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The AIH Transcript for August 14, 2019

Hosts: Nil Köksal and Karen Gordon

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello I'm Nil Koksal.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

NK: Defending his work ethics. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he accepts responsibility for his part in the SNC-Lavalin affair after a damning report by the Ethics Commissioner says he broke the rules.

KG: Zone of turbulence. Hong Kong's airport has resumed an air of stability a day after clashes but an adviser to the city's chief executive is dismissing apologies from protesters -- instead calling some of them terrorists.

NK: Honor bound. The brother of a detained Saudi women's rights activist says she rejected a deal that could have led to her release but she would have had to deny on video reports of her torture.

KG: Colossal remake. The U.S. Immigration chief takes a stab at reinterpreting the Statue of Liberty celebrated ode to immigrant -- but his new "New Colossus" falls flat for the original poet's biographer.

NK: He was clearly not a flight risk. Parker the Emu has been on the lam before from his Vancouver Island farm -- but his latest escape and escapades convinced RCMP officers they had no choice but to subdue him by taser.

KG: And in the name of the "the" in the name. After a year of insisting that it's more than just Ohio State University -- "The" Ohio State University applies for a trademark of the word "the" so it can brandish its article on articles of clothing. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that has long suspected that there's a the-there.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: SNC-Lavalin report vindicates Jody Wilson-Raybould, says political scientist

Ethics SNC Lavalin

Guest: David Moscrop

KG: The SNC-Lavalin affair has come back to bite Prime Minister Justin Trudeau just 10 weeks before a federal election. Today, Ethics Commissioner Mario Dion ruled that the Prime Minister had violated the ethics code by trying to influence his Justice Minister and Attorney-General Jody Wilson-Raybould. Last February, Ms. Wilson-Raybould described facing sustained pressure by the Prime Minister's office to reach an agreement with construction company SNC-Lavalin so they could avoid prosecution on corruption charges. Today Ms. Wilson-Raybould described the ethics report as "vindication." Leader of the Opposition Andrew Scheer answered questions from the media today. Here's part of what he said.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: We have a company that's facing serious corruption charges for defrauding some of the world's poorest people. And when they are being held accountable in Canadian courts they lean on Justin Trudeau and their friends in the prime minister's office to interfere -- to get a special deal -- to get the trial stopped. That is an unforgivable assault on the independence of our rule of law and the independence of our justice system. And that is why Justin Trudeau needs to be held accountable. I'm confident that Canadians will do exactly that.

KG: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says he takes full responsibility but doesn't agree with today's findings.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I fully accept this report and take responsibility for everything that happened. Where I disagree with the commissioner -- amongst others -- is where he says and takes a strong perspective that any contact with the AG -- the Attorney General -- on this issue was improper. My job as a prime minister is to stand up for Canadians and defend their interests. And yes it is essential that we do that in a way that defends our institutions, that upholds prosecutorial independence. But we need to be able to talk about the impacts on Canadians right across the country of decisions being made.

KG: David Moscrop has been flipping through today's ethics report. He's a political scientist and postdoctoral fellow at the University of Ottawa. We reached him in Ottawa.

NK: Mr. Moscrop is that the response you were expecting from the prime minister today?

DAVID MOSCROP: I didn't know what to expect. I thought maybe strategically you would see something closer to a mea culpa, and a discussion of structural reforms, even an attack on the culture that produces this sort of thing in the first place. But instead we got the equivalent of more of the same. I don't think it's going to serve him well.

NK: What do you think he should have said outright instead?

DM: Well if he truly believes that he's done nothing wrong then I think he should tell the truth and say what he said -- that he believes that you know he didn't do a thing wrong in the first place, that Jody Wilson-Raybould should have come to him if there was a problem or resigned. And if that's what he truly believed in then fine. I think for their own fortunes -- the fortunes of the Liberal Party -- a mea culpa would've been more appropriate. And for the long run and good of the country I think a mea culpa would've been appropriate because then we could have talked about structural reforms too to prevent this from happening -- not just by say separating the attorney general and the minister justice roles but also changing the culture and the prime minister's office and perhaps in the Privy Council Office the sort of culture that produces this mess in the first place.

NK: We've all been poring through the 63 pages of the ethics commissioner's report. But in a nutshell for our listeners breakdown the key points.

DM: The reality is I mean there's a couple of things that stand out as new and remarkable and one of them is that in the course of his investigation (he) had a hard time getting access to all of the documents that he needed to carry out the investigation -- that the Privy Council wouldn't share certain things he thought were germane. And that he was able to make some findings despite that lack of evidence. I think that's an indictment of the system to some extent. But the broader more interesting takeaway is that this is the first time the entire affair has been laid out in one place in comprehensive detail and it is ultimately a narrative that backs up -- I think -- Jody Wilson-Raybould's story that she was pressured consistently and inappropriately to intervene.

NK: She's just released a statement on her Facebook page using the word "vindication." What do you make of what she said in response?

DM: It's the word I have been using all day. It's the word that kept rolling across my mind as I read through the report. It reads like a vindication of everything that she had said publicly.

NK: He makes the distinction -- Dion does -- that just trying to influence the decision of another person -- you know speaking to the attorney general doesn't violate the code...the section 9. But they're trying to promote the interests -- private interests -- of another person that's the key here. It wasn't just one part of the equation. It was both.

DM: I think he makes the case. He points out three instances at the end of the report. In fact if you're going to read just two things, read the summary and read the last 50 paragraphs. He lays out three instances that he thought in which there was undue or inappropriate pressure placed on Jody Wilson-Raybould. The first was Michael Wernick who was then the head of the Privy Council bringing up SNC-Lavalin's impending board meeting and mentioning economic consequences -- as something that Prime Minister Trudeau had mentioned time and time again: job losses and the potential that the headquarters of SNC-Lavalin would move. You know it was in the economic interest of the country to give the SNC a remediation [inaudible] because if not you know lose jobs and they're going to leave. So that was brought up. And of course that's linked very directly to SNC's own economic interest. So you can see the link.

NK: That was the line from the Liberals repeatedly -- there were 9,000 jobs to be protected in Quebec, that those would be lost if SNC-Lavalin faced a corruption trial. We heard the prime minister hint at that again. He is sticking to that argument.

DM: Yeah I mean I think one of the interesting challenges in this whole affair is that you know observers like when it's black and white or when there's a villain and a hero. I think the truth is reading through this report, looking back on the committee testimony -- what you see is human beings in the middle of the political system who are acting for a whole bunch of different reasons. You know some of them were perfectly consistent with their roles and with the conflict of interest and some that weren't. And what Mr. Dion has highlighted in this report are the ones that weren't. I don't think anyone is deeply nefarious in any of this. Misguided, definitely. Part of a toxic political culture, no doubt. But it certainly comes off as slightly more complicated than you might think.

NK: But Canadians are trying to make up their minds, right? Ten weeks before an election so the timing of all this is crucial. What do you make of the timing?

DM: My working hypothesis is that this was deemed as a priority and something that was in the public interest to release sooner rather than later. Although I can't imagine that the thought hadn't crossed someone's mind that in the ethics eyes that to a certain point as we approach the election it gets politically pretty dicey to release it. You know we don't want to Comey letter in Canada, right. So if this came out in October it would have been a massive problem.

NK: Could this sway or decide the election in your view?

DM: It's really hard to know. My sense is that it's certainly going to do the Liberals no favours. It's going to make what was already a very difficult task of getting re-elected even more difficult. I suspect most people sort of made up their mind about SNC but it's going to distract quite a bit. And it's also going to motivate opponents. We've already seen the energy coming from Jagmeet Singh and Andrew Scheer already today.

NK: Well the reaction from Mr. Scheer in particular framing this in criminal terms -- using the words "verdict" and "guilty." That was interesting to see and it's clearly going to be part of their messaging going forward.

DM: Oh yeah. It's going to be part of I think everybody's messaging going forward. The truth is a law has been broken. It's not a criminal law. But strictly speaking it is a law. I think in a lot of people's minds they're not making a distinction between criminal laws and other laws. But the opposition parties are certainly going to be -- are not going to mind that. They're going to mobilize that -- as the Liberals would do, right. I mean if you recall how opposition parties including the Liberals talked about Stephen Harper and Nigel Wright during the Wright-Duffy affair, there were some liberties taken then too. And I suspect we're going to see a repeat of that.

NK: Mr. Moscrop thank you for your time.

DM: My pleasure.

KG: David Moscrop is a political scientist and postdoctoral fellow at the University of Ottawa. We reached him in Ottawa. And for more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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Greta Thunberg

KG: Today, environmental activist Greta Thunberg left England on a zero-emissions racing vote. That's where she'll be for the next two weeks as she travels to New York. There's no toilet or shower but she won't fly because of the environmental impact. The 16-year-old from Sweden has gained attention for her strikes from school to bring attention to the climate crisis. She's traveling across the Atlantic to attend climate summit. Here's some of what Ms. Thunberg said to reporters in Plymouth today just before she embarked on her journey.

SOUNDCLIP

GRETA THUNBERG: I mean of course this is a big challenge. I don't think -- I mean I'm not the one who are going to take us there, it is Boris and Pierre. But of course it's going to be challenging for everyone on the boat. Probably that is what you have to expect. And I mean there are always going to be people who don't understand or don't accept the united science. And I mean I will just ignore them because I mean I'm only acting and communicating on the science. And if they don't like that then I mean -- what have I got to do with that? If I were to choose one thing that will be achieved from this trip or these summit, then I would say if I want to choose one thing I would say increase awareness among people in general so that people start realizing that we are in an emergency and that they know the background and what is required to prevent the worst consequences. Because if enough people are aware then they will start to care about this and then they will create international opinion and people can together put pressure on the people in power so that they will have to do something.

KG: That was the teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg speaking to reporters in Plymouth before she set sail today on a two week journey to the U.S.

[Music]

Loujain Alhathloul

Guest: Walid Alhathloul

KG: She was offered a deal by Saudi officials that could get her out of jail. But as part of that agreement they wanted her to deny reports of torture on video. That's the offer prominent Saudi women's rights activist and UBC grad Loujain Alhathloul was given according to her siblings. Her brother and sister who don't live in Saudi Arabia right now shared the information on Twitter yesterday. Ms. Alhathloul was a major figure in the campaign to allow women in the Kingdom to drive. She was about one of a dozen women who was detained last year. Her brother Walid Alhathloul lives in Toronto and that's where we reached him.

NK: Mr. Alhathloul how did you learn about this offer...this demand?

WALID ALHATHLOUL: So this is when my parents visited my sister -- Loujain -- yesterday.

NK: Just take me through what exactly they were demanding.

WA: They approached her at the beginning three times actually. The initial agreement in the beginning was to sign a document saying that she was not tortured. And we cannot agree on that but that was like a verbal agreement. There is no guarantee that she if she is going to sign that document that she would be released. And we thought that it's just a piece of paper and nobody would believe it anyway, so we agree on that. And then the third visit they came in again -- and that was surprising to us because they actually went further and asked additional request from Loujain in prison and they said that she would have to appear on video saying that she denies the torture. And she -- when they handed the document to her to sign it -- she just flipped it and she gave it back to them. She rejected the offer to appear on video. That was too much to ask.

NK: As her brother, was there any part of you that wishes she would have just accepted it?

WA: The situation was -- like I haven't decided. Like we don't know what the consequences of appearing on video. Like we have people saying that you know she should have accepted it and just appear on video and nobody would believe it. But we have the other side saying that it's better not to accept the offer because there is consequences and they might even go further and ask even more.

NK: Let's remind listeners about why your sister was detained back in 2018.

WA: So when she was arrested back in 2018 the Saudi local media say that she was arrested as part of the crackdown -- herself and other women right activists. The claim or justified the arrests as they were conspiring with other foreign entities to undermine state security in Saudi Arabia and that they were dealing with foreign entities -- being funded to work for their agendas. And none of that was true. And then when the trial started they had the -- none of what they said at the beginning about undermining state security was mentioned in the list of charges. In fact most of the charges were related to her human rights activism. So that was quite surprising to us. And when the trial started back in March she had like a couple of sessions and then on the fourth session they just canceled it and without mentioning the reason why she was -- why the trial was canceled. And yet we don't know what's going to happen in terms of the trial.

NK: What's it been like for her in detention?

WA: It's terrible! It's terrible. Like the way they treated her is awful. Nobody would believe that this would happen in a time when we are trying to promote like Vision 2030 you would think that this is going to be a paradise but it's awful. They tortured her. They mistreated her. They sexually harassed her in a secret facility when she was first arrested at that time. And they are still denying that the torture took place and they don't want to admit that she was actually tortured at that time.

NK: How is she coping and how do you think she's able to stand up to the demands and the ongoing situation given everything she's been through?

WA: She's holding on. Being in jail for now 14 months it's not an easy experience especially for someone who hasn't committed anything wrong basically and trying to figure out why you have been arrested for 14 months while being tortured and mistreated...it's not an easy experience.

NK: How are you coping with all of this?

WA: I'm surviving. It's not an easy experience for me as well. I came to Canada to study. I wasn't intended to stay in Canada. My plan was to go back to Saudi once I finish school. But just when I came to Canada they place my sister and the whole family -- including myself -- on travel ban. So it's a difficult situation because if I go back to Saudi I would never be able to leave the country. I would not be able to talk to you today because I'm going to be for sure thrown in jail.

NK: Walid thank you so much for your time.

WA: Thank you very much Nil. Thank you for having.

KG: That was Walid Alhathloul -- the brother of Saudi women's rights activist Loujain Alhathloul. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Tasered Emu

Guest: Linda Dyke

KG: Parker the Emu has escaped his Vancouver Island home before. But those who know him say yesterday is the first time he wound up getting tasered. Linda Dyke lives down the road from Parker's owners who are currently away. She and her husband Jim are looking after the Emu until their neighbours return. We reached Ms. Dyke in Chemainus, British Columbia.

NK: Ms. Dyke how did Parker the Emu end up getting tasered?

LINDA DYKE: He actually escaped his enclosure and was seen running down the road and I guess the police got involved and they thought he was being aggressive and they tasered him.

NK: What did you think when you heard?

LD: I kind of thought it was kind of excessive just for the simple fact we know the guy that owns him and he is his pet. And my husband knew he had been declawed and he wasn't an aggressive animal. But with that being said I wasn't in their shoes. You know they didn't know Parker so whatever. You know the animal -- the bird is okay.

NK: That's what I wanted to ask. So it started with him blocking traffic it sounds like. Police shooting with the taser. Then what happened?

LD: Then I guess animal control and the police they all managed to secure him, put him in the back of the truck, and brought him into our place. And we put him in a stall and he's fine.

NK: We're glad he's doing okay. For people -- even if they know what an emu looks like -- just paints a picture of how big Parker is and what all of this looks like.

LD: Well a description I read was like it was 5 foot 7. Well I'm 5 foot 2 and he doesn't tower over me. So I would say they are probably about 5-2 or 5-3. Maybe at the most 5-4. Prehistoric looking. Quite frankly I think they're ugly but...

NK: [Laughs] Don't let Parker hear you.

LD: I know. Because Parker's in my barn right now I think he's pretty cute and he lets you pet him. Like he's a nice emu.

NK: So do the RCMP give you or your husband any explanation as to why they felt they needed to taser Parker?

LD: Well they thought he had claws. And you know if they're cornered or scared they probably will lash out with their claws. And they just didn't know him. They didn't know him and they wanted to keep everybody and everything safe including Parker.

NK: Does he have a history of escaping?

LD: Yes he does. He's been on our property about 17-18 years ago. And my husband and my son tackled him and that was the first time we ever met the owner. And ever since then I mean he's a pretty good guy up the road.

NK: And you're looking after Parker until his owners get back into town, have you had a chat with them about what's happened?

LD: Yes. We've had a chat with him and he's going...like he can't believe it. He can't believe that an emu has gone viral. You know it's just been hilarious the amount of phone calls and and everything that we've gotten. I'm just thinking this is an emu -- like come guys [laughs]. But it's nice to see that it's something light-hearted after all the tough news that we always hear every day. Everybody's just getting a kick out of this.

NK: And what are you guys doing to make sure he doesn't get out again? What are you doing to keep him in his enclosure?

LD: Well I've got him in one of my horse stalls. We've got the barn completely locked up so he cannot get out. What I think is really going on is it's breeding season and he probably got fed up of the jockeying for position for a female and he probably said "Hey I'm out of here. See you later." So yeah.

NK: [Chuckles] We're all getting an emu education today. I've heard of emu farmers. I haven't heard of people keeping them as pets.

LD: Yeah he's got them as pets. He likes his emu so each to his own. So yeah his owner really loves him and we're keeping him happy and I'm babysitting him for him.

NK: It's been a treat speaking with you Linda. Thanks so much for your time.

LD: Oh you're welcome.

KG: We reached Linda Dyke in Chemainus, BC -- where she and her husband are currently looking after Parker the emu. They say he's recovering well after being tasered by an RCMP officer yesterday. In a statement about the incident the RCMP Sergeant Chris Swain said, quote, "We are pleased that officers were able to maintain public safety while using as little force as necessary towards the aggressive emu."

[Music]

“The” Word

KG: Dear The United States of America. The Ohio State University would like a word. That's right. I said "The" Ohio State University. And that's precisely the word they want. The first one in your name. And at least officially the first one in theirs. The word of course is "the." The problem is even though they've insisted for years that they are "The" Ohio State University -- just about everyone refuses to acknowledge their "the" -- and stubbornly keeps referring to them simply as Ohio State University. Even one former Buckeyes quarterback, a self-professed "proud Ohio State alum" said this of the university's "the" -- "It is pompous and stupid." Nonetheless Ohio State wants to own their "the" with a trademark. Not the full title mind you by which I mean "The Ohio State University." They just want the article "the" so they can emblazoned it on articles of clothing such as T-shirts and baseball caps and hats. Which is why last week the university filed an application to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office but Josh Gerben -- the trademark lawyer who first brought the story to light -- doesn't think the university will prevail in the "The" petition. Here he is explaining why in a Twitter post.

SOUNDCLIP

JOSH GERBEN: In order for a trademark to be registered for a brand of clothing the trademark has to be used on tagging or labeling for the products. In this case just putting the word "the" on the front of a hat or on the front of a shirt is not sufficient trademark use. It's a little surprising that the university would not have been a little bit more sophisticated in the specimens that they submitted with their application here -- sort of trademarks 101.

KG: In other words good luck with "the."

[Music]

Part 2: Hong Kong politician condemns protest violence as 'terrorism,' echoing Beijing

Hong Kong: Ronny Tong

Guest: Ronny Tong

KG: The Hong Kong International Airport has returned to relative normalcy but the consequences of yesterday's violence are still reverberating. Protesters tried to block police with luggage trolleys and police responded with force. Now a temporary court injunction has forced the protesters to limit their action at the airport. Meanwhile video footage captured last night is getting major media play across mainland China. One video shows protesters detaining a man with cable ties. They accused him of being an undercover police officer. But a pro-government Chinese newspaper claims he was one of their reporters. Today Hong Kong's assistant commissioner of police operations likened the situation to torture. Here's Mak Chin-ho addressing it -- and a second similar incident that was reported.

SOUNDCLIP

MAK CHIN-HO: In the first instance a mainlander was choked and assault with his hands and neck bound with cable ties. He appeared semi-conscious as protesters poured water on him and displayed his belongings on the floor. In a second instance another visitor who turned out to be a reporter from the mainland also received a similar suffering. He was also publicly shamed and insult and unlawfully detained for long time.

KG: Ronny Tong is a member of Hong Kong's Executive Council and an advisor to Chief Executive Carrie Lam. We reached Mr. Tong in Hong Kong.

NK: Mr. Tong I want to start with one of the videos that's been circulating. It shows protesters detaining a man with cable ties. Why do you think protesters did this?

RONNY TONG: I think most of people in Hong Kong are at a loss as to how such violent acts could occur in Hong Kong in particular in relation to someone which presumably the protesters did not know. They assume that he may be working with mainland police but there was no evidence about that. He was in fact a reporter. But I think nothing justifies violence and I just don't think there is any justification for what happened last night.

NK: It's interesting that you put it that way because I've been speaking to people who have been in the protests over the last little while specifically at the airport and they used kind of the same phrasing. They said why do the police have to go so far this past weekend? So can you appreciate that the protesters -- many of them -- are perhaps at a boiling point? There is a serious mistrust of the police and that that may have motivated what we saw play out.

RT: Well if nobody breaks the law I don't think the police would do anything at all. So far there has been a lot of accusations about police overstepping the line but we haven't actually seen any concrete evidence of the police acting in brutality against the protesters.

NK: Well a woman last her eye over the weekend. As we've been told there was pepper spray yesterday.

RT: There you are, you see? There are conflicting evidence as to how the girl got injured. Whether she was in fact hit by steel projectiles fired from slingshots of comrades or from the police. In fact she made no report to the police and the police have been trying very hard to try to investigate and get her to cooperate with the police so that the truth can come out. I think it is very dangerous to assume you know one thing or another without looking at the hard facts.

NK: There was tear gas in the metro station over the weekend. Yesterday specifically, pepper spray. And there is also footage -- there's a video of an officer pulling out his gun.

RT: Oh of course there was. Do you expect anything less if a similar situation were to occur in Toronto or anywhere in Canada or in the United States or in the United Kingdom where police are confronted with you know people arming to the teeth you know with steel rods with slingshots and corrosive liquid and petrol bombs -- what do you expect the police to do?

NK: There are also many peaceful protesters. In fact that's what we've seen a lot of at the airport.

RT: True.

NK: And many of those protesters they apologize to travelers and the general public. There were scenes -- in fact some of them bowing at the airport. What do you make of that apology?

RT: Yes they did apologize. In fact they did that every time. Over the last two months this had occurred many times when the protesters had obstruction you know various places including the Immigration Department. Then yes the next day they apologized. But unfortunately they came back and did exactly the same thing and in fact getting more and more obstructive...

NK: But can you appreciate sir that the people I've spoken to certainly say they don't necessarily want to be there. They feel they have to be there because they've tried to be heard and they're not being heard. What do you think the better solution would be? Many people are saying that the government and your officials need to reach out.

RT: I think you're only hearing one side of the story which is very unfortunate.

NK: We've asked to speak to you because we want to hear all sides.

RT: Well you really ought to get to know both sides. The chief executive had openly invited to sit down and talk to various student leaders and her offer was refused. And in fact there are channels open in Hong Kong -- they can air their grievances through their representatives LegCo -- which is the Parliament in Hong Kong. They could approach any of the officials. They could approach me for that matter. But today they decided to take to the streets. You know they claim that a million people took to the street and nothing happened while they were marching peacefully in the street. Now that does demonstrate that more than anything else that Hong Kong is a very free place and you have every right to voice your grievances.

NK: Clearly with the apology that I mentioned some of the protesters -- a large group of them -- are doing I think we can say some soul searching about where to take things next. But is there soul searching going on your side of things of how you can better communicate with the protesters so it doesn't escalate again and that maybe after weeks and weeks -- several months now -- there can be some sort of resolution?

RT: Well I hate to answer a loaded question so I have to deal with them one by one. First of all in fact they're back at the airport right now. You know even after the airport authority in charge of the airport had obtained an injunction from the court. So apologizing is perhaps quite not enough. Secondly I myself propose that we should set up a Truth and Reconciliation Commission to resolve the differences in the community. But unfortunately you can't sit down and negotiate or try to get over these difficulties if you come to the conference table with petrol bombs and slingshots and steel rods. And every day I call out to everybody including the police to calm down, stay away from violence, and let's give reconciliation a chance.

NK: There's been a loss of trust though clearly. So how do you get it back?

RT: I think trust needed to be built. The chief executive has openly apologized more than once. They propose an amendment which sparked all this -- it has been suspended. The chief executive said it was as good as dead. So the main purpose of the protesters had already been achieved. If so, why are they still you know going onto the streets and committing violent crimes? You know trust works both ways -- it is a two way street.

NK: On top of the list of demands as you know is a full withdrawal of that controversial extradition bill -- not just a shelving of it. Why hasn't that happened?

RT: Well that is an argument in semantics. The fact is that the chief executive has said openly that she would not bring it back. It is as good as dead. Isn't that enough? I mean why are we arguing over what language is being used and use that as a justification to resort to violence? Nothing justifies violence.

NK: It's a very small group of people that we saw yesterday not the majority by any means of the protesters. So if you approach them like that is that part of the issue that you're focusing on one small group of people rather than the larger argument they're trying to make?

RT: I'm not. I'm focusing on the fact that Hong Kong is suffering a lot both financially and politically. And so far as our reputation as well. And you know whether there was only a small number of people or a large number of people the fact remains that Hong Kong is suffering and we are trying to stop the suffering and it is no point to say to me that oh look there are only a few of them. And that you should not do anything and allow Hong Kong to continue to suffer.

NK: But they look at the images of armoured personnel carriers at the southern border near Hong Kong. People are worried about a severe crackdown.

RT: Well I'm worried about that too and that's why everybody needs to you know constrain themselves and think about you know the bad consequences that might arise if this situation were to persist. And I do not wish to see that happen. However one must understand that under the Basic Law which is the mini-constitution that we have in Hong Kong there are clear provisions for the PLA to intervene in the event that the SL government is unable to control the situation in Hong Kong. And that is why we are doing our utmost to try to control the situation.

NK: The Chinese government has called the events at the airport last night, quote, "terrorist like actions." Would you use that language?

RT: Yes. Wouldn't you? I mean doesn't it fit in the definition of terrorism as defined by the United Nations. Go and check on Oxford dictionary please. Turn it up. All right. When people are abusing their rights and frightening civilians you are acting in a terrorist manner. That's the definition you'll find in Oxford dictionary.

NK: So many of the protesters are young men and young women. How worried are you that the younger generation is just not satisfied with the status quo? They want democracy. They want independence and they're worried about keeping it sir. That's why so many are going to work and then coming to protests on the weekends.

RT: Again you're asking loaded questions. And you know I will not allow to go unnoticed on this. Hong Kong is part of China. We run a system called One Country Two Systems. So any such demand is not only constitutionally wrong but politically wrong. And there is no conceivable chance that that would happen. As for freedoms, Hong Kong has lots of freedoms. What freedom has anybody lost in Hong Kong? There are still a lot of people you know protesting every day peacefully and nothing happened to them. They have not been arrested, right. So to say that they are losing their freedom really you know makes me very very difficult to comprehend where that comes from.

NK: How far do you think the leadership and the police in Hong Kong are willing to go to fight the protesters if these continue to drag on?

RT: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm very worried like everybody else. I mean everybody's losing sleep over this. And I hope that you know protesters are out there listening to this interview and realize that everybody is trying their very best to try to bring everybody around to the conference table. Let's hope that tomorrow we see a calmer and more orderly Hong Kong.

NK: Mr. Tong I really appreciate your time. Thank you.

RT: Thank you.

KG: Ronny Tong is a member of Hong Kong's Executive Council and an advisor to chief executive Carrie Lam. We reached Mr. Tong in Hong Kong. For more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Emma Lazarus

Guest: Annie Polland

KG: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." That's the final and most famous passage from "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus. The poem is cast onto the base of the Statue of Liberty. Now, more than a century after it was written, it's being reinterpreted by America's acting immigration chief. In an interview yesterday with NPR, Ken Cuccinelli said the poem should only refer to the tired and poor who could, quote, "stand on their own two feet without becoming a public charge." Then last night Mr. Cuccinelli told CNN's Erin Burnett that the poems message only applied to European immigrants.

SOUNDCLIP

ERIN BURNETT: What do you think America stands for?

KEN CUCCINELLI: Well of course that poem was referring back to people coming from Europe where they had class based societies where people were considered wretched if they weren't in the right class. And it was introduced -- it was written one year -- one year -- after the first federal public charge rule was written that says, and I'll quote it, "any person unable to take care of himself without becoming a public charge" would be inadmissible.

KG: But biographers of Ms. Lazarus are challenging Mr. Cuccinelli's attempts to revise and interpret the sonnet. Annie Polland is one of them. She is the executive director of the American Jewish Historical Society. We reached her in New York City.

NK: Ms. Polland what do you make of Mr. Cuccinelli take on Emma Lazarus' famous poem?

ANNIE POLLAND: I think it's a take that Emma would not agree with. Emma wrote that poem in which she talked about the Statue of Liberty as a mother of exiles. And she meant that poem to be one that situated America as welcoming and inclusive.

NK: Let's go back into the history of the poem just a bit more. Why and when did Emma Lazarus write it?

AP: She wrote the poem in 1883. A friend of hers named Constance Cary Harrison was organizing a submission for an auction. She was asking artists and writers to contribute pieces that would be auctioned off in order to raise money for the pedestal for the Statue of Liberty. And she asked Emma -- and Emma said you know I don't write on command. And then she said but think of the refugees you've been working with, think of the East European Jews you've been working with, and that they'll see the statue in the harbor. And so Emma's eyes lit up according to the story and she said I'll do it. And comes back a few days later with "The New Colossus." So it was written for an auction to raise money for the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty.

NK: How do you feel then now about these attempts by Mr. Cuccinelli and others to try to make this poem fit into current political ideologies?

AP: Well I think Emma -- and I think is important to read this poem and keep looking at it and people do this. We know that people are Googling this poem. They're looking at that poem -- it continues to inspire people. I think the problem lies when people try to take a section of the poem and say "this means this" and "this means this policy" or "this comes from that." I find that troublesome because it ignores the deeper context in which it was written and what we do with our students is we invite students to read the poem, learn about the historical context in which Emma wrote it, and we invite students to write their own poems. We ask them if you could write a poem for the Statue of Liberty about American ideals, what would you write? And I think that the poem the students are writing have actually been much more inspiring than some of the blanket statements or the attempts to link the poem to policy that I've been hearing.

NK: Let's give some more attention to those. What kinds of things are the students writing?

AP: You know they're writing about American ideals. They're writing about problems that they see and ways to fix it and they're putting it together. They're showing a real kind of complex understanding of how there can be ideals about America but the reality can change and how we still need to work to make America the best that it can be. And I think that that's really in keeping with Emma Lazarus. When Emma Lazarus wrote "The New Colossus" she didn't think every single person agreed with her. She knew it was important to put out this idea that America was a mother of exiles and that the tired, the poor, the wretched would have an opportunity to start a new life. And she also posited that that drive to do better and that yearning to breathe free as she writes that was going to make America a better place.

NK: Your organization runs specifically the Emma Lazarus Project. You mentioned some of the work you do on that front. Why did your organization want to focus on Emma Lazarus?

AP: Well we have her collection in our archives. And as I mentioned there's this beautiful red book where she's handwritten her poetry. And I just felt like we can't keep that inside. Like we need to get the story of that poem and the story of the woman who wrote the poem out to a broader public because the issues that she dealt with you know ideas about immigrants, ideas about anti-Semitism, ideas about prejudice these are still relevant today so if we can get this poem out and we can share the story and we can teach people about the complexities of the time then our thinking is people are going to be able to approach today with a better and more complex and situating them to deal with these substantive issues in better ways.

NK: I'm not an American but I have had the good fortune of visiting the Statue of Liberty, seeing the plaque, visiting Ellis Island as well, understanding the immigrant experience from that time, being an immigrant myself to this country -- it resonates even if you're not an American certainly. It's quite a moving experience for those who haven't had that opportunity. But why do you think it still means so much to the American public?

AP: I think because it represents everything that's great about the possibilities of this country. The idea that you could start anew. That you could work hard. That you're going to strive to support your family. I think that idea of new beginnings and the idea that hard work could pave the way to opportunity is one that resonates with people and that people really feel deep inside. And I know in our site at American Jewish Historical Society we have a manuscript where she wrote the poem out and when we share it with people I can see how moved they are and that there's a way in which when we read that poem it's almost like a prayer for this country. There's something sacred about it. Now it doesn't mean that everything is always gone right in this country nor does it mean that that poem encapsulates all the great issues that we've had to deal with, but it does put us on a kind of a track to be striving for a better -- a continuously better America in my opinion.

NK: And as I read more analysis of the poem and as you look through it line by line as a whole there is the sense you know people have been pointing out there's this sense that it's not what Mr. Cuccinelli was saying about Europe but this was a new world -- a better life.

AP: I think that's right. She says "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" So it's a reference to the old world -- Europe. Keep your class divisions, keep your story pomp -- here in this new country we're going to create a country of people yearning to breathe free. So I think she's writing this poem to distinguish America from what had come before.

NK: Annie Polland thank you so much.

AP: Thank you.

KG: Annie Polland is the executive director of the American Jewish Historical Society. We reached her in New York.

[Music]

Dorothy

KG: When a pot of rice "burst into flames" on the stove top, Dorothy knew she was in trouble. But for the 15-year-old the trouble wasn't that she almost set the house on fire -- the trouble was that she was distracted on YouTube when the rice and her mom's patience boiled over. Dorothy -- who also runs an Arianna Grande fan club -- broke the news to her Twitter followers after the incident. Quote, "I'm leaving forever. My mom took my phone. I'll miss you all so much. I'm crying. Goodbye." Devastating. But then a glimmer of hope. Some of her thousands of followers noticed that the phoneless tweet was sent via Dorothy's Nintendo 3DS game console. It appeared that through the tears, the grounded but resourceful teen was already scavenging for other smart devices in the house that she could use to outsmart her mom. 10 minutes later another tweet. But this time, from mom. She'd discovered the Nintendo loophole. Fearless, Dorothy bided her time and then finally another tweet -- this time from her Wii U game console. Quote, "Hey guys. OMG. My mom is at work so I'm looking for my phone. Wish me luck. Love you." The search for the phone failed. And to make matters worse, it appeared that Dorothy no longer had access to her arsenal of Wi-Fi connected gaming consoles. There was a period of silence. Dorothy's followers waited with bated breath. Then against all odds, the tweet finally came, quote, "I do not know if this is going to tweet. I'm talking to my fridge. What the heck. My mom confiscated all of my electronics again." In an act of desperation and astonishing resilience, Dorothy was tweeting from her family's LG smart refrigerator. Kudos to you Dorothy. You don't know how to cook rice but when it comes to staying connected to your online companions you're a pro -- even when bereft of your own devices.

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August 14, 2019 Episode Transcript

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