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The Current Transcript for November 14, 2019

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

Here in Alberta, you have a government that has your back that will fight without relent for the future of the women and men who work in Alberta's oil and gas sector.

LAURA LYNCH: Alberta Premier Jason Kenney's fighting words growing ever louder since Justin Trudeau's liberals returned to power in Ottawa last month. Now include potentially reshaping Alberta, its own police force, its own pension plan, among other ideas. First up, a panel of Albertans are coming together to talk about what the province wants and needs. Then we'll check in on two places in the world struggling with flood and fire, Venice and Australia as they battle the elements. And after that:

SOUNDCLIP

This is a really historic moment for Qantas, a really historic moment for Australian aviation and a really historic moment for world aviation.

LL: The CEO of Quantas Airlines is excited about something that many of us might dread: 20 straight hours in a plane. We'll speak with a reporter who tried the long haul. I'm Laura Lynch, and this is the current.

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Premier Jason Kenney’s Fair Deal Panel

Guests: Martha Hall Findlay, Sandip Lalli, Ted Morton

SOUNDCLIP

We are going to be very bold in imagining every way that we can assert ourselves and our fight for fairness in the federation.

LL: Alberta Premier Jason Kenney is promising to be bold, starting with this announcement.

SOUNDCLIP

Our government is appointing a panel of Albertans to consult with their fellow citizens on achieving a fair deal in the federation. So a tremendous, diverse, committed group of Albertans. Please give them a round of applause for taking this on.

[Applause]

LL: This fair deal panel, the government has announced is already has things to consider whether to withdraw from the Canada Pension Plan in favour of a provincial system, whether to create an Alberta police force to replace the RCMP, and whether the province can take control over federal tax collection. All those ideas have Albertans talking.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Instead of diversifying the economy and being proactive on alternative energy, they are just riling up their base with these crazy ideas that's just cost us a lot of money.

VOICE 2: Yes, I believe. Let's look at equalisation. Let's have a conversation.

VOICE 3: I think that the police force, if we move to an Alberta provincial police force, would keep a lot more jobs here. We would hire more Albertans. It would help make sure that the agenda's within the police force were Alberta driven. We wouldn't have so much direction coming from a centralized place. And again, our firing practices and policies would reflect the best interests of Albertans.

LL: Some callers to CBC Radio One's Alberta at noon yesterday to talk about the premier's panel and the sentiments driving it. I'm joined now by three people. Martha Hall Findlay is president and CEO of the Canada West Foundation in Calgary. Today, she's in Montreal. Sandip Lalli is president and CEO of the Calgary Chamber of Commerce. She's in Calgary. And Ted Morton is a former Alberta finance minister, now an executive fellow at the University of Calgary School of Public Policy. He's in Whitefish, Montana today. Hello to all of you.

GUESTS: Good morning.

LL: Martha Hall Findlay, let's start with you. How much merit do you see in Premier Kenny's Fair Deal panel?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Well, listen, he was elected with a significant majority there. And a lot of a lot of his constituents have been asking for things like this. I think the fact that he has not come out and said this is what we're going to do, but rather appoint a panel of some very thoughtful people because there are some very thoughtful people on that panel. So rather than say this is what we're going to do, establish a panel to at least explore them is responding to an awful lot of his constituents, but allowing, as I said, a thoughtful process to be done. And then we'll see what happens.

LL: And that panel is going to include someone from your foundation. How confident are you, though, that a range of viewpoints will be fairly represented?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Just looking at the makeup of the panel. Yes, the chair of our board [unintelligible] has a long, long history in actually the history of the federation. Really, really thoughtful, very non-partisan. I mean, there there's a real mix on the panel. And I think in that regard they'll do a very good job.

LL: Ted Morton, you were one of the people who penned that so-called firewall letter proposing similar ideas back in 2001. Can you remind us what you called for in that letter?

TED MORTON: It was a combination of initiatives ranging from an Alberta provincial police force ending the contract with the RCMP, which has been in existence, a pulling out of the Canada Pension Plan and having the Alberta Pension Plan. Those were the some of the big ones and all of them were things that Quebec already does. So those are all actions that any province constitutionally has the legal authority to do.

LL: Now, the government of that day decided not to go ahead with any of that. Why do you think it's time to re-examine these ideas now?

TED MORTON: Well, of course, I thought it was a good idea 18 years ago, the [unintelligible] government didn't. 18 years ago, Alberta was prospering. The economy was growing. Unemployment was low. Foreign investment was pouring in. And why rock the boat when times are good? Today is, as you know very well, Alberta is hurting badly. One of the highest unemployment rates in Canada. I think Calgary has the highest unemployment rate for a city.

LL: Almost. It’s actually number three. But it's up there for sure.

TED MORTON: OK. Well, historically, you know, in my lifetime, the Alberta unemployment rate has always been in the four percent, three percent lowest in Canada. Now it's amongst the highest. An exodus of foreign capital. All the companies that came in 30, 20 years ago have left. Companies like in Canada that started off as Alberta Energy Company and now is calling itself some name I can't even remember. It has moved its offices to Denver. TransCanada Pipeline tries to pretend it's not Canadian anymore. It calls itself Casey Energy. But mainly it's a people issue the unemployment rate. And it sparked this huge outrage of anger, frustration and fear following the election. And I think Premier Kenney is trying to channel that. I think the idea of the panel is to channel that negative energy into some positive outcomes by striking this panel.

LL: Sandip Lalli, you've expressed concerns about this panel, why?

SANDIP LALLI: From chamber perspective and business environment like our concern is the investment climate. And when you have any thing that brings uncertainty into that, that's where we keep an eye on. So I think it's good that we're acknowledging the anger because that's real. Households are hurting, the industry is shrinking. And that's where I think, the politics aside of it, we need to focus on policy. And so to create that certainty. That's why we're watching this closely is to say we want to get to the business of business. So how is this going to provide that clarity and certainty? And so that's why we're watching it closely. But, you know, that sentiment, that anger, that frustration is rooted and not being heard and acted upon. So that's what we're looking for here is some action. And so if the business community can see there's a way forward to some consistency around regulation, some consistency to put some patient capital back into Alberta, that's why we're watching this closely.

LL: But what about the specific ideas of running Alberta's own pension plan or having an Alberta police force? What do you think of those?

SANDIP LALLI: Yes, so that's where I think, as Martha mentioned, like they're doing focus groups or they're calling it the panel. Like they're getting information. But I think it's a bit too early to say is this going to be beneficial or not? From a business perspective, if you're going to change the rules or you're potentially going to add more, you know, kind of cost into my business because you've created this extra layer of expense or extra layer of service into what I have to pay for it through my taxes as a business, then that's where that uncertainty comes from. So, I think that's where we'll find out more as as the group sort of forms its ideas that where we are holding is that, you know, the premier has said there'll be a referendum afterwards should any of this take shape. That's why I say we're watching it quite closely.

LL: OK. Martha Hall Findlay, there have been some concerns about this idea of creating more government bureaucracy and a concern that it would hurt Alberta's economy. What do you think about that?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: I have to say my gut reaction is similar to Sandip's in that regard. Alberta prides itself on not having more taxes. They want fewer taxes. And if you add layers of bureaucracy, I'm not sure what CPP or RCMP changes would do to enhance the underlying issue here. And that is that there are some very significant economic challenges. Where I would further focus, but this requires Ottawa and this is part of the problem is, that there is a limit to what Alberta can do unilaterally. The premier is making some noises. But the real issue is the economy and the real issue is the economic future. And I was really heartened by after the meeting that Prime Minister Trudeau had with premier Moe that the prime minister seemed open to further amendments to bills, C 69, which is now the new Impact Assessment Act. That to me, is critical to the future economic prospects. The fact of that new legislation which Alberta didn't have any control over has been absolutely key to investment fleeing. So not only is foreign investment dried up, but Canadian investment is going elsewhere. If the Prime Minister is open to further amendments to C69, C48 we referred to that as the only part of only one coast tanker ban, which frankly was indefensible. If that can be reversed, if there can be real openings on C69, I have to say Canada West Foundation, are really involved in a non-partisan way on those two pieces of legislation. We would love to be a partner to help find that solution because that's the future of Alberta's economy.

LL: OK, so Ted Morton, you hear Martha Hall Findlay there go straight to questions about Alberta's economy and how to fix the economy or stimulate it. Keep investment there. None of those have anything to do with the proposals that are out there that Jason Kenney has been talking about. So I wonder, to what extent are these proposals symbolic as opposed to actually meaningful change?

TED MORTON: I'd say they're both symbolic and meaningful. Sandip talked about more bureaucracy. I think most Albertans would rather have an Alberta bureaucracy than an Ottawa bureaucracy. The bilingualism requirements in Ottawa, of course, preclude 95 percent of Albertans even thinking about it. In terms of economic growth, an Alberta pension plan presumably would require lower premiums because of our younger workforce, higher rate of workforce participation, and lower premiums mean a better business climate there. So and also, of course, it creates a pinch in Ottawa if Alberta leaves. Who makes up the difference? I think that's a bargaining point that's an attempt to get some leverage with Mr. Trudeau. But as Martha said, at the end of the day, as Premier Kennedy said, what's caused the crisis, the economic crisis in Alberta, not the price of oil. It's policy. It's the energy pipeline policy, carbon tax policies coming out of Ottawa, that's what's driven away investment. And so part of this is creating a bargaining position for Alberta and for Premier Kenney to have a hopefully constructive dialogue with the prime minister to change some of these destructive policies.

LL: Similar ideas have been floated before. I just want you to listen to former progressive conservative MLA Doug Griffith. He was on the committee in 2003 that looked into these similar proposals.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm going to admit right up front that I was one of those guys as a fairly new MLA. And I I thought, you know, the firewall letter Alberta needs to stand up to the to the feds and find more independence and went in presuming we would do better with our own provincial police force, that Alberta should have its own pension plan and that way we can invest the dollars in Alberta. None of it when we went through made one bit of sense. I don't mean to pick on the premier, but honestly, he was in the federal government for 11 years and we didn't get that pipeline built. The transfer payments that he's mad about were set up when he was a minister in the government that set it up. I think this is all a distraction, trying to capitalize on the anger and frustration Albertans are feeling right now. And so to me, it's all about political expediency and not about practicality.

LL: Ted Morton, I'm wondering how you respond to that. I mean, you did just say that you think there's some meaningfulness attached to these proposals, but you also say it's leverage.

TED MORTON: Jason Kenney didn't create the anger, fear and frustration that is boiling over in Alberta and Saskatchewan since the since the federal election. What he's trying to do is channel that negative energy into a positive direction with the possibility of constructive reforms. And he wants- some of them are symbolic, but symbols count, some of them are strategic, trying to create some leverage. And again, I think I know Doug Griffith's pretty well. I like Doug. The idea of the Alberta pension plan was it was actually studied extensively in the late 90s, 2000s. There are pros and cons, but I think part of what the panel will do is the panel is going to just meet for the next, what, two months, basically, I think. The discussion over this will extend over the next year or so. And as Martha pointed out, at the end there's an insurance policy for Albertans here. At the end of the day, these decisions aren't going to be made just by Jason Kenney or just by the UCP caucus. Any of these major changes will go to a referendum, so all Albertans. And I think that's part of Jason's message and it's getting distorted by some of his critics. It's not a left, right or conservative liberal issue. All Albertans are in this together. And I think the referendum at the end of the day will give that assurance.

LL: Let's talk some more than about the sentiments, Ted. Morton, you just expressed an and Martha Hall Findlay. We hear we hear a lot about it lately. This idea of alienation and frustration and anger in Alberta. But for people outside the province, can you help us understand how real that sentiment is and what is driving it?

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: It is very real and it is worse than under the first Trudeau prime minister, I'm afraid to say. It is it is worse, partly because it is broader. It is not just one person that the anger is not focussed just at one person that's not focussed on just one thing. It is broader and it is deeper because it is not just one program. It is a sense, in this I go back to legislation such as Bill C 69 and C 48. If those pieces of legislation had been proposed before the James Bay hydroelectric project had been built in Quebec, then that would not have happened. Or imagine not even those pieces of legislation, if Ottawa had had proposed and passed any legislation that would have prevented the hydroelectric project that has been so critical to Quebec because, you know, damming and flooding rivers is an environmentally bad. We totally get that. But can you imagine the reaction if Ottawa had made a decision that had that kind of effect on on the province in the future? And this is the key to future economic aspirations of that of that province in that region. It would have been just disastrous. That's what C 69 and C 48 feel like to Alberta, Saskatchewan. And frankly, anyone who is proposing or thinking of proposing any major infrastructure project, even if it's not related to energy. I think Premier Pallister Manitoba wrote a piece a little while ago talking about flood mitigation and this legislation has major effects on these regions and there is a very strong sense that there was not nearly enough. You know, there's a difference between consultation and actually just telling people this is going to happen. And very much the sense was that it was the latter. So if the prime minister is open to reopening those pieces of legislation. My preference would be let's work on that.

LL: Sandip Lalli, other ways of addressing the kinds of sentiments that Martha Hall, Findlay says are out there and that are real?

SANDIP LALLI: Yes. No, they're definitely real and it's just increasing frustration and they are worse. I think it's because we're not focussing on the solutions. Like Alberta will propose a solution for our natural resources and fighting climate change. And then it doesn't move anywhere. So we've been very much about being solution oriented. But then the solutions don't get any legs to them or we get dismissed that, oh, Alberta only wants a pipeline. It's not that. We are part of the solution. We are wanting to develop our natural resources and flight climate change. We are doing those things. And so when we propose a solution to move the country forward, have bilateral conversations with our neighbours, Ontario, Quebec, like we've been able to put together a metro cities, eight chambers across the country, to put it further, a partnership that's driving the solutions. But we need to gain momentum and that takes both levels of government. And that's where the frustration. And that's why it keeps getting worse, because it's like, where's the end in sight? We're doing great things that don't get there. So that's where this premier, I think has gained his ground, is because he got elected on the platform based on getting the economy back. And so they've done some good things on that, you know, with the fiscal responsibility, things like this and internal trade barriers. But when it comes down to our industries, we're not able to get to that next step. So if we can't see light at the end, that's where this frustration keeps bubbling.

LL: But Sandip, I'm wondering if you are concerned that the panel like this could fuel rather than quell those feelings of anger and alienation?

SANDIP LALLI: Yes. So that's why we're watching it closely, is to make sure that it remains solution oriented and pulls our economy forward, because that's the piece we don't want to happen, is for it to get us distracted as that. We want to be moving forward. And so that's why we're watching particularly this panel closely, is to say, how are we being solution oriented and to what end? And how does this move our economy forward? Let's put our politics aside. Focus on policy that gets Alberta in Calgary and Canada, quite frankly, on that scale of fighting climate change, because we are doing that from here and we're getting in our way.

LL: Ted Morton, we've only got about 20 seconds left. Do you actually expect any of these proposals to see the light of day?

TED MORTON: I think some will, and I think that there has to be an internal dialogue in Alberta about these options that I think will go forward. And then there has to be the dialogue between Alberta and the government in Ottawa about some, not just policy changes, but structural changes that address- what's happening is basically the destruction of Alberta's economy.

LL: We have to leave it there. Thank you so much to all three of you.

TED MORTON: Thank you.

MARTHA HALL FINDLAY: Thanks, Laura.

SANDIP LALLI: Welcome.

LL: Martha Hall Findlay is president and CEO of the Canada West Foundation based in Calgary. Sandip Lalli is president and CEO of the Calgary Chamber of Commerce. And Ted Morton is a former Alberta Cabinet minister, now an executive fellow at the University of Calgary School of Public Policy. The CBC News is coming up next. And then:

SOUNDCLIP

The shops were devastated. The stuff, all the clothing, all the things on the shelves in the grocery stores was in a very bad situation. Very devastating.

LL: Venice of courses is used to floods of tourists and even some high water levels. But when the tides came in this week, they brought the worst flooding in decades. That story in our next half hour. I'm Laura Lynch. You're listening to The Current.

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Venice

Guests: Luisella Romeo, Jane da Mosto, Francesco da Mosto

LL: Hello, I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

LL: Still to come, we'll find out what it's like to spend 20 hours in a plane, but it will take us only about 45 minutes to get to that story. First, though, another favourite travel destination. This one in deep trouble.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Sirens]

LL: The eerie sound of Venice's sirens warning of a coming Aqua Alta. Residents know all too well what's about to happen. High tides will fill the streets with water. Flooding is nothing new to the coastal Italian city, but this year's occurrence is the second highest in recorded history with about six feet or two meters of water.

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[Sound: Water]

LL: Polluted water laps at the steps of St. Mark's Basilica and swirls around marble tombs inside the 12th century crypt. The mayor tweeted it's been seriously damaged along with many other sites in the city. The repairs are expected to cost hundreds of millions of euros. There are news reports that two people died due in part to high water levels. A state of emergency has been declared and yet the tourists still come.

SOUNDCLIP

I had to look fashionable in Venice when just hopping around in the rain. But still a beautiful experience being in Venice.

LL: Luisella Romeo is a tour guide in Venice and that's where we've reached her. Hello.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Hello.

LL: Can you take us back to when you first became aware of the flooding? What was it like? What happened?

LUISELLA ROMEO: We knew that it would be very high as we have an app in Venice, which we all use on our smartphones and tablets. And it said that by 11:00 p.m., it would be around 1.45 meter or so, around 80 centimetres of water by St. Mark's church. The entrance of a church is the lowest point in the city. So that showed how dangerous it would be. So we made all sure to be home before the tide of started getting a problem. But everyone that had a coffee, a restaurant, a store, a shop, anything on ground floor was there on the water with their water gates at the doors waiting for the time.

LL: How strong were the winds?

LUISELLA ROMEO: It was amazing because, you know, in the city you are getting protected by buildings. But the sea was really strong, a strong wind. Anyone on that [unintelligible], rising one minute after the other. And you could check on the high tide app how it was going till 10:30 when all of a sudden it got really, really strong. And chatting with friends on whatsapp, Facebook, and phone calls, they were overlapping one after the other and everybody realized I think in 10 minutes, the water rose to the level I had never expected to experience in my life.

LL: And did you go downstairs to have a look?

LUISELLA ROMEO: No, it's impossible. Downstairs completely flooded. The street outside looked like a river. I mean, everybody realized that it was going to be a very dangerous decision to go anywhere. And why? Just to show. I mean, just to see. If you were by St. Mark's Square, the wind was incredible. I had some clients has been at [unintelligible] opposite San Giorgio next to St. Mark's Square. And they had the window of the hotel crashed in a big wave and the gondolas were all landing from the waterfront where they're docked onto the street. So I'm sure that you saw the photo of the water taxi, the lever that like 50 meters inside the street. I mean, it would have been really, really dangerous to be out there.

LL: Have you ever seen flooding like this in Venice?

LUISELLA ROMEO: The last time it happened, very close to what we reached was in 1966. I was not born then. And my mom told me in 1966 they got seven centimetres higher. But the wind was incredible because it kept on blowing and pushing water from the Adriatic Sea into the lagoon of Venice for three days. So it never receded, whereas we had the lock at 11:00, and I remember the joy. Everybody said, oh, it's going down, it's going down. All of a sudden, the wind helped. And so by eleven thirty the tide was strongly leaving the lagoon, which saved us from what had happened in 1966. So that's the difference.

LL: Was there enough food for everyone?

LUISELLA ROMEO: The supermarkets in my area are still closed. So last night, desperate for food, I searched for one and we found the supermarket not too far from Rialto. And it seems the whole city was in this supermarket, not really waiting a long line to buy some groceries or anything. Anyway, this morning this morning, I went to the Rialto market and did my best to buy stuff there because it's very important now to support all these people that have experienced the damages.

LL: Of course. Yes, I know. It must be a very difficult situation for everyone. Luisella, please take care of yourself in the days dragged forward. Thank you for talking to us.

LUISELLA ROMEO: And I hope tomorrow won't be back. That's our fear. That's what really scares us. Tomorrow there will be, again, strong wind and heavy rain. So tomorrow morning, we hope the forecasts will be wrong.

LL: Best of luck, Luisella. Thank you.

LUISELLA ROMEO: Thank you so much. Bye bye.

LL: Luisella Romeo is a tour guide in Venice. Rising floodwaters are just one of the issues threatening the survival of the floating city. Jane da Mosto is an environmental scientist and the executive director of the think tank, an advocacy group. We are Here, Venice. We have reached her in Venice. Hello.

JANE DA MOSTO: Good morning.

LL: To what extent do you think climate change is to blame for this level of flooding?

JANE DA MOSTO: Nobody can attribute a single event like the climate crisis because climate is one thing and day to day meteorology is another. But of course, events like this are a clear signal that the patterns are changing because several days events, several episodes, you know, come together to show a climate pattern. And something like what happened two days ago is evidence that there's different elements in the pattern.

LL: Right, and since Venice sits on the sea and the evidence says that the sea is rising, what can be done?

JANE DA MOSTO: If you compare the situation today to the situation in 1966 when when there was the other great flooding event, the average water level in Venice is 10, 11 centimetres higher. So it's a significant difference.

LL: When it comes to mitigation measures, we know that Venice has a multi-billion dollar anti-flood system that is supposed to be operational in 2022. It's been dogged by a lot of delays. But if it is built, how much would it help to stave off the flooding?

JANE DA MOSTO: It's not a question of building it. That's what all the politicians keep talking about is finishing building it. But I'd like to hear them talk about having a functioning flood defence system. If there is more or less concrete poured into the sea, that's not the point. The point is, is there a system approach to protecting Venice from extreme flooding? And how does this fit with the local economy of Venice, but today while we're speaking depends significantly on port activities.

LL: What would actually work in your mind to stop the rising tides? Or does it simply a matter of not being able to do them?

JANE DA MOSTO: The only way to protect Venice from flooding is with flood defences. You need to block the water coming in from the Adriatic Sea. There are other things that can be done to restore the Venice lagoon system, to reduce kind of chronic flooding, which is the way that the water's creeping up the sides of the buildings on, you know, relatively normal weather conditions. And that depends on expanding the wetlands in the Venice Lagoon, because wetlands are like sponges to incoming tides and they can slow down the flow of the water from the sea into the historic centre of the lagoon. That's just as important as having the flood defences now.

LL: But there are other issues for us, aside from dealing with these kinds of situations. What other threats is the city facing?

JANE DA MOSTO: The city is facing a serious threat in terms of its declining population. You can't think of Venice as a, you know, empty theme park. Venice is so beautiful. Venice is so inspiring because it has a vibrant social fabric. And I think this is just as serious a threat to the future of Venice as the lack of flood barriers is making this city unlivable in certain ways. It all boils down to the way that Venice is governed. Not many people outside of Venice know that for the past, maybe 80 years, Venice has been stuck on to the edge of another municipal administration, so Venice is governed as a part of a bigger conglomeration that includes the city of [unintelligible] on the mainland. There's no there's no local administration that just thinks about the specificities of Venice and how best to look after it. And that's where we think the solution lies.

LL: Jane, so then what will what do you think needs to happen most immediately? I'm talking within the next few months to be able to help save the city that I love.

JANE DA MOSTO: In an ideal world, in the next few months, Venice will be able to have a team looking after it that's free to think just what's best for Venice. The first thing that teams should do is put together a task force of experts to try and assess what how much has been done really on the mobile barrier infrastructure. What are the critical issues to do with that? What's working, what's not? Why is it all rusted? Whereas the sand accumulating? What are the best types of energy supply they can get to to make a flood defence system work? And then they can then re-engineer as quickly as possible at a different flood defence system. But taking advantage of what's already been done.

LL: All right, Jane, I thank you and I wish you good luck in the days and weeks and months ahead.

JANE DA MOSTO: Thank you.

LL: Jane Da Masto is an environmental scientist and the executive director of the think tank, an advocacy group. We are Here, Venice. Well, there are many reasons why Venice captures the imagination of up to 30 million tourists a year. Few know that better than Francesco da Mosto. He is an architect, historian and the presenter of several BBC television series, including Francesco's Venice. His family has lived in the city for more than 1000 years, and he also happens to be the husband of our last guest, Jane de Mosto. And we reached Francesco da Mosto in Venice. Hello.

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: How are you?

LL: I'm fine, thank you. Can you tell us in your mind what makes Venice so magical?

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: I think that Venice is so magical because it is something that started with just a strong community that decides to move into a very inhospitable place. And from there, in tune with the lagoon, they managed to create something like a golden goose. It's something that we have to think how the ancient were working and it's still all standing now, but now it's in danger.

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: Can you remind us of Venice's historical significance to the world?

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: I think that Venice is one of the older places that much more than the other because they had the chance to the trade and the market. They had the knowledge of other places that were around. So many ideas that were coming from Venice, Venice in a certain moment of the world. Was the door between east and West. It was a place where all the people were meeting, were coming to make things, to make money. But these were all these years were passing by. And still today, Venice has to see like a place where you can exchange ideas. I think it's an example of how to live. There is the beauty, there is the art, but there is about is something that is the relationship that we do in the people.

LL: So tell me why it was important for you to raise your own children in Venice.

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: There are a lot of rules that are inside our way of living that it's important that they learn. And if Venice is going to disappear because humans are not treating well the treasure they have, it is good that they learn what it was. And it's where the examples of the future if you want to have a future that exist.

LL: Tell me what those kinds of rules are.

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: Those rules were quite important in the life of the Venetians. There were some rules are related to the keeping Venice and the lagoon safe. It was more important as a group than to make money as individuals because Venice started as a group of people that has to survive. If we lose this idea of team in which we are working together, that is what is going to be lost. It's like in a football team, you try to make your best and you're also sacrificing parts of your game. But this is the only way to go on and that they think what they got more from the history of Venice that I will like that way children learn is that spirit of a team that we have to work together to try to go along together. Now we have a mayor that is from the land, is thinking to make new channels, to put more ships inside the lagoon so they get more tourists in the town. When we don't have people living anymore in the town because we have too many tourists.

LL: I wonder when it comes right down to this, how are you worried, are you, about Venice's actual survival?

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: We are not in this situation like some island in Polynesia that they are going under the water. We had the chance. We had our chances. I was five years old when I saw the first flood. And the only thing that is working differently is we have musical sirens that tell us that the water is arriving. This is what has been done in 50 years.

LL: Your family's been there such a long time, though it suggests to me that that the Venetians are strong, resilient people.

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: We live in the water, that we are born here. We know that can arrive. But we are on the borderline. Nature is telling us that we are on the borderline. We are playing too much, we I think we have to think. Now the Venetian are gone. We have people that- there are lobbies that are controlling the boat, the cruise ship. There are too many interests from outside that are not thinking that this way we are going to use very fast the treasurer of Venice.

LL: What does the world lose if, as you call it, the treasure of Venice is lost?

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: We are going to lose an example of a place that is completely different from other ones, is that we don't have the respect to what the ancient have done and is resisting for more than 1000 years. And in one generation, we are nearly trying to make it disappear.

LL: Francesco, thank you very much for your time and please take care of yourself.

FRANCESCO DA MOSTO: Thanks so much.

LL: Francesco Da Mosto is an architect, author, historian and the presenter of several BBC television series, including Francesca's Venice. We reached him in Venice.

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Volunteer firefighter explains why being 14 weeks pregnant won't stop her battling Australia wildfires

Guests: Kat robinson Williams, Andrew Coghlan

[Music]

LL: I'm Laura Lynch, and you're listening to the current is flying.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER LEAN: They've got to be 60 foot high coming through the back. We've probably lost a house down in the bush. It is the worst I've ever seen a fire.

LL: Peter Lean was up all night on the roof of his home, fighting back the flames. He lives in Wallaby Point, just one of the areas in Australia devastated by fires.

SOUNDCLIP

PETER LEAN: It is strong. It's coming. We've got burning embers. It's a firestorm. We're losing properties. A man's property. We've got fire. People dying. We've got embers blowing up the street from another fire. It looks like it's jumped over into [unintelligible]. The whole street at the end of the roundabout is gone. It's just gone. I've never seen the sky so red since 2000. We've got winds blowing, they're circling. It's like a cyclone.

LL: More than eight hundred and fifty thousand hectares of land have been raised. At least 300 homes have been destroyed or damaged. And at least four people have died in New South Wales alone. And the danger isn't over. Forecasters are warning of more dangerous conditions in the days ahead. Kat Robinson Williams has been on the frontlines. She's a volunteer firefighter with the New South Wales Rural Fire Service. And we've reached her in Paxton, Australia. Hello.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: Hi. How are you?

LL: Good. Kat, Peter Leanne's description of the fire, that sounds absolutely terrifying. How does that compare with what you've seen?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: It's actually fairly similar to what I've seen on the ground myself. It's actually quite scary.

LL: Tell me about what you've seen.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: I've been seeing flame heights 5-10 metres in the air. Winds are gusting at, you know, 30-plus kilometres an hour, 50-plus kilometres an hour in some areas. Spot fires just happening to light up backyards and light up houses, and police running around frantically trying to evacuate everyone out. Ambulances on the ground making sure everyone's okay, and firefighters just everywhere. It's been absolutely insane.

LL: You've just come off a three-day rotation of fighting the fires. What was it like having to go at that for three days in a row?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: It was full on. It's not my longest rotation that I've had, but it's been the longest one this season so far. We haven't even hit summer yet, and the worst is still yet to come.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: Well, in that sense, then, how volatile is this wildfire compared to ones you've seen in the past?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: The bushfires that we've got, it's just crazy. I've been on fires before and I was at the Blue Mountain fires, quite a quite a number years ago, and this is just so much worse.

LL: Why is it so bad? What are the conditions like?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: It's so dry. We haven't had rain, proper rain, in five years. The winds are gusting so high, the humidity is really low. And just the sheer amount of fuel on the ground because we haven't been able to put hazard reduction burns, or prescribed burns in to get rid of the excess fuel. The seasons between each - the time period between each fire season has gotten shorter and shorter each year, and it's just making it harder and harder for us to put in prescribed burns so that we don't have this issue.

LL: Well, this is gonna sound familiar to a lot of Canadians, especially in western Canada who have faced devastating forest fires over the last few years, and in other parts of the country. I'm wondering if people there are thinking about another way to try to fight fires. Are there ideas of just doing exactly what you're saying, cutting down brush and bush further away from homes?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: There's only so much of that we can do because embers can fly for 20, 30, even 40 kilometres down the road and light up a spot fire, and that can engulf a house within minutes if the house isn't prepared.

LL: Kat, I've covered forest fires before, I know how hard a job it is physically, how exhausting it is wearing that gear in the heat and the smoke. Tell me about what the experience has been like for you.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: It's actually not been too bad, our gear is not excessively heavy, which is nice. It's designed to reflect a lot of the heat. The worst part is wearing the mask actually, to make sure I don't get any smoke inhalation issues. But at the same time, it protects me. It protects the baby, and that's the biggest thing.

LL: And you're right. You just mentioned that you are pregnant. How is that affecting you, if at all?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: It's not, it's not, I'm fighting fires the same way I did before I was pregnant. My team, my crew is behind me. The Rural Fire Service has backed me 100 per cent., my doctors have said, you know, if you wear the correct PPE, you're fine.

LL: Your personal protection equipment, is what you mean by that. I've read that you're getting some backlash for being out there fighting the fire while you're pregnant. What do you make of that?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: Honestly, everyone has their opinion, and from what I understand, it's coming from a genuine place of concern. And that's fine. But as I said, I've cleared it with my doctors. So, you know, everyone is just kind of wanting myself and the baby to be safe, and that's okay.

LL: Why is it so important for you to be out there fighting the fire?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: Because it's what I've always done. I've been doing this for over 10 years. I've been a volunteer, actually, for 11 years now. And it's just what I've always done. The community has given me so much over the years. And I've always wanted to give back, even when I was a little kid. My grandmother actually made me a really cute toddler firefighting outfit, for me to run around with at the farm. And, you know, my grandmother's still a firefighter over 50 years. My mum over 30, my dad over 25. My uncle over 25 years as well. And my brother and I have been doing it for over 10 each, and it's just something we've always done and are going to continue to do regardless.

LL: It's a way of life for your family. I'm wondering, is there an image or a moment of this fire season — which, as you say, is still in the early stages — that is going to stay with you.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: Probably having my husband there on the fire line with me, that would be the biggest thing. Him and his brothers are firies as well. And having my whole family there and supportive is absolutely amazing. And having him on the fire line next to me, at that big fire at North Rothbury, it was just good. It was good to have him there.

LL: Are you going back in soon?

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: I'm on standby until further notice. So if the page goes off, I'm going in.

LL: All right, Kat, whatever happens, please take care of yourself and your baby.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: I definitely will. That is my biggest priority, is my baby's safety.

LL: Bye bye.

KAT ROBINSON WILLIAMS: Bye.

LL: Kat Robinson Williams is a volunteer firefighter with the New South Wales Rural Fire Service in Australia. In our next half hour, we will continue our coverage of the fires in Australia. I'm Laura Lynch. You are listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

PAULA NEIL: I've been involved with fighting fires for most of my life. I started when I was about eight years of age. If you were old enough, strong enough, tall enough to get on a truck and help out, you did so. As I grew older, I joined the fire service and I loved it ever since. My husband and my son are also members of the fire service and my sisters have all joined up. My mother's joined up. It's become a bit of a family tradition now, but there's many families involved.

[Music]

PAULA NEIL: My name is Paula Neill on the senior deputy captain with the Chifley Operations Brigade in New South Wales. I have just come off a three day deployment and I'll be deploying again for another rotation tonight. I'm always apprehensive going in to any fight. It's just as long as I can do my best, I know I'll come out of it. It can be hard emotionally, but the community needs us. And just having a child walk up to you with a picture to say thank you. Or one time we were stopped in refuelling and a gentleman gave me some flowers that he bought for me. And it's little acts like that someone walking up to you and giving you a hug to say thank you. That in itself, that's a very emotional thing for me, because it means we're affecting people, we're helping them through the toughest time of their lives.

LL: Now, besides firefighters on the frontlines, there are other people and organizations helping people through these tough times. Andrew Coghlan is the national manager of emergencies at the Australian Red Cross. He's in Melbourne. Hello.

ANDREW COGHLAN: Hi, Laura.

LL: Tell me, how tough is this fire from your perspective?

ANDREW COGHLAN: It's really tough in that it's so widespread across different parts of Australia, particularly New South Wales, that you're hearing a lot about. But we've also had some fire in Queensland and also South Australia and Western Australia. So virtually across the whole country, we've had outbreaks of fire in the last few days. And the weather conditions are, as Kat was saying in your earlier interview, that we've had in number of these areas, we haven't had any rain for or not much rain for the last four, five, six years. So conditions are extremely dry and we're getting what the fire brigade called catastrophic conditions. That's the situation we've had in New South Wales a couple of days ago where the wind temperatures were such that they were really, really concerned about people's welfare. And given that it's still spring, we expect a long few months ahead with the summer fast approaching.

LL: How is the Red Cross able to help in a situation like this?

ANDREW COGHLAN: Here would do a number of things, Laura. We have people out in evacuation centres in each of the affected areas. In New South Wales, for instance, a couple of days ago, we had our volunteers out providing psychological first aid for people in 35 different evacuation centres. So as you can imagine, that's a lot of people to get out on the ground from a logistics point of view. And the nature of the fires is such that some of these centres are opening and then they close again and then the weather changes and they'll open them again a couple of days later. So it's quite a random nature to the fires. So we're providing a psychological first aid with volunteers in evacuation centres who are just having a quiet conversation with people, a bit of care and comfort. As well as that we run a registration system along with the government in Australia, where people who are evacuated actually give us their details, their name and address and so forth. And their relatives and friends can call a free phone line and we're able to tell them that they're safe and well and they're in the evacuation centre, because one of the major concerns that people have, obviously, in those circumstances is wanting to understand that their family and loved ones are okay.

LL: You mentioned psychological first aid and quiet conversations. What kinds of things are your people hearing from people on the ground?

ANDREW COGHLAN: In a number of things. One of the most telling things is the gravity of the fire. There was a situation, one of the towns in New South Wales, a place called Glen Innes, where some of the worst of the damaged occurred. And we had people who were talking to us who'd been living in that town for decades. And they were saying that the conditions leading up to the fires and the fires themselves, the conditions on the day were unlike anything I've ever experienced before. So we hear a lot of stories about the actual circumstance of the fire. But as much as anything, it's people who have left their homes, who are fearful about what's happening in their home and whether there's going to be something there to go back to. That's one of the great concerns as well.

LL: Unlike anything they've ever seen before, the conditions, what does that does mean? It's just so dry?

ANDREW COGHLAN: So dry but also the heat of the day and the wind conditions mean that the fire is moving so quickly and getting out of control in some situations. You know, the firies are doing a fantastic job of containing the fire where they can. But given the scale and the breadth of the fires, sometimes it's hoping their containment lines and the speed with which it's moving because of the wind is a real challenge.

LL: Well, what's the greatest need as this fire season is really only getting going?

ANDREW COGHLAN: To us, the greatest challenge is going to be the sustainability of the workforce. You know, we have a great team of volunteers. We've got a bit for four and a half thousand volunteers across the country to do some fantastic work. But we'll be calling on them. We anticipate time and again over the next three or four months that that's going to be a challenge. But also for the community, obviously, it's the uncertainty. It's the not knowing from, you know, these last few days have been terrible conditions and awful fires. But for a lot of people, they are able to return to their homes and everything's okay. It could happen again next week and the week after. We're really desperate for some rain to come in and really deal with these fires in the best way that nature can.

LL: Andrew. We'll leave it there but I do wish you and everyone in the Red Cross good luck in the weeks and months ahead.

ANDREW COGHLAN: Thanks, Laura. And we really appreciate the support of everyone from around the globe who's been getting in touch with us and expressing their concern. So thank you.

LL: Bye bye.

ANDREW COGHLAN: Bye.

LL: Andrew Coughlin is the national manager of emergencies at the Australian Red Cross. He's in Melbourne. Now we're going to take a very different look at climate change, look and sound, that is the Climate Music Project is a group of scientists, musicians and artists who are giving a changing climate, a soundtrack.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT ST. GEORGE: I'm Scott St. George and I'm associate professor of geography at the University of Minnesota. I'm a climate scientist who's interested in other medium, other ways that we can communicate aspects of climate change science to people outside of the usual graphs, maps and numbers.

[Music]

SCOTT ST. GEORGE: The composition Planetary Bands Warming World, which was written by a student at the University of Minnesota named Daniel Crawford, takes NASA's global temperature record and turns it into a three or four minute piece for string quartet. Each instrument represents a different part of the world. And so you can track the changes in the geography of global warming through the different instruments as the piece goes on. When you hear all four instruments moving together slowly towards higher and higher notes, which represent warmer and warmer temperatures in each of those four areas, it packs a kind of power, a visceral impact that you can't get when you just look at a chart going up and up and up on a page.

[Music]

SCOTT ST. GEORGE: I guess I'm hopeful that if we are able to try new and creative ways to get a crisis in information, then maybe people will really take it to heart in a way that they haven't yet before.

STEPHAN CRAWFORD: My name is Stephan Crawford. I am the founder and executive producer of the Planet Music Project. So that one is actually it was our first piece. It was called Climate. It's by composer Eric Ian Walker. So in this particular case, for example, carbon dioxide is linked to the temple of the music so as is more carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere, the tempo increases. Near Earth's atmosphere temperature is linked to pitch, so the higher the temperature, the higher the pitch in this particular piece. And then there is energy balance is linked to distortions that are more out of balance, the energy balance is then the more distorted the music actually sounds. We've been performing now for five years over the last five years, and it's been a pretty consistent feedback we received. This music is, it actually stays with people and it helps them to essentially make the flames, which otherwise would be very abstract and sort of separated from the content of daily life. It makes them more personla.

[Music]

ANDREA POLI: My name's Andrea Poli. I'm an artist and a professor of art and engineering at the University of New Mexico. We mapped wind speed and wind direction to each of the four channels, so when someone standing in the centre of the room they feel like the wind is kind of whipping around them. We have more intensity of the sound as the temperatures are higher and we also increase the intensity of a very low tone that creates almost a visceral feeling in your gut. So I think as the temperatures are getting higher, there's a greater intensity that people feel.

[Whipping sounds]

ANDREA POLI: The sound is dissonance. So I think that makes it sound a kind of melancholy. Music touches people on a emotional level and maybe these sonifications, although they're not really songs, maybe they touch people's emotions and make people feel more connected to what is generally thought of as pretty abstract thing, these weather model.

[Whipping sounds]

LL: And that was music from the Climate Music Project, along with some of the people involved in it. You are listening to The Current on CBC Radio 1, Sirius XM and on the CBC Listen app.

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Long flights

Guest: Sarah Lyall

I'm Laura Lynch. Let's face it, even if you're not scared of flying, sitting on a long flight can be just plain uncomfortable. Not a lot of fun. But imagine being in the air for nearly 20 hours. That is what Australian airline Qantas is testing out on a direct flight from New York to Sydney, Australia. We asked travellers at the Winnipeg airport whether they would try it.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: That's too long of a flight, like with no brakes or anything to get out, you're sitting in a seat for 20 hours. No

VOICE 2: I would have to prepare by wearing clothing. That is light. I would exercise in the morning before getting on the plane and hydrate.

VOICE 3: I think it's insane. I would not want to be cooped up in a metal tube for that length of time, but if I absolutely had to, I would be seeking medical help or chemical help to help me survivor this.

VOICE 4: Take a nap, like eight hour nap, I guess, like go to sleep. So Netflix, two then eight, 10. What would you do for next 10 hours? I don't know. Talk to the air hostess.

VOICE 5: So I'm a current flight attendant and a 20 hour haul as a crew member, to me, sounds absolutely insane. We do turns out are about 15 hours sometimes. And that's overtime. And that alone is enough. I can't even imagine dealing with passengers who are stuck in an aircraft for 20 hours. It could be something else, that's for sure. They probably go loopy.

LL: The new Qantas flight is certainly testing the limits of human endurance. For the past few weeks, they've been carrying out a science experiment in the sky with what they're calling research flights to see how travellers cope, both physically and mentally. New York Times reporter Sarah Lyall was onboard one of the test flights. She wrote a piece about her journey and she joins me now from our New York City studio. Hi.

SARAH LYALL: Hi. Good morning.

LL: Your piece in The Times is titled Would 19 Hours and 60 Minutes in the Air Make Me Crazy? So I have to ask you, what was the flight attendant we heard, right? Did it make you go loopy?

SARAH LYALL: I think I was slightly loopy before I got on the flight. The problem that I had and I think this is a typical problem actually when you travel is if you don't feel fantastic before you get on the flight, it's not going to help to be on a flight. And you have nowhere to go to get help in the middle of the flight. So you're. I was particularly nervous. I had a really bad head cold and I've flown before with congestion. And it's really bad for your ears. So what I did is I really overmedicated. So I was not in great shape to begin with. And I only sort of got worse as the flight went on.

LL: Sarah, we'll get back to that. But just first before that, why is Qantas offering this flight?

SARAH LYALL: Well, I think with Australia I mean, Australia is so far away and anyone who wants to get in and out of Australia is relegating themselves to being in the air for a long time anyway. The only way to get there from the United States or from the East Coast now is by going through a different city. You go through L.A., you go through Hawaii and it adds, you know, hours onto your trip. So what they want to do is offer non-stop flights from JFK to Sydney Airport that will shave about three hours off your trip and also save a lot of fuel. It's a lot less fuel. They've told me to take the direct flight than to switch planes somewhere else.

LL: All right. So that helps with the climate change question. But do you know what the longest duration flight in the world is right now?

SARAH LYALL: Commercially, it's something like 17.5 Hours. Singapore Airlines has a really long one. And Qantas also offers, I think it's one of the Australian cities to London non-stop. That's a little bit over 17 hours. So this adds about two hours on to the next longest flight.

LL: So who is the target market for this flight then? People who want to get there from New York?

SARAH LYALL: I think so. I think it's a lot of business people. I mean, people who have to travel. It's not a leisure trip. And, you know, anyone who I guess hates having to change flights doesn't want to deal with the luggage and the worry about all that stuff. And I assume that's what it is. I mean, they're not going to start them commercially for a couple of years now. So this is sort of off the books. The flights they're doing now, they they're building them as research flights. So you can't sign up for one yet.

LL: Let's get back to your flight then. How did you feel? I know you say you had a really bad head cold. You took medication. How did you feel yourself changing mentally and physically as time went by?

SARAH LYALL: Well, here's the thing. Like I you know, I had kids, so I really like flying. I'd like being away from responsibility. I like not having Wi-Fi. I like the movies. I think of it as a little vacation. I really don't mind flying. So I was very excited about this trip. Normally what I do on like an overnight flight is I just take some sleeping pills and, you know, not mess around, not even stay up and drink or watch the movies too much. But this was a much longer flight. And, you know, Australia's 14 hours ahead of the east coast of America, and they were specifically doing things in the cabin to help us, they said, with jet lag. So we got on the flight in the evening. They cranked up the lights they gave us. The sort of spicy caffeine filled meal to get us to stay up longer. But by then I had taken - and you know, I really gon't have a drug problem - but I had taken an [unintelligible]. I'd taken this some other prescription thing the doctor given me. I'd taken a decongestant and I took [unintelligible], you know, which you squirt up your nose. And I just didn't do it right. And so I felt really high. Like I felt like I was on some kind of amphetamines and really nervous and weird. And, you know, when you're like that, it's hard to sleep because your head is going so fast. So during the staying up part, like, I felt like I didn't appreciate it so much because I just couldn't concentrate. I felt really nervous and weird from all the pills.

LL: Was there a point at which you realized, oh, no, I have so many more hours to go?

SARAH LYALL: Yes. Yes. Because you look at your screen in front of you and it's like time remaining 14 hours and 14 hours. We'd already been on the flight for like five hours and 14 hours. Seems like a absurd amount of time. And you know, again, like I brought a lot of books. There's nothing I like more than to watch an entire series, season, of some TV program I wouldn't watch at home, but it did start to seem pretty long now.

LL: They call this a research flight. What exactly was Qantas researching?

SARAH LYALL: Well, they had on the flight, you know, obviously the crew and then six frequent flyers who were Qantas, you know, customers and then a bunch of reporters. And the customers, the frequent flyers, had been keeping a log of their exercise, their sleep, their food intake for some time before the flight left. And then on the flight, they had to take these iPad tests of mental acuity and reflexes. And I actually took one just for interest on the flight. And they gave you an iPad and they said, you know, blank screen when a bunch of numbers start appearing on the screen, press a button to show how quick your reflexes are when you notice a thing happening. And when things they test is how that changes throughout the flight. So you may be super on the ball in the beginning and you start to lag and lag as the flight goes on. And they made these poor people to do them for 10 minutes at a time. And I did one for five minutes and I could barely get through it. And by the end, what I was finding is that my reflexes varied considerably through the course of the test, which is a sign that you're starting to lag mentally because you're not consistent. And meanwhile, the crew were hooked up to a bunch of they had stuff like around their heads and machines that we couldn't see that were testing blood pressure and hormone levels and they were collecting urine. And the idea was they would use all this data later on to really map the effect of a long flight on people on it over time. And then they can, they say, gear the experience in the cabin for customers based on the sort of things they've learned from these flights.

LL: So you get to Sydney. What are some of the things the airline did to help people feel okay when they landed in Sydney?

SARAH LYALL: Well, they emphasized, you know, the minute you get on the flight, set your watch, if you have a watch, to Sydney time. They kept us up for about six hours, six or seven hours on the flight after we got on. So you didn't do that thing of where you have dinner and immediately fall asleep the way you would on most long haul flights.

LL: That's why the spicy food, it made you stay away.

SARAH LYALL: The spicy food and also the lights were really bright. It was like being under an interrogation lamp almost. You know, there was just no way. And then six or seven hours in, they gave us a sort of soporific meal of carbohydrates and sort of milky soup and stuff. And then they just totally shut the lights off so that it was pitch black it felt like. And they you know, and they'd said, don't drink alcohol, you know, put on your face mask, put on your noise cancelling things, stretch out, you know, stop watching the TV. But sadly, I had taken so much decongestant medication that I was really wired. And so I took a couple sleeping pills.

LL: Oh, and goodness.

SARAH LYALL: And, you know, when you take an Ambien and normally - and again, like I'm not some kind of weird drug person.

LL: I believe.

SARAH LYALL: But I took an Ambien and it didn't work. And that's never happened before. So I panicked. And I'm like, I still have, you know, twelve hours left. I better get some goddamn sleep. So sorry to swear. So I took another Ambien and I had already taken some melatonin, cause that's what they suggested. And that didn't do anything. And then I really felt terrible when I woke up.

LL: So how did you feel when you got to Sydney?

SARAH LYALL: I was kind of sick, actually. I. Because, you know, the thing is also- Okay. So when you're. Congested part of the worry is that your eardrums will rupture. And I had this horrible feeling like what if that were to happen? And, you know, you're five hours away from any kind of land over the Pacific. And like, your ears are bleeding. You can't land. No one's going to help you. So you have to really, really stave off any potential thing of this happening. And that's sort of why I overdid it. I didn't know how to do it right. And I didn't want to talk to too many people. I felt like such a loser. So I after I woke up, I felt like the other medicine was wearing off. So I took a bunch more and I was really pretty sick to my stomach for the whole next day.

LL: So obviously you were not the model passenger for this flight. Just in a word, would you suggest anyone else try this?

SARAH LYALL: I would. I think like with a lot of long haul flights. So it's really, you know, a matter of where you sit in the plane. And we all were really lucky. We got to fly business class. There's only 50 people on this enormous plane. So we walked around a lot. We exercised. It was like a cocktail party. I don't know. I wouldn't do it if I were stuck in the back of the plane, you know, in between two people. And I couldn't get out.

LL: We're leaving it there. Sarah, I'm glad to hear you're feeling better. Thanks a lot.

SARAH LYALL: Thank you so much. Take care.

LL: Sarah Lyall is a reporter with The New York Times. She was in our New York City studio. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q Marc Randolph as Thom Powers guest. He's the co-founder and former CEO of Netflix. Now, we were just talking about very long flights and there is one thing that might get one of those flights off to a slightly better start. A flight attendant with a sense of humour like this one from Southwest Airlines. I'm Laura Lynch. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

FLIGHT ATTENDANT: Ladies and gentlemen, in the event that you have not been in an automobile since 1942, we're going to show you how to fasten your seat belt. Watch closely. Do this. And the fact that thing down needs to be low and tight across your hips, just like the hot pink Speedo I'm wearing tonight when we get to the hotel.

[Laughter]

[Unintelligible] don't like the jokes, the service tonight, six ways out of this aeroplane. Feel free to use them. There's going to be two forward exit doors, two overwing window exits and two rear exit doors. There's signs on the ceiling. There's disco lights on the floor. They're going to lead you to these exits. Now, when the unlikely event that our captain decides to turn the love airline, Southwest Airlines, into a cruise this evening, we'll instruct you how to remove the life vest from beneath the seat. Ladies and gentlemen, it's the life vest. It's not a toilet seat cover. It goes over your head. You bring the black strap around your tiny little waist to snap the two ends together and pull to tighten. To inflate the life vest after you exit the aircraft, you pull down on the red tab. Those of you that have to do absolutely everything the most difficult way and those overachievers, when you go into that tube located at the shoulder, the very best of luck to you with that, but then keep kicking and paddling over to the cabin shore. They'll be behind you shortly. You're going to be able to recognize the cabin staff. We're the ones [unintelligible] that liquor kits. For the gentlemen passing through the cabinet this time simply and frankly, we do not trust you. Very simple. Very easy. Don't be naughty in the podies and leave the webcam alone in there. You end up on YouTube next week. Folks, 2200 dollars for [unintelliglbe] with the smoke detector in this laboratory. And you know, if you had 2200 dollars, you'd be on American Airlines back over there. I spent this taking the first class. Not the gentleman I certainly wouldn't have shown up for work tonight if we did anticipate there is a decompression. But in the event of a decompression for that bright yellow buttercup mask designed by Gucci and Martha Stewart, where they're going to draw from the compartment overhead and [unintelligible] the flow of the alcohol, you have to first stop screaming. You have to let go of the person next to you. Reach up and grab that mask full extinct plastic tubing. You pasted over your big nose and mouth and you continue wearing that mask and breathing normally until otherwise notified by one of your three fabulously tourists, flight attendants. For those of you travelling with your children, why? And for those back there travelling with two of your children? Well, what in the world were you thinking tonight? When those masks fall, put the masks on the bright one that looks kind of contribute to your retirement. We thank you so much for sharing your night with us. Do us a favour, sit back, relax and enjoy our in-flight hospitality. Well, you can sit up and [unintelligible]. That choice issues. It's a pleasure to serve you tonight. It is most definitely ours. Now, we've got one final message for you before we depart. [Singing] we love you. You love us. We're much faster than [unintelligible]. But we hope you enjoy our hospitality. Marry one of us and you'd fly free [singing ends]. Two hours to think about that. [Unintelligible] you need to know one of us a little higher make the step the other two.

[Laughter and applause]

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