Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for August 16, 2019

Hosts: Nil Köksal and Karen Gordon

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello I'm Nil Koksal.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

NK: Troubled state. Her colleague is detained along with hundreds of others in Kashmir since the Indian government revoked the region's semi-autonomous status -- now one Kashmiri politician is hoping to fight the law's repeal at India's highest court.

KG: Utter relief. A seventh-generation Quebec dairy farmer welcomes the federal government's plan to compensate families like his but says the trade agreements that make it necessary shouldn't have been made to begin with.

NK: Granular detail. No one can remember what really happened better than she can -- which is why an Ohio man designed a video game narrated by his 93-year-old grandmother based on her memories of the Second World War.

KG: Growing stale. Food couriers in Toronto cast their votes on whether to unionized days ago -- but those votes will remain sealed until the province's Labour Relations Board rules on whether they can be considered employees.

NK: Nemo finding. It's long been thought that making exotic species appear cute in films and television causes an increase in demand for them as pets -- but a new study says the so-called "Nemo effect" is pure fantasy.

KG: And nihilistic license. Ordering a vanity plate that read "null" seemed like a funny idea to a California systems analyst until it backfired into thousands of dollars in charges. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio with a lot on its plate.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'Murder of democracy': Kashmiri activist plans Supreme Court challenge against India

Kashmir Latest

Guest: Shehla Rashid

KG: It's now 11 days since the Indian government made the announcement it was removing the special status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. The territory had been semi-autonomous for more than 70 years. But earlier this month the central Indian government revoked Article 370 of the constitution effectively tightening India's control over the region. A blackout was imposed immediately blocking landline, mobile, and internet communication to the outside world. And with more than 500 people reportedly detained to prevent unrest, many human rights watchers are concerned about the true situation in the state. Shehla Rashid is a Kashmiri activist and politician with the recently formed Jammu and Kashmir People's Movement Party. We reached her in Delhi.

NK: Ms. Rashid I want to ask first how your friends and family back in Kashmir are doing?

SHEHLA RASHID: It is very difficult at the moment to get in touch. For example I have spoken to my mother only twice since the 4th of August. I have spoken to my team members -- again -- only twice because they are able to reach a phone line with great difficulty. They have to go to the police station or the district administration office and they have to queue up. And by the time that they get to their turn, there are already people behind them asking them to hurry up so it's a very limited conversation -- you cannot discuss much of consequence. From what we hear, people can still get access to food, baby food, etc -- but with great difficulty because there is a curfew-like situation. People are being kept inside their homes. People are not being allowed to visit the neighboring village, you know -- so that they don't organize. So it's like a mass imprisonment. It's like an open-air prison where people are just allowed to move only if they provide a damn good reason to move.

NK: You've publicly condemned the Indian government's decision to revoke Article 370 but you're taking things further than that.

SR: Yes. We are taking matters to the Supreme Court because we believe that it is an unconstitutional order that the government has issued. It is illegal, it is unethical, and undemocratic -- those are other aspects of it. But on the face of it, it is illegal. The government cannot do this because there are constitutional provisions that are safeguards -- that are there to ensure that Article 370 is not simply overturned. When the state of Jammu and Kashmir acceded to India it was a sovereign state and a decision a treaty or some terms of agreement between two sovereign states must be respected. I think that it makes India look really really bad.

NK: The Indian government has argued that they are abiding by constitutional law. What's your response?

SR: Well we'll see to it. We have a very strong petition drafted and we are going to court very soon. We believe that the government is in really poor legal standing. You know they have to lock down an entire population. They have lock down the leaders, cut off the communication, arrest journalists -- that just shows that we -- our position is strong and the government's position is weak. They are not confident of their own decisions.

NK: In the Indian mainstream press and on social media many non-Kashmiri Indians are celebrating this move. They say it strengthens India and that it doesn't stand to reason that to have states that can enjoy certain freedoms and exemptions when others do not.

SR: India is a very diverse country and there are thousands -- literally thousands -- of different cultures and languages and culinary traditions. So I don't think that India can be ruled according to one specific arrangement. There are arrangements like this that are in place -- in other states like Karnataka, the state of Nagaland -- both of these states, they have their own flags. And there are provisions like Article 370 in place in many places including tribals -- so in tribal areas, non-tribals cannot buy land for example. So this is meant to preserve the ecological balance, the cultural sensitivities of certain places which acceded to India on different arrangements. So those terms must be respected. And as far as celebrations are concerned, there is nothing to celebrate about the murder of democracy and the murder of constitution. There is nothing to celebrate about it.

NK: That phrase that you just uttered "murdering the constitution" -- it has caused problems it appears for the other prominent member of the Jammu and Kashmir People's Movement Party -- Shah Faesal. He was reportedly arrested for speaking out -- for saying that phrase. Are you worried about retaliation?

SR: Yes. But you know that is not the point right now. This is about a much larger cause. If we don't act, if we don't speak up, thousands of people are going to feel that they are without any representation and they might hit the streets and they are hitting the streets as we speak in Kashmir and they are getting shot at, they are getting injured, they are getting blinded because the security forces are using disproportionate violence. The government should actually allow opposition leaders -- activists -- to speak out. Now India cannot expect to call itself a democracy -- India cannot expect to you know rub shoulders with the U.N. SC league while engaging in this kind of barbarism back home. How can one political party which is the ruling party decide what is good for people and put all other opposition leaders in jail? That's not how a democracy functions.

NK: What do you know about Mr. Faesal's whereabouts now?

SR: We know very little. We know what is in the public domain because it's not possible to physically verify. He was initially under house arrest but apparently he's been shifted to the Centaur Hotel where all the other political leaders are being detained as well. And that's all we know so far. We have not been able to get in touch with his family because of the communication blackout. If the communication were to restore then we can get in touch with his family and see if they need any kind of legal help, if they want to move the courts then we can do that only when the communication is restored.

NK: The U.N. Security Council has been meeting for the first time in decades on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir behind closed doors. What sense does that meeting give you -- does it give you hope?

SR: Yes. You know it is considered very unpatriotic in India to talk about international intervention on Kashmir but when such gross abuse of human rights takes place it is no longer an internal matter. You know sections of the Indian media have been you know very very muted about what has been happening in Kashmir. There is a censorship. People are afraid of Modi. They don't want to talk about him because you know they are subject to Modi's jurisdiction. But at least the international powers -- the international community, other countries, the U.N. Security Council -- they are not subject to his arbitrary laws and his you know rule -- direct rule. So yes, our only hope right now is the international community which can call a spade a spade. India is trying to get away with what it's doing in Kashmir by implying -- by suggesting -- that this is a way of fighting terrorism. This is not a way of fighting terrorism. This is terrorism. And this will -- if anything -- encourage more terrorism in Kashmir.

NK: Mr. Rashid thank you so much for your time.

SR: Thank you very much.

KG: Shehla Rashid is a Kashmiri activist and politician with the Jammu and Kashmir People's Movement Party. We reached her in Delhi, India.

[Music]

Dairy Farmer

Guest: Angus MacKinnon

KG: Dairy farmers across Canada who have been worried about the potential impact of recent free trade deals may rest a little easier tonight. That's because the federal government is promising them 1.75 billion dollars in compensation for concessions made in those trade agreements. Agriculture Minister Marie-Claude Bibeau made the announcement this morning in Quebec -- home to nearly half this country's dairy farmers. Angus MacKinnon is among them. He's a seventh generation farmer milking 150 cows in Coaticook, Quebec. That's where we reached him today.

NK: Mr. MacKinnon roughly how much money are you going to receive as a result of this compensation agreement?

ANGUS MACKINNON: My farm will receive just under 60,000 dollars from this compensation agreement.

NK: What will that money mean for you and your family?

AM: It's a great help to farmers myself included but all farmers across Canada to pay bills because we have a lot of bills -- we have increased expenses. The prices of everything in farming are going up and the margins are becoming smaller and smaller and smaller every year. So this will just help in general on a daily basis to pay off bills.

NK: The federal government says this money is going to help compensate farmers for the effects of the CEDA trade agreement with the EU and another recent trade agreement with 10 Asia-Pacific countries. What were your concerns about those deals and how might they hurt dairy farmers in your view?

AM: When those deals were signed we as farmers were profoundly hit by the fact that we had to concede market access to our Canadian market. We produce enough milk to satisfy the domestic consumption by Canadians. In that agreement, the Canadian government conceded market access to other countries to come and sell their cheese products and other transformed products. That's market access that we no longer have. Market growth that we will not have. So that's how it affects us mostly is that we have to concede market access to other countries.

NK: From a consumer's point of view, isn't more variety better for Canadians?

AM: We have a multitude of variety on the shelves that we offer our Canadian consumers. We aren't against other countries coming in (and) selling their products but we have to be able to sell our products in their countries.

NK: Supporters of free trade say these kinds of agreements benefit the Canadian economy as a whole. So aren't some concessions necessary to make these agreements possible?

AM: We don't have a problem with concessions as long as the road has two lanes in it -- going and coming back. It's when we have to concede market access and that we don't gain any market access at the other end for our products. That's where we have problems.

NK: Some critics -- former Liberal MP Martha Hall Findlay is one saying there is no telling what other industries might suffer in close-door trade negotiations because of Canada's efforts to protect supply management and the dairy sector. Why should your industry get special treatment and not others?

AM: The Canadian government made a conscientious decision 40-50 years ago to establish a milk quota system. Milk quota has become extremely expensive and farmers have invested millions and millions of dollars in the milk quota system in order to have the right to produce. You start paring that away and farmers find themselves with no safety net. Keep in mind when milk quotas are brought in -- in areas that have milk production -- there is a great economic stability in the community. The farmers traditionally reinvest in their area. They reinvest in their farms so the local construction guy, the plumber, the electrician, the feed representative, the fertilizer salesman -- we all benefit with the trickle down economy of supply management in the area. If we wouldn't have had milk quotas here over the years, dairying in Canada would be concentrated around the large centres.

NK: Other industries also have to deal with the effects of free trade agreements as well though and they're not getting similar compensation packages. Why do you think that is?

AM: We as farmers decided to take into our own hands our destiny years ago by establishing this milk quota system in order to first of all supply a quality product to the consumer on a consistent basis. We have held up our end of the deal. Canada produces some of the highest quality milk in the world and we stand by that. The other industries they have to organize themselves. Yes they are at the peril of international agreements just as we are and we have conceded already -- up to 20 percent of our market access is now available to other countries.

NK: We all know an election is coming. I know you do as well. Is this in your view just an attempt to win your votes -- the votes of dairy farmers and Quebeckers?

AM: I don't think so. You know timing is everything. All this came out of the USMCA agreement last year. There were a lot of people sitting around the table during these negotiations. They take time and I am convinced that election or not we would still be having this interview today.

NK: Will today's announcement affect your vote in October?

AM: No. No. I do not think that it's going to affect my vote. I separate politics and compensation -- it's two different things. The federal government had a responsibility to respond to their decisions made last fall with USMCA and CETA and CPTPP. They had a responsibility towards its citizens being us dairy farmers and they have come through.

NK: Are you worried that there might be a risk that the agreement could fall through if a different party forms government?

AM: I don't think so. I've heard Mr. Scheer say that there has to be some form of compensation. He truly believes in the supply management principle in Canada. He has said it many times that he supports it 100 percent. And it would probably be a political error on his part to make any changes to this agreement.

NK: Thank you so much Mr. MacKinnon.

AM: You're very welcome.

KG: Angus MacKinnon is a seventh generation dairy farmer. We reached him in Coaticook, Quebec.

[Music]

WWII Video Game

Guest: Bob De Schutter

KG: Bob De Schutter is working on a new video game and it features a surprising main character: his 93-year-old grandmother, Bie Verlinden. Mr. De Schutter interviewed her a few years back and now he's used some of those recordings as narration for the game. It's based on her memories from when she grew up at a farm house in Geel, Belgium during the Second World War. Mr. De Schutter plans to release the computer game by the end of this year. He's a game designer and a professor of applied game design at Miami University in Ohio. We reached him in Cincinnati, Ohio.

NK: Mr. De Schutter you must have a really interesting grandmother for you to want to make a game about her. What's she like?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Oh she's pretty spectacular. My grandmother is tough as nails really. You know I'm six foot eight myself, I'm about 220 pounds -- and yeah she can pretty much pin me down with one arm. I think it's probably you know growing up on a farm and with everything that happened to her in her life she's got good muscle.

NK: What's the story people will learn about your grandmother if they play your game?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Well I'm hoping that they will learn what it's like to be an innocent bystander in the middle of a war zone because I think in this day and age that's something that's very valuable for people to be aware of. Aside from that, the game is a lesson in history -- you'll learn what life was like in the 1920s and 30s on a farm house. And then of course the game delves into the Second World War part. And there was a lot there especially the human aspect of it. You know their backyard pretty much turned into the frontline and there were British soldiers and German soldiers killing each other there. There were tank shells hitting the house at some point -- well in multiple points actually. The house caught fire and things like that. So it was a pretty devastating time and very dramatic.

NK: Walk us through how the game will actually work? How do you play it?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: So when you play the game in the beginning you play as me going back to the house because you've been hearing all these amazing stories about my grandmother's childhood and all the crazy war stories that she's been through. Whenever you take a picture of an object, you'll hear my grandmother's stories about why that object is relevant to her and that's how you'll learn about life in the 20s and 30s. But then at some point you feel it's time to go home because you have enough pictures but then you get locked in the house and the ghosts of the past come to life and you'll have to deal with everything that my grandmother went through during the Second World War.

NK: You shared some sound from the game with us. In it your grandmother is speaking Flemish. We're going to get you to explain it after but I want to play listeners that clip now.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Dramatic Music]

[Sound: Guns being fired]

[Sound: Bomb explosion]

[Woman speaking in Flemish]

[Man coughing]

NK: It's intense. We can certainly feel that in those moments even without a translation. But take us through what's happening there and what your grandmother's saying.

BOB DE SCHUTTER: It starts with: you walk into this basement and you get locked in the basement and there's explosions and everything -- that's what we heard in the beginning, they are are kind of muffled. But you know you're kind of safe because you're down in this basement and the explosions come from outside. Then there's the silence after the explosions. There's a lot of heavy breathing as well because you as a character are feeling anxious about being in this situation obviously. And then my grandmother starts talking and she says so then it was silent again like it's in the game at that point in time. And she pulls the door open because there was gas coming everywhere and all that they had while they were sitting in that basement was some patches of clothing like you see in movies actually they rip pieces of their own clothing and they dip them in whatever water was available there and put that on their mouths because apparently that helped him to get some air.

NK: And that's just one of the stories that players will have access to if they decide to play your game. Take us through another one.

BOB DE SCHUTTER: For me personally the story that sticks with me the most is the one -- well it's Chapter 7 "The English Soldier" in the game. So it's a story about a drunken English soldier who well just got drunk and put a gun against my grandfather's chest for no reason whatsoever. You know if he would have shot my grandfather at that point I wouldn't be here right now.

NK: I understand you wanted to make this kind of a game since you were about 12-years-old and you mentioned off the top of the interview that you think people could benefit from it at this point in time. Why?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Yeah I think you know there is still a lot of geopolitical issues going on right now. Obviously in Belgium, they have some significant issues with integration and immigration as well. And I feel you know growing up with my grandmother stories I've always felt for 1) nobody wants to be in a war zone like that and that's something that's completely out of your control. So I always feel that it's unfair when people who are fleeing from being in that kind of situation are seen as people that are trying to profit from another country's resources or something like that because well my grandmother couldn't flee because they were literally stuck there because you know it's a different day and age and transportation was a lot harder and all the countries around them were also at war. So I feel it's a lesson in empathy that is helpful for a lot of people in this day and age.

NK: Your grandmother is in her 90s now. How worried are you that about how foggy some of her memories may or may not be?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: You know having a background in psychology obviously I'm aware that memory is something very fragile. Now thankfully my grandmother is you know mentally still very fit and most of these stories for her are not necessarily as much remembering as re-experiencing. With that in mind, I feel that there's definitely some arguments to be made that a lot of the stuff that she's saying is probably pretty accurate. On the other hand though obviously since memory is just a fragile thing in general -- you know I've done my homework and I've looked into making sure that most of the things that you'll see in the game was accurately depicted as I possibly can. I've even swapped out things that were in earlier versions of the games for more historically accurate assets for example. But in general when it comes down to it I always went with the subjective interpretation or story if you will that I got from my grandmother because for me it's mostly important that players experience everything through her eyes rather than something that is 100 percent historically correct. With that being said though I do feel that we hit at least like 80 or 90 percent.

NK: I know many women who love gaming but there are also many I know -- you probably know -- feel it's it can be a pretty misogynistic place so do you think this game could also help combat some of that?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Well I really hope it does. I think you know it's always a drop on a hot stove I guess because the industry still has enormous problems with that. But at the end of the day if enough people keep doing this we can make a change and I truly believe and I think I've been attending the biggest industry events for the last 10 years you can really see a difference in how people talk about these issues and the amount of effort that companies put into making sure that it becomes a less misogynistic environment online. And there's been huge strides in terms of content as well. There has been so many games come out that are not just inclusive of women but also older people or the LGBTQ community. And I think that is a huge plus for the game industry especially considering that this is one of the biggest medium or media that we have out there right now.

NK: How does your grandmother feel about being the star of a computer game?

BOB DE SCHUTTER: Yes. She was never really expecting anything like this. The Belgian newspapers obviously have picked this up as well and she's been in the major national newspapers two or three times now already to the point that a documentary crew is looking to see if they can do something with her. So you know she's turned a little bit into a celebrity even. I mean it's still just a tiny celebrity. But I have no idea where it is going to end now because in the last year we really made a lot of strides with that.

NK: She'll be headlining gaming conferences. That's what's next. [Laughs] Playing the game.

BOB DE SCHUTTER: [Laughs] If only she would be willing to get on an airplane yes.

NK: Mr. De Schutter thank you so much for this. My pleasure. Thanks for listening.

KG: Bob De Schutter has created a video game starring his grandmother. We reached him in Cincinnati, Ohio. To see photos of Bob De Schutter, his grandmother, and videos of the game check out our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Foodora courier fed up with delivery company's efforts to put the brakes on unionization

Foodora Vote

Guest: Alex Kurth

KG: The ballots are cast but they remain sealed. Foodora couriers in Toronto finished voting on union certification on Tuesday. It's a vote that could have significant repercussions for gig economy workers across the country. But their votes will go uncounted until Ontario's Labour Relations Board rules on whether they had the right to cast them in the first place. Alex Kurth is one of the couriers behind the unionization push and we reached him in Toronto.

NK: Alex, Foodora is challenging the validity of what you're trying to do partly by claiming that not enough couriers signed pledge cards to trigger a vote in the first place. What's your response to that?

ALEX KURTH: Well I mean this is a very common dirty trick that we were expecting them to pull. It's pretty much every company will try to inflate their list of workers in order to try and frustrate our abilities to reach 40 percent of workers. But we're quite confident so that we'll be able to prove that a good portion of these names that they've submitted are not currently active workers for Foodora and that our 40 percent was reached.

NK: One of the other points Foodora is bringing up that it says look you're independent contractors so not eligible to unionize under Ontario's Labour Relations Act. Why do you believe you and the other couriers should be deemed dependent contractors?

AK: There's a quite clear definition under the Ontario Labour Relations Act of what an independent contractor is and is not. And we fail almost all of the points that are clearly specified in that law. We're entirely dependent on Foodora for our deliveries. We can't just show up at a restaurant and say "Hey, do you have any deliveries that I could do for you?" And Foodora really controls every aspect of our work. So there really is no independence there at all.

NK: But food is also part of the gig-economy that we talk about so much. And other companies like Uber for example are saying there's a give and take here -- having the flexibility and the independence of being part of the gig economy is part of the deal.

AK: Certainly in some company's there is the ability to just sign on and sign off at any time that you want. That is not the case with Foodora. They create shifts ahead of time based upon what kind of staffing they think that they'll need. And you basically claim those shifts and commit to them. So other than being able to say yes or no to those shifts, the independence is really an illusion and it's just a way for the company to escape their responsibilities towards their workers.

NK: What is a day in the life of a Foodora courier? What does it look like? How much do you make?

AK: Well basically at the time that you are scheduled to work you log into the app. You need to be within the zone that you are scheduled to work for and then you wait for an order. And part of the problem with this payment model where we just get paid per delivery is that there are no guarantees on how much money we will make-- even though we are committing our time to Foodora to do these deliveries. If there are just not enough orders to go around then we are not getting paid. And even that is only part of it. So we get a flat rate of 4.50 for an order and then we get paid a dollar per kilometre from the restaurant to the customer's house. What we don't get paid for is any of the kilometres or time that we spend going to the restaurants, any time that we spend waiting at the restaurants -- some days we're making less than minimum wage just because of any these factors that are beyond our control. Other days you can make quite decent money. But it's really all over the map.

NK: In a statement that Foodora sent to CBC earlier this week the company said quote, "Foodora has always had an open door policy for carriers to drop by anytime to discuss their challenges or issues with us." Have you tried to discuss your challenges with Foodora?

AK: Of course. I've been working for this company for three and a half years and I've been talking to the management since day one. And you know in the early days it really felt like there was sympathy. And after a while it became clear that that was no longer the case and that even if the Toronto office sympathized with us they were not able to make the necessary changes -- that had to go up the line to head office in Berlin. And it became clear that Berlin had a real 'it ain't broke so don't fix it' kind of attitude. And so after a while it really became clear that the only way that things were going to change was if we started to take back some of our power as workers and start demanding these changes.

NK: We've certainly seen the rise of companies including Uber and Lyft and all of the food delivery companies in every major city so you're not just up against Foodora, you're really up against an employment landscape that has changed and changed fundamentally So how optimistic are you that you can really fight that shift?

AK: I feel like we're really starting something big here. The gig economy as a whole is a scam. It's founded upon misclassification of workers in an attempt to shirk basic legal responsibilities and basic workers rights. So this is really just the first battle in a much bigger war. But I really feel like we are setting precedent here just showing that this can be done, that these companies are not too big to be taken on. And I really think we're going to see some big changes as a result of this.

NK: Many other cases have taken years though. How long do you think this could go on?

AK: Well that's entirely up to Foodora. I mean at this point Foodora can do the right thing and acknowledge our right to unionize but we imagine they're not going to do that. They're going to fight this tooth and nail -- kicking and screaming. So I mean we're going to do everything we can to see a quick conclusion to this. We have no desire to drag this out. It's really entirely up to Foodora at this point.

NK: What will you do if the Labour Relations Board ends up siding with Foodora and rules that these ballots can't be opened?

AK: We're going to reassess and see what other options we can take. I mean I'm quite confident -- if you look at the letter of the law that the Labour Board will rule on on our behalf. But if you know worst case scenario we're going to reassess and see how else we can approach this. But we're certainly not stopping.

NK: Alex thank you.

AK: Thank you.

KG: We reached Foodora courier Alex Kurth in Toronto. We also reached out to Foodora for comment on this story. In a statement they sent by email they said, quote, "There are many reasons why we don't believe our couriers need a union to affect change, including the potential impact on our couriers' flexibility and the presence of union dues." For more on this story visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Nemo Effect

Guest: Diogo Verissimo

KG: You may have seen the headlines dire warnings about how a popular new film will lead to a spike in demand for certain animal species because they represent featured characters in a film. Films like Finding Nemo, Finding Dory, and the Harry Potter series have prompted scares about the welfare of clownfish, blue tang fish, and owls. But a new study by researchers from the University of Oxford concludes the so-called "Nemo effect" doesn't hold water. Diogo Verissimo led the study. He's an Oxford Martin fellow at the university's department of zoology. We reached him in Oxford.

NK: Mr. Verissimo what originally sparked all of this concern about the so-called "Nemo effect?"

DIOGO VERISSIMO: Well what happened was after the release of Finding Nemo in 2003 there were a number of media reports of the fact that this movie was so widely distributed so many people were talking about the clown fish and how cute it was and how nice it would be to have one as a pet -- how that could have some impacts on the wild populations of clownfish. And so it really sort of sparked this so-called "Nemo effect" where there's a lot of talk around the potential impacts of the movie on wildlife and that then transpired to the sequel of course: Finding Dory. And this time to the blue tang which is the fish species of Dory -- who is the protagonist of the second movie.

NK: As we were talking about this story around the office today we were talking about films and TV shows that we heard led to increased demand you know 101 Dalmatians people buying nominations at Christmas or more recently Game of Thrones and Siberian Huskies. How did you decide which species to study?

DV: So as you mentioned there really are a lot of different of movies that have these types of stories associated with them. You know Zootopia is another one. Harry Potter with owls is another one. And so quite honestly was the issue of convenience in the sense that there was quite good data that we can use to look at this issue in more detail -- in more depth -- because really our goal was to go beyond just a one or two anecdotal reports, one or two sort of moral opinions of experts. We really wanted to get down to what the data had to say about these trends. Was it true or wasn't it true? And we found out that we couldn't really find any evidence for a Nemo effect.

NK: There is no Nemo effect after all?

DV: There's no Nemo effect after all. Yeah.

NK: Which ones did you study specifically?

DV: Well the research that we just published focuses on Finding Dory and this is because as I mentioned Finding Nemo was released 2003 so that's a little while ago and makes it harder for us to find all the relevant information. We looked at Finding Dory. We looked at imports of blue tang fish in the United States -- we worked with one of the major importers in the industry. And we compared the number of blue tangs that were imported compared to other species that are within the same family that are also colourful, similar sizes, all of that. So quite comparable -- but they're not featured in the movie -- crucially. And so through that comparison is how we managed to come to this understanding that there was no Nemo effect. We had somewhat similar analysis done for the Harry Potter movie series. This time specifically for the UK where we looked at the release of the movies and actually also the release of the books and we looked at how that mapped onto demand for owls so number of owls registered as pets in the UK. And you know we also found that there really wasn't a relationship.

NK: How did you quantify demand? What did that look like?

DV: Well in the case of dory as I mentioned was number of fish imported. In the case of the UK for you to have your owl -- if you want to have a owl as a pet at home there are some rings that you have to buy to basically get a registration number. This is quite useful because if for example the animal flies away or for any reason you know someone else needs to identify it then it gives it you know an identifier. So a lot of owners do this and there's only a few places where you can find these rings and we worked with these institutions to look at numbers of registrations through time again and how they were linked with sales of books, sales of movie tickets for Harry Potter films. And that's how we went about quantifying demand.

NK: Back in 2016 we spoke to a scientist who founded the Saving Nemo conservation fund and she said the original Finding Nemo -- the demand there led to overfishing and the same thing could happen with blue tangs -- as you were saying -- that that movie was set to hit cinemas. What does your study say about that aspect of things?

DV: Well so we didn't quantify fishing. What I will say is this currently to my knowledge and we did look pretty hard that is we couldn't find any evidence that there was overfishing linked specifically with the movie.

NK: I wonder though if there are some benefits from these blockbusters that prominently feature animals.

DV: Well thank you for that question. I think one of the most important results of our study was that although we didn't find impacts around purchasing we did find impacts around information seeking. So people were listening, people did look for information online, in particular looked at Google searches. And so people were looking for information about the species which I think is really important because it is important that we realize that often species that are out of the public eye don't really get the attention they deserve because you know we're distracted with other things. And so the lion's share goes to elephants, tigers, and pandas which of course they're really important species and they deserve to be conserved but so do other species that have less public profile. So these movies if they focus on species that are less popular already I think they could really have an important role in bringing sort of a diversity of creatures into the public discourse.

NK: Mr. Verissimo thank you.

DV: Thank you very much. It was great to be here.

KG: Diogo Verissimo is a researcher with the University of Oxford's Department of Zoology. We reached him in Oxford.

[Music]

Vanity Plate

Guest: Joseph Tartaro

KG: Joseph Tartaro is really good at finding vulnerabilities in the I.T. systems of big businesses. You might say that as a security consultant he can walk through advanced computer programming in his sleep. But Mr. Tartaro is currently in a waking nightmare with the California DMV and the company that processes citations all because he opted to get a vanity license plate that reads "Null." We reached Joseph Tartaro in Los Angeles, California.

NK: Joseph as someone whose name is spelled "Nil" and has had to spend her life -- a lot of her life -- telling people it doesn't mean zero. I have to ask, why did you want to do this?

JOSEPH TARTARO: So I originally just wanted to get kind of like a nerdy license plate that kind of was associated with what I do for a living which is you know hacking and breaking things and something related to software vulnerabilities and I came to a null pointer which is a type of bug -- it's a null pointer reference. And after I had started typing in null -- I said hey null, that's kind of funny. Sometimes you'll see bugs like that in web applications. You'll enter your name as null and it'll say 'Hey that's invalid' -- you know it must be data, can't be empty. So I thought that might be kind of funny and I can get void for my wife and our driveway would be null and void and that's what started it.

NK: Did you think that it might cause a problem at the DMV when you were even applying for the plates?

JT: I thought worst case the website would not allow me to register for the plate. And I thought that would be funny and I could tell my co-workers 'Hey look I tried to get this thing and it didn't work.' And that was really it. Once I actually obtained the plate, registered for it, and got it in the mail that that was it. I just went, 'cool. I have a cool plate.' But beyond that I did not expect this issue to come out of it.

NK: So your null license plates are on your car, you're driving around no problem When did things start to go wrong?

JT: In the US -- in California -- you have two stickers on your plate. One signify the month and the year of your registration. And one of those stickers was missing. I believe somebody scraped it off to put it on their car or something. So I received a ticket for missing sticker and everything spiraled down the moment I paid for that ticket. I think that's what associated me with all the other missing plates or something and then I started getting tickets in the mail. And it all spiraled out.

NK: Yeah. Let's break that down because that first infraction was an actual infraction connected to you. But how is it happening that you're being forced to pay tickets that have nothing to do with you or your car?

JT: So if I had to guess I believe in scenarios where there might be a missing plate on a car or maybe the person writing up the citation just does not want to fill out all the info and just leaves the input blank. I think that maybe that whatever software they're using to input that data would go okay this value is blank I'm going to put the value null -- and that goes into the database. The moment I paid for my citation they went oh hey we finally have somebody and we have all these outstanding tickets that nobody's paid for -- let's send them all to that guy. And that kind of shows why I actually received tickets for tickets that were years before I even had the plate registered.

NK: So how many tickets are we talking about and how much money does the system think you owe it?

JT: Initially you know I received like a handful of tickets like physically -- you know maybe 5-10 initially. But once I went and logged into their website and put my license plate it was you know over 150 or so. And it was sitting at about 12,000 dollars.

NK: Wow. And Joseph can you list a couple of the kinds of citations you were getting?

JT: I received tickets for abandoned vehicles for 72 hours, expired registration tabs, for sale signs, license plates not displayed, parked in a disabled stall, parked in a fire lane, parked on crosswalks/ground/sidewalk, and an unregistered vehicle.

NK: It's like you're in a bureaucratic upside down.

JT: [Laughs] Yeah. And there's no way out.

NK: So what is the process? What have you been trying to do to try to fix it?

JT: So I contacted the company and you know I was trying to explain to them that the tickets were directed to me with my name but like one is for Honda, one is for you know a Toyota, Mercedes -- like I don't have 20 cars, it's clearly a mistake all across a bunch of different counties over the state of California. Their response was basically you have to prove to us without a doubt that none of these are yours. And it was kind of a joke at that point because I'm kind of in disbelief. I'm showing them examples of -- there were two tickets that were given at a college in Southern California called Cypress College there were two separate tickets given on the same for two separate types of vehicles -- one at like 11 am and one at 1 pm. And if I remember correctly the person said 'Well how do I know you did not change your registration and move it to a different vehicle during that time window?'

NK: Can you just dump the license plate and move on?

JT: So that's the issue. This company -- I don't know what happened but for some reason like I have physical tickets in front of me that said that there are for a Honda and when you look it up suddenly it says it's for an Infinity and it's my car. So these tickets were modified somehow to look like mine. And ever since that happened now the DMV is enforcing payment for at least two of the tickets. So the issue is I can't change my plate because that would require paying those tickets and I was advised by legal to not pay the ticket because it would admit guilt and open up you know an entire mess. So I'm basically in a really bad pickle here where in about two weeks I will not be able to legally drive my vehicle without breaking the law because it will be expired.

NK: You know people have had a chuckle perhaps when they read the story, you've chuckled yourself a couple of times throughout the interview -- but I can also hear the strain in your voice. What kind of emotional toll is this taking on you and your wife?

JT: I mean it is a really serious situation. You know you're dealing with the normal anxiousness, the trouble sleeping stuff like that. For all I know there are bench warrants for my arrest in various counties across the state. A police officer might see me, pull me over, and arrest me and take me to one of those counties -- later this year my license might be suspended and I won't be able to drive at all. You know there's some definite issues here that are potential and it's a bit scary when you think about it especially sitting there knowing that I didn't do anything wrong and I tried to get this issue fixed and I reached out to the people involved and it went nowhere.

NK: Joseph thank you for your time. I do hope it gets sorted out in the end and you can get back on the road.

JT: Yeah. Thank you. Me too. I appreciate it.

KG: Joseph Tartaro is a security consultant in Los Angeles and that is where we reached him.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

August 16, 2019 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This