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The Current Transcript for December 27, 2019

Host: Michelle Shephard

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

My house is bugged for like a majority of my life. You know, 10 years. I was followed around. I mean, I think the FBI even declassified some photos of my dad's graduation. You can see me and my brother with our blurred out faces in the background as little kids.

MICHELLE SHEPHARD: This is Alexander Vavilov recalling the shock of learning his parents are Russian spies. We talked to him today about his epic legal battle to be recognized as a Canadian. And then:

SOUNDCLIP

I heard a huge shout because people had raced to barrier and the crowd spilled over the bridge into West Berlin and I joined them.

MS: Recalling the hopes 30 years ago when the Berlin Wall fell, the dreams realized and ruined after reunification became a reality. That story in an hour. But we begin with the founding father of the Internet and his thoughts about the future of our digital world. I'm Michelle Shephard, sitting in for Laura Lynch. This is The Current.

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Cerf on the internet in 2030

Guest: Vint Cerif

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VOICE 1: There it is. Violence at NBC GE COM. I mean--

VOICE 2: Alison should know, what do you say of that, Allison?

VOICE 1: What is internet anyway?

VOICE 3: The Internet is that massive computer network, the one that's becoming really big now.

VOICE 1: What do you mean, that's big? How does one-- what do you write to it, like, mail?

VOICE 2: No, a lot of people use it and communicate, I guess I can communicate with NBC writers and producers. Alison, can you explain what Internet is?

MS: That was Bryant Gumbel, Katie Couric and the rest of NBC's Today Show crew trying to figure out this crazy new thing called the Internet. Back in 1994. Well, the worldwide web has become omnipresent in our lives since then. And our dependence on the Internet in the past decade has prompted an increasingly urgent debate over the consequences of just how connected we are. So as the decade comes to a close, we invited one of the people who started it all to imagine what the digital world will look like in 2030. Vint Cerf is known as one of the fathers of the Internet. He invented protocols that allow two computers to communicate. He's now a senior executive at Google with a title that's classic silicon Valley: vice president and chief Internet evangelist. Cerf joins me from Washington. Hi, Vint. Thanks for being here.

VINT CERIF: Bounjour Michelle. Comment sa va?

MS: Bien, merci. We're going to do this in English. When you think about the world in 2030, are you envisioning something more like The Jetsons or The Terminator?

VINT CERIF: So, you know, I have so much to tell you about what I think is going to happen in the next 10 years, I almost don't know where to start. But let me point out that 2030 is only 10 years from now and it sounds like science fiction. Indeed, it is just a decade away. I can give you a list of things I believe are going to be common place. Would that be a good place to start?

MS: Sure. Give us some of maybe some predictions that people wouldn't assume would be there.

VINT CERIF: Let's talk about this. First thing that's going to be quite obvious is, is a term that many of your listeners will have heard before; Internet of Things. These are simply programmable devices that are connected to the Internet. It's easy to predict that there would be billions of those in operation. There already are certainly on the order of many hundreds of millions especially, you know, even billions if you include all the mobile phones that are out there that are connected to the net. So that's one thing that will happen. Lots of appliances, in the home, in the office, in the car, things you carry around on your person. You can even imagine medical devices that are sort of plugged into you that are monitoring your health, but also reporting that through the Internet to the doctor or to other monitoring services. So that would be a very common thing. And of course, we should be a little worried about all the software that goes into those devices, especially if the software has bugs, because those bugs may be exploited in the form of vulnerabilities. So for people like me and people like me, that's a big headache that we have to overcome. So that's one thing.

MS: Maybe I'll just jump in there briefly. I'm sorry. I know that the list is long, but that is going to be one of the issues that I think people are most concerned about. This idea of the bugs and the hacking and we'll get to that. But just also our loss of privacy. And I know I covered national security for years. This is a huge issue for people. And it's worrying today. But in 2030, do you expect we'll have any privacy at all?

MS: So, Michelle, I'm having some trouble hearing you, we need to get the technician in to hike the gain on my headset, if I understood you correctly, you are saying that you worried about the Russians and others who are exploiting access to the Internet for bad purposes. Is that it? Did I hear that correct?

MS: Generally about the loss of privacy. The more wired we become. Are you okay hearing me here?

VINT CERIF: We still need to get your technician in and I don't see him coming in the door.

MS: Okay, we're going to work out that right now.

VINT CERIF: Here he is. Actually, we're getting real time feedback here.

MS: It feels slightly ironic that we're talking about being wired and we're having technical issues here.

VINT CERIF: Okay. Yes. This is good. Thank you. I appreciate it. This is real time engineering.

MS: It is. It is. Thank you. Can you hear me okay now?

VINT CERIF: Yes, I can.

MS: Okay, great. What I was asking is about our loss of privacy. That's a huge concern for a lot of people.

VINT CERIF: A huge issue.

MS: Do you expect to, I mean, people are worried about that now with good reason. Do you expect in 2030 will have any privacy at all?

VINT CERIF: Well, first of all, I think the threat is quite real. We see it today. And I think unless it is recognized as a serious problem and one which has to be addressed or that there will be consequences for those who fail to protect their privacy, that will still be a problem. So I'm hoping we'll see even legislation that will guide companies to protect people's privacy. But we also need to train people to do a better job of protecting themselves. So that's not just a question of usernames and passwords, but things like two factor authentication which uses encryption as a way of strongly authenticating so someone else can't get into your accounts. It's very important. So there are lots of angles here that have to be addressed in order to protect privacy and confidentiality as well as security. I can tell you that's top, top of the list for many of us these days.

MS: Well, absolutely. And sometimes, however, though, it seems so, so daunting and overwhelming to have that. And I wonder, we have a friend that we love to make fun of because he has a 2011 BlackBerry. But I'm starting to see some people, a trend, going towards this is too much. We can't protect ourselves. Do you actually predict that maybe there will be some sort of trend where people go back to flip phones?

VINT CERIF: I don't. I think that what will happen and what is happening is that there is an increasing awareness that this problem has to be dealt with and that there are threats have consequences, business consequences, legal consequences that will put pressure on engineers, for example, to improve the way in which the technology works and companies to improve the way in which they treat and protect users privacy information. So I don't think that I'm anticipating a gigantic collapse of any kind. I think that more like an increase in pressure to make this work better.

MS: And in Toronto, you likely know that we've had the example of the sidewalk labs, which has been controversial in the smart city that Google sister company is hoping to build on Toronto's waterfront. Can you paint us a picture of what that would be like to live in a place like that?

VINT CERIF: I'm sorry, ask that question one more time.

MS: I'm just raising the issue of sidewalk labs in Toronto. I mean, look, that's been in the news a lot here and it's been quite controversial. Can you tell us what that would, envision, what would be like to live in a place like that?

VINT CERIF: Absolutely. Well, I think that the intent - I can't speak for sidewalk labs, but I think the intent was quite to try to create an environment in which the city actually understood what was going on and was trying to adapt to make the city cooperate and to benefit people. It may very well be that in their zeal to achieve that objective, that either they were collecting more information than others were comfortable with or perhaps the data collection wasn't properly described. But it's easy to imagine a city that has a model of itself, and it's collecting information to match the measured behaviour of the city with what it thinks is optimal. And it tries to adapt whether that's providing power or guiding traffic or, you know, other kinds of city services in order to make life easy for people. The other thing, of course, is responding to failures of various kinds, whether it's power outages or streets that become jammed or natural catastrophes and things like that. I think that the intent here was to try to design and build systems that were well engineered and adaptive and to the extent that there was discomfort with regard to privacy. That's an important signal that has to be factoring into whatever the design ultimately turns out to be.

MS: And I'm just going to bring up a clip here from Shoshanna Zuboff, a Harvard Business School professor and the author of Surveillance Capitalism has warned about the risks of this type of data economy.

SOUNDCLIP

We're shifting gears into yet another phase of capitalism that depends upon - a - the social relations of surveillance. I see you. You can't see me. But - b - surveillance of what? Of the intimate experience of your life. You buy a mattress that I write about in the book and it's recording the audio signals in your bedroom. And if you don't sign the privacy policy to that mattress - A mattress has a privacy policy. A television is a privacy policy. A dishwasher has a privacy policy. And you try to buy one of these things that's not Internet enabled. And it costs more.

MS: So Shoshanna Zuboff has called for the mining and sale of this kind of personal predictive data to be banned. What do you think of that idea, Vint?

VINT CERIF: Well, I wonder whether banning is the right action. Let's think about the positive side with some of that information might be extremely important for identifying medical problems, for example. So the better tactic, I think, is to try to set up guidelines and guardrails so that the data is properly used. I'd much rather see transparency in policy to match rather than simply banning outright the capture of that data. Let's turn it to good purposes.

MS: Now, I've been putting you on the spot and warning about issues with this when this kind of information gets out of hand. And to be fair, you've been credited with talking openly about the ethics of data collection and privacy and worrying about it. But not everyone would share your values. Google's obviously at the mercy of its leadership, whomever that may be in the future, or perhaps one day it could be nationalized by authoritarian regime or fall victim to hacking. So I guess my question is, can it ever be safe for one organization to hold so much information about individuals?

VINT CERIF: Well, that's an interesting question. Generally speaking, when you aggregate large amounts of information that becomes very attractive as a place to attack in order to gather that data and make use of it, perhaps for nefarious purposes. So centralization of data collection has risk. The other side of that coin is that with enough data, you can analyze and predict and discover potential problems and hazards that people might experience or help plan their travel or help plan their day or even to take on tasks that people would otherwise have to do themselves. Because you know enough about the person's calendar, you know enough about their choices of transportation in order to assist. So you can say, you know, plan, you know, plan the following day for me, I have to be in the office in such and such a time. I have to get to the airport. And the system can go and manage all of that because it has enough information to do it in an automatic way. So I think our real objective here is not so much just to preVint these things from happening, but rather to set up guidelines that are enforceable and to insist on transparency, whether it's algorithmic transparency or transparency of collection and use of data, so that people are clear about what it is that they're getting and what they're given.

MS: So I'm just going to take it out of the individual for a moment to the larger picture. And I going to bring up another clip here. And this is Jim Balsillie. He's the former co CEO of Research in Motion. And he's been vocal about how platforms such as Google and Facebook actually undermine democracy. Here he is on The Current a few months ago.

SOUNDCLIP

Really, these social media companies can create win-loss conditions for political parties. And, you know, they can simply change their algorithms. They can avail certain information of one political party or another. They can change the pricing. So they're too powerful by themselves in our electoral process and they're too powerful with the political parties who need that tool. And it's not only unhealthy for society, it's very unhealthy for democracy. So it's a toxic situation right now. You know, voters have to step up and say, we're going to make electoral decisions based on who's giving us confidence that they're going to deal with us.

MS: So if there's this fear now that platforms have the power to create win-loss conditions for political parties, let's go back to trying to look ahead to 2030. What do you think that means for a democracy by then?

VINT CERIF: Well, I think that we are already challenged in 2020, let alone 2030, with regard to our democratic principles. The most important one of which is that people need good factual data in order to make up their minds about what they want to do from the electoral process. And if the data is poor or distorted or biased, it makes it much harder to make sensible and good decisions. Now, that problem has been with us before. It's not as if this is a brand new problem. People [unintelligible] always been truthful on the campaign trail, but it's getting more and more difficult to discern what's true and what isn't. Especially if you start looking at things like deep fakes, the ability to make it appear as if someone has said something that they didn't actually say, either with video or audio or both, to say nothing of the kind of introduction that we saw from the Russians during our 2016 election here in the U.S. and presumably in later years as well, that the distorted and misrepresented the positions that people had and exacerbated tensions between various factions in the political spectrum. I think that all we can say is that in another 10 years, we will have experienced a decade of those kinds of practices and we will have to learn how to cope with them and how to defend against them.

MS: You mentioned earlier that you believe government has some role in this. And Jim Balsillie says that, you know, we need to recognize this as voters. Do you think that lawmakers have enough understanding of the Internet to effectively regulate it if the will is there?

VINT CERIF: Well, if on the presumption that - I will speak for the United States as opposed to Canada, since I don't know Canadian legislators as well - I will say that during the various hearings that have taken place over the past five years or so, that the legislators have not shown a very deep understanding of how this technology works. And that worries me, because making laws about technology that you don't understand may not necessarily produce the results that you want, though. I've lived in this town in Washington, D.C. now for 43 years, going on 44 and honestly and has spent a fair amount of my time on the Hill with legislators and with members of the executive branch doing the best they can to help people understand even just cartoon models of how this stuff works. So that when you start reasoning about it and wondering how to cope with some of the abuses, that you have a good basis for that. I think I still have a long ways to go.

MS: And I guess the other body that could be regulating this is is the police forces. But last week, we had a major security breach at a medical testing company here in Canada. And there was some fear that this is not something that the police forces either are equipped to deal with, this threat of cyber crime. Do you imagine people perhaps moving away from putting valuable or sensitive information online, or do you have confidence that the lawmakers are able to tackle this?

VINT CERIF: Well, first of all, I think that it be very hard for us to escape the potential value of processing a lot of this data, thinking that - in medical terms, for example - would be the ability to detect early symptoms, for example, of serious diseases has such great potential that you one wouldn't want to pass that up. The same could be true for figuring out how to design new drugs that deal with super germs that are not easily dealt with today's antibiotic. So I wouldn't want to give any of that up if I could help it. The important part here is recognizing the nature of the problem and then taking steps to solve those problems. And I am frankly confident that we have the technical capability to do that. It may require some serious willpower to introduce legislation that reinforces the use of the technology in order to make people more protected.

MS: We've been sort of imagining more the Terminator scenario. I haven't given you a chance to say what you're most excited about. Maybe something more along the lines of the Jetsons. What do you see as something exciting coming in the next 10 years?

VINT CERIF: Well, if I could just rattle through a list of things that are happening. Huge numbers of satellites going into orbit, providing access to the Internet on a global scale, including the North and South Pole. More cable undersea, more 5G, you know, communications capability and the telephony world, more Wi-Fi, lots of artificial intelligence and machine learning, automatic translation, automated reality, self-driving cars, all of this. These are easily discoverable and to be expected within the decade we're talking about. I can tell you confidently that the interplanetary extension of the Internet will be well into operation by 2030. It's already started operation in its infancy in 2004 when the two rovers landed on Mars, spirit and Opportunity Rovers. Mars missions will be nearly underway by 2030 and the moon bases will already have been established something in mid-decade 2024-2025. We'll also discover that we have to keep learning for our entire lives as opposed to going to school for 20 or 25 years and then working and retiring because we lived to 100 years. And in order to have a life, a career of 70 years or something, you have to keep learning. So there will be all kinds of changes, I think, in the way in which we program our own lives because of the length of life that we'll experience.

MS: Well, Vint, thank you so much for joining us today. And perhaps we'll come back in 10 years and we'll see how much of this comes true.

MS: That will be fun.

VINT CERIF: Cerif is Google's vice president and chief Internet evangelist. He is the co-creator of the TCP IP protocols that form the basic architecture of the Internet. He joined us from Washington, D.C.. The CBC News is next. Then:

SOUNDCLIP

The FBI exactly came bursting through the doors and arrest my parents. I mean, it was a huge shock, which, you know, at first I didn't even take seriously. I kind of was laughing about it. I thought it was one big joke or misunderstanding.

The true cloak and dagger story of the children of Russian spies who thought to call Canada home. I'm Michelle Shephard, and you're listening to The Current.

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Toronto-born son of Russian spies becomes a Canadian citizen

Guest: Alexander Vavilov

MS: Hi, I'm Michelle Shephard, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

MS: Still to come, busting the Berlin Wall. Memories from a divided city and world. But first, coming to Canada: spies, lies and a deep family secret.

SOUNDCLIP

ALEX VAVILOV: My relationship with my parents is all right. Of course, it was always, difficult at the very beginning, going through all this kind of identity crisis and troubles. But I think we managed to kind of get past all this and we have a good relationship. And they've been understanding of my fight for my citizenship. I mean, they also enjoyed their time in Canada.

MS: Alexander Vavilov was born in Toronto. Normally, that would make him a Canadian, except his parents were not your typical mom and dad. They were Russian spies. His story is full of twists and turns involving years of legal drama that ended last week when the Supreme Court of Canada officially confirmed his Canadian citizenship. Alex Vavilov joins me from our Toronto studio. Hi. Thanks for being here.

ALEX VAVILOV: Hi. Nice to be here.

MS: Let's start with how you're feeling right now. You've had about a week to be in Canada, in Toronto, knowing that no one can take your passport.

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes, I mean, it's been very different than previously when I've been back. Just because I have the certainty, that's kind of it's all over. It's a great relief to be done with this, you know, 10 years of fighting to keep my citizenship and, you know, the struggles I've gone through. So it's a great relief. I'm really happy to be back. And it's nice to be relaxed once again.

MS: Well take us back to when this all started. So it's 2010. And at that point, you're living with your parents and your older brother, Tim, in Boston.

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes.

MS: What happened that day when the FBI came crashing in?

ALEX VAVILOV: So it was actually my brother's 20th birthday where the FBI came bursting through the doors and arrested my parents. I mean, it was a huge shock, which, you know, at first I didn't even take seriously. I kind of was laughing about it. I thought it was one big joke or misunderstanding. You know, I thought they had the wrong house. I thought they confused whatever my parents' consulting work was with espionage. I had no idea what was going on. And it took quite a while for the seriousness of all of it to settle in.

MS: I think I heard you in the press conference that we heard off the top say that you actually thought they had the wrong house, too, the first time.

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes. I mean, mistakes happen. I've heard of all sorts of crazy stories of the FBI, you know, being misled with different things. So I just thought this was another one of these moments. And I remember thinking, oh, there's my university essay already going to be written from this, but turned out to be a lot more serious, unfortunately.

MS: How old were you at that time?

ALEX VAVILOV: So I had just turned 16 and had just come back from being on exchange abroad. And so we were celebrating my brother's birthday. And I was quite young still at the time.

MS: And you were born in Canada. But how long did you live here before your parents took you to the U.S.?

ALEX VAVILOV: So first, we were in Canada, where my brother was born four years earlier for myself. Then I was born here in the university hospital. And after another year, my dad sold his diaper delivery business and we moved to France for his studies. After four years of being in Paris, we then moved to the U.S., following again my dad's studies at Harvard and then I remained in the U.S. for 10 years.

MS: And then when did it really sink in? So you have the FBI come into your house. When did it really sink in -- "wow, my parents are Russian spies?"

ALEX VAVILOV: So the first week when we had the media like in front of our door, we had all this attention. I had to go to the courtroom, kind of I didn't let myself believe it was true. Because I knew that we would probably be facing years long court case. And I kind of needed to believe my parents were innocent. And I really didn't let myself even think about this. I was just focussed on getting them a lawyer, doing what we needed with my brother and it was very difficult. It only really sank in when I was on the plane, finally going to Moscow and kind of not knowing if anybody would meet us there and having just this sheer uncertainty. It's only at that point that I quite realized that, yeah, my parents probably are Russian spies.

MS: Were you deported with them or were they still in custody?

ALEX VAVILOV: No they were still in custody. So my brother and I left a little bit earlier kind of trying to escape this media attention. We had already a prearranged trip, like plans with my family where we were going to France. And so we had with some help of some friends, managed to kind of book a ticket to get out of the U.S. And so even when we arrived in Moscow, we had to meet like a grandmother I had never recognized or I met family members I didn't know I had. And it was kind of a huge, surreal experience.

MS: I was just going to use that word: Surreal. That's overused, but I can't even imagine what that'll be like, stepping in a country that, supposedly, your parents are from, you don't speak the language... Well, describe for me what was it like in those first few months when you're in Moscow.

ALEX VAVILOV: I mean, the first few weeks were, like you said, kind of surreal and traumatizing, you kind of put yourself at a distance to what's happening and you don't feel like it's really you that's living these things, you know, like you're just watching a movie. Only later when it sinks in that you're going to be there and you don't know anything about the future. Like, I had no idea how much money a spy has. You know where I will be going to school. What will happen to my citizenship. I. It was all kind of a big question mark, and it took a long time to sort of settle things out and figure it all out. But it was difficult.

MS: What was the relationship like with your parents? The clip we heard off the top, you address that in the press conference that it had been tricky, to say the least. Can you tell me a little bit about what the conversations were like with them over the years and how that relationships evolved?

ALEX VAVILOV: I mean, the first time I saw them back in Moscow we stayed up all night kind of discussing all sorts of things, noticeably like a lot of questions about their childhood and their upbringing. My parents kind of never really talked much about their childhood. Now, I finally understood why. But it was a long process to understand their motivations, the side of them that I hadn't known growing up. Of course, they were still the same people. You know, your character doesn't magically change overnight based on your citizenship or anything. But it was yes, it was a long process to really start to understand each other with all this new kind of knowledge.

MS: And was there at any point anger or tension there?

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes. I mean, there were some difficult points specifically relating to like, you know, their choices, having such a profound impact on my life and forcing me into many difficult situations. I know my parents also suffered seeing what had happened to me and my brother, their parents as well, you know, didn't get to see them for like 30 years. A lot of kind of difficulties all around. So they have some sort of guilt but at the same time, they understand why they'd made the choices they did and kind of the sacrifices. Eventually we've come to kind of an understanding. I think you can eventually forgive when you understand the reasons behind people's motivations. And I think that's a process that took a long time. I now can understand more or less where they're from. Even if I don't always agree.

MS: And at any point where you kind of wondering why did you have kids? I understand why you're doing this, you're doing this for your country. This is ultimately what they told you. But why why'd you bring us into it?

ALEX VAVILOV: I mean, it's kind of unfair as well to ask people why they have children. I mean, everybody, I think, has an innate desire to have kids. The question is, you get a certain level of comfort. I mean, they were 30 years living, you know, as Canadians, as Americans and they never thought, well, they always had the back of the mind that there's a possibility they arrested. But after so many years, you kind of get comfortable. You want to have your own life and family. So, yeah, they probably maybe shouldn't have had children given kind of the risk that it entailed from me and my brother. But, you know, it's hard to stop people from doing that.

MS: And what's it been like for you in the time that you've been fighting this legal, this epic legal battle? Have you been able to travel and work?

ALEX VAVILOV: And so, I mean, I started the battle almost immediately after I came to Russia. So I tried to renew my passport. I went through know many different procedures, including a name change - which people still struggle to pronounce, myself included when I first heard the name - but it's been a long process and kind of difficult. And then I faced some issues travelling partially because it's a very politicized situation. And I feel like a lot of countries have taken it out on me as well, which has been very difficult, seeing like I'm for nothing and all this. You know, my brother and I are innocent and we were just trying to live normal lives. So to be kind of caught in the crosshairs of all this political intrigue, it's been very difficult. But I'm glad that the legal case is over. I hope it will make my future a little bit easier because it hasn't been so easy up until now.

MS: And when you first brought the court challenge, the initial court said, no, we're not going to give them citizenship. And then the court of appeals reverse that. So at that point, when you actually get your passport back. Did you have difficulty travelling at that time?

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes. I mean, for a long time, exactly the refusal to kind of issue me a passport meant I only could travel on Russian documents, which meant having to apply for a lot of visas and given kind of my parents well-known background, that led to a lot of problems travelling. So kind of the Canadian government's refusal to issue me passport has led to a lot of difficulties.

MS: So even though the Court of Appeal had said that you were a citizen and that you should have a passport, you still got--

ALEX VAVILOV: They still delayed it. I mean, I had a citizen certificate. For a while, and, you know, at one point they issued a passport and didn't release it to me for years. So it was all very difficult.

MS: And why was it so important to have Canadian citizenship?

ALEX VAVILOV: I mean, being Canadian was kind of a corner- I mean, is a cornerstone of my life. You know, I grew up being born in Canada, identifying myself as a Canadian. And even when I was living in the U.S. or France, I felt Canadian. I would tell my classmates who went on a trip to Canada like places to go. I remember even my brother won a competition at the Canadian consulate in Boston drawing a comic about Canadian values. And it is crazy to think that then after all this lifetime of being Canadian, the government tried to take this away from me. So it's been difficult. But yes. So I really do feel Canadian. I'm happy to be back. I'm happy. Kind of not to have this doubts lingering about anymore.

MS: Did you become an American citizen as well when you were living there?

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes. So my parents having lived to 10 years in the U.S., towards the end, naturalized and obtained American citizenship. As a result, I had also American citizenship. However, you know, a few weeks after finally arriving in Russia, we got a letter saying that my citizenship was void because my parents obtained it fraudulently, which was fine. I mean, I understand that decision. It's very different than my Canadian citizenship, which not only is kind of a cornerstone of my identity, but also is kind of through my birth in Canada and my continued connection. So it's something I really felt I had to fight for.

MS: So why was it that the Canadian government revoked your citizenship? Like, what was the legal reasoning?

ALEX VAVILOV: I mean, of course, I'm not a lawyer. But my understanding, fighting all this is that there's a provision in the Canadian law that says that if you are the child of a diplomat, you do not obtain Canadian citizenship, even if you're born in the country. And this provision is mostly there because if you have the rights of a Canadian citizen, you should also have the duties that come with it. And if you have diplomatic immunity, you don't have the right to be prosecuted for criminal actions, et cetera. So the exception is very narrow and it's kind of a common exception in many countries around the world. But so the government tried to say that's my parent's role as kind of undercover Russian spies constituted being representatives officially in Canada, which from the very beginning we were arguing was not the case. And I'm very happy to see that the Supreme Court decision ultimately vindicated us and that this provision is much more narrow in focus and cannot be applied to somebody like me, who grew up in Canada and who was born here.

MS: And it was a unanimous ruling it was a 9-0.

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes. That was a huge relief also to see just how much the court kind of sided with us and followed our rationale. So I'm very relieved and happy about the decision. On the other hand, you know, I'm not sure I should have had to go through nine years of fighting for something that I was entitled to from my birth. And so it's been difficult, but I am happy with the final results.

MS: And what's that been like, the legal process over the last decade essentially?

ALEX VAVILOV: A lot of stress, you know, uncertainty at every step. Even when I came for the hearing and I've been coming in and out of Canada, you always have these doubts lingering over your head. And it's it. It prohibits you from, you know, figuring out your future. You know, now I'd like to have some roots here in Canada, spend more time, look for work. But you can't really do any of this until you're certain about your status. I mean, it's a problem a lot of people face in life. But in this case, you know, it was a higher stakes, let's say.

MS: And would you go and try and pursue your American citizenship now as well?

ALEX VAVILOV: No. I mean, I don't feel that I have a need to pursue it. I don't think I have a claim to pursue it. And I mean, I remember even when I got American citizenship, I was upset. I was telling my parents why do I need this American citizenship? I'm happy being Canadian. I don't see how it's going to change anything. You know, I didn't get it and I didn't really want it. But I eventually I understood it was useful for some for living in the U.S., et cetera. But, yes. So I don't have any intentions to try to pursue any sort of American citizenship or anything like this.

MS: And I can't talk to you and not bring up the Americans, because the Emmy nominated TV show, which have to say I was a fan of and I didn't realize at first that it was basically based on your story.

ALEX VAVILOV: Yeah. I mean, a lot of people seem to now be surprised that it's based in reality. And I was surprised how quickly from the story they launched this whole TV show.

MS: Do you remember how quickly after was it?

ALEX VAVILOV: I don't know, maybe a year or two years or something. This I mean, they had something like six seasons. But yes, the TV show, I've watched it. It's been very weird to watch because you understand how much of it's based on your own life experiences. But at the same time, they don't really have direct insight into what the reality of it was. So it's been kind of a weird experience watching a TV show based in parts of your family's experiences. And you know, though I am sad they didn't invite me for a cameo or anything like this or, you know, they probably made some money off the show. It's always difficult to understand other people profiting from your misery.

MS: I think it's done quite well. Yes. Did your parents watch it, too?

ALEX VAVILOV: Yes. I mean, my parents have watched it on and off. You know, it's they had a hard time just sitting and watching all the way through. But as I understand, they enjoyed it and they kind of liked that they didn't completely demonize people in their role and I think it allowed the general public to understand a bit better the reasons people do things like my parents did, and the sense of patriotism and their desire to kind of make the world a bit better place, and kind of how they struggle with also identity, you know, having assumed Canadian or American - in the case of the show - identities, but yet still having the strong patriotic values from where they came.

MS: While you were going through this, at any point, did it make you a little paranoid? I imagine you'd always be looking over your shoulder wondering how you're being monitored. Has it changed you in that way?

ALEX VAVILOV: I mean, yes and no. So it was, of course, a huge shock after all the news came out that my house was bugged for like majority of my life. 10 years, I was followed around. I mean, I think the FBI even declassified some photos of my dad's graduation. You can see me and my brother with our blurred out faces in the background as little kids. I mean, there's only a certain extent, though, you can be paranoid. Eventually you have to kind of overcome and live your life. But it is difficult understanding that, you know, as much as regular people are also kind of tracked on the Internet, knowing that there's probably more active things. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if I've been followed around. And it is also infuriating because I'm for nothing and all this. As an innocent person, I just want to live my life. And yet I'm caught up in all of this sort of espionage world. It's very weird and difficult. And since then, I've been trying to find kind of the right work for me, which hasn't been easy because of all these troubles I've faced and the reputation that constantly follows me around. But, yes, I've bounced around between the Middle East and Asia, and I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I can settle down.

MS: So what are your plans now? What do you hope to do?

ALEX VAVILOV: So right now, I have to say I don't have many plans. I just want to finally relax a little bit. You know, take some time off. Enjoy the decision and the ruling and kind of start figuring out what I want to do with my future. I'm trying to see exactly how I can build some future in Canada. I think me and my brother wants to do kind of a cross-country trip and explore again our homeland. And there would be, you know, past that I don't really have any immediate plans.

MS: And what have you done in the time between? Have you gone back to school? Have you been working? Have you been living?

ALEX VAVILOV: I me I've been living. Yes, that's true. But I've been going back and forth. I originally wanted to come to Canada to study my bachelors. And that was one of the most painful parts of my experience is that's when I realized I wouldn't get my passport quickly enough to come study in Canada, I decided to apply for a visa, which I obtained. And then just two days before I was supposed to fly to Canada, I already paid my tuition, I was ready in touch with my future roommate, the governments called me in to the embassy and after kind of interrogating me, just cancelled my visa in front of my face. And that was kind of a huge blow and really difficult. And it forced me into a gap year where I had to figure out what to do. And then I also had other problems obtaining visas for other countries. Eventually I studied my bachelor's and my master's in Europe.

MS: Do you find that people do recognize you now?

ALEX VAVILOV: I had someone at my work who, when I first arrived, they didn't know the backstory. They said they recognized me and they kept asking, oh, had we met at some eVint or some conference? And it's only a few weeks later that they realized they'd seen me in the news and this kind of a common occurrence. It's not easy to bring up such a big story when I first meet people. And so it always I have to draw the line between being honest and kind of not dumping such a big thing on people.

MS: And what's the reaction when you do tell them or you talk about it?

ALEX VAVILOV: It's split. I mean, some people don't really understand the significance of it. Some people make a huge deal out of it. I mean, it's all over the place. So it's hard to say that there's one universal kind of recognition. But then people tend to focus around the issues of family and the emotions I faced and, you know, all this.

MS: And just going back to the question of whether you got paranoid or worried and you find out that you've been surveilled your whole life, you've been watched your whole life. Do you anticipate that those problems are going to continue for you or you'll have issues with travel?

ALEX VAVILOV: Well, I hope that this ruling can kind of remind everybody how innocent and for nothing I am. And it's a little bit of vindication that all these issues have been tied to a purely legal matter. But I'm also not so naive to understand that it's all going to stop overnight. I anticipate that I will continue to have problems. And I'm just hoping to slowly chip away at these issues and eventually kind of be able to lead a normal life and not be caught in the middle of all these political kind of intrigues.

MS: Well, thank you very much for coming in. Really appreciate it.

ALEX VAVILOV: Pleasure to be here. Be back in Canada.

MS: Alexander Vavilov's parents were Russian spies. He recently won a Supreme Court of Canada battle for his Canadian citizenship. He was in our Toronto studio.

[Music]

MS: You're listening to The Current on CBC Radio One. I'm Michelle Shephard. I want to take a moment to give you a hint about something coming up next week on The Current. First, listen to this.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: In 2001, I was a teacher. I was in Vancouver. I attended an end of year gala where the theme was Arabian Nights. I dressed up in Aladdin costume and put makeup on. I shouldn't have done- I should have known better, but I didn't. And I'm really sorry.

MS: That, of course, was Justin Trudeau during the heat of the federal election campaign, trying to explain why he had worn Brown and blackface years earlier. It was one of several head turning, jaw dropping moments in Canadian politics during this past year, as was this one.

SOUNDCLIP

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: I experienced a consistent and sustained effort by many people within the government to seek to politically interfere in the exercise of prosecutorial discretion. In my role as the attorney general of Canada in an inappropriate effort to secure a deferred prosecution agreement with SNC Lavalin.

MS: That's Jody Wilson-Raybould as the SNC level scandal unfolded in the lead up to October's vote. So here's my question what do both politicians have in common with these iconic and unforgettable moments in sports?

SOUNDCLIP

[Cheers]

Finally, basketball. To the fans here in Toronto and across Canada, over 50 percent of this nation watched these finals. Three and a half million people showed up here in Toronto for the championship parade. Thank you for your support.

MS: You'll have to wait until Monday's edition of The Current for the answer. Coming up in our next half hour, a wall falls in Berlin, but new barriers go up in the East German mind. I'm Michelle Shephard and you're listening to The Current.

Back To Top »

The legacy of the Berlin Wall

Guests: Susanna Schaedlich, Vera Lengsfeld

MS: Hi, I'm Michelle Shephard and this is The Current on CBC Radio One and Sirius XM. November marked 30 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Cheers and honks].

MS: And After the East German government accidentally announced the borders would be opened, people gathered by the thousands at the barrier that had come to symbolize the separation of the two Germanys for decades. They sang. They cheered. They attacked the wall with pickaxes and hammers. If it was a stunning moment in the West, it was seismic for the people who grew up in East Germany. And those reverberations continue today, especially in the eastern part of the country, where an elections earlier this year, an extreme, far right, anti-immigrant party with neo-Nazi ties increased its popular vote. This is the story of two women; both raised in East Berlin and how decades after the fall of that infamous wall they believe there is still an invisible barrier. Here's the CBC is Kristin Nelson with her documentary The Wall in the Head. It was first broadcast in November, just before the 30th anniversary.

SOUNDCLIP

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: They are parts of the city where you actually still feel East. It's East German and it's like you cross the border and there are different people. They look different. They have different clothing.

KRISTIN NELSON: Susanna Schaedlich is a writer who was born in the former East Germany. We're standing together outside Friedrichstrasse Station in central Berlin. These days, the public square in front of the train station is surrounded by shoe stores and cafes. But like so many places in Berlin, history runs deep here.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: People still say east and West.

KRISTIN NELSON: Schaedlich spent her teens and 20s in West Germany. I'll get to that story soon.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: So we are in the west in front of the so-called Trananpalast, which was the border crossing location for people who wanted to cross from west to the east for visit, of course by S-bahn.

KRISTIN NELSON: The building looks fairly innocuous with a bit of a 1960s mad man aesthetic. It's two stories high and painted baby blue and the entrance is embedded in a wall of curved windows. During the Cold War the building was a tiny hole in the Iron Curtain.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: I came through this building when we lived in the West because all of the rest of the family, Grandma, everybody was, of course, in East Berlin.

KRISTIN NELSON: And the way she describes it. It was an unnerving experience.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: There were two doors. One door, the door would close behind you. Then there's the guy who controlled you, and the other door wouldn't open until they were finished with you. Sometimes they would pick up the phone, and you never knew whether you would be able to go visit your family and friends or whether they would send you back or whether they actually would pick you up and put you into a cell.

KRISTIN NELSON: Born in 1965, just four years after the Berlin Wall was erected, the wall cast a shadow over much of her early life in East Berlin, even though it was mostly invisible.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: Actually, East Berliners never really got really close. You couldn't touch it. There was also still this area where they had the towers to watch. There was no man's land. The only time I saw the wall is when we went up the Fernsehturm once as a family. In East Berlin there's this big tower with the restaurant, people all the way up. And then I saw the wall.

KRISTIN NELSON: Schaedlich's perception of the city changed that day. Before then, her mental map of Berlin reflected the official maps of East Germany, the German Democratic Republic, or GDR.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: My father had a map of Berlin and the West German part was white. And when I was little, I was always wow. You know, we're living in East Berlin and around it is only Snow White. So when we went up to the tower, I saw, uh-oh, it isn't snow. There's actually also houses and is city. But the East Germans didn't map it.

KRISTIN NELSON: Nor did they map the Stasi prisons. Susanne Schaedlich knew from an early age that her family wasn't typical. Her father was a writer who wrote critically about the state and her mother worked in publishing. Both of them were political and so were their friends. Schaedlich recalls being visited by the East German police, the Stasi, on nights that her parents were out.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: Just to scare us, me and my sister. And they would ring the bell and I would go to the to the window, looked down, and there they were, two men. Classic, also ridiculous, if you think about it, in the trench coat, you know, like in a bad James Bond movie. But that's a scary feeling. They didn't do much more than just ring the bell in the night and then go away.

KRISTIN NELSON: Well, Susanne Schaedlich was growing up. Another woman in a different neighbourhood of East Berlin was also living in the shadow cast by the Berlin Wall.

VERA LENGSFELD: My name is Vera Lengsfeld. I was born in 1952 in East Germany. The so-called German Democratic Republic into a family of supporters of socialism. My parents have been both party members, very active party members.

KRISTIN NELSON: Her mother was a schoolmaster, her father an officer in the army.

VERA LENGSFELD: And so I was brought up and educated like a real socialist.

KRISTIN NELSON: But it was a love story that changed the way she perceived East Germany.

VERA LENGSFELD: When I was 17 I met the most, nicest and beautiful boy in East Berlin.

KRISTIN NELSON: The boy was from Yugoslavia. His father, a diplomat in East Germany who had fought against the Nazi regime, but East German officers didn't approve of the way communism was practiced in Yugoslavia.

VERA LENGSFELD: And so my Yugoslav lover was regarded a Western enemy. And one day we were stopped by police. They took me to the police station.

KRISTIN NELSON: Eventually they realized that Lengfeld's father was a Stasi officer.

VERA LENGSFELD: The police drove me home. It was past midnight. They threw my father out of his bed. Yes. And they told my father that they would not inform my father's superiors about this this time. But if they ever saw me again with this western element, they would inform the superiors of my father. And so, of course, I was forbidden to meet my lover. Of course, I met him secretly, but this was the end of my love to the East German regime. And slowly I became an adversary of East German communist state.

KRISTIN NELSON: Today, Lengsfeld still lives in the neighbourhood where her activism began. Tourists come here to see where the Berlin Wall once stood and where it first began to crumble.

[Music]

KRISTIN NELSON: In the early 80s, Lengsfeld started a group called the Peace Circle. The state had granted citizens some freedom to organize, in part to appease international calls for reform. It was a time when the threat of nuclear war was top of mind.

VERA LENGSFELD: I was a mother of three then, with small children. At the beginning of the 80s, the NATO deployed atomic weapons along the mushroom and border, and then the Soviet Union started to deploy Soviet atomic weapons along the inner German border. And it was not a very good feeling to live in an area which was regarded as the future atomic battlefield.

KRISTIN NELSON: The group distributed pamphlets and inspired dozens of other so-called peace groups to form throughout the GDR.

VERA LENGSFELD: And we kept telling the authorities that we are no opposition, of course, because opposition was forbidden by law. We told the authorities said we are people who were concerned about the fate of socialism and who wanted to improve socialism.

LL: The Stasi was ubiquitous in the GDR. There were 90,000 workers on the payroll, plus thousands more official and occasional informants. Estimates vary widely, but anywhere from two to 10 percent of the population was involved in surveillance.

VERA LENGSFELD: Of course, we were well aware that we had spies in all groups. I was a trained philosopher. I was working at the Academy of Science and they threw me out due to my activities in our peace circle. And this was a very dangerous situation because there was also law in East Germany saying if a person had no job for longer than six weeks, this person could be thrown into prison.

KRISTIN NELSON: And if you lost your job for political reasons, it was very difficult to find new work. But Vera Lengsfeld had prepared for that possibility.

VERA LENGSFELD: I was well aware that such a thing could happen.

KRISTIN NELSON: She had acquired 120 beehives.

VERA LENGSFELD: And so I had a job; my new life as a beekeeper.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: My father wasn't allowed to publish in East Germany.

KRISTIN NELSON: Six years earlier. Susanne Schaeldlich's father was on the verge of losing his own academic job in East Berlin.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: He decided that he would publish his book in West Germany.

KRISTIN NELSON: The manuscript had been smuggled across the border by a West German journalist. It was a book of short stories about life in East Germany called Approximation. He lost all his work and then Schaedlich's mother received a visit from the Stasi.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: And they asked her to distance herself from her husband, our father, and also have her children in mind.

KRISTIN NELSON: That's when her parents realized that it was no longer safe to stay. Of course, leaving was forbidden. The Berlin Wall had been erected to keep people from doing just that. But her father's case became a political one. His exiled writer friends, including the famous Gunter Grass, advocated on his behalf. So did a Key West German diplomat. They'd been denied twice before, but this time, Susanne Schaedlich's parents were told that they had permission to leave.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: It was a Monday that they told me that we would leave East Germany five days later. So I had like five days to leave my whole life behind. It was tough, but it was also adVinturous. Everybody wanted to see the West.

KRISTIN NELSON: The details of that winter day in 1977 when they left the GDR are still etched in her mind.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: I remember that it was cold December day and we were driving, driving, driving, driving. It was endless. Then we came to the crossing of the border. My father had to step out and leave and we actually thought he would never come back. There was still that scare in the last minute, and then they finally let us go and suddenly the whole border point lit like in the football stadium. It was like flashing white.

KRISTIN NELSON: And soon after, they would be driving into West Germany.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: And everybody in the car was just quiet. .Dead silence because I think we only realised then the door just closed behind us.

KRISTIN NELSON: Their life would have to begin anew. But for now, there was just the black road in front of them. It was 1977 when the Schaedlich family settled in Hamburg in West Germany. And yet the East German state was still part of their lives.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: They had their informants all over the place. They left science like a key on the kitchen table. They entered apartments actually just to scare people, to let them know we're there. We watch you.

KRISTIN NELSON: Life in exile was difficult for Shea Lake's parents, especially her dad, who suffered from a nervous breakdown after they left the GDR. After a couple years in Hamburg, they moved back to Berlin. But this time on the other side, the west side of the wall, it was closer to her old home. But even so, Susanne Schaedlich never felt settled. In 1987, when she was in her early 20s, she moved to Los Angeles.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: When I was far, far away, I could forget it all. Even '89, I was like, okay, the wall fell, you know, I saw it on TV.

KRISTIN NELSON: Vera Lengsfeld's experience of the wall coming down was very different. Schaedlich had left West Berlin two years before the wall fell. Lengsfeld had remained on the front lines of the divide. Her peace movement kept working away in church basements, but in the late 80s they decided to be bolder in their activism.

VERA LENGSFELD: We could not call for a demonstration. This was forbidden by law. So we decided to join a state rally with our own banners. On my banners, stood the first sentence of Article 27 of the East German Constitution: Every citizen of East Germany has a right to utter its opinion freely. I thought they might arrest me or they will arrest me short time, 48 hours this time. I was wrong.

KRISTIN NELSON: They did arrest her and 104 others. In the span of two hours, Lengsfeld was put on trial and accused of hooliganism, which could have meant eight years in prison. By this time, her father had been retired from the Stasi for a couple of years. When she was on trial, he publicly took her side.

VERA LENGSFELD: Because he no longer believed in the system. He said if the system calls my daughter a criminal, I call the system a criminal system.

KRISTIN NELSON: Eventually, the charges against lengths felt were downgraded, but she was still sentenced to six months in jail. Meanwhile, political pressure was growing instead of keeping all the activists in prison. The government expelled them and so she went to the United Kingdom. But as soon as it was possible, she made plans to return to the GDR. She had no idea that she was returning on the eve of history.

VERA LENGSFELD: By coincidence, I returned to East Germany in the morning of the 9th of November when the wall still stood.

KRISTIN NELSON: November 9th, 1989.

[Crowds cheering]

VERA LENGSFELD: Nobody expected that to come down in the evening.

KRISTIN NELSON: The way events unfolded that night was as dramatic as it was unusual. There had been large protests in East Berlin for weeks. The government was under pressure to give citizens greater freedom of movement.

VERA LENGSFELD: And at the evening of the 9th of November, a politburo member, Gunter Schabosdki, called for an international press conference here in Berlin to introduce the SeVinth Amendment of the new travel law.

GUNTER SCHABOWSKI: [German speech]

VERA LENGSFELD: And then there was a question by an Italian journalist: When will this law come into effect? Schabowski, he was not accustomed to answer spontaneous questions.

GUNTER SCHABOWSKI: [German speech].

VERA LENGSFELD: 'I think immediately'. And as soon as he said immediately, thousands of people rose from their couches and went to the nearest border checkpoint.

NEWSCASTER: In total disbelief, Berliners began gathering on both sides of the wall at the famous checkpoint [unintelligible] and other crossing.

VERA LENGSFELD: When I came to the [unintelligible] bridge, already thousands of people stood before the barrier to West Berlin.

NEWSCASTER: From ABC, this is World News Tonight with Peter Jennings.

VERA LENGSFELD: And all the border guards stood with their back to the wall of the barracks. They were covered with bows, with flowers at their button holes. They had bottles in their hands; wine, beer. Schnapps. Champagne. Yes.

NEWSCASTER: Something as you can see, almost a party.

VERA LENGSFELD: I heard a huge shout because people had raised the barrier and the crowd spilled over the bridge into West Berlin. And I joined them.

NEWSCASTER: Just a short while ago, astonishing news from East Germany where the East German authorities have said that, in essence, that the Berlin Wall doesn't mean anything anymore.

KRISTIN NELSON: Lengsfeld describes the moment the crowd happened upon what normally would have been a quiet bus station. A coach had just pulled in.

VERA LENGSFELD: And the driver was very surprised. He stepped out of his bus and said, where do you guys are coming from? And we told him from East Berlin. The Wall came down and he said, Ohh! Is this so?? Is this so please come into my bus. Come into my bus. And he started to give us a spontaneous sightseeing tour through West Berlin. And you might imagine that this was one of the happiest moments of my life.

KRISTIN NELSON: Three years after the fall of the wall, Suzanne Schaedlich was still living in Los Angeles. She'd gone to America to escape the pain of her divided childhood. But when the Stasi files were opened a couple of years after Germany's reunification, her family's past came crashing into the present.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: We found that our uncle, my father's brother, was a Stasi informant, which for us was a total shock.

KRISTIN NELSON: For 15 years. Susanna Schaedlich, least beloved uncle, had spied on the whole family.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: He was very close to all of us.

KRISTIN NELSON: Karlheinz Schaedlich spied on others, too, but informing on his brother was her uncle's most intimate betrayal. The Stasi files also reveal that he was involved in a plot to repatriate her father back to East Berlin against his will in 1978.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: For the East, German officials probably would have been great to have a writer that once left back didn't work.

KRISTIN NELSON: The files also revealed that Susanne Schaedlich uncle attempted to lure her back to East Germany.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: So I ended up with the Stasi. I was interviewed by them and they had asked me. They actually wanted to recruit me. No, but I never connected it to my uncle. We always ask yourself, why did he do it? Why did he do it?

KRISTIN NELSON: Vera Lengsfeld also had to confront hard truths about her family after the Stasi files were opened. She refuses to discuss it publicly anymore. But when she read her own files, she discovered that her second husband had been a Stasi informant and that he had reported on her during their marriage. They divorced in 1992 after the information came to light.

KRISTIN NELSON: In 1999, Susanne Schaedlich believe that it was time to go back to Berlin. She started writing a book about what her uncle had done to her family.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: It became really, really public in 2006 when press reports came out that he also spied on Gunter Grass. It was a big name that he spied upon, saw the whole press talked.

KRISTIN NELSON: About a year later, in 2007, her uncle killed himself. He was in his 80s and sick.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: I guess the ghost of him is still there. Sometimes we talk about him. The pain doesn't go completely. You mistrust everyone. It's until today. Now. It's kind of like a joke. Like when the telephone crackles, you know, oh, somebody is listening. You know, you have to can really educate yourself or remind yourself that not everybody is a spy.

KRISTIN NELSON: On our walk, Susanne Schaedlich talks to me about the wall that still exists between East and West Berlin, an invisible one.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: Die mauer im kopf, the wall in the head.

KRISTIN NELSON: And she believes that the divisions go well beyond the superficial, saying the effects of the repressive East German regime linger.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: Of course, it does something to a society. It's a society of traitors towards your neighbours. And it's a society of people who are being traited upon. You have to construct a system like that in order to control people.

KRISTIN NELSON: Schaedlich believes that today there are still those who miss that control and order. And she's not alone in connecting eastern Germany's communist totalitarian past with the politics of the present.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: I mean, freedom can be, it's work. You know, you have to deal with it somehow. You have to make decisions. And before the state controlled, everything was controlled. But it's also safe.

KRISTIN NELSON: Germany's far right anti-immigration party, the alternative for Germany or a AFD, performs best in the east.

SUSANNE SCHAEDLICH: There are writers, poets, activists, all former East Germans, even people who went to prison in East Germany, who now turn into these right-wing nationalist neue rechte. They call them the new right wing people. I'm more scared by these people than the farmer in Saxonia, who votes for the RFD. Of course, it was hard for these Germans to come to terms with a system, which was totally different from the system they had grown up in.

KRISTIN NELSON: In the years after the wall came down, Vera Lengsfeld worked on a commission dedicated to the reunification of West and East Germany. She joined the Green Party and was elected after German reunification.

VERA LENGSFELD: But East Germany came like phoenix out of the ash.

KRISTIN NELSON: But while Vera Lengsfeld is proud of the progress that has been made, she's very aware of the sharp economic, cultural and political differences that remain between Germany's two halves. 30 after the Berlin Wall came down. Some surveys suggest that those cleavages are getting worse and not better. More than a third of Eastern Germans tell pollsters they consider themselves second class citizens.

VERA LENGSFELD: The political situation in Germany is very difficult again, and it became most difficult after the decision of Chancellor Merkel to open the border for mass migration of mostly young men from violent societies, from homophobic societies where women are regarded as inferior. This makes lots of problems.

KRISTIN NELSON: It's a common refrain in Germany today, but hard to fathom coming from a woman who used to work closely with Angela Merkel. Both Merkel and Lengsfeld grew up in the GDR and they were both there the night the wall came down. But.

VERA LENGSFELD: Merkel Germany is developing towards another kind of dictatorship as we had in East Germany

KRISTIN NELSON: Vera Lengsfeld's politics have evolved significantly over the years, though she says she's still a member of Merkel's CDU.

VERA LENGSFELD: This is, again, the situation that people cannot speak freely because we have certain persons who try to tell people what they should say and what they should say not. We had a politician, a social Democrat. He said, well, I'm not against the free speech of people, but they should do it at home, at their couches. Oh, same situation at home at my couch in Germany. I could say what I wanted.

STIN NELSON: Lengsfeld has no illusions about life in a dictatorship. But she says younger Germans don't necessarily appreciate how easily liberties can be taken away.

VERA LENGSFELD: They are not very much aware that you have to fight for freedom every day. Even in democracies.

KRISTIN NELSON: Susanna Schaedlich and Vera Lengsfeld both the politics of the past influence in Germany's present, their family histories and intimate lives were both directly touched by the same repressive state. And yet they see things in radically different ways today. While Schaedlich's early life in the shadow of the wall left her on guard against intolerance and opposed to borders and separation links, Lengsfeld's experiences have made her vigilant about perceived threats to her beloved country and willing to put up firmer borders to preserve the society she put her life on the line to defend.

MS: We have been listening to the documentary The Wall in the Head. It was produced by the CBS Kristin Nelson and The Current's documentary editor, Joan Weber. It was first aired in November. And that's our program for today. Stay tuned to CBC Radio One for Q. I'm Michelle Shephard. Laura Lynch returns next week. Thanks for listening to The Current.

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Friday December 27, 2019 Full Text Transcript

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