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The AIH Transcript for August 12, 2019

Hosts: Nil Köksal and Karen Gordon

Prologue

NIL KOKSAL: Hello I'm Nil Koksal.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. And this is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

NK: On dangerous ground. Thousands of protesters flooded Hong Kong's international airport today after a weekend of violence in which police used rubber bullets and tear gas -- our guest was there today and is bracing for a crackdown.

KG: The truth is in there. Jeffrey Epstein appears to have killed himself in his jail cell this weekend while awaiting trial on new charges of sex trafficking -- now a lawyer for five of his accusers questions how such a high profile inmate wound up dead.

NK: There is such a thing as bad publicity. After being misidentified as the cancer survivor in an Andrew Scheer campaign video a Montreal-based actor finds herself the target of an online slugfest.

KG: One old soul to another. Yesterday, 19-year-old Bianca Andreescu became the first Canadian in 50 years to win the Rogers Cup -- and impressed not only her opponent but the preceding Canadian champ as wise beyond her years.

NK: His nose may have been out of joint but not for long. Soccer superstar Mo Salah ensures the smile on a young fans face is bigger than the swelling just above -- after the 11-year-old runs into a post while chasing his soccer idol.

KG: And fuzzy reception. Even though they've been caught on video no one's been able to identify who's been depositing vintage TV’s on front porches in Virginia because whoever it is...is sporting one on their head while they do it. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio with no face for television.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'We are the chosen generation': Hong Kong airport protester says police brutality won't stop them

Hong Kong Protests

Guest: Nicholas Chan

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd Chanting]

KG: The sound of Cantonese protest slogans echoing through Hong Kong's International airport today. Thousands of protesters gathered near the arrival gate all day wearing black and greeting travelers with handwritten signs that read, "Hong Kong is not safe." It was the fourth and biggest day of protests at the airport and it prompted authorities to ground departing flights. Today's airport sit-in came after a weekend of chaos and violence. Activists accused police of using excessive force, tear gas, and rubber bullets at two underground train stations. And there were reports of some protesters throwing petrol bombs at the police. Nicholas Chan is a 24-year-old protester who was born and raised in Hong Kong. And that's where we reached him.

NK: Nicholas you were at the airport all day. What was it like there?

NICHOLAS CHAN: I went to the airport at around 2:00 in the afternoon. And then when I arrived there's already a lot of people in their black shirts and people were peacefully sitting on the ground. And to be honest there are a lot more people than I expected because it's a Monday afternoon so people were supposed to go to work or go to school -- but as I know a lot of people took off because of what happened during the last weekend. When I was there the whole ground floor because our airport only has two floors and then the whole ground floor is covered with people already.

NK: Why did you feel it was so important to be there today?

NC: The reason why I think a lot of people went out today is because yesterday there was a series of very important and unacceptable incidents that happened related to the operation of the police. And first of all there were first aid girls who was helping out to take care of the wounded protesters -- and she got shot in her eye which as we found out now she is going to be blind permanently. And at the same time there is a reporter that found out that actually there were undercover police in the crowd that created the chaos which lead to arrest protesters. And then as the journalist was questioning them if they are actually police they refused to show their badge which is pretty shady. And also they released tear gas bomb inside a subway station. So it's like a series of crazy stuff that happened in one night. So I think that really causes a lot of anger and a lot of disappointment and a lot of emotions. So a lot of people wanted to respond in this way and so that's why they come out today.

NK: You mentioned how full it was on the ground floor of the airport. What else were you hearing and seeing there?

NC: To be honest it was really peaceful because I think a lot of people they respect the airport as a very important like an international location that really represent Hong Kong. But also observe that there were a lot of tourists coming in the arrival hall because the ground floor is the arrival hall. So actually people split roads for the tourists to pass through and then when they're passing through the protester they were distributing flyers and posters and also leaflets and also explaining and apologizing to the tourists who just came to Hong Kong and explaining to them what happened in Hong Kong during the past two months and at the same time why they're doing what they're doing right now.

NK: You clearly have the world's attention and you're talking to tourists one-on-one -- visitors in the airport there. What's the reaction from them been? Because I wonder if there's concerns not just backlash from officials and authorities and police there but from the people you're trying to get your message across to.

NC: I can see like some of them they are terrified because I don't know if they expected to have such a large crowd waiting for them at the arrival hall. But at the same time I feel like as we were talking to them because most of them there are like foreigners so they understand what we are trying to fight for. There are teams that had guided tourists to the bus station, to the taxi station, to make sure that they are able to really leave the airport and go to the city.

NK: Some authorities have been using words including radical or even terrorists to describe the protesters. What's your response to words like that being leveled against you?

NC: This is absolutely not accurate because what I saw and what I was a part of today is definitely not riots let alone terrorism. I think the government or the official who claim the protestors as terrorists should think of why in the first hand we have to react in this way. And when they are referring to terrorists I think they should be referring to their police because they're the ones who has been over abusing the power and at the same time over abusing their military forces. So that's why it caused us so many anger, it caused so many disappointment and at the same time unnecessarily casualties. So that's why a lot of people has to feel like they have the obligation to really come out and voice their opinion.

NK: This has been going on nearly three months now. How do you feel at this point in the process?

NC: To be honest like it's very mentally and physically draining because you know like we go to work on the weekdays and we have to come out on the street to protest on the weekends. But at the same time I think the more that I see more people I would say awakened the more encouraged that I think I get because every improvement comes with a cost. I would say we are the chosen generation. And then at the same time when we're chosen, we're responsible for something. So I would say like it comes with a cost but it's totally worthwhile.

NK: So you're not backing down, but are you worried that there's going to be an even deeper crackdown by police?

NC: From day one when the government -- the leadership -- decided that they're not taking full responsibility of it, they put the police and then the citizens in two opposite position which creates a lot of conflicts and at the same time division between the city. So I think the only resolution is the government to really step up and take full responsibility and at the same time they have to control the police. They have to set up the independent investigation in order to dig deep and see if they are abusing their power. And I think only through a very legitimate and at the same time very fair rule can eventually solve this whole situations.

NK: Nicholas thanks for this.

NC: Thank you.

KG: Nicholas Chan was in Hong Kong's International airport earlier today for the protests there. We reached him in Hong Kong. For more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Adina Katz

Guest: Adina Katz

KG: Federal Conservative Party leader Andrew Scheer recently posted a campaign video to social media capturing an impromptu run in with a voter in Toronto. Have a listen.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: Nice to meet you too.

ADINA: I'm Adina. A voter. I will be voting for you.

ANDREW SCHEER: Thank you very much. I appreciate your support.

ADINA: Very nice to meet you.

ANDREW SCHEER: Very nice to meet you too. I'd move around but I walked in a spot for the shot.

[Laughter[]

ADINA: How are you going to help our health care system?

ANDREW SCHEER: I just made an announcement.

ADINA: Oh are you?

ANDREW SCHEER: Yes.

ADINA: Oh okay.

ANDREW SCHEER: Increasing funding every year by at least 3 percent plus GDP. If GDP is higher than 3 it'll match that. Just signed a guarantee at Mt. Sinai Hospital here.

ADINA: This is so wonderful. I'm a cancer survivor.

ANDREW SCHEER: Oh my goodness.

ADINA: No. And I'm grateful for the care that I got in Ontario. I wish you good luck.

ANDREW SCHEER: Thank you.

ADINA: You have my vote and my husband's.

ANDREW SCHEER: Thank you very much. Thank you.

KG: The identity of that voter you just heard soon became a lightning rod for much online speculation. Then a left-leaning Twitter account called Alberta Resistance dropped a bombshell: 'Adina' was as they said a paid actor based in Montreal and her name was Adina Katz. Those initial tweets racked up more than 1000 likes and 600 shares before they were scrubbed from the platform. Scrubbed, because of Adina Katz wasn't the woman in the video. But that didn't stop the trolls. We reached Adina Katz in Montreal.

NK: Ms. Katz how did you learn you'd been drawn into the middle of this campaign video?

ADINA KATZ: My friend texted me and said that her husband saw weird tweets about me that aren't me. And then I went on Twitter and that's how I found out.

NK: What were people saying about you?

AK: They were calling me a liar, a terrible actress, an immoral person, an immoral actress -- that I am being paid to pass myself off as a cancer survivor. You know they started just cyber-stalking me and they plastered...I have other profiles -- acting profiles -- I am an actor, I do have an IMDb account, I've been in the news for some other shows and they took screenshots of that. I also teach improv in Montreal so they said, 'Oh! Are you just improvising this one too? We see that you teach improv.' And then once people were saying that it wasn't really me they were either just calling me a liar or they said nobody cares about you anyway -- you don't matter. And then they said like I'm more plump and heavier than the person in the video. Anyway like it was just out of control so much cruelty for something that I didn't even have anything to do with.

NK: And specifically on the issue of people saying that you're lying about having cancer. How did you deal with that?

AK: It was really hard to take that specifically because my father died of cancer, my two uncles died of cancer, I have friends who died of cancer, and of course I know other people who thankfully survived but still watch them struggle while they did have cancer. It was just really painful and it really struck a nerve for me.

NK: So you're trying as you look at this onslaught of trolling -- really -- online to try to tell people it's not you. But how did you go further to try to correct this misidentification?

AK: I did report the initial tweets and the account to Twitter but of course they let it go while they're investigating so it just kept on growing. And I just tried to help people to think critically and I just replied to their comments their tweets saying yes I am an actor, yes that is me in the profile that you're showing, but that is still not me in that video with Scheer so cut it out. And I just try to do it that way. I didn't know what else to do.

NK: Any response then from the Twitter account -- Alberta Resistance?

AK: Well first of all, their account is closed right now. I guess so many other people reported them and so they shut down the account. They gave some kind of apology and so did some other people such as honorable Marlene Jennings who tweeted it and Rob Silver. Those are high profile people who quickly tweeted it. But I'm not satisfied with their apologies because they're not really genuinely taking responsibility for their actions of one human to another or a group of humans to another. They sneak in 'oh but there was a resemblance or oh this party often does this -- the lying' and you know they just continue to use me as a pawn to either protect themselves or to say something nasty about the other parties. So I'm not really too satisfy it at all.

NK: And it wasn't just those high profile people. The interest in your social media profile skyrocketed because of this. Take me through what that looked like.

AK: So the graph on my Twitter analytics -- because I never was really using it before so it's like down, down, down -- and boom! You see it go up to 185,000 impressions over just this week. And I've had 25.2000 profile visits. I've been mentioned specifically around a 1000 times. It's just so crazy how quick this spread. And you know what it would have been a lot worse had my friend not texted me that night and had I not stayed up all night chasing after all these people who knows how much bigger this could have become.

NK: Has the true identity of the Adina who was in the video actually emerged? Do we know if she was a cancer survivor? Have you made any headway on that front?

AK: Not that I know of. And honestly I don't think it matters and it's not my concern. I mean there's just so much propaganda and fake news and this and that. But if people are really unhappy -- if politicians are possibly using actors or even having real people but they're following a script or anything like that just go to the politician and their party. Don't go for you know if it really is an actor...they're just doing their job. Like why is it even an issue? Just go after the politicians and not the actors. And she may be a person who really -- like I don't know and I don't think it matters -- even if they found it like they would just find something else to criticize, people will believe what they want to and continue to argue their points in this just blinded vision due to their political tribalism.

NK: Have you had any communication with Andrew Scheer or his campaign or the party about it?

AK: Not at all. And frankly whether I support him or not -- which I don't -- but people were saying well Andrew Scheer owes you an apology. I mean regardless of how much I may disagree with some of his policies or whatever, I still don't think it's necessarily his fault. He's not the one who implicated me. The Liberal Party and other people did. So why should he? I mean it'd be nice for them to reach out -- any kind of comfort or support coming from people is certainly welcome. But anyhow to answer your question, no -- I've heard nothing from them.

NK: You hinted a bit at this the election coming in the fall so much of the discourse or what appears to be discourse online is shared via Twitter and Facebook. What do you want to stress to people having lived inside something like this for the last several days?

AK: Right. I think people need to be really careful about what they're reading, what they're sharing, what they're saying, to make sure to base their opinions on what can come as close to fact as possible based on policies, based on what did they actually see in results of things changing in our government system and our social services or whatever the issues may be -- and to just be really careful about what they're reading and the twists that other people with ulterior motives put on what they're sharing.

NK: Ms. Katz thanks so much for your time.

AK: Thank you so much.

KG: That was actor Adina Katz. And we spoke to her at home in Montreal. For more on this story head to: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Bianca Andreescu Win

Guest: Faye Mlacak

KG: For the first time in half a century, a Canadian is victorious in a major tennis championship on home soil. Bianca Andreescu won the Rogers Cup yesterday after her opponent Serena Williams had to pull out with an injury. The 19-year-old won not far from her hometown of Mississauga in front of cheering friends and family. But someone else was watching with great interest: Faye Mlacak -- formerly Faye Urban, was the last Canadian to win the Rogers Cup...that was 50 years ago when it was known as the Canadian Open. And the Canadian Tennis Hall of Fame inductee -- now 74 -- is very impressed by what she saw. We reached Faye Mlacak in Toronto.

NK: Mr. Mlacak what did it mean to you to see Bianca Andreescu win the Rogers Cup?

FAYE MLACAK: Well it means a couple of things. First of all I think she is a very deserving person to win this. She has enormous gifts and a maturity that is well beyond her years. And she presents a complete package of what you need to be a champion. And I also think she has a maturity to be aware of what's going on around her and how what she's doing is important. I also think it's a great thing for Tennis Canada to have this 50 year thing over with. They've done such a good job of nurturing the development of junior players. And this year particularly you see the results of that in how many competitive young Canadians we have. And so the fact that it happened in this year is a real testament to the efforts that Tennis Canada has done to develop talent.

NK: There was a couple of extraordinary things about this match: it only lasted about 19 minutes -- certainly wasn't an ideal way to win, fair to say I think, with Serena Williams having to pull out. What did you make of all of those surprises in just such a short time?

FM: The only comment I can make was I think Bianca was going to win that either way. I think if that match had played out under any circumstances even Serena being fit and able to play, I think Bianca would have still won. So I think the result is what I kind of felt -- we were headed for anyway and it just happened this way.

NK: Take me back to when you won -- all of those years ago back when you were still Faye Urban. How do you remember that win?

FM: What I remember about that day -- since you follow sports you know that some days you have good days, some days you have bad days, some days everything is working for you, some days nothing. Well this was one of the good days. I remember playing well. I was quick to the ball. I wasn't sluggish. Things were going my way. I was able to hit the ball early and see it clearly. And so I was just so lucky that I had one of the good days on that day. And you know the next day it could have been a completely different story. It just happened to be my day.

NK: The sweet feeling of victory may not change in all of those decades but so much in the sport has changed since 1969. What was it like then?

FM: It was before the transition into money coming into the game. So you played on your own. Generally speaking you didn't have a coach travelling with you. You had some expense money come your way but there was no prize money and you relied on yourself a lot. I was sponsored by Tennis Canada for my air tickets and my expenses. So I was lucky being one of the top Canadians to get that support.

NK: What does it mean for an athlete to win at home?

FM: It's nice that the record was broken. What I think is more important -- well first of all Bianca is a story that's going to inspire young Canadians whether she won this or not. Like she's just an inspiring person and aspiring tennis player and I think no matter what career arc she had in this particular week it was going to be a full on inspiration for young people. What I like about this is for Bianca she checked off a box. It's always big to win your own country's championship like Brooke Anderson did in golf. I remember when Andy Murray won Wimbledon. It's always big to win your own. And what I like about it is no one has to ask Bianca this question anymore. She could just get on with all the other things she's going to accomplish because everybody wants to win their own championship.

NK: As you watched her play do you see similarities between Bianca Andreescu and yourself?

FM: Not too much. It's almost an impossibility to compare and I think it starts with the equipment. Do you play tennis?

NK: I did when I was in high school. I love to do it recreationally. Certainly not Roger's Cup level.

FM: No no. But what I was going to say, can you imagine what it would be like to have one of those heavy wooden rackets in your hand and try to hit the ball? Well that's what I played with. So right from the change that the equipment would make to the game everything is different. So it's almost impossible to compare because if you think of what it would be like wielding that heavy wooden racquet -- that changes the levels of the games to make it almost impossible to compare. This generation does everything better, faster, more efficiently, more professionally. When I see Bianca run around the corner and her speed, I don't see myself in that for sure. [Laughs]

NK: Have you had a chance to meet Ms. Andreescu yet?

FM: No. I would have had a chance today. I understand she wanted to. I would have had a chance today because I was invited to where she's going to be but unfortunately I have some health issues that wouldn't allow me to do that. So I'm hoping maybe another time. It would just be a delight you know to tell her what she means to the tennis scene and how inspiring she is.

NK: Well she might have something to say to you about what you meant to her and to tennis as well. I understand she knows all about you. What do you think about that?

FM: I'm very surprised at that. The fact that at such a young age she is even aware of some of the history I think is a wonderful attribute of hers.

NK: Ms. Mlacak thank you so much for chatting with me today.

FM: You're welcome.

KG: Faye Mlacak was until yesterday the last Canadian tennis player to have won the Rogers Cup. She was in Toronto.

[Music]

TVs on Porches

KG: Sure, the product might be a little dated but it's totally free. As is the door-to-door delivery which is unbelievably speedy. It's so fast that the vintage TV sets have been arriving on customers front porches in Henrico County, Virginia before they even know they want them. If that sounds a little too good to be true it's because like much of what TV itself has to offer -- it is. The recipients of the old tube televisions aren't exactly customers and most of them are very sure that they don't want them. But that hasn't deterred the overnight deliverer or deliverers for one second. He or she or they -- have, to date, deposited more than 50 television sets on the doorsteps of unsuspecting residents. I can't be more specific about the identity of the person or persons depositing the TV because at this point no one can -- not even the police. Video captured by residents' doorbell cameras shows the TV deliverer wearing a hollowed out television on their head. Most of the residents chalk it up to some nonsensical mid-summer prank. The police who spent about an hour yesterday collecting the unwanted TV's from around the neighbourhood seemed to concur. Meanwhile Dr. Hans Waschbar -- an animal behavioral scientist at Virginia Tech has an out-of-the box theory: Raccoons. He says this may be one of the many emerging signs that the animals have undergone rapid evolution and are now carrying out sophisticated antics on the human population. I'm kidding about that last part -- about the raccoons. It's totally made up. But if you ask me also made-for-TV.

[Music]

Part 2: Jeffrey Epstein's accusers feel 'cheated' by his death in prison, says lawyer

Jeffrey Epstein Latest

Guest: Jack Scarola

KG: Disappointment. Anger. Disbelief. Jeffrey Epstein's alleged victims are not mourning his death but they are shaken nonetheless. The financier and convicted sex offender appears to have killed himself over the weekend while in custody at the Metropolitan Correction Centre in Manhattan. He was arrested last month on new federal sex trafficking charges that could have put him behind bars for 45 years. Speaking in New Orleans earlier today U.S. Attorney General William Barr addressed reports that prison guards assigned to Jeffrey Epstein's unit were working extreme overtime in the lead-up to his death.

SOUNDCLIP

WILLIAM BARR: We are now learning of serious irregularities at this facility that are deeply concerning and demand a thorough investigation. The FBI and the Office of Inspector General are doing just that. We will get to the bottom of what happened and there will be accountability. But let me assure you that this case will continue on against anyone who was complicit with Epstein -- any co-conspirators should not rest easy. The victims deserve justice and they will get it.

KG: U.S. Attorney General William Barr speaking in Louisiana today. Jack Scarola is an attorney representing five unnamed women accusing Jeffrey Epstein of trafficking and sexually abusing minors. We reached Mr. Scarola in West Palm Beach, Florida.

NK: Mr. Scarola what are you hearing from your clients since the news of Jeffrey Epstein's death broke this weekend?

JACK SCAROLA: Well there are multiple reactions. They are disappointed that once again they have been cheated out of an opportunity to see Jeffrey Epstein held appropriately accountable by the criminal law for his actions. They certainly do not grieve his passing but they regret that information that he has that may contribute to holding others responsible for their participation in his crimes may have died with him. They are also very hopeful that as a consequence of his death there may be others who were reluctant to speak earlier who will now be willing to come forward.

NK: The question of how this could have happened -- Mr. Epstein was previously on suicide watch but wasn't at the time of his death. What's your sense of how such a high profile inmate could have taken his own life?

JS: All I know is what I have been reading in press reports and those press reports raise more questions than provide answers. It seems inexplicable to me that such a high profile individual who had obviously demonstrated a propensity towards suicide in the past could have been allowed to take his own life without substantial assistance. All of those in a position to have been responsible for supervising Epstein need to be carefully questioned and all of those in a position to supervise those who were responsible for direct observation need to answer a lot of questions.

NK: You think he had help.

JS: I think that there is a good reason to believe that Jeffrey Epstein did not do what he apparently did without significant assistance.

NK: Then there are the cases themselves. You represent five women who are accusing Jeffrey Epstein of abusing them. Three who filed civil suits against Mr. Epstein. And two who have been fighting to see his 2008 plea deal which was agreed to by Alexander Acosta thrown out. What can you tell me about your client's allegations?

JS: I can tell you in general that their allegations are virtually identical to the allegations that have been publicly reported from dozens of underage victims. The circumstances of their recruitment, the scheduling of their appointments with Epstein, the identity of others involved -- all comport with the accounts that have been publicly reported. Those accounts are corroborated by documentary evidence and there appears to be mounting testimonial evidence from third parties to corroborate what had gone on for an extended period of time and which in all likelihood was continuing to go on right up until the time of Epstein's death.

NK: So what does justice look like now for your clients Mr. Scarola?

JS: It looks like setting aside the non-prosecution agreements that never should have been entered into in the first place. It includes a continued prosecution of anyone else involved in Epstein's criminal conduct. Justice includes compelling former cabinet member Acosta to give a full accounting as to how this non prosecution agreement ever could have been entered into because the story that he has told up to this point in time about a lack of evidence is simply false. It includes requiring the local prosecutor in Palm Beach County to explain the decisions that were made at the local level to allow Jeffrey Epstein to enter a plea to minor charges and to permit him to be sentenced to an extremely lenient penalty. It requires an explanation from the Palm Beach County Sheriff Ric Bradshaw about how Jeffrey Epstein was allowed to serve his "time" under such unusual circumstances -- open cell doors, a new TV installed, 12-hours of "work release" six days a week frequent trips to his home, shopping excursions while he's supposed to be in jail. Justice includes an answer to all of those questions from all of those officials.

NK: Beyond answers and accountability Mr. Scarola, Jeffrey Epstein was of course very wealthy. Is there a hope among your clients and the other accusers that they may see some restitution?

JS: Some of my clients have already prosecuted civil claims against Jeffrey Epstein and have settled those monetary claims on confidential terms. Others have not. But for all of them this has never primarily been about money. It has been about vindication. It has been about making sure that power and dollars do not eye the kind of treatment that was afforded to Jeffrey Epstein. And they are still hopeful that ultimately the system will be found to work the way the system was intended to work.

NK: Mr. Scarola thank you for your time.

JS: You're welcome.

KG: Jack Scarola is an attorney who represents five of Jeffrey Epstein's accusers. We reached him in West Palm Beach, Florida. For more on this story visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Encore: Manus Island Book Award

KG: When Behrouz Boochani accepted a 25,000 dollar Literary Prize today in Australia, one thing was missing at the awards ceremony: Mr. Boochani himself. The Iranian-Kurdish refugee, now in his sixth year in detention on Manus Island, delivered his acceptance speech remotely via WhatsApp. He was receiving the National Biography Award. And it's the fourth major Australian literary prize he's won this year alone. His autobiography, "No Friend but the Mountains" is getting accolades worldwide for its descriptions of daily life in Australia's notorious offshore detention centre. In June, Carol spoke to Behrouz Boochani for a feature chat. Here's an encore of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Behrouz, first of all, can you just describe what it's like around you right now?

BEHROUZ BOOCHANI: You know, right now, everyone is sleeping around me. So we are living in this camp. So I don't know how to describe this. So it is a place so it's a number of you know rooms. You know know at least 120 people are here. And this camp I am living in is one of the three camps on Manus Island. These days, I describe this place as a graveyard because everyone are just locked up in their rooms, and they don't come out. So they are depressed. We wake up you now witnessing some self-harm or suicide.

CO: Just to tell our listeners that sometimes we can't hear you properly because you are talking to us from inside the detention camp. And it's remarkable that we have this connection at all. You have been in what you describe in your book, and in your messages you have been sending out, you are living in unimaginable conditions there. How has that changed you?

BB: You know, it is a really hard question that I answer because you know over the past six years I just have been struggling. So sometimes some people ask me that what do you do when you get freedom? I say I don't know. Perhaps I will just sleep. You know, what is important for me is to survive. And I am struggling to survive. I don't know how to answer this question that how you know living in a situation like this has changed me. But you know I think six years is enough to change anyone.

CO: You have described the effect it's had on other people that you meet there in your book and in your texts. You describe how people have cut themselves. They’ve set themselves on fire, people who have been beaten by the jailers there — the Australians — who keep them there. Women have been raped. There was a girl who sewed her lips together, a child who stitched a heart into a hand. All of these things that people do to keep themselves together. And why was it important to you to document the stories of these other people in the camp?

BB: You know what is important for me you know in this book and other of my works, I always try to describe how life is inside this prison camp. What is systematic torture means. And it is a main concept that I focused on this systematic torture. So when I say systematic torture, many people they say that what is systematic torture means? So I think I cannot tell this you know describe these and tell this tragedy through journalism language. So that's why I wrote this novel to bring the readers to inside the prison camp. So when someone cuts himself or herself, it's not a simple thing, you know? Just imagine a person who has been in this indefinite detention for six years you know and lost hope. You know I think it is a very complicated issue. But now you know sometimes it's like a you know political message that people do that just to get attention from other people around the world to look at them that they are dying here. So they feel that they don't know any way but harming themselves. So I think it is you know sometimes it's like a political message.

CO: When you say torture, when you say that these people suffered torture, someone might think that means some conventional way of torture. But you describe torture as humiliation, as having to stand in line for ever for food, and then they don't have food, and they laugh at you when you get to the front of the line when there's nothing to eat. How the toilets don't work, and there is a smell all the time. And that there's people around you who need health care, and they have no health care for those people. That it's the grinding down — the humiliating — of taking away all their hope that is the torture that you're describing, isn't it?

BB: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So when I say torture, mainly I mean the humiliation, you know? When a system treating you in a way to take your identity, take your humanity, and reduce you to just a number, and take your individuality, I think it is a big torture. And another thing I would like to mention is that when you are living in detention, and you don't know how many years you should live in a situation like this, how many years it will take. And when you get the freedom, when you get off of this island, and also you don't know where. Where do you end up finally? So I think it is a big torture. And when you think, and when you believe, and it is true that you are an innocent person, just you seek asylum to Australia, and you committed no crime, and they keep you in this indefinite detention for six years. And they steal your life — they have control on your life. And they are treating you like a terrorist, like a criminal, while you are only a simple person like other people around the world. I think it is a big torture, you know? One of the main question that the people in Manus Island all ask. And actually it is my question for years and years that what is my crime? What is my crime?

CO: You are a refugee. You were seeking asylum after you left Iran. You were a journalist, a writer, in your Kurdish language in Iran. You had to flee Iran because it was too dangerous for you. You would be arrested for just the fact that you were writing. That's why you're a refugee. Now, you are a refugee in an Australian detention camp in Papua New Guinea, and it's writing that you have turned to give yourself hope, is that right?

BB: Yeah. You know I say that you know first I would like to mention something about my background. You know I was working as a writer journalist in Iran. So you know I left Iran because I didn't want to live in prison you know to waste the rest of my life in prison. And I seek asylum to a country with a liberal democracy structure, and they jailed me. So that is interesting. And why did I leave Iran, you know? A part of it because I didn't accept that religious dictatorship system. So now, I'm in between religious dictatorship system, which is Iran, and the fascist Western system, which is Australia. So where should I go? But about the writing, so it is not only the writing, you know? Creating art writing for me first is an act of resistance because I can survive through writing and creating.

CO: I'm speaking with Behrouz Boochani about his book “No Friend But The Mountains.” And Behrouz, this book is beautiful. It has poetry. It has amazing stories. Sometimes you are a war reporter, working as a journalist in that zone. Other times you’re writing poetry, writing art. But you had to send this entire book — this is 400 pages. It was all sent out in texts and tweets that you sent outside. Why was that? Why couldn't you write it all down as one text?

BB: Actually, I didn't feel safe with the authorities because you know any time it was possible that they come and take my phone or take my writing and my papers, so that's why. Because they already attacked our room. Sometimes, they just suddenly attack, and take our properties. You know after three years, we could have access to phone. But before that, we didn't have this right. So we had to hide our phones that we smuggled them. You know my phone, I smuggle it with you know the local people who were working inside the prison camp. So I smuggled the phone, I brought it in, and I started to work. So that's why it was dangerous. I didn't want to lose my works.

CO: The stories and the writing in this book are filled with despair, you are filled with despair, and yet, something about writing I think gives you hope. That if you don't have hope, why are you telling us this story? Why do you want to reach the outside world with your story? You must at some place in yourself believe that this is not the end that there is something after this?

BB: What is important for me is that we teach the young generation. Right now that I'm talking with you, this book actually in some of the universities in Australia and internationally are teaching this book to the students. And I think that is really important. And this six years, so far, is a part of Australian history. And it is a part of the human history. So that's why I think it's important that I record this for that history to teach the young generation. And, hopefully, the next generation don't do it again. So I feel that while I'm writing and creating, I am alive.

CO: You write at one point. This is what you say, this issue must be understood as the annihilation of human beings, the incarceration of human beings within the history of modern Australia. This writing that comes out of Manus is the unofficial history of Australia — a history that will never be authorized by the government. It is the suppressed history, the marginalized history. This is the history from down below. In the end, this is a history book, isn't it?

BB: Yeah, we can say that it is a book about history. And you know actually we cannot reduce this book to only the historical category. And even we cannot put this book as a part of prison literature. So I think this book is with different kind of layers. It is about justice. It is about freedom. A part of it is about Kurdish culture and Kurdistan history. It is about Australia. So we cannot reduce this book to just put it on only one frame.

CO: You have been texting and tweeting. As you say, you've had a film about what's going on in Manus Island that you shot on your phone. You have won Australia's highest literary honour for your book. You've published dozens of articles. What would it take to have people care? What would it take for Australians to actually decide that this can't go on any longer?

BB: Yeah, definitely. So the people of Australia cannot say that they don't know or on future, they cannot say that we didn't know, you know? Everyone should know because there is hundreds of articles, you know? There are books, movies, so that they cannot say that we don't know or we didn’t know. But what I want to say is that you know, unfortunately, fascism and fascism culture make people blind. So people cannot see the reality. Make people cruel. So that's why I think a big part of the Australian society don't care, although, a big part of the Australian society really they stand up for humanity, and they are fighting against this barbaric policy.

CO: This week it was announced that there are more displaced people in the world than there have been since the Second World War. That is there are 70-million people who have fled violence, war persecution, and about half of them are refugees like you. It seems it's not just Australia that is ignoring the plight of so many people. What is the message you want people to take away from this book?

BB: You know first, I would like to ask people because the book released in Canada and America just last week. So first, I would like to ask people just to read this book. And don’t scare to read this book. Because many people in Australia, they say that we bought the book, but we are scared to read it. People should don't be scared to see the reality, to see truth. Also, this book is not like you know some part of it is funny. So people are able to enjoy. But regarding you know the current situation in the world, I think it is the time that people show some compassion. But, unfortunately, many the governments around the world they encourage people to don't show compassion. So that's why I think it's important that people understand this: that we should keep all our values and humanity and principle and morality.

CO: Behrouz, I know it is very late, and I can't imagine the conditions in which you will now sleep. But I think this is a remarkable book, and it's a great honour to speak with you. Thank you.

BB: Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Thank you.

CO: Goodnight.

BB: Goodnight.

KG: That was Behrouz Boochani in conversation with Carol in June. Mr. Boochani is an Iranian-Kurdish refugee who's now entered his sixth year in detention on Manus Island. Today he was awarded Australia's 25,000 dollar National Biography Prize for his autobiography "No Friend but the Mountains."

[Music]

Louis Fowler

KG: 11-year-old Louis Fowler is wearing his busted up nose like a badge of honor. Over the weekend the Liverpool FC fan was trying to catch a glimpse of soccer star Mo Salah, as he left practice in his car. Fowler was so focused, that he ran into a lamp post -- knocking himself out. But when the Egyptian player saw what happened he was determined to turn the boy's day around. Here is Louis Fowler telling the story to the BBC.

SOUNDCLIP

LOUIS FOWLER: So Mo Salah comes out of his car. And sometimes they stop and we run after them or sometimes they stop anyway so I ran with my brother. And because I was like in my excitement I wasn't focusing on what was in front of me. I was obviously looking to the left because that was where Mo Salah's car was. And then obviously I ran into a lamppost. I think Mo Salah felt bad and he pulled over. I think he was worried about me. Mo Salah just came driving with his car to our close and then we walked out of our garden and Mo Salah like checked out if I was okay -- he was really worried about me and then we got pictures and it was great but it was also not the best because of my nose.

[Laughter]

REPORTER: What do you think of Mo Salah? What car does he drive?

LOUIS FOWLER: A Bentley.

REPORTER: Does he? So the Bentley went into your close.

LOUIS FOWLER: Yeah.

REPORTER: What do you think of the fact that he came back and got out of his car, checked on you, had pics?

LOUIS FOWLER: I think that's like really kind-hearted of him. It's a great choice. I love him very much because he's amazing.

KG: That was 11-year-old Liverpool FC fan Louis Fowler speaking with BBC host Victoria Derbyshire about his run-in with his hero, soccer star Mo Salah.

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August 12, 2019 Episode Transcript

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