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The AIH Transcript for November 27, 2019

Hosts: Gillian Findlay and Daemon Fairless

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I’m Gillian Findlay, sitting in for Carol Off.

DAEMON FAIRLESS: Good evening, I'm Daemon Fairless. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

DF: Tonight:

GF: Beyak to square one. With her six-month suspension over, embattled Senator Lynn Beyak is set to return to the Red Chamber — but her colleague tells us she may not want to get too comfortable.

DF: He was out in front. Now, a prominent gay-rights activist in Haiti has died under unexplained circumstances — and the activists left behind pledge to keep fighting for equality, despite fearing for their safety.

GF: Right move, wrong guy. When Donald Trump announces a national task force on missing and murdered Indigenous women, our guest is grateful — but not sure the U.S. President is the man to lead the effort.

DF: Doctor's many, many orders. Before he can practice in Nova Scotia, an American doctor has to fill out the mandatory paperwork — and a year-and-a-half later, he's still bogged down in bureaucracy.

GF: Tricky Dick. A new doctored video shows the late Richard Nixon giving a momentous speech he never gave — it's part of a project taking a deep dive into "deepfakes".

DF: And...you ain't nothin' but a ground dog. Well, it's some kind of young canine creature, anyway, discovered frozen in the Siberian permafrost — and while some are shouting "puppy", others are crying "wolf".

DF: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that suggests you clear your desks for a surprise pup quiz.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Lynn Beyak back, Operation Lady Justice, Ice Age puppy

Lynn Beyak back

Guest: Marilou McPhedran

DF: Senator Lynn Beyak is back. After a six-month long suspension, the Senator — who was booted from the Conservative caucus last year — is back on the payroll. She's expected to return to the Red Chamber when it reconvenes next week. Senator Beyak was suspended after she refused to remove letters from her official Senate website that were condemned for being racist. The letters were sent from Canadians who were supportive of comments the Senator had made — that residential schools weren't all bad for Indigenous kids. Marilou McPhedran is an Independent Senator, and a critic of Senator Beyak's past actions. We reached her in Ottawa.

GF: Senator McPhedran, Senator Beyak has had six months to think seriously about all of this. What impact do you think that time will have had on her?

MARILOU MCPHEDRAN: What I hope is that she has really had time to understand the damage that she did, to take responsibility for it, and to comply with the conditions that were set out by the Senate Ethics Committee. If she hasn't, then she has breached a fundamental rule of self-governance of the Senate. And if she comes back and she has not complied, then the Ethics Committee is still charged with authority over this case. And the entire Senate has some responsibility to respond by looking at what the expulsion options are.

GF: Take us back to last spring, when she was actually suspended from the Senate. What did she do in your mind that warranted that suspension?

MM: Well, there's a comprehensive review that was done. Senator Lankin and others initiated a complaint to the Senate Ethics Officer — who did a very thorough review. And then made his report to the Senate Ethics Committee, and the Ethics Committee released its report just before the summer recess. That's when they set the conditions. That's when she refused to accept the conditions. And that's when she was suspended.

GF: And all of this revolved around letters that she had posted to her website. Can you remind us what those letters said?

MM: There were well over 100 letters, Gillian. And the Senate Ethics Officer found that a relatively small number of those letters had obviously racist content. There were many more letters that were highly questionable. I think it's also relevant to note that this was on a Senate website.

GF: Publicly funded.

MM: Exactly.

GF: And those letters — some of them, you know, saying very derogatory things about Indigenous peoples and communities — are still on her website. As you said last spring, when the Senate Ethics Committee did lay out a set of conditions that she would have to follow to remain a senator in good standing. And one of those conditions was to apologize to her colleagues. You were a colleague. Has she apologized to you?

MM: To the best of my knowledge, no.

GF: She was also supposed to do two other things: to attend educational programs related to racism and to do a refresher course on the rights and rules and privileges of Senators. The latter one she's apparently reportedly done. Does that satisfy you?

MM: I think that the Ethics Committee was quite generous with Senator Beyak. Thus far, as far as we know, the conditions have not all been met. And that is a blatant disregard of the self-governance of the Senate.

GF: If she were to apologize, as she is bound to by what the Ethics Committee laid out, what would you be looking for in an apology? What would satisfy you?

MM: Well, I think what would satisfy me is less of a question than what would satisfy Indigenous Senators — who were so directly undermined and attacked by the choices that Senator Beyak made. For example, Senator Mary Jane McCallum — who is herself a residential school survivor — stood in the chamber and spoke very honestly and starkly about the impact of the choices that Senator Beyak made. And that appeared to have no impact at all on Senator Beyak. It in no way changed what she said, what she did. So an apology, I mean, it's very difficult to interpret clearly the degree to which a heart is behind an apology. But I think there are words that can be said that can convey an authentic regret. But in particular, we need to listen to our Indigenous colleagues on this.

GF: So expulsion. Expulsion could be on the table. Is there an appetite to expel a Senator for this?

MM: It's never happened before, Gillian. So this is a very significant precedent that is under consideration. But I can certainly confirm that myself, Senator Lankin, a number of the Senators that have been actively engaged and concerned about this file, are fully prepared to consider expulsion if the circumstances warrant.

GF: Why do you think she has been so steadfast? I mean, she hasn't removed those letters from the website. That seems like a simple thing to do. What is driving her, do you think?

MM: My sense from speeches that she has given in the Chamber is that the choices that she's made about continuing to promote and perpetuate the racism in a number of the letters that, in fact, this is popular to a certain constituency that seems to be a constituency that is her priority. And by continuing to please that constituency, she chooses to perpetuate the practice of the racism.

GF: So basically, playing politics with racism?

MM: Or indulging, I think I would be more inclined to say. Indulging personal preferences over respecting the self-governance and the integrity of the institution of which she is a part.

GF: All right. Well, it's going to be a test of many people, isn't it?

MM: It is. And I think it's important to bear in mind that the Senate is capable of taking down those letters, Gillian. It's a Senate website.

GF: So why hasn't that happened?

MM: I don't know. It's a question that many of us have asked repeatedly.

GF: And what answers have you been given?

MM: Not really any legitimate answer. It's been left as something that is somehow within the purview of this individual Senator. And that is something with which I do not agree.

GF: All right. Senator McPhedran, we’ll watch to see what happens. Thank you so much for joining us today.

MM: Thank you for the concern, Gillian. This is really important to us as a country.

GF: Bye-bye.

MM: Bye-bye.

DF: Marilou McPhedran is an Independent Manitoba Senator. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

Operation Lady Justice

Guest: Patina Park

DF: U.S. President Donald Trump is promising action on missing and murdered Indigenous women in the United States. Yesterday, at the Oval Office, he signed an executive order, setting up a national task force to address the crisis. It's called "Operation Lady Justice" — after the famous statue of a woman, holding scales, who typically represents the idea of justice.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: With Operation Lady Justice, we will bring new hope to Native American communities across the nation. We will deliver justice for the victims, closure for the families, and safety to those in harm's way. I am going to sign this order, and it will be a great honour to be signing this order. And thank you all for being here. Thank you very much.

DF: Indigenous leaders were alongside President Trump as he announced the Task Force. But others have expressed skepticism about his true commitment to the idea of justice for Indigenous people. Patina Park is the president and CEO of the Minnesota Indian Women's Resource Center. She's also the co-chair of a state task force in Minnesota, on missing and murdered Indigenous women. We reached her today in Eau Clair, Wisconsin.

GF: Ms. Park, how much stock do you put in this new task force that Donald Trump announced yesterday?

PATINA PARK: Well, it's interesting, for sure[chuckling]. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Anytime we're raising awareness of the issue — specifically at a federal or national level — is I think a positive. I'm just hesitant in my endorsement that this task force will really accomplish anything that would be truly meaningful or actually result in what the president refers to.

GF: What is it meant to accomplish as you understand it?

PP: Well, it appears to be very focused on the criminal justice kind of element of figuring out what the numbers are. Or, you know, looking into the data collection and how things are being investigated. It's unclear how it will really prevent women from being harmed, or women and children. But the whole community, specifically, you know, given it's a very short task force.

GF: It's only two years I understand?

PP: Yeah, it terminates at two years unless the president chooses to renew it.

GF: So I hear the hesitancy in your voice. And I'm guessing that some of that is around the fact that it's Donald Trump who is actually enabling this. Not someone necessarily known for his support of the Indigenous people and communities, I think, right?

PP: Or for women, really [deep laugh].

GF: Or for women.

PP: I mean, for women broadly, and certainly for, you know, Indigenous communities, he's, you know, used racial slurs against, you know, representatives in our government.

GF: He famously referred to Elizabeth Warren as Pocahontas, didn't he?

PP: Yeah. And the way he used it was it in a form of a slur. I'm sure he really knows nothing about Pocahontas, or, you know, the fact that she was, you know, a victim of the very issue that he seems to be now interested in.

GF: So why is he doing this then, do you think?

PP: You know, I do think that nationally there's been a lot more attention raised about the issue. And the statistics are horrible. And I can see anybody wanting to do something to help that. I mean, you're almost evil if you don’t, right? [laughing] But to truly understand the issue of MMIW, it really requires a very sophisticated, educated, informed, deep analysis of all of the issues that lead to the vulnerability of women and of our families at large. And that is you know a 500-year dig into history. To really address the issue at a federal level, there's going to have to be a lot of introspective analysis on, you know, when I support oil and extraction that creates man camps, which we know lead to high levels of violence and incidents.

GF: So I think it's commonly accepted that there are countless cases of women who have gone missing or been killed in the United States. And most of them barely get any attention. But there is one that has, and that's the case of Savanna LaFontaine-Greywind — a woman from North Dakota who was killed in 2017. Give me a sense of what her story is?

PP: You know, her story was incredibly tragic. She was a young woman in a committed relationship. Her partner was working out of town, right? He wasn't around. And her neighbours, the female lured her into her apartment from what we have learned, and with a promise, I believe of baby clothes, if I remember correctly. And murdered her and stole the baby. And then her boyfriend helped her dump the body in the river.

GF: Oh my goodness.

PP: And even when the police went to ask, you know, about Savanna, these individuals said, well, you know, she's gone all the time — which is, you know, directly related to her being Native. Like, the Native woman, well, she disappears. It's no big deal. And that's the phenomena we see often. But when a very blond, blue-eyed woman goes missing, it seems like the entire city or community rallies. And so I think any way we can increase knowledge about how prevalent and problematic it is will help make other people pay attention. Because there's just not enough of us remaining anymore, and so even when we scream, people don't hear.

GF: You are the co-chair of a task force in Minnesota at the state level on missing and murdered Indigenous women. If you had to give President Trump advice on what this national effort could be, or should be, what would you say?

PP: I would hope that there would be a lot of education. Like, where we're taking time to make sure that the task force members would have a deeper understanding of the elements leading to the problem. Also, you know, knowing that data collection is very important. But, you know, also looking at what are the systems and the activities that the federal government itself does that lead to this vulnerability of our families to be exploited or to be kidnapped or, you know, just to be vulnerable to those people who would commit harm. The other problem is to give the tribes back jurisdiction so that we don't have this jurisdictional quagmire where no one knows who should be doing it. Nobody does. More importantly, note that this task force at the federal level is not acknowledging the urban or off-reservation tribal people. And we make up 70 per cent of tribal people. So if they focus only on reservation and tribal government kind of work, they're really only impacting around 30 per cent of the Native Americans across the United States are impacted by this issue.

GF: Well, I think you're yon a road that's familiar to many people in this country. And we'll watch and see what happens. But thanks so much for talking to us today.

PP: Yeah. Thank you so much.

GF: Bye-bye.

PP: Bye-bye.

DF: Patina Park is the president and CEO of the Minnesota Indian Women's Resource Center. She's also the co-chair of a state task force in Minnesota, on missing and murdered Indigenous women. She was in Eau Clair, Wisconsin.

[Music: Sombre]

FOA: Gerald Regan obit

DF: In the '70s and '80s, Gerald Regan was a fixture of Nova Scotia and federal politics. In 1995, he became a fixture of the national conversation for other reasons — when he went to trial on eight charges of sexual offenses. He was acquitted. And, after appeals that went to the Supreme Court, prosecutors eventually abandoned their efforts — saying it would be too costly and too difficult to get complainants to testify so long after the fact. Yesterday, Gerald Regan died, at 91. Long before those criminal cases, Mr. Regan spent his time as Nova Scotia premier engaged in the familiar national debate about regional economic disparity: how Ottawa should balance the needs of the so-called "have" and "have-not" provinces. In 1974, the federal government introduced a budget that made it clear that it wanted a higher proportion of oil revenues, which would mean less money for Alberta. That's when Gerald Regan spoke with "As It Happens" host Barbara Frum. Here's some of that conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

GERALD REGAN: We see the feds as the heralds of the peace. If we’re to hold this country together, then you just can't have unlimited wealth in one province, and have a situation that all of the other provinces there are made much poorer as a consequence of having to pay artificially high so-called world prices for oil. You could reach a point, you know? If the feds hadn't intervened and claimed some of the revenue to be redistributed across Canada when the price of world oil jumped so high, you could have a situation that there'd be no such thing as taxes in Alberta at all. You could have a situation where every citizen might get a bonus each year with a consequence that half the people in Canada would move into Alberta. That hardly would be good for Canada.

BARBRA FRUM: Are you going to keep feeling that way when you make a huge oil strike in Nova Scotia?

GR: Well, we don't have a huge one in sight at the moment. But I would like to think that I would. And let me let me give you an example that there have been people who've been broad enough Canadians to recognize other than the narrow political interests when they were provincial premiers. And I think that the comparison of the contrast can be made between Premier Robarts of Ontario — who incidentally was not of my political persuasion — and the attitude of Premier Lougheed. When Ontario was by far the most prosperous province in this country, Premier Robarts was not afraid to take a position in favour of equalization by the national government. That is the idea of the national government taking tax dollars from Ontario residents and distributing them to Saskatchewan and to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and Newfoundland through equalization payments. Premier Lougheed, on the other hand, has appeared to me to take a position that every cent that can possibly be squeezed out of other Canadians as a result of the Arab conspiracy that led to an artificial high world price should be squeezed out for the enrichment of Alberta. I can't see where he's right. And I can't see where the federal people are wrong.

DF: That was former Nova Scotia premier Gerald Regan, speaking with Barbara Frum, in 1974. Gerald Regan died Tuesday. He was 91.

[Music: Lullaby]

Ice Age puppy

Guest: Love Dalen

DF: Love Dalen is an evolutionary geneticist in Sweden. Last year, his work took him to eastern Siberia. While there, he was called to look at something local tusk-hunters had found in the permafrost. It was an incredibly well-preserved specimen from the Ice Age. It's a pup, of some sort. But Mr. Dalen and his colleagues haven't been able to figure out yet whether it's a dog or a wolf. And they say that's an important question that needs answering. Mr. Dalen is with the Stockholm Centre for Paleogenetics. We reached him in Stockholm.

GF: Professor Dale, take us back to when you were in Siberia last year. What did you think when you first saw this?

LOVE DALEN: Well, I think the initial thought was that it was incredibly well-preserved. But, at the same time, you know that there are wolves in Siberia today. So you wouldn't really know for sure of whether it was really old or whether it was only 10 or 20 years old?

GF: And how did you determine how old it was?

LD: So we collected a small sample from one of the ribs that we used to radiocarbon dating. Based on the radiocarbon dating, the sample or the specimen was roughly 18,000 years old.

GF: Eighteen thousand years old. Wow! Now, there have been pictures of this animal shared online. But for those who won't have seen them yet, just give me a little more detail. What does it look like?

LD: Well, it looks like a small puppy — either of a dog or a wolf. It is extremely well-preserved in the sense that it has perfectly preserved fur and paws and ears and it has whiskers and a black nose and a pink gum between the teeth and so on. So it really looked like a specimen that might have died just a few years ago and been put in the freezer.

GF: And it is a pup, right?

LD: It is a pup. We don't know if it's a wolf or a dog, but it's clearly either of those two.

GF: And why is that an important question?

LD: Well, I think there's a huge interest in understanding the origin of both modern wolves, but perhaps especially so the origin of dogs. And this is still a question that we haven't been able to completely resolve. And this specimen comes from a time when we think of everything is happening. So around this time is when modern wolves start appearing in the fossil record. It's also when dogs start to appear.

GF: And describe that process a little bit more. Because at some point, dogs were domesticated wolves, right?

LD: Exactly, at some point in time, some sort of wolf evolved into dogs. They were domesticated. We don't really know how exactly how this happened, we don't know exactly when, and we don't know exactly where. But we do know that dogs are descended from a wolf population.

GF: So are you hoping that this particular specimen will be able to shed some light on that?

LD: This specimen might be a really important piece of the puzzle. Both because it is from a time period where we have few samples, and the time period that we know likely is important to understand the origin of dogs.

GF: One of your colleagues has been quoted as saying that given the amount of data that you've been able to retrieve already, that he would have expected that you would be able to say whether it was a dog or a wolf. But that's not been the case. Is that surprising to you?

LD: It is. At first glance, it is surprising. What we have done with this specimen is that we sequenced its genome. It's not a great genome, but it's a pretty decent quality of the genome. And normally, if you do this on modern dogs or a modern wolf, it would be super easy to say whether it's a dog or a wolf. They are genetically highly distinct. But we still — even though we have this kind of pretty good genome — we can't say. And we think maybe this means that this specimen comes from the time period right around the time when dogs and wolves diverged. Or it might even be kind of a missing link or originate from a population that was the common ancestor of dogs and wolves.

GF: So what is the plan now then?

LD: Well, obviously, we want to try to resolve this. Is it a dog, an early dog, or is it an early modern wolf? So what we are doing right now is that we're trying to go from having a pretty good decent genome into a high-quality really great genome. And that means that we will sequence the DNA much, much more than we have at present — probably between five and ten times more than we currently have. And we hope that this will then give us such a high quality genome that we will be able to resolve this issue.

GF: Do you have a gut instinct?

LD: Oh, if I had to bet money I would bet money, I would bet on that it actually is an early wolf. But I think it's pretty touch-and-go either way.

GF: Would that be a disappointment if it turned out to be a wolf as opposed to a dog? Would that be more exciting?

LD: Well, perhaps a lot of people interested in this would be disappointed. I think a lot of people want it to be an early dog. But, at the same time, there is a bit of a mystery where modern day wolves come from as well. So I think either way, this will be really interesting — either to understand the origin of the modern wolves or to understand the origin of dogs.

GF: Well, even if it is a wolf, like all good puppies, it's been given a name. What are you calling it?

LD: Well, we asked our Russian colleagues what they thought we should name it given that it is a male specimen. We can see that in the DNA. And they suggested to name it “Dogor” — which is a Yakutsian word that means friend. But is, of course, also wordplay by the Russians on the question of whether it's a dog or something else.

GF: [laughing] We know where they're putting their money.

LD: Exactly.

GF: Professor, thanks so much for telling us about it today.

LD: My pleasure.

GF: Bye-bye.

LD: Bye.

DF: Love Dalen is a professor of evolutionary genetics in Stockholm, Sweden. That's where we reached him. If you'd like to see some pictures of the animal he and his colleagues are studying, we've put some on our website — that's: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Jeudy Charlot death, deepfake exhibit

Jeudy Charlot death

Guest: Neish McLean

DF: Haiti's queer community is grieving today — after the death of the nation's most prominent gay rights activist. Jeudy Charlot was found dead in his home near Port-Au-Prince on Monday. Authorities haven't released details about how he died. But his family is asking for a full investigation — and so are the U.S. and French embassies in Haiti. Mr. Charlot's death is considered a blow to LGBTQ activism in the Caribbean. Neish McLean is the Caribbean Program Officer of OutRight Action International. He worked closely with Jeudy Charlot. We reached Mr. McLean in Kingston, Jamaica.

GF: Mr. McLean, first of all, my condolences about the death of your friend. When you first heard that Jeudy Charlot had been found dead, what did you think?

NEISH MCLEAN: When we found out, and when the news came that he was found dead, it was quite a shock. Actually, I had just had a communication with Jeudy just last week about training as OutRight and Jeudy as a partnership for gender-based violence projects in Haiti. And one of our partners. So it was it was quite a bit to take in in the moment. And I'm still quite shook up about the situation as we're trying to come to terms with his loss, and the circumstances surrounding his death.

GF: What do you know about those circumstances at this point?

NM: So at this time, it's a bit of speculation. What we do know is that he was found in bed unresponsive by a relative. We are still trying to put together the pieces of his movements the evening before. And we are very much unclear. The circumstances are quite suspicious, considering the fact that he would have been receiving anonymous threats weeks leading up to his death. So in addition to that, we do also know that members of another organization that he works closely with that are some of their members were actually assaulted a few weeks ago. And one of the leaders of that organization had to flee Haiti to the Dominican Republic. So we are very much aware of the news coming forth of the circumstances leading up to his death that they are quite difficult times facing LGBTQ people in Haiti with regards to their safety.

GF: I want to ask you about that. But, first of all, you say he was found in bed at home. Were there signs that he had died in a violent way?

NM: I don't have as much details around that. The speculation that I see in the media leads to question that it was malicious intent in terms of his death. But I can't say much further beyond that.

GF: Right. And authorities also have not confirmed that his death had anything to do with his activism. But is it the case that activism can be dangerous in Haiti?

NM: Yes, activism indeed can be — and is — dangerous in Haiti. As a result of Charlot's death, we wanted to reach out to our partners in Haiti to find out what was the situation on the ground. And we received a video that showed members being attacked by groups of men, by a mob. And so we also know previous to that incident, in the end of October, the head was hospitalized along with two other women who received fractures. And they were attacked because of their perceived sexual orientation and gender identity.

GF: And is it your impression or your experience that this is getting worse in Haiti?

NM: Well, considering the fact that these incidents occurred within the space of one month, and previous to that, we were not aware of outward attacks in recent months. So it does appear that the incidents are escalating.

GF: You worked closely, as you say, with Mr. Charlot. Why did he do this work — especially given the danger?

NM: So Charlot is a quite a fierce activist, a very brave one. And he did this work because he believed that LGBTQ people in Haiti should be treated with respect and dignity. And as a leader of an organization, he decided to stay. Actually, one of the persons who got attacked weeks ago asked him to leave with her while she was fleeing. And he made the decision to stay because he believed in the work that he was doing. And he knew that there had to be somebody to do it. And he chose to take on that task. It’s a monumental task in Haiti considering the political climate and the social unrest that often happens in Haiti. It’s a difficult condition to work in.

GF: Did he ever talk about the danger?

NM: No, we never spoke about that. Indeed, actually, I believe in the work that we do even for me as an activist and a face of an organization as well here in Jamaica, we often find that activists, we don't focus so much on the danger. But we know that not all of us can leave our countries to flee for safety in other places.

GF: You mentioned the political situation. What is the situation that you say is making this kind of work even more dangerous today?

NM: So Haiti has quite a bit of unrest. There is a lack of political will in some instances to advance LGBTQI rights culture. And the religious fundamentalists play a large role in that. As LGBTQ activists seek visibility and are being visible in the work that they are doing, it often means that there will be backlash from the general population. And that's part of the challenge that we face. And Haiti, as well, in their position in the region, often actually have difficulties beyond what the other Caribbean territories experience. They can't travel freely. They require visas just to even come to countries like Jamaica or Trinidad and Tobago. So their context is a little bit different. In addition to the fact that they are French-speaking country, and that limits sometimes their ability to communicate and share with the rest of the Caribbean countries.

GF: What have you heard today from the organizations on the ground in Haiti about their concerns about the future in light of this?

NM: Well, I've been actually in a conversation up to moments ago with armed activists on the ground. We communicate and we are trying to resource them as best as possible. And support them in their efforts. What I do know is that the activists are requesting security measures for their office. So some activists are requesting support in terms of leaving Haiti at this time, or at least temporarily relocation because there is a lot of attention that's been placed on them. Activists are trying to stay underground as well. So it is a very challenging, challenging time in Haiti.

GF: Mr. McLean, thank you so much for telling us about your friend and about the situation today.

NM: We will continue to do this work because what Jeudy believed in is a movement that needs opportunity and space to be visible. And for governments to respond and to treat LGBTQ people with dignity and respect.

GF: Thank you.

DF: Neish McLean is the Caribbean Program Officer of OutRight Action International. We reached him in Kingston, Jamaica. And we’ve posted more on this story on the As It Happens website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Sombre]

Georges Laraque

DF: It started with allegations that recently-fired Toronto Maple Leafs coach Mike Babcock made a rookie rank his fellow players — and then shared those rankings with his team. That tactic surprised people who don't know Mr. Babcock. But it didn't surprise Akim Aliu. Ten years ago, Mr. Aliu played on a minor team led by current Calgary Flames head coach, Bill Peters — a one-time protégé of Mike Babcock's. And on Monday, Mr. Aliu tweeted, quote, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree." Unquote. Mr. Aliu alleges that Bill Peters used the N-word against him "several times" while he was playing for the Rockford Ice Hogs. Since then, two other players have corroborated his account. The Calgary Flames are investigating, and Bill Peters is sitting out tonight's game. And former NHLer Georges Laraque says action needs to be taken as soon as possible. Earlier today, he spoke with the CBC's Andrew Nichols about his initial reaction to Mr. Aliu's allegations.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGES LARAQUE: To be honest, I didn't believe them. I was like there's no way a coach would have won this far. You know, a coach that needs the players the players. You need the players’ support to win games, right? The players, we play for the coach, we believe in a coach. Our coach is our leader. So at first it's like there's no way. It came from a guy that's frustrated, that didn't make it. And the timing of everything to me was just too surreal.

ANDREW NICHOLS: And then you changed your mind. Tell me about that?

GL: Yeah. Because when I saw that it was supported, I was like oh my god, a coach that aspired to coach in the NHL would throw the N-word to a player in a dressing room in front of players like nothing's happened. And right away, I was like oaky, that guy should not be coaching in the NHL. I don't care that it was ten years ago. The NHL should not want to have a coach like this in their league. They're working so hard to grow the game to say that hockey is where everyone. The Flames have to fire him.

AN: It took a decade for Aliu to come forward with these allegations. What do you think that says about hockey culture that Aliu didn't feel comfortable coming forward until now?

GL: Well, if you want to compare this to the #MeToo movement, it's the same thing. Some woman, it took them 20 years to come forward. And the reason why is because back then, you know, woman they were not in a position of power. You know, the employer — people that were rich — you know, they're afraid to lose their job. They were afraid that people wouldn't believe them. So same thing with Aliu, he didn't play in the NHL, you know? He was in the east coast. So he thought that maybe people wouldn’t have believed him. He felt that people wouldn't have cared because when it happened, nobody did anything. Nothing happened. And he got buried in the minors. Now, we live in an era that people could express themselves. They know that now there's an impact. You saw what happened with the minor situation with Babcock, and it's like well, maybe this thing that's been holding me up inside that I couldn’t express myself now maybe people are going to care. And I could finally release what was inside of me for so long. Because of this, what just happened, I’m pretty sure that there's other stories that are going to come out from other players. And it's a start of something to fix things in the future because no child or even adult should go through something like this.

DF: Georges Laraque is a black hockey player who spent 13 seasons in the NHL. He spoke with CBC's Andrew Nichols earlier today.

[Music: Indie rock]

Deepfake exhibit

Guest: Francesca Panetta

DF: It's been 50 years since the Apollo 11 moon landing mission ended. And none who were alive then will ever forget that tragic day. Oh, you remember things working out differently? Well, to refresh your memory, here's former president Richard Nixon, addressing the nation after that disastrous event in 1969.

SOUNDCLIP

RICHARD NIXON: Good evening, my fellow Americans, fate has ordained that the men who went to the moon to explore in peace will stay on the moon to rest in peace.

DF: You heard the man. The men who went to the moon, stayed there. That was the sound of him saying it, so it must be true. Of course, it isn't. The speech is real. It was written in case the moon landing went awry. But Nixon never gave it. The recording is what's called a "deepfake." That's when people use artificial intelligence to create fake audio and video that is convincingly real — and dangerous. This deepfake, however, is part of a new installation that aims to educate people about deepfakes. It's called "In Event of Moon Disaster," and was created by the MIT Center for Advanced Virtuality. Francesca Panetta co-directed the installation. We reached her in Amsterdam, where it just opened.

GF: Ms. Panetta, this installation sounds fascinating, but also a little bit terrifying. How terrified should we be?

FRANCESCA PANETTA: Well, deepfake technology is concerning. And that is one of the reasons that we made this piece. It's an artwork, but it's also an education piece around deepfake technologies and the harms of misinformation. And the danger is not only in kind of political and current-day context in which they can be used, but also retrospectively as well — potentially kind of rewriting history.

GF: I'll get to some of that in a moment, but I want to start with how you did it. We've just heard a little bit of the fake Richard Nixon delivering his speech. We also have a recording of the voice actor you hired reading the original speech. Take a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

ACTOR AS NIXON: Good evening, my fellow Americans, fate has ordained that the men who went to the moon to explore in peace will stay on the moon to rest in peace.

GF: How did you make that voice sound like Richard Nixon?

FP: Yeah, well, we worked with two to A.I. companies and to make this piece. So we had about three hours of Richard Nixon reading speeches — mainly ones about Vietnam, actually. And we cut those into one to three second clips — tiny little clips — and thousands of them. And we sat in the studio, and we would play a one second clip, and then he would repeat it. And then we would record it, and it would be sent into this database. So imagine for every clip of Nixon, there's a corresponding one of our actor reading that same clip. And what it does is it learns the actor's voice, and then anything that the actor then says comes out in Nixon's voice. So it's not that the actor's voice itself turns into Richard Nixon's voice. It's that we've made an A.I. that can say anything in Nixon's voice.

GF: Unbelievable! And so, of course, that's only half the story. How did you make it look like Richard Nixon was delivering this speech?

FP: From our point of view, that was slightly less painful. We filmed Lewis D Wheeler reading the speech. We did that a number of times. We sent that over to Omer in Canny AI over in Tel Aviv. And for visuals, we had to pick exactly what we wanted to superimpose our video onto. So what you're seeing is actually Nixon's resignation speech. We looked at a number of different Nixon speeches. And his resignation speech had the most emotion in the face and in the delivery. And so even though there would be different words, we felt that visually that corresponded with this speech in event of moon disaster where we thought he probably would look similarly moved. And so we then really carefully constructed this sound to match the visuals in Ableton — our software editing programs. So it was really fiddly and took several months.

GF: Wow! Now, you haven't released this whole concoction publicly. So we haven't had the advantage of seeing it. But how convincing is it, do you think?

FP: I think it's pretty convincing. It's not just the one speech, but the full video goes from the astronauts taking off, going into space, and then something going wrong along the way, and then kind of hurtling down to the moon. And actually what we're trying to show is a range of different types of misinformation. A number of academics and experts we spoke to said that we shouldn't really just think about deepfakes. The whole landscape of misinformation is really important to consider. So, you know, cheapfakes to deepfakes. So everything from editing techniques, slowing things down, reversing things, using things out of context, to deepkfake techniques. And the deepfake part I think is convincing. I mean, anecdotally, while I've been here in Amsterdam, I've had everything from people saying to me oh, so Nixon did actually record that contingency speech just in case? [both giggle] And I said no, no.

GF: I'm thinking of all the conspiracy theorists out there — who, of course, for years have believed that the moon landing itself was a fake. Is that partly why you chose to do this?

FP: Yeah, it’s one of the reasons. There are a number of reasons we pick the subject matter. One is because of that long history. For 40 years, there have been various different conspiracy theories that have been using those different types of misinformation from writing books to, you know, fake documentaries. So what we're trying to show is this is like the latest technique that could be used to kind of take that conspiracy theory, you know, one step further. But also because we're interested in how deepfakes can be used in a variety of different contexts, and to try and raise public awareness to show that they need to think of how they're going to encounter this type of misinformation that it might not just be a comedy piece that they see come through on their social media feed. But it could be something more surprising.

GF: Or something perhaps more consequential.

FP: Absolutely. And with the 2020 elections coming up in the states, and the British elections coming up in a few weeks, politics is really vulnerable to this type of misinformation.

GF: So as a last point then, what does one look out for?

FP: [chuckle] So jaw lines are a real give away. Looking for shadows that seem a bit strange because you're kind of superimposing shadows from different places. Often, the words and the visuals can be out of sync. So there are a few things to look out for.

GF: But it is getting better, isn't it?

FP: It is getting better.

GF: I mean, it’s harder and harder to do distinguish the real from the fake.

FP: Absolutely. And the computer scientists say that you know within six to 12 months, it's gonna be really, really hard. So I think also having an awareness about where your media is coming from, so looking at what that source is. And also, common sense, thinking just how likely is this. To ask people to think carefully about what they're seeing.

GF: Ms. Panetta, thanks so much for telling us about it today.

FP: It's been a pleasure. Thanks very much.

GF: Bye-bye.

DF: Francesca Panetta is the co-director of the new installation — "In Event of Moon Disaster." She’s in Amsterdam. And you can watch that deepfake video on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Instrumental]

Jonathan Miller obit

DF: Jonathan Miller wore many hats. He studied — then promptly gave up — medicine. And seemingly within moments of removing his doctor hat, he put on a clown hat. Or whatever comical hat was required onstage. His 1960s comedy review "Beyond the Fringe" — co-written and performed with Peter Cook, Dudley Moore and Alan Bennett — is seminal to satire as we know it. Mr. Miller went onto direct at some of the world's great opera houses. Then, he went back to medicine. Then back to directing. This week, Mr. Miller died peacefully, after a long battle with Alzheimer's. He was 85. In the 1980s, he studied neuropsychology at Canada's McMaster University for a time — during which he spoke with CBC's Augusta LaPaix on "Morningside" about his many talents.

SOUNDCLIP

AGUSTA LAPAIX: You know, you meet people who have say two or sometimes even three very strong talents. And those people are often at loose ends because they're always torn between one direction and the other direction. And they struggle with say two talents. Now, you have so many talents. Have you ever felt that that conflict within yourself or what's your approach?

JONATHAN MILLER: Well, you see, I don't think of them as being many talents. I think of myself as having one particular sort of talent — which has got several different ways of expressing itself. I mean, I think I'm very good at observing people. And I think that's very useful when you're directing plays because you see the details of what people do so that you can remind actors of what they really knew all along. And that is actually what you're doing with medicine as well — or certainly with neurological medicine. You're picking out the details of things which might otherwise be overlooked. You see, people go through the world on the whole, shedding most of the details of what's around them because the practical demands of life mean that you have to edit and simplify. And you don't look at the finer details of behaviour — only those details which have relevance to the practical outcome of the next moment. Whereas if you stand back for a while, and look at the panorama in detail, you start seeing things which are extremely interesting. And that sort of interest is, more or less, transferable without any complicated details or translation into the theatre or into medicine. You know, Freud, after all, made his great advance by noticing the salient importance of slips of the tongue. In other words, in the rubbish of speech, he actually noticed really what was going on in the depths of the mind. And it's often by noticing the trivial and the neglected that you actually find the important.

DF: Jonathan Miller speaking with CBC's Augusta LaPaix on "Morningside" in 1983. Mr. Miller was a satirist, a medical doctor, a director, and a neuroscientist, among other things. He died this week of Alzheimer's. He was 85 years old.

[Music: Piano]

Part three: Nova Scotia American doctor, Albania earthquake, Baltimore wrongful convictions

Nova Scotia American doctor

Guest: Thomas Dietz

DF: He's got decades of medical expertise. But Dr. Thomas Dietz is also fast becoming an expert in bureaucratic red tape. Dr. Dietz was an emergency doctor in Oregon. Last year, he and his family relocated to Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. A local hospital there, which has had a shortage of doctors, offered him a job. That was a year-and-a-half ago now. And Dr. Dietz is still wading through the byzantine paperwork he needs to complete in order to be able to work as a doctor there. We reached Dr. Thomas Dietz in Lunenberg, Nova Scotia.

GF: Dr. Dietz, describe for me what the last year-and-a-half of your life has been like?

THOMAS DIETZ: Oh boy, trying to be a full-time emergency room physician in Oregon, downsize a house we've been living in for 20 years, and put it on the market and sell it. Pack everything up and drive across the continent, get our kids situated in school here, and try to finish our renovation on our old house here.

GF: And that's all because you were moving from Oregon to Lunenberg, and because you got a job offer at a hospital, right?

TD: Yes. My wife is Canadian. My kids are dual-citizens. We had been visiting Nova Scotia for years over the summer. They have a grandmother here. So we thought that would be a great thing to do.

GF: So Fisherman's Memorial Hospital, they offer you a job. What did you think the next steps would be?

TD: I imagined it would be similar to the United States — which is you deal with a single bureaucracy: the medical board for your particular state. And you fill out an application, and provide documentation of where you are trained and what your experience has been. I've had licenses in six different states in the United States. And the longest one was California — which I believe took about two months.

GF: And you've been waiting 18 months in Nova Scotia, is that right?

TD: That's correct.

GF: And this is at a time when Fisherman's Memorial has a shortage of emergency room doctors.

TD: Yes, ironically, I'm on their email list announcing what shifts they have that are still not staffed by a physician. And my understanding is that it's generally in the 30 to 40 per cent of the shifts range.

GF: Wow! And in addition to that, they've actually had to, as I understand it, had to close their emergency ward from time to time simply because they didn't have enough staff. So what was the first clue then to you that this process was going to be a lot more complicated than you thought?

TD: My situation is not completely straightforward because the medical school where I did my internship training the first year out of medical school merged with another medical school in Philadelphia. And they went through a number of reorganizations and changed their name four times in the 1990s. So that really should not have had any impact on what was happening. But the agency in the US. — a non-profit that validates foreign medical credentials — sent all of my information to them to validate. And they spun their wheels for six months sending letters to medical school that didn't exist under that name, who had moved to a completely different address 26 years previously.

GF: This was the Nova Scotia authorities that were sending the letters to the wrong address?

TD: No, no, of the first step for applying for a license is to get an account — a web account — with the Medical Council of Canada. And send them copies of your diploma and your residency training certificate and your board specialty certificate — all of which I did. But the first year of my training wasn't because the company that had been hired to do that was sending the request to the wrong place. They were sending it to a medical school that was part of a different university now.

GF: What was happening in Nova Scotia that you think made this so difficult?

TD: Well, for somebody coming here, they're not going to know who the players are. They're not going to know which bureaucracies they need to be approaching. They're not going to understand the structure. And I think the burden is on Nova Scotia Health Authority recruiters to guide the person that they're recruiting through the process.

GF: And did you feel that you were being guided through that process?

TD: Oh no, no, I didn't even know what I didn't know.

GF: I heard at some point you even got a phone call from the premier of Nova Scotia, Stephen McNeil, what did he tell you?

TD: Well, he had heard from somebody who'd been down in Lunenburg that there was this American physician there who wanted to work and wasn't able to. So he reached out to me. He doesn't have any direct say in the matter because the licensing authority is not strictly speaking a government body. The problem is that I received a three-page document from another American physician who successfully was able to traverse this maze. And it lists seven different bureaucracies that you have to interface with in order to work here.

GF: Seven separate government departments?

TD: Seven governmental or quasi-governmental medical board-type bodies in order to work. So the first four gets you through the licensing process, but then there are still others that you have to be communicating with and making sure that you're doing the right steps in order that you can have a billing number and that you can get paid so forth and so on.

GF: Are any of these delays on your end? Do you take responsibility?

TD: Oh yeah.

GF: You do?

TD: Well, I think multiple things. I'm trying to work a full-time job as a physician. You know, I'm trying to pack up and sell a house. I'm trying to get my kids situated in school in a foreign country. I'm trying to plan the complicated immigration and shipping logistics of moving here — and trying to go through this licensing process. Yeah, I had to put it down from time to time because there were so many other things happening.

GF: All in all, not much of a welcome to this country. What are your thoughts now? It must have crossed your mind to just pack it all in and go home. But where does this all leave you?

TD: I feel welcomed in a lot of other ways, so I think it's balancing out. Well, financially, it's been very difficult. I'm a ten-minute walk from an emergency department that's closed 30 per cent of the time, and I could be working there. From my perspective, the takeaway lesson is this could go a lot smoother. And I think a very important step for that would be having a clear step-by-step document for people coming in. And having the recruiters really birddog the process and make sure that it's going well.

GF: Are you going to stick it out?

TD: I think so.

GF: You can see the light now at the end of the tunnel?

TD: I'm getting emails from recruiters in the U.S. that would be happy to, you know, do all the paperwork, get me a medical license in Connecticut, fly me down there, and have me work in one of their hospitals there. You know, and this is appealing because I know how smoothly that would go. But right now, I'm planning on sticking it out here.

GF Well, I'm happy to hear that. I think that they need you there. So thank you so much for talking to us today, Dr. Dietz. Good luck.

TD: You're very welcome. Thank you.

GF: Bye-bye.

TD: Bye.

DF: Dr. Thomas Dietz is a former Oregon emergency room doctor, and — he hopes — a future emergency room doctor in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia. That's where we reached him.

[Music: Guitar]

Albania earthquake

Guest: Besar Likmeta

DF: Those who survived Albania's worst earthquake in decades are in mourning. At least 27 people have died. Some families have lost almost everyone. Aftershocks continue to shake areas of the country. And people are still trying to find survivors in the rubble. Sometimes they are successful — like when this boy, who was screaming for help, was pulled from the remains of a building.

SOUNDCLIP

[A boy screams in a foreign language]

DF: But other times, the help is coming too late. Besar Likmeta is the editor of the local news site Reporter.al. We reached him in Tirana.

GF: Besar, you have been to the site where the rescue efforts are going on. What have you seen?

BL: Well, Gillian, I arrived yesterday in morning at the site of this collapse six-story building. Once I arrived there, the first thing I saw there was a rescue effort underway, but also there was a lot of confusion. There was police officers. There were firefighters. There were army officers, but the tools that they had at their disposal and the expertise to cut through steel and concrete that this collapsed building when a woman was trapped behind this steel door. And they still believe that there is people inside. It wasn't moving as fast. They had to use their bare hands to move up concrete slabs. And the family members that were just sitting outside this collapsed building. They were crying. They were chain smoking. They were feverishly asking for something to be done. So it was a chaotic and tragic situation. It's kind of improved because some assistance Albania got and some more expertise of foreign rescue teams arrived later in the day. But I think there was also big crowds of onlookers. I mean, neighbours who had seen this building collapse. One of the neighbours describe it to me as the apocalypse. It felt like the apocalypse because there was a loud bang when it came down. And then after, there was big dust of smoke splashed out in the neighbourhood. And people were already outside because first, there was a four-point-four quake that hit. And then ten minutes later was the big quake — six-point-three on the Richter scale. And that's when all the damage came.

GF: You mentioned the woman. Were they able to pull her from the rubble?

BL: Yes, this was this 30-year-old jeweler. Her name was Diane. And she was pulled out of the rubble after 14 hours after being trapped in this door. Unfortunately, after she was pulled out of the rubble alive at 6:00 p.m, I mean, I recall that the quake happened at 4:00 in the morning. And she died two hours later in the hospital.

GF: She died.

BL: And she also lost her eight-year-old daughter in the rubble, and also her mom.

GF: Wow! And we're now talking about… what… 36 or more hours since the quake hit. Is there still hope that there might be others who were found alive?

BL: Well, the rescue teams are feverishly trying to go and still working basically day and night to actually look for survivors among the rubble of several sites in several villages where several buildings collapsed. So they're still trying, and, I mean, hope never dies. But we know that as more hours pass by, the likelihood of finding survivors become smaller. So it's a fight against time.

GF: Yes. In 1979, there was another big earthquake that hit Albania — leaving around 40 people in your country dead. How does this earthquake compare? Do we know yet?

BL: Well, I mean this is being compared to the 1979 one. Certainty, there hasn't been a big quake in Albania since then of this kind. Although, there was a major quake this September of five-point-eight on the Richter scale that did cause some damage. Certainly, the country's more prepared than in 1979. That’s when actually the building codes were improved to sustain seismic activity. But there is still some old building. And there's been a lot of wildcat construction in the last three decades because Albania emerged from its Stalin-style communist regime, so not all the buildings are safe. And you could feel that when you see the people not trusting the buildings they live in, there is a lot of people in the streets in Tirana today. There was an aftershock. People came out to the buildings at 4:00 and the same thing in the port city. I could see a lot of people just sleeping outside in their cars, sleeping in in the open spaces. There was a tent set up by charities, and they they're using that. So there is a general feeling that people are still scared of what may happen.

GF: Because there are still aftershocks.

BL: Exactly. There's still aftershocks that can actually be felt quite heavily in you’re in tall buildings.

GF: The Prime Minister has already promised the construction of better housing for the people who are going to be left homeless by this. There's talk of an international donor conference in Turkey to raise money to help with that. What has to happen now for Albania to recover from this?

BL: Well, I think the first thing that Albanians should do is provide more rules and regulation of let's say the developer, the real estate development community. There was a lot of speculation in the market because during the Albania Stalinist dictator, instead of building public housing, he built over 150,000 to 250,000 bunkers to protect from an imaginary invasion from the West. So there was a huge shortage when communism collapsed in 1990. And there was a lot of wildcat construction — which just didn't meet the codes and the rules that were on the books. But people just built houses because they needed to. And a lot of politicians got rich out of this speculation. And a lot of businessmen and oligarchs got rich out of the speculation. I think time has come for Albania to realize that this kind of let's say speculation with housing and like with people's lives should end. And the government, or at least the political community, should impose some rules so we can build a better future at least for ourselves, right?

GF: Do you do you see the pressure building for that? Do you think that that's something that will happen?

BL: I hope so. I mean, at least people are really not trusting. There’s an issue of trust as I can see about the construction that was done in the last three decades.

GF: Well, good luck. I know you will have many stories to tell over there over the days to come. But I hope there are at least some good stories among them.

BL: I hope so too. Thank you very much.

GF: Thanks so much.

DF: Besar Likmeta is the editor of the Albanian news site Reporter.al. He was in Tirana.

[Music: Sombre]

Baltimore wrongful convictions

Guest: Shawn Armbrust

DF: They spent 36 years behind bars for a crime they didn't commit. Then, two days ago, Alfred Chestnut, Ransom Watkins, and Andrew Stewart were exonerated — and walked out of a Baltimore courthouse free men. All three were 16 when they were convicted of murdering a classmate, in a case that prosecutors now say was deeply flawed. They're now in their fifties. Outside the courthouse, Mr. Chestnut, Mr. Watkins, and Mr. Stewart spoke to reporters — starting with Mr. Stewart.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW STEWART: When I got information, I didn't know how to stop crying. Until a friend of mine came to me, and hugged me, and said, man, your journey is coming to an end. But it’s not. My journey just beginning.

RANSOM WATKINS: It wasn’t easy. I’m happy that we're free, but we got a lot to fix. Us three standing here should have never happened.

ALFRED CHESTNUT: I’m look forward, man, to living the rest of my life. Oh man, I tell you. It’s out of this world. Oh, whew. Oh, man. I've been always dreaming of this.

DF: That's Alfred Chestnut speaking. Before him, you heard Ransom Watkins and Andrew Stewart. Mr. Chestnut never stopped pushing for the case to be reviewed. And in May he got his wish, after writing to the city's state's attorney, Marilyn Mosby. Her office's Conviction Integrity Unit took on the case, eventually leading to this week's exoneration. Baltimore, which launched the unit in 2015, is part of a growing number of jurisdictions tackling wrongful convictions. Shawn Armbrust is the Executive Director of the Mid-Atlantic Innocence Project, which worked alongside Baltimore's Conviction Integrity Unit. We reached her in Washington, DC.

GF: Ms. Armbrust, we just heard the voices of those three men as they were speaking outside of the courthouse on Monday. But you were in the courtroom. Tell me about that moment when the three were finally declared innocent?

SHAWN ARMBRUST: Everyone burst into applause — which usually isn't allowed to happen. But everyone recognized that this was a pretty special moment.

GF: Yeah. Your organization represented one of the men, Ransome Watkins. Tell me a little bit about him? What did this decision mean for him?

SA: Well, you know, to put this in context, if you look back at the coverage of this case, these were teenage boys. They were falsely accused of a really high-profile, brutal murder. And they were vilified. They were called monsters, hoodlums, killers. And so to be able to walk out of court as free men, with now literally the whole world knowing they're innocent means so much. It doesn't mean that their fight isn't over. But now they have a new fight. And it's really adjusting to life in the free world.

GF: Let's talk about that in a minute, but first, just give us a sense of why the convictions were overturned? What were the flaws that the judge decided had happened here?

SA: There were so many flaws. And, you know, really credit goes to the prosecutor for ultimately finding them. The first flaw is that the eyewitnesses who testified that these men had committed the crime. Actually, three of those four eyewitnesses initially told police that one person had committed the crime. And at least one of those witnesses identified the person who committed the crime. And, as it turns out, police and prosecutors knew that that person was seen running from the scene of the crime and dropping a gun. That is both incredibly powerful evidence of innocence, but also incredibly powerful evidence that the defence should have had at the time.

GF: Why didn't the defence have it?

SA: It wasn't turned over. You know, in the United States, criminal trials are incredibly opaque. And prosecutors have a ton of discretion about what it is they turn over. And so here, we don't know why it was withheld? But we do know that it was withheld — and that even though this is an extreme example, it's not an uncommon problem.

GF: There was also evidence that police had encouraged false testimony from witnesses as well, right?

SA: That is correct. And we know that the methods police here used to interrogate witnesses sometimes lead to false confessions. That's particularly true with juveniles. And what is also true, but less discussed, is that when police are dealing with witnesses they think are being uncooperative, they turn to those same methods. So we've seen in this case that three teenage witnesses were treated like suspects. They were threatened. They were told they were going to be charged with the crime. And ultimately, they did what seemed to be the logical thing for their teenage brains at that moment and told the police what they wanted to hear because that's what they thought they had to do. And we haven't just seen that in this case, our previous exoneration in Baltimore with the state's attorney involved a coerced teenage witness. You know this is not one bad apple. This is a real systemic flaw.

GF: And it sent three innocent young men to prison for 36 years. One of them, Alfred Chestnut, never gave up petitioning for a review, did he? So why was he finally successful this year?

SA: So in 2015, Marilyn Mosby took office. At the state's attorney's office in Baltimore revamped its Conviction Integrity Unit. They began partnering with us and we really solidified that partnership with a grant from the Department of Justice. And that has really increased the number of cases that all of us can be involved in. And, in particular, the state's attorney's office is now getting requests from prisoners who are claiming innocence. Mr. Chestnut was one of those individuals. And because of his doggedness — both with that request and with Freedom of Information Act requests he made to agencies including the attorney general — the attention of the state's attorney's office was grabbed. And that information was uncovered for the first time in 36 years.

GF: Innocent projects like the one you work for have been around for some time. But recently, and I understand there are now 50 prosecutors across the United States who've launched these Conviction Integrity Units — specifically to review all cases. Why is that happening now?

SA: I think there's a growing recognition that the American criminal legal system has emphasized prosecuting as many people, charging them with as many offenses as possible. And there's a growing recognition that that sometimes the system gets it wrong. And prosecutors also have a responsibility to make sure the criminal justice system is accurate.

GF: You mentioned that in many ways the fight these three men now face is just beginning. What do you mean by that?

SA: The transition for individuals who have spent time in prison at all, let alone for this many decades, and for something they didn't do, is a really uphill battle. Prison is an incredibly traumatic experience. And so they really are going to have a difficult time readjusting to being out in the world. Crowds can be difficult for exonerees. Loud places are difficult. You get used to the routine in prison, and then suddenly you're home again. You have to get used to your family again. You have to get used to modern technology. It's a very different world. And I don't think any of us can really imagine how difficult and painful that is.

GF: All right. Well, thank you so much for joining us today to tell us about it.

SA: Thank you for having me.

GF: Bye-bye.

SA: Bye.

DF: Shawn Armbrust is the Executive Director of the Mid-Atlantic Innocence Project, which represented Ransom Watkins. We reached her in Washington, DC.

[Music: Piano]

Happy cow VR

DF: Today in Krasnogorsk, Russia, it was cold and cloudy. Tomorrow it will be cold and cloudy. On Friday, it will slightly less cold — and cloudy. That's especially uninspiring weather when you're sent outside every day to hang out with your work colleagues. No sunshine to warm your flanks — nothing but brown grass to look at. Nothing but dead grass to eat. The life of a dairy cow is monotonous — especially during the fall and winter in Russia. And there's no chance they can move on to greener pastures. But there is a chance greener pastures can move on to them. Now that scientists have customized virtual-reality goggles for what Moscow's Ministry of Agriculture and Food calls "the structural features of cow heads". Look, all we have are photographs of a cow with VR goggles strapped to its head and that statement. Which claims this is a real experiment, in which the cows were treated to a "unique summer field simulation program". It says, quote, "Experts noted reduced anxiety and improved overall emotional mood in the herd." Unquote — and that, in the next phase of this experiment, they'll see whether that improves milk production. Now, I have my doubts about the reality of that virtual reality headset. It's either something they put on a cow — or something that falls out of a bull, if you know what I mean. But if they're really simulating a summer field for livestock, that's great. And I guess whatever comes out of them afterwards is "pasture eyes" milk.

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November 29, 2019 episode transcript

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