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The Current Transcript for August 8, 2019

Host: Laura Lynch

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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[Music: Theme]

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VOICE 1: We have a very stark choice. We either change our food system to manage all the coming challenges or we suffer the consequences which will be periods of great food insecurity.

LAURA LYNCH: The warnings are dire. The way we eat, the way we produce the food we eat are threatened by climate change. A new report foresees increasing problems that will lead to millions going hungry leading to a new wave of migration in search of something to eat. We're starting there this morning by speaking with two Canadian farmers about the lay of the land. After that.

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PATRICK SUMNER: A lost soul. I'm the guy that was wrongfully accused in the death Kerrie Brown in 1986.

LL: Patrick Sumner is the only person ever arrested in connection with the death of Kerrie Brown in northern Manitoba. Decades ago today on the final episode of the CBC podcast Someone Knows Something, Sumner surfaces and speaks to David Regine about the case, his arrest and subsequent release. Also for a real change of pace today we will get the barest of facts about Canada's oldest nudist club and why members had to speak in code when it first opened. I'm Laura Lynch and this is the Summer Edition of The Current.

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These Canadian farmers are changing their habits to rein in global warming

Guests: Kevin Petrie, Megz Reynolds

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JAMES SKEA: A move to more balanced diets could help us adapt to and limit climate change. Some diets require more land and water and lead to higher emissions than others. For example, diets that are high in grains, nuts and vegetables have a lower carbon footprint than those that are high in meat and they lead to better health outcomes. But of course, dietary choices are influenced by local production practices and cultural habits.

LL: And that was James Skea, the co-chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change or IPCC. That group released a major report on the effect of Land Management including food production on climate change yesterday. The numbers might surprise you. Land use - including agriculture and forestry - now contributes 23 percent of all human caused greenhouse gas emissions. To turn that around the report is calling for changes to both how the land is managed and what we choose to put on our plates. Our producer Allie Jaynes went to a farmer's market in Toronto yesterday to ask people what they're thinking about when it comes to what they eat and its effect on climate change.

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VOICE 1: We've got a lot of stuff from farms and stuff, local farms. And we get like ethically sourced meat.

VOICE 2: I try to eat more vegetarian now after seeing how much the cattle industry hurts the environment.

VOICE 3: I'm from a developing country where there is a scarcity of food. But here in the developed country, in Canada, I think we waste a lot.

VOICE 4: I don't think we're at the point where we can pick and choose anymore. Like, it's gotten to the point where we do have to take drastic action. We do have to make radical changes to our lifestyle in order to try and right the ship.

LL: It's not just consumers. This is an issue Canadian farmers have been thinking a lot about and we've asked two of them to share their thoughts on what role agricultural practices here at home can play. Kevin Petrie is the head farmer at Chef Michael Smith's The Inn at Bay Fortune in Prince Edward Island. That's where we reached him today and Megz Reynolds is a grain farmer from Saskatchewan. She is in Kyle, Saskatchewan. Hello to you both.

MEGZ REYNOLDS: Good morning Laura.

KEVIN PETRIE: Good morning, thanks for having me.

LL: Kevin, let's start with you. When you see a report like this calling for a major overhaul on how we manage land, what do you think?

KEVIN PETRIE: I think the first thing that comes to me is that this is a great step in the right direction. I mean I think we all know that obviously the reduction of carbon emissions is a big step forward and something that we've talked about originally but that there's a bigger issue here. I think some of it stems deeper into our social-economic systems. I think that we're realizing now that we need to make a greater changes into our subtle choices, especially when it comes to food and how we use food and the potential waste we have in our own kitchens and our own restaurant industries that can make an impact on this.

LL: Megz Reynolds, what do you think?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: I would like to echo Kevin's points about the waste. You know we have a food distribution system that's come out of the 50s and we have about 60 percent waste throughout that system. But on the flip side, Canada's actually kind of leading the front on agriculture, whether that's broad acre farming or ranching as well. So what we're seeing in Canada, what we've done on our own as producers is actually what this report is already calling for.

LL: You to run very different kinds of operations. Kevin Petrie, tell us a bit about the farm that you oversee.

KEVIN PETRIE: Yeah. I think the farm we have here at The Inn Bay Fortune first and foremost the culinary farm. I'm very lucky to grow in a situation where we grow for food that goes into restaurants and has chefs... utilize these ingredients onto the menu every single night. But I also see it as a opportunity to educate our chefs. It's a great educational farm here where, for me, the biggest thing that I see in coming across this industry is that chefs are the trendsetters. They're the ones who allow the industry to move forward and the food that we eat on a daily basis in our own lives, and having the chefs to learn about the process of what it takes to grow an ingredient, to have them understand that process is a huge thing. I want to our chefs to come out here, work on the farm with me and understand that, hey you know what an ingredient isn't as a commodity. We can't use them to use these ingredients. That they need to be respected and it's a resource that should be maintained. So having them come work on the farm, understand that process is a big thing for us and it's a great way for us to catch our chefs to this ideology of food waste we have in the industry.

LL: Megz Reynolds, you run a much larger operation. What do you grow?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: This year we have large green lentils, duruhm wheat, barley, flax and some sunflowers in for oils production.

LL: And how big is the farm?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: We're 28 hundred.

LL: That's substantial. Okay. So do you do something called "no till planting"? What is that? And how does that affect carbon emission?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: So the only time that we disturb the soil on our operation, and in a lot of operations across Saskatchewan and Canada, are when we seed into it. The rest of the time we're not turning that soil, we're not working that soil. And what we're doing by doing that method of farming is we are allowing our organic matter to build in the soil and that sequesters more carbon. And also makes our soil healthier, it allows us to absorb and store more moisture and allows us to create more off of the land that we have because as a farmer it's extremely important, you know, our soil is our biggest resource and we need to be able to have it as healthy as it is so that we can do the best job possible.

LL: So when this report says land use, including agriculture, accounts for 23 percent of human greenhouse gas emissions, do you actually see room for reducing that?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: I would say that we always have room for pushing to be more sustainable and for improving our practices. But I would also like to talk about the fact that in Canada the beef industry only accounts for 2.4 percent of our country's GHG emissions. And so it's very important to acknowledge that there's a huge difference between Canadian raised beef and beef that's raised worldwide. So in Canada they're using vast amounts of green lands that are not suitable for other types of our agriculture and they're also reusing products that are coming out of breweries or distilleries or ethanol production or grains that are not fit for human consumption...

LL: As opposed to other parts of the world?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: Exactly. You know, we're not defrosting large areas to have beef cattle here. Our beef producers are actually working with the trees and natural prairie grasses and so they're sequestering more carbon by doing that and protecting those lands as carbon sequestration areas. And then when we come over to the grain side, so we have done a huge amount of change since the late 80s where we went through a large drought cycle. So that's when we really got into no-till farming and we started to rotate our crops more. So we're on a four year rotation. So what is growing in the field is going to be four years before that same crop grows in the field, and that's when we started really introducing things like pulses or lentils in our peas. And those are actually plants that produce their own nitrogen and put that back into the soil. So that allows us to use less fertilizer moving forward. We also soil sample and by doing that we know exactly what is in our soil, what is available to the crop that we're trying to grow and it's basically like creating a recipe for a cake. So then we know what to put down with that product so that we can use as little fertilizer as possible.

LL: OK.

MEGZ REYNOLDS: We're using G.P.S. on our equipment so we're doing the minimum amount of passes required so we're using less fuel. Our equipment has emission controls on our engines just like in the vehicles that we're now seeing.

LL: Right. Okay. I want to switch over to Kevin now. I mean Kevin, a lot of this report looks at the other parts of the world and what is going on there but I'm wondering how farmers on Prince Edward Island have had to adopt practices in the face of climate change?

KEVIN PETRIE: Well I think it's the system that every farmer across the world or across Canada is dealing with as well, that climate change, the factors are that... it's a harder system. The climate's more unpredictable every year and because of that we're having to change our practices. On a small scale farm like ourselves we do operate a low-till sustainable farming system and the ability to cover our ground are a big portion of that. Greenhouses and cat-tunnels are a thing that we've had to switch over to to allow us to adapt to these systems and protect ourselves against some of these changing climatic conditions. But to be honest with you there's actually a big movement on the island now as well to the pulse growth as well. It's big portion that because of climate change changing our systems out here, it's now more favourable to grow these kind of crops on the island and therefore allowing us to sequential those nitrogens back into the soil, do better production on those on those fronts and change how we're farming and what we're farming in order to provide us with a more environmentally friendly system.

LL: And that leads into the next thing I want to talk about and that is that the report focuses on consumer choices. The authors say they don't want to tell people what to eat but then they go on to say a more plant based diet might actually help mitigate the effects of climate change. I just want you to listen to a bit of tape from those shoppers at the Toronto farmer's market.

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VOICE 3: I am a big fan of meat but recently I started eating a lot of fish and vegetables which you need to just learn some recipes [to] make those tasty. And could be a good replacement of meat.

VOICE 5: When you do eat less meat you feel better.

VOICE 1: I'd probably cut out meat for more like an ethical reason, but I guess if it's sustainable too then that could happen.

VOICE 2: I do sort of eat more vegetarian but I'm not really prepared to give up all the meat in my life. [laughs] Yeah, it's kind of like I'm aware of it but I'm maybe a bit too selfish at the moment. But if it really became drastic, yeah I would.

LL: Kevin Petrie, you work... with the restaurant, how open are people to cutting out meat?

KEVIN PETRIE: Well I think it's an interesting thing. Of course in our industry, the restaurant industry, meat's a huge portion or proteins themselves or a huge portion of what we utilize on the menu systems every night. And it's funny. What we try to practice here a lot is to introduce our guests to different style of protein. Different things that can utilize, different cuts of meat and how we can represent using the whole force... faction of the animal to allow us to reduce our impact of waste of the kitchen. But you'd be surprised. And I think the largest thing is a lack of education around is that people that don't understand what choices they have or what resources they can maintain of these ingredients. And for us here at The Inn it's a huge portion of what we're trying to do. We tried to educate our guests when they come to the property about the different styles of farming, of course, in terms of our vegetable production and the ability for us to view them differently and therefore reduce the waste coming off our vegetable farm. But also look at the meat differently. Look at the mussels, the bivalves are a fantastic resource that have a lot less of an economic impact and a lot less of a environmental impact in terms of its production of greenhouse gas emissions. So it's one of those big things that I think we're noticing that people are willing to change, [they] just need to know where and what direction to change into.

LL: Megz, climate change is such a bigger issue. What role would you like to see Canadian farmers play in the solution going forward?

MEGZ REYNOLDS: Well I think we've already started that trend where we are exporting technology and equipment around the world to help other producers be more sustainable. A lot of the no-till equipment is actually coming out of and being manufactured in Saskatchewan. But I think just to keep the conversation going because in what I see us doing is that agriculture is part of the solution. But again, like Kevin said, this comes back to working with consumers because they're there what are driving those trends and to let them know as part of that conversation what we're doing, how we're doing it, what we are doing in Canada. What I'm doing on my farm is sustainable and that's something I will keep pushing towards. And to know what ingredients are coming out and to try to to support those. Like, lentils are a great protein but beef raised in Canada is also a great sustainable protein choice.

LL: Kevin Petrie, 30 seconds left. What do you think?

KEVIN PETRIE: I have to agree with Megz as well. I think that this comes down to a partnership between farmers to create the potential for growth and what we want to do and how we want to grow but also the responsibility of the consumer to vote with their dollar, to allow us to realize that hey there is different choices we can make here, make those choices and the market will develop itself around those new choices you make and therefore we can all make a benefit on the system together.

LL: All right I thank you both for your time today.

KEVIN PETRIE: Thank you so much.

MEGZ REYNOLDS: Thank you.

LL: Kevin Petri is the head farmer at Chef Michael Smith's The Inn at Bay Fortune in Prince Edward Island and Megz Reynolds as a grain farmer. She was in Kyle, Saskatchewan.

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Canada's oldest nudist club is marking its 80th anniversary

Guests: Daniel Jackson

LL: I'm Laura Lynch and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. Well we come into this world naked ad for one group of Vancouver lights. That's the way they'd like to remain... well at least some of the time. This weekend the Van Tan Club - Canada's oldest Nudist Club - is celebrating 80 years of letting it all hang out. Daniel Jackson is the public relations officer for the Van Tan Club. He joins me from our Vancouver studio. Hello and happy anniversary!

DANIEL JACKSON: Well thanks Laura. It's... quite a milestone. Things have changed quite a bit in the last 80 years, haven't they?

LL: Yeah I guess so! And I want to talk about that, but first I just want to ask you how the club is planning to celebrate this weekend?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well you know, of course we're hoping for good weather and that looks a little iffy right now. But there's a full day of events planned. There's gonna be a pig roast, they'll be lawn games. There is possibility of karaoke but of course the number one thing up at the Van Tan Club will be relaxation.

LL: [laughs] And so you have you always been in North Vancouver?

DANIEL JACKSON: Yeah. That was the original location since 1939. We've been there since that time.

LL: And tell me about it. How did you find the spot?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well the story goes there was a group of skeet shooters called the "Millionaires Club" and they were probably making a bit too much noise for their fledgling community of Lynn Valley so the club's founders Edward Lansdowne and Ray Connett picked up the property and it's been in the family since.

LL: And now thinking about this opening in 1939 certainly societal mores were a bit different there in norms. How difficult would it have been to advertise this kind of a club back then?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well you're right. I mean people can now see us on Google Earth and they can find all of the the things they need to find out. But in the early days of the naturist movement people connected through cryptic entries and coded words placed in classified ads. And once you got kind of into that introduction you might be on a mailing list, and in those days the early naturists around the world would communicate through their own mail outs and generally word of mouth. But you can imagine how difficult that would be trying to, you know, find people who are sympathetic yet qualified to join the movement. Different times for sure.

LL: Do you have any examples of that kind of coded language?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well it's almost like a secret handshakes. And again, the the word "gymnosophical" shows up.

LL: Pardon me?

DANIEL JACKSON: Yes. The word "gymnosophical" which I think is originated from the Greek. And that was a word that was used in code to kind of connote that there was a nudist or a naturist flavour to the to the entry in the classified ads.

LL: Excuse my ignorance but what does that mean?

DANIEL JACKSON: Huh. Jim knows. I think the body. "Gymnosophical" may be you know the study of the body, something like that. You'll you'll have to cross to fact check that one for me.

LL: [laughs] So clearly... the club wasn't only attracting naturists. They were attracting pretty intelligent naturists to the club.

DANIEL JACKSON: Well it's curious you would say that because the members at our club and other clubs around really do cut across all demographics. You've got people who are quite open about it and you've got people who would rather their privacy was assured. But once the clothes are off everybody is equal and the same and we don't tend to let our business and our our lives from the town infiltrate the wonderful environment of peace and quiet we have up at the club.

LL: Yes. I understand that you only use first names.

DANIEL JACKSON: Generally that's been a custom. And of course when people get to know each other you become aware, more or less, of where they come from and what they do. But generally accepted the custome first names and you don't talk about your job so respecting people's privacy.

LL: So what first attracted you to the club?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well I was lucky to grow up in Kitsilano in the 1970s. Things were pretty open and it was actually a cool place to go, Wreck Beach. And so it was a little edgy as a teenager not to hang out at Kits Beach but to go with your friends to Wreck Beach.

LL: Which is Vancouver's infamous or famous nudist beach.

DANIEL JACKSON: Absolutely legendary. And over the years it's probably the the first stop for people who want to have a go.

LL: OK. So tell me who your longest serving members are.

DANIEL JACKSON: Well we've got a couple. Christine and Bill they were involved in the public relations of our club so they don't mind their names being used. They've done many, many interviews over the years and they joined 40 years ago, and so that's half the life of the club they've witnessed. And Christine is our club historian and I believe she served just about every role on our on our executive as well.

LL: And how does she say things have evolved over the years?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well like any community or any group, there's definitely ups and downs. And so when you're in the middle of an up everything is as pleasant as can be but when you're in the middle of something that's a little off-centre these are the challenges that you face and-

LL: You're being cryptic again. What are you talking about?

DANIEL JACKSON: Yeah, well as you say, with membership peaking in the hundreds you get all kinds of personalities and sometimes you get disruptive personalies so you'll say well it's up to us to, you know, manage these situations and make sure that the club is a balanced and healthy place for for families and people of any persuasion. It's it's assured that that it's nothing salty going on.

LL: Right. You're talking about people who join up for the wrong reasons.

DANIEL JACKSON: Yeah. And I mean when somebody comes with intentions that aren't really aligned with naturist values it's fairly obvious within within a few moments that that's not really what they thought it was gonna be and you get some questions that are probably a little bit curious as to as to other agendas but people realize it's actually just quite boring. That folks are just sitting up there with their clothes off socializing and enjoying peace and privacy if that's what they wish.

LL: Boring. What is your [laughs] what is your favourite thing about it?

DANIEL JACKSON: Well you know, when you look back at a historical photograph you see that there was a lot of volleyball played and there was field sports, you know, petanque and horseshoes. But the number one recreation now for everybody would be relaxation. Fresh air. Life is busy enough down in the town that relaxation has to be the main thing that people do up there.

LL: Well I wish you a very happy and relaxing anniversary tomorrow. Have a good time!

DANIEL JACKSON: Yeah. Thank you very much. And thanks for the opportunity to kind of normalize what nudism and naturism is all about.

LL: Bye bye.

DANIEL JACKSON: Okay bye bye.

LL: Daniel Jackson is the public relations officer for the Van Tan Club and he is in our Vancouver studio.

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Free Trip to Egypt

TAREK MOUNIB: Everything.

HOST: Seriously?

TAREK MOUNIB: Yeah.

HOST: Airfare?

TAREK MOUNIB: Airfare.

HOST: Hotel?

TAREK MOUNIB: Hotel.

HOST: Nice hotel?

TAREK MOUNIB: Yeah. The first really powerful submission actually came as a result about talk show a woman by the name of Ellen.

ELLEN DECKER: Hi my name is Ellen Decker. I grew up in the 60s. I protested the Vietnam War, I protested racism, I protested everything that was intolerant and not liberal. And I raised my two boys to be the same way. I guess I did it really really good job. My older son is in Saudi Arabia. But when 9/11 happened I just lost it. The point is I'm so racist now. I can't stand myself. I even voted for Trump. I heard your broadcast and I thought that the only reason I would do this would be to make my son Michael very happy that I was at least, at least exploring the option of possibly accepting Muslims as people, I suppose he would say.

LL: That is an excerpt from the documentary Free Trip to Egypt. The woman you heard there was Ellen Decker making her case to travel overseas with filmmaker Tarek Mounib. Monday on The Current the two tell guest host Duncan McCue about the surprising ways this unlikely adventure altered the course of both of their lives.

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Someone Knows Something: Season 5, Episode 10

LL: Well this summer on The Current we've been playing some of the best of CBC original podcasts. And this week it's the latest season of Someone Knows Something. David Ridgen's investigation into the 1986 murder of teenager Kerrie Brown in Thompson, Manitoba. Today we reached the final episode. Patrick Sumner was arrested for Kerrie's murder but the charges were dropped before he ever went to trial. He's never spoken to the media to give his side of the story, until now. This is episode 10, "Sumner". And a warning, this episode contains mature and sometimes disturbing subject matter.

LL: Well this summer on The Current we've been playing some of the best of CBC original podcasts. And this week it's the latest season of Someone Knows Something. David Ridgen's investigation into the 1986 murder of teenager Kerrie Brown in Thompson, Manitoba. Today we reached the final episode. Patrick Sumner was arrested for Kerrie's murder but the charges were dropped before he ever went to trial. He's never spoken to the media to give his side of the story, until now. This is episode 10, "Sumner". And a warning, this episode contains mature and sometimes disturbing subject matter.

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TREVOR BROWN: I was at an apartment in Highland after Carrie died. And I'll be damned if Patrick Sumner doesn't walk in. I didn't know it at the time because of my eyesight and it was dark in the apartment. And it wasn't until Mike, Mike the proprietor of the apartment, tells me, 'Isn't that Pat?' And when I hear his voice and I hear that name I immediately put two and two together as I'm sitting in the same damn room as the guy who's been charged with my sister's murder. And I say to my buddy I gotta go. And he says what's wrong? It's like, I've got to go. And I walked out of the apartment and into the hallway and he said, 'What the hell's wrong?' I said, 'Don't you know who that is?'

DAVID RIDGEN: We know that Patrick Sumner was discharged and did not proceed to trial after his February 1987 Preliminary hearing for the first degree murder of Kerrie Brown. DNA testing does not appear to have linked Sumner to the scene or the murder. And I've discovered other possible suspects and avenues that may well have been overlooked. But it's still impossible for Trevor and perhaps many who have followed the case over the years to not suspect Patrick Sumner. Much less be in a room with him.

TB: Sumner I threatened to kill him once from a car. I was with my friends we're all in a parking lot. Chicken Chef. And he walked out with a girl that I was in high school with and I started yelling, 'Do you know that you're walking with a murderer?' Of course this is all based on what I believe to be true. And I said, 'I'm going to kill you.' And my friends would not let me out of the backseat of that car. I was angry. And as the closest I came to get my hands on him, I think. I used to have dreams about him. Fighting him. Wake up sweating. Hard. Yeah. I was sitting on anger. I internalized it. I still sit on it and I told you that I'm not a... I'm a pacifist but I have a special place inside there for these people, and it's not nice what I want to do to them.

DR: Well maybe uh you'll get a chance to ask all the questions that you have in your head.

DR: I'd like to speak to Patrick Sumner myself. Hear his story of the night Kerrie disappeared in the aftermath. Probe further. Does he know something? Was he there?

[Sound: David Ridgen enters Patrick Sumner's house. Sumner's dog scampers to the door]

DR: And just like that, because neither of us wanted Booker the dog to escape, I'm inside Patrick Sumner's house with the door closed. We're at the bottom of a flight of split level stairs and Booker is bustling and friendly at our feet.

DR: Patrick.

PATRICK SUMNER: Yeah.

DR: I'm David and I work for CBC. I wanted to see if you would help me out talking on the Brown case?

PS: Well not right now but I don't have a problem with that.

[Sound: Booker the dog is excited, running around and panting]

DR: Here's my card.

PS: Okay...

DR: Sumner seems agitated and not quite ready to deal with me so he turns away and walks down the stairs.

PS: It's called PTSD.

DR: PTSD?

ps: Go there every day, right?

DR: Yeah.

PS: So it doesn't go away.

DR: I follow him and we move into a room with a couple of couches, a bicycle leaning against one, blue dog blanket on the other and a large TV. There's a bedroom off to the right with a giant wolf's head image on the bedspread. Sumner heads left to a kitchenette and lights a cigarette. He's not very tall, about 5 foot 9 with blue eyes and a coarse light brown moustache. He puts on a pair of glasses and starts shuffling through some papers I see strewn across a small breakfast table.

DR: Whatcha looking for?

PS: Just a pile of stuff.

DR: Spread out on the table are various articles - copies and originals - about the Brown case. Sumner had no idea I was coming and I think these have been here for a while. Some are marked up with doodles and writing in the margins and highlighter.

PS: I've sort of marked it. It was sort of in here where I said and they did a thing. Oh I just had to sit in there because I'd been taking some notes.

DR: That's you writing that. Did you write that?

PS: I just wrote this other.

DR: What did you write?

DR: Sumner arguing back at the claims of the past 30 years in solitude.

PS: These are some other things. Here's a copy.

DR: You got a paper right here with a story on it. Can I take a picture of that?

[Sound: camera shutter clicks]

DR: One of the headlines I can see is from a photocopy of a Thompson newspaper dated March 1987 that reads "Sumner freed after preliminary hearing". The words "not her hair" are printed in blue ink with an exclamation mark.

DR: So this is a paper that you've marked up here.

PS: Oh yes, some I wrote in here. Her hair. They say- they're saying hair on a seat, which was not true. They heard the experts said they found was under the factory carpet.

DR: A hair that had some likeness to Kerrie's hair according to Maryland Simmons who said that information came out during the preliminary hearing.

PS: Because that's what was said in court. It was found under the factory carpet.

DR: Under the factory carpet of his car, implying that it would have been there from the date of manufacture. Detective John Tost told me that a crown witness testified that there were a number of hairs that were removed from the vehicle that were consistent with Kerrie Ann Brown, with her hair. But Tost also says he didn't actually hear this testimony because he was a witness himself and he acknowledged that hair analysis isn't always reliable.

PS: That's what I mean. These are lies that our newspaper printed.

DR: Back to the articles on Sumner's kitchen table.

DR: So what's this doing on your table you're just looking at this all the time?

PS: No I just had to sit in there because I've been taking some notes to remember. This is from March 2nd, '87.

DR: In another part of the same article, a section about a witness testifying is exed out in yellow and has the words "outright lie" printed underneath. A detail about stains the same blood type as Kerrie's is altered so that it now reads "Dad's T-shirt" instead of "Sumner's T-shirt".

PS: Sumner's shirt, which I wrote "Dad's" there, but it says Sumner's T-shirt during the hearing it was determined not my shirt, not her blood. Yet they still wrote it in the papers as though it was my shirt and her blood.

DR: According to Sumner a T-shirt was seised by the RCMP during a search of his home. It was discovered in his parents' laundry hamper and Patrick's mother told officers that it belonged to her husband. The shirt had blood on it but Sumner says it was his dad's blood caused by pimples on his back.

PS: My dad was quite a lot bigger than me at that time so [mumbles]... He was probably wearing extra large. It was his undershirt and he'd get pimples on his back.

DR: The article that Sumner has been marking up has a slightly different version of this story and it possibly erroneously reported one saying the shirt was Patrick's, that small stains matched Kerrie's blood type and that larger stains matched Sumner's father.

PS: Same blood type as her's, but no medication or alcohol in the blood on the shirt which they would know from autopsy this ain't her blood. So they knew when they went to court that that wasn't my shirt and not her blood but they still presented it as though it was to the judge. So they misled the court.

DR: According to Sumner and in the absence of a hearing transcript, the blood was revealed to not be Kerrie's and in truth must have been because if it was someone would be in jail. Or the case would have at least proceeded to trial.

DR: Have you ever had anybody here really interview you about all that?

PS: Nope.

DR: You're kidding.

PS: No. [laughs]

DR: Nobody's ever interviewed you about that?

PS: No. I think they tried too early on a little bit but it was like pfft. I want them to figure it out. So I will keep my mouth shut. As not to be charged with interfering in an investigation.

DR: Nobody say for police at the time has interviewed Patrick Sumner. I have been asking the police about their focus on Patrick Sumner since the beginning and I've heard from Sean Simmons that he's still nine out of 10 sure that Sumner was who he saw that night. And as far as the RCMP are concerned, Patrick Sumner still hasn't been completely ruled out.

DR: Robert Urbanowski:

ROBERT URBANOWSKI: And I'm reluctant to say anything about Pat Sumner. I think it's clear when you look at the judge at the time at the preliminary inquiry said there simply wasn't enough evidence to proceed to trial. It's not a finding of guilty or not guilty, just not enough evidence. And you have to go back to square one and go 'What are we missing?' You've just got to figure out who's got that name. And I think you know who does.

DR: I might.

DR: My impression here is that Urbanowski is referring to Sumner as that person. John Tost also equivocated on his feelings about Patrick Sumner.

JOHN TOST: There's a difference between of course you know a district hearing and an acquittal. And that Sumner was not acquitted. Court never determined that he hasn't committed the offence... he was not found not guilty, we never got to that phase. They just said that we didn't have enough evidence to proceed to trial at that point. We certainly didn't establish a confession. But you know the legal system it's all we've got in this country.

DR: Dennis Heald:.

DR: You still have your doubts about him. Do you think that Patrick Sumner might know something?

DENNIS HEALD: I think there's still something there.

DR: And Constable Janna Amirault:

JANA AMIRAULT: Like I said before, I can't really narrow down our suspect pool. I would say that it's still quite vast at this point in time. So I can't say at this time whether anybody really has been eliminated.

DR: So Patrick Is in the pool still?

JA: I would say anybody is pretty much in the pool that was involved, or possibly- sorry... brought up as being part of the investigation.

DR: Back at Patrick Sumner's place I try to get into Sumner's alibis. Always one of the most important parts of any investigation.

DR: You had alibis for that night?

PS: Yeah. And we're told to go- well I was with people earlier. Yes. The woman and then a couple of guys. Yeah. And then my parents.

DR: So at the time-.

PS: Parents don't count.

DR: At the time Kerrie Ann would have been murdered, you were with your parents.

PS: According... from what I understand.

DR: From what you remember?

PS: From their questions.

DR: Oh no but you-.

PS: Police asked questions that time slot.

DR: Oh I see OK.

PS: But earlier in the evening I was elsewhere and I could show it.

DR: So this is your opportunity to say unequivocally when I ask the question, 'Did you have anything to do'-.

PS: No absolutely not.

DR: '...with killing Kerrie Ann Brown?'

PS: That's right. Absolutely not.

DR: Would you ever contemplate such a thing?

PS: [laughs] No! What for? It doesn't make sense.

DR: I try to imagine how it must have been for Sumner under the investigative glare of suspicion over 30 years ago. He heads for the kitchenette.

PS: Still drink it with every meal, V8. The reason I was arrested. [snickers] Funny but not funny.

DR: The reason that you say you were arrested is because there was V8-

PS: V8 on the floor where my lunch from that day was.

DR: There was V8 on the floor, right, of your car.

PS: Little tin can, lunch size. Yeah. That's the reason they used to arrest me. It wasn't blood.

DR: According to Sumner, John Tost used the vegetable juice stain as a pretext to make an arrest saying that he believes it to be blood. Despite the empty V8 cans sitting next to it. A thorough search of Sumner's car was conducted. But as far as I can tell from my interviews no actual blood was found. And if he did wash his car all day as Rolly and others have stated this stain must have come afterward. But I'll get to the car washing later.

DR: Go ahead and give me a sense of who you are.

PS: A lost soul. [laughs] I'm the guy that was wrongfully accused in the death of Kerrie Brown in 1986. I'm not sure what else I can tell you. [laughs] That's the fact of the matter.

DR: What was it that brought police to you? In your mind, what what was their big piece of evidence?

PS: Far as I know, false statement testified in court. I can't remember his name. One of the young fellows in the truck. The guy driving. That was because of him. Plain and simple.

DR: Sumner is referring here to Sean Simmons who along with Larry Leepart testified about the vehicles they saw emerging from the stable roads the night Kerry was killed. Simmons says he's 90 percent sure he saw Sumner behind the wheel of a car that looked like the one Sumner owned. I have no reason to disbelieve or disavow Simmons his recollections. I've not been able to verify what Leepart might have seen that night. And while I'm not aware of that either Simmons or Leepart made any kind of false statement. I do know that Larry Leepart was in the passenger seat and according to those present at the preliminary hearing he never got a good look at the driver of the muscle car that passed them on the right.

PS: That's the only reason that I can figure the police bothered me. I don't know what else.

DR: The driver of the truck told him. He said it was a 9 out of 10 in his mind that he saw you in the car driving by. Still says it's 9 out of 10.

PS: Yeah I know. If you believe something in your mind you're going to believe it I guess. [laughs] Well.

DR: Again I wish a transcript of the preliminary hearing existed. It would have been invaluable to compare what was said 30 years ago to what's being remembered now. Still there would be a lot of things I couldn't help with. Patrick says he didn't testify at the hearing.

DR: You didn't testify.

PS: No I didn't need to.

DR: It is normal for defendants not to testify on their own behalf at preliminary hearings and sometimes during trials.

DR: So did you ever have to provide - this is one thing I was unclear about - did you ever have to provide through your lawyer your whereabouts on that night?

PS: No. No. I gave statement for that. Long before I was even under arrest. I told them where I was, who I was with, whatever.

DR: So far Sumner's recollections seem formed in the bitterness of seeing himself as a victim, and maybe he is a victim and innocent. But the bottom line is I need details and facts that can serve as proof. Where was he the night Kerrie was murdered?

DR: What did it say in the statement?

PS: Oh God. Where I was and who I was with [laugh].

DR: Do you remember the basics of what it was?

PS: I was with a girlfriend. Claire. I know she says and we might have the time a little bit off. We might have been at the store a little earlier than we thought. But yeah she was shopping for a couch and went here and there. Frantz Furniture [mumbles... The Bay. Yeah. I dropped her off. Dropped by friend's house and two guys were actually outside in his car. Lindsey and Curtis.

DR: Ok. What time was that?

PS: Yeah, that's... it's got to be around 8:00 - 8:30.

DR: So you drop Claire off around 8:00.

PS: Somewhere there... Because I think we were at the Burntwood at 8:30 for the show.

DR: You're at the Burntwood with Lindsay and Curtis.

PS: Yeah.

DR: Curtis Didluck, I later found out, passed away in July 2016 so he's no longer much help has an alibi. Trevor, Jim and I made a long series of calls to try to find Sumner's other friend Lindsay Lang but so far no luck.

DR: And then how long did you stay there?

PS: I had one peer. I think they had two. Curtis and my dad too. Yeah. Well they were buying so I was [laughs] I had no money. I'd go to school.

DR: Right.

PS: And then I went home.

DR: And then you say that you were never anywhere outside of the town or-

PS: No. I was at the dump.

DR: OK but you didn't go to mystery Lake Road that way?

PS: No.

DR: Didn't go past the cemetery road or stable road at all?

PS: No no no.

DR: So then when you got home, what time was that?

PS: Hmm, I'm sure it was before 10:00. By 10:00 for sure but I'm pretty sure it was before that. But it's kind of hard to remember because I had no reason to.

DR: This is that Thursday night, the 16th.

PS: That's what they were asking me about. Yeah.

DR: When Kerrie disappeared.

PS: I guess.

DR: And was murdered.

DR: Recall that according to police and possibly based on the timing of the vehicle Simmons reports seeing Kerrie was killed sometime between midnight and 1:00 a.m..

DR: So you're saying you were home before 10:00 or around 10:00.

PS: Yeah 10:00 at the latest.

DR: And what happened when you got home?

PS: What do you mean? Normal day.

DR: Like was there some-

PS: Got home, had a shower, made lunch for school the next day, had a bedtime snack. Went to bed at 11:00.

DR: Was there someone here?

PS: Mom was home. Yeah. And then dad showed up. Oh the game was still on an extra innings I guess. Yeah. When Dad came home by 11:00 to catch the news which wasn't on.

DR: Patrick mentioned seeing a baseball game on the night of Thursday, October 16th. He recalled all the channels showing the playoff game which was going into extra innings. He had said something to this effect when I saw him before just prior to me leaving so out of interest I asked one of my producers Amil Delic to look into this for me.

AMIL DELIC: Hey Dave.

DR: Hey Amil. I'm up in Thompson. I just need confirmation from you...

DR: The 1986 World Series took place between the New York Mets and the Boston Red Sox. I asked him to check if there was a game on the night Kerrie was murdered.

AD: On the 16th?

DR: 16th.

AD: No they didn't play. Fox-Mets World Series Game was on October 18th.

DR: The series started on October 18th?

AD: Yeah.

DR: OK so what baseball was on on the 16th?

AD: Would've been game six, Mets-Astros. Went to 16 innings.

DR: Oh yeah, yeah, extra innings.

AD: On October 15th.

DR: Oh, on the 15th!

AD: Yeah man.

DR: And was there in game on television on the 16th?

AD: No. There's no games on the 16th. The 16th was an off day. Travel day.

DR: Travel day. OK.

AD: There's no baseball.

DR: According to my producer there was no baseball game on TV the night Kerrie was killed.

DR: So this was a baseball game.

PS: Yeah.

DR: Now I look at the baseball game was on the Wednesday night in extra innings. But there was no baseball game on the Thursday night.

PS: No there was something on. See, never again. How do you remember something you have no reason to remember?

DR: No reason to remember? I'm not sure what to do with this. Patrick says he's not a baseball fan. He just remembers a game going into extra innings on TV. Perhaps he's just confusing it with Wednesday night's game.

PS: No car washing on Friday.

DR: No. No. No time. And I believe the weather was not conducive.

DR: Rolly told me he'd seen Sumner washing his car for an inordinately long period of time on Friday October 17th. Sumner doesn't deny that he washed his car but insists it was on the Saturday.

PS: Because it was a nice day. Winter was setting in. I just figured that might be my last chance to actually wash it outside.

DR: Saturday.

PS: Yeah. I was off school, yeah. In the driveway. Traffic going back and forth, yeah yeah. 'Cause I was trying to hide something.

DR: And you were washing at the interior and the exterior?

PS: Yeah. I washed the outside and I wiped down windows. And there's two sides to the windows so I wased the inside of the windows [laughs] yeah. I vacuumed the floor. Whatever. So it was a nice day. So yeah. Give my car a cleaning. I took my time. Whatever.

DR: That came up in the prelim about the car washing?

PS: I don't know, maybe. I think it did, yeah. It was relevant.

DR: Because it looked suspicious I think, right?

PS: They were trying to make it look that way. Yeah I guess that's what their effort was towards. You felt suspicious then it's suspicious for anyone who washed their car that day. [laughs] Well what can I say? Whether it was at home in your driveway or whether it was at a car wash. I was trying to hide something. I won't be in high traffic washing my car. Think it's a public facility. Dump. You're here talking to me. And from what I understood from talking to you, sir, the police still are leading you to believe I have something to do with this. To this day, 32 years later. Even though their own investigation they basically refused to acknowledge their own investigation, concering me anyway.

DR: What it is is... when I asked police if they still have a suspicion about Patrick Sumner the answer is always given as a 'he's not been excluded' kind of thing.

PS: Really? So DNA doesn't exclude them when they don't want it to? But DNA does include somebody for sure 100 percent. It doesn't exclude. See that's it. Isn't that a double standard. [laughs] You tell me.

DR: The DNA testing. Did you ever voluntarily give police your DNA?

PS: Well I guess so.

DR: Knowing it was for a DNA test.

PS: You pull hair out and it's got a skin polyp on it. They have DNA. Well they didn't say what it was for but that was actually my idea. After about three hours or so. 'What do you want from me? You must have something to go on. Some evidence. What do you want? You don't want to believe me and I can't make you. What do you want?' So it was my idea. 'Oh so you'll give us this?' 'Yup.' 'Really?' 'Yeah. I've been telling you for hours. I have nothing to do with this. If this will help you eliminate me as a suspect, what do you want?' So they took what they wanted. They asked and I said here you go. Not under arrest. Not charged. Didn't have to give 'em anything. I certainly wouldn't have had to after I was charged. Not in that day whether I would have said no. Right? [laughs].

DR: But you never gave blood to them?

PS: No.

DR: Okay.

DR: I asked them at the time in 1986 DNA testing was in its infancy so any gathering then would have been prescient thinking on the part of police. Sumner says that when he was locked up for the first few weeks without being able to brush his teeth an officer gave him some gum to freshen his breath then asked him to spit it out. So he thinks this could also be a source of DNA collection from him.

PS: I asked him at that time I said, like, what do you want? I said I don't know anything about the science of it but I mean exactly blood, saliva, what? What do you want?

DR: And if they came to you today-

PS: So they asked for what they wanted.

DR: You would give it to today if they asked?

PS: They have it already.

DR: It wasn't until the 1990s when DNA became a centrepiece of criminal investigation that RCMP began collecting samples in earnest from people regarding the Kerrie Brown investigation. Sumner moves on to talking about John Tost, one of the original investigators.

PS: Simply didn't do his job. Plain and simple.

DR: In my interview with John Tost I asked him about the interrogation techniques he used with Patrick Sumner.

DR: What kinds of strategies would you use when you're questioning people say like Patrick?

JOHN TOST: Methodology. They're the same as anybody else. When we're doing investigative interview, your goal, your only goal and the ultimate goal is to obtain any evidence or information that's going to further your investigation and basically that's the only answer I can give you. People are personalities. Personalities may require different approaches.

DR: Different personalities require different approaches.

PS: His own words. You might as well confess because your life's over anyway. That's before he's ever see me before in his life. Never talked to me yet, even. And he had decided at that point in time I was it. There's nothing more I could do.

DR: It's unknown if Tost did say this to Sumner but it's not uncommon for police to use a variety of techniques to try to get a confession.

PS: I did tell him at one point you know just because you think it or you say it doesn't make it. So I just told him do your job. You'll find out you're wrong. That was pretty much toward the end of it. Then I finally said, 'Now I'm going to use a phone.'

DR: Did you have a lawyer present during any of that?

PS: No I had nothing to hide. Told him it repeatedly. Like said, it was my idea. What do you want from me? Whenever you want. I don't know how much more I could cooperated.

DR: Did you meet Dennis Heald?

PS: He was there the whole time making notes. Same. Two peas in a pod... dug their own hole in the ground, I guess. That's [laughs] I mean.... [laughs] I don't know how to put it, right? They dug themselves into it.

DR: I steer the conversation back to Sean Simmons and the allegation made by him and his mother Marilyn that their vehicle was being followed.

DR: So one of the witnesses the driver and the red truck and his mother actually said that Sumner family members were following them around after this all happened.

PS: Really?

DR: Behind their red truck. So.

PS: Yeah I didn't know the truck so I couldn't tell you.

DR: So that wasn't you?

PS: Maybe it was the cops. They follow me around. Tost and Heald. Followed me around and in Heald's family car. When I looked I thought 'A Phoenix' or something, a funny looking car.

DR: And your brothers at the time and your dad you don't know anything about them following that? The red truck?

PS: I have no idea. I wasn't with them. I wasn't with them. So you have your own vehicles. Well I don't know if my older brother even had a vehicle then, tell you the truth.

DR: Neither of your brothers?

PS: I don't think he did.

DR: Patrick had two older brothers, Shane and Kelly, who both died recently in 2013 and 2014. Their father Robert died in 2016.

DR: Would your brothers have driven your car that night?

PS: No. No. They lived in town.

DR: And did they have access to it? Have they ever driven it.

PS: No. No actually. My sister did once. She was up here from of town with her first son.

DR: Did your brothers look like you?

PS: I don't know. Not really. They're both both already, by then half bald.

DR: Right.

PS: And moustaches [laughs]. Yeah. They lost their hair young.

DR: Did they have moustaches?

PS: I don't recall [laughs] to tell you the truth.

DR: Just trying to figure out if someone else had access to your car or something. What about a family member probably, but.

PS: No. No.

DR: Did you have anything to do with Kerrie's disappearance?

PS: Absolutely nothing.

DR: Did you have any idea of Kerrie's murder?

PS: Absolutely nothing.

DR: And do you know anything about the murder? Do you know anything about-.

PS: Other than me being falsely accused? No.

DR: Do you know anything about who was there?

PS: No involvement whatsoever. No. I don't know any of her, friends, any of them. I was not at no party on Trout. That was not a group of people I knew.

DR: You weren't driving in that area?

PS: At all. No not even. No.

DR: Nobody else had access to your car?

PS: I'm pretty sure they didn't. It had an alarm.

DR: Oh actually? Even back then? OK.

PS: I put an alarm in it from RadioShack.

DR: I saw some photos from the crime scene that the RCMP actually shared with me. One of the pictures shows a footprint, so a shoe print.

DR: Recall that through our analysis of the shoe print found at the crime scene we felt it looked similar to the pattern on the sole of a 1983 to 1986 Adidas brand names The Concorde or Centennial. The size is estimated to be at least a U.S. men's 8 or 9 but could be longer because the heel of the print cannot be fully seen.

DR: What's your shoe size? This will help.

PS: Oh God. I'm a 10 to 11 depending on the brand name I guess.

DR: 10 to 11, so pretty big feet for a shorter guy.

PS: 10 and a half. Well, then would have been 10 maybe. I've ained a bit since then [laughs].

DR: What, in length of your feet?

PS: Well your feet do... You get heavier. Your feet will [laughs] tend to over time but I kind of like my shoes loose though. For the most part. Maybe we're a size 9 and a half to 10 I would say maybe then. Maybe 10 and a half tops depending on who made them I guess.

DR: All you're doing is helping with the investigation by talking right now.

PS: That's all I tried to do right from the start. It's called cooperation.

DR: There's a lot of effort was put into trying to take you through the system and it's important to know-.

PS: Well as the judge stated, 'we had no reason even to arrest him.'

DR: I ask again about Patrick's alibis. Curtis, Lindssy and Claire.

DR: None of those people statements were submitted or put into the prelim?

PS: Curtis and Lindsay went down there when I found I was arrested and they were told to go away.

DR: Claire, she wasn't involved.

PS: No, they didn't call her.

DR: So according to Patrick Claire Dube was never called as a witness. So I called her myself.

[Sound: dial tone]

CLAIRE DUBE: Hello?

DR: Oh hi. Can I speak to Claire Dube please?

CD: Speaking.

DR: Hi Claire. My name's David Ridgen and I'm calling...

DR: Claire Henderson Dube, a real estate agent in Thompson.

DR: I spoke to Patrick Sumner.

CD: Yeah.

DR: And he had mentioned that you were with him on October 16th, 1986 and on a October 17th.

CD: I was. Yes.

DR: So can you tell me about that?

CD: OK. Well at that time Pat and I were like best friend. He was going to school for mechanics down the road from where I worked so just about every day we went for lunch and then went for supper.

DR: On the day that Kerrie disappeared Claire asked Patrick Sumner to come with her to Woolco, a local discount department store here. Woolco is a subsidiary of Woolworths and has gone by both names. So this may be why Sumner told me that he and Claire went to Woolworths that day.

CD: And I put a couch and chair on layaway that night actually.

DR: And then what happened after that?

CD: Well we went to the bar for a few drinks and then I had Pat drop me off at home. Certainly I would have stayed out later but I had gone home a bit early that night. I think I had stuff to do for work in the morning.

DR: Just back up a bit, so the Thursday night when you went out after you went to the Woolco to get the furniture.

CD: Yeah.

DR: Where did you go and what time did you arrive and what time did you leave n the Thursday night?

CD: Oh that's a good question. Probably would have arrived there between 9:00 and 10:00. And that would've been the headframe at that point in time. And I don't know. It probably was around midnight I'm guessing? Cleaning at 11:00 or 12:30 probably that I had left.

DR: With Patrick.

CD: Yeah.

DR: OK. And he dropped you off at home you said.

CD: Yeah. It might've been slightly earlier than that, I'm not... I mean that was a long time ago. It was all in my police statement though.

DR: And do you recall any of the other explanations for Pat's whereabouts sort of after he dropped you off? Do you remember what he told you he did after he dropped you off?

CD: Oh yeah. He went back to the bar and had a few more drinks and then he went home.

DR: Okay. And that was the Thursday night?

CD: Yeah.

DR: So there's some major discrepancy here. Claire says that Sumner dropped her off between 11:00 and 12:30 perhaps, earlier. But Sumner says he dropped her off around 8:00 or 8:30 and that he was definitely home by 11:00. Both agree that he didn't go directly home afterwards. Heading back to the bar instead. So depending on the timing, Sumner could still be unaccounted for around the time that Kerrie went missing between 11:30 and midnight. At least by his and Dube's alibis.

DR: You don't remember driving with Patrick out around the area of the stables that night?

CD: Oh definitely not. I guarantee it. We weren't out there.

DR: So according to Claire it was a run up to a weekend like any other. A few drinks on Thursday, another night at the bar on Friday and she implies that Sumner was in school during the time Rolly says he saw him washing his car on the Friday. But then on the Saturday word began to spread through Thompson that a local girl had been murdered.

CD: At that point in time, when I heard what had happened I was just shocked. She was only 2 years younger than...

DR: Claire tells me that the RCMP visited her at her family home parking their squad car in her driveway and conducting the interview there.

CD: Their theory at that point in time which they told me was that I was very similar to Kerrie Brown - hair colouring, size, age. The other theory for Constable Tost was that Pat had an ongoing crush me but he was never able to approach, I guess, I don't know what the right word is for it... And his frustrations over me was why he went after Kerrie Brown, supposedly. It was like they were grasping at straws. Pat couldn't hurt a dog. He couldn't kick a dog for God's sake. He's one of the most gentle people that I know. Anti-conflict and stable. You know? Like you'd have to be whack to be able to do what somebody did to that poor girl. It's just not fair.

DR: Did you ever wonder if Pat, not that he was involved but might have seen something and just had to be quiet because he was afraid? Or did you ever get the feeling Pat might have been there but didn't didn't participate but saw something?

CD: No not at all. No he couldn't have stood by. No. I have no idea what happened that night. All I know is who ever did it should pay severely.

DR: Are you still friends with Pat?

CD: Oh yeah. Yeah. To this day.

DR: How did the whole thing affect your friend Pat.

CD: Oh it screwed his life. He was ostracized from 90 percent of the community. A lot of people probably to this day might think he's guilty. I mean it stunted his life from future... being able to gain meaningful employment and prompts and where you want to look after and stay with his family, when in the meantime there's somebody out there that should pay dearly for a young girl's life.

DR: Claire Dube speaks forcefully of her friend Patrick Sumner's innocence. She was with him for much of the evening Kerrie disappeared but possibly not for the crucial time period when Kerrie would have been actually murdered. A different approach to Sumner may help draw more information out. A first ever meeting with Trevor Brown.

DR: We'll see if Patrick's home.

DR: Trevor. Is obviously a bit nervous about the meeting.

DR: All right.

TREVOR BROWN: Oh yeah. Thanks.

DR: Check. Check. OK. Pat? How's it going man? Yes.

PS: I never knew you.

TB: Only time you would have ever seen he was in that courtroom. That's it.

PS: I cooperated and I did all I could do. Trevor takes over the questioning asking Patrick Sumner things that he's been wondering for over 30 years.

TB: Were you familiar with where they found Gary? Did you know about that stable road, that back access road, that Hydro line? Were you familiar at all in that area?

PS: Well growing up here. Yeah. You know where it is. But I mean familiar, no.

TB: It wasn't a place that you frequent or anything?

PS: No never went there.

TB: Just aware that it was there like a lot of people.

PS: Went through there once. Me and my friend had a truck. And he just went through the hydro line to go back onto the road [laughs]. Just to see if he could get through with his truck....No I wasn't there. Period. Not that evening that's for sure. And not for a long time, I'm sure. I had no reason to go up that way. I lived at the dump [laughs]. I mean the other way. Yeah like on the highway all the time. Yeah to the dump.

TB: Did you freak out when they were arresting you? 'I didn't do this? What's wrong with you?'

PS: Well. No no. It was midnight.

TB: You were 22 at the time?

PS: Yeah...

DR: I watched Trevor as he talks to Sumner. He's pretty good at this. Friendly but trying to draw information from a man who's connected to him through tragedy forever, it seems.

TB: You weren't angry that they were accusing you of this? This is, that's-.

PS: Oh of course, but where are you going to do?

TB: Freak out.

PS: I did but in my own way they just told him to do his job. Yeah.

TB: You didn't know Kerrie either right? In any way. She was younger right?

PS: No no.

TB: She had never been in your car as a lift or hitchhiking or anything?

PS: So for me it doesn't go away. I don't know how to do for you really, because... the police really haven't been any help.

TB: You mean you don't remember that way way back in the day, not long after Kerry's death, you're coming out of Chicken Chef with a friend, a girl I knew from high school but I started yelling at you from a car and I threatened-.

PS: We didn't hear you.

TB: No I said, I said if I ever got my hands I you I was gonna kill you and I wanted to.

PS: Yeah I understand that.

TB: Yeah I wanted to apologize for that, Pat. I did and I'm sorry I did that to you.

PS: I appreciate that. I didn't actually hear you, so.

TB: Well that's good. I'm glad you didn't. You didn't miss much. The cops, yeah I'm still pissed at the cops from back in the day. So yeah.

PS: Yeah. [laughs] There was nothing I could do about it. I did all I could do. I cooperated so they could eliminate me as a suspect but that's not what they did.

TB: Yeah.

PS: Obviously I had no control of that. Nor did you.

TB: No. No.

PS: No.

TB: I've never been past this.

PS: No?

TB: No I've never. I don't have a family. I never got married. I have no kids. I have.... This, I've never moved past this.

PS: I get it.

TB: No.

PS: I get that. It's not over.

TB: No it's not. It's not over. It's far from over.

PS: Chances are I'll be dead. And that's the only thing it will be over. Before I get any clear answers.

TB: You you'll be dead before we get answers? I'm optimistic we're gonna have some before then.

PS: I hope so.

TB: I have to be. I have to be.

DR: Well Trevor what do you think?

TB: Let's rock and roll?

DR: Are you good. You satisfied? You have all the questions you needed to ask this guy? Mr. Sumner?

TB: Yeah.

PS: You can talk to me if you really want to.

TB: If you walk past me and I don't say hi don't be surprised but it's probably-.

PS: I know, I know. I've seen you. I've seen a few times.

TB: Yeah, well because I have tunnel vision, literal tunnel vision take.

PS: Care care Trevor.

TB: Yeah you too Pat. Thanks man.

PS: No problem. No problem.

DR: And with a hug of sorts, this first meeting between Trevor and Patrick is over.

[Sound: Trevor Brown and David Ridgen leave Patrick Sumner's place]

TB: First time when we went to the House this morning I was a bit nervous.

DR: Yeah.

TB: Remember I said it feels cold out here? I had a bit of a shiver going on. I think part of it was nerves.

DR: Yeah. Probably.

TB: Body temperature drops when you get scared? I don't know. But I wasn't scared just a bit nervous. I'm going to talk to. Just hit me. I'm going to talk to... and then I heard you knock and you went inside. So here we go. He doesn't strike me as the type of person that could've carried this out. He just doesn't.

DR: His body language was very relaxed and kind of non-threatening.

DR: I'm left with a mix of thoughts in the wake of all my Sumner encounters. On one hand he seems open and willing to talk and to argue forcefully about his innocence. Taking on the various allegations against him he says he didn't see Kerrie that night and didn't take part in any killing. That his car wouldn't have been in the area where Simmons says he saw it and him. But on the other hand some aspects of Sumner's alibi in the absence of others to back it up such as his father or the friends who were with him after he dropped Claire Dube off seem questionable or at least misremembered. Passage of time and lack of a transcript and police verification make assessments here speculative. An autopsy report might help figure out the timing of Kerrie's death. Dispel some rumours about how she was found and give clues as to number of perpetrators and as Urbanowski says victimology. But Trevor's feeling, without completely exonerating him, is that Sumner probably didn't kill Kerrie.

TB: I won't go out of my way to talk to him. If I see ever he comes up to me or something in public I'll talk to him, sure. I won't seek him out.

DR: Trevor and Jim both feel that it's been a necessary and worthwhile Sumner summit and removing some focus from him helps to bring other evidence and people into view. Did the occupants of the muscle car and the white van that Simmons saw with their lights off leaving the stable road that night have something to do with Kerrie's disappearance? What about the red van Max Coombs saw with Saskatchewan plates? The man with curly hair and the terrifying stare in the white van described by Donna Kovic or her current husband the trucker who says he heard screams the night Kerrie was murdered. How many voices did he hear and what genders? Does Fred Spence whose ex girlfriend claims he said when we killed that white girl in Cree. No more. The two brothers and the man named Eagle who reportedly had been seen in a white van with an air mattress in it the week before Kerrie's murder. Where are they now and will they come forward to tell us what they were doing the night Kerrie disappeared? And the 2:00 a.m. Friday morning phone call Marnie took from the distraught man who said he had just killed someone. Is he listening now? Will he speak again?If you know something or are one of the people I've been trying to contact please get in touch.

LL: We've been listening to the last episode of the latest season of the CBC podcast. Someone Knows Something which is produced written and hosted by David Ridgen. Next week we will bring you the CBC podcast Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo - siblings search for a young Cree girl taken away by child welfare workers in the 1970s. I'm Laura Lynch. Thank you for listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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Aug. 9, 2019 episode transcript

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