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The AIH Transcript for November 29, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Daemon Fairless

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

DAEMON FAIRLESS: Good evening, I'm Daemon Fairless. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

DF: Tonight:

CO: On a knife edge. For hours today, London was in the grip of panic, as police tried to subdue a man who'd stabbed several people — and when it was over, three people were dead, including the suspect.

DF: Hold it right there. After she was arrested for not holding the handrail of a Quebec escalator, our guest sued — and today the Supreme Court declared her the hands-down winner.

CO: Checks and imbalances. Months after Nova Scotia imposed a moratorium on "street checks", Halifax Police Chief Dan Kinsella finally apologizes for a practice that disproportionately affected people of colour.

DF: An outside chance. For the first time in three years, the main airport in Yemen is open — restoring some hope to those who need to leave for life-saving medical treatment.

CO: Her life is now a more open book. A feature interview with Maria Campbell — whose harrowing memoir "Halfbreed" has had key text restored for the first time since its publication, 40 years ago.

DF: And... she's not exactly a marginal figure. But she did scribble in the margins of a centuries-old translation of a Roman manuscript — and when our guest identified that handwriting, he realized the translator was Queen Elizabeth the First.

DF: As It Happens, the Friday edition. Radio that keeps its ear to the crowned.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: London Bridge attack, Halifax police checks, Queen handwriting

London Bridge attack

Guest: Rob Underwood

DF: Witnesses said it looked like a scuffle had broken out on the London Bridge. But the reality was far more serious. Pedestrians, and police, were trying to subdue a man who had just stabbed several people. Two of those victims died. Three others were injured. Video footage shows several passers-by restraining a man on the bridge, and one person retrieving a large knife from the attacker. Police then shot and killed the attacker at close range. Police are calling it a terrorist incident — and say the attacker was wearing a fake explosive vest. Here's what London Mayor Sadiq Khan said to reporters shortly after the attack.

SOUNDCLIP

SADIQ KHAN: This afternoon is a reminder why we are the greatest city in the world. I'm in awe of the bravery of these ordinary Londoners. And it's just worth us reflecting. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight. They ran towards this dangerous man with a huge knife — who'd just been responsible for the serious injury to many people. It appears he had a suicide vest on him. Then they realized that it was a hoax, and they apprehended him. They stopped him. Somebody took the life of this suspect. And I want to say thank you to them. And on behalf of Londoners, I want to thank them. But also, it's a reminder that we live amongst citizens and individuals who are just amazing people — not least the police — who also, you know, run towards the suspect. And because of their fantastic response — aided and abetted by members of the public — this man didn’t cause further damage.

DF: Shockwaves of the attack were sent through nearby Borough Market, a short walk away from the London Bridge. That's where Rob Underwood and his wife were eating lunch when the attack happened. We reached him in London.

CO: Rob, at what point did you realize something was going seriously wrong?

ROB UNDERWOOD: Yeah, well, we decided we got a day out in London planned. And we decided to go into Borough Market — which is very near London Bridge — for a bite to eat. We sat down, we were eating, and there was a helicopter overhead throughout the meal. And I guess we thought then that something was amiss. We finished our meal, got up, we were just about to leave, and it was evident that somebody had shouted there was something going on. And everybody was diving for cover. The place was packed. It's a very popular eating place in London. And we just dived on the floor, and we got out of the way. We didn't know what was happening. Thinking back, it was a sort of a sound of a firecracker sound, but we didn't really still know what that was. We just stayed on the floor for two or three minutes — quite scary.

CO: So when you hit the floor, did someone say get down? Was this an instinct, or was this knowledge?

RU: You know when you’re in an eating area and it's packed with people, and suddenly everybody is running in every direction? Clearly, somebody had heard something. Something had been said. There was an alert. There was an alarm raised, and we were on the floor. So we just got down there. We didn't know what was happening. And, you know, with everything so fresh in your mind about what's happened in London, we just followed everybody else really. So we just really waited and we didn't know what was happening.

CO: How long were you down on the floor?

RU: A couple of minutes. Looked up, you didn't really want to move too much really because you didn't know what was happening. We did get up eventually when we thought of the danger — whatever apparent danger — had passed. And then again, people were running again a few minutes later. There was panic, and we just got out of Borough Market.

CO: What was the scene? Were there are a lot of people there? Were they responding?

RU: To be honest, everybody had tried to get away and so sought refuge. It was amazing. One minute you'd been sitting there in a very, very busy eating area. Borough Market is under a sort of a railway arch under London Bridge. And the next minute, it was almost empty. People were just diving for cover under tables and everywhere. And there were armed police saying, you know, just get out, really.

CO: So the police were saying get out? Just get out of the market?

RU: Yeah, yeah, it was very scary. I mean, thinking back now from when was it, two o'clock? You think back, and you just realize it was scary.

CO: I understand there was a young girl who had been separated from her parents that you found?

RU: Yeah, she was with us. You know, clearly, you’re sort of going to the nearest place really. And we found ourselves with this girl next to us. And she was a bit concerned. I think she was from France… America, sorry. But we understand that she was reunited okay with her parents. So that was okay.

CO: So when you decided then you had to run, you had to get out. Did you know which direction to go?

RU: Well, you know what? Not really, to be honest. I’m not that familiar with London. But you’re near the River Thames. We just saw routes away along near London Bridge Underground Station, and we're out in a street. We saw other people, and we thought, yeah, let's head this way. And then, as I say, we came across more police, and they immediately put a cordon up when we were the right side of that area. We've actually gone away from the area over Tower Bridge — which is an iconic bridge in London — and you can see two bridges along. You can still see onto London Bridge, all the red London double-decker buses and the traffic that was there when the incident happened this afternoon. It's all still there, and you can see the blue police flashing lights. It's obviously still very much an area that is sealed off.

CO: And there's now video footage of a man — apparently just another pedestrian — disarming the attacker — who had a knife. And the police then after the nice knife is gone, the police fire at the man on the ground at very close range. What do you make of that scene when you realize that was just a short distance away from you during your meal?

RU: Well, you know, it's frightening, isn't it? I mean, you know, this is the age we're living in now. And you cannot feel you're ever too far away from something like this happening. Sadly, in a place like London, it does seem to be an area that is targeted. And, yeah, we've just been in and had a drink in a local public house not far away, and we've been watching the BBC news over here of that footage — which you've seen as well over in Canada. And, yeah, it's a frightening situation, and a thought that we could have been walking over there, you know? So there but for the grace of God, you're pleased that, you know, you've not been in that situation as we've seen on the television footage.

CO: Of course, you were in Borough Market — where back in June 2017, after there had been a ramming, that some men had rammed into the people on the bridge, on London Bridge, and stabbing them, came into the Borough Market stabbing people. Eight people killed in that attack. So already, people in the Borough Market have that memory. Was anyone referring to that in your time there?

RU: Well, you know, we were walking round London earlier on. We went by St. Paul's Cathedral, and I was commenting to my wife as we walked over one of the bridges, and then walked back over, and you notice all the security measures that have been taken since the incident you've just referred to there. And we'd only just been talking about that, you know, minutes before. But I'm sure, you know, it was going through people's minds that, you know, those vivid memories which still remain. I'm sure it's always very in the forefront of their minds that they've always got to be mindful that something like this is just around the corner, as sadly we've seen today.

CO: And it's interesting and tragic that people are so quick to know what to do because they've gone through it before.

RU: Well, yeah. You know, as we've seen on the television news now, there are reports that it's being classed as an act of terrorism. You know, people won't stand for it. And London is a great place to be. And, you know, going around this evening here, people still drinking in pubs, they're talking, their lives are going on as normal, and that's how it's got to be.

CO: And you and your wife are okay?

RU: Yeah, we're fine. I'm telling you, you do feel shaken up. And it's only when you're in a situation like this that you realize just how scary it can be. When we're lying on the floor, and you don't know what's going on around, you know, as you quite rightly just referred to those incidents a few years ago, you know, it flashes back in your mind. And you just hope that everything's going to be okay. And you're gonna get out of there right. And, thankfully, we did, but at the time, very scary indeed.

CO: Rob, I'm so glad that you and your wife are safe. And I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

RU: You know what? Thank you very much as well.

CO: Good night.

RU: Thank you.

DF: Rob Underwood was in Borough Market today, when the London Bridge attack happened. For more on this story, go to: www.cbc.ca/news.

[Music: Sombre]

Bill Peters out

DF: He was behind the bench. Now, he'll be on the couch. Today, Calgary Flames head coach Bill Peters resigned, days after allegations that he had uttered a racist slur against a player in the changeroom. On Monday, former player Akim Aliu tweeted that the coach had, quote, "dropped the N bomb several times" toward him in his rookie year, when Mr. Peters was coaching juniors. Today, Flames GM Brad Treliving announced Mr. Peters' resignation.

SOUNDCLIP

BRAD TRELIVING: And where were we aware of any type of these allegations? Categorically, no. The questions we raised were we know, and what do we know? We knew nothing of any nature that we’ve been dealing with the last couple of days. In terms of due diligence, you do do diligence. We do a full scrub on any hire. And I did speak to previous employers of Bill. No matter how difficult the situation go through, I think you have to learn from it. There's lessons to be learned here. And certainly, I think in all of us, there's probably things in the past that, you know, people may not be aware of. You try to do as best a job as you possibly can. We'll continue to make sure we dig as hard as we can for anybody else.

REPORTER: Was there any indication that this was something Bill was hiding, or that he just didn't imagine it being relevant or popping up ten years later?

BT: No, no.

DF: That's Brad Treliving, general manager of the Calgary Flames. Mr. Treliving said a probe into the allegations is done, but didn't elaborate on the findings. Tomorrow, the team will host their first home game since the controversy began.

[Music: Ambient]

Halifax police checks

Guest: Dan Kinsella

00:12:15 - SPEAKER: M1

DF: Nova Scotia's provincial government issued a moratorium on street checks by police months ago — after a criminologists' report found they discriminated against people of colour. And last month, the Nova Scotia Human Rights Commission released an independent legal opinion deeming street checks not just discriminatory, but illegal. But it took until today for Halifax Regional Police to apologize for its past use of the practice. And many black Haligonians remain unconvinced that change is really at hand. Dan Kinsella is the Chief of Police in Halifax. That's where we reached him today.

CO: Chief Kinsella your city's civilian police oversight body asked your police force to apologize for street checks way back in April. Why is it only happening now?

DAN KINSELLA: Well, I took on the role of chief of police in Halifax in July. And I came from another jurisdiction. So when I came here, I came with the intention of making sure that I had an opportunity to meet with, interact, and gather insight and advice from the community on their experiences. And today was the day that we decided that it was appropriate to deliver the apology.

CO: And what did you hear from them that made you feel that this was something that had to happen? That you had to apologize for this — for what you call racial profiling?

DK: Well, I think they, you know, shared a number of incidents of inequities, negative and hurtful experiences, and it was important that, you know, together we find a way that we can move forward. And one of the ways — and it's not certainly the only piece of this — is an apology. And that's how we came to the point that we are at today.

CO: But it's not just the anecdotal evidence, is it? I mean there is a report by a criminologist that was released back in March that said that black people in Halifax are six times more likely to be stopped by police. And that's why your force was asked to apologize back then. They said at the time, that they weren't going to. That the acting police chief, Robin McNeil, said that it was a very complex and sensitive issue to apologize. And that the street checks didn't represent all the data — it was just a partial portrait. So what has changed then? What have you learned? Because we knew much of this then, why is it different now?

DK: Well, I certainly can't speak to what happened before July 1^st — that's the day that I started here as the chief. One of the things that is important to remember is street checks are only part of the overall issue. We're talking about decades of mistreatment that, you know, needed to be acknowledged. And I think the robust action plan that I talked about today certainly will help us move forward with the appropriate input, and hopefully begin to build trust.

CO: Well, when you say it's been acknowledged, and you know that the African Nova Scotian Decade for People of African Descent — this coalition — they called your statement and apology for a practice that has not been eradicated. So what is it that you're doing that's going to move this from being an acknowledgement to a change in practice, a change in the way you treat black people in Halifax?

DK: Well, I think we're moving to change in action. So the comprehensive framework that was laid out today, I think will you know be filled in as we move forward.

CO: In what way? Just give us some details of that?

DK: Well, it will be filled in as we move forward through the action plan. And one of the mechanisms is the advisory that I announced today — the advisory to the chief. That will be made up of community members. Even the training that I talked about today will not only have the community involved in design, but also involved in delivery.

CO: All right. One thing that could be changed — according to black Haligonians — is that not only were these street checks happening, were people being stopped at this rate, but data was collected and recorded, so that these people had information on files about them just simply for having been walking in the street or driving their car, they get stopped. What will you do with that data? They want to see that data scrubbed.

DK: Right. So, you know, I work obviously closely with the Board of Police Commissioners. And we have recommendations within the Wortley Report that the data be, you know, have the information take out of it — so there's no identifiers in it. And that the data be kept indefinitely for potential research purposes down the road. So we do have a database right now. Since the moratorium, we have actually deactivated the mechanism within our records management system that allows for the capturing of the data. And then in December of 2020, that data actually will be de-identified, and will only be kept for purposes of research in the future. But there will be no identifiers on it.

CO: And that's something, I think, that people had wanted because they want the data because it's proof of the discrimination. It shows that pattern. But they don't want their names anymore. So that's all going to be gone then?

DK: That's correct.

CO: I want to play for you a clip from a woman, Shantaya Crawley, reacting to your apology today. And she's recalling an incident earlier this year, when she was street checked coming out of a liquor store in Halifax. Here’s Shantaya Crawley.

SOUNDCLIP

SHANTAYA CRAWLEY: I felt like out of all the people that were there coming out of the NSLC, I was the only one that was picked on. And, unfortunately, I was the only black minority, so I felt it was a little bear because, you know, I am still a Canadian citizen. [slight chuckle] I still have children to raise. I'm just like everybody else. And I don't feel like I can trust the police in this city. [slight breaking] I don't feel like they're really there to help people when they say that they are. And it's terrifying.

CO: You can hear the emotion in her voice. And she — as you well know — is far from alone. What do you say to Ms. Crawley?

DK: Well, I would like to speak to her obviously, and get the details of the interaction. And I will follow up on it personally myself. What has to happen with any stop is the interaction has to be legitimate, and it has to be bias-free. And from what she's saying there, it doesn't sound like that was her experience. So I would like to have an opportunity to follow up on her concerns.

CO: You know that in Halifax, that people — the black community — believes and has evidence that racism is very deep in the fabric of this city. So what are you going to do? How are you going to move your police force forward, so they're sensitive to what people have gone through in that society?

DK: Well, certainly we have to you know continue to monitor and be mindful. And there's training. There is education. And if members of the Halifax Regional Police are not acting appropriately, the course after education and training is discipline. Discipline it's about changing behaviour, and that's going to be my job to make sure that if that is occurring, that we have to change that behaviour.

CO: We'll leave it there. Chief Kinsella, thank you.

DK: Okay. Thank you.

DF: Dan Kinsella is Chief of the Halifax Regional Police. We reached him today in Halifax.

[Music: Piano]

Queen Handwriting

Guest: John-Mark Philo

DF: A few years ago, literary historian John-Mark Philo began working with a manuscript at Lambeth Palace's library in England. It's 42 pages long — a translation of an old Roman text. But no one knew who had translated it. However, the longer Mr. Philo worked with it, the more clues he started to see suggesting a royal connection. One clue: odd notes in the margin written in weird shorthand. Now, in a new paper in the journal Review of English Studies, the researcher says the translator was none other than Queen Elizabeth the First. We reached John-Mark Philo in Florence.

CO: John-Mark, when you first saw this manuscript some years ago, would you have believed if someone told you that Queen Elizabeth the First was the translator?

JOHN-MARK PHILO: I think it was always a possibility. Although, it's an outlying possibility that one of the one of the few references to someone who has undertaken a translation of an extract from Tacitus's Annalesis is actually the Queen. We've always known about that reference. So the Queen was a possibility. But certainly, initially, no, no, I wasn't expecting this.

CO: And what has convinced you that Queen Elizabeth the First actually was the translator?

JMP: Well, there were a couple of clues to begin with. So the paper stocks, for instance. It’s a very specific kind of paper that is being used by the Elizabethan Secretariat in this period. And it’s actually a kind of paper that the Queen uses in her private correspondence and in her other translations. But the real clincher in all of this is the handwriting. Queen Elizabeth's handwriting is idiosyncratic — and that is putting mildly. It's extremely distinctive. I mean, she she's almost developing a new alphabet for herself in some cases. I think in terms of saving time, so the “M” and the “N” become horizontal lines. Her “E” becomes a small crescent. She even incorporates the Greek letter “phi”. So we have “ph” for the “fu” sound. She uses the Greek symbol Phi.

CO: So I guess if you you're an absolute monarchy, you have that luxury that other scribes would not have.

JMP: No, exactly. So if you're a professional scribe, you're trained, you're employed, to make your handwriting as clear and legible as possible. For the Queen, comprehension is somebody else's problem. As far as she's concerned, you know, other people can catch up. And there's actually there's a lovely examples of her secretary sending fair copies of her autograph letters that she's sending to people saying just in case you come you can decipher her Majesty's hand, we've included this fair copy as well.

CO: Now, when I looked at the images that have been published of this 42-page manuscript, it looks fairly nice. It's well-written, but there are these annotations. What part of it did she actually write herself?

JMP: Yes, and that's a really interesting point because some of Elizabeth's translations they survive in autograph, written out entirely in her handwriting. Others survive in fair copy — like the Plutarch translation at the British Library. And because she actually she asks her scribes to copy a fair copy of her translation after she's written a rough draft. And that's what's happening here. She's given the translation over to a scribe. They've written a very elegant copy. And then she's going through it. Well, she's editing it, I think, corrections and additions in her own distinctive handwriting.

CO: Now, this is from a book from a Roman historian. What was it about these passages that were important to her? What did she like about them, do you think?

JMP: Well, Elizabeth, she chose to translate the first book of Tacitus's Annales. Now, in that first book, you find a great deal of this book is devoted to describing revolution and rebellion amongst the soldiers in Germany. And further to that, how to quell revolt, how to deal with rebellion, and to pacify a troubled situation. Now, of course, Elizabeth has already had her own experience of revolt and rebellion. And then in 1593, we starting that in Nine Years’ War — the Tyrone Rebellion — over an island. So I think her choice of subject matter there is no accident, I think. I think she is focusing on a moment that speaks to her own historical moment.

CO: And it's clear from this that she was very well educated, isn't it?

JMP: Absolutely. She was fluent in French, Italian, extremely competent in Latin. She is also familiar with the Greek, and Spanish. But obviously, she doesn't use Spanish all too often. But yes, yes, she's very learned, indeed.

CO: And how would she have worked? Because if it was written by a scribe in this very beautiful, fluid handwriting, and then she annotated it, how did she work? What would be the relationship she would have?

JMP: That's a very interesting question. So sometimes, for example, in the case of her translation, parts of that are written in her own autograph, but other parts, she's actually dictating to a scribe. She seems to be reading Latin — almost sight-reading a Latin text, and then dictating her translation to be immediately copied down by a scribe. So for the secretaries around her, I mean, they're in a very privileged position around the Queen, and very close and in the very literal sense of being physically close to the Queen, as she's translating these.

CO: It must be quite extraordinary for you as an historian to discover something like this, to realize that there's very few degrees of separation between you and Elizabeth the First [slight chuckle] — because you're working with something that she actually worked on. So how is how does that feel for you as a historian to have discovered this?

JMP: It's a wonderful feeling. And I think beyond anything else, it's just wonderful to think about her sitting down with these texts and working through them. I think that's the thought I keep coming back to is gosh, Elizabeth did sit down with this text at one point, just as we can today. [laughing] And she's also facing the same the same difficulties that Tacitus’s Latin still poses today — and grappling with those lexical nuances. But yes, yes, it's a wonderful feeling.

CO: Lovely. John-Mark, it's great to talk to you. Thank you.

JMP: No, thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

JMP: Bye now.

DF: John-Mark Philo is a research fellow at the Harvard Center for Italian Renaissance Studies. We reached him in Florence. If you'd like to see some pictures of this manuscript, it's on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Indie rock]

Part two: Handrail case, Yemen airport

Handrail case

Guest: Bela Kosoian

DF: When Bela Kosoian stepped on an escalator in Laval, Quebec, she couldn't have known how long and grueling a ride it would be. But ten years later, Ms. Kosoian has finally come out on top. Today, in a unanimous ruling, the Supreme Court of Canada decided that a police officer was in the wrong when he arrested Ms. Kosoian, after she refused to hold the handrail of an escalator. At the time, she was fined a total of 420 dollars. Today, the court awarded her 20-thousand dollars in damages. We reached Bela Kosoian in Montreal.

CO: Bella, how did you react when you heard that the Supreme Court had ruled in your favour?

BELA KOSOIAN: I was very happy because I was surrounded by people who were with me all ten years. I did not read the ruling. I did not know, but I’m told it was a great ruling — and it's going to help all Canadians who are going to be in my situation to fight against abuse of power.

CO: The judges determined that you were entitled to refuse to obey an unlawful order. And you, therefore, committed no fault. That was what they unanimously agreed to. So let's just go back to where this begins. This is ten years that you have been going through this legally. And it starts with a very simple thing that you did. Can you describe what you did?

BK: It was 17th of May, 2009, I was going to a university because I had exams. So I was standing on the escalator, and thinking about my exams. And the policemen, he was going downstairs, he was told something. I didn't not understand that he was speaking to me. So he told me again something. To this day, I don't remember his words. And I assumed that he wanted for me to hold the handrail. So when I told him it's my right to hold a handrail not to hold it.

CO: Basically, he ordered you to hold the handrail, you said no. Why didn't you want to hold the handrail?

BK: I already had money in my hands. So as a reasonable person, I know that I'm not in a dangerous situation. So if a reasonable policeman wants for me to be safe, a reasonable policeman would stand with me, and would go down together.

CO: And you know your rights. That is what you said. And so what did the police do next?

BK: Next, he told me documents, but I told him what I have done for documents because as a pedestrian, they have to ask your name and family name, that’s all. So they grabbed me and they took me. I thought okay, they're going to speak with me, you know? I'm going to school; I'm thinking about my exams. I have priorities. So when they opened the door, and I saw these bars and cages, you know like in a cell?

CO: There were jail cells inside, right.

BK: There was a cell, so I do not know about it. I stepped into a room, and I told I want to call a lawyer. And that moment, they started to push me, you know? And took my handbag, and I handcuffed me.

CO: Okay, wait a second, so you basically, they'd asked for your documents, they wanted your I.D. You refused.

BK: I did not refuse. I told what I have done. They had to give me a reason what I have done.

CO: And then they took me into this room.

BK: Yes. And I went in a room, and I told them I want to call to a lawyer. I want to speak with a lawyer. And this provoked big things.

CO: And they just handcuffed you in front or behind your back?

BK: They removed my bag, and my hands were handcuffed behind.

CO: Okay. So this has escalated, hasn't it? And what is it that you were disobeying? How were you to know that you must hold this handrail?

BK: Pictogram, it's written caution. It’s written passengers only. It shows a person with a child on the escalator. That's all. And it says that hold the handrail, attend children, avoid sides. It doesn't create an obligation, it's yellow, it's a caution.

CO: So there's no evidence that this is a warning you're going to be arrested if you don't hold the handrail [trying not to laugh]. There’s nothing at all, right?

BK: No, nothing.

CO: And so they gave you two tickets. One for disobeying the pictogram…

BK: Hundred dollars, and 320 dollars.

CO: For obstructing the work of an inspector, okay.

BK: Yes, a peace officer, or something. I don't have pictograms in front of me, so.

CO: Okay, so then begins ten years trying to get, well, first of all, get these fines struck. So eventually, you were able to get them to drop the fines, right?

BK: It took three years for them. I was dragged through justice by them. They knew that there is no law. They wanted my 420 dollars, and I didn't break any law.

CO: And so you won that. But then you what else did you want? You sued them for what happened, right?

BK: Yes. I wasn't successful from beginning, no. I couldn't read till end because judges were siding with the police, you see. And they discredit my name. They made me sound like I'm unstable, you know, uncivilized. And if you read Court of Appeal, one judge of saying that Madame thinks Madame knows law. Another judge was using motor vehicle act, but I was pedestrian, you see, discrepancies.

CO: The Quebec Court of Appeals said you were the author of your own misery, and that you were responsible. Police were just doing their job, right?

BK: Yeah, what job? To force illegal order?

CO: Now, but this was a very unusual case to be before the Supreme Court. Were you surprised when the when the Supreme Court justices agreed to hear your case?

BK: Actually, I believe the Supreme Court because I had to fight teen years. And because it's in the public interests, it's a legal order, can you imagine if every tourist comes to Canada, and is going to be arrested for not holding a handrail? Can you imagine what is going to create? So it means we don't have rights.

CO: But, you know, you weren't going to pay the fine. What is it that drove you to keep fighting this for ten years? Lots of people would give it up. They’d say this is too much stress on me. What drove you?

BK: Because I have principles. I have principles. And I believe in the rule of law. I believe in justice. People created the rule of law for a purpose, for free democratic society to function. If everybody is going to abuse, you see what's happening.

CO: But what effect did this have on you?

BK: It was mentally, morally, financially, I was ruined. I will tell you when you know that you believe that you didn't break any laws, what you are going to do? You're going to give up, or you are going to fight.

CO: Now that the case is concluded all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, will you be able to move on?

BK: Yes, of course, I have to move on. And this is going to save my children, your children, and future generation. It's going to save Canadian society. Rule of law prevails.

CO: Bella, thanks for speaking with us.

BK: You're welcome. Thank you. Bye-bye.

DF: That's Bela Kosoian, who was arrested in 2009 after refusing to hold the handrail of an escalator. Ms. Kosoian challenged that arrest — and today, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in her favour, granting her 20-thousand dollars in damages. We reached her in Montreal.

[Music: Jazz]

FOA: Zofia Cisowski obit

DF: She spoke out for her son — because he could not. You probably remember the story of Robert Dziekanski. He died in 2007, after he was tasered by RCMP officers at Vancouver International Airport. The 40-year-old had travelled from Poland to British Columbia to live with his mother, Zofia Cisowski. After her son's death, Ms. Cisowski spoke out about the case — and pushed for justice. Zofia Cisowski died earlier this month while visiting Poland. She was 73 years old. In an interview with Radio NL in Kamloops, a lawyer that worked with Ms. Cisowski described her as, quote: "[a] very courageous woman with a sense of humour, but almost always, a grieving mother. It was quite apparent, and it didn't change over the years." Unquote. Back in April of 2010, Zofia Cisowski was on this program. The RCMP had just formally apologized to her, and a confidential settlement had been reached. Here's part of her conversation with Carol, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: You think about Robert a lot, do you?

ZOFIA CISOWSKI: Yes, every second day. Not second, every day. And also, I cry. When I cry, right away, I have to take, right away, the pills. And the pills are from a psychiatrist. I continue to see my psychiatrist. And they help me a little bit. And if I have a very bad day, if I start from morning like cry, then I know I will have a bad day, then I take pills. But not every day.

CO: It's hard, isn't it? You don't want to forget your son at the same time.

ZC: Yes.

CO: But the memory is so difficult.

ZC: Yes. I have lots of picture everywhere. Beautiful because I saw my son last alive on 2007, May, June, and July. We spent three almost months together — everyday [crying]. Then I saw him alive 2007, in 2007, also in October, he died. He was tasered and died five times. That makes me so sick. Sometimes, I heard his voice because he called me Mama when they start tasering him. And I heard his word, he called me for her, for help. And he was so happy to see RCMP. And He called for polica, polica — that means police, police. And I have in my head all the time these words. And he was happy seeing them. His face, I saw in the tape, big screen in a public inquiry we had. And, but, Mama.

DF: From our archives, that was Zofia Cisowski — the mother of Robert Dziekanski — speaking with Carol back in April of 2010. Ms. Cisowski died after suffering from a stroke. She was 73 years old.

[Music: Sombre]

Yemen airport

Guest: Mohamed Abdi

DF: It's a glimmer of hope in a country that has been torn apart by war. This week, the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen announced that the country's main airport will be reopened for the first time in three years. Now, Yemenis who require medical attention are allowed to fly out of the capital Sanaa to other countries, where they can receive life-saving treatment. The United Nations estimates that some 20-thousand people were unable to access life-saving healthcare after Saudi Arabia imposed a no-fly zone over rebel territory. Mohamed Abdi is the Norwegian Refugee Council's Country Director in Yemen. We reached him in Sanaa.

CO: Mr. Abdi, how soon can people who need medical treatment fly out of Sanaa Airport?

MOHAMED ABDI: From what we have been told, this will be in the next few days perhaps. Preparations are under way to ensure that everything is in place to allow people to fly from Sanaa.

CO: And what does that mean for people in Yemen to be able to do that? What kinds of emergencies are going to be dealt with now that they can get out on those flights?

MA: As you know, the medical facilities in Yemen are not to the required standards to deal with certain kind of ailments. Such patients cannot get specialist treatment that they will require here in Yemen. So this is a welcomed reprieve for many thousands of people who require urgent medical treatment, and have not been able to get this treatment in the last three or so years since the airport was closed.

CO: The Saudis and the Saudi-led coalition — which is supported by the United States — they've always maintained that their target is not the civilian population. So what does that say to you that they would not allow sick and injured people to get out of the city — get out of the country — in order to get medical treatment?

MA: The Saudi-led coalition maintain that they have not been targeting civilians, but the reality is that when you close such important infrastructure, the people that will be affected by the closure of the airport will be predominantly the civilians.

CO: And why do you believe that the Saudi-led coalition has now allowed for this, or will allow for this two-way exchange with medicine coming in, and people in need of medical treatment going out?

MA: I believe, I think, this is a good gesture by Saudi-led coalition. To be honest, you know, this is coming very late. Because lots of people, from the information that we, have over 30,000 people might have died due to lack of specialized medical treatment.

CO: So 30,000 people might have died from illnesses or injuries that they could have been treated for? Those lives could have been saved if the airport had been open? We understand that there's tens of thousands who are waiting to get out, who need to get out. But those are staggering numbers. Is there stories, do you have examples, so we can understand who are these people who need this treatment? Can you give us any examples?

MA: A few months ago, that was back in January, we talked to a 47-year-old teacher by the name of Abdu. Abdu was suffering from a medical condition, precisely, we were told he was suffering from a liver disease that required medical treatment outside Yemen. And because of the airport closure, Abdu could not travel for this treatment outside Yemen. In June of this year, we were told Abdu succumbed to the illness. And it's simply heartbreaking to know that many people like Abdu — who could have got treatments outside of Yemen if the airport was opened have succumbed to illnesses that could have been treated.

CO: So you’re saying that this is a goodwill gesture on the part of the Saudis. This is a bit of a thaw in this war — maybe a good sign. What else needs to be done? I mean, you know that the devastation of what's happened in Yemen with 24-million people in need of humanitarian assistance. Ten-million on the brink of starvation. Children with cholera. What has to happen at this point to even begin to turn this humanitarian crises around?

MA: As humanitarians, we think that what is needed is, you know, a lasting peace deal which will end this conflict that has caused suffering for millions of people.

CO: Given that there was also reports that some of the Houthi prisoners — some of the fighters that Saudi Arabia has had in detention — they have been released. And they were part of what happened at the airport. Are you hopeful that there's a break now that possibly, this war might be almost over.

MA: To be honest, first of all, we are not allowed to comment a lot on the political situation. But I think the release of the prisoners, the reopening of the Sanaa airport, these are all good signs — good gestures. And perhaps, this is, you know, light at the end of the tunnel.

CO: And I know it has been a very long, dark tunnel that you have been waiting to see light at the end of. Mr. Abdi, I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

MA: Thank you for having me on your program.

DF: Mohamed Abdi is the Norwegian Refugee Council's Country Director in Yemen. We reached him in Sanaa.

[Music: Horns!]

GO player quits

DF: In terms of complexity, the ancient game of "Go" has been compared to playing four games of chess simultaneously. So the people who master "Go" are deeply intense. One such master is Lee Se-Dol — not long ago, the top-ranked "Go" player on Earth — an 18-time world champion. So he was a natural choice to battle an artificial intelligence system called AlphaGo in 2016. "Go" typically takes humans decades to truly understand. Which is why it was so shocking when AlphaGo defeated Mr. Lee, four games to one. The human was apologetic, and badly shaken. "I felt kind of powerless," he said. "I have come to question the classical beliefs a little bit, so I have more study to do." Three years later, Lee Se-Dol is no longer questioning or studying. He has resigned from Korea's major "Go" association. He told a South Korean news agency, quote, "With the debut of AI in 'Go' games, I've realized that I'm not at the top, even if I become the Number One through frantic efforts. Even if I become the Number One, there is an entity that cannot be defeated." A 36-year-old man is quitting a game he's spent 24 years mastering — two-thirds of his life — because he knows there's "an entity" that can beat him. Now that's intensity. I mean, because he can't figure out AlphaGo, a major "Go" figure figures he'll go? Go figure.

[Music: Christmas-like]

Part three: Feature: Halfbreed author Maria Campbell

Feature: Halfbreed author Maria Campbell

Guest: Maria Campbell

DF: In 1973, Maria Campbell published her seminal memoir Halfbreed. At the time, she was just 33 years old. But it doesn't read like the memoir of a 33-year-old. It reads like the memoir of someone who's lived a long life — and not an easy one. But as difficult a read as it sometimes is, it was supposed to have been more difficult still. And a warning: some listeners may find these details disturbing. Last year, we told you that two pages of Ms. Campbell's original manuscript were excised before its publication — two pages that recounted her sexual assault at the hands of an RCMP officer when she was just a teenager. Now, those pages have been restored, and a complete version of Halfbreed has been reissued by its publisher, McClelland and Stewart. Maria Campbell sat down with Carol in our Toronto studio to talk about the new edition of the book — and much more.

CO: Maria Campbell, welcome to the As It Happens studio.

MARIA CAMPBELL: Thank you.

CO: This new version — complete version now — of your memoir, what is it like for you to see that now restored?

MC: I feel like it's finished now — because it never felt finished for me. I always felt like there was a part, well, there was a part of it that was missing, and that it didn't tell the complete story. And with that piece missing, it was like I just ended up on the street because there was nothing else to do — which is really not the case.

CO: How did those pages — how did that part of the book — get excised, do you know?

MC: Well, Jack promised me…

CO: Jack McClelland of McClelland and Stewart.

MC: Yeah. You know, he came to me and said that they had to take it out. And I said no, if it was coming out, then I wouldn't publish. So he told me that that it would be left there. And I believed that it was there until I got the box of books we get. You know, I got six copies of the book when it was released. And that was the first place I looked, and it was pulled. And I called him, and he said he couldn't do it. That he couldn't, you know, that they would have stopped everything.

CO: Well, we've seen correspondence now that he said he believed that the RCMP would seek an injunction if you described the rape you suffered at the hands of an officer. And then the book will be pulled altogether. And I guess he didn't want to put you through that.

MC: And he also told me that I would probably get hauled through courts, and it would be all over the paper. And I was angry with him at the time, but I understood, you know, later why he did it. But for me, I felt like I had been really betrayed. And that the whole story wasn’t there. Jack was a good teacher. He told me that the book would be a bestseller.

CO: And it was.

MC: And it was. He also told me that it was a way for me to be able to tell the country of Indigenous people. And, you know, because really that was why I was publishing it. And that, you know, anything else I did after that was entirely up to me. That would open the door for me. And it did to that.

CO: But, at the same time, the correspondence suggests that he believes that if you had published this part, or he had put that in, the book never would have made it. Because in those days, you could get an injunction — as he believed the police would.

MC: And he believed that. I know that he believed that.

CO: Because he believed you. He said in the letters, I believe her. I don't have any doubt that she was raped by these police.

MC: I never doubted that he believed me. I just felt that he must have known that he was going to take it out when he told me he was leaving it in. And I trusted him.

CO: The pages were discovered, and we've interviewed Deanna Reder — who is one of the researchers who are trying to dig through the archives, the McClelland and Stewart archives, because they knew these pages had been there. You thought that there's no way that the original manuscript with those pages still existed.

MC: I was really naïve. I didn't understand about hanging onto your paper, or anything else. And so when I finished, Diane Woodman was my was my editor. And when I had all this paper, and I said, what do I do with this now? And she said well, we can just throw it all in the garbage. So we put it in the garbage bin behind her house, so all of my stuff was gone. So then I asked Jack for a copy of the manuscript. So he sent me a copy, but it was the copy without pages. I never saw the red marks or anything until I saw Deanna’s copy.

CO: And Deanna, and her research partner Alex Shield, when they describe how they found them, Alex was in the archives, and she phones Deanna, and she whispers, and says I found them. I found the pages. They're here with a big red X through them. What was that like for you to see those pages?

MC: I felt very relieved. But it was also, you know, kind of like digging up… [breaking down] Excuse me.

CO: No, it's fine.

MC: That happened, you know, a long, long time ago. And after a couple of years after the book was published, I just let it go. And that was what I did. I let it go. So when I saw it again. And it wasn't the rape, and, you know, all of that stuff. It was my kids that went through a lot when the book first came out. And my father didn't know about it until I told him before the book came out — because I wanted him to know. And I brought the manuscript to him. So I didn't, you know, all of that was all opened up again. So it was so hard.

CO: Because we're talking about 45 years after you published those pages. And it's in your voice. The thing that's most striking about this book, Halfbreed, is the youthfulness of your voice, and describing what had happened to you, and your grandmother being with you, and being told it there's no point in pursuing this, they will never believe a halfbreed in court.

MC: And it's not that they wouldn't have believed. It just wasn't important. But that wasn't what was hard for me when I saw it again last year. It was just the memory of telling my father, you know, exposing my family to goodness knows what — because there was a lot of fear back then when the book was published. When we thought that it was going to be left in, you know? But even today, it's, you know, I don't know what can happen. Indigenous people have great fear of the police. It's just scary.

CO: But you wanted this book, you wanted those pages restored. Because without those pages, so much doesn't make sense, what happened to you, it's key.

MC: And it wasn't even just me. I mean, I'm not the only person that's had this happen to. It's happened to lots of women. And, in fact, I think about a week or two after they found those missing pages. I remember turning the national news on, and there was a young girl that had been interrogated by the RCMP, and she had been raped, or she had been sexually molested. That was last fall or last summer. And so it's never stopped. And once this came out, I ended up with, you know, I was contacted by so many women that said well, this happened to us too. It happened to me as well. And all at the same thing. There was this fear of not talking about it. You can't talk about it because the fear is there. It's always been there. There's been a fear of the police.

CO: What does it tell you, having those pages restored, what do you think that explains about what happened to you in your life?

MC: I think what it explains is that maybe life would have been different for me if that hadn't happened. You know, I certainly believe it would have been different. There's always a reason why people end up in in that kind of situation. And I was, you know, I was like any 14-year-old kid. I had lots of dreams, and you know poverty doesn't kill your dreams.

CO: But rape kills your childhood, doesn't it?

MC: It kills your childhood. It kills everything — certainly destroyed mine. And it destroyed my brother’s.

CO: You're one brother saw this happen.

MC: Yeah.

CO: Little kid.

MC: Yeah.

CO: And you couldn't tell your father because…

MC: My father probably would have killed somebody. [chuckling] That was too scary. That was even more scary to think of that.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens, and I am in studio with Maria Campbell. She is a Metis author, a playwright, an elder. And her book Halfbreed has just had its full text restored — more than four decades after it was published. And, Maria, I just want to say that, I mean, there is a lot of trauma in this what we're talking about. The rape and in the book has been restored. But what strikes me about this book is that there is a lot of joy. When you're a girl, when you're growing up, the descriptions of the parties, and the dances, of your family life, of what it was like with your mom. There are laugh out loud moments. People have to know that this is a complete, rich story that has this turn in it. What do you want people to know about your child hood as a Metis?

MC: Well, that's what I want them to know. And I think that's been the hardest throughout my, you know, since the book was published is that so many people think that I had such a hard life. You know, we were poor, but our people are really strong. They're very joyful people. Well, we laugh through everything. We sing and dance through everything. And, you know, when I look at my own community, there are all of the stuff that happened in that community and to our people, we have some amazing people that have come out of there.

CO: And the strong sense of family and society and just we are here, we are rooted no matter what. And you're dealing with a double whammy of the colonial laws that restricted your lives, plus the fact that as Indigenous people, in the book this is 1970s, you call them “Indians” and “Metis” or “Halfbreeds”. But that the Indigenous people don't regard the Metis as being one of them either. So you're dealing with this double whammy all the time, aren't you?

MC: Yeah. That's always been our story, or part of our history. There's a word in our language which is to do with family and kinship, but it's a much bigger word than that. And that certainly was something that really held us together — and still does. You know, our people still are in contact with each other all the time. We visit people. And our communities are, you know, scattered. But even with all of the, you know, people being displaced so many times, being chased out so many times, it didn't matter where we went, it was like people moved in groups, and then you'd all be together. So while it may be as hard as it was being in that place, it was also our strength.

CO: My favorite character is Cheechum — and your Cheecum. Can you tell us who she is, and why she was so important to you?

MC: She was my great grandmother, and I was her first great grandchild. I'm fluent in my language and in my culture because of her insistence that whatever she could pass on to me, she did. She was very old, but she was also very young. She was very politically astute. She would be, you know, today, we would call her an activist — somebody who really believed in change. No matter what happened, you always work toward change. You don't take this, you know, without fighting back. She was also really independent. And so that's something that's really strong in our family is that independence. As long as we’ve got each other, we don't need anything else.

CO: But she's also this tremendous bridge into history, isn't she? Because you're growing up in the 1940s and ‘50s…

MC: And she was a part of the history.

CO: Of Louis Riel’s era.

MC: Of Louis Riel’s era.

CO: So you start the book describing this is where it comes from, and the spirit of rebellion, the spirit of resistance. And Cheechum is the continuation, so you bring that in, that history into the present day. This is where it comes from, don't you?

MC: And she is also a part of the signing of Treaty Six. that was her family. Her family was the chief that signed the Treaty, so she came from both sides of those places. And she treasured them. She always said we can we can live in both in our Metis place and our Cree place. And that was hard when I was young, but it's not that difficult anymore. I think once you understand about government policies, and how colonisation works to divide people, then, you know, it's not difficult anymore because then you know it's not people just being cruel.

CO: It's policies.

MC: Policies that forces that kind of thing.

CO: Poverty, everything you're describing is rooted in that, I mean, the deck was stacked against you. I mean, whatever you try to do, you always are turning up confronting this. And we cover the story of what's happening with the apprehension of children, of Indigenous children, in Saskatchewan. Well, throughout Canada, but Saskatchewan it's still going on.

MC: And Manitoba.

CO: And the children are still being taken from their families. And what was so striking about reading this book is for you to describe when you, as a teenager who are trying to keep your family together after your mother has died, and they come for your brothers and sisters. You did everything you could to try and keep that from happening. And there is a moment that station wagon, the faces in the window as they drove away, and the trauma of that. What does that tell us about the constant fear that Indigenous people were living under.

MC: Well, it’s the same fear that people live under every day today. We have so many children in care that's frightening. You know, like what's going to happen? At least my generation and my siblings had a memory of a grounded place. But children, you know, there's so much trauma and so much just pain all over. People are really broken. Their souls are hurting. And how do you fix that? And children grow up in that, and there's generations of it. You know, we have lots of amazing, wonderful things that happen, you know? I can't afford to go out and buy all the books that are written by Indigenous people today. You know, where at one time, I could. I can't keep track of all of the young people who are graduating with PhDs, and starting to get places of authority jobs and places of authority. But for every single time that happens, it's like we've lost another hundred kids for that. It’s just huge. And what can we do, you know? How long does that have to happen? How many children do we have to give up? And how many women have to die in order for us to be able to, you know? And now, I'm talking in general about Indigenous people because when they come to pick the children up, they don't ask them for status numbers. You know, they just pick them up.

CO: You were raising children of your own, as a teenager, you were starting to have your babies. And 1950s, and you describe in Halfbreed how you came to hit rock bottom. That everything was up against you. You had you left home, ended up in Vancouver. You ended up dealing with drugs.

MC: Not very nice people [laughing]

CO: Not very nice people, in fact, frightening people. There’s several stories of people you had associated with you later knew they were in prison, or dead. And you were just a young woman, you just started your teens, or into your teens, but trying to raise kids. So what was the help? What did you need? Because obviously, you didn't get anything that you needed in order to get you through that.

MC: Well, there was nothing for women. I mean, it was hard enough for poor, non-Indigenous women. There was absolutely nothing for Indigenous women. You know, there were places for men to stay because they were run by missions, but there was nothing for women. And if you were women on the street, you know, missions were not interested in helping you. You were just a bad person. And there was no place to go.

CO: What brought you out of that?

MC: My great grandmother.

CO: Cheechum.

MC: Yeah, just me laying there one day after I'd tried to commit suicide over and over again. Just me waking up, and she's sitting with me, and she's telling me you don't have to be here. You don’t have to be here. You have choices. You can leave here. And, you know, I didn't know where to go or what to do. But I knew of somebody who had quit, and I went to see her.

CO: Quit drugs. It's heroin we're talking about.

MC: Yeah, and she helped me with it.

CO: You’re listening to As It Happens, and I have author Maria Campbell in the studio with me to talk about the republication of her remarkable book called Halfbreed. And, Maria, I'm just wondering now that this book has been restored with the pages that were missing, the crucial description of what happened to you at the hands of those Mounties, at the same time, it's now out at a time when maybe we have more context, I mean, with the Truth and Reconciliation hearings with the Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women and Girls testimonies, now, we have — I have — all kinds of knowledge that I wouldn't have had in the ‘70s if I had read this book at that time. Do you feel that that maybe just something happened here that actually worked out? That the fact that this book is now back out at a time when we really need it?

MC: Well, I don't believe that things just happen. It was just like I started writing. I never had any intentions of writing. I didn't know anything about writing. I had an old lady. She was a Quaker lady, who gave me a journal and a pen because I couldn't talk. I just couldn't speak to people about anything. And she gave it to me Monday, and said you’re going to have to get rid of some of this stuff. That's how I ended up with all of the pages. You know, I worked in radio. I did radio stuff. I, you know, produced radio. All of those things are, you know, what works — which is the best way to be able to get this information out if it's stories, or if it's in a song, if it's to get people together to do theatre. I really believe in collectives and people working together because that was how I grew up. You know, we never cut up our meat and dried it all by ourselves. It was a community event. People did it together. And so I believe in collectives, and I like working with people. I've just been in the city, and we've just finished doing a reading of a play that was a big collective. We met with other women who had been, you know, who had gone through very similar kinds of lives then. And we said okay, if we could do our own inquiry, what is the story we would want to tell, you know? I wasn't happy with the story that was going to be told. I mean, inquiries and inquiry, we have so many recommendations. All we need to do is look at those recommendations. We don't need to spend millions of dollars coming up with new ones because they're the same. There's poverty, there's violence, there's, you know, residential school. All of it, it’s the same thing over and over again. So I wasn't happy with where the inquiry was going.

CO: The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women.

MC: The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, I mean, I appreciate the work they did. I mean, you know, all of that. But it's just recommendations. And, in the end, you know, the word genocide…

CO: When they said that they used the word genocide.

MC: Yeah. And so I was frustrated. I just felt like the women who were being murdered, and the women who were on the street, women who are living in crisis, nobody was talking to them. They're the ones who are who are out there facing that every day. And there's all kinds of creative ways that you can educate people. And when you have that kind of money, you certainly should be able to come up with a few ideas when you have so many creative people around. Give people money and they'll do what they're supposed to do.

CO: So you think it was a lost opportunity to educate people about what was going on?

MC: Yeah, I believe it was. I hate to say that. But for me, changes is through arts, change is through storytelling, it's through singing songs, it's people visiting each other and talking, it's theatre, it's all of those things.

CO: The very end of Halfbreed the book when you published it in 1973, it says I believe that one day very soon people will set aside their differences and come together as one. Maybe not because we love one another, but because we will need each other to survive. And then together, we will fight our common enemies. Change will come because this time we won't give up, and there is growing evidence of that today. This is early 1970s.

MC: Yeah, and there's growing evidence. I mean, there's real visual evidence of that today, when you see all of the kids out protesting the kinds of things that are happening to the earth.

CO: So do you feel more optimistic? I mean, this is very optimistic at a time when we didn't have much reason to be optimistic. [chuckling] Now, do these words really resonate in a way they didn't?

MC: Oh yeah, they resonate. I mean, there's still lots of work to be done. And it's not just us as Indigenous people. It's all of us are going to have to work together. We got to think about our great grandchildren. Like, I never liked the word settler because it’s just so clearly us than them. But I think it's important for settlers to realize that they didn't do this. They weren't the people coming to this country looking for resources. There's always a difference. And as long as we categorize ourselves like that, we can't change — because there's either anger or guilt or whatever. The settler came here carrying the same kind of baggage, the same policies were practiced on them, you know? I always tell people, you know, people don't leave their country because they're happy. You don't leave your homeland because everything is great, and you know, oh gosh, you know 200-thousand of us or whatever are going to immigrate because everything is great at home. People don't do that. You know, I have Scottish ancestors. And when I started reading about the kinds of things that drove them out of their country, and they ended up here, I thought well, what's the difference? It was the same policies that were used on them. The same policies were used on the Irish. They're used in Africa and all of those countries. But somehow, when people end up here, and they’ve found the good life, they end up using same kinds of tools.

CO: So what gives you hope then?

MC: What gives me hope are kids — because they're not thinking like that. They're thinking about what's happening to our earth, what's happening to our land, what's happening to our water? Young people give me hope.

CO: Maria Campbell, It is extraordinary to speak with you, and to read this book. It will mean a lot to many people now that we can see it again in its entirety. And I thank you so much for coming in.

MC: Thank you

DF: Maria Campbell is the author of a number of books — including the memoir Halfbreed, which just had its text restored more than four decades after its original publication. Ms. Campbell spoke with Carol in our Toronto studio. You can read more about the restoration of Ms. Campbell's book — and listen to a reading from the author herself — on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

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November 29,2019 episode transcript

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