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The AIH Transcript for October 09, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: Independence day. Deserted by their U.S. allies, Kurds in Syria are immediately targeted by a Turkish military operation — and a spokesperson with the Kurdish PYD party says they now have only themselves to rely on.

CH: Resisting the siren song. Towns and cities across Canada have declared a "state of climate emergency" — but some councillors in Calgary insist they've got everything under control.

CO: Abandon hope all ye who enter here, here, or here. Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer says he'll target asylum seekers who enter at unofficial border crossings.

CH: The hard stuff that dreams are made of. After years of work, our guest is overjoyed about the new distillery named in honour of an enslaved man called "Nearest Green" — who taught Jack Daniels how to make whiskey.

CO: Axes not to grind. Or bump, or scratch. Basically, students in Anchorage, Alaska will have to be gentle with the fancy guitars donated to their school board — because our guest says they're the equivalent of Cadillacs.

CH: And...firsthand knowledge of the second Handmaid book. Carol sat down onstage to talk about "The Testaments" with Margaret Atwood herself — who's an encyclopedia on the subject of Aunt Lydia.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that guess she's made an Offred you can't refuse.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Turkey/Syria border, Conservative immigration, Alaska guitars

Turkey/Syria border

Guest: Salih Muslim

CH: Turkey's President calls it "Operation Peace Spring." But Kurds in Syria wouldn't describe today's military offensive as "peace". Turkey launched widespread airstrikes today along their border with Syria — just days after U.S. President Donald Trump announced he would be pulling American troops from the region, abandoning Kurdish forces in the process. The Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces helped the U.S. defeat ISIS in Syria. But Turkey views these forces as terrorist targets -- and vows to defeat them. Salih Muslim is a spokeperson for PYD, a Kurdish political party in northern Syria. We reached him earlier today in Qamishli, a town on the Turkish-Syrian border.

CO: Mr. Muslim, just how aggressive is this military operation from Turkey?

SALIH MUSLIM: Well, suddenly, they started to shell over all the border. We are talking about maybe more than 400 kilometres around the cities and the villages. We don't know how much casualties we have as all the villages, most of them, they were shelled. We are hearing that some people — civilians — were killed, and some of them were injuries. I mean we have to check and confirm the casualties of the shelling.

CO: But the shelling is intense, is it?

SM: Yes, shelling from the cannons, and also the aeroplanes. I mean the planes were bombarding some villages. So it is continuing till now. There is some retaliation by Democratic Syrian Forces on their positions also, but the result is not clear yet.

CO: How many civilians are in those areas that are being bombarded?

SM: Well, I don't know because it’s villages and cities, and so, Qamishli, we have big cities — maybe more than 2 million people are around this area.

CO: Was there any time for anyone to evacuate — or any place to evacuate to — before this this operation began?

SM: Not really. Maybe you come out say so. Because most of them, they don't like to leave their homes and their villages because they know the Turkish practice before. It means if they just move, it means that Turkey will bring their mercenaries and locate instead of them in their villages. So because of that, they are insisting to stay in their villages and to defend themselves to resist.

CO: Were you at all prepared? Were the Kurds and the people in the region at all prepared for this announcement from Donald Trump to withdraw these forces — U.S. special forces — that were working with you, were partnering with you in the defence and in the in the war. Did you see it coming at all?

SM: Well, the people are not satisfied I mean what happened. But the withdrawal of the Americans, there were some observation points which was established by the agreement between Turkey and the Americans and maybe a few weeks ago. So they're withdrawn from this observation point. But the rest I mean the American soldiers they are still in their bases.

CO: But you no longer have the U.S. forces with you — with the Kurds — so they've retreated. They're still in the region, but not going to offer any assistance. How do you regard that? Some people called it a betrayal.

SM: We don't say betrayal because they're fighting. Maybe they don't want to just open the area for Turkish side to invade that's all. It's a kind of agreement between them.

CO: Now, President Donald Trump says that the United States does not endorse this operation on the part of Turkey, and he said — this is a quote from Donald Trump — that this operation is a bad idea. Is that helpful to you at all?

SM: Well, it doesn't mean anything for us because I mean they are shelling, they are invading. I mean, this should be stopped. I think in any way by Americans or, otherwise, we have no choice. We have to resist. But as I know, maybe today, there was a recall for debate in the Security Council by the French and by UK and other countries. I hope maybe they can stop it.

CO: But now that the Syrian Democratic Forces no longer have the United States as a military partner, is it possible that they will turn to Syria — to the regime of Bashar al-Assad — and find an alliance with his forces?

SM: Well, if Syrian regime accepts all democratic rights, why not? We tried, but they didn't do it. And now there was a call by Mr. Lavrov, I mean he is trying to mediate.

CO: The Russians, yeah.

SM: Yeah. So if he succeeds to do it, it’s good I mean. But, of course, the Syrian regime should accept our democratic rights. Maybe it could even be changed.

CO: But what evidence do you have that that's even possible? That he hasn't recognized the democratic rights of the people. The whole war it came about because of people wanting to protest against the government and exercise democratic rights. Why would you think you could get that recognition from a man who has waged war against his own people?

SM: No, no, we’re not expecting to change so easily. We are not going to make any deal without accepted that democracy in Syria.

CO: So he has to change his stripes, and then he would consider being an ally of his?

SM: Of course, of course, I mean a dialogue should be a change, an agreement, a new Constitution, new rules in Syria. So this is a longer approach, I mean.

CO: So who did the Kurds trust at this point?

SM: Well, they trust themselves [laughing.] Even the United States and others, they were partners because of the benefit and their interest. We never asked the United States to defend us or hold the weapon instead of us, no. I mean we are forced to defend ourselves against ISIS, Still I mean Daesh is not finished. If they want to continue, we are ready to continue.

CO: Daesh being ISIS. Mr. Muslim, we will leave it there. And I appreciate you speaking with us.

SM: Okay. Thank you very much.

CO: Goodnight. Goodnight. Bye.

CH: Salih Muslim is a spokesperson for the PYD, or the Democratic Union Party, a Kurdish political party in northern Syria. We reached him earlier in the border town of Qamishli, Syria. Today, Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland said, quote, "Canada firmly condemns Turkey's military incursion into Syria today." Unquote. We've got more on this story on our website at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Conservative immigration

Guest: Mireille Paquet

CH: Andrew Scheer was at Roxham Road today. That's the irregular border crossing between the US and Quebec. The Conservative leader was there to call attention to his party's plan to close what they call a "loophole" in the safe third country agreement between Canada and United States.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: The rules have to be followed, and the laws have to be enforced. As prime minister, that's exactly what I will do. As I said, we'll close the loophole in the Safe Third Country agreement. We'll also hire 250 additional officers at the Canada's services at the Canada Border Services Agency. This represents a 25 per cent increase in our inland enforcement operation, which will strengthen law enforcement at the border. And we will deploy more judges of the Immigration and Refugee Board to the hot spots of illegal border crossers, so claims can be processed faster.

CH: That was Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer. Mireille Paquet is Concordia University's Research Chair on the New Politics of Immigration. We reached her in Montreal.

CO: Professor Paquet, Andrew Scheer says today that he promises to stop what he calls illegal border crossings, or what the government calls irregular crossings that people use to get around Canada's safe third country agreement with the United States. What is he talking about?

MIREILLE PAQUET: He said he would stop what he calls the loophole in the Safe Third Country Agreement, and that is really exactly what you just described. The fact that if people cross outside of a regular point of entry — a regular port of entry — people can then claim asylum in Canada. And I think it's important to say again that it's not because you claim asylum that you are going to be granted refugee status. This only provides you with a chance to get a hearing potentially, and to have your story heard by a Canadian Immigration Refugee Board.

CO: There's what conservative say — and what Maxime Bernier says — is that this is a form of queue-jumping. And that that Mr. Scheer saying that his priority would be for refugees who really are fleeing some kind of persecution, and that these people who come over the border in this way are jumping the queue. Are they queue-jumpers?

MP: There’s two things in what you just said, right? The first is the idea of queue jumping. And it's been pretty apparent that this people aren't jumping a queue, they're entering a different queue. And so they're not taking the support of other people that are claiming refugee status through different means. Be it true regular processes in Canada or abroad. It does, however, increase the pressure on the determination system — the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada — which is now incurring several delays in giving decisions. That's one of the things. But I think the other thing that's important to deconstruct about what's being talked about today is that this idea that the people that cross the border do not have necessarily a legitimate claim to get into Canada or to receive protection. We actually do not know that. And Andrew Scheer actually does not know that. This is the job of this specialized decision-maker at the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada to hear everybody's story individually and to make a decision based on the material that is provided to them.

CO: And that's the system they go through. They go through that that that process of looking at their application and their case. When we talk about the refugees coming from elsewhere, like the Syrians who came and others who've come from Afghanistan, those are resettlement programs, aren't they? That we run through the United Nations. They don't replace those who are coming across the border.

MP: They do not, they do not at all. But all these people, be them people that apply within Canada, people that come through the border and then apply, or people that are resettled with the help of UNHCR or other organizations. All of these people first have to go through a determination process. It varies from situation to situation. But their story is assessed to see whether they fit convention's criteria to guest status. And there's a lot of discretion in Canada's capacity to make decisions about that. So it's not because these people arrive in Canada that they are going to be granted a right to stay permanently. And I think it's important to once again say that.

CO: Let’s just hear from the Liberal Leader, Justin Trudeau, who said this about Andrew Scheer’s trip to Roxham Road today.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I'm pleased that people will be seeing the infrastructure that we've built at Roxham Road to ensure that every single person who crosses our border — whether it is regularly or irregularly — gets fully processed by our immigration system. They get full security screenings. They get placed into our immigration system, and go through every step of our immigration process. There are no shortcuts.

CO: Justin Trudeau seems proud of his government's handling of the irregular border crossings. But under his government, there have continued to be long delays in considering refugee and asylum applications. Why is that the case?

MP: So it takes months and years to address or to make a status determination, for one, because we need more staff at the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. And that these decision-makers have to be hired, but they also have to be trained. This was something that the current government said they were going to do, and have started doing. But clearly, we need more of this staff. And this would go a long way I think to increase fairness. But I think it's also important to note that the refugee determination process as research has shown is a very complex matter because decision makers have to listen to individual stories. And they are faced with a varying degree of proof, and they need to make a decision to the best interests of everyone with limited information.

CO: I just want to play, finally, Jagmeet Singh, who has his own plans for the Safe Third Country Agreement. This is what the NDP leader said today.

SOUNDCLIP

JAGMEET SINGH: I would suspend the agreement. By suspending the agreement, people would not need to cross irregularly. These are people that are fleeing death. They're fleeing persecution. And in the States, they're fleeing the fact that Mr. Trump has been putting kids in cages; has been stripping babies out of the arms of their mothers. Of course they're afraid, and they're fleeing what they know is a scary situation in the States. And so right now, they have no other recourse but to cross irregularly.

CO: That's Jagmeet Singh of the NDP. And Elizabeth May of the Greens also said that the United States should no longer be considered a safe third country for refugees. But how do you think Donald Trump would respond to Canada unilaterally scrapping that Safe Third Country Agreement?

MP: Well, I mean I think nobody's able to know what Trump will react to at any moment right now [laugh]. But having said that, I think that it's a question that is hard for me to answer because the policy of the current president of the United States is very indisputable towards refugees. They've cut their resettlement program just last week, and they've also announced they've also implemented several policies that are very hostile and severe towards newcomers. So I don't know if the mechanism of shaming the United States — which is really what cancelling the agreement would be about — would really have any impact on the current president.

CO: Professor Paquet, we will leave it there. Thank you.

MP: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

CH: Mireille Paquet is Concordia University's Research Chair on the New Politics of Immigration. We reached her in Montreal.

[Music: Piano]

Port Moody meeting

CH: Earlier this year, the mayor of Port Moody, British Columbia — Rob Vagramov — took a voluntary leave of absence after he was charged with sexual assault. He denies the allegations. And last month, he decided to return to work -- despite the fact that the legal issue is not yet resolved. Yesterday, Port Moody councillors passed a motion asking the mayor to take another leave while the case works its way through the courts. Here's councillor Zoe Royer talking about why she voted for Mayor Vagramov to step aside for now.

SOUNDCLIP

ZOR ROYER: If it were me, I would not be here if I was the cause of something so divisive. Because this is not the picture of a community of wellness. It is not. This is not a healthy community picture. And we shouldn't be politicizing this matter. We shouldn't have to. This is about good governance, and taking the people out of it. Robert and the person that laid the accusation, I don't know what happened. And it's not for us to decide. And there are sides, there are camps, and some people are polarizing those camps with political mandates. And it's crazy. And it is so important that at this time Robert continue his leave. And then when it is resolved, and I pray that it is resolved in a positive way and he returns and resumes his role, and I can tell you that no political agenda is of such a priority. No thing is under siege or under such great threat in this city that he needs to be back today. If it's a matter of weeks, then it's weeks.

CH: That was Councillor Zoe Royer speaking in Port Moody, BC last night. The city council voted four to three to ask the Mayor to take another leave of absence — but there is no mechanism for them to force the issue. As we went to air, the mayor had said he's "taking council's input into consideration."

[Music: Ambient]

Alaska guitars

Guest: Keil Schweizer

CH: When you teach a kid to drive, you usually don't put them behind the wheel of a Lamborghini. If you're smart, you'd put that teenager in a used Honda Civic — at best. Well, high school students in Anchorage, Alaska are now being handed the musical equivalent of a luxury sports car: handmade Paul Reed Smith guitars — better known as PRSes. Why are beginner students getting to noodle chords on instruments worth thousands of dollars? Keil Schweizer can probably explain. He's the guitar teacher for those students, and he's in Anchorage, Alaska.

CO: Keil, just first of all, let's get a picture if we can on the radio of what these instruments look like. So in a word, how would you describe these guitars?

KIEL SCHWEIZER: In a word, I would say they're pretty [laughs]. They're gorgeous! The first thing that the viewer is going to see is just these are just beautiful guitars, and they're also different. When we all stood up there on stage, and one of them is blue, and one or this is red, and the kind of flamed maple top on all the finishes was pretty stunning to see all of them together.

CO: What was your reaction when you opened the boxes and you found that these guitars were inside?

KS: I think that it was the look. When I opened the box I knew, it's going to be a PRS guitar, and I knew what the general shape of PRS guitars looked like. But the ones I'm really familiar with are kind of the lower-end Chinese model of guitar. And so these ones, the first thing when you want to pick up any you hold it, you see the shape of it. It's just carved out in a way that is far more difficult to do. And I mean there's just a lot more handwork in these custom PRS American made.

CO: So your school district has ten of these. How did these luxury instruments come to be in your possession?

KS: [laughing] The Fish and Wildlife caught somebody trying to smuggle them into I think Hong Kong. They nabbed them and confiscated them because every one of these guitars, it's written right on the back of the headstock “custom-built for USA only”. And that's because about 30 years ago, they disallowed any Brazilian rosewood from being kind of harvested and built into guitars because it was just destroying the rainforest. Well, PRS has had a bunch of this Brazilian rosewood on the shelves, and they just kind of let it sit there for 30 years — and finally made a bunch of instruments out of it. I think they made was it 500 instruments out of it? And most of the guitars that we have, the head of Rosewood on it is actually very small — confined to this sort of 8-inch thick piece of wood called the fretboard, which just sits on top of the neck.

CO: But I guess it’s enough for the Fish and Wildlife Department to say these are illegal. And anyone who is shipping them probably knew that, right?

KS: Oh yes. It's written right on the guitar. I'm looking at right now. It says “custom-built for USA only”. So somebody spent you know 50 grand on these guitars, thought they could take them to another country and sell them at a profit basically.

CO: Okay, so your school district got the guitars, and so what did the students think of them?

KS: The students loved it. I mean there was ten guitars, and the school district decided that instead of giving them all to me, which is what they should have done, they actually gave one to every high school that we have. All of these high schools have a jazz band. And typically in that jazz band, they have a kid who is a guitarist. And that kid who is in the jazz band class is typically at a pretty higher level. I'm a little unique in that I have an entire guitar and ukulele program. And it was kind of funny when they were giving these all away. They kind of pulled a name out of a hat, and gave one to one of the band teachers. And then they said oh, that's not fair. Let's do another one. And they kept coming from backstage with all these beautiful guitars. And all the band teachers ended up with one of them. I was sitting at the audience and the superintendent looked at me, and says we know there's one guy going crazy out there, and we saved the best for last. [CO and KS laugh] So they gave me one of the more expensive guitars. But my classes have you know 20-30 kids in them. And so this one guitar passed around the room is not really feasible. So if I’m being honest, if I was allowed to, I would sell it mine and buy 20 electric guitars that were much cheaper [chuckles].

CO: Oh really?! [chuckles]

KS: So that all my kids could play. Yeah, but I'm unique. I think it really has worked out well with the band kids, like I said. That one kid in jazz band is loving the heck out of this guitar.

CO: Does it make any difference though? Do you think that he would sound just the same on another guitar that’s not so valuable?

KS: You know, there is three things that are kind of at stake when you buy a high end guitar. The first thing is the aesthetics. These guitars are really great from the audience perspective because they're beautiful. The second thing would be how well they are playable. And, of course, the third category is really the hardware in the wood that goes into these does produce a really nice sound. Do you want to hear a sample of the difference?

CO: I do, yes. Over the phone we’ll lose a lot of the quality. But can you play a bit. Can we hear what it sounds like.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A very glassy guitar]

KS: It has a nice long sustain on it when you play. [Sound: A guitar note] See that long not which is kind of what Carlos Santana played a lot of times. The thing is most of the sound of these electric guitars is actually coming from the amplifier. So I can take that same guitar, right? I haven't changed anything on the guitar, but now kind of like.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A very glassy guitar]

KS: So we change the tone massively with the amplifier. The actual sound of the guitar is pretty secondary.

CO: You know what? We lose it all over this phone line, so it's too bad we can't get a better sense of it. But anyway, I'm really happy that you guys have the guitars, and that the kids are getting a chance to use them.

KS: Yeah, yeah, it's been fun.

CO: All right, Keil, we're gonna let you go, but you’ve also giving us an excuse to play some really good guitar music, which is what we're going to do.

KS: [laughs] Okay, thank you so much. Thank you so much.

CO: Thanks, Kiel. Bye.

KS: Bye-bye.

CH: Keil Schweizer is the guitar and ukulele teacher for the Anchorage School District, in Anchorage, Alaska.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Part two: Calgary councillor: climate emergency, Tennessee whiskey company

Calgary councillor: climate emergency

Guest: Ward Sutherland

CH: Desperate times call for desperate measures, which is why a growing number of Canadian municipalities have opted to call climate change an "emergency". In the last few weeks, the Alberta communities of Canmore and Edmonton have joined the ranks of dozens of other cities nation-wide in declaring emergencies at the local level. But there are those who feel these historic announcements are actually more histrionic. Including a number of city councillors in nearby Calgary, who've made it clear that they have no intention of following suit. Ward Sutherland is the councillor for Calgary's Ward One.

CO: Councillor Sutherland, will Calgary join others, and declare a climate emergency?

WARD SUTHERLAND: As it stands right now, most of the colleagues that I've talked to, we will be not doing that.

CO: Why not?

WS: Well, two things is we think it's really important to highlight what we do as a city. We've had very strict environmental policy and climate change action plan as a city for the last 15 years, which involves everything that we do as we supply as a city, from buildings, to consumption of waste, etc. So you know, we feel we're contributing, and we're in the right direction as a city. And secondly, as an economy in Alberta — and one of the things we're trying to challenge — is the misinformation about our oil and gas industry — because it really is the most environmentally responsible oil and gas industry in the world. I find it quite you know, to be honest, quite naive that people think we can transition from no oil base within such a short period of time. We’re for a transition in in a responsible way over a period of time to work together.

CO: Do you really think that that's what the message is? If you declare an emergency — a climate change emergency — that that’s saying that we must immediately move away from an oil-based economy? Do you think that's what's being said?

WS: I think that's a municipality, not sure why we declaring it. We need to look inward. And what people should be asking — and citizens should be asking — is what are you doing as a city to participate in this? And what are you doing as a change in terms of climate change? That should be the real question. So, for example, is we could declare it, and have no climate change policy or action plan. It’s kind of hypocritical.

CO: Sorry, what are your targets?

WS: We're not setting targets, per say, as we’re setting everything that we do has to reduce the consumption, the use of CO2. So, for example, is our LRT is wind power. We just invested in a compost facility that takes all our compost, converts it into a natural fertilizer that goes to the farmers. It's difficult to measure it of the CO2 emissions from the cities, but it isn't difficult to look at each individual project and how we address it how to reduce our impact.

CO: How can you say that you have a robust climate mitigation plan that you're active in this and you don't even have targets for how much you want to reduce the amount of gases or where you want to be as to where the maximum temperature should be? How can you have no targets at all and say that you're actually active on this file?

WS: Well, you know targets are hypothetical. What people think they should get at and whether they're going to achieve them or not are two different things. I mean, people are coming up with targets with not realistically looking at what's available in technology, or the size of city, or the financial capacity to do so.

CO: You're in the middle of a snowstorm, right? Right now?

WS: Well, it's not a snow storm right now. But it just snowed, yes.

CO: Right. So you have some extreme weather — as we all are having. We're having what we call once in a century events all the time. You saw that flooding in Calgary in 2013. You saw the wildfires. Do you think that's why people in different municipalities like Canmore, Edmonton, or dozens of them across the country are putting in climate change emergency plans because they're seeing what's happening?

WS: Well, we've had floods before. That's history. To the severity, yes, and we're putting in flood mitigation. We're changing the process of upstream mitigation. And we're addressing those issues as we go along. But do we have to be responsible? Yes, we are. Are we taking action, and have a plan, and do we change how we do everything in the city? Yes, we are.

CO: Do you think climate change is an urgent cause, an urgent need? Do you think it's an emergency in any level?

WS: I would say depending on what order of government you are. And actually, to be honest, what country you are — because the main contributors to the problems are China, India, and United States.

CO: And that's we're hearing from the federal Conservatives, who are saying that the polluters are other countries, and so why should Canada do anything to its economy to reduce it if it's just going to be filled by others who pollute? Is that your view as well from the municipal point of view?

WS: Absolutely not. What I've said already is our action plan is to do everything we can possible as a municipality. Just because the other three countries are the main polluter, doesn't mean we shouldn't still be responsible. But we also I think internationally that's why I'm talking about different orders of government. You know we really need to put pressure on the main polluters.

CO: What do you say to all the hundreds, the thousands, the hundreds of thousands around the world who are turning out into the streets — young people especially — and they're looking at us, and saying why aren't, why aren't those who have power and authority doing something to fix a condition that is going to affect their lives so much? What do you say to those young people?

WS: I would say get educated, get informed what your local government does, what your provincial government does, and what your federal government does. And advocate at the proper level that'll do the biggest change.

CO: And if they did that research, they find out that Calgary doesn't have targets.

WS: Well, then they can certainly ask. But they can also ask what are you doing about it? So you know, for example, I talked to some protesters a few months ago, and I asked well you're protesting for the climate. And I asked them well, what does the city do? Not a single person in that group could say what the city actually does. So that's what I'm saying is it's important that you're informed and educated and advocate in the right direction.

CO: Given that you are in the heart of oil and gas production in Canada, being that Alberta, but Calgary is the capital of that industry, is it, in fact, politically too difficult to actually have a climate change emergency in Calgary, given how many people are employed by that industry, and how much of your economy comes from it?

WS: For me, you know we're all independent. We're not part of a party. Our council, we're not tied to anything. And I'm proud of our oil and gas industry. And we're also proud of the environmental changes and the technology that happens. So we're not pressured to do anything. We can make any decision we want because we're independent.

CO: Councillor Sutherland, thank you.

WS: You're very welcome. Have a great day.

CH: Ward Sutherland is the city councillor for Ward One in Calgary. That's where we reached him. And we've got more on this story on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Atwood interview

CH: Thirty-five years is a long time to wait for answers. But Margaret Atwood's fans never stopped waiting to find out what happened to Offred — and to Gilead — after "The Handmaid's Tale" ended. A few days ago, hundreds of those fans waited in line in Charlottetown just a little longer to hear Ms. Atwood speak to our own Carol Off about "The Testaments" — her long-awaited sequel to that 1985 classic. Their conversation was wide-ranging and — I will warn you, if you're still reading that sequel — it contained spoilers. All right, you've been warned. So here's an excerpt from Carol's recent conversation with Margaret Atwood — beginning with a question about the striking cover of The Testaments, which features women's silhouettes, rendered in bright green ink.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Is it true that the entire world ran out of green ink trying to print all the copies the books. Is this a true story?

MARGRET ATWOOD: It's true [everyone laughs].

CO: If you want this green ink, you can't get it.

MA: You can now. They made some more [crowd laughs]. But there was a two week hiatus when they had to halt the printing of the covers because they didn't have enough green ink. But I'll tell you something else about that. When we first did the cover design, it was light blue instead of green. And it was light blue in the books. And I looked at it, and I thought that looks very cold. And I got out my crayons, and I colored green [laughing]. And it looked much better. So I changed the color inside the book, and said let's do green. So we did.

CO: It's beautiful. You've said that “The Testaments” is, well. it's 35 years we've been waiting to hear what happened to Offred. And you said you had so many questions. Over these years, so many people have questions for you, and that in this book, you answer some of them. What are the questions you answer in “The Testaments”?

MA: Okay, did she die? No [everyone laughs]

CO: Spoiler alert.

MA: Spoiler alert, yeah. Well, I mean the TV series got ahead of that one anyway, so I couldn't have just killed her, off could I? Not after that. It’s enough to whack Elizabeth Moss over the head without killing her off too [everyone here likes to laugh]. So the other question that was very much in my mind, we know in “The Handmaid's Tale” that Gilead end because 250-plus years later, they're having an academic seminar on it. So we know it's not still around. Because once in period of history is over, it either becomes a battle re-enactment, a history book, a theme park, or an academic seminar. [CO leads everyone in laughing] And there was a version of this [laughing] in which I had made it into a theme park. And my first reader said that is way too far over the top. I’m sorry, you cannot do this — even though it might well happen in real life. And I've been to a lot of theme parks and battle re-enactments, and I'm really quite fond of them. But it became a seminar anyway. So how did Gilead end? We're told that it did end, but we're not told how. And totalitarian regimes and in several ways, as far as I can tell from reading about them, and being present when they came down — because I'm quite old. Obviously, I’ve seen a number of them come and go. So either they inter-purge one another from inside, or they get attacked from without, or a combination of both of those things, or they fail to deliver the promises that they have made at the beginning. Because they all come in saying they're going to make everything a lot better if only we get rid of those people. Because there's always a those people that they tell us that we have to get rid of. And then they don't deliver on these wonderful promises, and then they start crumbling away, or they morph into something else. For instance, China still calls itself the same thing it called itself under Chairman Mao, but it's very far from being the same place. It's really something that he wouldn't have recognized at all — for good or ill. But it's not the same thing. Or there is a generational succession. So the second generation hasn't had to go through the bloodbaths and purges that the first generation has put itself through. And then the third generation arrives, and fails to see the point. And we've seen that go on. It can be a popular uprising as in Romania, where they hold down not only Ceausescu, but all of his statues. I'm very interested in statues. You know, who gets a statue made of them? When we decide that that's enough of that?

CO: And when they come crashing to the ground.

MA: When they come crashing down.

CO: Like Saddam Hussein.

MA: What happens to them after that. After a certain period of time, they might get resurrected as sort of kitsch.

CO: If they survive.

MA: If they survive, they might return as kitsch. And if they survive long enough, they become antiquarian treasures.

CH: That's Carol, speaking with Margaret Atwood at an event in Charlottetown, PEI on Friday, about Ms. Atwood's new novel, "The Testaments" — and about so much else.

[Music: Ambient]

Tennessee whiskey

Guest: Fawn Weaver

TA: To the people in his hometown of Lynchburg, Tennessee, Nathan Green was known as "Uncle Nearest" He was the first African-American master distiller in the United States. He was also a slave. And a few years ago, the iconic brand — Jack Daniel's — finally recognized his role in helping a young Jack Daniel learn how to make Tennessee Whiskey. Now, a distillery has opened in Shelbyville, Tennessee, that bears Mr. Green's name. Fawn Weaver has been the driving force behind the Nearest Green Distillery. She's the co-founder and Chief Historian of Uncle Nearest Premium Whiskey. We reached her in Los Angeles, California.

CO: Fawn, what's it like to finally see this distillery open for business?

FAWN WEAVER: Oh man, it's pretty incredible. And every weekend, the people pour in. And they'll drive in. We've had folks drive in ten-and-a-half hours just to be able to do the tour — so seeing that much passion from people around the country is pretty incredible.

CO: And what did people learn about Nearest Green, and his legacy with whiskey?

FW: Well, they learn about his overall story. And he is called the “Godfather of Tennessee Whiskey” for a good reason, which is the most famous Tennessee whiskey maker the world has ever known, Jack Daniel, is the person who he taught. And he was more recently acknowledges their first master distiller. But he's also the first African-American master distiller on record in the United States. And so it shines a light on who he was and his incredible legacy, but also that we still have a lot of work to do on our American whiskey side of things.

CO: And maybe on some history too, because he was a slave at the time, wasn't he? How come it took so long before the world knew that Jack Daniel had learned how to make whiskey from a slave?

FW: You know, I wish I knew that answer. What I do know is when Jack was alive, and when his descendants were alive, and they ran the distillery, that story was always told. And so if you went on tours, they talked about not only Nearest, but they would point you to where his grandchildren lived. And then after Jack's eldest descendant to run the distillery passed away in 1978, we see that the story disappear after that point.

CO: And there was this article that came out in the New York Times — 2016 article — and at that time, we spoke with relatives of Nearest Green, who said they had known their whole lives that their relative had taught Jack Daniel how to make this whiskey. And that it was only very recently that the company wanted to make it more public. Do you have a sense of why they suddenly… Well, not suddenly, but I guess they decided that it was a good thing to let people know?

FW: Yeah, I think that it's whenever you have a leadership change over. So they had a new president Jack Daniel that came in, and learned very early on into his time as president that this was a part of the story of Lynchburg, that this was a part of the heritage. But Jack Daniel distillery was purchased by a company in Kentucky a very long time ago. And so if you are in Kentucky, I imagine if I put myself in their shoes, you kind of run from the story because the story that was being told — or that was understood at that time — was not positive. It wasn't until I stepped in and began doing the research, and interviewing all of Nearest's descendants, and interviewing all of Jack's descendants, that I found this common thread of love, honour, and respect among them. And that the fault of the story being lost was not Jack and his family. And so once that came forward, then I think that their trepidation they were able to then embrace the story because they recognize it’s a positive one. But if you think about slavery here in America and the distilleries, I can tell you that almost every single bourbon distillery, every American whiskey distillery, that was making whiskey back in the mid-19th century, they all had black slaves as distillers. Very few of them did not. We only know one of their names. And the only reason we know Nearest’s name is because Jack and his family made sure that we did. So you kind of look at it, and if you're in Kentucky where most of this is going on, everybody up there has run from this story.

CO: I guess because it has its roots at a time with Jim Crow laws, and this would have been the negative publicity for the company if you broadcast the association with slavery, right?

FW: Absolutely. What we have done with Uncle Nearest, which I think is fantastic, which is all of these companies are capitalistic by nature. They are there to make money. It's not altruistic that they're going to go back into their history books and say hey, we also had a slave. But what they're able to do is look at the success of Uncle Nearest whiskey, look at the success of Jack Daniel continuing to grow after this story came out and say hey guys, maybe America is in a place where we can recognize those who are at our roots. I really do challenge them to bring them forward. I mean America is not going to crucify you if you take the time to actually honour those who were at the beginning. But I also understand the fear. Because when this story first came out, the story went very negative on social media. All of a sudden, Jack was a slave owner, he stole the recipe, he had Nearest, all these different things that were not true. So I think we as America also have to be better about getting the facts of something before we take it automatically to the negative. And I think that will allow for more companies to come forth and say hey, yeah, there were slaves that helped build us. But I think we both have to make corrections on both sides. Because if the companies don't know that they can come forth with that and not literally be skewered, then nobody is going to come forth with it. And then us as African-Americans, we’re never truly going to know our legacy and our heritage.

CO: In this creation of the distillery and the brand, you're working with Nearest Green’s descendants, right? They're working at the distillery with you, is that right?

FW: Both Nearest and Jacks [deep laugh]. Se we have both at our distillery. Our head of administration — the person who does all of the blending and curating for our very popular 1884 batch — is Nearest's great, great granddaughter. On the other side, you have our head of whiskey operations was the head of whiskey operations for Jack Daniels for 31 years. It's the family business. That's her lineage. And so the two families, when nearest and Jack were alive, those two families worked side-by-side, and now we're doing it again. It's just that we're doing it at a different distillery.

CO: What do you think Nearest Green would think of all this?

FW: I actually don't think Nearest would care. Everything that I know about him, he was such a humble human being that he never seemed to care about credit. Who I think this actually matters to is his pupil, is the person who he taught, is Jack. Because his personality would have wanted to see Nearest honoured. And so I think you know both of them are sitting side-by-side in heaven, looking down at this. I think Nearest is looking at it and going man, you guys are really making a big deal over this. And Jack is sitting there going you guys are not making a big enough deal.

CO: Okay, Fawn, thank you.

FW: Thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

FW: Bye-bye.

CH: Fawn Weaver is the co-founder and Chief Historian of Uncle Nearest Premium Whiskey. Today, we reached her in Los Angeles. And head to our webpage for more on this story: www.cbc.ca/asithappens.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Montgomery mayor, silica disease

Montgomery mayor

Guest: Steven Reed

CH: Montgomery, Alabama has been described as a city with competing historical narratives. It was the first capital of the Confederate States of America. But it was also at the centre of the civil rights movement — with links to the likes of Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. Today, more than half of the population in Alabama's capital city is black. But in its nearly 200-year history, the city never had a black mayor. That changed yesterday — when voters chose Steven Reed to be their next leader. He'll be sworn in next month. We reached Steven Reed in Montgomery.

CO: Mayor-elect Reed, congratulations.

STEVEN REED: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

CO: What was it like last night as the results rolled in, and people could see that the first black man — black person — to be elected mayor in Montgomery was about to happen?

SR: It was a very surreal feeling. I think it was a feeling of joy and accomplishment. But also one of reflection for so many people who have sacrificed, not only in Montgomery, Alabama, but across this country to see opportunities like this, and I never thought that they might have that hope that someone that looked like them would be in this position. I think it was just a great feeling to see the multiracial, multicultural coalition that we built really sustain us and take us across the finish line in such a resounding way.

CO: You said elsewhere that this victory was bigger than just you — bigger than Steven Reed. What does it represent? I think it represents progress. And I think it's representative of a signal of a change in Montgomery — a changing south — that really is looking for new ideas to propel us forward. And I think that it represents certainly a mark that begins a new chapter in the history of our city, which is 200 years old.

CO: Just give us a sense of why this makes history given the past of Montgomery, Alabama, given where it's come from in racial politics?

SR: Sure. Montgomery has a very complex history with race — like a lot of other cities. And it's one that probably has been more on the forefront than in other places in the United States. You know, when you think of Montgomery being founded here in 1819, it was also a major slave trading hub at one point. Then it went on to become the capital of the Confederacy. And then it birthed the modern civil rights movement, and gives rise to a young Baptist pastor from Morehouse College by the name of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. So that history is very significant in the present and where we are right now. It is not lost on me what that means for so many people who are from Montgomery, as I am. But may be of a previous generation, and what it means for people throughout this country.

CO: And we should remind people this is also where the bus boycott movement began with Rosa Parks back in 1955.

SR: That is correct. And I was proud to have the enthusiastic support of Mrs. Parks former attorney Fred Gray, and was a very much diehard supporter of our campaign, as was Congressman John Lewis, who was of course one of the speakers at the March on Washington in 1963.And was also a protester and a student nonviolent coordinating committee leader, who led the voting rights march from Selma to Montgomery.

CO: You said that you become mayor of a very changed and changing Montgomery. What was the Montgomery of your childhood? What was it like to be an African-American child in Montgomery?

SR: I think that in my childhood, growing up in Montgomery, it was much better than certainly previous generations before me. I did not have to integrate any schools like some of the parents of my friends. I was part of a integrated school system, which unfortunately, now has become resegregated more by choice than by law. But I was part of a promising Montgomery that was just you know 25 years removed from some of the higher tension issues regarding race and laws and things along those lines. So we benefited a lot. There were a lot of great experiences and ideas that I had in Montgomery from people of all walks of life, of all races. And so I think I got to see a big promise in Montgomery at a very good time, but one that maybe has not matured as much as you would like to have seen that since I was a school here.

CO: But you led some of those changes, didn't you? You were the first black probate judge in your county. And in 2015, you were the first Alabama judge to issue same-sex marriage licenses. You were breaking through those barriers for others, weren't you?

SR: Absolutely. We were doing those things because we know them to be right. We know them to be what our country is all about. And that's what people fought for. And that's why they led sit-in movement. That's why they participated in marches. That's why they filed court cases against you know death threats and things along those lines. And we know that the coalition of people who fought for freedom in this country has always been a multiracial coalition. It has never just been blacks, or African-Americans, or slaves even if you go back to the abolitionist movement. There's always been a coalition of people who stood up for what was right and stood up what was wrong. And that's what I've tried to do since I entered public service. And that's what we've been grateful to receive the support not only in my city, in my state, but across this country. You don't do things because you want to be recognized for them — or at least you shouldn't. You should do them because they're right. And you should do them because you have principles. And you have a core value system that guides you in a way to those things which are fair for everyone. And that's how I've tried to lead. And that's how tried to serve.

CO: What can you actually do though as the mayor of Montgomery? You know people are leaving. You know your population is low. You need jobs. People are struggling there. So what are you offering?

SR: What I offer is a vision of opportunity that involves investing in public education in a first-class manner. It's hard for us to think that we can get to a first-class education product when we're only putting a coach-class fare in that same system. You get what you pay for. But we also want to make sure that we’re living in a safer community, and that our police have a good trust relationship with our community here and our citizens. We want to make sure that we're looking at criminal justice reform measures that we can implement. And then lastly, we want to make sure this is a place where people can earn a livable wage. And where we can restore the dignity of work, and make sure that regardless of what your zip code is or where you may have been born, much less your skin colour or your gender, that you can't get a job that will allow you to live the American dream.

CO: Well, I wish you best of luck, Mayor-elect Reed. Thank you.

SR: Thank you so much for the opportunity.

CH: That was Steven Reed, the mayor-elect of Montgomery, Alabama.

[Music: Indie rock]

FOA engine nuts

CH: When someone says something is driving them nuts, it's usually a metaphor. But in the case of one Pittsburgh couple and their car, it's weirdly literal. They were driving those nuts. Earlier this week, Holly Persic was driving home when she thought she smelled burning. So she stopped, popped the hood, and blew her own mind. That's a metaphor. But she was surprised: under the hood Ms. Persic discovered some 200 walnuts, crammed around the engine. It's odd. But it didn't blow our mind — because back in 2015, Carol spoke to British mechanic David Evans, who had a similar encounter with a customer's car. Here's part of their conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID EVANS: It's an automatic, and it didn't want to change gear properly. And it was struggling to go over 40 miles an hour. And my first initial thoughts was a blocked exhaust catalytic converter.

CO: So you it into the shop, and you opened up the hood.

DE: So I looked into the engine a bit more. So I took the air filter off, and then we took the actual panel out, and that’s when we discovered all these nuts.

CO: You discovered all these nuts?

DE: Yeah. Basically, underneath the panel, there should be like open box. And it was just rammed full of nuts.

CO: [laughing] How many nuts are we talking about here?

DE: Well, hundreds. Once we removed all the nuts from the whole air filter system, it actually filled up a supermarket carrier bag.

CO: What kind of nuts are we talking about?

DE: I don't actually know what nuts they are, but looks like a bird feed. So when we actually went back to the customer and explained what the problem was, we took a bag of nuts to show up, and she had actually been putting these type of nuts on her bird table in her back garden.

CO: [laughing] So what's the theory. I can guess, but what’s the theory as to how the nuts got into her engine?

DE: Well, we’re thinking it was either a squirrel or a mouse was taking them off of the bird table, coming around to the front of the house, and getting in the garage, and then climbing up into the engine bay, and then making its way into the air filter. Because there's like what they call a cold air feed pipe, which sits behind the headlight and that basically draws in the air from there. And that's got to be about three or four inches in diameter. It was making its way up into that pipe, crawling along to the actual air filter box itself. Obviously a good hideaway for nuts, and obviously carried on doing it until that whole system was just completely full. You couldn’t get any more in there. It was just physically full.

CO: [laughing] So for every nut, for those dozens and dozens of nuts, that squirrel had to make that trip?

DE: Yeah, yes, I don't know how long it had so of been doing that for.

CO: How did the woman react when you told her?

DE: Well, she was as shocked as we were. We brought her in the bag of nuts, and said this is the problem with your car. And she was a bit baffled at first, and we sort of explained what you actually meant by it, and she couldn't believe it.

CH: From March 13, 2015, that's mechanic David Evans speaking with Carol. You can hear their whole conversation — and see photos of the car in question — on our website. That's: www.cbc.ca/asithappens. We're sharing it with you again, after a Pittsburgh couple discovered more than 200 nuts under the hood of their car earlier this week.

[Music: Piano]

Silica disease

Guest: Cecile Rose

TA: Engineered stone — or what you might know as "quartz" — is one of the most popular materials used to make kitchen and bathroom countertops. It's smooth, and it's shiny. But cutting and polishing these slabs of manufactured stone to that smooth shine creates a lot of dust — airborne silica dust. And that's not only making some workers very sick — it's killing them. A new report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has linked 18 cases of an irreversible and deadly lung injury to people who worked with engineered stone in four U.S. states. Now, some members of U.S. Congress have called on the Department of Labour to step in to protect workers. Dr. Cecile Rose is a co-author of the study. We reached her in Denver, Colorado.

CO: Dr. Rose, what's it like to see members of U.S. Congress take your study on silica dust so seriously?

CECILE ROSE: I think it's absolutely vital. It's clear that this disease needs to be prevented. And that more work needs to be done to make sure that workers in the STEM fabrication industry are protected.

CO: But we've known about silica dust and its harms for some time. What does your study show that we didn't know before?

CR: What our study shows is that this very ancient disease is continuing to occur, and particularly now in the engineered STEM industry despite the fact that we know that silicosis is preventable with adequate dust control. What I saw in my own clinic at National Jewish Health was that there was a spike in cases of silicosis. And when we went back and looked, we found that all of those silicosis cases were occurring in young engineered stone fabrication workers in Colorado. What we also found was that disease was progressing in these younger workers — many under the age of 50 — despite the fact that, in some cases, they had been removed from exposure.

CO: But does that mean it's just recently that silica from working with engineered stone has become a problem, or that it just went undetected until now?

CR: I think in part, the problem has been that engineered Sstone has increased in popularity over the past 20 years or so. Engineered stone is a mixture of quartz and resin that contains over 90 per cent silica. So when it's cut and polished and ground without using good engineering controls or wet methods, then the exposures to the silica dust are extremely high.

CO: But is it also to some extent because you and others are saying wait a second, what's going on here? That maybe this trend has been going on for a bit longer, and took somebody just to take a second look at the data?

CR: I think you're right about that that it's probably been going on for longer than we realize. Part of what happened is that we've learned from other countries — particularly Australia, Israel, and Spain — where these cases have been reported now for several years. But we really weren't noticing the problem until more recently here in the United States. And, of course, silicosis is a disease of latency. That means it takes typically a few years to show up after people have been first exposed. But in these engineered stone workers that we see, it seems like the latency period is shorter than we understood it to be in in past exposures.

CO: Why do you think that's the case?

CR: I think part of the reason is because the silica dust levels are so high in the engineered stone quartz-containing materials. So when people cut and grind and polish this without using good dust control methods, then their exposures are extremely high. And that makes the latency period shorter.

CO: And so is it at all the stages of production and installation? I mean factories where they're making the stone is one thing, and then there's the right down to the people who are in your house. Is it all along the way that you're seeing this silica dust having this effect?

CR: We're not really sure about whether this is happening during installation in residential environments, for example. But what I've heard from speaking with workers is that they will often cut the stone particularly in new residences or commercial settings underneath plastic so that the dust doesn't contaminate the rest of the environment. And if you're working under plastic in dry dust conditions, then the exposure concentrations are extremely high.

CO: Good heavens!

CR: And that's what happens. These workers come down with silicosis much faster.

CO: Is there anything they can be doing? Because we often see people who are working inside houses doing renovations they wear those masks you can buy anywhere. Is that enough protection?

CR: No, wearing a simple dust mask that you can buy anywhere that hasn't been CID tested or cleared for use is not adequate protection. It's the employer's responsibility is to ensure that the workplace is safe. And the way to do this is through good engineering controls and work practices. But there are some things that that workers themselves can do. Using wet methods to make sure that the dust levels are kept down, making sure the water is pointed at the stone that is being worked on, adding more water if it starts to go dry, making sure does capture systems pull the dust away from you if you're the worker. Those kinds of things can be very important and, of course, even things like avoiding dry sweeping is vital. We've seen silicosis in two young stone fabrication workers who did no direct stone fabrication. Instead, they did try sweeping of the workplace.

CO: What does silicosis do to people?

CR: Silicosis is a scarring disease of the lung. So what happens is that it can progress, and the scarring becomes worse. So that people become more and more short of breath, and have worse and worse cough and phlegm. To the point where their lung function can be so bad that either they die of respiratory failure or they need a lung transplant. There's just no cure for this disease. The other problem with silicosis is that it is associated with risks for diseases like tuberculosis infection of the lung, lung cancer, and auto immune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis. We know that these diseases can be very disabling. The only solution to this problem is prevention.

CO: And that's where we're seeing in the United States. The House Committee on Education and Labor is calling on what's called the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to put in a program. What are they asking them to do?

CR: What they're asking them to do is to reinstate what's called the National Emphasis Program on Silica, which was repealed in 2017. Without an active National Emphasis Program on Silica, It's more difficult for OSHA to go into a workplace without first having a worker complaint or a referral, and make sure that the silica dust levels are well controlled.

CO: And OSHA being the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. Why were these withdrawn in 2017?

CR: I'm not sure why it was withdrawn. I think part of the issue was that OSHA had just created a new silica standard. And apparently, felt that the national emphasis program might no longer be needed. But I think it's very clear now though that they need to reinstate it.

CO: There was an engineered stone that trade group spokesperson sent a written statement to NPR saying the risk of silicosis is not specific to engineered stone. And as long as workers are following proper procedures there really isn't a danger. So what do you say to that?

CR: There's absolutely no doubt that engineered stone is causing preventable cases of very severe silicosis in the United States, and around the world. There's simply no question about it. We know based on reports from other countries, as well as our own work, that engineered stone is a problem. And it's probably a much bigger problem than we were even aware of now. We think that our findings are the tip of the iceberg.

CO: Dr. Rose, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CR: Thank you very much. My pleasure.

CO: bye-bye.

TA: Dr. Cecile Rose is a co-author of a new study on silicosis, linking the severe lung disease to engineered-stone fabrication workers. She is a pulmonologist and professor of medicine at the National Jewish Health Hospital. We reached her in Denver, Colorado.

[Music: Sombre]

Milk study

Guest: Julie Dunne

CH: They're small vessels with spouts that date back thousands of years. And according to research by Julie Dunne and her colleagues, they're basically really old baby bottles. They're the focus of a new study that was published recently by the journal Nature. Researchers say it tells us something new about prehistoric children's diets. Ms. Dunne is a biomolecular archaeologist at the University of Bristol, and the lead author of this study. We reached her in Bristol, England.

CO: Julie, these vessels, the images of them, are quite beautiful. Can you just describe for people what they look like?

JULIE DUNN: Yes, they're amazing, aren't they? They vary tremendously. They're quite unique. The main shape is of a very small bowl — sometimes five to 10 centimeters across. But some are very plain, and others are made in the most amazing shapes of mythical animals. So they have feet — sometimes two, and sometimes four — and they have lovely little heads with sticky up ears. People often say to me they look like kangaroos, but I don't think there's any kangaroos in Europe [CO and JD laugh]. But the feature they all have in common is that they all have a little spout that liquid can be suckled from.

CO: And how old are they?

JD: So the ones we analysed around about just over 3,000 years old. But we know that they go back much further than that. You actually find them 7,000 years ago in Central Europe.

CO: Did you know immediately when you started seeing these what they had been used for?

JD: Well, there’d always been a small amount of controversy over this because most archaeologists did think because of the shape that they were for children. But others said well, it is it is possible that they could be used to feed sick people or the elderly. So that was one of the reasons why we wanted to analyze them and find out their contents because that would confirm what they were specifically.

CO: Now, if these things were thousands of years old, how can you figure out what they had in them as liquids?

JD: Yeah, so what we do is a technique which is called organic residue analysis. And what we're actually analysing are something called lipids. So these are like the fat of the natural world. And we can take a piece of pot shard, and actually grind this up, and extract the fat that have been soaked into this vessel over the years it was used. And then we use this combination of chemical and isotopic techniques to determine what the commodities were that were processed in them. And in this case, it was ruminant animal milk. So that would be milk from cows, sheep, or goats.

CO: And so that by finding that this is the milk from some kind of animal, does that tell you for sure that it was children who were drinking from these bottles — these vessels?

JD: Well, the kind of smoking gun was that the vessels we analyzed we very specifically looked for in children's graves. So that was our final confirmation.

CO: So what does that tell you about the society that you're looking at? Because this is around what's now known as Bavaria where you found these. So what does it tell you about how societies were organized?

JD: You know, it’s telling us a lot of things. So this is the first time we actually know what prehistoric infants were fed. We had no idea of what they were eating or drinking. It's telling us that we know the vessels must be used for either supplementary feeding and/or weaning. So because we do know that children were weaned then between six months to two to three years. I think it's also telling us an awful lot about these Neolithic families themselves because the vessels are really made with a lot of creativity. They're very playful. And you can just imagine the children seeing these, and they would laugh. When you look at the pictures, your face just lights up. And I think that's telling us an awful lot about the love and the care that these prehistoric people would have had for their children.

CO: It's very playful, isn't it?

JD: It is very playful, yes, yes. And this is a difficult time in in the human life cycle. Because what we do know is that the infant mortality was 50 per cent. So a lot of babies died.

CO: And so how might have this changed life for the women who were then able to put milk into one of these vessels, and not be the one who had to be there breastfeeding their babies? How would that have changed their own activities within the society?

JD: Yes, so it would have actually had a massive impact because well we know that it actually does is that as soon as domesticated animals — so that's cows, sheep, and goats that produce milk — become available for women to feed. Women actually start having lots more babies. They start to have them every two years, whereas previously when we were hunter-gatherers, they had them every five years. And what that means is a massive population boom — a big baby boom. And so people start living in bigger and bigger settlements. So we know there would have been more women to sort of you know take care of babies so that perhaps some of the women might go out and do work. But this living in larger settlements is essentially what leads to the growth of cities, and really puts us on the path to urbanization — the kind of life that we live today.

CO: Now, having bottle-fed babies, having babies weaned off the breast, and given the bottle, has been liberating women for centuries.

JD: For a long time. Yes, obviously longer than we realized.

CO: But nowadays, it liberates them so that the fathers or the partners can take over the feeding.

JD: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.

CO: Were the men involved in, or do you think it was other women who were giving the babies their milk?

JD: Yeah, I mean we we really don't know that. But actually, interestingly, although the vessels all predominantly contained animal milk, one of the vessels, it did look that there was some mixing of non-ruminant fat. So that could be pigs because they're the only non-ruminants really that we're eating at that time. But it is possible that it could be human milk. So it may be that mothers were expressing milk into the vessels as well. And then perhaps Dad might have taken a turn, who knows?

CO: You know, it's interesting, you find some of a simple object like this, and then you can figure out so much of how things have changed, and where they come from. It's quite fascinating.

JD: It is, yes. Yeah, that's the beauty of archaeology. And the nicest thing about this study was there's you know I really felt — and I know my colleagues did — there’s such a real connection to these babies and moms.

CO: Julie, thank you.

JD: It's a pleasure.

CH: Julie Dunne is a biomolecular archaeologist at the University of Bristol. We reached her in Bristol.

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October 09, 2019 episode transcript

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