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The Current Transcript for August 27, 2019

Host: Matt Galloway

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE: Those in favour of mass immigration don't want to have a debate on this issue because they know that they would lose it.

MATT GALLOWAY: That's Maxime Bernier outlining his thoughts on immigration. The leader of the People's Party of Canada has made no secret of his plan were he to become prime minister to limit immigration. That point of view was articulated on a series of billboards that appeared and then just about as quickly disappeared over the course of about a week after much outrage with everyone from the billboard company to the third party advertising group whose name appears on the image disavowing the message. Just weeks away from an election call, what does this tell us about the tone of the conversation around immigration in Canada in 2019?And can immigration levels be debated without that debate turning into a shouting match? That's first up. And then we continue with the CBC original podcast, The Band Played On. Reporter Julie Ireton tells the story of three Ottawa teachers, their decades of abuse against students and the warning signs that were ignored time and again by those in power.

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VOICE: So I said I don't care. The men have to go and if you don't do anything about it I'm going to go further. I'm not going to let it go. You know look at me. I'm not going to let it go.

MG: Episode 2 of The Band Played On in 30 minutes. But first, the debate around debating immigration during a federal election. I'm Matt Galloway and this is the summer edition of The Current.

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Removing anti-immigration billboards is censorship, says columnist

Guest: Amira Elghawaby, Lise Ravary, Usha George

MG: Say no to mass immigration. That was the message on billboards that were put up across Canada last week. The billboards featured a smiling photo of Maxime Bernier and the logo of his party, the People's Party of Canada. And critics were swift to respond. Petitions were started, politicians spoke out and outrage grew on social media. On Sunday the company that owns the billboards said they were coming down in response to the criticism, much to the chagrin of Maxime Bernier. He tweeted that his message about immigration is "only controversial for the totalitarian leftist mob who want to censor it." While the wording of the billboards might be controversial to more than just the leftist mob, polls suggest that immigration is indeed an issue that Canadians want on the election agenda. A leisure poll in February had almost half of respondents saying they believe Canada welcomes too many immigrants and refugees. Another poll in June reported that 60 percent of respondents think the government should prioritize limiting immigration levels. Two people join me now to talk more about the issue of immigration in the context of the upcoming election. Amira Elghawaby is a human rights advocate and serves on the board of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. She is in our Ottawa studio. And Lise Ravary writes for the Montreal Gazette and is a broadcaster and columnist with Cogeco Media. She is in Apple Hill, Ontario. Hello to you both.

LISE RAVARY: Hello.

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Good morning.

MG: Amira, we'll start with you. What was your reaction when you first heard about these billboards and the message that went across them saying, say no to mass immigration.

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Well I was sickened, but not surprised. This is pure dog whistle politics. It's an effort really to signal to voters who hold sort of anti-immigrant views that the People's Party of Canada should be their choice. And so you know seeing this kind of American style politics a large divisive billboards, you know it was only a matter of time that we would see this here in Canada. What's giving me hope though at this point is a strong negative reaction to it.

MG: When you say that they're signalling dog whistle politics, what does that mean? And what particularly in that message say no to mass immigration, where's the dog whistle there?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Well there is the idea that mass immigration is translating to mean there are too many immigrants in Canada. That immigration is a problem to be solved. And this is absolutely contrary to the truth. The reality is immigration is key to the success of this country. This is not just the opinion of immigrants, this is the opinion of those, who look at economic policy, who look at job creation in this country, who look at you know how well our communities are doing and what everybody says right across the board is in fact Canada needs to continue the strong tradition of bringing immigrants to this nation. We need to continue to build economic prosperity. You know in a matter of years the boomer population is going to be retiring. Who's going to support them? Who is going to continue to work hard, pay taxes and ensure that we have the schools, the health care the roads, all of these you know services that we receive won't be able to go on if we don't continue to bring in immigration and actually to allow immigration levels to rise.

MG: Do you believe that the message is a racist one?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Well I mean absolutely it is. It is absolutely signalling that immigrants are a problem. And I think what's really important is that you know Mr. Bernier can claim that this you know this is him wanting to have a debate. But what it actually is it's him signalling to those people who again are holding these views that he is the one who's going to "save Canada from you know people who are not integrating, people who don't adopt Western values." This is all code words that he's been using. It's his narrative and what the rest of us have to do is say you know what that''s not what Canada's about. Canada is about an inclusive place that has actually succeeded by bringing in people from all around the world.

MG: I want to get to Lise in a moment, but he said that these billboards aren't controversial. He didn't put them up, but he has said that the message is one that that squares with what he's been saying. But he says it's not controversial because I mentioned this poll this larger poll in June, 63 percent of respondents say that they want Canada to limit its immigration numbers. Is it possible that if not what's on the billboard then his overall message reflects what a majority or at least a large minority of Canadians are saying?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Well I think what we have to understand here in Canada is that there have been so many movements just in the past few years that are creating and whipping up fear and xenophobia against various communities, whether it's immigrants, whether it's Muslims, whether it's Jewish communities, black communities. What we're seeing is that those who are seen as different are more and more being painted as a threat. And you know we cannot ignore the fact that there is a racist president in the White House right now. And all of the fear and xenophobia that he has been whipping up about immigration has certainly had an impact here in Canada.

MG: So you believe that that there's a direct line between that and the fact that 63 percent of the people who might be polled say that they want a limit to immigration numbers?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: I think there is a climate of fear and xenophobia about immigration and about diverse communities and certainly you know I can only look to the U.S. I have to look at the previous election in 2015 when Mr. Harper made the niqab, you know a face veil, only a very few number of women wear in this country, he made it one of the central election issues in 2015. Again whipping up fear the idea that you know those who are coming to Canada are unable to integrate and to adopt Western values when on the contrary people who come here are wanting everything that we all want, which is to raise our families and safe prosperous communities and contribute positively.

MG: Lise Ravary, you've been listening. Do you think that the message on the billboards was a racist message?

LISE RAVARY: Well it is a disgusting message. First of all it was a lie. I mean you know item number one because there is no mass migration to get immigration to Canada. It is not taking place and if you look at the government's proposals for the next you know little while, you look at the numbers, I mean you're talking about 350,000 people a year. If you compare that say with and it's not exactly the same thing, but it's just for the sake of numbers, if you compare that to the German crisis when the the refugees and the migrants started happening and Germany took in a million, I mean we are not nowhere near that situation. So Mr. Bernier is yes trying to whip up something ugly and you know he certainly succeeded in getting us to talk about it.

MG: Do you think that billboard should have been taken down?

LISE RAVARY: No of course not.

MG: Why?

LISE RAVARY: I mean as long as a billboard advertising is you know within the limits of the law, I don't see under what pretence we could say take it down. To me it's censorship. He's allowed to think what he thinks. He's allowed to say it to people.

MG: You yourself described it as ugly. You said he's whipping up something. That's not enought to take the billboard down?

LISE RAVARY: First of all he's a two bit player in the election campaign. So let's not give him the importance that he doesn't have. Of course those billboards made people talk about him and that's probably what they wanted. But at the same time to come out and say we got to censor this and take them down, to me that's the remedy is worse than the disease.

MG: What about the larger issue here and this is something that we're discussing with with Amira, that there are polls that suggest, more recent polls that suggest that Canadians perhaps are hardening in their attitudes towards immigration or at the very least want a larger discussion around immigration levels. What's going on there?

LISE RAVARY: Well one thing, a larger discussion is not a bad thing. I mean you know something good should come out of it. Canadians are very reasonable people and I really don't think in their hearts that they go along with these messages. But at the same time if you ask man on the street and this has been done, I've seen this reported on. You know if you ask how many immigrants are there in Canada? The numbers that people will give you has absolutely nothing to do with reality because they hear so much about it and read about it, it's on the news. You know they think that, some people think that we're being swamped by these huge numbers of people who are not going to integrate. Well that is false. If anything about the Bernier billboards is you could probably take it down, as I said before, on the basis of false advertising.

MG: Amira, do you worry that, to Lisa's point, taking down the billboards could you know inflame a situation? Could be worse than the issue itself?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Well I absolutely agree with Mr. Ravary that you know now we're talking about Mr. Bernier's policy and that's probably what he wants us to do. But looking at the Pattison Outdoor Advertising decision to bring down the billboards. I mean they're a business right. At the end of the day I mean this is not about censorship, this is about a business hearing from people across the country who said you know what this is not acceptable to us. I actually saw advertisers who work with Pattison saying you know we're not going to work with you if you continue to have these types of billboards you know on your advertising spaces. So they were actually responding to the sort of the widespread negative outpouring that they were receiving, which is not good business for them. So let's not pretend that this is about censorship or free speech and by the way free speech is not a ticket to demonize and marginalize. And I think that you know those who claim that this is about free speech, they're absolutely wrong. This is about the demonization of people that actually puts people in danger.

MG: Lise Ravary, what do you make of that?

LISE RAVARY: Well if you take things like this down on the basis of it's the wrong kind of message to give, you will create an extra layer of racists and I don't think it's worth taking the risk. I just want to go back to Pattison for a minute. I mean that's, we have to be realistic here. The only reason Pattison took this down has nothing to do with virtue at all it is strictly a business decision. They started by saying we're not going to take it down and then the phones probably started ringing. Clients saying hey you know I don't want to be associated with your business if you carry this sort of thing. But to say that they did it for the soul of Canada, that's misunderstanding how business works.

MG: We're not even in the official election period yet. Do you worry and I'll start with you Lise, about the tone of the debate around immigration. Whether this is an issue or not, that the tone already to some people seems like a toxic one.

LISE RAVARY: Yeah I do worry about the tone, but if we have to remember that this conversation, the discussions we're having here are held all over the world. It's not just here, it's a worldwide phenomenon. There is a resistance to immigration and just about you know some people like some countries like Hungary and Poland and Italy are you know not just putting up posters, but they're doing some really really bad things like keeping migrants at sea and that sort of thing. We're nowhere near that, but it is part of a bigger discussion and it will infiltrate our elections, although I don't think that it's going to become central to it. What will probably be talked about is not so much that you know how many people are allowed into Canada, but how well they integrate.

Amira, I mean again, we're not even in the official period yet. Is this going to be a central issue? And are you just briefly, are you concerned about the tone if people are talking already about immigration like this?

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Well I think absolutely I'm concerned about the tone and I think that there's a lot of reason for concern. So number one we already actually know that there are foreign sort of actors who have tried to sort of infiltrate our social media platforms with divisive narratives about immigration. That this is something that has already been done in Canada and it will likely happen again in this election. So we have sort of this sort of the outside to worry about and then internally we definitely see the rise of far right groups right across the country we see online groups like yellow vests Canada that are organizing and that are very divisive very racist very Islamophobic and anti Semitic homophobic and sexist. And these groups are flourishing and they are encouraging one another. You know we've seen death threats made by far right actors against anti-racist organizations. So you know there definitely is a negativity out there. And when we see you know some politicians pandering to that I think it's really important that we don't you know you know we talk about Bernier sort of a two bit politician and absolutely, but you know Mr. Scheer as well is very aware that among conservative voters that there is a high level of sort of anti-immigrant sentiment. And so he himself has played a little bit to that and I think to his own detriment in the past by for example opposing the U.N. pact on migration, as sort of again signalling to his base that you know he would be anti-immigrant right some of his policies. So you know I think thought you know if our politicians can really get behind the reality that Canada needs immigrants, this is a country that needs to go forward, needs to prosper, needs to continue to continue to have the standard of living for everyone that is beneficial that immigrants are integral to that and for everyone to feel included, is going to be absolutely critical in fostering a society that is diverse and and positive versus you know looking at other places.

MG: We'll leave it there. We're going to pick up on that in just a moment. Amira thank you.

AMIRA ELGHAWABY: Thank you so much.

MG: And Lise thank you so much.

LISE RAVARY: You're welcome.

MG: Amira Elghawaby is a human rights advocate, board member for the Canadian Anti-Hate Network. She was in our Ottawa studio. Lise Ravary writes for the Montreal Gazette, broadcaster and columnist with Cogeco Media. She was an Apple, Hill Ontario. Usha George has been looking at the immigration system in Canada for more than 20 years. She's director of the Centre for Immigration and Settlement at Ryerson University and is with me in our Toronto studio. Good morning to you.

USHA GEORGE: Thank you.

MG: Those billboards, were they dog whistles? The message that was on them.

USHA GEORGE: Yes I think so. Basically it's meant to incite fear. It's anti-immigrant. It is also showing a high level of government support the contributions immigrants have made to Canada.

MG: Let's talk about the message that was on there. Is there mass immigration to this country?

USHA GEORGE: No there's no mass immigration. Canada's one of the very few countries in the world which has got a very organized immigration system. We go by what is called the point system. We have an annual immigration plan that is percentage of the parliament, which is even passed by the parliament in order to take effect. We have three classes of immigrants. So we give priority to economic immigrants who actually come to the country and contribute economically to the country. Our family immigration is much smaller and our refugee immigration is even smaller than that. And then the annual immigration plan is actually put into practice by the Immigration Department. In 2017 they proposed a multi-year plan which just passed in the Parliament from .7 percent of the population to one percent of the population in 2020 is the aim. Mainly because there are major gaps in the labour market for skilled individuals.

MG: And yet there is still a narrative in this country that immigrants come to take "Canadian jobs." Where does that come from then?

USHA GEORGE: It comes from a lack of understanding about how immigrants contribute to the system. It comes from negative propaganda about immigrants. It also comes from the fact that more and more of the immigrants who come into this country these days are from countries that are non-European. So the diversity of the immigrants who are coming in also incites fear among far right groups and really conservative kind of individuals who feel that Canada is changing.

MG: Is it necessarily racist to want to curb immigration?

USHA GEORGE: In the case of Canadian immigration there is a very systematic and planned way to get people in. So that by itself is not necessarily, that does not open up much controversy. I think what the fear is coming from is the recent spate of border crossings from the U.S. to Canada and the large number of refugees that we had to take in simply because of the crisis in the Middle East.

MG: Do you think that that's leading to the numbers that I was quoting earlier from those polls suggesting that there is?

USHA GEORGE: To some extent they do. I've spoken to a large number of immigrants, especially from my own community who feel that you know we all came and worked really hard and we reached whereverwe are now. At the same time all these you know refugees who are brought into the country are provided by the government. They have no clue how much is provided, how long it's provided for.

MG: So an anti-refugee sentiment could come from immigrant communities themselves?

USHA GEORGE: Oh yeah absolutely. There is a possibility and there is at times mainly because they compared what they had to go through and then what is being supported. Not even understanding that that there is a difference in the way these people are brought in and why they are brought in. But the Syrian refugee crisis is an interesting case in point. This is where the civil society in Canada actually literally mobilized to support this people who are coming in. So I would say that there is probably not enough information out there character information out there about the contributions of the immigrants to the country.

MG: We just have a few seconds left. Do you worry, as our other two guests seemed to do, about where this is going to go as we get closer to the election?

USHA GEORGE: Yes this sentiment can be whipped up for the election. Definitely this is a progression for the election. We saw what happened in the US and that's kind of the same line that's being kind of promoted. Mainly because people know that that can attract towards. That the anti-immigrant sentiment can attract votes and that's yeah I'm worried about the tone of where we are going with this one.

MG: We'll talk more about this as we get closer to the election. Usha George, thank you to you.

USHA GEORGE: Okay. Thank you.

MG: Usha George is the director of the Centre for Immigration and Settlement at Ryerson University. She was with me in our Toronto studio. If you have any thoughts on this we'd love to hear from you. Twitter @TheCurrentCBC. You can reach us as well at cbc.ca/thecurrent and click on the Contact Us link. The CBC News is next and then the CBC original podcast, The Band Played On. It's about three Ottawa teachers and decades of abuse against their students. And it's not that nobody knew what was happening.

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VOICE: I said you have to do something about that because I think this man doesn't deserve to be around kids because he's sick.

MG: Despite that mother's determination and a warning to the school, the board and the other parents, got no action. You'll hear why, coming up on CBC Radio One. I'm Matt Galloway. This is the summer edition of The Current.

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The Band Plays On – Episode 2

MG: Hi. I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

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MG: Over the summer we've been listening to some of the CBC's best original podcasts. Today we continue the series, The Band Played On. It's based on an award-winning investigation by CBC reporter Julie Ireton. Julie discovered that over the course of five decades dozens of students were abused by three teachers. In this episode we catch up with a victim of the basketball coach Don Greenham. Franz Glaus says his mother found out that coach Greenham was abusing kids and she decided to do something about it. A warning: this story contains adult content and candid accounts of sexual abuse, which may disturb some listeners.

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JULIE IRETON: It was a summer evening at the cottage around the campfire. Fraz Glaus's younger cousins were telling a story about Don Greenham on a canoe trip. Now by this time Franz was no longer a student at the middle school and Greenham wasn't his teacher or coach anymore. Franz was now at Bell High School and he had dropped basketball, but he says his mom was like a lioness and she was disturbed by what she had overheard at the camp fire. Determined to find out what was going on with this teacher.

FRANZ GLAUS: Mom approached me later to ask me if it was true or if I knew anything about what she had just heard and I said oh yeah. Yeah Greenham actually grabbed me once. She goes why didn't you tell me? And then she was kind of beside herself because I can't believe that guy is there and he's been doing this all these years because if he did it to you that's three years ago and all the other kids that he's doing this to and so on. And she just, she just couldn't believe it. She said I'm going to have to do something about this. She pretty much got on a mission that was kind of her own thing. My mom her name is Madeleine.

[Buzzer sound].

MADELEINE GLAUS: Yes?

JULIE IRETON: Hi Madeleine. It's Julie Ireton. Madeleine Glaus moved from Ottawa to Montreal several years ago. She's now in her 80s. It's been four decades, but she still remembers Don Greenham. How are you today?

MADELEINE GLAUS: Not too bad. How are you?

JULIE IRETON: I'm well. Madeleine Glaus has short cropped grey hair. She lives in this first floor apartment with her youngest son and their dog Abby.

MADELEINE GLAUS: Abby quiet. Quiet Abby.

JULIE IRETON: She gets the dog settled and then we start talking about the 70s. That night she overheard a couple girls talking about a teacher at the middle school. They were at the cottage and the girl talking about the coach was her niece.

MADELEINE GLAUS: And they were at the fire and I was around. I don't know what I was doing and I hear what they were saying about Mr. Greenham and it's just you know I wasn't sure. I said am I hearing well or it's just. So I came close to the fire and I said what are you talking about girl? They were a little sort of embarrassed because they didn't really want me to know. I said well you better tell me because I heard enough. What's going on in there? And then they say Mr. Greenhan when he goes on canoe trip, he do this with the boy and he do that with the boy and even in school.

JULIE IRETON: Keep in mind this is several years after Rob Ferron's camping trip with Greenham. It's a different time, a different place, same teacher.

MADELEINE GLAUS: My belief is that man is sick, you know. It must have been very, how could I say that, humiliate to those two boy and all the boy. They must have had the trauma after that. Coming back from that canoe trip.

JULIE IRETON: I've spoken to 10 victims of Don Greenham and most don't feel comfortable speaking on the record, but they say they suspected that adults knew. None of them knew for sure until I found Madeleine Glaus.

MADELEINE GLAUS: You know he doesn't deserve to be around kid because he's sick. So I went to see the what you call the principal. I said you have to do something about that because I think this man doesn't deserve to be around kids and certainly not going in canoe trip with them where he's free to do whatever he wants.

JULIE IRETON: So at this point Greenham was a teacher at the middle school and he was still coaching basketball at Bell High. Madeleine Glaus wondered if he was hurting boys at both schools. So she warned the principal at the middle school.

MADELEINE GLAUS: So I said I don't care. The man have to go. And if you don't do anything about it, I'm going to go further. I'm not going to let it go. You know look at me. I'm not gonna let it go. I said I will go to the radio, to the newspaper and I'll talk about it and I'll expose the school and you. And you don't want that. So after I said I'm giving you one week. I gave him two weeks. I asked my niece is Mr. Greenham out of school? No, after a week. Two week, Mr. Greenham was not out of school. So I went to the school board of Carleton.

JULIE IRETON: Carleton School Board?

MADELEINE GLAUS: Yeah. And this I don't remember the name of the man that I talked to. And I told him exactly what I told him. And he seems to be shock.

JULIE IRETON: She urged the school board to investigate and then she tried to rally other parents. She figured everyone would be as outraged as she was, but none of the parents wanted to get involved.

MADELEINE GLAUS: They looked very embarrassing, they could hardly talk to me. Yeah.

JULIE IRETON: Do you think they just didn't believe you too?

MADELEINE GLAUS: Could be. I don't know. I don't know. I got my doubt about that. They probably didn't want to believe me.

JULIE IRETON: But she didn't give up. She went to the school board and demanded action. The lioness. And Madeleine Glaus felt she had been heard.

MADELEINE GLAUS: I trust the guy that I talked too. He looked so sincere.

JULIE IRETON: After that a couple of school board employees came to Bell High School and they pulled Franz out of his tenth grade class for a chat. Franz told them what Greenham had done to him in middle school. And Madeleine assumed the school board would take action.

MADELEINE GLAUS: You know, so I don't know. You know I'm not an expert in those kind of thing and I think I did as far as I could go.

JULIE IRETON: Did you ever consider going to the police at the time?

MADELEINE GLAUS: No. No that didn't come in my mind.

JULIE IRETON: But some 40 years later Madeleine Glaus did get a call from the police. They were investigating Don Greenham for historical sexual abuse. And they had heard that Madeleine might know something. That she might have information. The police investigation led to those 55 sex crime charges against Greenham in 2016. What did you think when you heard about the charges against Mr. Greenham so many years later, several decades later? What did you think? What came to your mind?

MADELEINE GLAUS: Disappointment. Total disappointment of the whole system.

JULIE IRETON: Many of the charges against Greenham were for crimes that happened years after she reported him to administrators.

MADELEINE GLAUS: After I have told him everything.

JULIE IRETON: Some of the 22 alleged victims were friends of Franz Glaus.

MADELEINE GLAUS: Its children. You know. You traumatize those kids for the rest of their life and those men are probably been traumatized too. And that's why they turned out like that. Who knows.

JULIE IRETON: Madeleine now knows nothing was done to stop Greenham's abuse of students, despite her efforts. She went to the principal. She went to the school board. She even confronted him face to face. Did you ever see Donald Greenham after that?

MADELEINE GLAUS: I met him on the street a couple months after. He was walking with his wife and he was sort of you know shocked when he saw me because he knew it's me. And I said ae you Mr. Greenham? I said sir you're a very sick man. You have to go in have help. And I said you should help him to have help

JULIE IRETON: You said that to his wife?

MADELEINE GLAUS: To his wife.

JULIE IRETON: What was the reaction?

MADELEINE GLAUS: No reaction at all. Nothing.

JULIE IRETON: Can you describe him? What did he look like?

MADELEINE GLAUS: He was very very tall. You know I'm so short, everybody's taller. And sort of this square face. Something like that. He had blue eyes. He didn't look. You know.

JULIE IRETON: He didn't look like somebody you should be afraid of?

MADELEINE GLAUS: He looks likeaA good man really and his wife too. They look like good people.

FRANZ GLAUS: It's amazing my mom has made me very very proud over the years in many ways. I think I can remember her saying to us all those decades ago how cowardly people were. Just what lack of courage people had and how they were willing to let just great offences take place because of their cowardice.

JULIE IRETON: Franz Glaus was taught by both the coach Don Greenham and Bob Clarke, the music teacher. He was preyed upon by both teachers.

FRANZ GLAUS: I know. Well it's just heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking that kids and their innocence are preyed upon by such predators and that such predators are given such cover.

JULIE IRETON: A couple years after Greenham grabbed fronds he was playing lead trumpet in Bob Clark's band after band practice one night. Clark offered friends a ride home.

FRANZ GLAUS: All these school buses were gone. There was no other way home. He offered to give me a ride home and it was cool because he gave a little notice a little yellow Lotus to cedar and said we're driving home and he you know it's a sports car. So wrote down low on the ground and we're just it's pretty tight in there but it means he's got his hand on a stick shift in his hand just wandered to my knee and he gave me kind of this little kind of underneath rock and I'm like What. And I move my leg over and looked at him weird and that was the end of it right there. He was testing me and I had no idea I had no clue that Paul had any of these proclivities. None until he tried this and said you know these guys I mean they had a way about him that I didn't it protects them from kids blowing the whistle on him. They had a ray about a mile and I looked back I wonder what is it. What is it it kept me from saying or doing anything or saying anything to my parents at all. And I don't know. I can't answer that except that I wasn't grown up yet.

JULIE IRETON: And Franz Glaus isn't the only Bell High grad to be preyed upon by both teachers. I have found evidence of another, but the second man doesn't want to talk to me. Do you suspect at all that Greenham and Clarke had anything to do with each other and the crimes that they?

FRANZ GLAUS: No, none what so ever.

JULIE IRETON: There is nothing that points to Don Greenham and Bob Clarke operating together to abuse teens. In fact it doesn't appear that they were even friends, but there are connections. The gym was just down the hall from the music room at Bell High and both men abuse teens around the same time in the same place and the administration was the same. Both these teachers worked under the same principles in the same school board and we now know that some of the people in charge did hear complaints about both Don Greenham and Bob Clarke.

[Phone ringing]

JULIE IRETON: Okay. Peter are you there?

PETER HAMER: I am.

JULIE IRETON: You can hear me? How you doing?

PETER HAMER: I'm good. How are you doing today?

JULIE IRETON: I'm good. I'm good.

JULIE IRETON: I've been in regular contact with Peter Hamer. He's the one who first went to police about the music teacher Bob Clark seems to be very easy with this. This investigation trying to get these documents so he's also been searching for more information about his abuser. We know Clark wasn't the only one getting away with abusing students over the years. Not the only case where warnings were not heeded.

PETER HAMER: And it's an I guess I just don't understand. How do you let somebody stay in that you know when there was a complaint and and it's you know when you think about it you've got a vice principal.

JULIE IRETON: Peter's been connecting with former students over social media, students of both the music teacher and the coach and some claim to have had similar encounters.

PETER HAMER: I was an interesting conversation because I just responded in a message saying do we know each other and then he just responded with Bell High. He says I think you were ahead of me by a year or two. And I just responded saying some of those messages are difficult to receive. He said I was 15 when it started. I said to him Are you telling me that Bob Clark abused you too. And he said yes. And he's never told anybody. And his story is devastating.

JULIE IRETON: All of the stories are.

PETER HAMER: You know we spent a couple of hours going back and forth.

JULIE IRETON: Peter has also talked to a man who was abused by the coach in 1976. That was a few years after Madeleine glows went to administrators station.

PETER HAMER: It was a mostly one sided conversation.

JULIE IRETON: This man has another unsettling story set on a canoe trip with Don Greenham and teen boys.

PETER HAMER: It sounds like he didn't really make it that far out of high school and he's had a significantly difficult life.

JULIE IRETON: Yeah.

PETER HAMER: He's talked about you know wanting to take his life. He's talked about you know his poor health social skills you know being a loner you know surviving through alcohol. He talked about wishing to die and it's just sad. You know he gets flashbacks tries to bury it and it never works. And I mean I'm so thankful that he reached out to me but I'm so devastated that we found another victim and it's just it's so sad.

JULIE IRETON: I'm worried about Peter. He's taken on a role of therapist for these survivors and it's taking a toll.

PETER HAMER: I just I feel horrible.

JULIE IRETON: When a person in authority takes advantage of a kid trust is broken and that is hard to fix.

PETER HAMER: It's fascinating what it does to your head. You know and it's the combination of who he was from the perspective of being an authority figure and where you are in your development and your age and it's horrible. Yeah it crazy.

JULIE IRETON: The coach, Don Greenham, he taught for 35 years and retired with his reputation intact and then.

REPORTER: Good evening It's 29 degrees at 4:30.

JULIE IRETON: Greenham was arrested and charged in August 2016.

REPORTER: A retired Ottawa teacher and coach accused of historic sexual assault was released on bail today. 73-year-old Donald Greenham is charged with 14 counts of gross indecency and indecent assault.

JULIE IRETON: Police had recently charged two other teachers with sexual assault offending. All three had worked at Bell High School.

VOICE 1: He's of course presumed innocent. We're anxious to get all the disclosure information and begin to defend him on the charges.

VOICE 2: As a condition of his release Greenham is ordered to stay away from children under the age of 16.

JULIE IRETON: Dozens of Don Greenham's former students came forward. They accused him of sexual touching masturbation and oral sex. The abuse often involved multiple kids at the same time. In some cases Greenham coached them to molest each other.

VOICE 3: Do you have anything to say about the charges laid against you?

VOICE 4: Outside the courthouse. Graham and his family wouldn't speak to reporters. Lawyer Sean Maye says they're standing by him for any felonies.

JULIE IRETON: But the coach will not be held accountable. Not by a court. Don Greenham is dead. According to the Ottawa Citizen newspaper, he died of an apparent heart attack at age 75. It happened at his home in March 2018, just months before his trial was set to begin, but victims are still asking why wasn't he stopped. The only people who might have those answers are the people who were in charge at the time. Shortly after Greenham died I asked his former employer for information in the article Carleton District School Board told me it has no record of concerns regarding Greenham's behaviour. But that's not the story I heard from a former principal. Back in 1978, Mike Vise was Don Greenham's boss at the middle school. This was years after Franz Glaus' mother Madeleine Glaus complained about the coach to a different principal.

[Phone ringing]

JULIE IRETON: Hi there. Is this Mr. Vise? The retired principal is reluctant to speak to me and he doesn't want me to broadcast his voice. Mike Vise is in his 80s and he's concerned about his memory. It's Julie Ireton calling. I see that you called me back. Sorry I missed your call. But Mike Vise says what he tells me is on the record. He says in 1978 a student complained about Don Greenham's inappropriate behaviour on yet another canoe trip. And and do you remember the nature of the complaint that the boy had talked to you about? He won't give me specifics, but he remembers he spoke to Greenham and he also reported it to a school board official. Soon after that Don Greenham was working at a different school. And just to confirm so Greenham was moved at that time because of the complaint from that boy? Vise says he believes so, but he can't be sure. Okay. You weren't in on it like it was the board that made that decision? And the school board has no record of any disciplinary action. Greenham kept teaching middle school and coaching at Bell High. Two of the teachers who abuse students were moved. Both men had been reported to authorities.

[Sounds atschool]

JULIE IRETON: This is Sir Robert Borden High School. It's not too far from Bell High. And it's commencement day. The school is open to parents and the public.

MARC LEACH: Smells the same.

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach is my tour guide. He was a student here between 1988 and 1993. This is my class. I'm in here somewhere.

JULIE IRETON: Photos hang in the hall outside the music room.

MARC LEACH: That's Clarke right there.

JULIE IRETON: It's easy to spot the music teacher. Bob Clarke is smiling broadly. He's surrounded by students on all sides.

MARC LEACH: I see all my friends, so it's probably with them somewhere.

JULIE IRETON: Bob Clarke has been accused of horrible crimes against his students, but more than two years after the charges, photos of this teacher are still hanging on these walls.

MARC LEACH: He would put the talls guys in the back, so I'm probably back here somewhere.

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach stands at 6 foot 3 inches tall. When he started high school in 1988, he was already taller than most of his peers. Clarke moved here from Bell High and that was after Peter Hamer complained about the music teacher to his principal.

MARC LEACH: So he had a whole auditorium there and the music department was down here.

JULIE IRETON: Like other victims, Marc Leach has questions.

We have a long lonely hallway.

JULIE IRETON: We don't know for sure why Clarke was moved here from Bell High in 1986. The school board is still refusing to share files or give answers. All we know is it coincided with Peter Hamer's complaints to his principal.

MARC LEACH: This is where all the practicing was and all the bands.

JULIE IRETON: So there's no windows in here.

MARC LEACH: No windows. No other teachers. The doors are closed. It's a soundproof room. Right. So he could do and say anything he wanted to really.

JULIE IRETON: What happened to you, did it happen in here?

MARC LEACH: Yeah. Right there. His door was closed.

JULIE IRETON: His story is too familiar.

MARC LEACH: And I was. Sorry.

JULIE IRETON: It's okay.

MARC LEACH: It's so strange.

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach was trapped in Clarke's music room.

MARC LEACH: So yeah the door was closed and he came up to me and was asking about a girl that I become friendly with and he the door was closed and he cornered me right here and he put his hand in my groin and was saying things to me and he was so close to me. He was like spitting on my face you know. I was trying to pretend that didn't happen and I was trying to figure out what he was doing and before I knew it it was over and I don't know how or why, but he went one way and I went the other and that was the end of it.

JULIE IRETON: Does it make you uncomfortable to be here?

MARC LEACH: No. No it makes me uncomfortable to think about that, but I had to like mentally prepare myself for this. You don't realize that I was a kid. It's not me. You know. But I had good times here. I had great times in the school. I had great times in this room and like the music program and everything it helped me. You know it helped me come out of my shell and then it just like turned to shit. Such a strange thought, it's like revisiting a grave. It's like the same feeling looking at a tombstone.

MG: We've been listening to the CBC podcast, The Band Played On by reporter Julie Ireton. We'll bring you more of that story in about two minutes time. Stick around. My name is Matt Galloway. You're listening to the summer edition of The Current.

[Music]

MG: I'm Matt Galloway. You're listening to the summer edition of The Current. And back now to the CBC original podcast, The Band Played On. CBC reporter Julie Ireton continues to investigate who knew what and when in the five decades that three Ottawa high school teachers preyed on their teenage students. In this segment she tours another high school looking for answers. And a warning, this story contains adult content and candid accounts of sexual abuse, which may disturb some listeners.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIE IRETON: In the main foyer of Sir Robert Borden high school there's a wall of framed photos. Headshots of principals. There are several black and white pictures, all of men. Then as the years go on, the photos switch to colour and the first coloured photo is a woman Marcia Reynolds. This would have been the principal you probably remember, is it?

MARC LEACH: Yeah I remember her. I dealt more with the vice principal, but I certainly had interactions with her.

JULIE IRETON: So that's Marcia Reynolds. 88 to 94. I've discovered she was the person in charge when Bob Clarke was pushed out of teaching in 1992.

MARC LEACH: I don't want to get her in trouble or anything. I just want to know the truth like why was he let go? Why did they force him to leave? What was the ultimate thing that you know someone said or reported or whatever. Why is it such a secret?

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach didn't tell anyone about Clarke when he was in high school. But he thinks someone at his school must have. Why else would Bob Clarke be forced to resign in 1992?

MARC LEACH: That's the puzzling part is it could have been one of my friends it could have been someone else.

JULIE IRETON: All Leach knows is that back in 92 there was no investigation no help for students like him who Clark had touched. He thinks this former principal Marcy Reynolds could have answers. Where's the line where you called authorities to let them know. Like if you're firing someone for sexual misconduct or treating kids in a sexual way or whatever it was would you not also let the police know.

JULIE IRETON: I've been looking for teachers people who might have known Bob Clarke.

DIANE LANGLOIS: I brought a yearbook so we can go back memory lane.

JULIE IRETON: Diane Langlois sits in her immaculate living room.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Mine are all packed away.

JULIE IRETON: She has wavy auburn hair. She's wearing a blue scarf and gold bracelets. They jingle when she talks of their hands. Langlois taught at Bell High School for 28 years.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Yeah my retired with 33 and a half years. So you know I'm going to say 28, a lot of years there. Loved it at Bell. Absolutely was in heaven at Bell.

JULIE IRETON: She doesn't associate her experience at Bell with the grey clouds that moved in in 2016. That's when three teachers were charged with sex crimes against some 30 former students. So when you heard about the charges what happened?

DIANE LANGLOIS: I cried. Quietly cried and I said what did I miss? That's what I said. What did I miss?

JULIE IRETON: When it comes to the charges against Bob Clarke, she wasn't surprised.

DIANE LANGLOIS: No. No I wasn't surprised at all. But I didn't have any proof of allegations. All I had was the information when I was a new young teacher in there. In the school a student came to me one morning 6:30 and I'm going to use railing at me. Why aren't you do anything? And she just went on. You know he's doing, he's hurting people he's getting away with things he shouldn't be doing things. And I said her What is she doing she says is hurting students. You know he's taking things from them. She never ever ever used the word sexual. But she says he's doing things to them. And I said I'll. I'll deal with this I promise you I will.

JULIE IRETON: It was the late 1970s Clarke's early days of teaching.

DIANE LANGLOIS: I was really upset. I was emotionally upset and I told him.

JULIE IRETON: Langlois says she went to a school administrator.

DIANE LANGLOIS: Back up the clock, I'm in my early early 20s as well. And this was a whole new thing. But I knew it had to be dealt with. And I went. He said leave it with me. I will investigate. I will get to it. He promised me. And I approached him several times he said don't worry it's been dealt with.

JULIE IRETON: Langlois always believed the person she told did something. But the fact is abuse continued. At this point I have evidence that on three different occasions a school staff member was alerted to Bob Clark's bad behaviour. Diane Langlois told a school administrator in the late 1970s.

DIANE LANGLOIS: He said leave it with me. I will investigate I will get to it.

JULIE IRETON: Victim John Cody told teachers around the same time.

JOHN CODY: They knew. They knew and I knew they knew. I told teachers too.

JULIE IRETON: Victim Peter Hamer told the principal in 1986.

PETER HAMER: I told him about the hugs that he had wanted to take pictures of me in them in the back room.

JULIE IRETON: So what exactly was done with that information?

JOHN BEATTY: Hello.

JULIE IRETON: Hi there. Is this Mr. Beatty?

Yes it is.

JULIE IRETON: Hi it's Julie Ireton calling in from CBC.

Hi Julie.

JULIE IRETON: How are you?

Good.

JULIE IRETON: John Beatty is a retired principal now. Now were you a principal at Bell High School at one point?

JOHN BEATTY: Yes I was.

JULIE IRETON: Okay. He was in charge of the school when both Bob Clarke and Don Greenham were there. He's agreed to talk to me, but only over the phone. Do you have any memory of of working with Bob Clarke or Donald Greenham.

JOHN BEATTY: Yes.

JULIE IRETON: Do you? OK. In fact John Beatty was a principal at Bell High School between 1975 and 1980. He was one of the principals during the years Don Greenham was coaching basketball at Bell. Many of the charges against the coach stemmed from that time. And did you ever catch wind of some of the things that were going on there?

JOHN BEATTY: No none whatever. I simply never heard a complaint from students.

JULIE IRETON: Beatty was also Bob Clarke's boss. Tell me what your impressions of Mr. Clarke were at the time.

JOHN BEATTY: That he was difficult to work with from time to time, but that he was a very talented music teacher and just ran a marvellous extracurricular program.

JULIE IRETON: Yeah I've heard a lot about his success. He won a lot of awards as well, right?

JOHN BEATTY: Yes he did. Yes.

JULIE IRETON: And why was he difficult?

JOHN BEATTY: He was quite demanding in terms of resources. He wasn't always super cooperative with other staff members. You know he was it was very much a Bob Clarke operation.

JULIE IRETON: The problems with Bob Clarke went well beyond cooperating with colleagues. And one disturbing story from Beatty's time illustrates that. I spoke to a former Bell music student after he talked to police. He says In 1977 his father went to former Principal John Beatty with concerns about Clarke. Clarke was paying too much attention to his son, getting too close.

JOHN BEATTY: Yeah. That is correct. It did not come in the form of a complaint. It came in the form of a visit from Mr.

JULIE IRETON: We can't name this person.

JOHN BEATTY: Concerned about Bob having a little too much to do with.

JULIE IRETON: I have spoken to him, but his name is still protected by a publication ban.

JOHN BEATTY: And I spoke to Bob about the issue. Mr. did not want any further action taken. He just wanted to report it and get the concerns stopped. So I don't regard, I didn't regard this as an outright complaint and I had the feeling that what he wanted to do was was just put a stop to whatever was happening.

JULIE IRETON: Here's what was happening with Clarke. I found this information in court documents. As band leader he had access to kids addresses in his files. One night Bob Clarke went to the student's home. He looked in the teen's basement bedroom window. The boy took off his clothes, got into bed and then he saw Clarke lurking in his window. In another incident Bob Clarke rubbed the same student and masturbated in front of him, but it's unclear how much this kid told his father at the time or how much his father told principal Beatty. Back in 1977, John Beatty says the victim's father was.

JOHN BEATTY: Was fairly vague about what his concerns were, but he just indicated that Bob's behaviour was a little bit out of line with what would normally expect expect from the teacher.

JULIE IRETON: And so what were you able to do about that at the time?

JOHN BEATTY: I spoke to Bob and indicated that it had to stop and to the best of my knowledge it did.

JULIE IRETON: Okay. And were there ever any other allegations that came to you from any other students?

JOHN BEATTY: No there weren't.

JULIE IRETON: John Beaty was principal at Bell High until 1980 when he was promoted to another job with the school board. He says it was several years before he heard from Bob Clarke again. In 1992 Beatty received a call.

JOHN BEATTY: A very unusual phone call from from Bob Clarke saying that he was in some difficulty and thought he should resign. And I must admit I encouraged him to resign, but he just talked about difficulties.

JULIE IRETON: And you didn't know the nature of why he was, like why he would think that he needed to resign?

JOHN BEATTY: No.

JULIE IRETON: The school board has told me it launched an investigation into Bob Clark around this time. And I'm just wondering if you were made aware of of what the investigation was in 1992?

JOHN BEATTY: Not that I can remember. No.

JULIE IRETON: The school board confirmed Clarke was being investigated because of sexually inappropriate comments. The board says before the investigation was concluded Clarke did resign, but that wasn't until 1992. We now know this abusive behaviour dates back to at least the early 1970s.

JOHN BEATTY: One of the things that worries me a little bit in this situation like this is that the questions come from the point of view of the values of 2018 and you know things were were different 25 30 years ago at least in the point of of of teacher misbehaviour. There was a very different set of legalities and a very different set of processes.

JULIE IRETON: As far back as the mid 1960s in Canada, there was a legal duty to report suspected child abuse principals teachers and doctors were among the professionals who held that responsibility. But that duty is much more clear today than in John Beatty's time.

JOHN BEATTY: I would say that I probably wasn't clear on that. It was it was only later that for instance that the duty to report to a Children's Aid Society was Swan became something that was very very firm in people's minds.

PETER HAMER: That's bullshit like I'd like to try and be sort of understanding and forgiving, but I'm struggling with that.

JULIE IRETON: Peter Hamer and I meet in a park, not far from Bell High. I think you would have been principal at the time.

JOHN BEATTY: Yeah. That is correct.

JULIE IRETON: Peter shakes his head and clenches his jaw when he hears Beatty's recollection of the father coming to him in 1977.

JOHN BEATTY: I don't regard it with regard to this as an outright complaint.

PETER HAMER: I struggle with that because it just that's not how you operate an organization. You don't call staff out for vague terms.

JULIE IRETON: Peter just doesn't buy Beatty's memory of that conversation as a vague comment.

PETER HAMER: The fact of the matter is he remembers it from the 70s and again how many conversations with how many parents do you have over the course of a career. To me it doesn't reconcile I've had millions of conversations with people and I don't remember 99 percent of them right. But the ones I remember are the ones that are impactful but Beatty told me he was not aware of anything more going on.

JULIE IRETON: That doesn't satisfy Peter.

PETER HAMER: Yeah. You know at some point somebody has got to say something because there's no question that somebody knew.

JULIE IRETON: There's another principal Peter and I need to talk about. His name was Pat Carol. The guy Peter went to in 1986. The one Peter told that Clarke wanted to take naked pictures of him for marks. I've been trying to find that principal for months. I googled, nothing came up. No luck. And then one day I googled again and I found his obituary.

PETER HAMER: So I read it and I started I started crying. I just because I thought he and I know the truth because it's you know he was the adult at the time. He is the guy who said what you want me to do? He's the guy who told me okay he won't be at Bell next year. Like it would've been something he would have remembered and we can't ask him now. I feel like I should have done this 20 years ago cause it's hard to hold people accountable when they don't remember or they're dead, right.

JULIE IRETON: Sometimes it does feel like we're chasing ghosts. I've crossed one of the principals off my list but I'm still searching for others. When I went to Sir Robert Borden High School with Marc Leach we saw those photos of principals. Marcia Reynolds, the first woman principal at the high school, stood out. Reynolds was in charge when Clarke was finally pushed out of teaching and resigned in 1992. What led to that push? What exactly did he do? What does she know? I find her phone number and I give her a call.

[Phone rings]

JULIE IRETON: Marcia Reynolds answers the phone on the first ring. I introduce myself. Were you a principal at at Sir Robert Borden? She tells me she was. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? I ask her if she remembers Bob Clarke. Reynolds says she does not. She tells me she has a poor memory. Bob Clarke was the music teacher at Sir Robert Borden. I believe the same year you were principal. But she does list the other schools where she was principal. Then all the sudden Reynolds says sorry , she has to go. And she hangs up. Oh can ask you a few?

[Hangs up]

JULIE IRETON: Is this Marcia? Hi there. My name is is Julie Ireton.I did call you back in the spring. When I called her back several weeks later Marcia Reynolds tells me again she doesn't remember those days. I just wanted to ask you.

[Hangs up].

JULIE IRETON: Hello.

[Dial tone]

JULIE IRETON: She abruptly hangs up. But I find someone who does remember someone with a clear recollection of Bob Clarke and Marcia Reynolds.

TREVOR FENTON: Hi Julie.

TREVOR FENTON: Hi. How are you?

TREVOR FENTON: I'm doing well, thanks.

JULIE IRETON: Trevor Fenton was in band at Sir Robert Borden High School in the late 1980s.

TREVOR FENTON: I'm general counsel at a small multinational.

JULIE IRETON: He's a lawyer working in the UK. In 1987, Trevor Fenton started playing trombone in the school band. He remembers Bob Clarke being a bit of a goof.

TREVOR FENTON: I mean if I was to put it in sort of teenage terms, people thought he was a bit of a geek and a bit of a loser. But they learned a lot from him musically.

JULIE IRETON: Trevor Fenton remembers Clark targeting boys and he'd find ways to touch students like standing in the music room door.

TREVOR FENTON: The front of his body would be sort of into the middle of the doorway and sometimes you had no choice or he'd position himself so you had to sort of squirm to get past him.

JULIE IRETON: But it was comments just before a music competition that were the final straw for Fenton. He was just 15-years-old at the time.

TREVOR FENTON: He said yeah you can really feel the tension around here. And he asks me in front of about five people, so did you masturbate last night?

JULIE IRETON: That 15-year-old wasn't afraid to push back.

TREVOR FENTON: It might have been more than once. I told him to fuck off right in front of the entire class and I was basically daring him to send me to the principal.

JULIE IRETON: At that time Fenton's own dad was also a principal. In fact he was in charge over at Bell High School where Clarke had taught just a few years before. Trevor Fenton finally told his dad what was going on.

TREVOR FENTON: I just said you know what enough's enough. I just wanted to stop. So I went and I spoke to my father first.

JULIE IRETON: His parents encouraged him to go to the principal, Marcia Reynolds. This was in 1989 three years before Clarke was pushed out of teaching.

TREVOR FENTON: I'd say you know she was very attentive and she made it clear that this was going to stop.

JULIE IRETON: But exactly how it would stop would be left up to Trevor Fenton. For the second time in this story the power was given to a teenager.

TREVOR FENTON: She. She put that decision kind of in my hands and she kind of she asked me flat out as I recall whether this was something that she wants that I wanted to press a formal complaint about and there I am 15 years old having to make what felt to me like I was making a decision about a man's career the livelihood that his family enjoys as a result of his career.

JULIE IRETON: In 1989 there was no documented complaint against Clarke. Trevor Fenton agreed that the principal would just quietly have a chat with the music teacher.

TREVOR FENTON: As I recall she said essentially I'll take him to the woodshed do it quietly get him to stop that behaviour.

JULIE IRETON: He has no idea what Reynolds actually said to Clark but this all happened three years before Clark left teaching. I'm still missing a piece of the puzzle. What did Clarke do to make Reynolds finally want to get rid of him in 1992? How bad did it have to get? Throughout this investigation. I've heard assumptions pronouncements. It was a different time. That's just how they handled things. Teachers had different relationships with students and there were different values or rules or laws. That's just how they handled things, but there are school administrators from back then who say that is not the way things were supposed to be handled.

ANNE JONES: You have the legal obligation.

JULIE IRETON: Anne Jones is one of them.

ANNE JONES: If a student comes to you and says something is happening with the teacher or somebody in authority or anybody for that matter whether it's parents or an older brother or sister that you have a duty to report you have no right to question it. You have to believe it. You ere on the side of believing the child as opposed to making your own judgment.

JULIE IRETON: Anne Jones spent her entire career in education. She's not afraid to speak out and she never really fit the stereotype.

ANNE JONES: I'm small. I'm only 5 foot 2.

JULIE IRETON: She climbed from vice principal to principal to superintendent at a time when women weren't typically in those jobs. She's now 76 and retired living in Yarmouth Nova Scotia. And over the course of her career end Jones saw a lot of changes back in the 1970s when she started working in Ottawa schools. Things were different.

ANNE JONES: It was an odd time because the men were in charge. A principal was omnipotent. Like a principal was the ruler of his own domain.

JULIE IRETON: Anne Jones worked for the Ottawa Board of Education. Now it was right next door to the Carleton School Board and that's where the three accused teachers worked. Back in her day Jones was well aware of Bell High school's award-winning music teacher Bob Clarke, even though he taught in the neighbouring board.

ANNE JONES: Because you know I understood how important he was and why they would want to protect him. It was the culture of the day. Bell was always top in sports, top in music and that was really important to them.

JULIE IRETON: At first Anne Jones heard innuendo about Bob Clarke and then some time in the 1980s a parent got in touch with her looking for advice. The woman's son was in Bob Clarke's music class.

ANNE JONES: And I talked to this parent and. I told her she should. Go back and talk to the principal. And tell them what was going on and she was very very reluctant to do that because she had actually heard other parents getting nowhere. She was quite frustrated. So she did. I may be remembering this wrong but I can't remember whether they decided to move their child or the suggestion was that the child be moved. But I know eventually that her child was moved out of the school to another school.

JULIE IRETON: So sometimes a kid had to change schools. Other times a teacher moved.

ANNE JONES: When we had difficulty with teachers as well. We'd have a staffing meeting at the end of each year. And at the staffing meeting. We wouldn't sort of a list of teachers that needed to be moved. And. Sometimes they were called typhoid Mary's or typhoid Rodgers but they also referred to it as the The Dance of the lemons. The Dance of the lemons and the idea was that everybody had to sort of take their turn at taking one of these difficult teachers or a teacher that had caused some issue or another. So as opposed to just dealing with it upfront they moved them.

JULIE IRETON: But the dance of the lemons is not ancient history. In the U.S. they call it passing the trash. A 2013 study by researchers at the University of Virginia found sexually abusive teachers were moved to other schools because administrators feared legal liability and tarnished reputations. In Canada, Toronto Star investigations in the last two years show problematic and sometimes abusive teachers were still being moved without proper reporting and this is an Ontario, Canada's biggest province. Former students know the so-called dance of the lemons can have a profound impact.

PETER HAMER: I came forward. Maybe I was you know the straw that broke the camel's back. There was just this is a bad guy and I really want him gone because I want my brother to be safe.

JULIE IRETON: But Peter Hamer had no idea his teacher's moved to another school would put others in danger.

MARC LEACH: Authorities there knew, right? Peter told them and they put it under the carpet or shuffled papers or whatever they did and sent him to my school where he did it to me and maybe others.

JULIE IRETON: Marc Leach encountered Bob Clarke at his school, Sir Robert Borden. That's where Clarke was moved after Peter complained.

MARC LEACH: Peter came up to me crying, apologizing because he thought it was his fault for sending him from Bell to where I was and he was blaming himself for what happened to me.

PETER HAMER: It was really very sad because I thought nothing that I did stopped Bob Clarke and I'd always thought that maybe I had a little peace and that wasn't the case.

MARC LEACH: We're victims we're not responsible and it's like I was put in a room with a predator and nobody was protecting me.

[Music]

JULIE IRETON: The Band Played On.

MG: We've been listening to The Band Played On, a CBC investigative podcast by reporter Julie Ireton and producer Kristen Nelson. If you have your own story to share as you've been listening to this, you can get in touch with Julie Ireton through the website cbc.ca/thebandplayedon. Tomorrow, Julie introduces you to the third predator, another music teacher who preyed on teen girls. And if you'd like to hear all the episodes in this podcast, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Music]

MG: That will do it for The Current for today. Q is up next on CBC Radio One. When I say Tessa and Scott, pretty good chance you think of Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir, Canadian ice dancing champions. They have fans around the world. Today on Q they will speak about their new and expanded book, Tessa and Scott: Our Journey From Childhood Dream to Gold. That's coming up on Q with guest host, Ali Hassan, right after the CBC News. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening to the summer edition of The Current. We'll talk to you tomorrow.

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Aug. 27, 2019 episode transcript

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