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The AIH Transcript for October 22, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Nana aba Duncan

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello. I'm Carol off.

NANA ABA DUNCAN: Hi. I'm Nana aba Duncan. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

ND: Tonight...

CO: The map is all over the map. Canadian voters give the Liberal Party a minority government, but a look across the country shows distressing partisan divisions.

ND: It wasn't a check-mate -- but Andrew Scheer is promising to keep the prime minister in check. Outgoing Conservative MP Lisa Raitt says that despite the party's disappointing showing, the opposition leader will be a powerful counter to Justin Trudeau.

CO: The voice of region. Alberta and Saskatchewan elected exactly zero Liberal MPs -- and a frustrated former Western MP says that shows it's time for those two provinces to go solo.

ND: Politics makes estranged bedfellows. Things were nasty between the Conservatives and Liberals during the campaign, but a Liberal MP says he sees a possible collaboration between the two parties on pipelines.

CO: Frock of ages. While visiting a village church in England, our guest discovers a fancy cloth draped on the altar -- that turns out to be a 400-year-old dress that was once draped on the body of Queen Elizabeth the First.

ND: And many hands make lighthouse work. It was in danger of toppling into the sea because of erosion -- so today in Denmark, a dedicated team moved an entire 700-tonne lighthouse away from the brink. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that hopes they didn't go off the beacon track.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Conservative Lisa Raitt loses seat but says party is 'on the rise' under Andrew Scheer

Election: Lisa Raitt

Guests: Lisa Raitt

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: From coast to coast to coast, tonight, Canadians rejected division and negativity. [Crowd cheers] They rejected cuts and austerity. And they voted in favor of a progressive agenda and strong action on climate change.

ND: That was Justin Trudeau doing his best to sound optimistic at his victory party last night. But Canadian voters have reduced the prime minister and his Liberals to a minority in Parliament. That leaves them looking for opposition support before any of their legislation can take flight. And this morning in Regina, Conservative leader Andrew Scheer promised his supporters that he'd be waiting to clip Mr. Trudeau's wings.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: Canadians have passed judgment on Justin Trudeau on his four years of failures, scandals, and mismanagement. And just as we gained across the country, Trudeau and the Liberals lost. He lost seats in every region. And Canadians have put his government on notice. Canadians woke up this morning to a more divided country. The separatist Bloc Quebecois is back on the rise. Alberta and Saskatchewan have completely rejected Trudeau's policies. When I spoke to Justin Trudeau last night, I urged him to take notice of the significant and troubling results. And more words and platitudes will not cut it. He must be willing to change course, to stop his attacks on the energy sector, and to recognize that when western Canada succeeds all of Canada succeeds. And to those in the west, I hear your frustration and your anger.

ND: That was Conservative leader Andrew Scheer in Regina today. And the frustration with the Liberals isn't all in the west. Lisa Raitt was the Conservatives' Deputy Leader before this campaign. But last night she lost in her Ontario riding of Milton to the Liberals giant-killer, Olympic paddler Adam van Koeverden. We reached Lisa Raitt in Milton.

CO: Ms. Raitt what happened last night?

LISA RAITT: Well, clearly, the Liberals certainly got a message that Canadians were not going to give them an automatic majority. And the Conservatives did better than they did in 2015. So we're on the rise and they are on the fall. And it's going to be an important parliament for the next couple of years.

CO: What happened to you?

LR: Well, you know, I'm grateful that I made it through 2015. I mean I was the lone holdout from that giant red-wave that came through the GTA. And as a result, I was able to represent Mitlonians for another four years. And quite frankly, we ran a great campaign. I'm so grateful to all my volunteers. And we put the effort in but you know the voter always gets it right. And they chose to go in the direction with Mr. van Koeverden. And all I can do is thank them for the best 11 years that I've been able to experience.

CO: We won't be seeing you in the House of Commons. But last night we heard Andrew Scheer sending a message to Mr. Trudeau that he says when the Liberal government falls, Conservatives will be ready to win. Does that mean that we'll be seeing a lot of the bitter partisanship that marked this campaign? Is that going to continue in the future for all of us?

LR: I believe that Canadians set out to give somebody a minority, whether it was us or the Liberals. They clearly had decided that nobody was going to have a majority in the country and that they wanted to see us work together. And I think every party, every single one of the parties now -- if I could say speaking from the outside -- are going to have to have that in the back of their mind as they plot their course because Canadians are watching and they want to see people to work with one another, but they also want to see the parties uphold the values that they voted for. So I think you know our leader Andrew Scheer set the course very well last night when he said that we'll be ready and we're going to hold you to account. And we'll have to see what the Liberals and the NDP decide how they're going to approach parliament coming up.

CO: We've seen an election 65 percent of Canadians voted for parties on the left or the centre-left. And the one thing in common among them is that they were very passionate about fighting climate change. One party did not have a platform that was passionate about fighting climate change, and that was the Conservatives. Do you think that that hurt you?

LR: You know it's interesting because if you look at the Liberal platform and our platform the biggest difference was of course the carbon tax. But there were some similarities in there. We both talked about the home renovation tax credit and we both talked about using technology and investment in technology. And we've all talked about the importance of sending our products around the world. So there's a lot of similarities. Carbon tax was the big divider of course. We still don't believe that it was something that's going to help reduce emissions. But nonetheless, we're going to go forward in a minority parliament and deal with the issues that are brought to the fore as they come up from the government.

CO: Do you think had you done more -- had you been more on top of the climate change file, been more passionate, more determined about it -- you might have won last night?

LR: Lot of what ifs. And I know that there was going to be smart folks in Ontario looking at all of the individual ridings to see what would have changed the vote or if you could have changed the vote. So it's hard to say right now what would have made the difference. But I know that going forward, we're going to try to find those things that will make the difference in the next election.

CO: Do you think the people did not vote Conservative because the platform was as Chris Selley, the columnist, was saying today, that it was "a dumb, pandering, unambitious mess that reeked of focus grouping?"

LR: I think talking to Canadians in grassroots is an important part of understanding what they're looking for from a government or a potential government. And I think that is exactly the way that you should move forward. When we did our policy platform, we developed a very strong framework and reached out to every constituency and we reached out to every MP and candidate to put forth their ideas. And what we put forward was an amalgamation of it all. We'll have to take a look at whether or not it resonated with certain parts of the country. But we also won more seats than we did last time. So certainly it did resonate. And the Liberals they are held to a minority. They lost seats. Every party is going to learn from where they lost. I'm sure the Liberals are going through this as are the NDP. And you want to make for a better election the next time.

CO: Anything you can point to, you say you should do differently or do you think that what you did was the right campaign? It was the right platform?

LR: In my local campaign, we did everything that we were asked to do. My team worked so hard. They did a great job and I was proud to run on the policies that we ran on. And I enjoyed explaining them to Miltonians and trying to sell them on what our vision was. They didn't accept it and the voter always gets it right.

CO: Just on your roll and where the party goes from here without you -- you have been perceived by many as the deputy leader of the party, but you were for many conservatives you were the progressive face of the party. You were the one who would be in the pride parade when Andrew Scheer and others would not. You were the one who would speak up for the social agenda. You were the one when we interviewed you just some weeks ago you said that the reason why you knew the Conservative government of Andrew Scheer would never re-open the abortion debate because, quote, "you wouldn't let that happen." So who plays that role now without you?

LR: Well, I may not be elected in parliament, but I'm still a card carrying Conservative. And I'm going to be working within the grassroots that I have here in Milton, Ontario. And I will be making my concerns known and my voice known if I see anything that's happening that I'm not in agreement with -- just like every other conservative can across the country. And I think that with over 120 members that Andrew has to work with, it's going to be fantastic. Michelle Rempel, Candice Bergen, Erin O'Toole. I can name them all. They're going to do a fantastic job and it's going to be up to other members of parliament to determine exactly what they're going to bring to the House of Commons from their community. And I'm sure that there's going to be people that we don't know today, that in four years from today, we're going to say, "Wow. They are a great member of parliament."

CO: Do you think Andrew Scheer should step down?

LR: No, not at all. I think he added to the seat count. That's what he was expected and that's what we anticipated. He also held Mr. Trudeau to a minority. And we also now have far more maneuverability on committees to allow us to ask questions and get answers that we were unable to get before because of the majority control of committees. So I think that mission accomplished and who would have thought in 2015 that they wouldn't have had an automatic eight years.

CO: Ms. Raitt we will leave it there. And I suspect we'll be speaking again.

LR: Oh that'll be great. Thanks Carol. Have a good day.

ND: Lisa Raitt is the former Conservative Deputy Leader and Milton MP. Last night, she lost her Ontario riding to the Liberals. And that's where we reached Ms. Raitt. And we've got more on Lisa Raitt and the election results on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Election: Liberal MP

Guest: Mark Holland

ND: In Quebec, last night was a big one for the Bloc Quebecois. They went from winning a mere 10 seats in the 2015 federal election to 32 this time around. And that shift contributed to the Liberals winning just a minority government. But Bloc Quebecois leader Yves-Francois Blanchet says he's eager to see the Liberals make that status work.

SOUNDCLIP

YVES-FRANCOIS BLANCHET: The responsibility of the prime minister and the Liberal Party is to make this parliament work. It is their responsibility, not ours. Not the responsibility of the NDP or the Conservative. Mr. Trudeau has this duty. And there's a law saying that the mandates are supposed to last four years and they should do what it takes in complete respect of the decisions of the Canadians and Quebeckers to make this work.

ND: But if Yves-Francois Blanchet is going to get his wish, then Mark Holland and his colleagues are going to have their work cut out for them. Mr. Holland is the newly re-elected MP for the Toronto-area riding of Ajax. And in the last parliament, it was his job to keep legislation moving as government whip. We reached Mark Holland in Ajax, Ontario.

CO: Mr. Holland how difficult will it be to make this parliament work?

MARK HOLLAND: Well I think every parliament is a challenge. You know this is the nature of our democratic system trying to balance all the interests across the country.

CO: But you have a minority. So what does that mean?

MH: Absolutely. And it's my fourth minority. So you know I've gone through this a number of times. But I think the challenge is while they're more intense they are the same. That you have to balance the different interests of the country. You have to find a way to compromise, to make things work, and to allow everybody to move ahead together. And in a minority government that cooperation is just more evident.

CO: But what's the sticking point here? I mean you say that it is the same as all. But really when you have two different parties, three different parties, with different interests and you're trying to cooperate with them in order to not have the government fall, it's not the same thing as having different interests in different parts of the country, isn't it? So what will stick you together?

MH: I think it will stick us together is the will of Canadians. There's a lot of things whether or not it's the environment or it's investing in infrastructure or it's housing. There's lots of things that we have in common and can work on together that the work that we have to do is to move the country forward and to find common ground. And that's what the people who elected us expect us to do.

CO: But you're going to have to work cooperatively with these other parties. And so you've got one that's in there that's dedicated to taking part of the country out of confederation -- breaking up the country essentially. So how closely will you cooperate the Bloc Quebecois?

MH: Well I look at it this way, the people who voted for the Bloc Quebecois in large part -- it's certainly my belief looking at the way the numbers have moved -- are interested in advancing Quebec and the interests of Quebec and Quebeckers. I don't necessarily think that people that voted for them were supportive of the idea of separating from the country. Those are two very different things. So you know what we're going to do is provide a progressive agenda to move the country ahead, to help those who are in the middle class, to help lift those who are trying to join it, to work on issues like the environment. And if people are going to play games or try to play out other agendas that they weren't elected to, to proceed with, then I think they do that at their peril.

CO: You've got a great big issue, don't you? You've got pipelines that are going to be quite politicized here. The NDP, the Greens, the Bloc are all against pipelines. So is the Trans Mountain pipeline deal dead?

MH: Look we've said from the very beginning that it's essential that we find a way to get our oil to new markets. Right now, over 99 percent of our oil goes to the United States, and we're not getting the best prices that we can get for it. And we need to be able to diversify those markets. And I think that Canadians feel very strongly about the need to do that while at the same time take care of the environment. And certainly we're going to continue to work in that direction.

CO: But you have no seats now in Alberta or Saskatchewan -- the Liberals don't. So what obligations do you feel you have to the concerns of those provinces?

MH: I have the same obligation to the concerns of people in Alberta as I do with the people in my riding who didn't vote for me. So I think that the idea that we didn't get seats in a particular place that somehow we shouldn't care about that place misses the point that drives this office, which is to make this country a better place and to do good on behalf of the citizens who elected us and those who didn't.

CO: But you're saying you have an obligation -- you want to help to get the product of Alberta, the oil sands product, to market or I guess all oil, all fossil fuels, from that province -- you want to get them to market with the pipeline. You need to work with an opposition that is dead set against pipelines. So when...

MH: I don't think that's the position of the Conservative Party.

CO: Of course you're right. But the others, the ones that you probably will be working with.

MH: Well I think what you're going to see in this minority government is that we have to work with different people on different issues and that there is balance to be found in all of these issues. Now, in terms of the environment we've all seen...

CO: Can I just stop you there -- let me clarify something very important you just said. So there's a strong possibility that when it comes to building pipelines or doing what you want to do with Alberta and Saskatchewan, that you will be working with the Conservatives when you need them?

MH: I mean other than a few hours of sleep there's not a lot of time that has passed since the last election. What you can expect is that we're all going to be working together in having to find ways of discussing how to move the country forward.

CO: So you're saying you would collaborate with the Conservatives where you need them in order to get some kind of legislation or some movement on something, even though the Conservatives say they're dedicated to bringing down your government. So you think you have room to negotiate, room to to collaborate, with the Conservatives?

MH: I think any party that says that their objective the day after an election is to cause another election is absurdity. Look we just spent more than six months every single day doing a job application -- a hundred times a day. And people now expect us to do the job. And I think anybody who's fixated on electoral politics instead of delivering results for the constituents that elect them is going to have a very hard time in the next election.

CO: Can you see a scenario where your Liberals and the Conservatives will work together in order to get pipelines built?

MH: I can see it in a scenario where we can work with the Greens, the NDP, and the Conservatives on an issue by issue basis. And I think that's what a minority government is about. And I think that's what people expect from us.

CO: Can I take that as a yes?

MH: Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't see what the problem is, right, working together. I mean that's what people expect us to do. I think where we can find common cause, where we can find a way to advance the interests of the nation together, we should embrace that.

CO: Just one final question. We saw when Stephen Harper had a minority -- he made it work because the opposition couldn't afford to fight another election. But then when he finally faced a non-confidence vote he used the powers of prorogation. Is that something that you could see the Liberals doing?

MH: Look what I envision for this parliament is that we as a Liberal Party is going to put forward an aggressive agenda to move Canadians forward, to help the middle class, to help industry. And we're going to invite other parties to work with us to accomplish that. And that if other parties are simply focused on their electoral calculations or on agendas that they were not voted for, then that's something they're going to have to answer for.

CO: So can I take that as a yes again on prorogation... [Laughs]

MH: I'm answered the question the way that I felt. But you can interpret it as well. I mean projecting a hypothetical into the future about an imaginary scenario -- I mean one of the things I know about now that this being my fourth minority government is that clairvoyance is not something I'm blessed with.

CO: All right. We'll leave it there. Mr. Holland, thank you.

MH: Thank you so much.

ND: That's Mark Holland who was re-elected as the Liberal MP for the Toronto-area riding of Ajax yesterday. You can stay tuned for more election coverage coming up, including an interview with former Conservative Party MP Jay Hill who's calling for Alberta's independence. And Carol's conversation with the first Green Party MP elected outside B.C.

[Music]

Queen Elizabeth Dress

Guest: Eleri Lynn

ND: When Queen Elizabeth the First died, she reportedly owned nearly 2000 dresses. Four centuries later, the only parts of her wardrobe thought to have survived were some gloves and riding boots. But last week, a special exhibit opened at Hampton Court Palace called The Lost Dress of Elizabeth the First. Eleri Lynn found that lost dress. But spoiler alert: it wasn't a dress when she discovered it. Ms. Lynn is the collections curator of a charity called Historic Royal Palaces. We reached her in London.

CO: Eleri when did you first see this dress that you believe belonged to Queen Elizabeth the First?

ELERI LYNN: Well I first saw it about four years ago now. I was researching my book "Tudor Fashion" and I came across an image of this object just online and I thought, well that looks a bit intriguing. So I drove to this tiny church in rural Herefordshire to go and visit it.

CO: But it wasn't a dress, was it?

EL: No. That's right. It's actually an alter cloth. So it's a T shaped panel that had been used by them as an alter cloth for several centuries. But there were lots of clues about it that immediately told me that it used to be something else and something of incredible value and rarity.

CO: At what point, looking at this, did you think this might be Queen Elizabeth's dress?

EL: Immediately for lots of reasons. The first thing is that I spotted evidence of pattern cutting, which means evidence that it in fact used to be a dress. But the second thing was that the embroidery on it, which is beautiful flowers and vegetation -- it was of a professional standard that I hadn't ever seen before dating to around the 1590s -- circa 1600 -- in silk and silver and gold. And the real clincher was that it was embroidered on cloth of silver. And in Tudor times, cloth of silver was reserved for the immediate members of the royal family. And actually this particular church was the birthplace and very beloved family home of one Blanche Parry. And Blanche Parry with the First Lady of the bedchamber to Elizabeth the First. And we know that Elizabeth had great affection for her and she gave her many gifts of her own clothing. And we know that Blanche had great affection for her village and she gave them lots of charitable donations. So all of this seemed to be pointing in one very exciting direction.

CO: But why isn't it possible that the dress belonged to someone else in the court? Why specifically do you think Elizabeth the First was wearing it?

EL: Well, at the time that this dress dates from Elizabeth was nearing 70-years-old. And in fact she guarded, very jealously, all the finest fabrics and dresses for herself. She didn't particularly like having other women at court because she wanted the attention of her male courtiers for herself. Most of the other women who were allowed to be there were quite elderly ladies or were women who were expressly told to dress down so as not to incur the wrath of the rather sort of notoriously mercurial Queen. So it's very unlikely that Elizabeth would have granted permission for anybody else to have worn something like it. We know in our research the amount of silver in this object was worth as much as a Tudor mansion. So we really are looking at a real treasure.

CO: Oh, my gosh. This is one dress of her hundreds and thousands in her wardrobe was worth the price of a Tudor mansion.

EL: Yes, absolutely. So we know that when she died, the inventory of her wardrobe listed 2000 items of the most sumptuous luxurious dresses. But none of them were known to have survived, not least because the great storehouse of the royal wardrobe was very famously burned during the Great Fire of London in 1666. So the fact that this has survived really makes it a unique piece.

CO: You figure it came to be in this church -- in St Faith's -- because of Blanch Parry. So why did they turned it into an altar cloth?

EL: Well, it was a very small rural village -- they wouldn't have been allowed to wear cloth of silver. And they would never have dreamed of wearing something of such great value. So to turn it into an altar cloth, it was their way of denigrating it really to make it a sacred object and to value it.

CO: And now you have restored it because it did take work, even though it was in that bad condition. What did it take to actually bring it to the state that it's in now that's on display?

EL: So it's undergone a thousand hours of conservation and research. So it was in a fairly good state considering its age, but it had a sort of a backing of canvas which was starting to pull and tear at the silk. So we removed the canvas and carefully stitched it onto a new special silk backing. But the stitching was done with a mono filament thread which is roughly the same dimensions as a human hair and done with a surgical needle. So you can imagine that doing that very carefully and precisely took a very long time. But interestingly as well, we were able to do dye analysis on it and find out a little bit more about it. And we found some incredibly tantalizing evidence of a global trade. For example, some of the dye in the thread was actually Mexican cochineal red. So this was fantastic evidence of luxury commodities being traded across the Atlantic for the first time.

CO: What was it like for those people, those doing the restoration, to handle something that was not just so old and so beautiful, but that had been worn by Elizabeth the First?

EL: I think for all of us involved, it's been a real labor of love and a real privilege because the artistry of the embroidery is such that you're never tired of looking at it. Actually, I can -- even after four years -- I can stand there and look at it and see a new detail or admire the artistry all over again.

CO: And now it's hanging in Hampton Court Palace. How does it look?

EL: Do you know what? It looks better than I've ever seen it. So it's in a case with case lights on it. And as soon as we put it in there, the silver started to sparkle and glitter. And we hadn't seen that before. And it just brought a whole new lease of life to it. Somebody referred to it as "Tudor hi-viz" which is not exactly glamorous, but most of the court would have been wearing black or velvet. So to be wearing this kind of fantastically embroidered cloth of silver, there would be no doubt that you were looking at the Queen.

CO: Eleri it is a great story and I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

EL: Thank you so much.

ND: Eleri Lynn is the collections curator of a charity called Historic Royal Palaces. We reached her at Hampton Court Palace in London. And if you want to see photos of the dress, you can go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Trudeau's victory has turned this Alberta Conservative into a 'reluctant separatist'

Election: Western alienation

Guest: Jay Hill

ND: In his victory speech last night, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said he wants to govern for all Canadians. But not all Canadians want to be governed by him or the Liberal Party. Quebec elected 32 employees to the sovereignties Bloc Quebecois Party. And in Alberta and Saskatchewan not a single Liberal MP was even elected. When Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe spoke today, his frustration was palpable. He says it's time for a new deal with the federal government.

SOUNDCLIP

SCOTT MOE: In Saskatchewan we had 14 of 14 seats that were won by the Conservative Party. We have no representation in this minority Liberal government. A government that has no clear mandate. A government that will either be propped up by a party that does not want to expand the mining sector, the agriculture sector, the energy sector in this province, or be propped up by a party that ultimately does not want to be part of this nation. Listen, there is frustration here in the prairie provinces. There is a fire burning here in the prairie provinces. What I am doing with handing the prime minister this letter, this opportunity, is handing him a fire extinguisher and I'm asking him not to show up with a gas cap.

ND: Now, if you thought Saskatchewan was frustrated by last night's results, try going further west. The election results have even renewed talk of Western Independence or "Wexit." Jay Hill is a big supporter. He served as an MP in Ottawa for 17 years with the Reform Party and later, Stephen Harper's Conservatives. He pulled over to talk to us just outside of Edmonton.

CO: Mr. Hill you just heard those strong words from Premier Moe from Saskatchewan. There's a fire burning in the prairie provinces and that Justin Trudeau needs to show up with a fire extinguisher instead of a gas can. What do you make of that language?

JAY HILL: I think it's completely appropriate. The sense that I get is that Westerners are extremely frustrated. I think that you're going to see a dramatic increase in Western alienation. And even beyond that, people like myself that become reluctant separatists that want to take the West out of confederation because it clearly no longer works for us.

CO: It's interesting because I remember you in the Reform Party in 1993 and that movement at that time was the West wants in. This idea is now the West wants out. Is that what you're saying?

JH: That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that this is an illegitimate government. It was elected by Ontario. So Ontarians decided to re-elect Mr. Dress-up, despite his clear disdain for western Canada and for our resource industries. And we just simply cannot take it anymore.

CO: What do you make of the fact that well with our money -- Canadian taxpayers' money -- the Liberal government bought a pipeline that was going to...the intentions of which were to try and get your oil product to Tidewater. So you dismiss that as an effort to try and help the industry?

JH: Well, exactly. I think your key word there was the intention. I don't believe he ever did have the intention. He was trying to play both sides against the middle. What we needed was a government that would actually enforce the law and get the damn pipeline built. And he has no grasp of the seriousness of the division that he has created with his laws -- for example, Bill C-69, what we have termed the 'No More Pipelines Act,' C-48, the tanker ban off the West Coast, the about to be imposed federal carbon tax that's going to tax Canadians more. I could go on and on and on. And Westerners are just fed up with it.

CO: Well, we don't know if there is going to be an increase in the carbon tax, but I hear what you're saying. But as you know, I mean the future, it appears, does not include fossil fuels. So even people in the fossil fuel industry are saying that. So what is it you want Canada to do for the west -- for Alberta in particular?

JH: What I want Canada to do now is to negotiate the West leaving confederation, because clearly it doesn't work. We have a prime minister that was re-elected last night with 33 percent of the people that showed up at the polls. And most of those votes were in central and eastern Canada. You wonder why the West feels alienated. I mean it just astounds me.

CO: I just to understand the geography. I mean you're a landlocked province that depends on a resource that is slowly being phased out, which is fossil fuels. So what can you possibly do if you separate?

JH: Your statement that fossil fuel is being phased out is wrong. Fossil fuel usage around the world globally is dramatically increasing. It's just that we're not being allowed to access the global market. So instead, the Americans are increasing production dramatically, while at the same time our product, you're quite right, is landlocked. And in our lifetime, certainly in my lifetime, I'm 66-years-old -- we are not going to see fossil fuels phased out. We are a long ways from having renewable energy supply replace fossil fuels. That's the reality that we have to deal with.

CO: It seems though that the people who got elected last night -- 65 percent approximately of people who voted, voted for parties who have a climate change plan. Voted for parties that are offering plans for phasing out fossil fuels. So is that not consistent with where the rest of Canada wants to go which is toward a climate change plan?

JH: The Conservatives had the best plan. They just didn't explain it very well. We have tremendous success stories in the oil and gas sector that with we exported them, as Andrew Scheer was trying to explain to do, we could make a dramatic decrease in global emissions.

CO: Right. But you know there's several assessments of the Conservatives' climate change plan that conclude that the emissions under what Mr. Scheer was proposing would rise, not fall. So can you honestly say it was the best plan to fight climate change?

JH: Of course I can. Because what they looked at, what the so-called experts were looking at how much of our emissions in Canada would be reduced. And I'm saying that if we're going to be honest about the desire to try and reduce global emissions and recognizing that it's a global problem, not a Canadian problem, then the plan was to export technology to assist those countries that produce the vast amount of the pollution and the emissions. We can help them to improve their emissions.

CO: But Alberta should not reduce its emissions?

JH: I don't believe it's going to make any dramatic difference. All we're going to do is cripple our economy.

CO: Your idea is that because of that, you want the West to leave? Be an independent state in the middle of Canada. What's the vision that you're proposing?

JH: Well, we're a long ways from that. I would say step one is for premiers Kenny and Moe to develop a question that they can put to the people of Alberta and Saskatchewan in the form of a referendum and then see what happens. Because I can tell you, they are fed up right now.

CO: Is there no way of finding a middle ground whereby there is a bigger and better investment into western Canada to move the province out of the fossil fuel industry, which is what it seems that Canadians want to happen? Is there not a way to do this, to invest in Alberta that will satisfy the demands and the voting preferences of eastern Canada? Is there no way to solve this do you think?

JH: There was a way -- I just finished telling you that. People largely in Ontario and Quebec rejected it last night. There was a way to build a plan to help global climate change by addressing it where the emissions actually happen and they don't happen in any significant way in Canada.

CO: All right, Mr. Hill, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

JH: Thank you. Have a nice day.

ND: Jay Hill is a former member of parliament -- first for the Reform Party, and later for the Conservatives. We reached him near Edmonton. And for more on what Mr. Hill had to say about Western alienation you can go to: cbc.ca/aih. While Albertans like Mr. Hill want to see that Trans Mountain pipeline expansion get built, NDP leader Jagmeet Singh told reporters today he'll do everything in his power to stop it. Here's a question to Mr. Singh from a reporter.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Hi, Mr. Singh. Kevin Gallagher of CTV National News. You've been very clear in this campaign that you oppose the Trans Mountain pipeline and its expansion. Now in a minority parliament, what would you be willing to barter with or trade with in that sense -- would you be willing to soften your position on Trans Mountain if it meant national pharma-care?

JAGMEET SINGH: I'm not going to negotiate the results of a parliament right now or I'm not negotiate what we're going to fight for in media like this. But what I can tell you is that I have been opposed to Trans Mountain. I will be continued -- I will continue to be opposed to it. And I want real action on fighting the climate crisis. I'm going to fight for those things. And I'm ready to work with what Canadians have chosen to deliver on those commitments, to fight for some real action, some real concrete results.

REPORTER: But given the math, the Liberals and the Conservative support the Trans Mountain. So you're kind of shut out there. So what can you do in a parliament now with that project? What does it mean for Trans Mountain for you?

JAGMEET SINGH: Well, first off, Canadians have chosen that, right. The Canadians have made that choice. I respect their choice. I believe that we've got to fight Trans Mountain. So I'll continue to fight it. I'll raise my position and I'll raise the concerns. I'll raise the concerns of Canadians every time I get a chance to. I also want to make sure it's clear that we need real action on fighting the climate crisis. And young people depend on us and are demanding that we take action. And I'm going to fight for that. But Canadians have chosen the makeup of the parliament, and that is the makeup of the parliament that we have right now. And within that parliament, I'm going to do my job to fight for the things that Canadians want.

ND: That was NDP leader Jagmeet Singh speaking to reporters today in Burnaby, BC.

[Music]

Bellbird

ND: The male white bellbird may be small, but it packs a mighty roar.

SOUNDCLIP

[Male white bellbird sound]

ND: That is the sound of the male white bellbird which lives in the Amazon. Out in the wild, that song is louder than a jackhammer -- peaking at 125 decibels. And according to a new study that makes it the loudest bird in the world. So why on earth does it wait until it is face to face with a possible mate to shriek out that deafening sound? Scientists say it is a bizarre scene. When an interested female starts to cozy up to him, the male takes a deep breath, opens its beak, and...

SOUNDCLIP

[Male white bellbird sound]

ND: ...right in the female's face. It's like the bird equivalent of a guy walking up to you and screaming the pickup line, "Did it hurt when you fell from heaven?!" It probably leaves the female white bellbird wondering why he can't just relax and have a respectful conversation. If you want to know why, you can tune into CBC Radio's "Quirks and Quarks" this Saturday at noon to learn more about the white bellbird's ear-splitting song.

[Music]

Denmark lighthouse move

Guest: Thomas Lomholt

ND: For more than 100 years, the Rubjerg Knude Lighthouse, has stood near the coast in northern Denmark. But over the years it stood nearer and nearer to that coast because of erosion. To save the lighthouse, officials had to do something. And since they couldn't just put the coastline back, they had to move the 700-tonne lighthouse back. And today, they did just that. Thomas Lomholt is the project leader. He works with the local Hjorring Municipality. And we reached him at the lighthouse -- close to a Hjorring, Denmark.

CO: Thomas, how did it go today?

THOMAS LOMHOLT: It went fantastic. Everything went 100 percent as planned. So we were able to move the lighthouse 70 metres inland. It was located just a few metres from the edge of a tall sand dune cliffs 70 metres above sea level. And we moved it 70 metres inland. So now it's safe for the next generation.

CO: And were there moments when you stopped breathing, you held your breath, and just thought 'Oh, my gosh. I hope this works?'

TL: [Laughs] No, actually not. The first hour were very critical because we had to move the weight from the foundation to two lines of a kind of tracks on the outside of the lighthouse. And one of those tracks were very very close to the edge. So we have to move it about 10 metres before we were, you know, more safe. But the decision to move the lighthouse included that we were aware of the risk of the cliff collapsing. So if we didn't move the lighthouse now, we have to tear down the lighthouse in order to prevent it to fall down the cliff and be danger to people on the beach.

CO: There are a lot of people. The pictures I've seen, there is quite a crowd around watching this. What was the scene from your point of view?

TL: Yeah, I think it was fantastic. The area is very amazing. This very tall sand dune raising 70 metres above sea level with a lighthouse on top. So it's an area where tourists and locals travel to -- especially people from Germany -- come every year for 10, 15, 20, 30 years. And this is this site. So we knew when we did something spectacular, like moving the lighthouse, that there will be lots of spectators. And there were loads -- the local television stations have more visitors to their homepage than they ever have had before. New records [laughs] all day long.

CO: And you know just the pictures -- just seeing this giant structure moving along these tracks, I thought this is maybe what it looked like when they're moving the stones for the pyramids or those heads on Easter Island, that you're doing something that was almost from another time, you know? Because of the human effort that it took. Did it feel like that that you were doing something kind of superhuman?

TL: No. We have teamed up with some very competent and professional people who have tried to move lots of constructions before. They never tried to move a lighthouse before, but they were very very calm and they were very confident and the outcome would be positive. And we have hydraulics and machines to do the hard work. We just have to plan everything very very carefully. But then the professional people with their heavy equipment took over and yeah everything went exactly as planned. Actually it went a bit better than planned. We have figured out it would take between two and three hours longer than it actually took. So it went very well. The lighthouse moved with a speed of twelve metres per hour and we had predicted about eight metres per hour.

CO: And you moved it 70 metres inland, is that right?

TL: We moved it 70 metres -- yeah. Exactly.

CO: Is climate change a contributor and the reason why there have been so much erosion?

TL: It is an area with massive coastal erosion and it has always been like that since hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago. So that's nothing new in this area. There is massive coastal erosion at this spot where the lighthouse site is. The coastal erosion's average about two and a half metres every year. So the coastline moves backwards with a speed of 2 1/2 metres every year. And the dunes where the lighthouse is moving inland with a speed of 10 metres a year. So it's an extremely dynamic nature we have in this area.

CO: There many places in the world where coastlines are disappearing or changing because of, well, climate change or whatever. And do you think that the moving of structures is going to be something that we're going to have to do more often?

TL: Yeah. Possibly. The societies around the world have to think about which buildings and what infrastructure you want to save, that are important to the society, and what infrastructures that are not actually important enough to save. And then accept that nature takes a bit here and there.

CO: How much did it cost to move the lighthouse?

TL: Yeah, it cost five million Danish krones. That's very close to one million Canadian dollar.

CO: I know you've had quite a day, so we're going to let you go. And I appreciate speaking with you Thomas. Thank you.

TL: Yes. Thank you very much.

ND: Thomas Lomholt is part of a team that moved a lighthouse in Denmark today. We reached him at the lighthouse near Hjorring.

[Music]

Dateline: Guangxi, China

ND: Dateline: Guangxi, China.

[Music]

ND: In 2013, in Guangxi, a real estate guy was having some trouble: a rival was suing him and the real estate guy decided the only way to get his rival to knock it off was to knock him off. So he found a professional hitman and offered him 2-million yuan to take care of his problem. Well, maybe the hitman's daytimer was already full of murders because he decided he would farm it out. He found another hitman and offered him 1-million yuan to do the job instead. He would keep the rest. And before long, the real estate guy's rival would be pushing up daisies. The thing was, that second hitman didn't feel like committing that particular act of horticulture -- if you know what I mean. So he offered a third hitman a lesser sum of money to put the rival on ice. Then the third hitman offered a fourth hitman a lesser sum of money to bump the rival off. And then the fourth hitman offered a fifth hitman a relative pittance of 100,000 yuan to put the rival six feet under. Finally, the fifth guy meets the real estate guy's rival at a coffee shop and blows him away. And I don't mean he killed him. I mean he told the rival he didn't want to kill him, so he should fake his own death. Now, all five outsourcing assassins are going to prison. So is the real estate guy. And with him out of the way, it's the rival who's free to make a killing.

[Music]

Part 3: Green Party's 1st MP outside B.C. says flooding made climate change 'top issue' in her N.B. riding

Election: Fredericton Green

Guest: Jenica Atwin

ND: At a jam-packed brewery in Fredericton last night, Jenica Atwin couldn't wipe the smile off her face. Ms. Atwin clinched victory as the first Green MP to get elected east -- far east -- of British Columbia. And she'll also be the first woman to serve as the MP for Fredericton. Ms. Atwin will join leader Elizabeth May and Paul Manly in the Green ranks of the House of Commons. After an election where one of the top priorities was climate change, New Brunswick Premier Blaine Higgs said today he's listening. He just announced he'll be complying with the Liberals proposed carbon tax. We reached Jenica Atwin in Fredericton.

CO: Ms. Atwin congratulations.

JENICA ATWIN: Thank you so much.

CO: How does it feel to be the first elected Green MP east of British Columbia?

JA: It feels incredible, surreal. It's still kind of settling in for me and the team and my family. We're so proud of the work we put it and to see it kind of pay off in this way is just the best outcome we could have hoped for.

CO: So why do you think that happened? I mean, I know your province has seen the flooding, the effects of what's believed to be climate change, homes under water as the St. John River overflowed. So do you think that that influenced people at the ballot box?

JA: I do. You know, it was very clear from the beginning of this campaign just how much climate change was on the minds of voters. Almost every single door we knocked on that was a top issue for them, especially those who lived along St. John River. But also, it's the hard work of our provincial Greens. So David Coon is the New Brunswick Green leader. Our other two MLAs were just incredible as well. The success of the PEI Greens. So all of this kind of led to, I think, this breakthrough moment for us. But we also ran an excellent campaign where we really communicated with voters, we were very visible, very present, and took every opportunity that we could to really talk about our perspective and relating to them and listening. And people appreciated that.

CO: Just want to play -- there's a clip of someone who did vote for you. It was first played on The National -- CBC's The National. And it was interviewing undecided voters. One of them was Marcus Harvey, whose number one concern was the environment. I want to play a clip of what he told Conservative leader Andrew Scheer in that segment. So here is Marcus Harvey.

SOUNDCLIP

MARCUS HARVEY: For the first 40 years of my life, we've had four floods. In the last 10, we've had seven. If the water goes over the road next year, it'll before four in four. So I'm one of those climate stress people. And on top of this, certain world leaders that are kind of just sitting on their hands and doing nothing. Here in Canada, we have Prime Minister Trudeau who decide to bring a carbon tax in, which for somebody who is middle class like me is hitting my bottom line pretty hard.

CO: All right. That is Marcus Harvey. And he lives in Maugerville -- which is along the river you just were describing. So he was considering casting a ballot for the Conservatives. That's how he politically leans. But then he ended up supporting you. What does that say about the support you had?

JA: It speaks volumes. We had support from across the political spectrum. We were consistently surprised along the way with who was coming out to endorse us. And it was so validating again. And it was also very uniting. I think that's the biggest takeaway for me from the results last night and this journey that we've been on -- it is just how much more we have in common than what divides us. And that's really what I want to focus on. And so Marcus, I think, really appreciated that I took the time to go to his front porch and listen to him. And even more so that I brought my leader there. Elizabeth and I sat on Marcus Harvey's front porch and talked about, you know Maugerville specific issues. And so he was pleasantly surprised, I think, with you know my viewpoint on a lot of the other key issues that I spoke a lot about my focus on mental health here in the riding. And then that's something that spoke to him. And this being a local kind of hometown girl who really is in touch with the people, that's what he voted for last night.

CO: Meanwhile, another development today in New Brunswick. The Premier of the province, Blaine Higgs, said that he is now looking at crafting a maid in New Brunswick price on carbon, complying with the Trudeau climate plan. How big a change of heart is that?

JA: That's a huge change of heart. I'm so glad to hear him say that. It's part of why the carbon tax has been hitting us so hard here in New Brunswick because we didn't take up the opportunity to make a New Brunswick approach. And we certainly do need a better formula here because that's another issue that came up time and time again -- and people in New Brunswick do not like that carbon tax.

CO: Wasn't it just last summer that Premier Higgs was doing what Doug Ford was doing in Ontario and giving out anti-carbon tax stickers to gas stations?

JA: I mean I ran provincially as well in 2018 and it was a huge part of their campaign. Many of their signage around the riding that I was in was strictly about the carbon tax as an issue. I don't appreciate that kind of provincial-federal disconnect. And I don't think that's very productive. And so I'm very happy to see that we're now willing to work together to find a better solution.

CO: But we do know that Elizabeth May was hoping to elect more MPs with the Green Party. Why do you think that only three MPs have been elected to the Greens?

JA: Well, I mean, I was a little surprised that there weren't more. We were kind of expecting, you know, more like 6 to 10. You know there were many ridings that we had a great showing and a close second in some places. And all candidates should be very proud of the work that they put in. And it's really a team effort. We've been encouraging each other along the way. And I don't think that all the other parties are so far off on the climate issues. I was very pleasantly surprised to find that in most of our public debate we were -- each of us -- kind of fighting over whose plan was better. So I'm extremely hopeful that we're going to move forward on the climate issue and in an all-party format and to really represent those different perspectives that are within the mix and help us all find the best foot forward.

CO: But given that you didn't reach the objectives and what the party hoped for, do you think it is time to question Elizabeth May as the leader? Do you think that a fresh face for the Green Party of Canada might change things?

JA: You know, I have so much faith in Elizabeth and her leadership and she's been so inspirational for me personally along this journey. I look forward so much to learning from her and taking direction from her as my leader. I think we're in good hands. And I'm not sure really what to attribute you only being three rather than kind of the bigger wave that we are hoping for. I think at the end, people really did buy into some of that strategic voting conversation that was really dominating the last few weeks. So I think that really had more to play than anything else.

CO: What role do you think that you'll be playing -- the Green Party -- will play in a Liberal minority government?

JA: Well, we're going to be holding them accountable on these big issues and helping us really move forward of all these promises that have been made. And we're not starting from scratch. I think that's a great thing too. It's a strength that we can build on what we've seen from the last four years. We can fix and we can improve some of the things that fell short and we can really focus on better governance. So many people across Canada were very disillusioned, many people were questioning whether or not they wanted to vote at all. So we need to restore faith in the democratic system and in our role as representatives for our constituents. And if we focus on that, I think that we're going to be able to get a lot done.

CO: All right. We'll be watching you in Ottawa. Ms. Atwin thank you.

JA: Thank you so much.

ND: Jenica Atwin is Fredericton's newly-elected Green MP. We reached her in Fredericton. And for more on the story, you can go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Limbo

ND: The clock is ticking on Boris Johnson's down-to-the-wire Brexit deal. Officially, the UK is still scheduled to leave the EU on October 31st. And the government is desperately trying to rush through a new deal with Europe through Parliament. Today, the Prime Minister's bill passed second reading, but then it faltered. MPs rejected another motion that would have accelerated the bill through its next steps, saying they need more time to digest it. That led to a curious series of exchanges this afternoon that would seem more appropriate in a first year theology seminar at Oxford. The Speaker, John Bercow, declared the Brexit bill "in limbo." And then the fun began. Here's that edited series of exchanges in which you'll hear the Speaker, the Leader of the House of Commons, Jacob Rees-Mogg, and various other MPs weighing in on the precise definition of "limbo.".

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Just in case there is any doubt, the technical term for the status of the bill at present is that the bill is in limbo. That is the technical term advised to me by the clerks, and that I think pretty well completes the picture.

VOICE 2: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I [inaudible] that the bill is in limbo because I think theologically speaking, it was reported that Pope Benedict the 16th abolished limbo. So I do wonder whether the bill is not in the heaven that is having been passed or the hell of having failed, but is in purgatory where it is suffering the pains of those in purgatory. The key thing to remember about limbo, Mr. Speaker, is to enter limbo, you cannot still be alive. And therefore the bill is no longer a live bill.

VOICE 1: Yes, oh we are wallowing in the realms of metaphysical abstraction as Burke would have said and almost certainly did, albeit not in relation to this bill.

VOICE 3: Mr. Speaker, I had not intended to seek to intervene on this exchange, but I am so offended by the remarks of the honorable member who spoke a few moments ago that I feel inclined to do so. It is not the truth. It is, in fact, something which we are only allowed to call a terminal logical in exactitude. In other words, it is absolute rubbish to suggest the people who voted against this programme motion only did so in order to delay Brexit or because they are opposed to Brexit. And finally, on the question of limbo. I rather thought you had to be pure of soul to get into it. So not many people are going to end up there.

[Laughter]

VOICE 2: Mr. Speaker, I think the original understanding of limbo, one that is no longer widely accepted, is that it was placed for the souls of the unbaptized and for those who died before salvation was brought to us at the point of the resurrection.

VOICE 4: I hate to be a pedant, but my recollection is that the souls of the upright and pure who preceded salvation actually ended up in Dante's first circle. The events of this evening proved to us all that actually we are all much further down in hell already.

ND: That's some edited tape from the British House of Commons today in which debate over the Brexit bill veered into a theological discussion of the afterlife.

[Music]

Chile protests

Guest: Nelson Quiros

ND: Chilean President Sebastian Pinera says his country is at war. But the foe isn't some foreign enemy -- it's his own citizens. They're mostly young people who have taken to the streets by the thousands in recent days. The eruption of anger started over a small hike in transit fares, but has expanded into rage about economic inequality, electricity prices, and a strained health care system. So far, more than 15 people have died, protesters have torched buildings and subway stations, and 10,000 troops have been sent out on the streets. Nelson Quiros is a student who's been taking part in the protests. We reached him in Santiago, Chile.

CO: Nelson, can you describe for us what is happening on the streets of Santiago today?

NELSON QUIROS: Well, today, I think the Chilean people got tired of the abuse of the political class that has only take care of governing for them, and not for Chilean people. They have robbed us the health, the education, the pensions, and the dignity of the people. So the people get tired of this. And for days now the streets are full of Chileans asking for their rights, asking for what they think is good for their life, and demand a decent life. That is what happened in Chile today.

CO: It's been very tense, right. 15 people is the death toll at this point. So describe --because you've got the army trucks there, you've got helicopters -- what's the scene that you witnessed on the streets today?

NQ: Well I see a lot of violence, a lot of hit with sticks and weapons, bullets, gas that have the people intoxicated in the street. Yesterday I was aimed at with a gun directly to my camera because I was in the street taking pictures because I am a student of journalism. And I take my camera out to the street to take pictures of what happened. And they...

CO: They pointed a gun at you...

NQ: Pointed a gun at me -- exactly. Directed to me -- to my camera. They threw gas to me -- directly to me. They hit me. They hit my friends. They hit people there in the street. That is what I see with my own eyes.

CO: This began -- first of all, there was an increase in subway fares and public transportation costs. So why would that small fare increase of 4 percent -- why did that spark this kind of a clash?

NQ: I think that the subway thing that was the tip of the iceberg. Because that was the thing that made this blow. I think because the people got tired -- that this was the thing that blows everything -- the people they want no more. They want no more abuse because I think that the political class the only thing in them knowing us the people. So this is some additions that a lot of things, education, poor education, poor health care, poor pension. We students -- we've been for a lot of years fighting in the streets for good education but the government don't hear us. And this is not a Sebastian Pinera thing. Because this is an addition of a lot of government, a lot of precedent than being in Chile, that they know they don't look or seek for an answer or solutions for the people. So this subway thing was the only thing that blows everything. And now this is a crisis. We are living a crisis.

CO: And you mentioned the government of Sebastian Pinera. They've already said that they've scrapped this transit fare increase. They're not going to do it. But the protests are not going to end. Is that right?

NQ: Yes. The protest are not going to end because we are fighting for the subway thing no more. We are fighting for everything that's happened in Chile.

CO: What has to change? What will the government have to do before you will stop -- before you'll get out of the streets and stop your protests?

NQ: The first thing is listen to people. What people are asking for....is their dignity, a better way to live. Secondly, make change in the political way to see the Chilean people and the economic way to see how this country works because I think capitalism in Chile -- works no more because we are living in inequality, deep inequality, in country. The rich are richer. The poor are poorest. So I think that is what has to happen. And actually the ministers have to quit -- that is another big thing that has to happen because I think the president has to quit too.

CO: The clashes have been violent, right? I mean there has been arson. There's been looting. There's been burning. And the police are now saying they have to stop that. So do you think that the violence has to stop? Do you think you'll lose support if the protests are so violent?

NQ: Well I think violence now was the way that people found to be heard -- to say what they think that it's not working. But I am not a violent person. I think we can be heard but if people think that violence is their way I am no one to say that it's wrong. And I think more violence is from the government than the people in the streets.

CO: All right Nelson, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

NQ: Yes. Thank you.

ND: We reached Nelson Quiros in Santiago, Chile.

[Music]

Kevin Wilson Junior

ND: Emmett Till was only 14 when he was dragged from his bed, tortured and killed -- his body thrown in a river. His murder, some 65 years ago, galvanized the civil rights movement. But his indignities have continued even after his death as multiple memorials to the black teen have been vandalized and shot. Now a fourth sign has been erected and protected. It's a sturdy 226 kilos -- that's 500 pounds. It's made of steel and it's covered with bulletproof glass. Back in 2018, As It Happens, spoke with Kevin Wilson Junior. He's a film maker who alerted authorities to past vandalism at the site. Here's part of his conversation with guest host Matt Galloway from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

KWJ: This site marks the location where Emmett Till's body was found floating in the Tallahatchie River. In 1955, J.W. Milam and Roy Bryant abducted Emmett Till from his uncle's home in the middle of the night. They tortured him all night, shot him, and then dumped him in the river. There was someone fishing at this location when Emmett Till's body washed ashore. So this sign signifies the exact location where his body was found. So it's a really sacred place because, as folks know, and others should know, Emmett Till's murder, and the subsequent acquittal of J.W. Milam and Roy Bryant galvanized the American civil rights movement. So this sign and others in the area are very critical to the conversation about freedom, equality, justice, and American history.

MG: Why do people keep shooting at this sign?

KWJ: You know I can only speculate why it's happening. I think that there’s still attitude there in Mississippi — and then, of course, across this country — toward African-Americans, and toward minorities, and people of colour. You know that exist. You know that existed hundreds of years ago, and, of course, during that time when Emmett Till was murdered. You know it's going to be hard to get past this. I think we may end up seeing a lot more of it. And what I do hope is that as a release this time in particular, there's some type of security measure taken there — video cameras or something. You know I hope the federal government gets involved. I hope it becomes a federal historic site, so that it's a federal crime to vandalize this site. It has to change. It absolutely cannot continue to happen. It's more than just a bullet hole and someone shooting up a sign. They're really making a loud statement about how they feel about African-Americans, and it’s speaking loudly. So we have to take measures to ensure that can't continue to happen.

ND: From our archives, that's filmmaker Kevin Wilson Junior speaking with As It Happens guest host Matt Galloway back in August 2018.

[Music]

Rocking investment

ND: Darren Julien, the president of Julien's Auctions, believes rich people have found an exciting new place to invest their money. In an interview, he told AFP, quote, "I've always said that the rock and roll market is the new fine art market. Hedge funds even are starting to invest in rock and roll artifacts as a way to diversify their clients’ portfolios." It seems millennial investors prefer gritty, authentic artifacts. And in the true spirit of rock and roll, they want to pay tons of money for these artifacts and then store them in safes in their pied-a-terres. Okay, I might be being harsh, but there's definitely something ridiculous about one of the items currently on offer at Julien's Auctions. A ratty cardigan with a disgusting stain on the right pocket. The one Kurt Cobain wore for years, including onstage when Nirvana recorded the album "Unplugged in New York." The owner of a professional race car team bought it in 2015 for nearly a 180,000 dollars Canadian. And Garrett Kletjian told Rolling Stone magazine it meant a lot to him. But that it also came with a sense of great responsibility. He said, quote, "I hope that it's going to go to somebody who won't just see it as an investment -- that they'll get some joy out of it too." It is nice to imagine that it will be part of someone's life rather than part of a diversified portfolio, because the buyer should appreciate that dirty cardigan instead of hoping it will appreciate.

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October 22, 2019 Episode Transcript

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