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The AIH Transcript for September 16, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Lucy van Oldenbarneveld

CAROL OFF: Hello, I’m Carol Off.

LUCY VAN OLDENBARNEVELD: Good evening, I'm Lucy van Oldenbarneveld. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

LvO: Tonight:

CO: He was going home to change his shoes. But on his way 17-year-old Jonathan Davis was hit by a bullet — the latest victim of gun violence in the Toronto area.

LvO: An accident waiting to happen. Two 18-year-old University of Victoria students are dead after a bus crashes in BC — and a local First Nations' leader says he's been calling for upgrades to that road for years.

CO: The failsafes failed. Now, two Saudi oil facilities are badly damaged, Houthi rebels in Yemen have claimed responsibility — and there are big questions about how low-tech drones could penetrate such high-security sites.

LvO: Saying the hard stuff about avoiding the hard stuff. Sean McCann knows his music has inspired a lot of drunken nights — but the former member of Great Big Sea tells us he's had a sober second thought.

CO: Ratty or not, here I come. If you despise rats, I have two bits of news that will confuse you at first, but impress you later: they can be trained to play hide-and-seek — and they have fun while playing it.

LvO: And...exclamation murk. Scientists at MIT have created a brand-new black so black it absorbs nearly 100 per cent of light — and we'll find out whether they're as scared of it as we are.

LvO: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that whispers: hello darkness, my new friend.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Mississauga shooting, Saudi oil attacks, blackest black

Mississauga shooting

Guest: Selma Alincy

LvO: A family is in mourning tonight in the Toronto suburb of Mississauga. Seventeen-year-old Jonathan Davis was shot and killed on Saturday evening. Police say the 17-year-old was an innocent bystander when seven people in dark clothes and balaclavas opened fire in a parkette near his family's home. There are reports that the shooters may have been targeting a rap video being filmed at the scene. Selma Alincy is a close friend of Jonathan Davis' mother. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Selma, at what point did you realize something horrible had happened?

SELMA ALINCY: So what happened was I received the call from my friend, and all I can hear her she was panicking. She said. Jonathan, Jonathan, and help, someone help. And I said hi, it's me. I said what's wrong? Everything okay? And she just kept repeating Jonathan, and then she’s saying asking if someone can help. I hear people in the background. I didn't know exactly what was going on. So I was like okay, I’m coming. I had my headset on — my earpiece in — so I just kept her on my earpiece, and I said I'm coming, I'm coming, and saying hello.

CO: And this is the mother of Jonathan?

SA: Yes.

CO: Okay, and so you ran out, and what did you see?

SA: So when I got there, I saw that the police blocked off the front of the complex. So I parked my car across the street, I ran in through the front to go towards the back, and then I saw it being taped off. She was still in my ear because I still had the phone connected. I can hear her, but I couldn't see her. But I saw the body on the ground, and like I didn't know what happened. So then I see Jonathan's father come towards me, and was like Selma, of what happened? Where’s Jonathan? And I said I'm not sure. So I was going to go under the tape, but the police stopped me and said no, you can't. And I said well, this is his father, and I'm a family friend, am I able to go over there? And they said no, the paramedics were working on him. Then the police officer said I'll let you know what's going on. By the time the police officer walked back to where Jonathan was laying, they took a blanket and covered him. The police officer returned back to me and said, unfortunately, he died.

CO: Were you conveying all this to Jonathan's father?

SA: Yes, he was right there. He's half blind. He's not able to see that well. So he was right beside me, and then I told him, I said, unfortunately, he's passed. He's dead. And his father says well, can I touch him? I said well, not right now. It's a crime scene, so you can't touch him right now. So the mother had ran back to the body, and from where she was. I'm not sure where she came from because everything just happened so fast. I will never forget this image in my head. She took the cover off of his body, and lifted it up, and saw her son lying there. They brought me around the tape and told me you okay, they're gonna bring her over to the other side. So me and the father, I guided him, and we walked over to the other side to where they were gonna bring her closer to where she lived. And she just fell in my hands. She was numb. Like she didn’t know what to do, she didn’t know what to think, she didn’t understand, she was beside herself. It was it was a horrific day. I'll never forget that day.

CO: This poor woman!

SA: Yes, yes.

CO: And father as well. You were the support for them at that point.

SA: Yes, yes, I was.

CO: Seventeen-year-old boy, Jonathan Davis, and he had nothing to do with this film that was being shot.

SA: Nothing.

CO: Where the shooting began.

SA: No, had nothing to do with it. He wasn't someone that hung out outside. He wasn't really into sports. He loved video games. He loved electronics. He would go with his dad when his dad was able to see; his dad was an electrician, so his dad wanted him to learn to trade. So he would take him with him to different jobs. That's who Jonathan was — a quiet, quiet, young man very, respectable person. I've known him since he was a baby; like I've grown up around him and his brothers and sisters. And his mom, me and her are really good friends. Like this was so senseless. And then when she's re-enacting and telling me what happened, then she said your number was the only number I can think of to call. Because she knows that if she calls me, I'm coming, I'm there. And she started telling me when she saw him on the floor, and she picked him up and held his head, and she was trying to apply pressure by where the gunshot wound was that was to the side of his head. Just hearing that and her explanation, I’ll will never, ever forget that.

CO: Did she see it happen? Did she see the shooting happen?

SA: No, she did not see the shooting happen, no. She heard it, and she went outside while it was happening. So she didn't see anyone, she doesn't know who did it, she didn't see anything like that, she heard it. She's looking to find her child because he just left the house. He left the house, and he was going back to change his shoes because that's what the father said.

CO: I understand Jonathan also one of the things he did for his dad was that his dad was losing his sight, that he was, more-or-less, his father's eyes.

SA: Yes, he was. So he helped his father out a lot. He was his father's right-hand. And his father keeps on saying like I've lost my right hand — that he did everything for me. He loved his father. He was there for his father.

CO: There's a picture of him in the paper. He’s just an absolutely lovely-looking boy, [slight chuckle] and now lost to this family. How can you help them get through at this point?

SA: Well, I'm definitely supporting her, and everybody else involved. I’m there in the evenings. I’m there, I’m calling her, and making sure she's okay. I was just there not too long ago. And I'm going to return back over there this evening. We’re trying to make funeral arrangements earlier. So I'm just there for her to talk to, for her to lean on, for her to cry with. She didn't have insurance for Jonathan because it's not something you really think about. But I started to Go Fund Me yesterday.

CO: You know that Jonathan is not the first boy to be killed in this way, first the family to lose the child. What do you want to hear politicians — because they're campaigning right now — they're all talking about what they would do. What do you want to hear from those politicians about this loss of life of these young people?

SA: I'm looking to maybe they need to listen to the community, and see what they think is missing. The politicians may think one way, but you have to understand what the community needs. So give the community a voice.

CO: Selma, I'm so glad that you were there for that woman, for that family, and our condolences to you and to all of them. Thank you for speaking with us.

SA: You're very welcome. Thank you.

LvO: Selma Alincy is a friend of Jonathan Davis' mother. We reached her in Toronto. Mr. Davis was shot on killed on Saturday in Mississauga, Ontario. The 17-year-old's death is Peel Region's 18th homicide of the year. In nearby Toronto, police say there have been more than 311 shootings so far this year, with 448 victims — which includes those killed and injured. Justin Trudeau was asked about the shooting at a campaign event in the area this morning. The Liberal leader has suggested that he might have an announcement to make about gun violence later on in the campaign. Reporters wanted to know what's taking so long.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think it is important to highlight, first of all, that we took action immediately when we got elected. We made promises in 2015 on strengthening gun control. Because the reality as we're seeing in Mississauga and elsewhere around the country is far too many communities and families are facing terrible tragedies because of gun violence. And it is really important that a government show leadership on that. That's why we move forward on significant measures to bring in gun control — common-sense gun control — over the past four years, concluding with Bill 71 that was passed just this June that strengthens a number of gun control measures for Canadians. We recognize, however, that there is more to do. And I can assure you we will be making announcements further in this campaign about the next steps we are taking to strengthen gun control in this country. But at the same time, I will highlight that part of the very important choice Canadians are going to be making in this election about whether to go backwards or keep moving forwards is highlighted by the fact that the Conservatives under Andrew Scheer have committed to repeal the measures that we just brought in last June to strengthen gun control — including enhanced background checks. And certainly, will disagree with the measures that we're going to be announcing to move forward on further gun control.

LvO: That was Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau speaking at a campaign event outside Toronto earlier today.

[Music: Sombre]

Saudi oil attacks

Guest: Frank Gardner

LvO: It marks the most punishing blow against Saudi Arabia since the civil war in Yemen began. On Saturday, aerial attacks struck oil production facilities in Saudi Arabia — the largest in the world. Houthi rebels in Yemen have claimed responsibility. And it's had major reverberations on the markets, and the global supply of oil. The Houthi rebels' chief ally is Iran. And today, Saudi Arabia claimed that the weapons used in the attack were Iranian. The United States has published satellite images, claiming to show that Iran was behind the attacks. And US President Donald Trump said his military was "locked and loaded" to take action. Frank Gardner's been watching things unfold. He's the BBC's security correspondent. We reached him in Birmingham.

CO: Frank, there seems to be a lot of fallout from this attack over the past 48 hours. How significant is it?

FRANK GARDNER: Oh, it is very significant because this is the first time that the four-and-a-half-year Yemen war has actually impacted the global economy and the oil markets in particular. Up until then, it was a really nasty, largely unseen war that was resulting in appalling humanitarian catastrophes, but for the Yemeni people. Now it has affected the world economy. You know it’s harmed Saudi oil production. So the big two questions I think for the Saudis are: how quickly can they repair the damage? They say they can repair it. But it could take weeks. Some people say months. And secondly, what's to stop whoever did this attack doing it again?

CO: The claim is that Houthi rebels in Yemen have claimed responsibility. How likely is it that they did it?

FG: Well, I think there is little question that Saudi Arabia’s enemies did it, obviously. And that enemy is going to be Iranian-linked, even if it wasn't Iran itself. So the Hutus have said they sent a fleet of ten drones propelled by new jets that were able to do this. The Americans do not believe, nor do the Saudis, that these drones were launched from Yemen. So it's still a bit of a mystery about exactly where they were launched from. But there's no mystery about the effect, which is devastating to Saudi's economy and international reputation.

CO: And so that's why the doubts are being cast — mostly by the United States — that it was the Houthis who did it — that they would possibly have the capacity to launch these jet-propelled drone strikes well, hundreds of kilometres away into the Saudi oil facilities. So what do you think? Do you think it's possible?

FG: I do. Because the Houthis usually they have only short-range drones — fairly unsophisticated ones. But recently they developed something called the UAX One, which is much more powerful. It had Iranian help on this, although Iran denies it. And essentially, really, Carol, what we're looking at here is an example of asymmetric warfare. The Houthis don't have an air force. They're being pummeled from the air. But they are resilient. They've illegally taken over the most populated part of the country — including the capital. The Saudis thought in 2015 they could bomb them into surrender. That hasn't happened. So they've gone on bombing, and the Houthis have not budged, not really. There've been peace talks, but they haven't amounted to peace. So now the Houthis are hitting back.

CO: One other player — one other possibility — is that there is there are some suggestions that there was assistance from inside the kingdom — inside Saudi Arabia — that may have at least in some way assisted this attack. What are you hearing on that respect?

FG: What is possible is that Houthi sympathizers, Yemeni nationals, or possibly people paid by the Houthis used Saudi soil to launch these attacks. But we don't know for certain. All we know is that there were 19 impacts, and there were enough to take out half of Saudi Arabia's daily oil production, which is massive. I've been to this enormous processing complex, and I've seen firsthand the physical defences they've got on the ground. But they don't seem to be capable of protecting it from these drones in the air. They're going to be asked about how analysis this was able to happen. Saudi Arabia spends billions of dollars annually on very expensive state-of-the-art defences. It buys all these aircraft and tanks and air defences. But it's something like this can happen, what's the point? I think some Saudis will be demanding revenge, which will probably mean you know yet more airstrikes by Saudi Arabia on targets in Yemen. Because they're running out of places to hit they’ve bombed the place so many times.

CO: But now that the focus has shifted away from the war in Yemen, to the sabre rattling between the United States and Iran, and also with Saudi Arabia. That when United States says it's locked and loaded, The Revolutionary Guards of Iran say they're ready for a full-fledged war, we've seen how close John Bolton wanted to bring the United States into war. Is that where they're headed at this point?

FG: Neither side wants that. That's for certain. Donald Trump's got to stand for re-election. And he does not want to embroil the United States in yet another war. Iran knows that while it might get in a few lucky shots to make life difficult for people in the Strait of Hormuz for shipping and drive up oil prices, ultimately if it gets involved in a shooting war, it's going to be completely pummeled. The U.S., and to a lesser extent its Gulf Arab allies, will absolutely hammer Iranian defences. It is no match. The bigger picture in all of this is that the White House — this administration — which withdrew unilaterally from the Iran nuclear deal, and has slapped on secondary sanctions on Iran, meaning that not just U.S. companies, but other companies can't deal with the United States if they deal with Iran. It's crippling the Iranian economy. Iran's oil exports are way down. Their economy is in deep trouble. It's running out of money, and that's hurting. So Iran is looking for ways to hurt people back.

CO: Frank, we will leave it there. We will obviously be following this story very closely. I thank you for speaking with us tonight.

FG: You're welcome.

CO: Bye-bye.

FG: All right. Goodnight.

LvO: Frank Gardner is the BBC's security correspondent. We reached him in Birmingham.

[Music: Ambient]

Blackest black

Guest: Brian Wardle

LvO: Once there was a black blacker than the blackest black. It is called Vantablack — a substance developed by Surrey NanoSystems in the UK. A substance that absorbs 99-point-9-6 per cent of visible light. A darkness so dark it approaches the supernatural. But lo, there is a darkness darker. A black so black it makes the soul weep, and the eyes say, "I totally don't know what's going on". Researchers at MIT say this possibly-occult colour sucks up 99-point-9-9-5 per cent of visible light. Brian Wardle is a professor of Aeronautics and Astronautics at MIT and director of the lab that led the study — in partnership with MIT's artist-in-residence. We reached Mr. Wardle in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

CO: Professor Wardle, how did you discover that you had actually developed the blackest black we've ever seen?

BRIAN WARDLE: The reason we were thought to look was as an artist-in-residence, Diemut Strebe, that I'm hosting at MIT. And she's very interested in ultra-black materials, and because those involve optical properties which we don't usually think about, when we grew the new nanotubes, we said wow, they look darker than the usual you know black stuff that we've been growing for like a decade. We said well, let's go measure it. And we measured it, and that was a terribly useful thing to have done. And really the art really pushed the science in a different direction, which I think is an interesting and unexpected result.

CO: Okay, before we get more about the art. What you're describing — the material — is carbon nanotubes. So what are they, and what do they look like?

BW: So these are hollow crystalline carbon tubes, a diameter on the order of a nano metre, which is a thousand times, maybe 10,000 times smaller than the diametre of a hair on your head. There's maybe 50 billion fibers per square centimetre. And this sort of class of materials is actually natural processes that create them. But in the way we did it, and the way most people do it, it’s very organic terminology. We grow them. We grow them from a catalyst nanoparticle seed — super saturated with gaseous carbon, and then that starts to extrude a carbon hollow tube very quickly. And we had lots of catalyst particles working next to each other, and you get 50 billion per square centimetre, and you can grow grass. Or if you get the recipe right, you can grow a forest of these nanotubes.

CO: [laughs] When you say you worked with MIT’s artist-in-residence to take a look at this blackest of blacks, what did you do to actually see how it worked, to see its effect in light?

BW: Yeah. So like I said, we synthesized the carbon nanotube using CVD. So we did that on the surface of a donated two million dollar diamond.

CO: Why a diamond?

BW: Diamond is interesting because it's also carbon, right? But most diamonds that we think about you know allow light through them. But the carbon nanotubes do the opposite, and you know that dichotomy I guess is one of the things that Diemut talks about in her art. She wanted to do it because in art there's a concept called over painting, where you maybe devalue something valuable. But when you do that perhaps actually you increase its value. So it's a bit of a challenge to the art community, and that was part of the reason why we debuted the art piece the New York Stock Exchange.

CO: And that's where the black diamond is right now?

BW: yeah, the black diamond is the New York Stock Exchange for three months on display.

CO: But what you have done is created the blackest black by going from what we've covered the story of Vantablack, which absorbs 99-point-96 per cent of visible light. And now you have found a way to suck up 99-point-99-5 per cent of visible light. How much difference does that really make?

BW: To a human, I'm not sure. I haven't compared the two objects side by side. I don’t have any Vantablack. The one aspect that we measured that a lot of folks don't sort of speaks to omnidirectional blackness. So most of these measurements are done sort of like you know banging the light like you throw a ball against the wall and it comes right back to you. But light on real objects comes from all directions. And our measurement we measured sort of as a function of angle on the blackness didn't degrade. And I think that was one of the reasons why you know when we just visually observed it ourselves, we’re like wow, that’s a lot darker than the normal really black stuff that we've been handling for a decade.

CO: What are practical applications you can have with this blackest of black?

BW: So it's generated a lot of interest from the optics and the laser communities. And as well you know part of that community is with observational telescopes. We're looking at radio telescopes for looking for exoplanets. But in any of these applications where you have stray light bouncing around that is noise to the signal that you'd actually like to observe, like any light coming into your detector that's not so the exoplanet is noise. So having a material that absorbs more, and more, and more light, there's been a lot of interest in that or I would say optics.

CO: Do you think it's possible to capture 100 per cent of all light?

BW: What I would say is you know this was a basically just a discovery and observation we made because we were working with the artist. You know we decided to measure it. It was blacker than anything reported. I think you know the blackest black should be an evolving number, right? Or an evolving material. I think others will find blacker blacks as time goes on.

CO: All right. Professor Wardle, thanks for speaking with us.

BW: Thank you so much.

LvO: Brian Wardle is a professor of Aeronautics and Astronautics at MIT and director of the school's Necstlab, which recently discovered what is. . . for now at least. . . the blackest black.

[Music: Ambient]

Dream ring swallowed

LvO: Jenna Evans was living the dream. And she was not into it. The dream involved Ms. Evans and her fiancé, Bobby Howell, being chased by bad guys on a high-speed train. Why the bad guys were bad is unclear. But in the dream, Mr. Howell knew what they were after: Ms. Evans's engagement ring. He urgently advised her to protect it in the most cunning way possible: by swallowing it. So she put it in her mouth, grabbed a nearby glass of water, and gulped it down, like she was swallowing a painkiller, which she would subsequently need in real life. Because the train and the bad guys weren't real — but the glass of water, and the engagement-ring-swallowing were. We know all this because of some of her Facebook posts, explaining her ordeal. She's prone to extremely vivid dreams. And this one spilled over into reality, which is how Ms. Evans and Mr. Howell ended up at a San Diego hospital. She got an X-ray, which showed the ring, clear as day, in her stomach. So, as she put it, quote, "they called a gastroenterologist and decided it would be best NOT to let nature take its course. (Thank God)." Unquote. They were able to retrieve the ring before it made its way into her intestines. Now, she takes her ring off at night. Because otherwise, Ms. Evans: you snooze, you lose.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: B.C. buss accident, Sean Mccann

B.C. buss accident

Guest: Robert Dennis

LvO: They were on a field trip to a marine science centre on Vancouver Island. But before dozens of University of Victoria students and their teaching assistants made it there, their bus went off the road — and crashed. Now, two of those students — both 18 years old — are dead. Robert Dennis was at the scene of the accident about a half-hour after it happened on Friday night. He's the chief councillor of the local Huu-ay-aht First Nation. He says he has been calling for upgrades to this road for decades. We reached him in Anacla, British Columbia.

CO: Chief Councillor Dennis, when you and your wife got to the scene of this bus crash on Friday night, what did you see?

ROBERT DENNIS: Well, what we saw was a lot of the passengers of the bus had been moved to the roadside. When we approached them, they had their flashlights flashing. And I assume the flashlights were there their cell phones. And they're warning us. And so we stopped. And when I got there, I could see that people were still being helped from the bus and to get them to roadside.

CO: Seventeen people went to hospital. Were there ambulances there at that point?

RD: Not at that point. No, there was no ambulances there at all at that time.

CO: But did you know that that two of the students had had died?

RD: Not at that time, no.

CO: What state were the passengers in at the point that you got there?

RD: Well, their state there was a lot of anxiety. There was lot of you know bordering on hysteria. I heard one young lady crying. She wanted to get home. So there were some of that going on. And then I guess to calm themselves they sang a happy birthday song to one of the students. That seemed to help and brought things to calm.

CO: You didn't want to get in the way, but was there anything that you and your wife could do to help?

RD: Well, the wife went to speak to some of them. And she found some of them needed extra clothing. Some of them needed water. So we were able to provide that. That's the least we could do. And then she just you know tried to talk to some of them to find out more information, help calm some of them down if she could.

CO: And the bus driver, we should say there were 45 students from University of Victoria on the bus, there were two teaching assistants, and the bus driver. And I think you knew or you recognized the bus driver. Were you able to have a conversation?

RD: I recognized this man. I said Hey, I recognize you. And he said yeah, I'm the bus driver. I've seen him in Banfield at different times in the past.

CO: What did he tell you about how the crash happened?

RD: He just told me that there was another vehicle approaching him, and then he took caution to you know be on his side of the road so that the other vehicle could pass. But I don't know what happened, but I'm assuming he probably hit a soft shoulder and the bus rolled over.

CO: A lot of people talking about that road and how dangerous it is. What can you tell us about it?

RD: Well, I can tell you that it's certainly a road that you know does need to be improved because it is the main access road for the people that live in Anacla and Banfield. And is the main act access road for tourists that come to the area. And from what I hear, there’s 30,000 to 40,000 tourists come to visit our area on an annual basis. And so the road is in at most of the times you know what I would call reasonable condition. But it all depends on the weather. If we have a lot of rain, then there's you know there's generally a lot of potholes, and big potholes for that matter. And it could take you considerable longer time to get to the Banfield or Port Alberni, whichever way you're going.

CO: But this is it's a gravel road, right?

RD: It's a gravel forest service road, that's correct.

CO: So this road, you're saying that 30,000 or 40,000 people are using it, they're coming and going as tourists to the region. This is the road it takes students to this marine science centre on Vancouver Island. This is a road where people live in the community in Banfield or Anacla, they use this road. That's a lot of traffic on a road that seems to have a lot of parts of it that are not in great shape. Has anyone talked about what needs to be done about this road?

RD: Well, I think it's safe to say that every regional district member representing Banfield has raised this. The Banfield Marine Science Centre has raised this issue. Huu-ay-aht First Nation, through its participation has raised this issue. And as recently as about two years ago, we were able to get all the stakeholders into a meeting here in Anacla. And I believe we had 17 different people that came from different segments of the community. And there was unanimous consent there that you know a road improvement was needed. And the province of British Columbia — the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure — had representatives there that kickstarted what I would call a more serious dialogue with the province about two years ago. And so we are on ongoing discussions with them.

CO: Now that we have this tragic accident with two young people dead, all these others injured, and all the trauma they've gone through, do you think that will push the province to do more to maybe get this road more secure for people?

RD: I really hesitate how to answer this one because there's been other tragedies before this one. And it has moved the province to take action on the road. All I can say is from my perspective anyway, the current government has been more active with discussions with the community in improving the road. But like I said, you know that's been going on now for the last well since this current government got in. The current MLA for our area is committed to seeing that road improve. But as you know when you're working with government, you know they have priorities. And I guess he just hasn't been able to convince the premier and his cabinet that this is a priority issue.

CO: Chief Councillor Denis, I appreciate you telling us about what happened on the road, and thank you.

RD: Okay.

CO: Bye-bye.

RD: Bye.

00:34:29 - SPEAKER: F4

LvO: Robert Dennis is the chief councillor of the Huu-ay-aht First Nations. He was in Anacla, British Columbia. RCMP and Transport Canada continue to investigate the cause of Friday evening's bus crash. Western Forest Products, the company that jointly owns part of the road, has said it's regularly maintained, and was recently graded before the accident.

[Music: Sombre]

Kathleen Richardson obit

LvO: Winnipeg's arts community is remembering a patron whose generosity made a big difference to cultural organizations across the country. Kathleen Richardson spent more than 40 years heading up her family business, James Richardson and Sons Limited. But her passion was ballet. In the 1950s, Ms. Richardson served as president of the board of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. And she was instrumental in opening its downtown headquarters in 1988. Kathleen Richardson died Saturday at the age of 91. Evelyn Hart is a former principal dancer of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. This morning she joined Marcy Markusa, host of CBC's Information Radio Winnipeg, to talk about Kathleen Richardson — and the indelible mark she left on the ballet world.

SOUNDCLIP

EVELYN HART: Warmth, intelligence, generosity, kindness. She was really the fairy godmother of the Winnipeg Ballet, and of the arts in Winnipeg. I call her a sort of a gentle giant. She was, of course, a very tall woman, very kind, but she did not suffer fools lightly. She was fiercely intelligent. So I remember her mostly for the twinkle in her eye and the smile that she would always greet me with.

MARCY MARKUSA: She was a quiet philanthropist, to say the least. Did you ever engage in conversation with her about where that love of the arts came from for her, why it was so important to her?

EH: She did at one point share with me the fact that when she was in high school in Winnipeg, she was taken out onto the line, and they would do sort of Isidora type kind of dancing lessons. And, of course, she always chuckled at herself doing that. But I think it just came from the fact that her parents also exposed her to opera and ballet and the theatre at a very early age. And I think it was just something she recognized was really important for a community to have the arts.

MM: I know obviously she was a great lover and contributor to supporting the ballet. What do you think her legacy is when we look around Winnipeg?

EH: The fact that a community aside has this kind of arts community. I mean she's going to be sorely missed. And I hope that's her example is being picked up by other people. I see it as a very spiritual community. And a community that is incredibly rich compared to a lot of the other cities that are of its size because of the arts. And her legacy she makes Winnipeg a very special and unique place.

LvO: Evelyn Hart is a former principal dancer of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet. She was talking about philanthropist and businesswoman, Kathleen Richardson. Ms. Richardson died on Saturday. She was 91 years old.

[Music: Sombre]

Sean McCann

Guest: Sean McCann

LvO: Sean McCann says he's had to apologize for a quarter million hangovers. He's joking. But as a former member of the band Great Big Sea, there aren't many musicians who've sung more drinking songs than he has. Sean McCann is about to tour rural Newfoundland for the first time in about 25 years. And before he sets off, he's written an essay telling his fans that things have changed. It's called, "I love you, Newfoundland, but I can no longer be your kitchen party poster boy." We reached Sean McCann in Ottawa.

CO: Sean, you say in your essay that you don't want to be the kitchen party poster boy anymore. What do you mean by that? What's a kitchen party poster boy?

SEAN MCCANN: Well, a kitchen party in Newfoundland is basically the place where most parties happen. The kitchen party brand is something that Newfoundland has kind of embraced as a marketing tool to attract tourism. It's not a bad brand too. Its traveled well, I think. I think we had some part in that as Great Big Sea. And it's not what I do anymore. I've embraced a life of recovery. I've been sober for almost eight years. And I'm coming back to Newfoundland, and I wanted to manage expectations. I'm coming to talk to Newfoundland youth about addiction and recovery. And I've had to overcome some expectations of me. People literally asking me can we call this event a kitchen party? And, unfortunately, no, those days are over for me.

CO: And now you're not the first person who has taken it on themselves to try and tell young people — tried to tell anybody — about the problems of addiction, someone who is recovering from addiction and feels compelled to help others to do that and to speak to others. But rarely do people associate that with the place they come from to the degree that you have in this essay. What are you saying about Newfoundland and its drinking culture?

SM: I think we have a drinking culture that is arguably bigger than other regions in the world. I think we actually rely on it as a marketing tool for tourism purposes. And I think that it's dangerous to build brands like that because you eventually have to live up to them. I've also learned through my recovery that people drink and use drugs for reasons. And I was born in rural Newfoundland, and I really have a personal understanding of what teenagers face there. People drink and use drugs for reasons. I was 15 when I was sexually abused by my priest, and it led to an addiction. And I want to go back to where I came from in particular and talk about that. I don't want to talk about kitchen parties anymore. I want to talk about the consequences. And I'm not saying that every kitchen party is wrong or evil or bad. I'm saying there are dangers associated, and we need to know those too.

CO: You know people know you from Great Big Sea, and from the music, and from everything you have done in that regard. And associate you so strongly with Newfoundland and it's culture. But you have left Newfoundland. When you say what you want to go back to Newfoundland, why did you leave?

SM: One of the first things you have to do and you want to embrace recovery is remove yourself from the temptations that led you into addiction. And living in St. John's — especially maybe as a member of Great Big Sea — it was really hard to find a sober community when I sobered up. I lost contact with my various acquaintances. And I was very much alone at a very vulnerable time. It happens a lot, Carol. You just you know you change your lifestyle, you move away from those things, and that's what I did.

CO: When I've heard this before far from recovering addicts, and they did say that they have to move away from, they have to be away from their friends, find new friends, find new circles, new activities, rarely do they have to leave their home. Rarely do they have to leave their city, and their culture, and everything that matters to them as much as Newfoundland matters to you. Do you find that to be quite extraordinary?

SM: I love Newfoundland and I miss it. I miss it every day. But it's really hard to be an alcoholic in St. John's, where there are so many bars. The tourism slogans are kitchen party this, screech in, it's all around, and people drink a lot.

CO: You became sober while you were still with Great Big Sea. Did that change your relationship with the band members, with Alan Doyle and the others?

SM: Yeah, I don't regret leaving the band. I can't get on that bus anymore. Just because I sobered up didn't mean the lifestyle changed. And again, that's a culture in and of itself. Living on a rock and roll bus is a different way of life, and a dangerous way of life, and I've lost many friends to it. But what I did, which I probably if I had my time back I wouldn't have done, I did the 20th anniversary tour sober. I had just become sober, and I got on that bus and did a 16 months sober on the bus. And that caused a lot of tension and a lot of pain. And I'll take one-third of the blame for that.

CO: And what's your relationship like with the musicians, with the others and Great Big Sea now?

SM: We don't really have any conversation. I haven't spoken to the boys in a long time — over a year.

CO: When you take your message to young people about addiction, and warn them about it, what does it tell them that you had to give up so much to not drink? That you had to leave your city, your home, leave your band, your friends, you had to change so much. What does that say to them when you tell them that?

SM: What I hope to do is to be able to pre-empt problems. You know, I hope they will be able to stay in Newfoundland because they will be self-aware, and won't be indoctrinated into this kind of really boozy culture. Because what I what I know people drink and use drugs for reasons, and we're all going to encounter suffering. It's how we deal with it. And I made the mistake of resorting to drugs and alcohol for 35 years I was carrying this secret around. But secrets can kill you. And the only way to defeat a secret is to tell it. But if I can save one single teenager in Newfoundland from the darkness of addiction, this trip will be worth it. And you know this piece I wrote for CBC — this op-ed — I mean this was a hard thing for me to do. I knew I would get some criticism for this, and take some heat, and I have. But you know I think I struck a nerve too. I've started openly spoken about a problem that you know many Newfoundlanders are aware about, but we never talk about.

CO: How much pushback from people who are upset or defensive by what you've written about Newfoundland? How big is that?

SM: It's actually a very small part of it. But what struck me was the very few who were critical, how really angry they were. And my heart goes out to them because I think I've struck nerves there. Ninety-nine per cent of the comments were very positive. I'm still wadding through the hundreds of emails and messages of mostly people saying thanks for bringing this up. This needed to be brought up. And I'm glad I did.

CO: Well, Sean, I want to thank you as well for being so frank and honest with us, and in this article. And I wish you success on this tour you now launching.

SM: Thank you so much, Carol. I hope so too. Again, I really I love Newfoundland with my all my heart, and I can't wait to go back.

CO: Take care.

SM: Bye.

LvO: Musician Sean McCann is a former member of Great Big Sea who wrote an essay for CBC about leaving Newfoundland — so he would stop being tempted to drink. You can find his essay at cbc.ca/N-L and we've tweeted a link on our Twitter: @cbc-as-it-happens. He was in Ottawa.

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Bernier debate analysis, hide-and-seek rats

Montreal Holocaust tour

LvO: From the Rubenstein Water Fountain to the Jewish Public Library to the Herzl Dispensary — where many Jewish refugees spent their first nights in Montreal. A new audio walking tour of the city shares the stories of Holocaust survivors who came to Canada in their youth. After their parents were killed, they were brought here through the War Orphans project. Most of them ended up in the area known today as the Mile End or the Plateau. And now, they're remembering their first impressions of that neighbourhood and its residents. From the "Refugee Boulevard" project, here are the voices of Musia Schwartz, Paul Herczeg and Tommy Strasser.

SOUNDCLIP

SOUNDCLIP

MAXIME BERNIER: Hello everyone. I'm very pleased with Mr. Johnston decision to invite me to the leaders’ debate. That was the right decision. Half of Canadians wanted to hear from us. And Canadians would be able to look at all the options. And I can tell you that the People's Party is a real national party with serious reforms that needs to be done for a freer and a more prosperous country. See you soon. Thank you.

LvO: Mr. Bernier is clearly keen to make his debate debut. But Greg Lyle knows the commission's invitation could be a double-edged sword. Mr. Lyle is the President of Innovative Research Group, which does polling, amongst other things. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Greg, what do you think made the commission change its mind and invite Maxine Bernier to the debates?

GREG LYLE: Well, the commission set out criteria that they have to live by. And one of the elements of that criteria is will they have candidates in over 90 per cent of the seats? The answer is yes. And then there are three other criteria, and they only have to have a yes to one of those three. So for a new party, the question was Is it possible that they can get elected in several seats? It doesn't have to be a lot of seats, just a few seats. The party identified five seats where they thought they had a reasonable chance of electing members. And when the commission did their own polling, they found that it is possible that, in fact, they may be able to elect more than one MP.

CO: So Mr. Bernier seems to think this is good news. But the Conservatives seem worried that it might be bad news for Andrew Scheer. And they've gone so far as to suggest that this was engineered by a hand-picked debate panel using a Liberal-friendly pollster. Do you think the Liberals engineered this?

GL: I don't think it was engineered. And I actually thought that the impact on the Conservatives isn't as straightforward as that would suggest. It's not just a matter of having somebody show up who could siphon off Conservative votes. He's also on a number of measures, I think most people would agree to the right more extreme than Andrew Scheer is. And that a key element of the Liberal campaign strategy is to depict Andrew Scheer as extreme, as scary. So he's going to have someone on his right — figuratively if not literally — who's gonna be out there saying things that are more extreme than Andrew Scheer will say. So it actually complicates the Liberal efforts to show Scheer as an extreme candidate.

CO: So Mr. Scheer starts to look more moderate because of Mr. Bernier being so prominent?

GL: Exactly. So it's not simple. And I'm sure the Conservatives would prefer he's not there. But the rules were set out in the order in council. They don't seem particularly partisan. They're basically saying if a party has a decent chance of electing several members then they should be allowed in the debate. The commissioner laid out his logic very clearly. And you know they're not saying that they're certainly going to elect members, or even likely to elect members, but it is possible they could. And when you look at the evidence that they brought together that appears reasonable.

CO: I wonder what happens during the debate when we get into certain issues like, for instance, immigration. We know that Maxime Bernier has made strong statements on what he calls mass immigration. There were third-party billboards representing him on that. He said of the Liberals that they support extreme multiculturalism.

GL: Well, right now in Canada, when we ask people to choose two points of view on immigration — whether or not immigration is a threat to Canadian values, or whether newcomers make Canada stronger, forty per cent see newcomers as a threat. And so right now there's a consensus among the mainstream parties in Canada that immigration is good, and there are issues on the edge of that debate. But now you've got someone coming in — much as Preston Manning back in the late 80s — and saying you know there's a bigger issue here you people are talking about, and I'm going to raise it. That's interesting in terms of where will it go? Or is the public going to embrace a party that opens up this issue, which the major parties have not been willing to debate. Are people going to say no, the way he's phrased it is too far out of my comfort zone, and I can't go there.

CO: The other area where we could get quite interesting is on the issue of climate change and climate policy. All the parties to some degree have some kind of climate change policy. But he does not. Mr. Bernier does not because he says he doesn't believe the science of climate change, and he doesn't think there is an emergency. So what happens at that point doing the debate?

GL: Well, he's in a more difficult position there. So there's a fair number of voters that are willing to meet him half on immigration. But most Canadians believe climate change is real, and most Canadians believe we need to do something about it. And where Scheer’s narrative has been effective against the Liberals is not challenging them on the need to do something about climate change, but saying that Canada leading alone won’t make a difference. We need to lead with others. And by your own numbers, the carbon tax you have in place isn't sufficient to meet the goals that we've set. So I think once they start talking about climate change, again, that'll be a case when Bernier is out there saying that he doesn't think it's an issue. That will put Scheer more in the middle.

CO: What happens if there's a stronger presence for Mr. Bernier in this election, and he's able to attract more voters? How does that change the final outcome in your view, or does it change it?

GL: It does. Because disproportionately, people supporting the PPC, if they weren't voting for the PPC, disproportionately they vote Conservative. But the same thing is happening on the left. Most of the people that vote Green would likely vote for the Liberals or the NDP. If the Green wasn’t in there, they wouldn't vote Tory. So you see on the centre left the Greens pulling votes away, you see on the centre right more on the right the PPC pulling votes away. All the established parties are having this challenge. So having Bernier in the debate raises the risk to the Conservatives that they will lose voters on the right flank. But it may help them keep voters from the centre. And so the net impact of Bernier and in the debate is a wild card right now. We can't say for sure which way it's going to go.

CO: Yet another wild card in this election.

GL: Of many.

CO: Greg, it's good to talk to you. Thank you.

GL: Thank you.

LvO: Greg Lyle is the President of Innovative Research Group. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music: World music]

NS blueberries lost

LvO: For the last week, farmers in Nova Scotia have been tallying up what they've lost. And it's more than they initially thought. Eight days ago, post-tropical storm Dorian blew through the province, and almost wiped out some crops. Fruit and vegetable farmer Earl Kidston figures he lost about half-a-million dollars in the storm. CBC producer Robyn Simon tagged along as Mr. Kidston surveyed his blueberry damage.

SOUNDCLIP

EARL KIDSTON: See this here?

ROBYN SIMON: All on the ground.

EK: Yep. Those green ones should still be on there. So it's not just the ripe fruit that gets dismantled off the bush. Some of our next pick, you can see there's hardly anything there to pick now.

RS: So what does that mean for your year?

EK: Well, we have some crop insurance that helps us some. The burden is still substantially on the producer, but it helps a bit. But other than that it means that yeah that's los to us. We don't have the cost of picking it, but that means we also lost everything else. So you know it's substantial for us for sure.

RS: Since 1990, when you first got into the blueberry business, have you ever had a year like this one?

EK: No, we've never had a hurricane result like this, and it's worse for our people too, and all the people that we work with and businesses we work with because it means that what was gonna go to market is not going now. It's on the ground, whereas before, we still had crop that produced later on. So yeah. See the same thing again. Notice the drastic difference, eh? See that cluster there? Well, these were all clusters in amongst here. And there’s all clusters they're not there now.

LvO: That was fruit and vegetable farmer Earl Kidston in Centreville, Nova Scotia, speaking with the CBC. This week, many of the foreign workers Mr. Kidston hired are returning home, because there is so little produce to pick.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Hide-and-seek rats

Guest: Annika Reinhold

LvO: Researchers — and anyone who's ever tried to get one out of their house — know rats are smart. They can solve puzzles, run through mazes, and even walk a tightrope. All those skills are cool — or disgusting, depending on your take. But Annika Reinhold wanted to find out if rats could learn how to play a classic children's game: hide-and-seek. So she took six rats into the basement of the Bernstein Center for Computational Neuroscience in Berlin and got to work. Or rather, play. We reached Annika Reinhold in Berlin, Germany.

CO: Annika, can you just describe what hide-and-seek with rats and humans looks like?

ANNIKA REINHOLD: I actually started with a room, so we needed a large room, of course, because if the human has to hide as well, there needs to be enough space to make the game interesting. And we had like a 30 square metre room for that in the basement. So pretty much like you envision the perfect rat environment, I would say. And then we start with habitation. In order to play with animals, of course, you first have to habituate them to yourself and the room, of course. So that took us like about five to ten days.

CO: How did you do that? How did you get them used to you? How did you do it?

AR: It's a lot of patience. So you just place the rat in the room, and at the beginning you take it out for like five or ten minutes of its home cage. So they have like a home cage, and I brought them downstairs to the home cage, so they have like a secure space to stay while they're in the bigger environment. And then when you take them out, you stroke them a little bit, you let them go around your body like basically go into your sleeve, and touching, petting, making them feel comfy in the room. That was the most important part at the beginning of the study because if they're afraid, then of course, they wouldn't play hide-and-seek because no one wants to play if they’re afraid. And we couldn’t tell if they were running away from us because they wanted to hide and not because they're actually playing.

CO: [laugh] And not be found. So you became friends with them, you got them used to the idea, but we know rats are very intelligent animals, and they can be very playful. How good were they at playing hide-and-seek?

AR: We may be thought oh, they would do like a really basic version of it, or just learn one of the things like playing hide or playing seek. But we were really surprised that they are actually very good in this game. So they can play both hide and seek, and they can switch between the roles, which is kind of the most impressive cognitive part of the game I would say because they adapt to both roles. And they also use both roles and play them in a strategic way. So it's not just hiding or seeking to the minimum level so that we would reward them with the social interaction that we did. But they also use certain strategies.

CO: How long did it take for them to get to play strategic hide-and-seek.

AR: After the habituation, which took like five to ten days, we started with the game. So first I taught them hide, and then afterwards seek or the other way around. So both separately, and then afterwards I would put it together so that they can actually learn how to switch between the two roles. And this like gradually increasing difficulty took us about five to seven days, so about one week for each of the tasks. And then putting it together is like another one to three days. In total it would be like with a habitation about like three weeks learning the game.

CO: But you were playing with them, right? So how would they do it? Just run us through a round of hide-and-seek with a rat.

AR: Every game started the rat jumping into the box, and then for seek, we started signaling to them that they would be the seeker by closing the lid of the starting box that we used. So the box was closed, they couldn't see where I'm going to hide. We used some white noise so they also didn't have any acoustical cues. And this was the sign for them that they're going to seek. And if you want to tell them that they need to hide, I would leave the lid of the box open, sit it down next to it pretty immobile, basically kind of crouching, not trying to disturb the rat, and then waiting until it would jump out of the box. And then it could look for a cover and hide there. And I would go and find it. So all this would take about 90 seconds max. So the rat had like 90 seconds to go to a hiding location, and then I would go find it, and interact with it if it was a good hiding location.

CO: And you're not giving them food, which would be just to give them that incentive. They were rewarded by you would tickle them, and stroke them, and play with them. So it was that was a social reward they got, wasn't it?

AR: Yeah, exactly. So that was a really important point that we thought about at the beginning. We didn't want them to play that game for a food reward because that would basically disturb the playful role of the game. So we wouldn't know if they would play it just for eating or because they actually had fun. The social reward consisted of basically interaction with the rat. So I would play with it with my hand like stroking, petting, tickling it. They liked tickling a lot.

CO: Did you see any evidence that they were actually having fun with this? I mean they're just being trained to do something. But were they actually having a good time?

AR: We definitely saw that they were having a good time. I think one of the first indicators are the vocalizations that we looked at. So we recorded vocalizations throughout the whole session. And so we would be able to look at those afterwards and see that they actually called in a range that is associated with positive emotions. So that was a really strong indicator for us. And then the second indicator that they're having fun is the way they're moving. So they're freely moving through the basement. They're not afraid of any locational area in the basement. They're having this playful jump. You call them joy jumps. And they would run away and re-hide, which was another strong indicator for us that they're having fun. It was not just them doing it for the reward, but they're also prolonging the time by running away or re-hiding so that it would take them longer until they would get tickled, and would get the social reward.

CO: Sounds like a lot of fun. Annika, thank you.

AR: Thanks a lot. It was fun talking to you.

CO: Bye.

AR: Bye.

LvO: Annika Reinhold is a neuroscientist, and one of the co-authors of a new study about rats' playful behaviour, published in the journal Science. We reached her in Berlin, Germany. And if you'd like to find more on this story, head to our webpage at cbc.ca/aih. And rats aren't the only animals who can play hide-and-seek, although it's harder for another creature, because it has eight arms to keep track of. In May of last year, Carol spoke with Giovanni DeGarimore. He owns a fish market in California. So you'd think he'd consider an octopus a meal, rather than a friend. But we reached him after he'd bought a live 70-pound octopus, just to release it back into the ocean. And played hide-and-seek with an octopus while scuba diving. Here's part of Carol's conversation with Giovanni DeGarimore, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Giovanni, why did you want to sell this octopus free?

GIOVANNI DEGARIMORE: You know it just seemed like the right thing to do. It’s as simple as that I guess. You know I've kind of grown fond of octopus over the last decade of encountering them in the wild while diving. And despite the fact that I'm in the business of selling seafood, it just seemed like one animal that I could no longer support the killing of. So when my dock manager called to tell me we actually had a live animal here at the dock that the fisherman wanted to sell us, my immediate response was no, and then it's almost as soon as I said no, I said actually, yes. Tell them we do want to buy it because I knew that I would be able to save its life. I knew that his next phone call would be to the other fish buyer down the street, which they would buy it and off it would be to the sushi bar by tonight.

CO: How much did you pay for it?

GD: I think it was a couple hundred dollars. It was not a lot of money, but I feel good about it, and I'd rather feel good than have a few extra hundred dollars.

CO: Well, it is an unusual feeling for someone who is in your business to have. So where did it come from? When did you develop this I guess affection for octopuses?

GD: You know, like I said, I think it's been kind of building over the past ten years as I've been fortunate to be able to go diving around the world, whether it's Fiji, or Tahiti, or Mexico, or Thailand, or you know all of the world. I've been fortunate to go diving, and had an interaction with an octopus quite a few years ago in Fiji, where I was actually able to play hide-and-seek with one while scuba diving at night for a good ten or 15 minutes. And I would kind of poke my head up, and he'd look, and then I'd put my head down, and he'd look for me. And it was a moment underwater — I’ve had many — that I'll never forget.

CO: And when you had this playful encounter with the octopus, I mean do you think that it was doing the same thing as you? What do you know about the intelligence and the playfulness of these creatures?

GD: Well, Studies certainly suggest — and there's a wealth of information on the internet — studies certainly suggest that they're highly intelligent creatures. They have many more sets of genes than most other animals. They’re highly intelligent. They’re, allegedly, capable of emotion and feeling. And so you know to me, that's kind of where I draw the line. So when I played with this octopus, it was clear that he was as interested in me as I was in him. And like I said, we'd kind of did this up and down. He looked at me and poked his head out at me. And then we went back and forth for so long that it was just kind of surreal.

CO: It sounds just delightful, but this was ten years ago. Have you had close encounter with an octopus since then?

GD: Oh, many. Yeah, I mean I haven’t played games with them, but I remember being in Mexico once, and I grabbed a conch shell from the bottom of the ocean, and was carrying it back to shore as kind of a trophy, you know? And as I was swimming back — I was about a hundred hard yards off the shore —my hands were kind of curled inside this conch shell as I was holding it. And I could feel these little tentacles touching my fingertips. And I immediately knew what it was. I knew that this was octopus because I could tell by the feeling of the suction of my fingers. And so I'd put the shell on the beach and waited a few minutes, and a couple tourist gathered around to see why I was staring at the shell. And sure enough, after about a minute, you know one tentacle, then two, then eight emerged and he was trying to make a getaway for back to the ocean. So I actually took him and placed him on my hand, and he held on, and we swam through the ocean together. And he seemed like he was enjoying the ride as we swam through the ocean for you know a hundred yards back out to where I found him.

LvO: From our archives, Carol speaking with Giovanni DeGarimore, who owns a fish market in California, back in May of last year.

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September 16, 2019 episode transcript

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