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The AIH Transcript for January 6, 2020

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Warning amid the mourning. Iranians poured into the streets today to mourn the death of top general, Qassem Soleimani — as officials vowed “severe revenge” on the United States.

CH: Shifting sands. With his country caught in the middle of sabre-rattling between two of its allies — the U.S. and Iran — an Iraqi MP worries it's his country that will pay the heftiest price.

CO: The big picture. The trial of former movie mobile Harvey Weinstein started in New York today. Our guest — one of dozens of women who accuse him of sexual misconduct — is hoping justice will be served.

CH: The Love Song of T.S. Eliot. Decades after his death, the release of hundreds of love letters written by the celebrated poet reveal a man heartsick for his muse — a woman who never became his partner.

CO: icing infraction. In a tangled, real-life reversal of The Hockey Sweater, a young Quebec boy is dismayed when his Toronto Maple Leafs birthday cake mistakenly features the logo from Maple Leaf Foods.

CH: And when they low, he aims high. An Ontario livestock auctioneer who became the national champ when he was just 23 is headed to South Dakota — to try to qualify for the world championships.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that calls out like nobody's bid-ness

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Iran funeral, Weinstein trial, auctioneer competition

Iran funeral

Guest: Pooria Asteraky

CH: In Iran today, there was a massive public display of sorrow, respect, and anger at the funeral of Qassem Soleimani. Mourners paying respect to the country's slain general numbered in the millions, according to authorities. As some on the street chanted "death to America", Iranian officials promised "severe revenge" for the assassination of the military commander. Meanwhile, U.S. President Donald Trump ratcheted up the rhetoric even further. He said the U.S. would respond swiftly to any retaliation from Iran, and that the country's famed cultural sites would not be exempt from attack. Pooria Asteraky lives in Iran, where he works as a Digital Marketing Manager. We reached him in Tehran.

CO: Pooria, first of all, can you just describe for us the scene on the streets today in Tehran as Qassem Soleimani’s funeral preceded?

POORIA ASSTERAKY: The funeral took place in a street about six kilometers long. And it's a very wide street. The whole line was populated with people, and there were people from different parts of society. It wasn't like only religious people attend or only military people. I think everyone from every part of Iranian society was there today.

CO: Have you ever seen anything like that in your time — where people from all walks of life, from all different society classes came together the way they did in Tehran today?

PA: Nothing at all. I have seen many, many protests, but today was next to no one and nothing similar I've seen in my entire life. I mean, today was something very special. And not only in the number of people, but also in the mood of people who were attending the protest.

CO: What was the mood? Can you describe that?

PA: Sorrow, anger, pride, and people are really upset. You could read they read it on their faces that how sad they are. And it was too emotional. Many people were crying, and people were chanting. It was a really impressive and emotional.

CO: But there are some reports that possibly a number of the people who are there were compelled to attend the funeral to be in the streets. That it was something that they didn't have a choice to do. Is there any truth to that?

PA: I mean, attending protests is compulsory is just a silly joke — that's impossible. That's impossible to organize and mobilize and just do everything. And it's out of power of any government or organization in Iran to mobilize such huge crowds.

CO: You know that there are different interviews people have been giving over these days — people in Iran who are reformists, who don't support the regime, and talking about Mr. Soleimani, even if they didn't approve of what he was doing, were feeling strong emotions for him. Did you support the work of Mr. Soleimani before this? Is it something that you have come to in this event?

PA: Yeah, I was respecting him deeply for many years. He was a key person in protecting the people from terrorism and extremism and groups like ISIS. He was the key person that kept our country safe. And also, help other countries to get rid of ISIS, al-Qaida, al-Nusra all these organization groups.

CO: You know, you describe him as someone who kept Iran safe. But other people in other countries didn't see him as such a hero — not just in the United States, where he was regarded as a terrorist, but he worked with the Quds Force, he worked to help Bashar al Assad in Syria, a man who was killing — still continues to kill his own people. He supported militias in Lebanon, who were killing civilians — including attacks on Israel. So can you appreciate that there are people outside your country that don't regard him as a heroic person?

PA: What I can say is that Soleimani were fighting with Taliban and al-Qaida in Afghanistan, fighting with ISIS in Iraq, fighting with ISIS and al-Nusra and al-Qaida in Syria. Our opponents were ISIS, al-Qaida, and al-Nusra. And if you if you condemn that, or if you think that's not true, that's your choice to make.

CO: As you know, the United States is saying that if Iran does anything, if it retaliates, that Mr. Trump is saying that he will strike back, and he will not be proportionate. What do people in Iran fear about what United States might do next?

PA: You know, one of the reasons that people of Iran are always sad and worried after the United States assassinated General Soleimani is that, on one hand, we have to retaliate because if we don't retaliate, they do it again and again and again.

CO: So how might Iran retaliate, do you think?

PA: I think Iran is retaliating hitting where it really hurts in that manner.

CO: What are you suggesting?

PA: I don’t know what exactly, I don't know what exactly we’ll do. But I am sure that Iran will hit it where it really hurts. But, but, I don't think Iran would do anything to attack or to suffer or to hurt civilians.

CO: Well, Iran has had strikes before that did hurt civilians. Do you think that that's possible? People in Israel in particular, do think that would be a target of Iran for retaliation?

PA: You know, what I see is that Israel is an invading, illegitimate force. And when we are taking to Israel, we cannot just forget Palestine or Palestinians, okay? You cannot see one side of a story

CO: Is there any way at this point, do you think, to bring the temperature down, to try and bring some peace or some kind of, any kind of talk, back to this situation? Or do you think it’s way past?

PA: Of course, of course, of course, there is something that that could really help peace. You know, we have a long history with U.S. — a long history of terror, bullying. They supported Saddam. They supported al-Qaeda. They supported any force which would harm Iran. See, U.S. can do a favour to everyone: just leave us alone. Leave us alone.

CO: Pooria, I really appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

PA: Thank you so much.

CH: We reached Pooria Asteraky in Tehran. And coming up later on As It Happens: an Iraqi MP worries that the conflict between Iran and the United States will end with his country paying the price.

[Music: Instrumental]

Weinstein trial

Guest: Katherine Kendall

CH: The waiting is over. Harvey Weinstein's trial began today in New York. He is accused of sexually assaulting two women in that state. He has pled not guilty. If convicted, he faces a possible life sentence. Hours after his New York court appearance, the Los Angeles County District Attorney laid fresh charges against the former movie mogul — of raping one woman and sexually assaulting another in 2013. Outside the courthouse in Manhattan, a group of women gathered — just some of the more than eighty who have accused Mr. Weinstein of sexual misconduct. They call themselves The Silence Breakers. Actor Rose McGowan is one of them:

SOUNDCLIP

ROSE MCGOWAN: The trial means so much to so many. But it will mean the most to the brave women testifying and to all of us Silence Breakers. I think those testifying for standing, not just for themselves, but for all of us who will never have even one day in court. Today is a day for us to honour how far we've come, and how much we've endured to get here.

CH: That was Rose McGowan speaking outside the trial of Harvey Weinstein today in New York. Katherine Kendall is also a Silence Breaker. She says Mr. Weinstein invited her to a business meeting in 1993, then chased her, while nude, around his New York apartment. We reached We reached Katherine Kendall in Los Angeles.

CO: Ms. Kendall, we just heard Rose McGowan talking about how much this trial means to so many people. What does it mean to you?

KATHERINE KENDALL: Well, I mean, Rose put it so well. It makes me really emotional just to talk about it because in some ways this day should have come a long time ago. And it's amazing that it didn't. That it's so incredible that it's here now. And it means so much. It's like we're really feeling, I think, that we’re in a pivot point. And this whole subject — which is a hard one to talk about — the subject of sexual violence and sexual assault and harassment, it's confusing and horrible. But it's being taken seriously in a way that we've needed for so long.

CO: You are one of the Silence Breakers, and many of them are going to be attending the trial. Will you be there? Will you be in the courtroom?

KK: I believe I'm going to try to make it for the opening statements, so that after the jury's been selected, I'm going to try to go to New York.

CO: And what effect do you think that will have on you?

KK: Well, I'm not going to lie, it's scary because it means that I have to you know bring him back into my focus in a way. I have to confront him again, even if I don't speak to him. And I think that's emotional for sure. And I'm not going to pretend like I'm just so strong, I can handle it, I can't wait, I’m going to get there. I think I'll feel a lot of feelings. But I also think for the history of my life, that this will be an important moment for me personally. Like, it is very personal.

CO: You're one of dozens of women who have spoken out, who have made allegations about Harvey Weinstein's conduct. But so far, this is the only criminal trial he faces. And he's charged with sexually assaulting his former production assistant in 2006, and was raping a woman in 2013. What kind of weight this is put on this trial just on these two women?

KK: It's enormous. I've been thinking of them I mean just day and night, day and night, and how they must be feeling, and the kind of courage that it's going to take, that it is taking. I thought about it a long time ago. You know, I know many people could have come forward to do this. And it's really a scary thing to do because we know that Harvey's lawyer is going to do everything he can to discredit them. And it's going to be a tough situation. So these women are so strong, and I'm so grateful to them. I just can't get over it. I mean, I wish they really knew how many people are behind them, and they probably have an idea. But they are the ones doing it, and it's wonderfully brave.

CO: The lead attorney for Mr. Weinstein, Donna Rotunno, told ABC — this is a quote — if you don't want to be a victim, don't go to the hotel room. What are you expecting to see from his defence team?

KK: It's victim-blaming. I've heard she's nicknamed “The Bulldog.” I don't think I'll be surprised anything that she does. But it's also so insulting to hear something like that. I mean, she said you know if you want to say something, go stand on Fifth Avenue and speak into a megaphone. Nobody ever does that. You know, victims feel shame from the second everything happens. The fact that they can ever even talk to one person is a miracle, and that's what we're all trying to help get moved along, is for people that have been victims to feel like they can speak at all. And she seems like not a very empathic or sympathetic person. But she's also defending Harvey Weinstein.

CO: When his lawyers — as they've said they're going to — when they bring up issues of this and the e-mails from the women they say that show that the women maintained friendly relations with Mr. Weinstein, how do you think the jury's going to see that?

KK: Well, I'm praying that they're going to have somebody there like a psychiatrist or psychologist that explain the mentality of a victim. Because I think that more often than not, victims do speak to their abuser again — especially in the workplace. And they do it for a number of reasons, but one reason is it's just almost like a biological reason. It's a survival mechanism to reclaim their power and rewrite the story. And it's such a hard thing for people to believe in and deal with. The brain does all kinds of things, and the body does all kinds of things to help us find our way.

CO: What if he is acquitted? What will that mean?

KK: Well, there’ll be that the L.A. trial. I mean, it's going to be so emotional if he's acquitted. I can't even imagine, and I hope that we won't feel an incredible defeat — we meaning all of the survivors of Harvey, and survivors everywhere that are sort of looking at this, hoping that they're going to see justice. I think it's going to feel like the justice system hasn't caught up to what's happening with the people and the morals of this country. And I think it's going to be easy to feel defeated. But I think it's important to remember that like we've started something that is not going to stop. And it's on us, but it's on everyone right now to keep that movement going because it belongs to everyone. I mean, it's not on us, but it's all of ours anyway. So I think it's already been tipped. We can't go backwards.

CO: I really appreciate speaking with you, Ms. Kendall. Thank you.

KK: Oh gosh, thank you. I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CH: Katherine Kendal is an actor and one of the many women who have accused Harvey Weinstein of sexual misconduct. She was in Los Angeles.

[Music: World music]

Auctioneer competition

Guest: Ab Carroll

CH: It's been said that you get what you pay for. And if what you're hoping to get — or get paid for — are cows, then Ab Carroll is your man. The Ontario man auctions off millions of dollars in cattle each week. And in 2018, when Mr. Carroll was just 23, he won the Canadian Livestock Suctioneer Championship. Now he's got his sights set on the world championships. But first, he's headed to a qualifying event in Yankton, South Dakota on Wednesday. We reached Ab Carroll in Cookstown, Ontario — north of Toronto.

CO: Ab, what are you auctioning off today?

AB CARROLL: Well, Carol, today we're selling sheep, lamb, and goats up here at the Ontario Stockyards.

CO: Do you want to give us a sample of how you're doing that?

AB: Yeah, so basically, the lambs will come in the door, and I would go [AC begins a sort of chant]

CO: Okay, and what did you just sell?

AB: Oh, probably ten lambs, at about 100 pounds.

CO: And is that how long it would have taken?

AB: Approximately, yeah. It usually takes anywhere from 25 to 30 seconds.

CO: All right. Now, what is the key to your auctioneering that makes it effective?

AB: Well, the whole key to the auctioneering is the clarity of the voice and your speed and your rhythm. The reason the auction works so well is because we're able to take a large volume of product, bring it to one location, and sell it to a number of buyers in a quick, timely manner. I mean, if we're selling ten, 15 lambs or sheep or cattle every 25 to 30 seconds, we can move a lot of product in a hurry. And the auction, that rapid-fire chance quick-talking creates a sense of urgency, which is then transferred to the buyers, making them want to bid. And it just creates for a very exciting and fast atmosphere.

CO: Okay, so not everything you're saying is a real word then?

AB: Well, yes it is, actually. Everything we're saying is a real word sped up. The backbone of the dialect, of course, is the numbers or the currency. So it’d be: two dollar bid, now two bid, two dollar bid, give three, bid three, dollar bid, now four. And not necessarily in that order, the words kind of come to you once you do it enough. But they’re all words. They’re all numbers and filler words put together just in a mishmash.

CO: That's called “The Cattle Rattle?”

AB: [slight chuckle] That's kind of the name that people in our industry give it. The actual name is called “The Auction Chant.”

CO: Okay. Because you come from a family of cattle farmers, so when was your first auction? what got you started in it?

AB: Like, I can remember going to auctions as a kid fairly regularly — almost every weekend. But the first time that I really thought wow, that's interesting, that's something I want to do. It was at my 4H end of the year meeting — they had a pie auction. A local auctioneer came in to auction them off. And we were all sitting there kind of kind of bored at this awards ceremony, and he had a way of getting everyone excited again. And he sold these pies, and really turned that into a fun, exciting, competitive bidding process. We had 4H leaders bidding against each other, and neighbours bidding against each other. And I just remember thinking how fun and exciting that whole process seemed to be.

CO: How long did it take you to go from pies to cows?

AB: [chuckle] Right after that night, I started practicing all the time. I'd practiced a lot of tongue twisters. And that was when I was 14. I started selling chickens and rabbits, and got my auctioneering certificate. I'd say when I was 19 is when I started here at the Ontario Stockyards. So it took me about five years to get to where I am.

CO: Right, and then in 2018, you won the Canadian Livestock Auctioneer Championship, you're 23 years old. What do people think? Do they think you're just a bit of an upstart? Did anyone think you're too big for your britches ever?

AB: [laughing] Oh, I'm sure there's people who think that for sure. No, I'd say everyone that I've dealt with has been incredibly supportive. Yeah, it was certainly an honour to win that championship for sure.

CO: Well, you're going to South Dakota to compete for a chance to be in the world championships. How are you preparing for that?

AB: Well, every day, I try to get online and see what are their cattle worth? What are their lambs worth? What are their cows worth? Then, I spend a lot of time practicing in the car, practicing in the tractor, when I'm feeding cows, or when I'm doing whatever. I find myself quite often auctioning fence posts or off auctioning off the cows [co laughing]. It's the only way that you get any better.

CO: All right, we're trying to think of something here that we could get you to auction to see if you could actually sell anything. And the thing we thought of was that there's a famous interview that has been on As It Happens, in 1976, it was Barbara Frum did interview with a British farmer who had grown the world's largest cabbage — five feet high, five feet across. And so we're going to pitch that at you and see if you can sell it.

AB: [doing his chant thing again]

CO: Oh boy! So you just sold that cabbage for $2,400?

AB: That's right [chuckling].

CO: Well done. Okay, we're thrilled with that [both laugh]. Ab, best of luck.

AB: Hey, I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

CO: We’ll be watching. Thanks, bye-bye.

AB: Bye-bye.

CH: Ab Carroll is a cattle farmer and auctioneer. On Wednesday, he'll be in South Dakota to compete in a qualifying event for the World Livestock Auctioneer Championships. Today, we reached him in Cookstown, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Maple Leaf cake

CH: If Canada ever declared a national hockey story, a top contender would certainly be The Hockey Sweater. Chances are you've heard the Roch Carrier story before — at least once. Maybe even on this show, we air his reading nearly every December. It's a true story — one that happened to Mr. Carrier when he was just a boy growing up in small town Quebec, and his idol was Maurice "Rocket" Richard — the star player of the Montreal Canadiens. Young Roch wears his Habs sweater — with Richard's number, Nine, emblazoned on the back — religiously. Until he wears it out, and his mother orders a replacement from the Eaton's catalogue. You don't have to be a Habs fan — or even a hockey fan — to appreciate how disappointing it is for the boy to mistakenly receive a Toronto Maple Leafs jersey in the mail. That despair has played out in one way or another, for all of us, at some time. As it surely played out for another young boy from Quebec, named Jacob. Jacob is also a big hockey fan, who recently celebrated his birthday. But unlike Roch Carrier, Jacob roots for the Leafs. So his mother promised him a cake, decorated with the team's logo. And that's essentially what they scored from a local pastry shop, even if it's not what they were shooting for: the unmistakable emblem Maple Leaf... Foods — proud producers of processed meat. Roch Carrier's classic ends with him praying that God will send moths to devour his Maple Leafs sweater. Hopefully Jacob won't have to have his cake and eat it too.

[Indie rock]

Part two: Iran: Iraq MP, T.S Eliot letters

Iran: Iraq MP

Guest: Sarkawt Shamsulddin

CH: The killing of Iran's top general, Qassem Soleimani, has tensions spiking across the Middle East. In Iraq, where the assassination took place, the balance of power appears to be shifting as we speak. Two of the country's top allies — the U.S. and Iran — are now trading escalating threats. NATO has decided its too risky, so it's suspended its fight against the resurgent threat of ISIS terrorism. And yesterday, Iraq's parliament voted to back the prime minister's plan to remove all foreign forces — a move that has Donald Trump threatening sanctions. Sarkawt Shamsulddin is a Kurdish Member of Parliament who sits in the opposition. We reached Mr. Shamsulddin in Sulaymaniyah, Iraq.

CO: Mr. Shamsulddin, as you know, President Donald Trump says he has made the world a safer place on Friday. How much safer are Iraqis today, in your view?

SARKAWT SHAMSULDDIN: Well, the consequences of his decision to strike members of the Iranian government and also Iraqi government made the situation, at least for Iraqis, much more dangerous. I don't know what he's talking about, and I don't think in the long run it is going to make us safer. Because any unilateral and military decision against a foreign country that is really at war with the United States for 40 years on Iraqi soil is not going to make Iraq at least safer. As we speak, the foreign companies, foreign investors are leaving Iraq. The foreign missions are scaling down their activities in Iraq. So I don't know how safe is that that President Trump is describing.

CO: But what's your sense of was there a strategy behind this? And we're talking about assassinations here, aren't we? I mean, and not just of Soleimani, but also the Iraqi commander Abu Mahdi al-Mohandes. They were assassinated. What do you think was behind that? Can you see a strategy or a course of action here?

SS: We have been struggling to understand the United States strategy in Iraq and also in the entire region administration to administration. But it has been even more difficult with this administration. It's unpredictable what they want to do. And they are not sharing actually any intelligence matters that is input crucial to the Iraqi side anymore. And they are taking unilateral decisions. I don't think there's any strategy beyond just killing somebody who U.S. sees as a threat to them. But also, there were Iraqi elements within this strike. And U.S., if they didn't have any intention to kill a Iraqi official, they should have just apologized for that. But they have problems with Iran, that's a different thing. They should have taken actions within Iranian territory, not Iraqi territory. Iraq is not a place for the U.S. to revenge or take action against Iranians. We have been telling them in private conversation and in public, I personally had many conversations with the U.S. officials, as a Member of Parliament, and as a member of the U.S.-Iraqi Friendship Committee. We have been telling them we want to have business with U.S. We want to have peaceful relationship. But also, just to try not to drag Iraq into your conflict with Iran.

CO: What's your greatest fear at this point? I mean, you are a Kurd, you're saying that the Kurds are supporting the United States being there for the time being. But you're looking at some pretty serious threats going both ways. What's your greatest concern of what is going to happen in the region?

SS: My great concern is about the Iraqi civilians, Iraqi people, the protesters that are on street, the peaceful protesters on street. They have a legitimate cause to bring about change and reform. And all of this will be sacrificed because of the tensions between the United States and Iran with Iraq has no business in. It’s just because we are located in a place that's really having the longest border with Iran. And also, we have partnership with the United States, and we are being sacrificed for that. And the Iraqi people have been suffering from war and conflicts for so many decades. And we had a moment of success after ISIS and a moment of stability. This is the opportunity we are losing. And the Iraqis again facing problems, sanctions, and also economic conditions that's not because of our problems because of other countries trying to have their differences result on our soil.

CO: Who do you blame for that, though?

SS: Both Iran and U.S.

CO: And Iraq?

SS: well, the Iraqi state is very weak. The institutions are very weak. We cannot really oppose Iran and and U.S. if they do not respect our stance. If they want us to take sides, that's the problem. Each side is pushing Iraq. Each side is trying to have Iraq on its side. While the Iraqi side want the government to stay neutral. They don't want the protesters, there is a hashtag on Twitter, like thousands of people are saying that the decision in Parliament against U.S. is not representing me. I mean, they do not support that. They do not want confrontation with the U.S. But also, they do not want any confrontation with Iran. We want to have our country run by ourselves, not by Iranian, not by the U.S. We want to have a respectful and peaceful relation with both sides. But both sides are not really respecting Iraqi sovereignty. One is trying to use militias. The other one is trying to use its bases. It is breaching that agreement we had with the United States for the fight against ISIS. But they are using their prisons in Iraq to other purposes, which is really a violation of the agreement we had with them.

CO: We had the statement today from the Canadian government. And as you know, this call for removal of foreign troops does include Canadians who are there.

SS: Exactly.

CO: And that are our minister and the Iraqi minister talked today about trying to de-escalate, to keep up with the engagement. Is that possible? Do you think it's possible to de-escalate and engage at this point?

SS: If we have U.S. to stop taking unilateral decisions — especially military actions — on the Iraqi soil, I think there is still time to save this and to de-escalate to really continue our relationship. It was hurt by that decision taken by the President Trump, but still there's time to save these relations with the United States and with Canada with other members of the international coalition in the fight against ISIS. Because we are still facing the threat of ISIS, and we still need U.S., Canada, France, and all of the European countries who are part of this mission to really prevent the emergence of ISIS. They are really mobilizing their resources. And their sleeper cells are reactivated in some areas. And they are benefiting from this conflict.

CO: We will leave it there for now. Mr. Shamsulddin, thank you.

SS: Thank you for having me.

CH: Sarkawt Shamsulddin is an Iraqi opposition Member of Parliament. We reached him in Sulaymaniyah, Iraq. And you can find more on this story on our website, at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Jazz]

Kelly Fraser vigil

CH: She always drew a crowd as a singer. But on Saturday, hundreds gathered in Winnipeg not to watch her perform — but to remember Kelly Fraser and to pray for her at a candelight vigil. The Juno-nominated singer grew up in Nunavut. But she was living in Winnipeg when she died by suicide last month at age 26. In addition to her music, Ms. Fraser was also a passionate advocate for Inuk culture and language — which she promoted by translating pop songs like Rihanna's "Diamonds" into Inuktitut. Ms. Fraser's sister, Maxine Angoo spoke to CBC about the legacy Kelly Fraser leaves behind:

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A drum circle and signing in the distance]

MAXINE ANGOO: My sister was living with me here in Winnipeg. My baby sister was very fierce and stubborn at the same time [slight chuckle]. I don't know. I can't really say, there was a lot of things. She was struggling with a lot of demons. And we all tried helping her. And she struggled silently because that's just what she was. She just wanted people to see and hear everything good. She just wanted to be happy.

DANA HATHERLY: During this difficult time, what's the biggest learning opportunity here?

MA: That you need to go back to your roots, your traditions, your culture, your language, whatever it is. Because that was what she fought for. She fought for revitalizing our language. And she just wanted everybody to never forget it. And now my kids, she only spoke Inuktitut to my baby, and that's why we have to keep going. Spread love, people. It's so much easier to live when you spread love.

CH: That was Maxine Angoo, speaking to CBC's Dana Hatherly on Saturday — during a candelit vigil for Ms. Angoo's sister, Kelly Fraser. The Juno-nominated singer took her own life on Christmas Eve. She was 26. If you believe you or someone you know may be at risk of suicide, you can call the Canada Suicide Prevention Service at 1-833-456-4566. Again, that is 1-833-456-4566. Or text 45645.

[Music: Ambient]

T.S. Eliot letters

Guest: Frances Dickey

CH: In T.S. Eliot's poem "Burnt Norton," the 20th century American poet laments how different his life could have been. "Footfalls echo in the memory," he writes, "down the passage which we did not take, towards the door we never opened." Scholars have long-debated what Eliot meant here — and who he's referring to. Decades later, the answer is revealed in an extraordinary trove of love letters. More than eleven-hundred letters, written by Eliot to his muse Emily Hale, were released this month at Princeton University. The letters reveal a man heartsick and in love with Ms. Hale — a woman he never ended up with. Frances Dickey is the President of the T.S. Eliot Society and one of a handful of scholars who has been pouring over the letters at Princeton. That's where we reached her.

CO: Ms. Dickey, You'd had known for years that these letters existed, so what was it like to finally get your hands on them?

FRANCES DICKEY: It was an unexpectedly thrilling experience. I really did not know what the letters would contain, but I suspected there would be nothing explosive in them. But that was so wrong. And the first letter that I read was just an outpouring of love and admiration for Emily Hale — which really went beyond anything that that we had anticipated.

CO: And why had you not anticipated that? What was it about T.S. Eliot that made to made you think there’s not gonna be anything in these letters that he wrote to Emily Hale?

FD: I think we underestimated his capacity for deep and passionate love for this woman that he had known for many years. And suddenly, in 1930, they made contact again. And he was just madly in love with her. And it's just a side of him as a poet that I think we didn't understand. And now that I've spent several days reading the letters, I feel like I understand him better. And also, I feel like I don't know what to expect in each further letter.

CO: Can you characterize the way he describes his love for Emily Hale?

FD: He characterizes it as a love that has both a human and emotional element — and also, a divine element. He feels that Emily has led him to God. And he addresses her in very worshipful terms as “My Dear Lady.” And this is a word that he uses in the poem “Ash Wednesday” — which is an address to a lady who seems somewhat like the Virgin Mary, but he tells her that she is the lady of Ash Wednesday.

CO: And that was a poem that has been called a conversion poem.

FD: Yes.

CO: Because that was at the time he converted to Anglicanism. And his poetry changed quite a bit too. So is it obvious that she had a great influence on him? She was a muse in many ways?

FD: Yes, she was his muse. And I think it went beyond the role that we thought she played in his life. And he's very specific in the letters about where she appears in his poetry, that she is the hyacinth girl of the wasteland. She is the lady of Ash Wednesday. And, of course, she figures in the poem “Burnt Norton” as well.

CO: He married twice during the time that he knew Emily Hale.

FD: Yes.

CO: But never married Emily Hale.

FD: Right.

CO: How did he know her? What was their relationship?

FD: Elliot met Emily when he was a graduate student at Harvard. They socialized together, and even participated in some amateur theatricals. He knew her quite well, and they spent quite a bit of time together in Cambridge. After he spent this time with her, he confessed his love to her in 1914. And then he went to England. And he didn't offer her a marriage proposal. And he went off and he married someone else. So he ended up, he says, regretting that very deeply.

CO: Well, it was a disastrous marriage, and she died in 1947.

FD: Yes I did.

CO: And is there any sense that Ms. Hale expected him now that to come back and marry the woman he professed to love so ardently?

FD: Absolutely, she did expect that. And she had in many ways staked her life on it. I've read the letters that follow Vivian's death, and they really are heart-rending because Elliot expected to marry Emily. And then when Vivian died, he found that he couldn't. The moment had passed, and he no longer felt that way about her, and she accepts that. And then ten years later, he married someone else.

CO: Now, she decided she was going to donate these letters. And they weren’t to be opened until well after the both of them had died. But there is something else, [chuckling] and a twist in the story, isn't there? That T.S. Eliot found out that she had donated the letters to the university, to Princeton. And what did he do?

FD: He was not surprised that she entrusted them to Princeton Library. But what really set him off was that she decided to write her own narrative to accompany the letters. It's at that moment that he decided to write his narrative. He says that when Vivian died, he discovered that his love for Emily was the love of a ghost for a ghost. And that he had stopped loving her long before. And he says several somewhat harsh things in that letter, that marrying Emily would have killed the poet in him. He means that if he had married her in 1914, and stayed in America and been a philosophy professor as his parents expected, then he wouldn't have been a poet. And that's probably true, but not necessarily her fault. So he really turns on her in this letter that he wrote in 1960.

CO: But why would he do that? He would know that his letter — this denial — would be published at the same time or released at the same time as the letters. And the letters would overwhelmingly prove otherwise. [both chuckling] So why would he do it? He must know that we know we're talking about this right now, and saying it doesn’t make sense.

FD: Well, I think it was just a rage of a man who can't control the future. And you know, he's at the end of his life. But he's married a younger woman, and he wants the narrative of their love to be the one that is preserved. That Valerie was the one true love of his life. He burned Emily Hale's letters, but he can't do away with the evidence that he did truly love her. So I think there's some bad faith and frustration in that 1960 letter. But she gave her account. And at the end of her account — which is very fair — she doesn't lay any blame at his feet. She just says Let the record speak — which I think is very powerful because she knew that we would read these letters one day.

CO: It's just an absolutely fascinating story. And Ms. Dickey, I appreciate you telling it. Thank you.

FD: Thank you.

CH: Frances Dickey is a T.S. Eliot scholar. She teaches English at the University of Missouri. We reached her in Princeton, New Jersey.

[Music: Piano]

Chris new host

CO: I already had my chance. And I'll admit: I didn't dig up too much dirt. As you may have heard, when we first announced Chris Howden as my new co-host, I put him through a grueling interview. I only got a measly confession out of him that he's been listening to As It Happens since he was a kid. And then, the juiciest detail — he once tried to rewrite Star Wars. [CH laughs] Thankfully today, to mark his first official day on the job, Chris has been back in the hot seat on a radio field-trip of sorts. He's been meeting and greeting with CBC hosts across the country — including one voice, familiar to any As It Happens listener.

SOUNDCLIP

CH: It's a pleasure to hear your voice.

JEFF DOUGLAS: It's a very great pleasure to hear yours, too. I mean, I hear it pretty well every night. But to have it answer questions is very… [CH laughs] And actually have a response.

CH: Well, we’ll see if it can answer questions.

JD: I'm sure you'll be fine.

CH: That’s debatable.

JD: Let's talk a bit about your lineage or your relationship with this show, because you're no spring chicken when it comes… [both laugh]

CH: Period.

JD: Yeah, period. And when it comes As It Happens, you have had a relationship with the show for a long time. So let's just talk a bit about when you started, and what you've done over the years.

CH: Sure, it's I think, unless I miss misremember, it has been now 16 years that I've been on As It Happens. And I started as an associate producer. I answered mail, and you know did sort of office stuff. And then I was the director for a while. I sat in the studio and pointed at Barbara Budd and Mary Lou Finlay when they were supposed to talk. There's more to that job. I don’t want to insult the current director [JD laughs] But, you know, that's one of the things I did. Then, I became the writer. And so I've been the writer for about ten years, writing the certainly the opening of the show, and the pun.

JD: The pun — which is huge, huge, huge, huge for people across this country. Now and I should say, I want to say this too for those listening here that you as a writer as well, wrote virtually all the beautiful, concise, scathingly funny monologues that any of the co-hosts presented over the past decade. So for everyone out there, anyone who listened during Barbara Budd's time in the chair, or my time in the chair, they have already heard your voice and your word because you have been the voice of this program for a very, very long time. Do we have to freak out a bit, Chris? [CH chuckles] That the writing is… Are you still writing?

CH: I'm going to still be doing as much of the writing as I can. I just want to say, though. I kind of figure that the show, I mean, it's been on for 50… I guess this is 51 years now. And As It Happens has always had this particular, slightly irreverent take. I just feel like that's an important… that's been my role as I see it. So I am the keeper of the voice rather than the voice.

JD: Well, now you are both [laughing].

CH: Now I am literally the voice, which is a strange transition. I knew how to write for Barbara, and I flatter myself that I knew how to write for you.

JD: Yes.

CH: I don't know how to write for this new guy. He's a little green [JD chuckles]. He's unpredictable. Sometimes, weird stuff comes out of his mouth.

JD: Can I hear you throw in the Good evening, I'm Chris Howden?

CH: I'll give it a shot. I've been going…

JD: Have you been practicing? Have you been trying out some different ones?

CH: Yeah. Good evening. And then I dispensed with that. That felt a little too tight. Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens. Now, I know that you used to leave a pause.

JD: It really infuriated people. [CH laughs] That's not why I did it.

CH: No, I know. I know.

JD: I just could never remember what came next.

CH: No, it's difficult. I mean, it's you know it's written on the page in front of you, but I know you like to go off book.

JD: You've got this, man. You've got this.

CH: Thank you.

JD: Chris Howden, I love you, man.

CH: I love you too, Jeff.

JD: Okay buddy. Take care.

CH: You too.

CO: That, of course, was Jeff Douglas — my former co-host, and the current host of CBC Halifax's Mainstreet — admitting that he deliberately left infuriating pregnant pauses in the scripts.

CH: [laughing] I knew it!

CO: Finally came clean. And he was just having a little love-in with my new co-host, Chris Howden.

CH: It was lovely to talk to Jeff. And peculiar to talk to him in that circumstance. He, unlike you, did not try to trip me up.

CO: [Both laugh] Won’t be the last time.

CH: No, true.

CO: Wa ha ha.

[Music: Indie rock]

Part three: Early trans recordings, Rock Dreams course

The Farwell panel

CH: Lulu Wang's movie, "The Farewell", is all about a secret — a huge secret. So if you don't want a spoiler, I suggest you tune out for a few minutes. Now, okay, keeping that spoiler from one person in particular has been a lot trickier for Ms. Wang. Her autobiographical film is about how her family held a fake wedding to say goodbye to her terminally ill grandmother — without telling her that she had stage 4 lung cancer. That was in 2013. But her grandmother didn't die as soon as the family feared. So making a movie about the lie was something of a feat. Lulu Wang talked about the dilemma of making "The Farewell" during Golden Globes panel yesterday, which posted online by Slate. Here is part of what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

LULU WANG: Once we started making the film, I told my family. And they said, well, you've made films before, and they've gone nowhere. [audience laughs] So let's not worry about it, you know? Are they paying you to write the script? Great. Get paid. Pay your rent. That's good enough. And then we got into Sundance. They’re like, well, it's a big festival, but it's an American festival, so it's never going to leave the country. And your grandma doesn't go on the Internet. She doesn't read English, so it's fine. You know, and so every step of the way it got bigger and bigger, until we were on the cover of New York Times, which gets translated into Chinese. And as you said, even when we were shooting, my grandmother came to set because I had initially wanted to not shoot in her hometown in order to continue to keep the secret from her. But when we went scouting and we went to you know I took my producers to have dinner at her house, she said why would you shoot in another city? You know, if you're gonna shoot a family story, and she didn't know it was about her, but she knew it was about our family, you, of course, have to honour our hometown. And also, you're gonna be here for several months. I want to see you. That makes the most sense. Why would you go elsewhere? And I didn't have a good answer. So we ended up shooting in her neighbourhood. And she came to set all the time. And I had to tell everyone please don't tell my grandmother. [audience laughs] And the first day of set, we were shooting a block from her house, like she would come downstairs in her wheelchair and come to set. So I had to confiscate all the shirts and try to get all the cars to take off the signs. Yeah, and so I mean even now, she is still around, and the movie is coming out in China.

HOST: And she still doesn't know?

LW: Oh gosh, this is a complicated question. She actually just found out, and it's very traumatic that it's coming out in China, and the title of the movie is “Don't Tell Her” in Chinese. [audience laughing] And her friend saw a review of it, and was so proud — one of her longest friends — and sent it to her. And the reviews said the film is based on Lulu Wang's real life. Her grandmother was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer 2013. Her family through a fake wedding for her cousin from Japan, and her grandmother didn't know. And then she made a movie about it. So it went through the entire history of our family, and my grandma read it and. And she said to her sister, who plays herself in the movie. She said, you know, I just thought that you were really daft because you went and shot a movie, you went to the premiere in New York, and you come back and you can't tell me anything about it. You can't tell me what it's about. You can't tell me the title. But look, it says in the newspaper it's called “Don't Tell Her.” And that's why you didn't tell me because I am the her of the “Don't Tell Her.” But we haven't talked about it, so I'll see what happens when I see her.

CH: That was Lulu Wang, writer and director of “The Farewell,” speaking yesterday in Los Angeles. The film's star, Awkwafina, won last night, becoming the first Asian-American woman to win a Golden Globe for best actress in a musical or comedy film.

[Music: Ambient]

Early trans recordings

Guest: Brian Ferree

CH: One day last spring, Brian Ferree was doing what an archivist often does: sifting through boxes. More specifically, he was going through boxes squirrelled away in the basement of New York's Lesbian Herstory Archives. And it was there that he found one labelled STAR. He knew what the acronym stood for: "Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries". The group was founded by legendary trans activists Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson in the seventies. What he didn't yet know was that the box contained the earliest known recording of the pair — who were just 19 and 25 years old. Here's what Marsha P. Johnson sounded like then.

SOUNDCLIP

MARSHA P. JOHNSON: I started out with makeup in 1963, 1964. And in 1965, I was coming out more, and I was still wearing makeup, but I was still going to jail just for wearing makeup. In 1969, I started wearing female attire full-time. Usually, I wear a shot dress every day of the week.

CH: That's trans-rights activist, Marsha P. Johnson — speaking on a recording from 1970 — the year after the Stonewall rebellion. Brian Ferree is the archivist who unearthed that recording, and shared it on the podcast "Making Gay History". We reached Mr. Ferree in New York City.

CO: Brian, what's it like for you to hear Marsha P. Johnson in that clip, talking about going to jail for wearing makeup back in the ‘60s?

BRIAN FERREE: Well, it's awful to hear. But I think what makes Marsha such an amazing icon is her ability to deliver the worst news, while still sounding jovial in a way. She really had this joie de vive that she kept up throughout her life.

CO: And we can't see her, but I'm sure she's looking glamorous at the same time? [chuckling]

BF: And smiling while she's talking, absolutely.

CO: But talking about some really, really difficult things. And how did you come across this tape?

BF: Well, I had been doing research for “Making Gay History” — the podcast. And we were looking for archival material. We were looking for recordings that were made in 1969, 1970, around the time of the Stonewall rebellion. And this particular one I found in the Lesbian Herstory Archives.

CO: We should just remind people that Stonewall rebellion was in Greenwich Village, late June-July of 1969. It was a reaction on the part of LGBT people to police repression, repression. And it was actually the beginning of the gay rights movement, wasn't it?

BF: It was. There were a lot of different sectors organizing around the country. And I think the Stonewall rebellion is really reflective of how people were starting to react together against repression.

CO: So when you discover it's a tape reel — the stuff many of us in radio, if we’re old enough, remember making our interviews on. And the label is, “Interview With Members of STAR.” When you saw that, what was your first reaction?

BF: Oh, I was so excited. I was so excited. And I had no idea what was on the tape. And I knew I wouldn't be able to listen to it right then. There's a certain kind of tape that when it's that old, and it’s magnetic tape. When you play, it erases. And I was so worried that it was one of those, that I didn't dare do it by myself. It turned out it was mylar tape, so that wouldn't have been the case. But the good folks a “Making Gay History,” and the Lesbian Herstory Archives let me take it to a professional studio, where they rewound the tape for me. And while they were doing so, each and every original edit — because this is not a continuous tape — busted apart as they rewound it. Which scared me at the time, but apparently is very normal, and they would just take the pieces of mylar tape and glue them back together. And then they were nice enough to let me sit in, and I got to listen to it for the first time with everyone else in the studio as he recorded it.

CO: So this conversation that's on the tape was possibly happening in the headquarters of STAR — the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. And it's in one of those apartments in lower Manhattan, and lots of noises in the background. All that considered, just fascinating testimonies. We heard earlier from Marsha P. Johnson. Now here is a clip of Sylvia Rivera. She is one of the other really major figures of this time. So let's have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

SYLVIA RIVERA: I was at a demonstration when the gay people charged the United States with genocide. This personal paragraph or more you know short of saying when we — the street people and transvestites — appeared on the scene. So right away, he throws everything on me. And he starts off, Mr. Ray Rivera. Mr. Rivera likes to be called by his transvestite friends that Sylvia. This is very oppressive. Everyone calls me Sylvia. I've had this name for nine years — straight or gay. Even on my job, the women that I used to work with, called me Sylvia. And like, it's not just transvestites that call me Sylvia, or treat me as she. People respect you. This is respect. Like, I'm Marsha was written up in the same article, a black male transvestite. Why does he have to say… Just say transvestite. Not he, if he doesn't want to put down she. Because if he’s going to write, he shouldn't classify people. Just say transvestite. The transvestite brigade showed up or whatever. But he did very wrong to classify her.

CO: All right, that was Sylvia Rivera in that one. We heard Marsha P. Johnson in the introduction. And two absolutely key figures of the time. So what is it that stands out for you listening to Sylvia Rivera talking about being misgendered by a reporter back in the ‘60s?

BF: You know, it wasn't just the reporter, of course, it was the larger gay movement as well. And they were not ready for these larger gender politics. They were still a lot of them, a lot of these organizations, they were still married to respectability. And they wanted to gain gay rights by showing that gay people were respectable. And so they excluded those people that didn't fit that rubric. And what I think is also really lovely about listening to Sylvia in those days is her progression from using drag queen to using transvestite. And then later, she'll use transgender. But she really infuses all of these words with the same liberation politics, the same energy. And the entire time, they had such conflict with the organizations that were becoming more established, and they kind of stand in for the underdog of the underdogs.

CO: So what do you think is so important about finding this tape 50 years later?

BF: Well, I don't know if the tape gives us any information that we didn't already know about Marsha and Sylvia. But I do think that people who are interested in them, who see them as icons, and people to look up to, they're hungry for more information about them. And it's really exciting to get to listen to them at such a young age speak for themselves, and not just read something that's been written about them. Also, you know, I do love the fact that I came across this tape and that I found it. But, you know, I'm not an archaeologist. I'm not out there digging in a hillside. This tape was made available to me because of decades of people keeping it safe. And I thank the Lesbian Herstory Archives so much for doing that work.

CO: All right. And we thank you.

BF: Thank you. Take care.

CH: Brian Ferree is an archivist with the podcast “Making Gay History.” We reached him in New York City. To hear those early recordings of Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson yourself, visit our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Instrumental]

FN emojis

CH: Jaalen Edenshaw is known for his traditional art — mainly masks, canoes and totem poles in British Columbia. But now, the artist is taking inspiration from his Haida culture to design emojis. On a basic level, Mr. Edenshaw's Haida emojis look similar to the typical yellow faces we see in emojis, with a smile or a frown. But these designs have big, bold eyes and feature expressions often depicted on totem poles and masks carved by Haida artists. The emojis also feature Haida words. Mr. Edenshaw spoke today to CBC's “Daybreak North” about what inspired him to design Haida emojis.

SOUNDCLIP

JAALEN EDENSHAW: I think just watching my kids, and like I don't think I've actually ever used an emoji myself up until I made these. But, you know, my kids would get hold of my phone and text their mom or their aunties. And it just felt like I'd be good to be able to bring some of our culture in terms into sort of of the digital culture that is around us.

CAROLINA DE RYK: What sort of difference do you think it will make to have some of those phrases and expressions used in the emoji form?

JE: You know, I don't think that the emojis in themselves are going to make a major change within Haida culture or anything. But I think it's just keeping the terminologies and bringing the stories in and you know making them accessible. You know, I think it's just a number of projects you know that you know myself and other people work on to keep sort of the language and stories and art used and relevant to today.

CDR: And your kids, do they have a favourite that they're using?

JE: Yeah, what’s your favourite?

KID: Joop.

JE: [laugh] My son's favourite is joop, and it's sort of an expression when you poke someone.

CDR: And you said that there are three forms here at this point — including Chilcott, which is the traditional weaving, correct?

JE: Yeah. So in Haida art, you'll sort of see you know faces you know whether it's in the weaving or in the larger designs, you'll see little faces sort of popping up you know within the design — the larger design. And I think also, you asked earlier about sort of inspiration.

CDR: Mm hmm.

JE: And I think you know I sorta I'd seen a few little guys that look pretty much like the emojis of today in some of the ancient pieces. And I think that might have been part of the spark as well.

CH: That was Haida artist Jaalen Edenshaw, speaking to Daybreak North host Carolina de Ryk. Mr. Edenshaw has designed Haida emojis, which are available free to download.

[Music: Ambient]

Rock Dreams course

Guest: Andrew Loog Oldham

CH: He's credited with giving The Rolling Stones their "bad boy" rock and roll image — and ultimately, making the band one of the biggest acts in the world. Now, Andrew Loog Oldham is bringing his music industry experience to the classroom. This month, the former Rolling Stones manager will teach a 13-week full-credit course at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops. It's called "Rock Dreams A History, 1954 to 1984". And it's described as a "life lessons course using music as the medium." Mr. Oldham, who now calls Canada home, has lived in British Columbia for years. We reached him at home in South Surrey.

CO: Andrew, what lesson do you think you can teach to your students about being in the music business?

ANDREW LOOG OLDHAM: I'm more interested in the lessons they can teach me. The foundation is the music business. One of the problems I found with my own children is that they were never taught anything that they could apply. They were given information to keep in their brain and do an exam on, and then they were like thrones into the world. I'm talking about children being either in English schools or American schools in Columbia. I'm not talking about Canada.

CO: Well, yes, I'm sure it applies here. So then what are those lessons? Those are hard knocks life lessons you're talking about. At the end of this course, at the end of this 13-week, full-credit course at Kamloops’ Thompson River university, what do you what do you hope the students walk away with?

ALO: Oh, I hope that I've found a few killers. Who can kill without attracting too much bad karma or luggage to their lives.

CO: What are you talking about? What do you mean by killers?

ALO: um, succeeders.

CO: [laughing] Okay, I was not sure for a moment there.

ALO: Well, no, I mean put it this way. In a rock and roll group, if there's not one or two killers, it doesn't matter how good they are musically, it's not gonna happen.

CO: What do you mean? Describe a bit more what do you mean by being a killer?

ALO: Well, Mick Jagger, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Neil Young. I'm not really sure if there's a killer in Duran Duran.

CO: [chuckles] But what does it do?

ALO: It pushes them forward in a way that a manager or producer doesn't really do. When we got to the end of the ‘60s, we left a period where the managers spoke for everything. By the time we reached and entered into all the new forms of media, the act had to be able to basically handle themselves and move themselves forward.

CO: Because you're very conscious of the egos of musicians. I mean, just go back to what you're saying about being a killer. I mean, that obviously Mick Jagger was a very talented musician.

ALO: No he’s not. No he’s not.

CO: All right. So how would you describe Mick Jagger then, the man that you managed in that band?

ALO: Well, I mean, he's not a musician technically — which is an advantage for being Mick Jagger. I mean, a musician is interesting in that they always have the fact that they are a musician to fall back on. A lead singer is a totally different weapon. It's a different animal.

CO: What set him apart from others, besides his performance? Do you think that he had something else, some other quality that did that?

ALO: After a while, remember, he is the man who that he didn't envisage singing “Satisfaction” when he was 45. Eventually, after the first bits of luck, it's them the choices you make to keep it going. Now, I don't know because I haven't spoken to him for a long time. But stuff is put in front of you, and you keep having to guess right. And he just seems to be guessing right.

CO: Okay. I just want to get a little history here because you saw the Stones playing the Crawdaddy Club way back in the ‘60s.

ALO: I think it was Possession Hotel.

CO: Okay, when you first saw them playing in a club in the ‘60s, what did what was it about the Stones you thought could actually be something else, something better?

ALO: Well, this wave came over me — a surreal religious sexual experience came over me. And whereas I had been very happy up to that point being a press agent for different British acts, and ten days with Bob Dylan and things like that. But anyway, everything that I'd done, or dreamt of, or thought I could do, or experience up until that age, I knew that it was a preparation for this wave that had come over me. And that I had to work with these people, and get connected with them.

CO: Okay, it sounds like a religious experience you had?

ALO: Yeah, but without you know anybody claiming to own the church.

CO: [laughing] Well, I mean, but the nature of this wave of music at the time of that era was sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

ALO: No it wasn't. You see, if you were younger than we are, the concertina of time you know has you think that that's how it was. It went in increments, and we would look at the world of music then and realize as far as the jazz world went that there were two kinds of musicians: those who did smack and those who didn't. And we went oh, that's terrible [chuckle]. And then five years later, you know, after I'd gone the Rolling Stones are recording using all of those drugs.

CO: Were you part of that culture? Were you part of that druggy, alcohol culture at the time?

ALO: Yeah, I'm an a shopaholic, an alcoholic, and a drug addict.

CO: Do you think that was essential to the time?

ALO: I don’t know if it was essentialist. It's kind of like, which car do you happen to be driving? I mean, if you look at all the different people, I mean, I spent time with Tom Petty about seven months before he died, and he'd come to his last and final form of addiction very late in life — same with Prince. You know, I mean, if you take away the talent with Prince, and the hair, and the high heels, and songs, and everything else, he was just another middle-aged businessman who succumbed to drugs, wasn’t he?

CO: I want to just go back to your cause you're going to be teaching at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, so what are you going to tell them about all this? I mean, what do you think young folks today sitting in your classroom, do they even care about old rockers and old stories like these?

ALO: I have no idea. I'm going to find out, dear. I mean, I left school 60 years ago. And now, my mother would be very pleased that I'm going back to complete my education because this is very good in that normally one is only invites you to go into a war stories to these people. But here's something that they've got to pass exams, they've got to do due diligence, they've got to do stuff. So there will be a result to it, apart from a little applause.

CO: What do you think the questions on the exam will be?

ALO: I don't know. I'm going to find out. [both chuckle] I go up to Kamloops on Tuesday. I used to say to my business partners as we drove around British Columbia about it and say say hey, Gary, leave me on that corner without a laptop and a telephone and come back and pick me up in three months. And let's see how I did.

CO: After we finish this, we're going to probably play a song, which be appropriate. What would you suggest from the Stones?

ALO: Oh, “Let’s Spend The Night Together.

CO: [laughing] We'll leave you there Andrew. Good luck with your course.

ALO: Thank you very much indeed.

CH: Andrew Loog Oldham is a former manager and producer for The Rolling Stones. We reached him in South Surrey, B.C.

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January 6, 2019 episode transcript

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