denying this. It's somewhere down there I feel like this is all a joke, and she's probably already there at home in Toronto. I still don't believe this has happened. This is like a mixture of all sort of emotions —like a roller coaster. I already came to Iran to look after my sick mother, so I was already very emotional. So all those news of war and my friend's death, it has only exasperated my emotions.

CO: Can you just tell us a bit about Shadi Jamshidi, and what was she like?

HM: She was my dear friend. I've known her for three years. And the more I knew her, the more I came to like her. She was a lovely person all around. The sort of person you would like to be around — the sort of person who would cheer you up, who would be always there for you. it's so hard to think that such a person is gone. I can’t understand this.

CO: Are you having questions about how this crash happened then?

HM: Not really, doesn't matter anymore, she's perished, and she's not coming back. Maybe some attacks, dark magic, I don't know, but I don't really care.

CO: What are the questions you want answered?

HM: I can't think of any actually right now. There are criticisms to our Canadian government why Canadians had to go through Ukraine to come to Canada? Why didn't we have a direct flight from Iran? So many huge diaspora of Iranians in Toronto and other Canadian cities. Why did we have to rely on foreign airlines?

CO: And also, on that same area, there is no Canadian consular services, there's no embassy there.

HM: Exactly.

CO: So what is that going to mean for so many people who are trying to get information because of what happened, all the loved ones dead in Iran?

HM: It’s inconvenience. Like, he mentioned that we should contact the embassy in Turkey, but that's so inconvenient. Canadians expect to have access to the federal government here in Iran consular section. Since that's not here, we don't have access to that.

CO: So at the same time, you were booked on this Austrian Airlines flight on Friday, so how important is it for you at this point to get out of there, to try and get back to Toronto?

HM: This is very difficult question. It's mixed feelings, on one hand, I don't want to leave my sick mom. And on the other hand, I have to be back to go back to work next week. It's such a dichotomy. On one hand, I want to be here, and on the other hand, I want to get out of here as soon as possible.

CO: Do you know anything about Shadi — your friend’s — family? Do you know how her family is doing?

HM: I heard her brother weeping on the phone when I was talking to my friend.

CO: And you your friend is the boyfriend of Shadi, is that right?

HM: Yeah, yeah.

CO: How is he doing?

HM: He couldn't talk. He barely talked to me. Two words and he started crying. My friend — Shadi's boyfriend — he was the one that I would go to seek comfort when life got difficult. Now, I should be there for him.

CO: And Shadi’s brother and boyfriend are in Toronto?

HM: Yeah.

CO: So when you get back, you’ll join them and comfort each other?

HM: Yeah. Hopefully, yes, if I can get out.

CO: Hamid, I'm so sorry for this loss. And please give our regards to her family and to your friend.

HM: I will. I will. Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

HM: Bye.

CH: Hamid Mehr was a close friend of Shadi Jamshidi — who lived in Toronto, and died in today's plane crash in Tehran. We reached Mr. Mehr in Tehran.

[Music: Guitar]

Iran crash: aviation expert

Guest: Paul Beaver

CH: The crash that killed everyone on board that Boeing jet happened soon after it took off. There was no mayday signal from the pilots. So people around the world are, of course, wondering — how did this happen? The crash also occurred just hours after Iran fired ballistic missiles at airbases in Iraq housing U.S. forces. So far, Iranian and Ukrainian authorities have delivered mixed messages about the possible cause of the crash. Iran has recovered the plane's black boxes, but says it will not hand them over to Boeing. Paul Beaver is an aviation security analyst, and a former pilot. We reached him in London.

CO: Mr. Beaver, what are the most significant details you've seen so far about what may have caused this crash?

PAUL BEAVER: There's a lot of information that seems to be floating around in these days of people with mobile phones, and also, because there's so much focus on Iran because of recent problems with the United States. I think what worries me about what I've seen is a lack of coordination and proper procedure by the authorities in Tehran to cordon off the site and do a systematic search of the wreckage. And if they're not going to allow experts in as protocol would normally dictate, then I think we have a real problem in trying to trace what went wrong with this flight.

CO: We have only little snips of video that are taken at the crash site. We can see that there are Red Cross people around, gathering the bodies and remains, putting them into a body bags. They are gathering up the personal belongings of people, piling them up, moving around the debris. When you see these pictures, what alarms you about that?

PB: Yes, I think you're seeing the Red Crescent there, doing their humanitarian job. I think is right and proper. However, what I would have liked to have seen would be that the crash site to have been cordoned off and there to be a systematic search looking at the wreckage, taking photographs of it, making measurements. What they'll have to do is piece together this aeroplane again to try and find out exactly what did happen. And unless they use the protocols that are accepted by just about everybody that signed the Chicago Convention on Air Travel, then some of the information — some of the clues — could well be swept away or be put in a different position so that it doesn't make sense. Experts are needed, experts from Boeing, from the American authorities, from the French engine manufacturer, and, of course, from the Ukrainians as well because it's their airliner. We know a lot about Boeing 737 800s. Luckily, there aren't many accidents with them, but there's enough information out there for the experts to be able to do this. But if Tehran won't allow them in, then there is a real issue.

CO: When you say there are not many accidents with the Boeing 737, so what we've heard from the company — from the Ukrainian airlines — is that this was one of their best planes. It had just recently passed a full inspection. They had some of their best pilots who were operating on that plane. So what are the possible flaws? What could possibly have been wrong with the plane itself — the Boeing 737 — that they were on?

PB: Yes, I would certainly go along with the Ukrainian airlines on this. To me, the key is whether this video that shows it actually on fire as it goes down, I think, could well be key — because this would suggest to me something external to the airplane. If we've discounted engines, which I understand is what Ukraine says, and the French manufacturer has yet to clarify that, but I believe that it wasn't necessarily an engine failure. Although, it could have been a catastrophic failure with the engine to do with something like icing or something like birds. There are so many issues here. And, of course, what's in everyone's mind is because there were hostilities last night between Iran and firing missiles at American bases in Iraq, did something happen there? Was there a trigger-happy gunner somewhere? With aircraft accidents, it's very rare there's one thing. There's normally a whole chain of events. If one of those links in the chain is broken, the accident doesn't happen. But if they all come together, then sadly they do. It might take us a while to know what went wrong here because Tehran has got to cooperate with everybody, Britain, Canada, Sweden, we've all got nationals who were killed in that air crash. And so, therefore, we're all interested as well.

CO: But let's just go to the takeoff itself — that it was five minutes into its flight, 8,000 feet it had climbed, or 2,400 metres. And then what appears is that the aircraft data disappears. There is no indication that the plane has slowed down or anything has changed, it just stopped doing what it was doing and starts a descent. So what does that tell you?

PB: Yes, I've seen these tracers as well — which come from a reputable app that you can get. It's very strange, it's something catastrophic is happening to that airplane. But it's so catastrophic that it's instant, that it stops the transmission of the normal transponders which are used for positioning the aircraft on radar, et cetera. It's almost as if, if you look at those traces, the airplane flew into a brick wall. And I think that that is also going to be a very useful series of clues for the investigators.

CO: Okay, we don't want to speculate too much, but what could be that brick wall? What could that signify?

PB: A brick wall could be a catastrophic failure with the system that completely took out the electronics in the aircraft. It could be something external hitting the aircraft and causing that. It could be it's unlikely to be birds at six o'clock in the morning in Tehran. I think it's still dark then. So it's unlikely to be birds, and it would be too high for that normally. Could it have been an icing problem which caused an engine to malfunction? All of these things will be looked at. No, I think it's too early to be absolutely certain. I want us to see more data, and I'm sure we'll get that if Tehran is prepared to help and cooperate.

CO: And is there any reason to believe that it’s anything other than a catastrophic accident?

PB: [long pause] The only thing that would concern me — and does concern me — is that this was, if you like, a war zone last night, and earlier this morning Tehran time. It was departing on a regular flight, it's a standard air route. Lots of airlines use Iran, over fly Iran, so there's nothing unusual in this in its flight. It should have been a regular flight. So what actually happened could be connected with last night, or it might just be pure coincidence. And I am afraid we won't know that for some time.

CO: Mr. Beaver, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

PB: My pleasure.

CH: Paul Beaver is an aviation security analyst and a former pilot. He was in London. For more on our coverage of the plane crash in Tehran this morning, go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. Later in the show, we'll hear from the Conservative Party's foreign affairs critic, Erin O'Toole.

[Music: Sad piano]

Meghan and Harry news

CH: Prince Harry may be 6th in line to the throne — but he seems even farther away now. Today, the Prince and his wife, Meghan Markle, the Duchess of Sussex, announced they are stepping back as "senior" members of the Royal Family — and will work to become financially independent. They say they will continue to fully support The Queen, but will split their time between the United Kingdom and North America. Over the past year, which saw the birth of their son Archie, the couple has faced intense media pressure. Back in October, they went public with those struggles. Here's how Meghan described their experience to ITV's Tom Bradby.

SOUNDCLIP

MEGHAN MARKLE: It's hard. When I first met my now husband, my friends were really happy because I was so happy. But my British friends said to me, I'm sure he's great, but you shouldn't do it because the British tabloids will destroy your life. And I very naively — I'm an American, we don't have that there — what you're talking about! That doesn't make any sense. I'm not in tabloids. I didn't get it.

TOM BRADBY: I don't know what the impact on your physical and mental health of all the pressure that you clearly feel under

MM: [sigh] Um, I would say, look, any woman — especially when they're pregnant — you're really vulnerable. And so that was made really challenging. And then when you have a newborn, you know?

TB: Mmm-hmm. It's a long time ago, but I remember, yeah.

MM: Yeah, you know? And especially as a woman, it's really it's a lot. So you add this on top of just trying to be a new mom, or trying to be a newlywed, yeah. Well, I guess and also thank you for asking, because not many people have asked if I'm okay. But it's a very real thing to be going through behind the scenes.

TB: And the answer is, would it be fair to say not really okay? Has it really been a struggle?

MM: Yes.

CH: From last October, that's the Duchess of Sussex, Meghan Markle, speaking with ITV's Tom Bradby. Today, Meghan and her husband, Prince Harry, announced they are stepping back as "senior" members of the royal family. It seems like that may have been news to the Royal Family — who have released a statement, saying discussions are still at an early stage. They say they understand the couple's desire to, quote, "take a different approach, but these are complicated issues that will take time to work through." Unquote. Here's the BBC's Royal Correspondent, Jonny Dymond, breaking that statement down.

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JONNY DYMOND: Just the wording of that, “we understand their desire,” that degree of separation between the palace on one hand, the couple on the other, is again, to the seasoned a-high, astonishing. And then there is what's come from the source that the BBC has spoken to — the palace source — is that not one member of the royal family was consulted by Harry or Meghan about this move — that they were completely blindsided by it. And the palace has told the BBC that there is disappointment. And again, these words are very carefully chosen. They would not say that, I think, unless there was a deep, deep sense of disappointment and anger about how this decision was made.

CH: That's the BBC's Royal Correspondent, Jonny Dymond, speaking earlier today.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Iran crash: Erin O’Toole, Iran bombs Iraq

Iran crash: Erin O’Toole

Guest: Erin O’Toole

CH: There were more questions than answers tonight for those who lost loved ones on Flight 752. This afternoon in Ottawa, Prime Minister Trudeau told reporters that 138 people were missing when a flight from Kyiv arrived in Toronto today — all of whom had been aboard that connecting flight out of Tehran. Mr. Trudeau said it's too soon to know whether the crash was an accident or not. But he promised his government will push for a proper investigation. Reporters wanted to know how he would do that since Canada has severed all diplomatic ties with Iran.

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JUSTIN TRUDEAU: First of all, our initial thoughts are, of course, focused on the families — the families who woke up to terrible, terrible news this morning. We will provide them all the support necessary. We have already begun reaching out, and we'll continue to support these families through some very, very difficult few days ahead. As we move forward, we've had many countries step up to offer their support and assistance as we move forward — whether it's Ukraine, or countries like Australia, Italy, France, to assist us in our consular work on the ground. Because as I said, Minister Francois-Philippe Champagne will be engaging directly with his Iranian counterpart to request assistance and presence by Canada — both in Tehran, but also as part of the investigation.

CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau at a press conference in Ottawa this afternoon. Erin O'Toole is Conservatives' Foreign Affairs critic. We reached him in Bowmanville, Ontario.

CO: Mr. O'Toole, we just heard the prime minister say that he is prepared to give all support necessary to those families through these very difficult days. And to do that, he has countries that are stepping up to assist. What can Canada do without any presence of its own on the ground? How much of that can he actually fulfill of that commitment that he just made?

ERIN O’TOOLE: Well, first off, I share his sentiments in terms of the profound sadness that so many Canadian families woke up with today after this terrible accident. And I know the Conservative opposition shares his grief and his support for the families. Canada has a strong history in transport safety investigation, and so we do have the capability to provide assistance if we're required. Because it's not a Canadian aircraft, or not Canadian jurisdiction, there is no role directly for Canada. But we have the capability, and a very highly respected TSB that that can provide assistance — whether through Ukraine, who is the operator in this case. But obviously, we're affected as one of the countries with the most losses.

CO: But over 60 Canadians are dead. And earlier today, Mr. Trudeau and the government was also saying that they are going to have answers for Canadians. I guess the question is: is it possible that those families are never going to know why this plane went down?

EO: No, I think they will have that knowledge. When I was in the Air Force, Carol, I was involved in the response to the crash of Swiss Air flight 111 off Nova Scotia. And the certainty and the finality is important for the families — that degree of closure. And Canada will want that, so will Boeing and the aircraft manufacturers, the Ukrainian airline. So despite the global tensions right now with Iran, there will be immense pressure, and there will be multiple nations ready to assist in terms of the accident investigation. And so I think Canada can push for that. And Ukraine has already expressed interest in making sure Canada can participate, perhaps provide them with assistance. So I think there is a way this could happen because it's important for the families, but it's also important as an aviator myself for us to learn the causes of these incidents to make sure there's no repeat.

CO: But they haven't even shared the black boxes. And it doesn't seem like there's much cooperation. And so why are you so confident that Iran is actually going to open this investigation up and help Canada provide those answers to the families that are grieving?

EO: Well, look, there are losses there as well. And, in fact, many of those families were returning to Toronto, but using a Ukrainian aircraft. Often when there's these international flights, Carol, many countries are impacted. So I think there is going to be a lot of pressure on Iran to move past their intransigence in terms of not sharing the black box with Boeing or the U.S. And I think the Iranian citizens will want the same answers. The trouble in recent months has been the Iranian citizens really don't have their wills respected on anything in that country with the regime right now. But now the international attention from this crash will bring pressure. And I can't see them resisting a proper investigation to make sure this terrible tragedy doesn't get repeated.

CO: A number of people we've heard from, families in Iran who and here, who are trying to get information, are saying that how frustrating it is because there is no Canadian embassy, there's no consular assistance on the ground. And that's because under the Harper government, John Baird withdrew the embassy and closed those services in 2012. Do you think that the Conservatives should regret having done that as a government — that to not have at this point any presence on the ground that could be helping those families right away?

EO: No, there's certainly no regret. And it was the right decision given that we couldn't guarantee the safety of consular and embassy officials. And nothing shows that more, Carol, than the fact that Justin Trudeau ran in his election in 2015 about reopening the embassy or consular presence and didn't do that after he looked at the circumstances. Certainly, the late Ken Taylor was famous for The Canadian caper about another breach of an embassy and the safety of its officials. So we have to balance off the interests of having consular presence in a country like Iran with keeping our citizens and our interests safe. So it was a tough decision. But you make the tough decisions in favour of safety, in favour of your own people. And the fact that the Liberals haven't reversed that decision despite promising to do so kind of shows it was the right one.

CO: We can't forget that this is happening just after this this missile attack. Now, we heard Donald Trump say that there has to be a reshaping of the relationship with Iran. Is that something that if there was a Conservative government, do you think that Canada should find a way to join with Donald Trump as he reshapes this relationship with Iran?

EO: What we'd like to see is Iranian negative influence throughout the region to be stopped. Because if we're going to have a plan for long-term peace in the Middle East, there can't be proxy fighters being funded by a force that doesn't want peace. So we'd like to see more of this sort of sanctioning and blocking off of the IRTC. I think the Liberals have said they're moving on it, but we want to see less foot dragging.

CO: Well, this all began days ago when the United States assassinated Major General Qasem Soleimani. Mr. Trump said it was an opportunity and it was necessary to do. Do you agree with him? Do you think that it was necessary? Do you think it was the right thing to do to assassinate the major general?

EO: Well, I have a lot of faith in the United States military. When I was in Canada's Royal Canadian Air Force, I served with the Americans. And I know that any decision made with respect to a strike like this would be taken extremely serious with the top intelligence. And so there's a lot of faith that Canada should have in our allies. And sure there's politics, Carol, and there's a lot of politics in the United States at the moment, but their military is one of the most professional in the world. And so I know that there would be a good reason behind it. So we have to give faith in our allies.

CO: So you do think Canada should support the decision of the Trump administration to assassinate General Soleimani?

EO: I don't support any decision without the full information. What I'm saying is my experience is the U.S. military is professional, and only makes serious decisions like this when the proper information — the proper intelligence — and there is a threat. So without the full information, I try and always lean in favour of supporting my allies. But you can't make a decision on that with only a partial picture.

CO: Mr. O'Toole, we'll leave it there. Thank you.

EO: Thank you, Carol.

CH: Erin O'Toole is the Conservatives' Foreign Affairs critic. We reached him in Bowmanville, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Iran bombs Iraq

Guest: Robert Malley

CH: For the moment, at least, a full-fledged conflict between the United States and Iran seems like less of an imminent threat than it did just yesterday. The unlikely reason for that was a barrage of missiles fired by Tehran at American troops stationed in Iraq. That attack was in retaliation for Washington's assassination of top Iranian general Qassem Soleimani. Here's what U.S. President Donald Trump said earlier today about the missile attacks.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: I'm pleased to inform you the American people should be extremely grateful and happy. No Americans were harmed in last night's attack by the Iranian regime. We suffered no casualties. All of our soldiers are safe. And only minimal damage was sustained at our military bases. Our great American forces are prepared for anything. Iran appears to be standing down, which is a good thing for all parties concerned, and a very good thing for the world.

CH: That was President Trump speaking in Washington earlier today. Robert Malley is a former American negotiator with Iran under President Barack Obama. He's now the head of the NGO the International Crisis Group. We reached him in Washington.

CO: Mr. Malley, we heard President Trump say that Iran appears to be standing down. And he says that's a good thing for the world. Why do you think that he worded it that way? Why did he respond in that form?

ROBERT MALLEY: Well, partly because of the way Iran responded to the killing of Qassem Soleimani. The way Iran dealt with it was with a dramatic volley of ballistic missiles on a Iraqi base. But they didn't kill any Americans, they didn't kill anyone apparently. And so it gave enough for Iran to claim that it exacted some revenge, and enough for President Trump to declare victory and say ultimately the U.S. didn't pay a price for its very brazen attack that killed the Iranian general. So I think what President Trump was saying is if it stays at this, if this is all we see, we're content. And if that's enough for Iran to save face, so be it.

CO: But that begs the question does it seem that President Trump made a calculated risk to assassinate a senior member of Iran's regime and get away with it?

RM: You know, one could question whether it really is getting away with it when it has changed the momentum in Iran, which had been one of demonstrations against the regime, and now demonstrations against that killing of Qassem Soleimani. You've had the vote in the Iraqi parliament demanding the withdrawal of U.S. forces. You have had this attack against a base which was pretty dramatic, again without any casualties. But you're right that compared to what people expected if the story were to end now, President Trump could say with some justification that he got away with it, as you say. But that's why one has to ask the question, is this simply the end of one chapter, or is this the end of the story? And we know, for example, that Shia militia allied to Iran have said that their vengeance has not been completed because they lost one of their leaders as well. And Iran itself has said, in the voice of their supreme leader, this was a slap in the face of the Americans, but it's not the full extent of what we will do. So I think there still are question marks about where this is headed. And it would be too soon for anyone to say either that this was a Trump victory or a Trump defeat.

CO: Do we know at this point, do we have any more idea as to why this assassination was done at this time?

RM: We don't. But what we do know is that the story that the administration gave — which was that it was a case of self-defence because of an imminent threat. I think that is taking on water every day, and more by the day. And if you listen to what members of Congress — some Republicans and certainly the Democrats — who were just briefed by the administration on why they took this action. And the reactions from some members of Congress is one of outrage saying that there was nothing in what they heard that would justify the killing. And frankly, there's nothing that that I've heard, or I think anyone has heard from the administration, that would explain why they had to do this now and take the risk they did.

CO: Does it seem, in fact, that the administration is contradictory in that, I think, Mr. Pompeo is saying that it was in retaliation. Mr. Trump is saying is to prevent an attack. Do you think that they're not in agreement as to really why they did it?

RM: I think they're seeking sort of post-op justification for what they did, and I think it's pretty clear that they did what they did because they had a huge target. And they felt this was a way for the United States to reassert its deterrence power, and to send a message to Iran and others. As the president said today, don't mess with Americans. I don't think that they are politically embarrassed by legal niceties. I think some members of Congress may be. But from their perspective, this is a major coup, one that they think could change the United States position in the region, and change certainly the perception that America's foes have of the United States.

CO: Is it possible though that this was an effort to push a reset button on one particular issue? Because the first thing that the president said was that as long as I'm president of United States, Iran will never be allowed to have a nuclear weapon. And he said that he wants a new nuclear deal with Iran. Do you think that the upshot of this is that that is what he is pursuing? Because he's said that he denounced once again the agreement that Europe was still involved with as far as an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program. Do you think that that's what he's really pursuing now?

RM: It may be what he's pursuing. If it is what he's pursuing, he's living in fantasy land. There is no way, I would argue, right now in foreseeable future for this Iranian leadership to sit down with the United States after United States killed a revered member and essential pillar of the regime. I don't know what Iranian leader would be prepared to sit down with an American official. Hopefully, you'll see some kind of detente in which both sides take steps to de-escalate tensions. Because let's not forget, what triggered this whole sequence of events from Iran's attacks in the Gulf and then attacks through its militia force against an American base — which killed an American contractor — which led to the American retaliation — which then culminated in the killing of Qassem Soleimani. And then the Iranian attack on the Iraqi airbase. What triggered all of this was the decision by President Trump early on in his presidency to withdraw from the nuclear deal, to reimpose sanctions, and to try to strangulate Iran economically. It's to that that Iran has been reacting, both by reviving its nuclear program, and accelerating it. And by taking actions in the region — including some of the actions that led to America's response. That problem has not been resolved. Those sanctions still exist, the maximum pressure is still there, and if that doesn't change, the unfortunate likelihood is that Iran will act out again. Both by accelerating its nuclear program, and by taking some steps in the region to try to put pressure on the United States. And it is made clear that its goal now is to get American forces out of the region. So that's why I said this could be the end of a chapter. And it could be the end of a chapter that President Trump says has ended well for him. But I don't believe yet that it's the end of the story. This is a story that's going to go on for some time. It's going to take different forms. And Iran has not given up on its objective — which is to get economic alleviation from the pressure its suffering — and if it doesn't, to take action to put pressure back on the United States.

CO: Mr. Malley, I appreciate speaking with you. We'll leave it there.

RM: Thank you very much.

CH: Robert Malley is a former American negotiator with Iran. He's now the head of the International Crisis Group. He was in Washington.

[Music: Instrumental]

Part three: Iran crash: Guelph victim, romance writers kerfuffle

Ghosn speaks

CH: Japan says Carlos Ghosn is a fugitive — guilty of financial misdealings while he was running the automaker Nissan. Carlos Ghosn says he's an escaped hostage — who fled a country where he was being denied justice. Speculation about precisely how Mr. Ghosn escaped from Japan has been rampant since he materialized in Lebanon last week. And speaking to reporters for the first time today, the former auto executive did not address the many theories of trains, planes, and potentially having maneuvered himself into some kind of box. Carlos Ghosn did, however, respond to the claim that he's dodging the charges against him. Here's some of what he told CNN's Richard Quest in an interview today.

SOUNDCLIP

CARLOS GHOSN: I didn't leave Japan to hide somewhere. I left Japan because I'm looking for justice, and I want to clear my name — which means I'll be looking for a country where I could have this case tried. But with the trial respecting the rights of the defence.

RICHARD QUEST: One thing that seems clear is that you are regarded as a fugitive by others in the world. And that's not going to change, is it?

CG: Well, you have to explain. You know, people don't like fugitive when the fugitive is escaping justice. It's a different opinion when a fugitive is escaping injustice. You know, I don't think that people look at people who run from North Korea, or from Vietnam, or from Russia under the communist regime as people who are running from justice. Well, frankly, I can tell you that, I mean, in the system in which I've been through, I consider that there was practically zero chance I would get a fair trial. I was not running from justice. I was looking for justice.

RQ: I know you're not going to give many details, but can you say if the rumours and suggestions are substantially true? The rumour and suggestion I'm talking about involves a train trip to Osaka, a hotel, a box, and a flight, and of two private jets via Turkey. Is that substantially accurate?

CG: I would make no comment on this. I going to tell you why, Richard. Because, obviously, I was lucky to have people who supported me in this. Because, you know, when you are in a situation where you're in trouble with justice, you don't have too much candidate to help you. I was lucky, and I need to — as much as possible — protect them.

CH: That's former Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn, speaking with CNN's Richard Quest earlier today.

[Music: World music]

Iran crash: Guelph victim

Guest: Faisal Moola

CH: This morning's plane crash in Tehran took the lives of at least 63 Canadians. And among them were some of the country's best and brightest: students, doctors, engineers, and academics. One of the victims was Ghanimat Azhdari. She was an Indigenous woman originally from a nomadic tribe in Iran. She was in Canada working toward her PhD, and helping document the territories of Indigenous people in Iran and around the world. Faisal Moola was her PhD supervisor at the University of Guelph. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Faisal, first of all, I want to say that I'm sorry for your loss.

FAISAL MOOLA: Thank you.

CO: When you heard about this crash, did you immediately realize that your student, your friend, Ghanimat, was on the plane?

FM: I didn't. I was a bit surprised because I had heard that the flight was departing to the Ukraine. And so my immediate reaction was, well, that doesn't make sense. I just assumed that Ghanimat would have been on a flight — maybe a direct flight towards Canada. But my understanding now is that there were dozens of Iranian-Canadians on the flight that were in transit through the Ukraine, and on their way to Canada, and in some cases, such as in the case of Ghanimat, to universities in Canada.

CO: And, of course, we've learned is that this is an inexpensive rooting that many Canadians take that goes from Tehran to Toronto and onward in Canada. So when you learned, what went through your mind when you first knew that she had been on the plane?

FM: I was absolutely devastated for a number of reasons. One is is that I had been in correspondence with Ghanimat very shortly before this tragedy. And she had sent me an absolutely beautiful email describing her excitement about returning to the University of Guelph to continue her studies in the winter term. Ghanimat was doing work in support of indigenous peoples in the protection of nature in Canada. But also came with particularly international experience as an Indigenous nomadic person herself. But in her correspondence with me, she also raised her fears about the possibility of war on her home country, fears for her family and her friends. And also, something very profound was a recognition that a war would have untold ecological devastation to many of the very places that she was working so hard to protect.

CO: What was she like? What was Ghanimat like as a person?

FM: Ghanimat was an absolute effervescent person. She was an Indigenous person. She was a tribal person. She was incredibly proud of her heritage. She lived close to the land, and would oftentimes share stories with me about what it was like being an Indigenous person, being a tribal nomadic person.

CO: In Iran you’re speaking of, right?

FM: In Iran, yes, in Iran. She was a member of a tribal confederacy in Iran — which is a nomadic people. So, you know, we would oftentimes talk about what it was like to be an Indigenous person in Iran — which was remarkable because I'll tell you, I didn't even know there were Indigenous people in Iran until I met Ghanimat. And so I learned so much about her culture and her communities. At the same time, Ghanimat was very much involved at the international level in advancing the rights of Indigenous peoples — not just in Iran, but in Canada and across the world, as part of a consortium of Indigenous peoples that are trying to ensure that any international environmental agreements that come forward address the underlying sovereignty of Indigenous peoples, as well as protects their bio-cultural knowledge of their lands and their waters. So, to me, she was like a firecracker. She just was this incredibly powerful person, who felt so optimistic about her work in terms of advancing the protection of nature, but also the rights of Indigenous peoples in Iran and around the world.

CO: I'm just wondering, being a firecracker, and she's been described elsewhere as being like that. What she like with other students? What role did she play in the spirit of your school, University of Guelph, and in the department?

FM: Well, you know, one of the things I really liked about Ghanimat is that she really grounded the academic work at the University of Guelph as an Indigenous person. And, you know, we spend a lot of time as scholars with our heads sort of in our books, and in our academic papers, and our scientific results, and our data, and our statistical analysis, and all that sort of things. That's definitely how I was trained as a scientist. And Ghanimat brought real-world experience as an Indigenous person. She raised issues that oftentimes scientists don't think about. She talked about the importance of the knowledge of elders, the importance of women, the importance of youth, the way in which ecological knowledge is oftentimes captured in ceremony and in song and in tradition. And how that is just as important as a means of communicating information about the planet and our impacts on the planet as the latest new scientific study — which, you know, captures the headlines of the media. And so that's what I really appreciated about her was that grounding — that deep grounding — to place and to community. And I was so appreciative of that fact because it made the work that we're doing much, much more viscerally understood I think in my lab and amongst my students.

CO: When we first reached you, I know you were deeply emotional about this. So when you first heard the news, what is it that touched you the most about knowing this happened?

FM: [deep sigh] Well, I'm in terrible pain. I’m in absolute, absolute pain at that the knowledge of the loss of Ghanimat. And of I hear many other Iranians, many of whom I imagine are students. I think that this is a great loss not just for those families, not just for Iran. I think this is a great loss for Canada. You can go to any university in Canada and you will find Iranian students who are on campuses. And one of the things that my first reaction was that, you know, it's people like Ghanimat and the other students that have perished that are helping to forge relationships and connections between Canada and Iran. And that's so important right now at this time of conflict around the world.

CO: Faisal, I really appreciate you talking to us about your friend. Thank you.

FM: Thank you very much. Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

CH: We reached Faisal Moola in Toronto. He was the PhD supervisor of Ghanimat Azhdari, who died in the Ukrainian International Airlines crash in Iran this morning.

[Music: Ambient]

Alberta papers closed

CH: Back in the day, "stop the presses" meant you had a big story. More and more these days, stopping the presses is the big story. The latest casualties are three long-running newspapers in Alberta, which will print their final editions this month. Postmedia is shutting down the Edson Leader, the Hinton Parklander, and the Lacombe Globe. The Globe has been publishing in the town of Lacombe — which is just outside Red Deer — since 1901. And back in the '20s and '30s the paper played a role in fighting the rise of the Ku Klux Klan in Alberta. Today, Ashli Barrett is the Lacombe Globe’s only remaining reporter. And she will be its last. She spoke with CBC's David Gray this morning.

SOUNDCLIP

ASHLI BARRETT: Actually, the very first owner of the Lacombe Globe, in the 1920s when the KKK was free to mobilize, he started writing like a personal editorial campaign against them. And there was an incident where the local blacksmith got tarred and feathered. So he took the newspaper and called the KKK you know and a relic of the past, and wrote that they should be exterminated. And, of course, the KKK didn't like that. And so they threatened to burn down The Globe, and drive him out of town. And, you know, fortunately, that didn't happen. But, you know, he kind of he definitely spurred you know some resistance to the KKK, which prevented them from mobilizing completely, and getting a lot of support across the province. And, you know, certainly locally.

DAVID GRAY: Ashli, the last story you're going to report on the Lacombe Globe is the demise of the newspaper. When you talk to people in the community, people who've been there for a long time, and have bought that paper for a very long time, [both laugh] what are they saying to you?

AB: They're heartbroken. You know, these are people who you know they've not only read this newspaper, they grew up watching their parents and their grandparents reading this newspaper, and delivering it. And, you know, you hear the story of like little contests that local Lacombe Globe ran 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, and how people had still kept what they won from it. And, you know, you'd walk into the local coffee shops and Lacombe Globe is sitting there, and people were always picking it up and reading through it. And, you know, reading through it page by page. I mean, who does that anymore? You know, I think a lot of cases, the Lacombe community isn't surprised, but you know, it still hurts to have you know this newspaper that has been one of the longest running businesses in the community, you know, disappear and become part of history.

CH: Ashlie Barrett is the last reporter employed by the Lacombe Globe, which will publish its final edition this month. She spoke with CBC Calgary's "Eyeopener" this morning.

[Music: Indie rock]

Romance writers kerfuffle

Guest: Courtney Milan

CH: For the past few weeks, Courtney Milan's life has been a lot like the romance novels she writes — full of drama, plot twists, and even some heartbreak. The drama began in August, when Ms. Milan — who is Asian American — came under fire, after accusing another author of racism. In the months since, she's been accused of cyberbullying, she's been sanctioned by the industry group Romance Writers of America — and she's created a furor in an industry that has long been accused of racism and a lack of diversity. The controversy culminated this week in the cancellation of the Ritas — the annual romance writing awards — after hundreds of authors and judges said they would boycott the event in protest. We reached Courtney Milan near Denver, Colorado.

CO: Ms, Milan, when you hit send on Twitter way back in August, did you think that your tweets would end up having the impact you seeing today?

COURTNEY MILAN: I actually had no idea that that would be happening, no.

CO: Not even when you wrote your most controversial tweet about this novel, when you called it an expletive, racist mess? Did you think that was going to cause a kerfuffle?

CM: No, I actually didn't. It is a discussion on my own timeline about a book, and I think that people who care very much about books — as many authors do — often speak about books in strong language.

CO: That tweet was in reference to this novel written by Kathryn Lynn Davis. It's called “Somewhere Lies The Moon.” Can you describe what your problems were with that book?

CM: Well, one of the characters in that novel is a half-Chinese woman, who describes other Chinese people as having yellow skin, and uses some descriptions for Chinese people which repeatedly says that all women in China are submissive and bow their heads and meek. Since my family is from China, and the women in my family who immigrated to the United States came approximately around the same time as the book was set, I have family stories about women in China from the time period, who were not submissive and meek. And who did, in fact, act in ways that were contrary to what are being described there. And I think that pretty much anything that describes all Chinese women in a particular way is going to be wrong. And it's probably going to be a stereotype and racist.

CO: Did you read the novel?

CM: I read a portion of the novel.

CO: And is there is there any truth to the argument the author says if it was in context, the whole novel would have maybe changed your view. Did you consider that?

CM: No, I think that you can tell when something is a racist portrayal off the bat — because usually, if you have something in your book that you don't agree with, you find ways to signal it in the text. And this book had absolutely no signaling that indicated there were problems.

CO: So the author, and another author, filed…

CM: Can I can I say one thing here?

CO: Yes.

CM: I don't want to refer to them as authors because I was not talking about them in their capacity as authors. Susan Tisdale is an author. But the reason I was talking about her is because she runs a publishing house named Glenfinnan Publishing. Katherine Lynn Davis was an editor at that same publishing house. I wanted to talk about them because they run the machinery of publishing, and make decisions about who gets published. They're part of a systemic enterprise.

CO: I was just going to say that they filed ethics complaints, and Romance Writers of America — the organization — ruled you had violated their policy of creating a safe and respectful environment for the community of writers. What do you say to that?

CM: I think that the exact provision they used in the ethics report was that this was invidious discrimination. It's a legal term, and it says that invidious discrimination is discriminating against a class of people on the basis of who their class is. I think that calling out racism in the publishing industry is exactly the opposite of invidious discrimination. And there is absolutely no way that any rational person could find otherwise.

CO: They banned you from ever holding leadership positions, and suspended your membership for one year. That was the initial reaction. How did you feel when you got that decision?

CM: Well, the thing that I felt at that point was that the Romance Writers of America had become an organization that was unsafe for people of colour to exist in — because they could at any point decide to spend your membership simply for speaking up about issues that affected you.

CO: And this was not an isolation, that what was going on with you and your complaint about this one particular novel was part of a pattern, is that right?

CM: Yes, I was on the board of directors for the Romance Writers of America for four years. And during that time period, there were a number of us who made a substantial effort to listen to people who had been hurt by prior decisions that RWA had made. Women of colour who had not been received as you know real authors, so to speak. About the fact that no black woman had won the Rita until 2019 — after what was that? 30 years practically, and so many other things along those lines. There was a history here of discrimination. And there had been some hope that that history was being reversed, and RWA was making strides to change and to accept and to be inclusive. And I think that this decision sort of hit that flashpoint of people who had all this anger at things that had happened and had been holding it in. And so I don't think it was about one book or about what happened to me. I think it was about an entire history of discrimination by an organization coming to head in this one moment.

CO: And what happened then. What was the reaction to how they treated you?

CM: Well, I think the immediate reaction was a combination of shock and anger. The hashtag #IstandwithCourtney trended for a few hours. It was a slow news day, admittedly. And thereafter, people started telling stories about their experiences with RWA, ethics complaints they had tried to file against members who had engaged in racism against them where nothing happened. And people, I think, came to the conclusion very quickly that this was an organization with a significant problem, and it needed to be addressed. On the organization side, they announced that they had rescinded the decision pending legal advice.

CO: And you’re talking about the decision against you, to have you removed?

CM: Yes. Yes. On December 26, so the day after Christmas, eight members of the board of directors announced that they were resigning, citing a lack of faith in the leadership in the organization — all eight were women of colour.

CO: This is a moment of reckoning in the industry. And so one of the things that happened is that they canceled the Rita Awards for this year, so many the books were withdrawn. So what do you think's going to happen? Do you think that it's possible for Romance Writers of America to survive this?

CM: I'm not sure at this point. I have significant doubts. RWA is either going to have to take a stand against bigotry in its organization, and say here is what we're not going to allow. And if members engage in this kind of conduct, we're going to kick them out, and we're going to do just any number of things to make sure that this organization is truly inclusive, or it's on the side of bigotry. And people will be able to file ethics complaints if you say that their books are racist. And either of those choices is very difficult for RWA to make — because it means losing somewhere between 30 to 60 per cent of their membership either way. I'm not sure if there is a way out of this for the organization.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. Ms. Milan, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CM: Thank you.

CH: Courtney Milan is a best-selling romance writer. We reached her near Denver, Colorado.

[Music: Ambient]

Dog mood vest

CH: There are times you don't fully understand what is motivating your dog's behaviour. Why does it always sigh so dramatically? Why won't it stop eating your underpants? And why does it stare at you while it's voiding its bowels in your neighbour's yard? Still, generally speaking, figuring out your dog's emotions doesn't require a graduate degree in canine psychology. They're happy, or they're excited, or they're worried, or they have to void their bowels in your neighbour's yard. Pretty straightforward. Of course, maybe your dog doesn't wear its heart on its sleeve. In which case, Inupathy — an emotion-sensing vest for dogs — can help. Except with the sleeve part. It's a vest, like I said. Every year, the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas showcases a bunch of new technology, from the sublime to the ridiculous. And this year, Inupathy is one or both. It monitors your dog's heart rate. The harness-slash-vest then interprets that information as feelings, which appear as a colour-coded display: light green for "relaxed", white for "interested", red for "excited", lavender for "stressed", and a rainbow of colours for "happy". To your non-surprise, there's also a smartphone app, which enables you to track all these dog feelings over time. Now, this might really improve the communication between you and your dog, which would be great. But it might just be unnecessary, and kind of expensive. So it may not mean a dramatic change to your relationship with your dog. But for the company that makes it, it's a real wags-to-riches story.

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January 8, 2019 episode transcript

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