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The AIH Transcript for December 18, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Karen Gordon

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

CO: Book of revelations The Jesuits in Canada are the first Catholic order in the country to agree to release the names of priests credibly accused of sexual abuse.

KG: A broken system breaks people. While world leaders gather in Geneva to discuss rebooting how to deal with refugees -- a psychologist describes the crushing emotional toll on children in a camp in Greece.

CO: Not exactly hell to pay. Construction giant SNC-Lavalin will pay more than a quarter billion dollars after pleading guilty to fraud -- we will ask whether we should be fine with that fine.

KG: Making ourselves youthful. As part of a trip back in time to the days when, As It Happens was young -- we'll hear about the people who were there when its voice changed.

CO: Bird's eye view. At first a Nova Scotia man who is staring at a turkey vulture was certain it had been killed in a storm -- but he changed his mind in and because of the blink of an eye.

KG: And why haven't I read "Finnegans Wake" aloud? Well, it's hard to say. But our guest isn't just reciting all the tongue twisting language in that difficult book by James Joyce -- he's memorizing it. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that sees if he can answer our multiple Joyce questions.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Jesuits of Canada to release names of priests 'credibly accused' of sexually abusing minors

Jesuit abuse names

Guest: Erik Oland

KG: One branch of the Catholic Church in Canada says it's prepared to name names. The Jesuits say they'll publish the names of priests who have been accused of sexual abuse over the last 60 years. That's a response to demands from abuse survivors and to an investigation in Pennsylvania, which revealed that more than 300 priests had been accused of abuse. Father Erik Oland is leading the Canadian effort. He's the provincial superior of the Jesuits in Canada. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Father Oland it is no secret that priests in your order have been accused of sexual abuse. Why are you now agreeing to release their names?

ERIK OLAND: I think the best way that I could answer that question is to start things off would be that what we're doing now, releasing the names or doing an internal audit within view of eventually releasing the names within the next year or so, is that it's all part of an evolving response that includes both learning as we go and really grounding our way of doing this, our way of proceeding, in our own mission, which is really to preach peace and reconciliation amongst people.

CO: Right. I'm not sure that really answered it. Just again, why are you now agreeing to release the names and identities of these people?

EO: Releasing or preparing to release names now, at this point in the whole process, it would be our desire to not just respond with financial compensations, but really to move towards true reconciliation.

CO: How will you decide the names of people, the identities you will release? Your agreeing to release the names of those who are, quote, "credibly accused of abuse?"

EO: We've just started within the last six weeks an internal audits of our files to see what we have in our files in terms of what exactly was the root of these accusations that we are terming credible. But to review the files that we have by outside auditors and so that they can bring us back the results in the form of a report that will give us the data that we need. And out of that data, we will also use criteria that has been used by some of our Jesuit sister provinces in the US to decide, okay well which of these names do we feel compelled to release?

CO: And so in the in the United States, you just mentioned that, well the investigation in Pennsylvania that revealed that at least 300 priests had been accused of abuse. Do you have any sense of what kinds of numbers we're talking about in Canada?

EO: Really, since we've begun to look back on our files that date back to the late 1950s were coming up with around 15 names -- most of whom are deceased.

CO: Right. But now, just given the numbers we have heard in the United States when these credibly accused lists have come up into the hundreds. Does it not seem that 15 is a rather low number?

EO: Perhaps it does, on the surface. It's possible that our audit will uncover more. And Jesuits have been always really faithful keepers of files. So we literally have boxes and rooms and rooms of files. And even going back to the 1950, just the way we saved letters, the way we save correspondence, notes, et cetera, et cetera. It means there are a lot of files.

CO: But when you consider the influence that Jesuit missions have had in Canada over those years, when you consider the residential schools, when you consider the education facilities that Jesuits were part of -- would you not suspect that there might be more than just over a dozen?

EO: Well, I would like to say from my point of view as a Jesuit, I've been a Jesuit for 25 years, this whole abuse question was a serious part of my own discernment to even join the order -- knowing what I already knew 25 years ago. I think that across the board we have been more diligent both in the way we recruit members and don't move people forward who we don't feel have the vocation to serve as a Jesuit. Maybe that's a bit pie in the sky to someone who doesn't -- who is just listening to me for the first time. But that has been my experience and my experience of being a Jesuit makes me believe that in sum, we are a pretty healthy bunch.

CO: In your interview with The Globe and Mail, you reveal that six Jesuits who are currently within the order are working in, quote, "restricted capacity" because of allegations. What does it mean that they're in restricted capacity?

EO: It means that they would be confined to working in-house, let's call it in-house. So, for example, I'm talking to you from our provincial office in Montreal. And it's a self-contained administrative workplace. There's no pastoral -- that word pastoral is key. So there's no pastoral or outreach ministry to individuals.

CO: But father, given the pain and suffering of the victims -- why are they being allowed to work at all? Why not to kick them out of the order?

EO: If I received that directive from our superior general in Rome, I would do it tomorrow. But that is not the way that our order has decided to proceed.

CO: Over these years since this has become public knowledge about the sexual abuse of priests. What we've also learned is that there were enablers. There are those within the church hierarchy who turned a blind eye, who moved offending priests to other jurisdictions where they often continue their abuse. When is the church going to reveal that network? When are we going to know the names of those enablers within the ranks?

EO: We know them.

CO: When are you going to reveal them?

EO: Well I mean, you're probably aware of it. And it was simultaneous to the publication of my interview with The Globe and Mail. But it just so happened, we didn't know it was going to happen. The Pope just announced that the Vatican conceal of not talking about these things is no longer operational. And so right from the very top, Pope Francis, this signal has been given that these enablers are going to be named. We know a lot. We know who the enablers were. We know who the bishops and others and religious superiors who rather than taking someone out of ministry -- we're going back to the 1950s and maybe into the early 60s now, really -- rather than doing that, they kind of shunted them around from place to place.

CO: But just finish your sentence. You said, "we know the enablers" "we know who they are." Are we going to know the enablers and know who they are?

EO: I would say we're moving in that direction.

CO: Father Oland I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

EO: Thanks Carol.

KG: Father Erik Oland is the provincial superior of the Jesuits in Canada. We reached him in Montreal. For more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Impeachment vote

Guest: Brenda Wineapple

KG: Just shy of two years and 11 months into his presidency, Donald Trump has been impeached. Members of the Democratic-led House of Representatives voted in favor of impeachment tonight, which sets the stage for trial in the Senate next year, where the US president has a Republican majority on his side. For months now, committees have been investigating whether the president abused his power in his dealings with Ukraine. Republicans and Democrats remain mostly divided on their verdict. But Brenda Wineapple is sure that the president violated his oath of office. She's the co-author of a letter published this week that was signed by hundreds of historians. She also wrote the book "The Impeachers: The Trial of Andrew Johnson and the Dream of a Just Nation." We reached Brenda Wineapple in New York City.

CO: Ms. Wineapple how do you feel as you watch all of this today?

BRENDA WINEAPPLE: Well, I feel stunned and sobered and proud to a certain extent of my country.

CO: Because there's been so much: political battling, so much fire and brimstone, leading up to this moment -- is it different today?

BW: Well, it it is and it isn't. It certainly is different from the Clinton impeachment and certainly from Nixon's threatened impeachment because he wasn't impeached. But from my perspective, which is more historical, it's very similar in uncanny ways to the impeachment of Andrew Johnson in 1868.

CO: Why? Why do you go back that far to see something -- a parallel to what is happening with Donald Trump today?

BW: Well, there are several reasons. One is because of the nature of Donald Trump as a president who has been called a demagog and so was Andrew Johnson. He loves his rallies and his base. So did Andrew Johnson. Although I'm not sure Andrew Johnson had a base, as we call it. But he certainly did like rallies. And because both men really had a very antagonistic view of Congress and they really pitted the executive branch against the legislative branch in our country.

CO: At the time when Andrew Johnson was being impeached, there was a time when the fate of your nation was in hand, wasn't it? This is just after the civil war -- where the country would go, slavery, and the rights of African-Americans and so much else dealing with the kind of racism and the white supremacy that Johnson represented. Is there is much at stake in this impeachment as there was then?

BW: Well, there you know, someone was asking me earlier today that very same question, but answered question before I could. I'm fearful that if Trump were to be acquitted, which I think people fairly have gotten knowledge that he probably will be, that that gave a kind of permission slip or a license to the white supremacists in the country who have been, you know, really more and more vocal in the past year or so than they had been for, you know, a long time. I mean there are probably a lot of different causes for that. And clearly, you're right. I mean, after a civil war where the country is broken apart, the direction of the country is certainly at stake. But so is the meaning of constitution. So is the meaning at that time, the Declaration of Independence. And here I think there were real constitutional issues at stake, you know, about what a president's powers really are and what one chief executive should be and is allowed to do -- and one of those things is to not allow foreign countries to meddle in domestic elections.

CO: Of the other two impeachments, and of course Nixon resigned before he could be impeached -- has it been as highly partisan as it is? This seems almost completely partisan in this case. Is it? Does that compare with the others?

BW: Well, Nixon is a striking counter example, because I think it's common wisdom that he resigned because he knew he would be impeached and that would be by a bipartisan vote. You know, with the case of Andrew Johnson, you can't get more partisan than a country that just fought a war. North against South in civil war where 750,000 people were killed, and people were still being slaughtered. So that's pretty partisan. So it seems to me that the whole notion of, "oh, this is terrible because it's partisan" is a bit of a red herring. Of course it's going to be partisan. How could it not be partisan? Because people have points of view and match -- they represent parties whose electorate have voted for them.

CO: You co-wrote a letter that -- what -- 700 historians signed on to calling for this impeachment.

BW: I think the number might be up to a thousand now.

CO: Why did so many American -- and these are all American historians -- why was it necessary? Why do you think that you and other historians needed to step in on this?

BW: Well, I think that we believe that we have a significant role to play, not just in the classroom, not just writing, not just making films, because there are filmmakers involved. But because, you know, we care about the longevity of our country, which is a fairly new country. We feel that once again, it's at a crossroads, maybe not as critical as right after a war, but certainly critical if suddenly we live in a global world. Suddenly there are other countries participating in our elections and we felt that this is almost like an old fashioned petition.

CO: How do you think that Donald Trump and this impeachment -- how does it fit in to history? Where does that put him to be put in the same sentence as Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton's impeachment? Where does that put him?

BW: Well, I'm only laughing because I wouldn't want it, but I wouldn't want to be president. It's not a good thing. And I think that Donald Trump's letter of yesterday shows that he himself knows whatever he might say -- he might call it a hoax or a sham. He knows that he's going to go down in history as one of the very very few presidents who were impeached. And that's a stain on his presidency -- no matter what happens in the Senate.

CO: Ms. Wineapple we will leave it there. And, of course, we'll be watching. Thank you so much.

BW: Thank you. Bye bye.

KG: That was Brenda Wineapple -- the author of "The Impeachers: The Trial of Andrew Johnson and the Dream of a Just Nation." She was in New York City.

[Music]

Turkey Vulture

KG: A lobster fisherman locked eyes with a turkey vulture. The turkey vulture blinked. It wasn't a staring contest. Robert Galbraith was standing on Nova Scotia's Eastern Shore recently, trying to discern whether a turkey vulture was dead or alive as it lay on the sand, buried under the weight of a massive dead seal. The turkey vulture was in dire straits, but it was very much alive as the blink proved. Mr Galbraith and his friend were surveying the scene on Sunday after the shore had been pounded by a storm. They helped bring the bird to safety and even gave it a name. Robert Galbraith told "Maritime Noon" host Bob Murphy the whole story today.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT GALBRAITH: I noticed a wing underneath and the seal flapping in the wind. The wind was just ripping. And then I saw the red head and I knew right away it was a turkey vulture. And I was going to have a close look at it because I thought it was dead. And all sudden it opened its eyes and like winked through. You could see the back of the eyes. And I was going "I couldn't have seen that." And I looked closer again and sure as heck it started opening his eyes and closing its eyes, opening its eyes. And I realized it was alive. So I said, "Jeff get over here. This bird's alive."

BOB MURPHY: Which is a shocker, because this is a pretty big seal we're talking about, right?

ROBERT GALBRAITH: Yes. This one, I guesstimate was between 300 and 500 pounds at least. Even though it's a large bird with a five to six foot wingspan. The turkey vulture actually weighs about a kilogram or a bit more. It's all a wing. So Jeff grabbed the long two by four, which had drifted up on the beach. There was 130 pound lobster fisherman with this large bar of wood trying to turn over this probably 500 pound seal. We ended up putting the bird, by the way, wrapped up in a recycle linen bag in my trunk. And my trunk still smells like death. It's probably the first turkey vulture if it's ever taken two ferries in its life.

BOB MURPHY: So all in all, I mean, considering it was squashed under a grey seal, the bird seems to be doing fairly well. Does it have a name at this point?

ROBERT GALBRAITH: [Laughs] Yeah. Well, I named it "The Rock" after Dwayne Johnson because it had a bald head. I realized it's a bit cheesy when I realized he was a Canadian-American with some First Nations blood in him. I thought, wow, that's the person I want to name the bird after.

KG: Robert Galbraith is a photojournalist turned lobster fisherman on Brier Island in Nova Scotia. He told that story about saving a turkey vulture to Maritime Noon host Bob Murphy earlier today.

[Music]

Memorizing Finnegans Wake

Guest: Neal Kosaly-Meyer

KG: "riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shore to bend of bay brings us by a commodus vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs." So begins, perhaps the least readable novel ever written: "Finnegans Wake" by James Joyce. As you know, if you got past that sentence, the going does not get easier. But according to Neal Kosaly-Meyer that's precisely the appeal. For years now, the Seattle based composer and pianist hasn't just been reading Finnegans Wake, he's been memorizing it. And reciting excerpts at public performances. This weekend, he tackled Chapter Six. He says it was the hardest yet. I'm inclined to believe him. We reached Neal Kosaly-Meyer in Seattle.

CO: Neil, for those who are not unfortunate enough to have had to study Finnegans Wake at university, how would you describe it?

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: Finnegans Wake is a book to be experienced. It's a book to be heard. It's a tough go if you're just going to try and read it. It's an even tougher go if your main goal is to understand it. Joyce said as he was composing it, this is a book that's being written by the people around me. And it seems that he was collecting things he overheard, things he read in the papers, or on advertising or whatever. He definitely seems like he had a story to tell. And the story of Finnegans Wake -- if I will put it is: there's a guy who met another guy in a park, without being asked to, he defended himself against certain accusations. The other guy thought that was pretty suspicious. And rumors and scandals arose all over the city of Dublin. But his wife is on his side. And she's going to stand by him through thick and thin. That's basically the story.

CO: Okay, so you were determined to understand what the book was about. But the question is: why were you determined to memorize it?

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: I'm determined to memorize it because I'm not really determined to understand it at all. In the course of studying it, it becomes clear that there are certain things are going on. But I think the beautiful thing about it is you can have a delightful time reading the book without understanding anything.

CO: Well, you're not daunted, though, when you looked at it. And well, first of all, when you knew that on the very first page there is one of a number of one hundred letter words that Joyce used in this.

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: That word was kind of what sparked the project. I was a graduate student in music theory at the time. And when I picked up the book and tried to read it, it was like I was having to stop and I really got stopped when I got to the middle of the first page with that hundred letter word. And the thought was I would have to like study this and practice this and take it like one syllable at a time if I were going to read this and that was like an "aha" that this is more like a difficult piece of piano music. So with that hundred letter word I say, okay well the first syllable is "ba." And the second syllable is "ba." And I put those together -- it is Baba. And eventually I worked it up and that word [singing] Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnsk awntoohoohoordenenthurnuk. That's it.

CO: That's the word now. [Laughs]

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: But I couldn't do that when I first saw it. It took practice. And so the next thought is, well, maybe the difficulty is that it's like the hardest thing on the page -- it certainly wouldn't be too hard to work out the rest of it. [Singing] Bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnsk awntoohoohoordenenthurnuk of a once wallstrait oldparr is related early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy.

CO: Are you reciting that? That's from memory? That's part of what you have.

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: Yes. That's the third paragraph.

CO: How much have you memorized of Finnegans Wake at this point?

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: I just performed Chapter Six this past Saturday evening.

CO: So where does that take us as far as the length of the book?

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: The book is 626 pages or something in the standard edition. My project is to -- and so far I'm on track -- is to learn a new chapter each year and to perform it.

CO: So starting when? How long ago did you start?

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: Well, I really started in the 80s. I learned Chapter One between like 1984 and 86 and gave a number of performances at our apartment in San Diego in between 87 and 89. But I didn't really continue at that point. I picked it up in 2013. And I decided well, I really want to do this I think. And so the first performance was the end of 2014. And then each December since then, I've presented a new chapter.

CO: And what's your plan for how long it's going to take you to?

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: Well, there are 17 chapters -- so 17 years.

CO: [Laughs] It took him 17 years to write it.

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: Yes, exactly.

CO: Give us another example, because it's really quite fun to listen to you recit this.

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: [Laughs] Okay. This is from Chapter 6. There's this wonderful fable toward the end of the chapter. [Reciting] The Mookse and The Gripes.Gentes and laitymen, fullstoppers and semicolonials, hybreds and lubberds! Eins within a space and a wearywide space it wast ere wohned a Mookse. The onesomeness wast alltolonely, archunsitslike, broady oval, and a Mookse he would a walking go (My hood! cries Antony Romeo), so one grandsumer evening, after a great morning and his good supper of gammon and spittish, having flabelled his eyes, pilleoled his nostrils, vacticanated his ears and palliumed his throats, he put on his impermeable, seized his im-pugnable, harped on his crown and stepped out of his immobile De Rure Albo (socolled becauld it was chalkfull of masterplasters and had borgeously letout gardens strown with cascadas, pinta-costecas, horthoducts and currycombs) and set off from Luds-town a spasso to see how badness was badness in the weirdest of all pensible ways.

CO: [Chuckles] That's from Chapter 6 of Finnegans Wake. Your recital of Chapters 6 -- the performance -- is two and a half hours long.

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: It's like the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. [Laughter] Aside from a few moves that I could think about. But as far as any creative project, this was more work than I think I've ever done on anything.

CO: Well, Neal we won't keep you. [Laughter] Obviously you have a lot to do. But it is great chatting with you and thanks for entertaining us with the book that many wouldn't consider entertaining.

NEAL KOSALY-MEYER: It's my pleasure. Thank you Carol.

KG: Neal Kosaly-Meyer is a composer known for his public recitations of James Joyce's notoriously indecipherable book, "Finnegans Wake." We reached him in Seattle. We have more on this story on our webpage: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: United Nations refugee children

United Nations refugee children

Guest: Angela Modarelli

KG: When your computer fails, you reboot. It might seem like a glib analogy for the failures of the world's response to refugees. But a reboot is exactly what the United Nations Commissioner for Refugees is calling for. Filippo Grandi wants to see a fairer, more streamlined approach to hosting those who've been forced from their homes. And right now in Geneva, Switzerland, global leaders and humanitarian groups are meeting for the first global refugee forum. And considering what a real life reboot of that system might look like. At the Moria refugee camp on the Greek island of Lesbos, Angela Modarelli sees the need for change firsthand. She's a psychologist with Doctors Without Borders who works with children at the camp. She says, for some, the toll of fleeing their countries and living in the camp is almost unbearable. We reached her in Mytilene, Greece, not far from the camp.

CO: Ms. Modarelli what signs of distress are you seeing among the children in that camp?

ANGELA MODARELLI: We are seeing various amount of symptoms of distress that go from sleeping disturbance, from generalized fear, to specific fear, symptoms of anxiety, to the most severe symptoms of self-harming, and detachment, isolation, and withdrawal.

CO: What are the children doing to themselves?

AM: It depends very much from their past experience. Those children have been already facing some very serious traumatic experience. And now they can either regress seeing their behavior and we go from not being able to focus anymore not able to read anymore until they stop talking, stop having eye contact or having aggressive behavior towards themselves, which is a way in which they kind of cope with the frustration, the pain, that they feel around them. Depending from the age -- well they do cuts themselves. If they are in their adolescence period they might also take medication, abuse medication to end their life with the specific objective of ending their life. Or when we go to more younger children between 6 to 12 they harm themselves by hitting themselves, sometimes with objects, sometimes with their heads. Some other times they can pull their hair out or scratch themselves to the point where they bleed. So it depends on also how they have coped with what they lived before.

CO: How young are these children? When you say the ones who are just lashing out at themselves or hitting their head on the wall or pulling their hair out or scratching themselves or withdrawing -- how old are these children?

AM: The youngest we have seen is two years old.

CO: Two years old?

AM: Yes.

CO: And there are approximately 7000 children just in Moria camp alone. Is that right?

AM: Yes. The number increases every day. And to be honest, I cannot keep up anymore because when I arrived three months ago, there were about 8,000 people between adults and children. And now there are 18,000.

CO: As a psychologist in that camp, what can you do to help those children, given how overcrowded and limited your resources are?

AM: As a mental health team, I have other three colleagues, psychologists working with me, one educator, and one cultural mediator actually. All translation in Farsi. The majority of the population is also from Afghanistan at the moment. Sometimes the difficult answer I have is: when they go back. And that's what we always ask ourselves constantly. So what we try to do when they go back to Moria because we have consultation and then they go back and the living conditions that are having the most horrific consequences on their behavior and their mental health now. And we see that. What we try to do is actually offer them some kind of space where they can be children again. Where they can own to space themselves to also test their capacity to find a place of safety. That's the most important part of our job, is to be there to make them feel that there is somewhere, a little place, where they can go back to the childhood that they actually deserve. Because in Moria camp it's quite impossible to be a child.

CO: The conditions in Moria camp, we have done interviews already about that. We've seen images that are something out of hell. I mean, the overcrowding, the violence, the fires, everything that has happened in that place where they all are. But they've already come from stress. You say most of the ones have come from Afghanistan. What have they already gone through that they're still trying to process before they are living in this camp?

AM: There are unaccompanied minors, so among those children we are talking about. Which means that there are more than thousand children there who have no one and they have traveled all the way alone. If we only think about this, we can imagine how vulnerable a young boy can be traveling alone from Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq or any other place where there is war or conflict. So they are the most vulnerable ones. They might have been through sexual violence. They might been abused. They might have weakness. Abuse of others or even just other things that have to do with violence. And in their home country, some of them have lost family members.

CO: It's such a picture of despair that you are painting with this. And I'm thinking at the same time as we speak, there is a global refugee forum taking place far away in Geneva, Switzerland, where they're trying to find solutions. That's the intention. If you could be there, if you could hold that room and tell them what you need in the way of solutions, what would you say?

AM: I would say that all the people in Moria have the right to have a dignified life and future and they must be evacuated as soon as possible in a place that gives them back this dignity. It doesn't have to happen tomorrow. It has to happen today, right now.

CO: Ms. Modarelli I admire your courage and I thank you for the work you're doing. And thanks for speaking with us.

AM: Thank you very much.

KG: Angela Modarelli is a psychologist working for Doctors Without Borders at the Moria refugee camp in Greece. She was nearby in Mytilene. And you can find out more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

CPR

KG: Phys. Ed. doesn't just teach you how to exercise and dodge dodgeballs. It taught one Windsor teenager how to save a life. On a Saturday morning, two months ago, Turki Ayash noticed his father needed help. And just two days before the Grade 11 student had learned CPR in gym class. Turki Ayash is now being hailed for saving his dad's life. Today, Mr. Ayash, who moved with his family from Syria three years ago, told the CBC's "Windsor Morning" about that Saturday morning.

SOUNDCLIP

TURKI AYASH: On Saturday morning, my dad was having a heart attack. So I just woke up, and I'm like, all my brothers are crying. I just go to his bed and just like, find him in the bed. And he was losing his heartbeat. So in the moment, I just think what I learned in the class and I started doing CPR and everything.

TONY DOUCETTE: And what happened after that?

TURKI AYASH: The ambulance came and they tell me, just keep going. You're doing great. But I was feeling that I didn't do it right because he wasn't like reacting with me. But they do -- it doesn't matter if he's not breathing, but all the blood in the body is moving. And that's very good for him. So when they take him to the hospital, they was on him like three days. And like he was not waking up. Then they tell me, if you didn't do the CPR he would be dead.

TONY DOUCETTE: They, in fact, told you that you saved your father's life.

TURKI AYASH: Yeah. That's right.

TONY DOUCETTE: How is your father doing now?

TURKI AYASH: He right now is great. They put in his body a pacemaker. That's to protect him if this happens again.

TONY DOUCETTE: And now all of this happened two months ago.

TURKI AYASH: Yes, that's right.

TONY DOUCETTE: And your father is 49 years old?

TURKI AYASH: Yes.

TONY DOUCETTE: He's a young man.

TURKI AYASH: Yeah. Like they were surprised. Like why that's happened to him. But he smokes. They say that's one of the reason why this happened to him.

TONY DOUCETTE: Does your father still smoke?

TURKI AYASH: No. When he just came out from the hospital, he say, I'm not going to smoke it once in my life. Like God save me and I'm not going to do it again. Like, it's just one chance.

KG: That was Grade 11 student Turki Ayash speaking with Tony Doucette, host of Windsor Morning. Today, Mr. Ayash was given a certificate from Windsor Police for performing CPR when his father had a heart attack.

[Music]

SNC-Lavalin plea

Guest: Jennifer Quaid

KG: SNC-Lavalin has itself a deal, but it isn't quite the deferred prosecution agreement that threatened to bring down the Trudeau government. Instead, the engineering and construction giant has agreed to plead guilty to fraud and pay a quarter of a billion dollar fine. In return, federal prosecutors will drop five other charges, all stemming from the company's efforts to secure infrastructure contracts with a former Libyan dictator, Muammar Gaddafi, in the early 2000s. The deal comes just days after a Montreal jury convicted a former SNC executive of bribing the dictator's playboy son and defrauding the Libyan people. Jennifer Quaid is a former federal prosecutor who now teaches law at the University of Ottawa. We reached Professor Quaid in Ottawa.

CO: Professor Quaid, SNC-Lavalin made it clear today that it's happy to have a deal that will put this whole business in the past. What's in it for the prosecution?

JENNIFER QUAID: Well, for the prosecution, as with any case where there is a settlement, you have a conviction in this case without the uncertainty of a trial. And criminal trials are always uncertain. And so for them, they have the certainty of the settlement. They've obtained a fine and a probation order and they can say, look, we've come to an end and to a satisfactory end.

CO: As you know, it was a decision to not allow for something called a deferred prosecution agreement about a year ago that SNC wanted and the Trudeau government was ready to provide that but Jody Wilson-Raybould fought it very hard. As you know, it became a quite a large political storm. So how is the outcome of this any different than had there been a deferred prosecution agreement for SNC-Lavalin?

JQ: Well, that is actually an excellent question. And I've done a little bit of thinking about it in the brief time that we've had. And the way I see it right now is that from SNC's perspective, they did pretty much get the same sort of outcome that they would have had from a remediation agreement, which is what we call it in Canada. It's a deferred prosecution agreement in its basic concept. So they are going to avoid ending up being disbarred. They now have a fine amount that's been determined that they have to pay. And I think they always knew they were going to be on the hook for a fine. And there is a probation order for three years. But to some extent, the company always seemed to communicate that they were more than happy and very keen to demonstrate that they were changing and that they had changed and that they were willing to do what was necessary. So from that perspective, they seem to have gotten the same kind of outcome. From the prosecution side I mean, the big difference is we have a conviction. It's not just a remediation agreement -- a remediation agreement does not involve a conviction, although there is supposed to be an acknowledgement of responsibility. And I think the big difference with a deferred prosecution agreement, you would have seen more detail and more information. And those things are set out in writing. And then there's a judgment that says, yes, this is in the public interest and here's why. So we don't get that.

CO: From a legal point of view, you can look through the entrails of this and see all kinds of differences. But from the public point of view, we watched what happened when Jody Wilson-Raybould fought against the prime minister. There was a damning ethics report. It's certainly affected the outcome of the election and had all kinds of repercussions for possibly years to come. So from the public point of view, why did we go through all of that?

JQ: Well, yes, I think hindsight does force us to consider what happened. I have to say from my perspective that given the factors that were set out in the law for how to determine who's a good candidate for remediation agreement, SNC-Lavalin was always going to be a stretch. They have several factors that weigh against them, including the extent of involvement of their senior executives and the fact that they didn't come forward. So they were always going to be a tough sell and it was even harder because they were going to be the first case. So from the prosecution's perspective, in terms of deciding against negotiating with them, I think there are lots of defendable reasons for why they made that decision. As for Jody Wilson-Raybould's decision to support her prosecution service. I think there are also good reasons why she made that decision, chief among them, that the power to issue a directive in a specific prosecution has never been used before and should be reserved for the most exceptional of cases. And it wasn't clear that that was that exceptional case. So what started out as, I think a well reasoned decision about why one wouldn't move forward, the prosecution did blow up into a scandal, in part because there were other people in the government, including the prime minister himself, who felt that that reasoning, you know, was not the right reasoning. And I think that's the scandal part. It's not really to do with SNC-Lavalin per say. The political scandal has to do with how different people in the government reacted to the way the criminal justice system was handling the case. And I think that was always going to be highly problematic. You know, you cannot manipulate the criminal justice system to come to the outcome you want -- whatever your well-intentioned rationale is. And I think that's what really got everyone in trouble here.

CO: SNC has made it clear and has been accepted that they have changed their ways. They've cleaned up their act. Their stock price was surging. And so for Canadians looking at this deal and how it went down, does it give them a disincentive? Does it give a disincentive for any company or executive to act unethically in the pursuit of profits?

JQ: Well, I don't know that we can say with any certainty what the long term impact, particularly the sort of general deterrent effect might be of the particular outcome for SNC on others. I will say though, that, you know, all businesses pay some price when they are subject to long periods of uncertainty associated with, you know, a trial or criminal charges. So, you know, SNC has been subjected to some some negative consequences as a function of this long period during which they've been under a cloud of suspicion. But in the end, the outcome does appear to be relatively good for them. And the stock price result seems to confirm the impression of investors is similar. So I agree with you that one can be left with the sense of whether this was effective enough. What I hope for in the future is that SNC was maybe an oddball case, but we still have this settlement tool in the criminal code. There are other corruption cases. What are we going to do going forward? And that's what I would really like to hear the government on is you know the regime actually needs regulations. It needs guidelines. It needs probably an enforcement agency. And those things would all make it more likely and easier to implement these kinds of deals when they're appropriate. And nothing's happened on that score. So if we care about anti-corruption enforcement going forward, we have to stop talking about SNC and we have to start talking about what we're going to do in the future. And, you know, not just people like me, but the OECD and others are watching. So I think that the story isn't over on remediation agreements, even if we've turned the page on SNC-Lavalin.

CO: Professor Quaid it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

JQ: Thank you very much Carol.

KG: Jennifer Quaid is a professor at the University of Ottawa's School of Law. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music]

Boomer

KG: It's no surprise. Take a glance at the shortlist for the Netherlands' 2019 Word of the Year and you'll see many of the words were related to the climate. You've got forward thinking terms like ""ecopopulisme" -- and "vleeswroeging" which literally means "meat regret." Too much time at the charcuterie board and you're liable to feel a profound sense of "vleeswroeging." But not all the climate related words were so progressive. Take, for instance, "klimaatdrammer" which came in third place. Translated into English "klimaatdrammer" means "climate nag" -- as in someone who goes on and on about the impending climate apocalypse. What a klimaatdrammer! Then in second place you've got the closely related "Klimaatspijbelaar" -- a handy word used to describe the growing generation of disobedient children who skipped school in order to go to a climate protest. What a klimaatspijbelaars! Thankfully it seems all the klimaatspijbelaars took some time off from their incessant klimaatdrammer-ing and came out to vote as well. And in the end, with a convincing 41.8 percent of the vote, the Van Dale's Great Dictionary of the Dutch Language crowned "boomer" the Word of the Year. Yes, Boomer -- as an "okay boomer." The now ubiquitous phrase a young person might use to swiftly dismiss a baby-boomer's out-of-touch idea like I don't know if they tried to create and vote into existence new words to complain about engaged youth who are trying to save the planet? Just for example.

[Music]

Part 3: As it Happened: The Archive Edition - The evolution of As it Happens

As it Happened archives - "The evolution of AIH"

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This holiday season, we're doing some thoughtful re-gifting: sharing encore broadcasts of some of the more notable interviews from over 50 years of As It Happens. In the coming days, we're giving you a second chance to hear some of the best episodes of our special archival series that aired this summer. Tonight, we start by tracing the history of this show and the people who helped shape it. This is As It Happened: The Archive Edition.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight. The revolution may not have been televised, but it was being broadcast on the radio in 1968 live. And as it happened via a new national current affairs show called As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Nobody had ever done a live current affairs program before for two hours from 8:00 to 10:00 in every time zone. So we'd start at 7:00 Toronto time and finish at 1 o'clock in the morning.

CH: You've come a long way, baby. If you could turn back time and tune in then, you wouldn't recognize that very young show. And a lot of the major changes started with the first woman to co-host As It Happens: journalist, Barbara Frum.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA FRUM: We would like to speak to President Amin.

CH: As It Happened: The Archive Edition. Radio teeming with personalities.

[Music: Theme]

CH: When it debuted on November 18th, 1968, As It Happens, was a very different show than the one you hear today. First, it was much longer than 90 minutes because it was broadcast live across the country, picking up listeners in different time zones as it moved from the East to the West Coast.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY BROWN: Let me set the scene. There was a producer whose name was Val who had started...

CH: This is Harry Brown, one of the show's original co-hosts, speaking in 1999 on the show's 30th anniversary. And he's talking to a panel of his successors, namely Fireside Al Maitland, Michael Enright, Elizabeth Gray, Dennis Trudeau, Mary Lou Finlay, and Barbara Budd about landing the co-host gig opposite Phillip Forsyth back in the late 60s.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: So I got this assignment and I was the only one there with short hair and no love beads. And I was still smoking at time. And I smoked regular tobacco. [Laughter]

VOICE 2: Everyone else smoked drum. Right?

VOICE 1: Well, something like that. [Laughter] But the program's one night a week, Mondays for two hours from 8:00 to 10:00 in every time zone. So we'd start at 7:00 Toronto time and finish at 1 o'clock in the morning.

VOICE 3: How often did you play bridge?

VOICE 1: When the tape was running, which wasn't very often in those days because pretty well, the entire program was live.

VOICE 4: But you got to spin records, too, didn't you?

VOICE 1: Occasionally. And it's funny, one of the local news writers in noticing our program said that Phil, who was a very hip guy, was into all the latest music. And then there's Harry Brown who knows his Guy Lombardo. [Laughter].

CH: Harry Browne in 1999. Well, now is a perfect time to bust out the AIH Retrograde Spacetime Repositioner 2.0. I'm going to set it for a few months after the As It Happens launch. Let's do you know, Monday, July 28th 1969 at 7 p.m. And I'm going to set the location for Pickle Lake, Ontario. Now let's see if we can't get a signal and tune in... Yeah. Here it is. This is no longer the sound of the AIH RSP 2.0. This is the opening theme, at least for Ontario and Quebec. We can't know what opened the broadcast to the East Coast because the tape, if it was ever preserved, has unfortunately been lost.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Well, we're back in the Maritimes again. But hello to Ontario and Quebec. This is it. Harry Brown.

VOICE 2: Phillip Forsyth. As It Happens.

[Music]

VOICE 2: All right, Harry, we're back in business here. What will we be doing for this hour?

VOICE 1: Part of the Kennedy scene. German deserters and draft dodgers in Berlin. Buffalo days in Regina...

CH: Still Harry Brown was pretty sure Moe Koffman's original Curried Soul kicked off the very first episode of AIH. Here he is again in 1999.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Well, I remember when we started with the Moe Koffman theme.

VOICE 2: When did that come in?

VOICE 1: At the beginning.

VOICE 2: Right at the beginning.

VOICE 1: Yes. And continue for quite a long time. When it changed...

VOICE 3: They tampered. Yeah.

CH: Of course, the theme has changed, reverted and changed again over the years. A little more on that later. Right now, let's dial back to those early days. Once again, Harry Brown recalling two subsequent As It Happens hosts how novel a radio program As It Happens was in the 1960s.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: That's right. Nobody had ever done a live current affairs program before. We would actually allow people to use their...

VOICE 2: Well unless you count Cross Country Checkup, which began in 65 -- don't forget.

VOICE 3: What did doing it live mean in terms of goofs and mistake?

VOICE 1: I think we got out of it almost safely.

VOICE 4: You must have had situations where you went up...

VOICE 1: Yeah -- none of them flash back to me at the moment because...

VOICE 3: Forgotten.

VOICE 1: We would call the people obviously in advance to say, well, okay, we're going to be calling you at 8:15 your time. So, you know, be ready. And then they'd go.

CH: Well, here's a little refresher of how that could go again from July 28th 1969. Here's Harry Brown's co-host, Phillip Forsyth, back announcing a music number and throwing to reporter Penny Williams for a piece on a home for unwed mothers in Edmonton. As you'll hear, it was live. And as it happens where anything can happen.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Well, a little more again is 'Dirty Willie' -- Mongo Santamaria. Now, Penny Williams has just come into the studio. And I'm not sure why Penny Williams is here.

PENNY WILLIAMS: Well, let me tell Phillip Forsyth. I'm going to be talking to two people in Edmonton. There is a young lady named Ms. Betty Walkie living there who is, I guess, looking after and responsible for a house that has five unmarried mothers living in it. Each of them with a relatively new baby. She helps them with food, helps them through the tough times. The house is owned by an Edmonton lawyer and he rents it to them. Betty herself, who's 20, has a four year old son. She lives with her mother. We're also speaking with Mr. John Warden, who owns a home right next door to the house where these unmarried mothers living. He and a number of other people live in the area are not happy that the girls should be there. I'd like to start with Mr. Warden. Mr. Warden.

JOHN WARDEN: Hello.

PENNY WILLIAMS: Would you please tell me your reaction when you found out that there was going to be a group of unmarried mothers living next door to you in Edmonton?

JOHN WARDEN: Well, I was somewhat stunned actually. I mean this just came on like a ton of bricks. Just about how I felt and how the neighborhood felt.

PENNY WILLIAMS: Well, I gather that you objected to it, is that right?

JOHN WARDEN: I and there were 31 names. [Voice in background] To keep this as a one family home. And the whole thing hinges on whether these girls constitute one family. If they do, the city can convince us that they do -- well, then there's nothing we can do. They have been given one year's residency.

PENNY WILLIAMS: Why do you object to their being there, Mr. Warden?

JOHN WARDEN: Well, as simple as this: How come five girls look after a property for instance?

PENNY WILLIAMS: Have you found that they are troublesome neighbors?

JOHN WARDEN: No, we have not. No.

PENNY WILLIAMS: It was mentioned to me as well -- and this was by Dr. Grant, a lawyer who represented one of the rate payers who objected to their presence, that they felt that these girls living in the neighborhood would mean that property values were dropped. Are you afraid of this as well?

JOHN WARDEN: Yes, I am actually.

PENNY WILLIAMS: Suppose that you were looking for a house, and when you went to look at it, you asked who was next door -- and they told you, five unmarried mothers. Would you buy the house?

JOHN WARDEN: No, I don't think they would. No.

PENNY WILLIAMS: We have on the line as well Ms. Betty Walkie, whom I think you have heard of before and perhaps heard around Edmonton. She has been helping these young mothers. She's a mother herself. Yes.

JOHN WARDEN: My wife would like to talk to Betty Walkie.

PENNY WILLIAMS: All right, fine. We'll let Ms. Walkie speak for a moment and you put your wife on the telephone. Ms. Walkie you heard what Mr. Warden had to say. How do you react? The first objection seems to be that the girls aren't really one family.

BETTY WALKIE: None of them have blood relations. But the girls...

[Woman heard on phone-line]

PENNY WILLIAMS: Mrs. Warden, Ms. Walkie is just speaking for a moment. Would you just stay on the line and listen and then you can join the conversation in a minute?

VOICE: I want to know, what is this all about anyway? Why are we being phoned about this?

PENNY WILLIAMS: Well, as I explained, your husband. Because we had heard about this issue that had been raised in Edmonton, and he agreed to come on the line and explain why some of the people who lived in the neighborhood objected to the girls living there. And Ms. Walkie agreed to come on the show and explain why they were there and the purpose of the house.

VOICE: What -- is this on the air now?

PENNY WILLIAMS: Well, it's on the air. At the moment we are on the air in the Maritimes...And sorry, in Ontario and Quebec. And later, when we'll be on air out west, because we're on air between 8 and 10 in each region.

VOICE: Well, he didn't know he was on the air and he doesn't want to be involved in this.

PENNY WILLIAMS: I am sorry. I told him at the time that it was the CBC and that we would be putting it on air.

VOICE: He got the CBC, but he didn't know it was on the air. [Asking John Warden] Did you know this was on the air? No -- he doesn't. He didn't know it was on the air.

PENNY WILLIAMS: Well, I'm sorry, ma'am, I did tell him. Perhaps he didn't hear me.

VOICE: He didn't hear you then because...

PENNY WILLIAMS: Okay. Well, then shall I just go on with Ms. Walkie if you'd rather not take part?

VOICE: We would rather not take part.

PENNY WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you very much.

VOICE: We would rather not be on the air.

PENNY WILLIAMS: All right. Good night.

CH: From July 28th, 1969 reporter Penny Williams on As It Happens, making the best of a guest whose wife cut his interview short.

[Music]

CH: You're listening to, As It Happened: The Archive Edition. Tonight, another installment of a feature that we're calling: That was then, this is now. Where we compare and contrast the early days of As It Happens to the show today. Tonight's episode revisits the early days of the program and how it was shaped into the As It Happens you hear happening now. Within months of its launch, As It Happens, merged with another show hosted by a guy named Peter Gzowski. Here's Harry Brown again in 1999, speaking to that panel of former As It Happens hosts.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Now, we were doing As It Happens. And then Radio Free Friday came along about three, four, maybe six months later. Identical format. On Fridays, obviously. And Peter and I think Maggie Morris, we're doing the Friday. And then Peter did a pilot for a show called This Country in the Morning. And Barbara Frum took over Peter's job on Friday nights.

CH: Barbara Frum has arrived. And As It Happens, is finally beginning to sound a little more like the show we know today. But with a rather complex rotation of hosts Harry Brown, Bill Ronald, Cy Strange, and Barbara. Oh, and we still haven't quite settled on a theme yet.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY BROWN: I'm Harry Browne and this is As It Happens.

[Music]

HARRY BROWN: There is a whole brand new theme and kind of a brand new show. Though not really. We've got five nights a week with all kinds of people. First of all, Barbara Frum is our host tonight. Do you like being a host or a hostess?

BARBARA FRUM: Oh, I don't mind being a co-host. That is true. It's a good thing to call women host from now. This is probably...

HARRY BROWN: Who do you want to be a host for?

BARBARA FRUM: It's really a very crowded studio for you two guys, because you've been here for how long together?

HARRY BROWN: Two years.

BARBARA FRUM: And now it's like you spawned Cy Strange and me.

VOICE 1: Hi. How are you? Who went up the river? Well, we'll find out. Yes, Cy is going to be around too. And this is our whole package: Bill Ronald, Barbara Frum...

BARBARA FRUM: We're alternating Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Tuesday, Thursday. And there's some little man that's just going to do that. Nothing else -- at the CBC.

VOICE 1: Well I trust somebody can keep track of it all, Barbara, because I guess Harry and I sort of plan a year day by day. And the same applies to you, Bill.

VOICE 2: No, not really. I'll be on tomorrow night and Barbara will be on Wednesday night and then I'll be on Thursday night and she'll be on Friday night. And the next week it'll be me Monday, Wednesday, Friday and so on.

HARRY BROWN: Does that sound confusing to you, Cy?

VOICE 1: 24 hours at a time.

HARRY BROWN: This is confusing to me.

VOICE 2: The secret is that, listen, every night, Monday through Friday.

VOICE 1: Pick up the world at 6:00. Actually, the idea is leave your radio on CBC right now and leave it there so you don't forget.

VOICE 2: Right. And it'll be interesting, entertaining and informative. So stay with us.

VOICE 1: And our listeners in Newfoundland and the Maritimes have now been joined by a beautiful Quebec and Ontario.

BARBARA FRUM: And beautiful Bill Ronald.

VOICE 1: And gorgeous Cy Strange.

VOICE 2: Thank you very much.

VOICE 1: And music.

CH: A cavalcade of hosts in October of 1971. But one would go on to define the show during the next formative decade: Barbara Frum. Here's Harry Brown.

SOUNDCLIP

HARRY BROWN: Barbara came into Radio Free Friday. And then when the programs merged, we had Bill Ronald and Barbara and Cy Strange and myself who would do the show every night. And so you'd leave home not knowing who you're going to work with. Whether there's Bill or Barbara. And let me tell you, they were somewhat different.

VOICE 1: Different?

HARRY BROWN: Yes. I'm sure you're all surprised at that. But Barbara came into the program and she was above all things: a journalist. She was meticulous and hardworking and and amazing. I mean, she had a beguiling kind of tone on the air that would lead the most unsuspecting victim to say the most outrageous things on the radio.

VOICE 1: Sort of an attractive Mike Wallace.

HARRY BROWN: Well, yes.

[Music]

BARBARA FRUM: Yes. Is that state house in Entebbe?

VOICE: Huh?

BARBARA FRUM: Would like to speak to President Amin.

[Music]

BARBARA FRUM: Hi, Mr. Ballard.

VOICE 1: How are you?

BARBARA FRUM: How are you?

VOICE 1: Well, I'm all right.

BARBARA FRUM: You won a hockey game.

VOICE 1: Well we won two. What's the matter with your addition?

VOICE 2: That's right Harold. You won two.

VOICE 1: Why don't you get somebody on there who can handle this job?

BARBARA FRUM: [Laughs]

[Music]

VOICE 1: Are you a man or a woman?

BARBARA FRUM: I'm a man.

VOICE 1: Are you a man? You are a woman.

BARBARA FRUM: Well, then why did you ask?

VOICE 1: Because you reflect a woman's fear.

BARBARA FRUM: I see. And you?

[Music]

VOICE 1: I want to say 130, lady and that's all -- the rest is incidental.

BARBARA FRUM: Can we talk to one of the people you're holding there?

VOICE 1: Yeah. Okay. Hang on I'll get somebody.

[Music]

BARBARA FRUM: I have another question for you.

VOICE 1: Good. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to Dick. So when you learn to mind your own business, let me talk to Dick and it'll be fine. Goodbye.

[Music]

VOICE 1: Barbara.

BARBARA FRUM: Yeah. That's not like him.

VOICE 1: That's not like him at all.

BARBARA FRUM: He's upset about something.

VOICE 1: He is. And I must say, I both expressed dismay on his behalf.

BARBARA FRUM: Should we call him back and cheer him up?

[Music]

VOICE 1: You're a very very bad reporter. You're very bad. Put me on to somebody else. You are one of the worst.

BARBARA FRUM: Really?

VOICE 1: Really are. You're very rude. You're very imperceptive. You're very ignorant. Your technique is just crude. You don't have any finesse. Now, put me on to somebody else.

BARBARA FRUM: I am it Ms. Good. I am it, I'm afraid.

[Music]

VOICE 1: What do you think you're talking to, Margaret Trudeau?!

VOICE 2: That's the best interview I've done in a year. She's great. She's salty as hell. I love her. [Laughter].

BARBARA FRUM: Alice, goodbye.

CH: Just a few highlights from Barbara Frum's decade long tenure behind the As It Happens mic. As co-host Harry Brown acknowledged, Barbara had a knack for eliciting the unexpected from her guests. But not long after she joined the show, she revealed some life changing news about herself that she never discussed on air and only ever shared with a few people.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: One of the most touching moments in my life came when Barbara took me into one of the studios in about 1972 and said, Look, I've got something I want you to know about. I'd prefer you didn't mention it to anybody else. But she said, I've just come from the doctor's office and I've got leukemia. Well...what do you say? What does that mean? Well, she said they're going to give me some pills for treatment. As a matter of fact, she described one of the pills being a derivative from mustard gas, which was used in World War One. And she said, I really don't know. Because she looked fine. She looked great. She said, I probably won't see my grandchildren. And she was then about 37-38 years old. And I was absolutely flabbergasted. First of all, that she would tell me about it and, you know, meant that she had some trust in the way I would deal with it. And the fact that it was there was beyond belief. Dreadful. And from there on, she seemed to be prepared to forget it. Because she took it up and off we went and did the show. And I don't think she ever mentioned that again.

VOICE 2: Barbara -- for those who listening, who don't know -- did die in 1992. She had 20 more years. And happily at least, she didn't see her grandchild.

VOICE 1: She did.

CH: Former, As It Happens, hosts Harry Brown and Mary Lou Finlay speaking about Barbara Frum's leukemia diagnosis. Barbara from died on March 26, 1992. She was 54. Last year as part of our 50th anniversary celebrations, her son David Frum -- now a senior editor at The Atlantic -- joined Carol in the As It Happens studio and offered these insights into her illness.

SOUNDCLIP

DF: One of the key things to keep in mind — this is something I did not know exactly at the time that occurred — she got the diagnosis of her illness in 1974, so three years into the program. And she lived for 17 more years. But she did not get a diagnosis of you have 17 years to live. She got a diagnosis you have two years to live eight times. And so even though my sister and I were unaware for some time of that news, the weight of it was there.

CO: But we didn't know. I mean I didn't know. Many people in the CBC didn't know until well into her sickness. She hid it so well. She was very private. Her energy never flagged. We never saw this.

DF: Her energy was amazing. She did other things too. I mean she's involved in art collection, and gardening, and philanthropic work, and she raised children, and she had a marriage, and she was amazing. She would crash at the end of the day. It would just be like you know like going off the energy cliff. She would just be wiped out. She would not be able to continue. And her weekends were very, very calm. But yeah, it was a heavy, heavy presence.

CH: Barbara signed off as the co-host of As It Happens on May 20th, 1981. There was no fanfare, not even a mention of her departure. Here's her co-host -- another AIH luminary, the late Al Maitland, explaining why.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: During her nine years at As It Happens, Barbara said hello and goodbye to some 20,000 interview guests. It's one of the sad irony is that when she left As It Happens, she didn't get to say a proper goodbye. Her last day on the job was May 20th, 1981. The next morning, the CBC was shut down by a strike. Then she went on summer vacation. Then she accepted the offer to work at the Journal. She and her husband came to my house to tell me about her new job. So I wouldn't hear it from someone else or read it in the paper. We talked a little and cried a little. And gave each other a hug. There's no one like her. Not then, not now. And because so much of her is still with us, we probably never will say that goodbye. Not really.

CH: That was Al Maitland speaking on As It Happens, the day Barbara Frum died in 1992. And here's his co-host, Michael Enright, speaking that same night.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: She carried the burden of the cancer in her blood for 18 years. Never talking about it except to her closest friends, never appearing to be in any sense physically vulnerable. Frum was a better journalist than most of us simply because she was a good person. She knew what was right and she knew what was wrong. She operated her journalism and her life from a body of cherished and well honed beliefs. In an age when many journalists don't know what they believe, Frum stood out. She came to the attention of most of us in her nine years as host of As It Happens here in this studio. Her partner and friend for most of that time was my partner and friend, Al Maitland. In that time, she changed the character of the radio interview forever. We all do now, what she started then.

CH: As a journalist and host, Barbara Frum set the standard at As It Happens. By the time of her departure, the show had gone from a two hour live program rolled out across the country over six hours to the one you hear today: a 90 minute broadcast that usually stays the same across all time zones. At least one thing remained in play, though: the theme. Does this music ring a bell? It's a rarely aired melancholy rendition of Moe Koffman's 'Curried Soul' the theme it took a while for As It Happens to settle on. And we've toyed with different versions of that theme over the years, some more earnest than others.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Across the country and around the world through the CBC Radio Network and shortwave. This is As It Happens.

VOICE 2: One, two, three, four.

[Music]

VOICE 1: It's all yours.

BARBARA FRUM: [Laughs] I'm Barbara Frum.

VOICE 1: You sure are. I knew you'd come back to me sooner or later. Isn't that wonderful?How do you like the new theme music we set up for you?

BARBARA FRUM: This isn't going to be permanent I hope.

VOICE 1: Oh, it could be. It could.

VOICE 1: World on short wave. This is As It Happens.

[Music]

VOICE 1: Hello, I'm Elizabeth Gray.

VOICE 2: Good evening. I'm Alan Maitland. This is As It Happens.

[Music]

VOICE 1: Tonight...

CH: After much Curried Soul searching throughout the 80s and early 90s, As It Happens, eventually reverted to Moe Koffman's original 1969 recording, which incidentally you hear opening episodes of As It Happened and for good reason. Here's Barbara Budd, whose tenure as host began in 1993, asking original host Harry Brown about the theme's origins. His reply prompts a discussion from 80s hosts Michael Enright, Elizabeth Gray and Dennis Trudeau about the changes that occurred during that decade.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Well, I remember when we started with Moe Koffman theme.

VOICE 2: When did that come in?

VOICE 1: At the beginning.

VOICE 2: Right at the beginning.

VOICE 1: Yes. And continue for quite a long time. When it changed.

VOICE 2: They tampered. Yeah.

VOICE 1: Oh, wow.

VOICE 3: That was when we were there.

VOICE 4: It has been changed a couple of times.

VOICE 3: They should not change it.

VOICE 1: If you go back to the original, it's a beautiful piece of music. Moe Koffman was an incredibly talented musician.

CH: And so we did go back to the original for 20 years...until 2013, when with some trepidation As it Happens debuted a remixed Curried Soul 2.0 by Montreal based musician, Socalled.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music]

CH: Right before we premiered that theme, we called up Moe's widow, Gisele Koffman. And our current host Carol Off asked Ms. Koffman what she thought when we proposed a new version of Curried Soul.

SOUNDCLIP

GISELE KOFFMAN: I was kind of shocked and upset.

CO: Have you changed at all in you're thinking about this plan? What?

GISELE KOFFMAN: Oh, definitely. When I heard the new one. "Oh, wow. This was wonderful." It's unbelievable. Moe is still there and he framed it wonderfully. I love it.

CO: What would Moe think of this change, do you think?

GISELE KOFFMAN: Well, I think when he would have gotten the message that he wanted to change it, he probably would have said, okay I'm sitting down and rewriting it. That's what I think he would have said. He was very honored to have his music played every night.

CO: And you think his spirit comes through in the new song?

GISELE KOFFMAN: Definitely. Yeah.

CO: What do you think he would think of the new version of the song?

GISELE KOFFMAN: I think he would approve of it the way Josh wrote it, and acknowledge his talent.

CO: Well, we hope he would have it. We need his blessings through you.

GISELE KOFFMAN: Okay. I think the CBC was wonderful in how to find -- this was amazing.

CH: Josh is, of course, Josh Dolgin, also known as Socalled, who we rang up right after Gisele.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Now, we just heard his Gisele Koffman say that you did a wonderful job on this arrangement.

JOSH DOLGIN: Really?

CO: Is that a relief to hear?

JOSH DOLGIN: Woah! More than you can imagine.

CO: What's it going to be like for you to turn on As It Happens on CBC and hear your version of Curried Soul played at the beginning of the show?

JOSH DOLGIN: Honestly, it's probably the greatest honor I've ever been been given as a Canadian artist. So yeah, that's a good start.

CH: And that remix will remain our theme for some time to come. But if we were to switch it up again, we'd probably go with this version. Which won our AIH 50th anniversary theme song challenge. And we're going to close with that rendition of our opening as reimagined by Maximilian and Theodore Aoki of Hamilton, Ontario, who adopted it as a duet for cellos.

[Music]

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December 18, 2019 Episode Transcript

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