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The AIH Transcript for November 14, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Karen Gordon

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

CO: A case of the vapers. The government of British Columbia is not waiting for more people to get sick from vaping -- it's planning regulation changes that will discourage young people from taking it up now.

KG: "Hey! Get a gander at that shutterbug. -- he's got moxie!" At the impeachment hearings yesterday, renowned news photographer David Burnett used a Second World War era wooden camera -- he'll tell us how he developed the habit.

CO: Hoping is the point of no return. After six years in a detention centre on Manus Island -- Kurdish Iranian author Behrouz Boochani is in New Zealand attending a book festival, and he says he will not go back.

KG: Acting shelfishly. At a library in Idaho, someone is deliberately messing with the non-fiction section -- apparently hiding left-leaning books so that only the right ones are left.

CO: Take my Wi-Fi, please. The high-powered radio telescopes in a West Virginia town won't work if residents are using Wi-Fi -- so as you can imagine, scientists find it's getting harder to stay focused.

KG: And expanding the horn section. At first, our guests didn't give his photos of a male deer a second thought -- but then he saw it had a third antler. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that knows most have two -- but the buck didn't stop there.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Amateur wildlife photographer captures photo of rare 3-antlered deer

B.C. vaping regulations

Guest: Adrian Dix

KG: British Columbia has seen and heard enough. Earlier today, the province announced that it plans to limit the amount of nicotine and vapour pods and liquid -- and jack up the provincial sales tax on vaping products, among other changes. B.C.'s health minister says those changes are meant to protect young people from the risk of addiction and serious illness. We reached Minister Adrian Dix in Victoria.

CO: Mr. Dix why did you feel you had to act now to restrict vaping?

ADRIAN DIX: Well, in British Columbia, the most recent report showed at least one in five high school students are trying vaping on a regular basis -- nicotine based vaping. So what we're talking about is a whole new generation of people getting addicted to nicotine -- and that's a significant issue.

CO: How does that compare with regular smoking? I mean is that more? Because young people smoke, right?

AD: That's right. But it's significantly more, I should say. And in fact, smoking rates have been going down generation to generation in B.C. We have the lowest overall smoking rates in the country. So this was a new way of bringing young people into contact with nicotine.

CO: Okay. So these new regulations include a sales tax increase of 13 percent. The restrictions on advertising where young people spend time like parks and bus shelters. Restrictions on whether flavored vaping -- where flavored vaping products can be bought. This is crucial, isn't it? Because of the attraction of those. So is that going to solve the problem? Are you going to reduce this 21 percent of your teens vaping with these measures?

AD: Well, I think it is the first step which is to reduce nicotine levels in vaping products is very significant. As we know in the European Union and the United Kingdom, and they are still the same thing, they have much lower levels of nicotine allowed in vaping products and they have lower levels of youth taking it up. We believe that young people are attracted by the nicotine and the impact of the nicotine on the body and the addictive natures of nicotine. And that they're affected by flavoring. And thirdly, they're affected by the idea -- I think -- that vaping isn't bad for you. And this idea, you saw it in the most recently, there were federal government ads on vaping, on bus shelters and so on here that refer you to a information website. But we're not saying what we should say I think, which is that if you're not a smoker and you're not using for harm reduction, then this is harmful to you. Harm reduction doesn't mean no harm. It means less harm. And if you're a teenager who's never smoked, then vaping products are not good for you.

CO: But it's already restricted, right? Under 19 -- they're not supposed to have access to vaping products. And so they're getting them. This is just British Columbia -- what's to stop them from going other places or getting them online or having an underground market for this?

AD: Well, you're quite right. But I think these measures will be effective here in British Columbia. But we also need the federal government to get involved to parallel our measures within federal jurisdiction. They have significant powers here. They've been consulting people for some time on new regulations to address issues like flavoring, issues like nicotine, and issues such as advertising which are much more federal issues than provincial issues. So we need them to get involved as well, particularly on the online side. I'm very encouraged because the federal government has published regulations that start to deal with some of these areas that they're going to proceed. And we're very hopeful and we wrote to them today and we're prepared to work with them under any circumstances that the new government will take action very very early in its mandate.

CO: This is all coming after we're hearing many reports, first of all, coming from the United States and now in Canada about lung diseases, illnesses, of people who vape. Some deaths even. And that's mostly related -- it seems to be related, they don't know, to possibly marijuana or THC related products that are vaped. What are you hearing from public health experts in British Columbia about the potential dangers?

AD: Well, there are two sets of issues. There's issues of vaping related illness, pulmonary illness of different kinds. And the truth is, we don't know enough yet. And we're going to be learning more significantly in the next little while. There's a significant report from the United States this week. Some of this comes clearly from products that you call illegal or black market products in the United States. That has been the cause of some of these problems. But, you know, from our perspective anyway, it's important, I think, to take action now, to be to be ready, depending on what the long-term and the mid-term implications are of people using these products. So there's a problem with people getting really sick. And then there's the problem of essentially addiction to nicotine. What we found for the first time in 2018 after the federal government approved essentially the big tobacco companies came into the vaping market after the federal government approved nicotine based vaping products -- this legislation in 2018 -- we've seen a dramatic uptick in youth vaping. A targeting of young people on social media to promote vaping as a as a cultural icon. So what we need to do is the other part of our plan, which is engage with young people. We're setting up an action committee of young people who will design messages for young people to young people -- youth to youth -- in order to, I think, improve the outcomes here. Because I think the message up to now is vaping doesn't really affect your health when of course all of the evidence I think suggests that it poses significant risks to people's health.

CO: So we're hearing about the addiction to products and we're hearing about young people's brains and bodies being affected by vaping at these early ages. So why do you think all of this wasn't known? Where was the research on this? Who did the homework before these products became a huge industry?

AD: Well, I think we just have to say that governments did not get it right. Governments at the federal level didn't get it right. Governments at the provincial level didn't get it right. We are the first act amongst the provinces here to try and rectify that situation. And we have to do it, I think, in two ways. We have to work with young people because education is important. I mean, when I was growing up, lots of people smoked. It wasn't allowed. There were strong laws against it. And really we reduced smoking rates when it started to become culturally acceptable to smoke. I think we have to do the same sets of things. We also need tough regulations and we have to follow the evidence.

CO: Are you expecting pushback from the vaping industry?

AD: I think some people will like it. People who are committed in community who have adult-only vaping stores because that's where we're limiting any the sale of flavors other than tobacco to adult-only vaping stores. I don't think they'll be unhappy with this necessarily, because what we're saying is that we shouldn't be selling vaping products really in stores that aren't restricted to adults. That seems to make sense. How the big companies respond, well I think they're going to have to respond significantly to the evidence, to the health evidence, and the public response. And that will require not just our intervention, but other provinces and the federal government.

CO: We will leave it there. Minister Dix thank you.

AD: Thank you very much. Take care.

KG: That was B.C.'s Health Minister, Adrian Dix, in Victoria. The provincial government says the new regulations will come into force in spring of next year.

[Music]

Manus Island visa

Guest: Behrouz Boohcani

KG: For the first time in more than six years, Behrouz Boohcani is tasting freedom. The Kurdish-Iranian refugee and author has been detained on Manus Island in Papua New Guinea since 2013. It's the controversial offshore detention facility that Australia has been sending migrants to for years. But Mr. Boochani is now in New Zealand -- a country that has granted him a temporary visitor's visa to attend a book festival in Christchurch. We reached him there right before going to air.

CO: Behrouz how does it feel to be in New Zealand?

BEHROUZ BOOCHANI: Yeah, I'm very happy. And I think, you know, when you get freedom it's one matter. But it will take time that you understand freedom. So for me now, I am just the feeling the city which is very interesting. I am feeling freedom and all. I walk in the street. So it's a great moment. But regarding politics, I think it's very important that I share this story with people of New Zealand.

CO: It must feel very strange because you had six years on Manus Island. You spent all that time in detention in Papua New Guinea. When we spoke with you last, you described the horrible conditions that you wrote about in your book. It must be a very strange contrast to now be walking in the streets of a city in New Zealand.

BB: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I'm just feeling this city, you know. You know people ask me, are you going to claim asylum in this country? Or are you going to go to America? You know I just want to be free. Out of this system for a couple of weeks. So I want to enjoy this time. And, you know, understand freedom. So that's why I'm not going to make any decision for a couple of weeks. So I just want to work as a writer -- as a free man.

CO: You are there because of the festival, a book festival, in Christchurch. Your book which has won numerous awards because you told that book by sending it out in text messages from that detention centre describing the conditions in which people were being treated and the horrors of that place. This book "No Friend But The Mountains." Why do you think people are so interested in that story and yet they continue to allow that detention centre to exist?

BB: Yeah, I think it is a global issue -- there is a war against refugees. We have 65-million displaced people around the world. It is a big number. So there are many stories. Regarding Manus -- you know the Australian government always try to hide these kind of crimes. You know, that's why they exile us to a remote place because they didn't want that people to hear our stories. And always they have propaganda against us. And that's why I think this book and other books are so important because people can feel the refugees -- you know the human face, you know? That's why I think it's important for people. And people are interested in these works.

CO: In Australia -- even though you won a very big award there, Australia would not let you go to claim that award. Why do you think New Zealand has given you this visa to come to its country?

BB: Yeah, I think what the Australian government has done in Manus Island and negatively impact, you know, this region. I'm mean pacific countries. So that's why I think New Zealand has a role to do something for humanity. And I think right now people blame Australia and compare Australia with New Zealand that whole New Zealand is a welcoming country and on the other side Australia is doing this crime. So that's why I think it's very important. It is a challenge against the mentality of this system and the Australian governments. So right now, I'm here as a free man so I'm happy that I am able to share this story with people of New Zealand in person. Already I did -- my movie was part of the Auckland Film Festival two years ago, so I attended the festivals through Skype. I participated in some events in the Auckland University through WhatsApp and Skype. But now I am here.

CO: It's a big difference to be there. But you are there on a temporary visitor's visa. When the festival is over, are you going to go back to the detention centre in Papua New Guinea?

BB: No, no, no. I'm not going to do that. What I'm going to do is apply to extend visa because we have many events here. So I need some time to share this story. But, you know, as I before mention -- right now, I would like to be as a free man. So I want to be out of any process. I don't want to put myself through another process because many times over the past six years we went through many complicated process. So right now, I prefer to be free.

CO: We spoke -- just a week ago -- with a young man who had just arrived in Canada who had been on Manus Island. A man from Iran -- a young man -- who was very traumatised by the years he had spent there. And (he is) so happy that he has been accepted in Canada. Do you think there is hope for the others? Do you think others will be able to leave and find another home as you have?

BB: Yeah, I think so. Two years ago, we were 900 people in Manaus. So now we are more than 200 people. So we can say that most people are gone. So for now, I think Canada is a big chance because I know there is a program that people of Canada are going to sponsor people -- refugees -- in Port Moresby. So that's why I think it is a big chance and a big opportunity. I hope that Canada takes responsibility and do the process faster so more people, you know, find a safe place and start a new life.

CO: We will apologize to people -- it's a very noisy line because you are out and about and have much to do. So we will leave it there, Behrouz. And I hope you enjoy your time in New Zealand.

BB: Yeah. Thank you very much.

KG: Behrouz Boohcani is a Kurdish-Iranian refugee who's been living in a detention facility on Manus Island in Papua New Guinea. He's now in Christchurch, New Zealand, on a visitor's visa. We reached him in Christchurch right before we went to air.

[Music]

Three-antler buck

Guest: Steve Lindberg

KG: When Steve Lindberg hunts these days, it's not with a gun -- it's with a camera. Recently, he was out in the woods and snapped some photos of a buck. And when he got home and got a better look at those photos, he realized there was something highly unusual about the deer. We reached Steve Lindberg in Marquette, Michigan.

CO: Steve, what was it about this deer that made you want to take its photo in the first place?

STEVE LINDBERG: Well, taking photos of wildlife is what I do. And when I saw this deer, it was apparent to me that, you know, it had a pretty nice set of antlers.

CO: And when did you notice that it had something unusual about his antlers?

SL: Well, I noticed right away that, you know, they weren't typical antlers. But I thought the antlers were just an offshoot of the -- I think it was the right side -- and it wasn't until I put those photos up on my computer that I saw that that was a completely different set of antlers. That was a three-antler deer. And to the best of my knowledge, I've never seen one before. It was an unusual animal.

CO: What have you heard from the experts about your three-antler deer?

SL: You know, one vet said it was a one in a million shot. But, you know, I have since received messages from people I don't know. "Oh, I shot one of those once." "I have one's head hanging on my wall" -- in some place or other.

CO: We're going to put your photo up on our webpage and our social media. But can you just describe what it looks like?

SL: He has a left antler that is a very big antler -- and has, one, two, three, five points on it. The two antlers around on the right side are smaller than the left side antler. And I immediately noticed that. That's what I thought it was when I first looked at it -- just a set of antlers that wasn't uniform on both sides. But it turns out that there was a completely separate antler in the middle there.

CO: Now when you put this photo up to show everybody, did they say "Oh you Photoshopped that" "That's not real?" Did you get a lot of that kind of response?

SL: [Laughs] Yeah, I've gotten some of that kind of response. I took about 50 photos of this deer, at least -- I kept about 50. And I showed them other photos which showed that those antlers on the head in more detail. And I've had a couple of people come back and say, "Oh yeah! You're right." And the flat-earthers are never going to believe that I didn't Photoshop it.

CO: And the animal experts who looked at it said, "Yep, that's for sure what that is." Have they told you how the deer, the buck, ended up with these two antlers on one side?

SL: It could have been at birth or in gestation -- it could have had a third antler form. Or perhaps there was some kind of an injury that happened and for whatever reason that third antler formed.

CO: But now, of course, you're out there taking pictures of wildlife and deer. But you use to shoot the animals themselves, right?

SL: You know, I grew up in a hunting culture. And November 15th, which is the first day of deer season in Michigan was a holy day. And I would say probably 20 years ago, part of the thing that changed is hunting itself changed. When I grew up hunting, you put on your hunting clothes, you went out, and you went in the woods, and you went looking for an animal, and you stocked it or you might still-hunt or you might sit for a while, but you were out there in nature looking for your game. A number of years ago, the state of Michigan began to allow baiting and people built deer blinds. But I mean, they were elaborate deer blinds and then they would wait for the animal to come to the bait. That never really appealed to me, even though I did it because it changed the way animals moved. And if you wanted to see animals or shoot an animal, you almost had to hunt that way. It became less enjoyable for me and I realized I didn't even like killing them anymore. The thrill was gone. But the thrill of the hunt is still there when I go out with the camera because I'm trying to get close enough to an animal to get a photo of it. I mean, it's the same thing, except there's no quote unquote "kill" at the end.

CO: But what about that possibility -- I mean, now that you have put this image out and people are quite intrigued -- are you worried that somebody who is interested in shooting a deer might say that looks like a pretty good trophy? Are you worried that maybe you put a target on this buck?

SL: Well, I made a deliberate attempt not to give a location as to where I saw this deer. But that being said, you know, when the season opens on the 15th, there are going to be a lot of hunters out there. I'd never seen this deer there before. I've gone back several times hoping to get some more photos. And I think he's gone from where he was.

CO: Maybe he knows he's been spotted and he's on Facebook and it's time to get out.

SL: It's time to get out. But it's completely legal to shoot this deer. And if he wanders in front of a hunter in the next couple of weeks, I'm sure he's going to be shot. I'm personally hoping that's not going to happen because I'd like to get more photos of him. But that's not in my hands anymore. But I have done everything I can to not give the location of this deer. But I suspect even if I did give the location, he's someplace else.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. And we will put the photos up -- people can look at this wonderful animal. And thanks for speaking with us.

SL: Well, you're more than welcome.

KG: Steve Lindberg is an amateur photographer. We reached him in Marquette, Michigan. There's more on that story, including a photo of that rare buck on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Wi-Fi is illegal in this West Virginia town, but it 'keeps creeping in' anyhow

Impeachment photos

Guest: David Burnett

KG: Plastered across the front pages of every major American newspaper today: pictures of the impeachment hearings. Specifically photos of witnesses Bill Taylor and George Kent surrounded by news photographers. But one of those shooters in the crowd yesterday is still waiting to see how his photos turned out because David Burnett was using a 1940s-era large-format wooden camera and they're being developed as we speak. David Burnett covered the impeachment hearings of former presidents Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton. He also captured crucial moments of the 1979 Iranian revolution, and has taken photos at every Summer Olympic Games since 1984. We reached him in New York City.

CO: David, I am looking at the photo of the people taking photographs at the impeachment hearings. There is a sea of people with digital cameras. And then there's you in the middle of it. How did you feel that you really stood out in that crowd?

DAVID BURNETT: Well, I know that anywhere I go with one of my old film cameras, the odds are pretty high that there won't be a lot of film photographers since the ease and quality and rapidity of digital photography is kind of just become the standard now. You know, in the press it's still a matter of deadlines. And the fact is what the new cameras you can shoot and transmit at almost the same time. So it's as close to a live picture as you'll ever get.

CO: Okay. So there's a reason why they're using those cameras because, well, they have to catch -- there's not much action -- if anything happens, like somebody coughs or sneezes or looks weird you've got to catch that in an instant. So why did you take this camera? What was your motivation?

DB: Just to set [laughs] just to set the record straight, as they might say at one of these hearings, I did also carry a digital camera with me like in case news actually breaks out. The big camera for me is a kind of a self-inflicted challenge. I started shooting maybe 15 years ago, around the time of the 2004 Olympics. And I was looking for some other manifestation or artistic form of using cameras to take pictures, and that the pictures would represent an event. By 2002, 2003, and 2004 pretty much everybody working in the press who had to get a picture and do something with it quickly had gone to the then new digital cameras. And I had this feeling that we were using sort of the same cameras. I was seeing that the look of those pictures based on the kind of lenses that we all were sharing at that time, there was a sameness to that. While the pictures were different there was kind of a stylistic thing that was bugging me. And I wanted to just see if I could find something else. I started shooting with this 4x5 film. And all of a sudden it was not only inconvenient and clumsy, but it occasionally actually made a pretty good picture.

CO: Just describe for people who haven't seen the picture of you taking pictures. The camera is quite beautiful. It's wooden, isn't it?

DB: This camera is a real piece of artwork. It's called the Aero-liberator. And the guy who made it is one of these guys that I kind of refer to as the "mad scientists of our photo world" his name is John Minnicks. Essentially was taking a 75-year-old camera, stripping the black leather off of it, down to the wood, putting a lens on it from a 1943 or 1944 World War Two aerial reconnaissance camera. It was not only beautiful, but it was fast, meaning you could shoot it in low light. And he called it "Liberator" because this is a camera that you can handhold. You don't need a flash. You don't need the tripod. So I just had to have one.

CO: But you in the room with your camera -- it's a pretty retro look. And there is kind of wonderful irony to that because the whole scene is kind of retro, isn't it? I mean, it is reminiscent of past impeachment hearings which you covered. You covered Nixon's impeachment hearing, didn't you?

DB: I was around in 73 and 74 for the Watergate hearings, which led to Nixon's resignation. And in 98, I was still living in Washington, D.C. when they tried to get Bill Clinton for having lied under oath. So the whole impeachment thing is kind of a curious beast. The Nixon era, you had people from both parties saying that there's something odd here, there's something that isn't right. Nowadays, it seems to be a little bit more on party lines, but whatever it is, it is the thing of the moment.

CO: But it is, as you say "a thing of the moment." Everybody else's pictures are already in some newspaper being, you know...

DB: Those are the pictures of yesterday's moment. Mine will be the pictures of tomorrow's moment because I think that's when I get my film back.

CO: As wonderful as the camera is, in the end, it is a former ambassador, a diplomat, some State Department official. How exciting would these pictures actually be?

DB: I'm not shooting for the wire services. But if I shoot it -- yeah, I don't want it to just sit around forever. I'd like to see it. But I mean my lab is now turning stuff around in two days. And you have no idea how quick that is. They're burning the coal all night.

CO: There's video of you taking a picture and you see how slow this is as you change the film in order to get another shot. Does it actually force you to focus in a way that maybe the other photographers don't have?

DB: Yeah, I mean it is an interesting sort of psychological exercise. You know I describe it as sometimes working with these cameras is like purposely putting one hand behind your back. On my camera you have to focus, you have to make sure the aperture of the lens is set, you have to make sure the shutter is set, you have to load the film holder just the right way, and the mirror has to be down blocking the light coming in, and then you have to pull a dark slide. And there's so many things that can go wrong just because you missed one little step along the way. And yet the stuff that's worth doing is worth doing, because what you get out of is something that you feel is special enough. So, I mean, maybe when I look at tomorrow's pictures, I'm going to say, "Well that was a real bust." [Laughter] But there is a 60-40 chance of that happening actually. Because you're right this is not a situation in which there was so much literal tension in the room and people biting their fingernails. I mean, few moments, but really nothing that was terribly out of the ordinary.

CO: Except you.

DB: Well...

CO: Which is why we're talking to you. [Laughter]

DB: First time that happened. But it's fun, you know. I mean it's like when somebody said, well, you know "What's the key to your career or your success or whatever?" And I think I said, you know when the chance comes along, don't screw it up too bad -- do the best you can with what you've got and if it's good, it'll kind of rise to the surface somehow.

CO: We will leave it there. We'll await your pictures when they ever should arrive. David, it's good to talk to you.

DB: All right. If you don't hear from me, you know what happened. [Laughter]

CO: Yes it is the 60-40. [Laughter] Take care yourself.

DB: Thank you very much.

KG: David Burnett is a world renowned freelance photographer based in New York City. That's where we reached him. And for more on that old camera of his, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Kamala Harris

KG: There has been another school shooting in the U.S. At least two students are dead and four injured at Saugus High School in Santa Clarita, California. The suspect is a 16-year-old student. He opened fire at the beginning of the school day -- shooting five students before turning the gun on himself. He is in hospital in grave condition. Meanwhile, at the same time in Washington, a motion to fast track legislation for universal background checks on all firearms sales was nixed by Republicans. After the shooting, California Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris spoke with MSNBC host Ali Velshi about the lack of action on gun control in the U.S. Senate.

SOUNDCLIP

KAMALA HARRIS: And we've all been together saying Mitch McConnell needs to convene the Senate. We have a good bill that recognizes that we don't need to take everyone guns, but we need to have smart gun safety laws. And there has been a failure...there's been a failure of the United States Congress to have the courage to act. It is pathetic. It is pathetic that people yield to a gun lobby on an issue that affects all our children. And by the way, these babies and I mean those elementary, middle, and high school kids could care less well their parents voted for in the last election. They are terrified! And we need to act! This is outrageous!

ALI VELSHI: What will motivate the Senate to move?

KAMALA HARRIS: Honestly Ali, you know after Sandy Hook, when 20 six and seven-year-old babies were slaughtered, and Congress failed to act. After 1 October in Nevada, which was the biggest massacre of human beings, and Congress failed to act. I honestly don't know what it's going to take. I do believe, however, that when these kids -- and if you talk to any kid from elementary school through the age of in their mid 20s, all of them have had these drills. And when they start voting in their numbers, I do believe there will be action. And that is such a failure of the people who are currently in leadership, which is that we're going to have to wait for these kids to lead before there is leadership on this issue.

KG: That was Democratic presidential candidate Kamala Harris speaking on MSNBC earlier today. At least two students are dead and four injured after a shooting at Saugus High School in Santa Clarita, California.

[Music]

No Wi-Fi town

Guest: Mike Holstine

KG: Imagine a town where you walk down the sidewalk on Main Street and everybody's making eye contact or looking up instead of down. It's a little unusual these days. Most of us tend to walk with our eyes fixed squarely on the rectangle of our smartphone screens. But not in Green Bank, West Virginia. It's the home of the Green Bank Observatory, and it's eight telescopes -- including the world's largest steerable radio telescope. And it's also a place where Wi-Fi and cell phone signals are forbidden. Any kind of radio interference can mess up the work of those telescopes. But now, in an age where your fridge, your car, or even a battery might have Wi-Fi transmitter in it, the people who run the observatory are finding it harder and harder to prevent that kind of radio interference. Mike Holstine is the business manager of the Green Bank Observatory. We reached him at his office in Green Bank, West Virginia.

CO: Mike, how much radio interference is too much when it comes to the work you do at the observatory?

MIKE HOLSTINE: Sort of the answer is that any radio emissions that interfere with us is too much. It keeps creeping in and every little bit that we get hurts.

CO: What are you listening for? Why do you need to have it so quiet?

MH: The universe in general is radiating radio waves, light waves, towards us all the time. And what we do is we build and operate telescopes that work specifically in the radio frequency bandwidth. And we try to intercept those radio waves and analyze that data. And it tells us a lot about the universe.

CO: It also tells you possibly you might make contact, right, with some other intelligent life out there.

MH: Well, that's right. One of the things that we do is look for what are called "techno signatures." You know if an alien civilization is utilizing radio transmissions the same as we do broadcasting TV, radio, microwaves, all the other things, then we would be able to -- hopefully -- we would be able to detect that.

CO: It's a bit like "Horton Hears a Who" isn't it?

MH: [Laughs] Yeah kind of is.

CO: So you have to have it really quiet because these are really really, very very, subtle sounds. But I mean there is so much radio waves. So much Wi-Fi signals. So how can you possibly do that? How could you eliminate everything now that must be surrounding you?

MH: Well, we're very lucky. Way back when this facility was first dedicated, 1955- 1956, and the legislature then set up a 10 mile radius around this facility that would basically limit any electrical emissions above a certain threshold. And then about a year later, Congress created what's called the national radio quiet zone.

CO: But that's more than 60 years ago. I mean, since then -- just even in the past few years so much more has come out. I mean you have smart refrigerators. Your car is full of Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. Your tire pressure. Your toothbrush. I mean, everything is now connected. So how do you keep all of that out of your zone?

MH: Yeah. So that's the tremendous challenge. You know those two zones really worked well for us for about 40 years. And then about 20 years ago, the digital revolution sort of took hold. And within the last 10-15 years, every manufacturer of every device it seems, put some wireless component into it. And so the challenge has grown exponentially. Luckily, if we want to use that word at all, it's confined to one particular frequency or maybe a couple, but 2.4 four gigahertz --that's Wi-Fi. So what we've had to do is just figure out a way to work around those frequencies.

CO: But you must have people -- I mean this is a town. People live there. So are you actually out on patrol chasing them down? Hearing where the signals are coming from -- because it's against the law. It is a bylaw regulation, right?

MH: Yeah. So there's sort of two things. First of all, you know, I have to say that the community is really really great at working with us to try to minimize interference. But we do patrol the area. We have a truck that has an array of antennas and equipment and we search for new sources of interference that we don't know has been there previously.

CO: You know As It Happens, this program spoke with you about six years ago when the story was that there were people moving to Green Bank because they were concerned about the health impacts of cell phone radiation and they thought this was a healthier place for them to live. Do you still have people coming to your town because they don't want this technology in their lives?

MH: We do yes. Green Bank, West Virginia has sort of become a haven for a contingent of society that believes that they are afflicted by radio waves, by electromagnetic frequencies of various types. They do want to come here because it says it makes them feel better.

CO: I wonder there must be some scientific experiment they could do on your town because it's a great lab, isn't it, for not having access to all the social media, the constant media -- there must be a way to look at and see what the effect is of not having that.

MH: Yeah. That's a great observation. And it's true. There are a couple of people who have proposed to do a study about the area, the kids in the area, because we were sort of a control group, if you will. I mean, it's not like we don't have Internet. I do. It just happens to be wired. The big difference is that I choose when I want to be connected. And most of society now doesn't have that choice. It seems like they're connected whether they want to be or not.

CO: And so while it sounding like really an appealing place to live. I think probably people listening to this will, including me, think what a great break that would be just to be able to plug in only...

MH: Well we'd love to have you.

CO: Well, thank you. I think we probably have a lot of people listening that are probably going to join me so be prepared for that Mike. [Laughter] It's great to speak with you. Thank you.

MH: You too.

KG: Mike Holstine is the business manager of the Green Bank Observatory. He's in Green Bank, West Virginia. And you can find out more about Green Bank on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Jagmeet Singh

KG: Jagmeet Singh put on a little parliamentary show of force today. Then reporters tried to force the NDP leader to show how much power his party actually has. Mr. Singh walked up to the mics after a morning meeting with Prime Minister Trudeau. They talked about how the Liberals are going to make a minority government work. Mr. Trudeau is going to need the support of MPs from the other parties to pass legislation. Depending on the issue that could be the Conservatives, the Bloc, the Greens, or the NDP. But the way Jagmeet Singh sees it, Justin Trudeau only has one good choice.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SINGH: If the Liberal government wants to move forward, they need to work with somebody. It's going to be us if it's a progressive thing, that's national, that's going to benefit all Canadians.

REPORTER: But he can work with the Bloc -- like you've heard this a number of times, the Bloc is not against things that benefit the rest of Canada if it benefits Quebec.

JAGMEET SINGH: They made it clear that's not their priority, though. It's my priority. My priority is to do things that benefit all Canadians. It's not the Bloc's priority. They're not a national party. They're not a national party. If they want to do something that's national, if they want to develop something that's going to benefit all Canadians, it's us.

REPORTER: That actually is not how parliament works Mr. Singh though.

JAGMEET SINGH: That's the reality. You don't have to accept the reality but that's what it is.

REPORTER: Well actually, it's not. If they have support from 30 or so MPs from the Bloc, they can go ahead with whatever they want. And no one says that the Bloc would oppose any of your priorities. So I understand that your pitch is that you're the only national progressive party. But in reality...

JAGMEET SINGH: That is just a fact though, right?

REPORTER: Yeah, but in reality they don't need you. You seem to not want to recognize that.

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, they can do whatever they want. I'm saying if they want to deliver something that's national and progressive, the Conservatives are not going to be the option. If they want to deliver something that's going to help Canadians out across this country and it talks about universal pharmacare or national dental care, we're the only party that are talking about that. We're the only people that have put forward that as a priority. So if the Liberals want to do that, obviously they're going to have to make a choice. I'm hoping that they're prepared to work with us.

REPORTER: If it does come down to your party though, are you realistically in any position to trigger an election right now?

JAGMEET SINGH: For me -- I mean, we know that the government is going to need our support at some level if they want to pass bills, that are national, they are going to need our support. And I want to make it clear that they can't just expect us to support unless they do things that show a commitment to deliver for Canadians. So I know that in this parliament they're going to need to work with us. I know that they're going to have opportunities that they're going to need you New Democrats to vote for a bill. I want to make it clear that that's not going to come for free. That's going to come with clear commitments to doing something is going to benefit Canadians lives.

REPORTER: But is the NDP in any shape to go back into a campaign right now?

JAGMEET SINGH: I'm ready. I'm ready anytime.

REPORTER: So is it possible you could vote against the throne speech?

JAGMEET SINGH: Yes.

KG: That was NDP leader Jagmeet Singh speaking to reporters this morning in Ottawa.

Sound of the Day: Mysterious Howling

KG: When Gino Meekis hunting for grouse with his wife and grandson, they stumbled upon something disturbing. It wasn't something they could see. It was something they heard. So Mr. Meekis took out his phone and started recording what could be described as an "echoing howl." He guessed it was a moose. But as the howling went on, he became less certain and more creeped out. So like most people who are looking for an answer, he turned to the Internet. Last month, he posted two videos he recorded in the woods near his home in Sioux Lookout, Northern Ontario. Since then, comments have flooded in. Some people think it sounds like a mountain lion, or wolf. Others are fairly convinced it's a definite example of a relatively rare woodland phenomenon: a grieving Sasquatch. Listen for yourself. It's our Sound of the Day.

SOUNDCLIP

[Howling sound]

KG: The echoing sound of a mysterious mammal or supernatural creature in a forest in Sioux Lookout, Ontario. It's our Sound of the Day.

[Music]

Theresa Byra

KG: Two roofers were working on an apartment roof in Selkirk, Manitoba, when they heard something. The pair investigated the sound and walked down to the Red River. That's when they realized the sound was coming from a woman who was in the frozen river and yelling for help. She'd fallen through the ice. That woman was Theresa Byra. She spoke with CBC Radio Noon about how she ended up in the river and about the two men who came to her rescue.

SOUNDCLIP

THERESA BYRA: I was trying to take some pictures of the water. One of my direct support worker with Inclusion Selkirk -- one of my lady's died, and I was trying to take pictures for her collage to take to the funeral. And I slipped on ice. My phone went one way and the water was open where I fell. And it just carried me like probably 20 or 30 feet with the current I am guessing. I was coming and it was thin ice and it pushed me against the concrete wall. And I was able to grab onto the wall. It was a very icy and hard to hang on to. And then I kept screaming and crying for help. "Help! Please" Just crying. And then I seen the boys coming down the hill and I looked over my shoulder and the bigger -- the big-huge chunks were starting to come. And I was praying, please make it. And thank God they made it. And they pulled me out by my arm. If the ice didn't push me against the wall, I would have been gone. The current would have took me. And I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for those boys to get down there so quickly.

MARJORIE DOWHOS: I understand that you went back to the job site the next day to see them. What did you say to them?

THERESA BYRA: Oh, I wanted to thank them. I was giving them hugs. I introduced them to my daughter. She was in the car with her 15-month-old little baby. And I introduced them. I said this is what you saved me for: my grandkids still have me. I have four. You saved me with them. And you guys are my heroes. You're my guardian angels.

KG: That was Theresa Byra. She was speaking with CBC host Marjorie Dowhos today. On Tuesday, Ms. Byra was rescued from the Red River in Selkirk, Manitoba, by Mike Girardin and Jesse Reimer.

[Music]

Part 3: Anti-Trump books keep 'going missing' at an Idaho library, says director

Venice flooding

Guest: Simone Venturini

KG: This morning, sirens rang out in Venice, warning people that high tides will return to the city in the coming days. In the meantime, the water has receded after engulfing the city earlier this week -- damaging homes, businesses, and countless historic buildings. Two people have lost their lives as a result of the flooding. The Italian prime minister visited the area today and is promising emergency measures to help people recover. Simone Venturini has been pushing for that help. He's a deputy mayor in Venice.

CO: Mr. Venturini, first of all, can you just paint us a picture of what you can see? What does it look like out in the streets of Venice?

SIMONE VENTURINI: So in Venice now there is a lot of trash because all the people emptied their ground floor. There is no more flooded ground. No more problem now with the high tide. We are counting the damages.

CO: I saw pictures earlier of tourists who are floating their suitcases and everyone wearing their boots and just hotel lobbies full of water. Has that water now receded?

SV: Yeah. There is no more water. There is some provision of high tide for tomorrow morning of around 11 -- half past 11. But the city now is full of people. We can leave, we can walk, we can have a coffee too. But there are still a lot of damages. The biggest problem for Venice now is to think about the future. As 30 years that the people of Venice ask for more power, special power, to rule Venice to our government. But our national government in 30 years has not yet decided to give more power to Venice to rule the city.

CO: I want to ask you a bit more of that in a moment. But just explain to us why this was such a huge flood. I mean there was a full moon, there was a high tide, but it was an unusually high amount of water. I mean a record amount. So what caused that?

SV: There is a lot of high tide. Yes. But a lot of wind. The wind was the killing factor of this crimes. Perfect crime. Very perfect murder.

CO: Right. But certainly you've had in Venice lots of wind, you've had rain, you've had high tides, you've had full moons -- all of that together. The culprit that the people are pointing to in this crime is the developments of climate change. Do you agree with that?

SV: Oh, sure. There is a lot of problem coming from the climate changes. And the next year will be worse. So this is a big problem for us because Venice is maybe the most affected city by the climate changes. So, yes, it's a big ingredient also to this problem. Yes.

CO: People, of course, in Venice are talking about how much damage was done. This is saltwater -- so very corrosive. You have extraordinary buildings and works of art. You have a marble. You have frescoes. What's the damage as far as you can see to this flooding?

SV: There are very very big damages in the churches, St. Mark's church -- in all of St Mark's square. In the libraries because we have some antique libraries in Venice full of documents, full of ancient books, so this is a big problem for us. And all the electrical system of the museum and library and church can be affected by this salted water.

CO: What about people's homes and their businesses? How much damage do you estimate?

SV: Our mayor talk about 1 billion euro for start. But the most important damage is to people's moral, is to people's life. Because it's not a problem only about cleaning up, about the computer, about the books -- it's a problem about the life in Venice because we can not to see the end about this problem. It's not a one-time flooding like in the river. In Venice we fully acknowledge, but is not the end. It is next year, next month, next week -- it can happen again.

CO: You had said that the government is not giving you the power or the ability to deal with this, because obviously as you point out, this is not going to stop in Venice. So you are trying to actually protect the city, to build barricades. Can you tell us what you're hoping to be able to do?

SV: So we have a big dam in the floor of the sea -- between the sea and the lagoon in Venice. It is MOSE. And the MOSE is a system that will keep Venice safe from the high tides. It has been 20 years since the construction of MOSE began. Venetians and Italians pay 200 billions of euro for MOSE, and it is still not working and it is still not finished. The first thing to do is finish MOSE.

CO: As you point out, MOSE -- this is a big problem, isn't it? Because it was supposed to have been ready. It's been plagued by corruption, bribery allegations. And you don't expect it to be operational for another two or three years, right? So what do you do in the meantime? Because these floods are not going to stop.

SV: In the meantime, we have to work like this because there is no miraculous recipe. We have to fight. We have to improve our system of first responding. We have to work on the heritage safe. But we have to finish MOSE. And we have to hope that MOSE will work because nobody knows if it will work. And then we have to receive from our government the resources necessary to maintain Venice. It's not an ordinary city with an ordinary balance and an ordinary financial income.

CO: This is the second highest tide in recorded history for Venice. And many of the highest tides in the past years have been recently -- just last year you had one of these. So how worried are you about this beautiful city of yours?

SV: A lot. And I think that is not a problem only for Venetian. I think it is a global problem. It is like an ancient lady Venice -- we always say that we need to respect her, we need to give her what she deserves.

CO: Mr. Venturini we all hope that Venice survives this and you can restore it because it's a beautiful city. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SV: Yeah. Thank you very much.

KG: Simone Venturini is a deputy mayor of Venice, which is where we reached him.

[Music]

Birthday surprise

KG: All Chase Olesen wanted for his birthday was a garbage truck. And his mother, Amanda, wasn't about to spring for one. No room in the driveway. Plus, Chase doesn't have his driver's license, let alone his commercial driver's license. He was about to turn 4 after all. So Amanda wrote a letter to the local manager of a waste disposal company in Morinville, Alberta. And on Chase's birthday on Wednesday, the local waste wizards came through with a very special surprise. Chase and Amanda spoke with the CBC's Tara McCarthy earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

AMANDA OLESEN: Well, we were just having a little birthday party for our little guy who is turning 4. And we were just about ready to have cake and stuff. And then we gathered everybody up by the door and kind of looked out the window. And there was, you know, we seen two garbage trucks. And then there were four garbage trucks. And then there was 11 altogether [laughs]. So once we got outside and looked up and down the street, it was quite a moment.

TARA MCCARTHY: How long has Chase been into garbage trucks?

AMANDA OLESEN: Well, ever since -- I don't know -- one. Like you know when he could walk and talk -- things like that. He love the garbage trucks. Loves them. And he just recently started pre-kindergarten. And so he was upset because he misses the garbage truck come by in the mornings and things. And, you know, this way he was so excited.

TARA MCCARTHY: Now, I'd love to talk to Chase, Amanda, if he's there.

AMANDA OLESEN: Yes. Chase is right here. One moment.

CHASE OLESEN: Hi.

TARA MCCARTHY: Hi, Chase. Happy birthday.

CHASE OLESEN: Thank you.

TARA MCCARTHY: What was the best part of your birthday party yesterday?

CHASE OLESEN: The garbage truck.

TARA MCCARTHY: Now, why is it you like garbage trucks so much?

CHASE OLESEN: Because they pick up garbage.

TARA MCCARTHY: So do you often watch as the garbage trucks come outside your house?

CHASE OLESEN: Uh huh.

TARA MCCARTHY: So what did it mean to you to see a garbage truck -- actually, many garbage trucks -- pull up to your house for your birthday?

CHASE OLESEN: Cool.

TARA MCCARTHY: It was cool. Great. Well, happy birthday buddy.

CHASE OLESEN: Thank you.

TARA MCCARTHY: [Laughs] Now, Amanda, what's that going to be like? How can you top this next year?

AMANDA OLESEN: [Laughs] That's the difficult part because I don't think we're are ever going to be able to top that one.

KG: That was birthday boy Chase, and his mom, Amanda Oleson, speaking to CBC Edmonton.

[Music]

Reading: Reproduction

KG: In just a few days, one of six Canadian authors will be 100,000 dollars richer. The 2019 Scotiabank Giller Prize will be awarded on Monday. And in the meantime, we've been featuring readings from all the contenders. Tonight's comes from Ian Williams, whose book "Reproduction" looks at where family comes from and what happens when the answer to that question is an unconventional one. In this excerpt from his novel, a young boy named Riot asks his older brother figure, Army, some tough questions about their family.

SOUNDCLIP

IAN WILLIAMS: Look! What's this? A picture. I got eyes little man. Of what? Of us. Mutter is my mom. I know. But is pop-pop my dad? Pop-pop is your pop-pop. My real dad or my biological dad? Real. But Logan said pop-pop is too old to be my dad, so he must be my grandpa. Probably. How probably? How could he be my grandpa and my real dad? Because he's your pop-pop. I'm not crying. I was just kidding. Nobody dropped you from the sky. Then where did you find me? In a box in the garage. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Riot. We didn't find you anywhere. You were born just like a normal person. How's that? You know what? Go to pop-pop upstairs and ask him that. What happened to Mutter's skin? Nothing. She's darker than everybody else. Why did she change it? She didn't change it. Maybe you changed yours. Did I? I don't know. Can I change it back to like Mutter's? Try this summer. Logan was... Listen you have got to stop talking to this Logan kid. Logan was saying that Mutter wasn't my real mom. He's an idiot. You can't listen to anything he says. He knows stuff, though. He eats his hair you told me that. Only because it makes it grow back. But listen, Army, Logan said Mutter can't be my real mom because she's black. And I told him she wasn't black. She was brown. And then he said he was white and I was white. And I said, no, he was pink. But then he said his mom said that Mutter was black and that you were half black like gray. But I don't even know when was the last time his mother saw Mutter. Let's everybody go around the table and say who their biological mother is. How about where instead? Okay, where? I'll go first because I'm easy. Mine is in the movies.

KG: Ian Williams reading from his novel "Reproduction." That's one of six books that could win the 2019 Giller Prize on Monday. For more on all the nominees and details on how to tune in visit: cbcbooks.ca

[Music]

Idaho library book tampering

Guest: Bette Ammon

KG: Lately, Bette Ammon has been watching the non-fiction stacks in her public library more keenly than before. She's the director of the library in Coeur D'Alene, Idaho. And she's been trying to catch a glimpse of the person who's been hiding books. As in taking them off the shelf and stashing them where no other patrons could possibly find them. The culprit has been in touch and looks like he or she has a bit of an agenda. We reached Bette Ammon at her home in Coeur D'Alene, Idaho.

CO: Bette, when did you start to realize that books in your library were not exactly where they were supposed to be?

BETTE AMMON: Well, in the summer of 2018 books started going missing. Books that were -- current books -- on political issues. And then we received patron comment card telling us that this person was hiding certain books so that others couldn't read them.

CO: Did you know? Did you find where they were being hidden?

BA: Well, we would accidentally stumble on some. But once we got the comment card, it all kind of gelled for us. And we realized that this was a deliberate attempt. So we started looking in earnest.

CO: And what were some of the books that were being hidden?

BA: Well, one book was "Commander-in-Chief" by Rick Reilly. A book about golfing.

CO: And Donald Trump.

BA: And one book was "Fire and Fury" the Michael Wolff book. And just a variety of books -- not only on political issues, but on immigration, and gun control, LGBTQ issues and so on.

CO: And what did these books have in common as far as you could figure out?

BA: Well, it seems to be that they offended somebody with a more conservative outlook.

CO: Yes, I would say. But a lot of the books were critical of Donald Trump. But not all, right?

BA: Correct.

CO: And there was one: "The Hidden History of Guns and the Second Amendment." Right?

BA: That was just last week.

CO: And so you received, as you said, a letter-a note in the comments, "I'm going to continue hiding these books in the most obscure places I can find to keep this propaganda out of the hands of young minds."

BA: Yes, that's exactly what it said.

CO: And then further to it, your liberal angst gives me great pleasure. And now this is not the first time that you've had this problem -- well, not in a long time, but there's a history of this, right, in your library?

BA: Well, yeah. Long before my time here, in the 90s there were incidents including of white supremacy movement that was quickly squashed by readily developed Human Rights Education Institute. And in fact, the library at that time received the Raoul Wallenberg award and a number of human rights books. And so the library at that time had a collection of books about the Holocaust, about civil rights, slavery. And my understanding is that some of those books were stolen. So the library director locked them up, put them in glass cases -- and request them if they wanted to read them.

CO: And so when you got there, you decided that those books had to be sprung, right?

BA: Yeah. [Laughs] Yes. I think that any obstacle you put between the reader and the book is not a good thing. And a lot of times people won't ask to have something unlocked. So we integrated those books into the regular collection.

CO: Their complaints are that why don't you have books from the other -- why are all these books in the library from the liberal side, the progressive side? Do you have a wide range or wide variety of books in your library?

BA: Oh we do. We have a real specific collection development plan and we buy books on all kinds of topics. We buy books that receive good reviews. And we have a range of people in our community that we like to serve.

CO: What has been the reaction in your town because there was news coverage of this -- what are people saying to you?

BA: Predominantly people are horrified, and they're sending book donations. And I got a donation from New Mexico -- a variety of LGBTQ books. We've had donations of money. Somebody sent 50 dollars last week so we could buy pocket editions of the Constitution and hope that somebody would steal them. [Laughter]

CO: Now, just on the subject of this public reaction, last week there was news of a local county government in Florida that refused the library's request for funding to pay for The New York Times -- for a subscription. The county government said it was fake news. Is it difficult being a librarian these days?

BA: You know, it shouldn't be. I think sometimes in some communities it might be. I think we're a pretty honorable, steadfast profession. And mostly libraries are protected from policy makers. Most library board work standing between library services and whatever legislative whims are going on. So generally, libraries have been able to make decisions on their own about what they purchase. And I think for the most part, that still stands. The Florida example, if it's true, it's really disturbing.

CO: Do you think that you -- with all the publicity -- that you will see few of your books migrating to other places in the future?

BA: You know, I thought that was the case after the September publicity. But the fact that we found one last week [chuckles] I just don't know. But we do have one of the authors of one of the books "Commander in Chief" the Rick Reilly book -- he's coming next week to do a program here. And he's planning to hide 10 copies of his book.

CO: To hide 10 copies. [Laughs]

BA: Yeah so people can find autographed copies.

CO: All right. Well, that sounds like it's going to be interesting. Bette I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BA: Oh, you're welcome.

KG: Bette Ammon is the director of the Coeur D'Alene public library in Coeur D'Alene Idaho.

[Music]

CO: We are at the end of this edition of As It Happens. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One. And if you want to listen to our program live or on demand anytime, make sure you download the CBC Listen app. I'm Carol Off. Thanks for listening.

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November 14, 2019 Episode Transcript

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