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The AIH Transcript for November 8, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Karen Gordon

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

CO: How the west could be won. After a visit with the prime minister in Ottawa, Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister tells us what it will take for Justin Trudeau to quit feuding with the premiers of Alberta and Saskatchewan.

KG: Some disassembly required. 30 years after the Berlin Wall came down, we'll speak with a guest who was our man on the scene all those years ago: physician and former pro-democracy activist Jens Reich.

CO: Malice aforethought. Decades after surviving the Holocaust, an 89-year-old senator in Italy is assigned police protection after she received anti-Semitic messages and threats.

KG: So many losses for words. New information brings a new dimension of horror and grief to the deaths of 39 Vietnamese nationals in a truck in the UK -- ten of the victims were just teenagers.

CO: Left without our own devices. You might call it putting down your phone and watching the birds for a bit -- but in Silicon Valley, the latest wellness trend has a more high-tech name: a dopamine fast.

KG: And all without the same boat. Alberta's annual Flying Canoe Festival needs a real J-stroke of luck -- after thieves take off with a bunch of the canoes that were meant to take off. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that would hate to be the bearer of bad canoes.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Italian senator and Holocaust survivor 'will not give up' because of threats: colleague

Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister

Guests: Brian Pallister

KG: Brian Pallister says he came in peace. The Manitoba Premier was in Ottawa today for a post-election sit down with Prime Minister Trudeau. The election exposed Mr. Trudeau's weaknesses in the West. And Premier Pallister's prairie colleagues in Saskatchewan and Alberta appear to be spoiling for a classic Canadian federal-provincial fight. But this morning, Mr. Pallister insisted that he just wanted to offer Canada's prime minister a little friendly advice. We reached Manitoba Premier Brian Pallister in Ottawa.

CO: Premier Pallister what was your advice to Mr. Trudeau today?

BRIAN PALLISTER: Well reach out, look to bind us together, make sure that we can make some serious economic and social progress by utilizing our resources and our mutual skills. Don't continue to divide against premiers -- that a political leader can do but a prime minister should not. Really congenial Manitoba advice friendly as Manitobans are working -- offering to work to build bridges in this country to make us a stronger country.

CO: Do you think that Ottawa -- that Mr. Trudeau has been dividing premiers?

BP: Well, I would say certainly that's a tactic that many political people use Carol. And I would say it was pretty obvious. So I'll let those who watched the federal election draw their own conclusions on that. But I think going forward, it's pretty clear that the ground has shifted. When the prime minister first came in we had I think 8 NDP or Liberal Premiers. We don't now. 7 Conservative Premiers. Now, it is a different time. And it calls for, I think, some openness. And I think that the prime minister is demonstrating in words certainly that he's open to that openness. And I think people will need to see that in deeds.

CO: I think that there have been a number of comments about Alberta blaming Ottawa, blaming Mr. Trudeau, for what's going on with the economy of the province. Do you have any advice for Mr. Kenney?

BP: Well certainly I think Mr. Kenney has been very vocal in advocating for the people of Alberta who are very, obviously, very frustrated. You saw that in the electoral outcome but it's more than that. You're seeing job loss there. Alberta has been wonderfully blessed over many years with a strong strong economy and all Canada has benefited from that. But the fact remains that now we've seen significant increases in, for example, suicide rates among young men there who want to work. And I think that the effort needs to be, obviously, to get the Trans Mountain project, not just bought, but to get it functioning so that we can create more opportunities for that region of the country. That being said, I am also concerned, as is the Mayor of Calgary about delays, other delays in terms of things like flood protection projects we're trying to get done Carol. And so there is a need to get these things built. We need a structure that isn't just used for delay, but is used for progress to be achieved as well in a balanced way.

CO: I just want to understand what you're saying about the situation in Alberta and just how dire it's been and that people are actually possibly taking their own lives because of that situation. Are you blaming that on Ottawa?

BP: No no I'm not placing blame. I wouldn't have come down here to place blame Carol. I'm a bridge builder and I'm trying to do my very best to make sure that as Manitoba is the Keystone Province I suppose does we're very strong Canadians first and we want what's best for the country not just what's best for Manitoba. So we're certainly advocates for seeing action that can bind us together better because I think we have been somewhat divided over the last while.

CO: There is a minority government in Ottawa now as you know. But 65 percent of voters chose parties that support the carbon tax -- whether it's the Liberal carbon tax or something even tougher. So where does that put those provinces who are against this? Where does that put Alberta? Where does that put Scott Moe in the political calculation?

BP: Well, let's not equate concern about climate change to automatically opposition to building the Trans Mountain pipeline. I think that you know there is significant support for energy corridors in this country, including not just pipelines, but I would say also hydroelectric energy. Significant support for development in that side. And I think that's really the approach Premier Moe and Premier Kenney have both taken. So I wouldn't equate the two things. I think a carbon tax action as part of a climate change plan is something that I think we can accept. And certainly it's something that many Canadians demonstrated they would support parties who support that. But that's not the only way to fight climate change. Manitoba has got a green record. Yet pre-election our green record was dismissed by the federal government because quite clearly they wanted to run an election campaign against some of the provinces. That needs to heal now. We need to show respect for each other's initiatives. We need to understand we're all in this together. We're not going to benefit by further such strategies of division. We need strategies of unification now.

CO: So you say that running a campaign based on the idea that there should be a carbon tax was in fact a campaign against provinces who oppose the carbon tax?

BP: I would say it was designed to be more of a divisive strategy than a unifying one. And I would say that any environmentalist would suggest that there are many other ways in which we can, in addition to the possibility of a carbon tax, that we can deal with climate change. We developed what Minister McKenna -- perhaps soon to be former Minister McKenna, that would be up to the prime minister -- described as the best green plan in Canada, Carol. 67 pages of actions -- we're undertaking that. That's our Manitoba Green Plan. One page was carbon tax, 66 pages of other initiatives that we're pursuing. So again I would suggest mutual respect is a better strategy than federal usurping or dominating provincial initiatives. It's not a long term way to find success. Short term it worked -- to get a minority liberal government elected. Long term, it doesn't work to build a stronger and more united Canada.

CO: We interviewed New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs who said that after the election he flipped over and said yeah we're going to have a carbon tax -- I'm still going to fight Ottawa's imposition of certain parts of it but I'm going to do it because he said the writing's on the wall. The people have spoken. This is what they want. And I'm going to shift over to represent that. So what do you make of Premier Higgs' position?

BP: Well I make this of the line of questioning Carol. I would say that the very fact that we're spending most of our conversation talking about a carbon tax shows that we're talking about something that's easy to divide people with when we should be talking about working on climate change adaptation. We should be talking about flood protection. We should be talking about climate mitigation projects. This is what Manitoba wants to engage in and is. And so I would suggest that constructive conversation would be about how to deal with the big problem, not how to divide with the little one.

CO: Did you hear anything today that made you think that the prime minister is willing to do what you suggested?

BP: The prime minister in our meetings has been very open. I appreciated his willingness to listen. And I think now what Canadians want to see, not exclusively in western Canada, but elsewhere, is that he's willing to act on the words that he has spoken.

CO: Premier Pallister I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

BP: It's a real pleasure, Carol. Thank you.

KG: Brian Pallister is the Premier of Manitoba. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Italian senator threats

Guest: Emma Bonino

KG: Liliana Segre was barely a teenager when she was taken to the Auschwitz concentration camp in 1944. Her father died. But Ms. Segre survived the Holocaust. And today, she is a senator for life in Italy. Since being appointed to that position last year, Ms. Segre has been the subject of anti-Semitic messages. Her son told The New York Times that some have wished for her death. And now officials have assigned Ms. Segre police protection for her safety in public spaces. Emma Bonino is an elected senator in Italy. We reached her in Rome.

CO: Senator Bonino, what has Liliana Segre told you about how she feels now that she has a security detail guarding her?

EMMA BONINO: Well she simply said publicly, by the way, that she never imagined to be put under escort in her own country. So she at the same time is surprised -- reassured also. But also in a very fighting mood. So I'm sure she will not give up. But definitely what has happened both in the Senate and then in social etc etc -- of course has affected her very much. Even if she stood firmly yesterday showing is a number in her arms -- saying I take this number of the Auschwitz camp with honor. The dishonor is on people who made it happen.

CO: Why do you think that now the authorities have had to take the next step, which is to actually protect her?

EB: I think that it is also the fact that she went public promoting this special commission on racism and etc. The debate in the Senate was really a shame. And I think that she was known to a small group of us. But she has become a public figure more recently. And so the hate speech and the insults and so on and so forth -- have increased exponentially in the last months. That's why the Minister of Interior, after a meeting, decided that starting today officers from Milan provincial forces, we provide an armed escort to the Liliana Segre.

CO: That must mean that it's not just that there are horrible things being said to her, but there are credible physical threats to her safety. Is that what we're to understand?

EB: Yeah. That is what it does mean to put under an escort. I was put under escort years ago -- and it lasted a few years. It is not a good situation.

CO: Can you tell us about this commission that Liliana Segre is spearheading?

EB: I hope she will be elected the chairperson of this committee. The committee has a mission of hearings, collecting proof, and at the end -- but it doesn't have any legislative power. And what the commission can do as the commission of human rights, where I am participating, can provide final report on suggestions how to change, what to change, what are the measures to make it a better coexistence in Italy. And so being understood or misunderstood by the right (wing) political parties who abstained and didn't upload the path of the commission. But I think it was a political gesture much more than the gesture regarding the real power of the commission.

CO: And you mentioned that there were right-wing parties who abstained, who wouldn't support this commission. But these aren't fringe parties, are they? This is the party of Silvio Berlusconi. This is the party of Salvini. There are others as well. And they abstained why? What was the reason for not voting to support this commission?

EB: I think it was a process of intentions. They claim that the commission could be, let's say, distorted -- etc. But I also think that now they do apologize. And I have heard today that some leaders of the right coalition said today, we will vote Liliana Segre as chairperson of this commission. Of course, she is 90. So I think that she will need the help of all of us -- we will be part of the commission to go forward. But I think that they realize that they had gone too far.

CO: One of the comments by Mr. Salvini is that he believed that this commission that would attempt to stop hate speech would actually curtail freedom of speech and the right to say Italians first. What's your response to that?

EB: That's just ridiculous. It's enough to read the motion that we approved. And all this can be -- really -- it's a fake news. I don't know why people speak without reading what is exactly the text of the motion. And by the way, it's important in any case to have such a culture of commission because the elements and incidents of racism are very (wide)spread in Italy. There is a cultural mood which is not only on anti-Semitic on the Jews, but bluntly racist. That's why it's important to have such a committee. And I hope that Liliana will be as courageous as always -- to stand firm. But I know how difficult it is to live under escort -- particularly for her. She told me -- exactly -- I never thought that I would be put under escort in my own country.

CO: And here she is a survivor of Auschwitz getting to be protected. Ms. Bonino I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

EB: Thank you very much.

KG: That was Italian Senator Emma Bonino in Rome. For more on this story, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Flying Canoe Festival

Guest: Daniel Cournoyer

KG: In Edmonton, when winter hits, residents have a choice: curse it or embrace it. And devoted fans of the Flying Canoe Festival prefer the latter. For them, embracing winter involves a makeshift luge track, a canoe, and a bundle of fur. But now they are desperately short of one of the key ingredients after a thief made off with some of the canoes. Daniel Cournoyer is one of the festival's organizers. We reached him in Edmonton.

CO: Daniel what's happened to your canoes?

DANIEL COURNOYER: They were taken. They were stolen. My flying canoes flew away somehow. But we have a very good idea how that happened.

CO: And what's your idea?

DC: Well it's quite simple and it's a tragic tale. Somebody proceeded to drive into our lower parkade, cut the locks, and drive away with three or four flying canoes.

CO: But there were two hits on your canoes, right? Two separate robberies?

DC: We've had eight canoes taken over the course of the summer. And on October 22nd was the final three. Well not the final three, we do have one left. But it's lonely.

CO: Oh dear. If you were having a Flying Canoe Festival you need more than one I would imagine.

DC: You need multitudes of canoes. Everywhere you should look, you should see a canoe at the Flying Canoe Volant Winter Festival.

CO: All right. I want to ask you about how you use these canoes on a luge track. What exactly do you do?

DC: We've created a Canadian triathlon of sorts. It's in that voyageur spirit. We can't forget that Edmonton was founded with two forts: fort of the prairies, which was the Northwest Company and the Fort Edmonton with the Hudson Bay Company. With that spirit in mind we thought those voyageurs in winter are obviously looking for things to do so what better way to grab your fur bundle and your trading flag, sprint 50 metres to a canoe, go down a luge run on a ski hill, come to the bottom, get out of your canoe, run to the trading post, the trade master puts up his hand and your other two teammates earn a bucksaw, they cut their 14-inch diameter log with the bucksaw, when the piece hits the ground their time stops and then they go for an ax toss to better their time. What people don't realize that after sawing for a good 5 to 10 minutes, you don't have a lot of upper body strength left to throw that ax. So we came up with this idea to just embrace winter -- make winter fun. So what better way to enjoy winter than getting out there and braving the elements.

CO: Okay. I want to wind this back a bit. Not just braving the elements, braving a luge truck in a canoe. How dangerous is that?

DC: It has its risks. There are waivers that need to be signed. Basically, we take the seats out of the canoes and we pad them with gym mats and whatnot to make them as cushy as possible. You are in this vessel and you are pitched forward down a trajectory of a luge run. This is basically a couple of snow banks that are keeping you in line. You're getting a fair amount of speed. You could be going probably easy to 50 to 70 kilometres an hour down the hill. So it is a thrill. It does get the blood flowing. Just a real true Edmonton winter thing to do.

CO: Okay. Have you done it? Have you tried?

DC: Yes. Well you know being the producer of the event they took one crash test dummy to actually go down and do it. First we did it with sandbags representing people's weight. And then eventually myself and my production team. We jumped into a canoe and we proceeded to adventure out where no man has gone before. So we knew it was possible. And we've taken this to the next step.

CO: Did your family know you were doing this [laughs] -- did you sign a waiver?

DC: Oh yeah. There's many waivers that need to be signed. Yes. You know, nobody wants to really accept responsibility, but we do try to keep it as safe as possible. And I will admit I might get in trouble for this -- but months before I took my daughter who was 18-19 at the time, and after a fresh snowfall we actually went to the hill and we just took a canoe and went down it. That was actually the first time I tried it. I think it's a way to break up winter.

CO: You know you're putting ideas in all kinds of people's heads.

DC: Well that's good because, you know, winter is meant to be embraced and we shouldn't be running and hiding from it -- I think. Anyway in Edmonton, winter can be long, the days are dark.

CO: Why did you call it in the voyageur spirit. What has it got to do with voyageurs?

DC: The flying canoe -- the story itself is actually based on a piece of French-Canadian literature that was penned by Honore Beaugrand way back in 1896 or 1894 -- give or take. And he published it in the Montreal Gazette and the New Yorker magazine at the time. And anyway, it's the story of these "Coureurs des bois" that are missing their loved ones on New Year's Eve. And who knocks at the door but the devil. And the devil makes a deal with them to fly them home to see their loved ones on New Year's Eve. To get to the party is not the problem --it's on the way back. There was three rules to follow: they mustn't drink, they mustn't use the Lord's name in vain, and they mustn't run into any church steeples. So on the way home is when all the things went awry. And unfortunately these voyageurs are condemned to fly the skies forever. Except we say in Edmonton -- and our voyageurs spirit that every first week in February they make a cameo appearance down in the Mill Creek Ravine at the French Quarter of Edmonton. It's really a celebration of Indigenous Metis and French culture with all of Edmonton. And the flying canoe races are a big piece of what all that fun is all about.

CO: Now if you can't get your canoes back, what does that do to your flying canoe festival?

DC: Well, it puts things in peril. I mean it's hard to have a flying canoe festival without canoes. Simply, we would like the person who took them just to quietly bring them back -- though I think that's a stretch. But we're looking for any ways people would like to contribute. But without canoes, it's a pretty bare festival. And it would be really important to have those back.

CO: Okay. My theory is that the mothers and the spouses of these voyageurs have stolen those canoes to prevent you guys from doing this.

DC: I might have to bark up that tree. Maybe people... [Laughs]

CO: They are just trying to protect you from yourselves. [Laughs]

DC: Yeah well you know, why would you do that? What's wrong with knocking your head every now and then? You know maybe it would knock some sense into us. So you know give us our canoes back and we'll behave accordingly.

CO: Protecting you from yourselves is what mothers and spouses do -- and fathers. I'm sure some of them too maybe got involved in this. Anyway it is my theory. Probably not true. I hope you get your canoes back Daniel. And thank you.

DC: Well, thanks so much for getting the word out. We just hope sincerely to get our lost voyageurs home.

CO: All right. Take care.

KG: Daniel Cournoyer is the executive director of La Cite Francophone -- the organizers of the Flying Canoe Festival. We reached him in Edmonton.

[Music]

Dopamine Fast

KG: For centuries, religions have emphasized the importance of taking a break from society. Of getting away from the shallow distractions like envying your neighbour's mortar and pestle or arguing with your horse. A timely time-out helped you get perspective and return home feeling clearer about your place in the universe and feeling more forgiving of your stupid inconsiderate horse. This practice has been known as a spiritual retreat. But you already know that. What you are wondering aloud to yourself is: was it a total productivity hack? Religious literature doesn't explicitly say so. Maybe the latest fancy in Silicon Valley is better than a spiritual retreat. According to the co-founder of the company "SleepWell" it is a total productivity hack. And if that's what you want -- try a "dopamine fast." What is a dopamine fast? Well, put your phone down and listen. One secret is: put your phone down and listen. Not to music: that's out. You don't watch TV or play video games or exercise. You don't talk, text, drink coffee, make eye contact, or have sex. The problem, according to disciples of the dopamine fast, is that we're addicted to the constant mental stimulation. So by eliminating as much of it as we can, we reset our brains to their baseline -- whatever that might be. It's a powerful idea or it's a powerful new name for an old idea. As a neuroscientist told journalists, Mike Wright, quote, "If I were being cynical, I'd say it's just a way of taking conventional and accepted wisdom and rebranding it so that it looks like a new idea that's more palatable to Silicon Valley types." Well, maybe. So I guess either you should take a rest or they should give it a rest.

[Music]

Part 2: 30 years on, East German activist recalls the 'quite unexpected' fall of the Berlin Wall

30th anniversary: Berlin Wall

Guest: Jens Reich

KG: It was 30 years ago -- November 1989. Pressure had been building on the East German communist government for months. Hungary had opened up its border, and refugees from East Germany had been making their way there to escape to the West. Inside East Germany, pro-democracy activists had been holding regular meetings and protests in October of that year. Former As It Happens host Michael Enright spoke with Jens Reich, one of the founders of the New Forum movement.

SOUNDCLIP

JENS REICH: Changes are necessary. The winds of change has to blow in our country. Improvements and changes are necessary here. Elections that are really -- that leave something to choice. And a press that makes interesting reading -- media, electronic media, that debate of political issues and so on.

KG: That was East German pro-democracy activist Jens Reich speaking with As It Happens in October of 1989. Little did he know at the time how quickly change would come to his country. By November, the protests had grown -- including the largest one ever on November 4th, 1989, at the Alexanderplatz in East Berlin. And then on the night of November 9th, the announcement that shook the country: the law was changing. East Germans would be allowed to travel freely across the wall. And the border that had divided Germans for the past 29 years was about to disappear. Over the next few days people streamed across the border, walking or driving their communist issued cars, their Trabants. And parties broke out all over.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: All day long at the Berlin Wall, a carnival atmosphere.

[Drums being played]

VOICE 1: Drums and champagne. Toast to the end of an era.

VOICE 2: It is a happy day for me and my life.

KG: As history was unfolding during those pivotal years of 1989 and 1990, As It Happens spoke with East German activist, physician, and molecular biologist Jens Reich four times. This weekend, along with millions of others across Germany, Mr. Reich will be marking the 30th anniversary of the fall of the wall. We reached Jens Reich again at his home in Berlin.

CO: Jens, first of all, welcome back to As It Happens after almost 30 years.

JENS REICH: Welcome to you as well.

CO: We just heard Dan Rather getting very excited about the events just after November 9th -- after the end of the wall in Berlin. But for you, I know, and from many it began much earlier. And that less well-known are the events of November 4th. Just days earlier where there was a demonstration which was very very key to this. You were one of the speakers. Do you recall the events of that demonstration?

JR: Of course. I am reminded of those days these days in particular. But of course, it's one of the well-reminded days of my life.

CO: You were one of the speakers at that event. How risky was it for you? Because at that point you did not know what was coming. How risky was it for you?

JR: We now know that it was no longer risky to speak ouy against the government or calling for reforms. We now know that the powers that be did not muster the strength to do something serious against this uprising. But at the time, of course, we were not aware of this outcome. It could have occurred very easily -- that the whole movement could have been stopped. For instance, if Gorbachev in Moscow would have been sacked, if he would have been removed from his post and instead the KGB and the army would have taken over. After all, we had nearly half a million or many military forces in East Germany. They could have stopped the whole party very easily.

CO: And yet there were a million people who were out in the streets and some people who were actually politicians -- people who were in the government speaking. You were one of the speakers. You spoke about the need for this kinds of change. How surprised were you to see how quickly things changed over the next days?

JR: That was a complete surprise. Of course, it was not a surprise in the sense that we did not expect things would happen, and the reforms, and the opening of the country, and free opinion and all these things would come more or less slowly. But nobody had any idea that five days later the whole country, in effect, would collapse. That was of course a major surprise.

CO: I want to just ask you more about that surprise. But let's just go to that night itself because there's a very famous moment when a man named Gunter Schabowski actually made the announcement. He was a member of the East German politburo. And you know this piece of tape that people should be reminded of it. Here is that audio of Gunter Schabowski.

SOUNDCLIP

[Man speaking in German]

CO: So in that clip -- you know what he's saying. He is announcing the end of border restrictions -- the end of the wall. And there's an Italian journalist asking him, well when is this going to happen? He says immediately. So, of course there's much controversy about whether or not that's really what he was told to say.

JR: It's not quite clear what he intended to say. I think 90 percent probability it's a slip of tongue that he said something that he had not the mandate to do. But it may also be there as discussion among the historians that this was a planned thing, that they planned to let the steam off from the popular movement by opening it for one evening or one day or one weekend and then closing it again. And then having let the steam off of this situation.

CO: And all hell broke loose, right? People started turning up saying they were going to cross. And these overwhelmed border guards -- I mean they could have had orders to shoot to kill. They could have had orders to stop. They could have done anything. But they didn't know what to do. Did they?

JR: Yeah. They got no orders. And there was a frenzy exchange of telephone calls as I understood later on between the big wigs in the politburo. Somehow nobody dared to give an order for the situation. They all expected it from the summit from above, from Honecker. But Honecker was ill at the time. Therefore, there was nobody that triggered the prepared orders -- what is to be done, when there will be what they called counter-revolutionary movement or something. This a reason that this border guy called Harald Jaeger -- we know him now. He was a simple border guard and he did not know what to do. And people gathered and they were very very modest. They said let us through. We don't wish to go forever. We will come back. We will inspect West Berlin. Open please. We will come back. They shouted it as a chorus. And finally said, well now we have to flood. -- as the opening of a dam.

CO: That was at 10:45 on the evening of November 9th -- opened the gate. And then East Berliners flooding into the West -- being met with champagne and flowers on the other side. Quite a moment, wasn't it?

JR: It was a great moment of course. I think a great moment of history and quite unexpected. Not planned. Then throughout the country, people rushed to the Western border. And not only the wall around West Berlin, but also the border between East and West Germany. And everywhere they demanded to look into the West. Obviously, the mood of the population was ah there's a party going on, let's go there. [Laughs]

CO: Now let's talk about where you were at this party because this is something you had wanted for years -- it was to see the end of this. Where were you on the night of November the 9th?

JR: I was alone. My wife was in the hospital. She had the night service there as a doctor. I was alone with the children. And I went to bed and nothing happened to me.

CO: You went to bed?

JR: I went to bed.

CO: Did you know about this party that was going on?

JR: Yeah -- I did not watch television. I switched it off. On the next day, my wife called me, and she had been called deep in the night in the hospital, and said to me that that our son who was 20-23 at the time, had called her and said "Mama I am sitting on the wall." And the only answer that my wife recovers was that she had said that is impossible to climb up on the wall. She didn't realize what had happened of course.

CO: And of course she would probably be thinking of all the people who had attempted to get across that wall over the years. People who had been killed. People have been shot for that. And there she was getting a message from your son. But of course everybody was on the wall. Everyone was standing on the wall by that point.

JR: But she couldn't imagine. And I must say, over the years or months at least we were very much afraid that our son or our daughter -- together with others -- try such a thing. Climbing over the wall were the things that we had seen a lot of successful and unsuccessful attempts.

CO: You're listening to As It Happens. And I'm speaking with Jens Reich -- a physician and molecular biologist who's also one of the founders of the pro-democracy movement in East Germany. So soon after the end of the wall is of course the end of the German Democratic Republic. The end of East Germany. And you ran in the first elections during the first post-communist elections. You ran in March 1990. Michael Enright spoke with you again at that moment. And you were talking about what you didn't like about it -- it was like very western. Western politicians and slogans. And I want to play a bit of you from March 1990 on As It Happens.

SOUNDCLIP

JENS REICH: As the first time for a very hilarious feeling. We have had such a success overthrowing the old system that has failed us for decades. Well, the other feeling is a bit sort of disappointment that we haven't had the time to structure our own democracy. That we are now in the process getting in it imported.

CO: So that was you being disappointed. So much was imported that you didn't get a chance to build your own. Did that disappointment stay with you?

JR: Well no -- I am no longer disappointed. I see only that there is a large number of people who really got disappointed because they did not grow into the western system as they supposed at the time being. Afterward the collapse of the whole economy occurred in East Germany and the ecological problems grew -- and there were many peoples who got unemployed afterwards for years to come. Elderly people who never got a new job after having been laid off. So there is a widespread feeling of that things could have been done more cautiously, slowly, better prepared in order to avoid that the opening of the wall with hindsight will become a day of disappointment for many people. This does not include myself or our family. We were not struck by this fate but we have enough people around who have been disappointed in it.

CO: I mean we talked about your efforts to become in political life. But at the same time you have accomplished so much in science and your research work on genomes is well regarded. You just received the highest honor in Germany -- the Order of Merit -- for your contributions. How much of your success do you credit with the experience of the fall of the Berlin wall? Which side helped you more --spending so much of your life in East Germany or was it finally being able to have both sides of the country to your advantage?

JR: I was already no longer a young man when the wall came down so the formative years of my life of course were before this. And we had to adapt to the eastern system and to live under the communist rule -- I have worked professionally for many years in Soviet Russia where very creative science took place. After all, we, the family and our children became imprinted into that Russian life. We have many friends in Russia and in Poland. And so we have made something out of the cage in which we were living. Life was not so bad. But we were depressive over many years -- spending our whole youth only in the tiny country and not being able to travel or go to conferences and have interaction with other scientists. But I know this was a communist time of my life.

CO: The same time the wall and the barrier between East and West Germany -- the point of it was they said to be around part against fascism. It was anti-fascist. Now that you're part of the larger part of Europe -- Germany is united. What do you make of the rise of extreme right political parties -- of a fascistic parties?

JR: I'm worried I must say. After all some of the conflicts that I read about in the newspapers and TV remind me of the years -- the 20s in Germany when the same sort of clashes occurred in Berlin. And it worries me and I hope that in the spirit of democracy we will prevail in Germany.

CO: Jens after all these years, it's good to hear you on the show again. Thank you.

JR: Yeah. Let's meet again in 20 years. [Laughter]

CO: For sure. [Laughs]

JR: I am joking. [Laughs]

CO: Well, I hope you have many more anniversaries of this kind. Thank you.

JR: Thank you.

KG: Jens Reich is a molecular biologist, physician, and former pro-democracy activist from East Germany. On October 2nd of this year he was awarded the Federal Republic of Germany's Order of Merit -- the highest honor given to individuals for services to the country. We reached him at home in Berlin. For more on this story, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Reading: Dual Citizens

KG: In its author's words, "Dual Citizens" is about sisterhood, motherhood, the desire to be an artist and what it means to be free. The novel by Alix Ohlin is one of six books shortlisted for this year's 100,000 dollar Scotiabank Giller Prize. The winner will be announced later this month. Before that, we're featuring readings from all six finalists on our show. First up, here is Alix Ohlin, with an excerpt from her book -- whose narrator Lark is often eclipsed by her brilliant sister, Robin.

SOUNDCLIP

ALIX OHLIN: It goes like this. A sunny day in June, the leafy heat of summer at odds with my frozen terror as I stood fixed to the ground. The air, thick and still as a wall against Robin's ragged breath. And the wolf my sister had named Catherine, inspecting us both with her yellow eyes. Robin was 38 weeks pregnant at the time. And she just irritably informed me that pregnancy lasted 10 months -- not 9. She was angry about this as if there had been a conspiracy to keep her misinformed. She was angry in general because she was hot and uncomfortable and couldn't sleep. We were walking down a trail behind her house that led to a canopy of pine trees, hoping the air would be cooler there. Walking was all Robin wanted to do although she complained about this too -- her hips hurt, her knees hurt, her ribs hurt. Complaining wasn't typical of my sister who is stoically, even savagely, independent. And it worried me. We stopped every few steps so she could catch her breath. And when we did, I watched her stroke her belly. She wasn't. In other ways. Tender toward the baby inside her or herself. She frowned. "What are you doing?" "Nothing." "You're touching yourself," she said. I hadn't realized until then that I was imitating her, making myself a mirror. My palm was flat against my own stomach. Though there was nothing to stroke. I flushed with embarrassment and my sister gave her harsh bark of a laugh. "It's okay," she said. "I get it." But how could she get it? She didn't live in my body any more than I could live in hers. We stood body to body. Sister to sister. Across an impossible divide. Then her eyes moved to a point behind my head. "Look," she said. We saw the wolf trot out of the forest like a lost dog looking for its home. From her strange gait, one leg hobbled, we knew it was Catherine. Her gray brown fur looked nodded and flat. Her body narrow hipped and sinewy. It was possible we thought later that she was searching for her pack. To me, it hardly matters. Her motives aren't my concern. What I remember is her graceless stagger and how quickly she moved despite it. How when she bore down on us so close that I could see her eyes -- I couldn't tell whether she recognized us, whether the bond Robin had nurtured with her was sturdy or significant or the slightest bit present in her mind.

KG: Scotiabank Giller Prize finalist Alix Ohlin reading from her novel "Dual Citizens" at a recent 'Between the Pages' event at Toronto's Koerner Hall. The winner of this year's 100,000 dollar prize will be announced at a gala on November 18th, hosted by Jann Arden.

[Music]

Part 3: Canada 'like a dream' for refugee who spent 6 years in Australia's Manus Island camp

Truck deaths follow-up

Guest: Simon Nguyen

KG: There were 39 people, each in terribly desperate situations. And today, police in the UK said several of the victims who died last month inside a refrigerator truck were teenagers -- some as young as 15-years-old. They were all Vietnamese nationals, making the long, perilous journey to the UK in search of a better life. Just over two weeks ago, they boarded the truck in which they would die. Their bodies were found in Essex, in southeast England. And a Northern Irish man has been charged with manslaughter. Police are seeking three other men in connection to the deaths. Reverend Simon Nguyen has been a go-between for the families of the victims and the Essex police. We reached the Vietnamese Catholic priest in London.

CO: Reverend Simon we know that of the 39 victims who were inside that truck, 10 of them were teenagers -- some as young as 15-years-old. How difficult is that for you to process?

SIMON NGUYEN: Oh it is very very hard. You know the family of this 15-year-old, I visited the mortuary of this body with the parents. So it was very distressful to see the body of this young man. I found it very very difficult to come to terms with such a tragedy.

CO: Maybe if you can tell us how these teenagers became involved in this. Because we know that a lot of adults are leaving Vietnam trying to get work done.

SN: Because his mother and father, they all live here. And did it why? Maybe the family -- the parents -- couldn't get the paper or anything. I don't know. But his father and his mother they live here. They are living in London.

CO: And so they were expecting their son to arrive in this country. What have they learned as to how their son ended up dead in this truck?

SN: The boy -- wherever he went -- he always called his father and his mother. But since the incident happened, he stopped calling. So they suspected he was one of the victims.

CO: Did the family know that this was risky? That this was going to be a dangerous journey for their son?

SN: Many of them they knew so well, you know. And I also told them many times that this is very very dangerous. I advised them -- could you please pass on the message to the people in Vietnam not to try to do it this way because it is very very dangerous? You know the incident could happen at any time -- sooner or later. It is just a matter of time.

CO: And so you have spoken with this family that's in the United Kingdom. But other families still in Vietnam -- you have spoken to them about their loved ones who have died in this truck. Is that right?

SN: Yes. I spoke to them through email -- through messages. So I tried to speak with these families.

CO: You have talked to families who are afraid to talk to the police. Why are they scared?

SN: Maybe because it could be from the people who are organizing the trip or because of the application to be sent to the UK or many reasons behind.

CO: You said that you've talked to the family of this one young man whose parents live here. But so many of the others who died, their families are back in Vietnam. How are they going to get the bodies back for burial? What are you hearing from them about that process?

SN: I visited the bodies -- some of the bodies have been filed, and the families you know they came forward because of the encouragement from the police. And some of them they listened to the encouragement. I accompany them to do the blessing and also to pray for [inaudible] these people. And now when I ask the police, what is the next step? They said that is the work of the two countries -- the two governments. The government in the UK and the government in Vietnam. They have to work together. And what they are going to do, they don't know. They didn't know anything. They tell me you just follow the official announcement from the office of the Essex Police Station.

CO: We know from other interviews that it's very very important for the Vietnam people to have the body back to bury in their home and close to their relatives. And so how frustrating, how painful, is this for the families who have not just lost their kids or their loved ones but can't get the bodies back?

SN: It's unbearable. It is too much for them because for them to see even their dead body, it is a great relief for them. And that is why they insisted on having the body back to Vietnam because their children, their relatives, couldn't make the trip. But now they can be united. Not as living, but as a dead person. The unity of the dead and the living. So they insisted on having their body back to Vietnam.

CO: Do you think those families are ever going to know the whole story of what happened to their kids and their relatives who went in that truck?

SN: I doubt it because that is very very complicated. Because it is an organized crime so I don't know whether the information will be revealed to them. I don't know. But, you know, it is quite complicated because of the many people -- the awful crime. But the more they know, the more pain they have.

CO: You're planning some kind of a service on Sunday. What is that for?

SN: It is to remember and to pray for the souls of these people -- number one. Number two, because we have asked the police about a farewell, a goodbye, ceremony for these bodies. But that is not in the jurisdiction of the police. So in the meantime, the official number has been pronounced. So we can do this. You know, it's like a way that we can give respect to the dead people and also the way that we can say goodbye to you and have a good journey back to Vietnam where you can sleep at peace forever.

CO: Reverend Simon our sympathies go out to those families who are dealing with this. And I appreciate you speaking with us. Thank you.

SN: Okay. Bye bye.

KG: Reverend Simon Nguyen is a Vietnamese Catholic priest. We reached him in London.

[Music]

Firefighters

KG: Volunteer firefighters with Cape Breton's Reserve Mines Department were about to be 5,000 dollars richer. They were smoking the competition in an online photo contest that pits Nova Scotia firehalls against one another while keeping their shirts on. Firefighters throw on their best gear, roll out their trucks. And for the Reserve Mines Department, that meant borrowing a helicopter too. But when the chief saw the entry from Smith's Cove in southern Nova Scotia, he felt maybe his opponents were getting hosed. CBC's Information Morning Cape Breton heard from Reserve Mines Chief Jeff Aucoin -- and Brandon Brinton, the deputy chief of the Smith's Cove Volunteer Fire Department.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Our deputy chief approached me. We've entered this contest in the past and he had an idea to have a chopper hover above our guys while we had our trucks in the background and it really turned out to be a great photo. So when we submitted it, it kind of took off. We gained momentum early and we were really having a great response. So we're feeling really good about it. And then, you know, out of nowhere, we saw a post from the department that was in second place, Smith's Cove, telling us their story about not having proper turnout equipment and really struggling with funding and trying to survive in a big department world. And most volunteers are all in the same boat where we're all fighting for money. But we saw this as an opportunity to help out a department that was much less fortunate than us. And there was unanimous support to help these guys out. You know, they don't have any equipment that's not expired. It was an eye opening experience to see how bad a shape that they were really in. We thought it was a no-brainer to turn around and help them out.

VOICE 2: We were starting to panic a little bit when we had fallen behind. Our chief was doing everything he could to try and get us in that first place. And then when they got ahold of us, we were all kind of standing on edge because it'd be only one reason why they would be trying to get hold of us. So we were all just incredibly moved and we're extremely grateful for what they've done. Our whole department -- it'll get us two new sets of gear. I recently got my first -- I've been a firefighter for 10 years, the first time was about two weeks ago that I had had full new gear that was fitted for me. So to put two of our firefighters in the same situation as I was where they're going to have fitted gear, it's an extremely good feeling. We are all volunteers. We all work during the day or we work during the night. All of our time with the fire department is taken out of our personal lives. So when we fundraise, we had to ask our members to drop what they're doing, to come away from their families to help try and raise this money. So it is an extremely big deal. It might not seem like much to a bigger department, but for us smaller guys it really helps out.

KG: That's Brandon Brinton, the deputy chief of the Smith's Cove Volunteer Fire Department. Before that, you heard from Reserve Mines chief Jeff Aucoin speaking to CBC's George Mortimer. Both firehalls were competing in a photo contest for a 5,000 dollar cash prize when Reserve Mines threw their support behind Smith's Cove. And today, the official announcement: Smith's Cove won.

[Music]

Burkina Faso deaths

Guest: Corinne Dufka

KG: Burkina Faso is in three days of mourning after an attack on a convoy of buses earlier this week left at least 38 people dead, 60 injured, and dozens more still missing. The buses were carrying groups of local workers for the Quebec-based mining company Semafo. They were ambushed on their way to the Boungou Mine, about 350 kilometres outside the capital Ouagadougou. Survivors of the attack described chaotic scenes and gunmen hiding in the bushes. And it's just the latest violence in a country where security has deteriorated sharply. Corinne Dufka is the associate director for West Africa with Human Rights Watch. We reached her in Washington, DC.

CO: Ms. Dufka we have seen a number of attacks in Burkina Faso in recent months, but was Wednesday's ambush different?

CORINNE DUFKA: Yeah this is an extremely brutal attack. Clearly attacks against civilians have been increasing in the north but we haven't seen such a lethal attack in the east since 2016 when this problem broke out in Burkina Faso.

CO: What does that tell you about the level of violence and where it's coming from?

CD: You know the violence against civilians in particular has been trending dangerously up in Burkina Faso over the last six months. I've documented a number of very serious attacks on churches, on mosques, on villages that have left scores dead. But this really is one of the most worrying and lethal attacks that we've seen since 2016 when armed Islamists first started operating in that country.

CO: Has anyone claimed responsibility? Is the assumption it is the Islamists who have been terrorizing other parts of that region?

CD: Yes that is the assumption. No one has claimed responsibility yet. But it's entirely consistent with other attacks against civilians, even though this one was much more lethal.

CO: More lethal, as in 38 people dead, 60 injured, dozens still missing who were in these buses, who were local workers going to this Quebec-based mining company. Do you think they were targeted in any way?

CD: Well, it's difficult to say, because of course given the persistent insecurity in this region, there was a military escort. And we understand that that military escort, which I believe was in front of the convoy, hit an IED. And at that point, the attack started. From what we understand, there was a lot of gunfire back and forth. We haven't been able to go on the ground yet, but we do understand that numerous civilians were gunned down inside and as they tried to escape from the buses.

CO: What is the government in Burkina Faso saying about this?

CD: Well, they've clearly condemned it. You know, I think the Burkina government is extremely worried about the pace of expansion of the armed Islamist groups in Burkina Faso. You'll recall that the violence really spread from Mali and [inaudible] into Burkina Faso. And Burkina Faso is what we call a linchpin country that bridges the Sahel to the north with the coastal West African states. So you know Burkina Faso and the international community are extremely worried about the apparent strength of these armed Islamist groups.

CO: This was a Canadian company that owns the mine where these people worked. Are they doing anything to help protect the workers? I mean this a profitable industry for them. What are they doing to protect those people who are locally hired to do these jobs?

CD: Well, we understand that, you know, they organized military escorts. I can't speak to the type of security they had at the mine, but this clearly isn't the first time they have been attacked and other companies have been attacked. You know, I think it suggests that the Islamists out are trying to target some of the financial bases -- Burkina Faso's wealth. You know mining is a big part of their economic base. Last year, there were three people including a South African and an Indian kidnaped on their way to a mine in the north. And there have been a number of other attacks as well.

CO: And we know that there are people who have come from abroad who work there -- Canadians in the region who have been attacked, kidnaped, and the company -- this gold mine company, Semafo -- is transporting its expat workers by helicopter since the attacks in 2018. So they're doing what they can. But is there a problem for the local workers? They're still taking the buses, even though they've got armed guards. Clearly, it's not sufficient if they can be ambushed like this.

CD: Yeah, I would imagine that the company didn't expect this type of attack and the brutal targeting of civilians. But, you know, I would say also even journalists and aid workers, you know often when expats who are much more targeted for kidnaping, as you know, in Canada because of course one of your own citizens was kidnaped about a year ago. You know, they are much more vulnerable to kidnaping. And, you know there's just never enough security. I know a few people who worked at that mine and they escaped this one. But they spoke about how painful it was knowing nearly all the people who died. So it's really a terrible terrible attack.

CO: We'll just mentioned that Canadian that you spoke of was Kirk Woodman who was kidnaped and he was murdered.

CD: That was the second one. Yeah. I mean you had Edith who was kidnaped from Quebec in December. And then the kidnaping in which Kirk Woodman was killed.

CO: She was traveling. She was a tourist I believe.

CD: Yes, she was traveling.

CO: But returning to the gold mining issue -- and I guess Kirk Woodman was a miner, worked in the mining industry and he was kidnaped and killed. And that's who you're referring to. At the same time gold mining in this region is dangerous. It is in many parts of the world. But what we're seeing with the price of gold certainly becomes more expensive with the added security. But it's just the cost of doing business. It's not diminishing the demand for gold on world markets. And for the local people they're faced with the need of those jobs, aren't they? I mean, they have to take these risks to have them. So I just wonder, how concerned are you that these people are very vulnerable to their own needs to work in these mines?

CD: Yeah, I know people who worked in gold mines, large gold mines, in northern Burkina Faso. And when the insecurity grew in that part of the country they then took jobs in the east because it was much more peaceful. And then from last year, the attacks started in the east. You know, there was a detectable presence of the armed Islamists in the eastern part of the country. But again, you know, we hadn't seen this type of large scale attack on civilians. And it'll be a watershed moment likely for the national authorities and for the international community, including international businesses, now that this this tragedy has happened.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there Ms. Dufka thank you.

CD: Thank you.

KG: Corinne Dufka is the associate director for West Africa with Human Rights Watch. We reached her in Washington, DC.

[Music]

Manus Island detainee

Guest: Amir Sahragard

KG: For years, Amir Sahragard has been trapped in a nightmare. After fleeing his home in Iran, Mr. Sahragard first went to Indonesia and then set his sights on Australia to seek asylum. But before he could get there, in 2013, the Australian government announced a new policy. It would not settle any refugees who arrived by boat. Instead, Mr. Sahragard found himself in the notorious offshore detention centre on Manus Island in Papua New Guinea. The conditions at the detention centre have been condemned by the U.N. with allegations of abuse and cruelty. Now Mr. Sahragard has finally found a new home in Toronto. He's the first Manus Island refugee to be privately sponsored by a group called Ads-Up Canada. We reached Amir Sahragard in Toronto.

CO: Amir first of all welcome to Canada.

AMIR SAHRAGARD: Thank you so much.

CO: What was that moment like when you arrived in Toronto airport last week?

AS: It was just like a dream come true. And I'm still sometimes thinking that I'm dreaming.

CO: Tell us about where you were before -- what those conditions were. You were on Manus Island. This is where -- as far as Australia would let you come into its country. They put you on Manus Island. What was it like?

AS: Yeah it was a detention centre. It was actually like a prison -- even worse than prison because we were not allowed to have a visitor. And it was a really really dangerous place. Not safe for anyone to go out. There was lots of robbing and things like that happen for lots of people there.

CO: We interviewed a man who wrote a book about living there, about being a refugee there, it was called No Friend But the Mountains." And he described it was just hell to be on Manus Island -- it was violent, very dangerous, and people were killed.

AS: It was exactly like hell. And we saw our friends get killed. We saw all of our friends -- around 70 people -- get injured on a day. And that it was the local police or I actually don't know who they were, and they came and beat. And (they) actually scared us and beat us. And it was really like a scary movie. You cannot even see those things in scary movie.

CO: How many years were you there?

AS: More than six years.

CO: 2013 -- that's when you left your home country of Iran?

AS: Yeah.

CO: Why did you go? Why did you decide to make this difficult and dangerous journey?

AS: I didn't decide to go to Australia. It wasn't my decision. It was my mom. And I found out when I was in Indonesia and I could not change it because my mom already paid. And it was like I had to go. I didn't have any option or money or whatever. And I could not change that decision.

CO: But why did you leave Iran?

AS: I had personal problem and things like with the government.

CO: You felt you couldn't stay there. It was not safe for you?

AS: Exactly.

CO: And it must been very difficult for your mother to arrange something that she knew was going to be very difficult for you on your own.

AS: Yeah, exactly. But from outside, it's not really that dangerous. When you're on the boat you can see how dangerous it is when you see the journey, when you see like going through dangle and there are lots of things that I can't even think of then right now because it really gave me stress to think about lots of things that I had.

CO: How old were you when you left Iran?

AS: 21.

CO: And you were just by yourself?

AS: Yeah, exactly.

CO: So you spent all those years on Manus Island. Terrible place. When did you hear that you were going to be sponsored to come to Canada?

AS: One of my friend there and he actually introduced me to one of the Australian friend that we all know there. And she gave me a contact of the person who is my sponsor now -- his name is Stephen Watt. And he did everything for me.

CO: And you mentioned Stephen Watt. He's from Toronto. And he's part of a group called Ads-Up Canada -- who are trying to help people who are on Manus Island to get here. Are there possibilities for other people there to come to Canada?

AS: There are people who are actually getting their sponsorship. And there is one who is coming today. And there are actually around seven or eight under process. And there are lots that are going to get this sponsorship. And as I said, they are all like my friend -- all of them are my friend and like family to me. And I'm only doing this to help them. It's really hard for me to talk about my past. It's given me real stress and anxiety. But the only reason that I'm doing this is because I want this for them.

CO: What do you hope your life will be like in Canada? What are you hoping for yourself now?

AS: I only think that I need to get back my health. I have been sick mentally and physically. And I get lots of stress and anxiety all the time because of the years that I had spent in detention and lots of things that I saw there. So the first thing that I need and I want is to get back my health. And after that, I'm going to study or do things like that.

CO: Amir, I wish you a successful life here in Canada. Thank you.

AS: Thank you so much. And I really want to take a minute and really say thank you to all the people who are helping people like me -- to give them their life back. You know it's the only thing that they have is you people and they really need your help. And because it's the only solution for them right now and it is saving life actually. With whatever that they are doing they are saving lots of life there. As I said, I had no future, no hope. But now I have all of them and I'm starting to dream again like when I was a teenager.

CO: I'm glad to hear that Amir. And I hope it all goes well for you. Thank you.

AS: Bye.

KG: Amir Sahragard arrived in Canada last Thursday after six years on Manus Island. We have more on Mr. Sahragard's story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Karolina Rybka

KG: Karolina Rybka was a child in Poland when the Second World War began. Russian soldiers put her and her family on a crowded train to Siberia, where her mother and a sister died of typhoid fever. As the family starved, her father put his remaining children in an orphanage where Ms. Rybka might have stayed were it not for an unexpected act of kindness. Ms. Rybka was one of 1000 Polish orphans who were taken in by the Indian Maharaja -- and cared for at his palace. And with Remembrance Day around the corner, the Kelowna woman is remembering the kind Maharaja who saved her life. Here's part of her conversation with CBC's Belle Purre for the record.

SOUNDCLIP

KAROLINA RYBKA: I never seen my dad again. After that, they leave us to the orphanage. And then they put us on army trucks and took us to India. It took some time to get to India. We went through the mountains -- Himalayan mountains there.

BELLE PURRE: Did you know where you were going or what was going to happen?

KAROLINA RYBKA: No. They never told us nothing. So I guess we just accepted whatever they said. Because nobody complained. I never see nobody crying or nothing. So we got to India. There was 300 children there. They were treating us good. We had food all the time, three times a day. We never starved there. And we had a public school there. And then we had dancing groups. And then we dance for Maharaja one time.

BELLE PURRE: Did you meet the Maharaja?

KAROLINA RYBKA: We met him because we danced for him. Yeah.

BELLE PURRE: Tell me about him. What do you know about him?

KAROLINA RYBKA: I don't know nothing about him. I can't remember nothing. He was just there and he treated us good. We stayed about 1942 to 1947.

BELLE PURRE: And what happened in 1947?

KAROLINA RYBKA: They send us to England -- just my family, because I had two brothers in England. So they have to send all the [inaudible] because when India got freedom from the British so all the white people had to move out from India. And there's lots of kids. There are 300 in my orphanage. There's 700 in the other orphanage. That's thousand kids. And whoever had family where, that's where they sent them.

BELLE PURRE: What do you think of this Maharaja and what he did for you? If he was here, what would you say to him?

KAROLINA RYBKA: I would give you a big hug because he saved our lives. Yeah he did because nobody else wanted us. He was the one that took us in.

KG: That's Karolina Rybka -- one of 1000 Polish orphans who were taken in by the Indian Maharaja during the Second World War.

[Music]

CO: We are at the end of this edition of As It Happens. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio One. And if you want to listen to our program live or on demand anytime, make sure you download the CBC Listen app. I'm Carol Off. Thanks for listening.

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November 8, 2019 Episode Transcript

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