Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for August 07, 2019

Hosts: Piya Chattopadhyay and Chris Howden

PIYA CHATTOPADHYAY: Hello, I’m Piya Chattopadhyay, sitting in for Carol Off

Chris Howden: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

PC: Chase closed. The RCMP announce the discovery of two bodies in the wilderness of northern Manitoba — believed to be the fugitive murder suspects they've searched for since late July.

CH: Centre of the tension. The town of Gillam, Manitoba has been the focus of that police search — and one resident can't stress enough how deeply and frighteningly stressful it was.

PC: Controlling interest. The Indian government abruptly strips the state of Jammu and Kashmir of its autonomy — and we'll reach a journalist who's reporting there, despite the communications blackout.

CH: The unwelcome wagon. U.S. President Donald Trump visited Dayton, Ohio, today — and the city's mayor was somewhat less than enthused about his arrival, and their meeting.

PC: Beside himself to be beside someone else. As young boys, Nick Helliwell and his brother were separated during the Sixties Scoop — but now that they've reunited after 50 years, he says he's feeling "a lot more complete".

CH: And...one small step for a man — millions of teeny-tiny steps for a bunch of adorable millimetre-long "moss piglets" — otherwise known as tardigrades — some of which may currently be stretching their eight legs on the lunar surface, after surviving a crash landing.

CH: As It Happens, the Wednesday edition. Radio that guesses the moon's a lot fuller than usual.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: B.C. fugitives: RCMP, B.C. fugitives: Gillam resident, ‘60s Scoop Brothers

B.C. fugitives: RCMP

Guest: Steve Marissink

CH: It appears the search for two fugitives is finally over.

SOUNDCLIP

JANE MACLATCHY: This morning, at approximately 10 a.m., RCMP officers located two male bodies. At this time, we believe these are the bodies of the two suspects wanted in connection with the homicides in British Columbia.

CH: That's RCMP Assistant Commissioner Jane MacLatchy, speaking at a press conference in Winnipeg earlier today. It marks the end of a massive search that lasted more than two weeks, and made international headlines. Bryer Schmegelsky and Kam MacLeod were wanted in three deaths in Northern B.C., and were believed to be on the run in northern Manitoba. Last Friday, the RCMP say they found, quote, "one critical piece of evidence" on a river shoreline. And today, it led them to two bodies in the bush, discovered about seventy kilometres north-east of Gillam Manitoba. Steve Marissink has been following the manhunt closely. He's a former RCMP Major Crimes officer. We reached him in Edmonton.

PC: Mr. Marissink, Canadians and people around the world have been glued to this search for these two fugitives. What do you make of the fact that it is all but assuredly over now?

STEVE MARISSINK: Well, I think it's a relief to everyone. It's not the outcome I think that the investigators and others may have wanted. But it's an outcome.

PC: What do you mean by it's the outcome that investigators probably didn't want?

SM: They would have liked an opportunity to interview and try to gather further information and details from the two suspects — without a doubt. That's always a prime factor in an investigation. You want to be able to have that conversation and try to determine motive. With them being deceased, the investigation will just continue because they will want to try to answer as many questions as they can. So this isn't over for the investigators. This is just day an outcome to one of the chapters in that file.

PC: Well, and one of the questions that is lingering, of course, is how these two fugitives died. The RCMP says their bodies were found in dense bush a kilometre from the shoreline of the Nelson River, and about eight kilometres from the burnt vehicle — burnt-out vehicle — that they'd been travelling in. What does that tell you about how they may have died?

SM: Well, it suggests to me that these two individuals ended up on the shore at some point and determined to go inland. For whatever reason, they found themselves in very heavy bush. And I believe that at that time it's likely that they made some decisions as to whether to continue or whether to end it at that point.

PC: In other words, they may have killed each other — murder-suicide or killed themselves.

SM: Correct, yes. And I say that in part because we're aware that they were stopped by a band constable earlier that day. And they were, in the words the band constable, paranoid. Of course, afterwards, you now know why they were. I would believe that having had an interaction with the officer, that they knew that they would be located or they would be tracked in pretty short order. And that's what caused them to take the road right to the end of the road. And when I looked at it on a map, the road the road dead-ended at the river. And at that point, I'm going to assume they found a watercraft of some kind that would have been left there and chose to go down that road. But they would have also known there would have been an intensive search. And who knows what's going through their minds. But it would not be beyond the realm of possibility that they may have again had misadventure with the boat, ended up on the shore, and decided to walk inland into the heavy bush and make the decision that they did.

PC: It has been more than two weeks since the RCMP announced that these two men weren’t just missing, but they were suspects. Why do you think it took the amount of time it did to find them?

SM: Well, if we work on the theory that they took the boat after they burned the vehicle, either way they ended up in some very dense bush. If as an assumption is that they ended their lives at that point, that would make sense because the heavy search efforts that were undertaken within a day or two — and it would take the RCMP a day or so to get sufficient specialized resources into that area to start conducting the ground search. Including you know helicopters equipped with FLIR, which is a it's like an infrared. It looks for heat signatures. Had they taken their lives shortly after entering the Bush, bodies, of course, cool down when they're bodies. And they would not have registered on a on a heat signature with the FLIR. So that would have hidden them from the aircraft. My best guess would be that they passed away shortly after entering that bush.

PC: There has been criticism on the RCMP for not tracking these two down sooner. Do you think that criticism is warranted?

SM: No. You know it's always easy in hindsight to say could have done this, could have done that. I was actually quite impressed with the fact that they were able to identify them as suspects. Not even as persons of interest, but suspects within a relatively short period after finding that first burned vehicle and the first deceased gentleman. Because that's the most challenging aspect of any homicide is to determine who may have been responsible for it. So the fact that they were able to identify them as suspects with enough surety to put it out to the public, I think they should be commended for that. It's like putting together the pieces of a puzzle without knowing what the final product looked like.

PC: How much pressure were these investigators and search teams under?

SM: I would hope that their senior management was a buffer [slight chuckle] for the pressure. I would imagine that there would have been a fair amount of political pressure exerted on the RCMP. And that would have made its way down into senior management. But I would’ve hoped that the teams were buffered from that to the point that they were allowed to do their job. It's always more challenging in some cases when every step and every decision and every word is being examined for meaning or direction by others. And that detracts from the investigators ability to focus on their job, which is to find the evidence and find the suspects.

PC: What more do you think we might learn now?

SM: They would be able to determine through autopsy, hopefully, a manner of death that will provide again a lot of clues. The scene examination up there will provide a lot of direction in terms of evidence in terms of what happened and how it happened. The things that now that they've got the suspects they will be able to obtain DNA material and that, of course, will further other scene examinations of both the van and the gentleman who had his life taken.

PC: Mr. Marissink, thank you for your perspective on all of this today.

SM: Thank you.

PC: Bye-bye.

SM: Goodnight.

CH: Steve Marissink is a former RCMP Major Crimes investigator. We reached him in Edmonton.

B.C. fugitives: Gillam resident

Guest: Miranda Atkinson

CH: Residents of Gilliam, Manitoba and the surrounding area have had their lives turned upside down during the multi-day search. Now there is hope that normal life can return. Miranda Atkinson lives in Gillam. That's where we reached her.

PC: Miranda, you have lived at the centre of this search for days. How did it feel the moment you got the news that this is finally over?

MIRANDA ATKINSON: Uh, it was an immediate adrenaline rush. I started shaking. It's like a mixed bag of emotions for me. It’s hopefulness that this is all over. Sadness that lives had to be lost. It's sadness for the victims’ families, and how they must be feeling.

PC: What about relief?

MA: Relief, yes. Not quite yet because it's not confirmed. So I don't want to let my guard down. [slight chuckle]

PC: What has it been like for you living in Gillam as this enormous and intense at times enormous at times an intense search has been going on?

MA: It's been pretty tense. I've tried my best to make it like everyday, normal life for the children. And the only issue is we've had our windows and doors locked. So you know no bike rides, no going for walks for slushies, no nature drives. I can't say what it's been like in town as I've been at home; I haven't left the house.

PC: You haven't left the house in days?

MA: No.

PC: And why is that?

MA: Um, wanting to stay home and protect my children.

PC: How old are your kids?

MA: They're 11, eight and one.

PC: So for the two oldest, I mean what's it's been like for them? I mean what did they know?

MA: Well, the first few days, we didn't want to scare them because we didn't know how long this would be going on for. So we just told them there were bears in town and to stay indoors for a few days. And then as it dragged on, we let them know what was going on. My oldest son, he's been coping so well. But my daughter has been beside herself wanting to go out and see her friends and go play. It's been quite difficult for her.

PC: And it's been disruptive to your regular routine as a family and for your community.

MA: Yeah, it's been quite the interruption. Everyday things that you don't think twice about doing to go outside for, we haven't been doing.

PC: And I imagine even with your doors locked in your windows closed, that you were nervous too? Were you nervous that these two suspects might show up at your door when the search was going on?

MA: Oh my goodness, yes. The first the first night — the first few nights especially were very on edge for us — because we live in a neighbourhood close to the highway coming into town. And it for them to come into town, They’d be coming past our neighbourhood first. I had a few paranoid moments where you know I was worried I'd see them walking by. It was very nerve-wracking, but I was able to calm myself down a lot most of the time.

PC: You said you know it's early hours. That you just kind of digesting this and feeling a whole bunch of complex and you know a range of a range of emotion. Normalcy will return to Gillam. When do you think you might leave your house now?

MA: If it if it's confirmed, we’ll take the pause off and go back to life as normal. It would definitely be a relief to not have to look over your shoulders when you go outside.

PC: You know most Canadians probably couldn't point to Gillam on a map before a couple of weeks ago — probably never ever heard of it. [MA chuckles] And your community popped into the minds of many of us. Has this search in your community in and around your community changed it?

MA: No, we're still the same. Even during the manhunt, members of the community organized a barbecue to meet up just so we can have some type of normalcy even with all this madness going on. I think life will go back to normal. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will be wanting to get out. And there's a lot of people who like going out in the wilderness up here; lots of hunters and trappers and nature enthusiasts. And nobody’s been wanting to venture into the bush to go hiking. It would be nice to see that again.

PC: There are still so many questions that are unanswered, and they may never be answered. What do you think this might mean for the families of the victims that these two men are assumed to be dead at this point?

MA: I hope it's some type of closure and relief for them. I know it's not the same as you know them being captured alive and being tried and you know convicted and doing time. It did drag on for so long. But to have this just drop all of a sudden, I hope they find relief. I hope they find peace.

PC: Miranda, I hope you can get back to your regular — quote/unquote — normal routine as soon as possible. Thank you for talking with me today. I appreciate it.

MA: Oh, you're most welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

CH: Miranda Atkinson lives in Gillam, Manitoba. We reached her there earlier today. Later in the show we'll hear more about how people in town are feeling, when we speak to the mayor of Gillam, Dwayne Foreman.

[Music: Sombre]

Dayton mayor

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A chorus of protestors chant “do something”]

CH: That's what it sounded like in Dayton, Ohio today — as U.S. President Donald Trump visited the city. Protesters lined the streets holding signs — one of which read, "your hatred is not welcome in Dayton." As you've heard on the program this week, the President has been criticized for his response to this weekend's two mass shootings. In Dayton, nine people were left dead after a gunman opened fire in the city's downtown. Since that shooting, one of Mr. Trump's most frequent critics has been Dayton's mayor Nan Whaley. She met with the President today. And here's how she responded, when a reporter asked if she heard anything from Mr. Trump that would lead her to believe there would be change.

SOUNDCLIP

NAN WHALEY: I mean this this for us in Dayton, we hope so. I'm not holding my breath. You know too often we just see complete inaction because they're waiting just for time for people to forget that nine people died in Dayton because of a gun that shouldn't be shouldn't be legal frankly. You know we pointed out — I pointed out — to the president that now governor — former senator Mike DeWine — voted for the assault weapons ban. There was a time when this was bipartisan. And so we're looking for those people in Congress to come together because the majority of Americans agree. So this should be an action. Do I think that we're going to see another mass shooting tomorrow or Friday? Probably, because Washington will not move.

REPORTER: When looked in his eyes, did he seem like someone who was ready to take action? Or did he seem like someone who was lust going to let this, as you said, die down?

NW: This is the first time I met the president, so I don't think my ability to look in his eyes is going to give you any insight on what he's thinking.

REPORTER: The Dayton police department wrote a tweet that said the president is not planning to stop by the Oregon District. What are your thoughts on that decision?

NW: I think it was a good decision for him not to stop in the Oregon District.

REPORTER: Why is that?

MW: Well, look, I mean I think how many of you were here for the Sunday vigil? Any of you? Any? Okay, so you saw just some of the anger and agitation in our community about it. I think a lot of people that are owned and owned businesses in that district aren't interested in the president being there. And you know a lot of the time his talk can be very divisive, and that's the last thing we need in Dayton.

CH: That was Dayton, Ohio Mayor Nan Whaley speaking to reporters after U.S. President Donald Trump visited her city.

[Music: Orchestral]

60’s Scoop brothers

Guest: Nick Helliwell

CH: Nick Helliwell was two years old when he last saw his older brother, Anthony Stonechild. They were separated in Saskatchewan during the Sixties Scoop — when Indigenous children were put into the care of predominantly white families. Yesterday, after fifty years apart, Mr. Helliwell and Mr. Stonechild reunited at the Regina airport — along with another of their brothers. We reached Nick Helliwell on the road near McLean, Saskatchewn.

PC: Nick, I want you to take me back to yesterday at the Regina airport, and the moment you first laid eyes on your brother for the first time in 50 years. What was that like?

NICK HELLIWELL: It was really overwhelming. It really was. What really caught me off guard was how I recognized him immediately from his walk or whatever, I don't know. [Laughs] But it was immediate recognition.

PC: And I imagine when he reached you within arm's length, the three Brothers hugged. What did you say to each other?

NH: I was speechless. I was speechless. Anthony was the one who spoke first, and he said I'm home. I cried. I cried. [slight laugh]

PC: I bet. And then?

NH: Well, of course, handed him over to Henry so that Henry could say hi. And it was just oh, such elation rising up in my heart. And a sense of wholeness, a sense of just so many hopes and dreams and everything over the years just coming true.

PC: So when did you and Henry first come together.

NH: Back when I was 19 was when I first met the first of my biological brothers. And so it was shortly after that.

PC: So Nick, you and Henry reconnected, but you didn't see Anthony for 50 years. How did you manage to reconnect with him?

NH: Facebook is a wonderful thing. I have been talking regular lead to our other brother, Berle. Berle was the one who actually connected with Anthony first. And it was their messaging back and forth that they figured out that they were brothers — that Anthony was the missing brother. And so when I was talking with Berle through Facebook Messenger, he mentioned that that he had found Joey.

PC: Joey is how you knew him when you guys were very, very young kids.

NH: Yes, yes. Both Anthony and my names were changed somewhere along the way.

PC: You were two years old the last time you saw Anthony or Joey. He was four years old at the time. What did you know about how you and your brother became separated?

NH: Well, the story that when I met my mom was that she had left the house for a while to go shopping or whatever and left us kids at home. And in those days, whenever anyone was called to a house of a First Nations person, social services would quite often be involved in that, whether it was the police or the ambulance or the school or the fire department. And so there was a small fire on the stove. The fire department attended the house, and social services came along. And mum said that when she came back, all us kids were gone, and there was a notice on our door from social services saying we have your kids. This is what you need to do to get them back. That's the story that I was given by my mom.

PC: Many years later.

NH: Yeah.

PC: And that's the tragedy of the Sixties Scoop, right? One of the many tragedies of the Sixties Scoop. Children were taken from their homes and placed with other families — mostly white families — and many children did not grow up in one family. What was your childhood like? Did you get moved around a lot?

NH: Yeah, very much so. I when I was 19 and I went back to my adoptive parents and asked them for my file and everything, I found out that I had been most 15 times from the time I was first apprehended until I was at the end of grade one when I was adopted.

PC: Wow! What is your sense of family? Yesterday, the three biological brothers came together, and I know your plans to meet the fourth. What does family mean to you? What has it meant to you?

NH: Well, I've worked really, really hard through a lot of my adult life reconstructing in a sense an artificial sense of family. For me, being a father, being part of a family is in a sense an artificial construct because I've never felt connected to anyone in that way where you're raised up in a in a family. And you know who your dad is, you know who your mom is, you know your heritage, you know where you belong. And so most of my adult life — and I've made a career of it — is to just try and heal those wounds, get that sense of family balance.

PC: And has your sense of family changed since yesterday?

NH: Yeah, I feel a lot more complete. This is a very, very healing time for me. Anthony being the last brother to to come back home and to reconnect, it's kind of the final puzzle piece for me. There's always been a sense that something's missing. Over the past number of years I’d been afraid you know that that was lost forever. I was so afraid that that Joey had had passed away. We've lost five of our brothers so far. So the tragedy is that you know we have lost so much. But in the midst of that, there's this feeling of completeness, of healing in this.

PC: Nick, I understand you have your two brothers in the car with you right now. Where are you all headed today?

NH: Again, this is part of our healing journey. We want to go visit our mom's grave. And then we want to go visit the brothers graves — the ones that have passed away. And so our stepdad, the one that was with our mom last, we're going to pick him up. And he's an elder, and so he's we want him to kind of lead the way in this journey.

PC: I'm really glad that you found your family. And I know all of your lives have been filled with the hardship that came from the Sixties Scoop. And I wish you all healing and togetherness. Thank you very much for speaking with me.

NH: Well, thank you very much. Thank you.

PC: Bye-bye.

NH: Bye now.

CH: That was Nick Helliwell, who reunited with his brother yesterday after 50 years apart. We reached him on the road near McLean, Saskatchewan.

[Music: Jazzy guitar]

Part two: B. C. fugitives: Gillam mayor, Kashmir: Latest, moon ‘water bears’

B.C. fugitives: GIllam mayor

Guest: Dwayne Foreman

CH: As you've heard on the news and earlier on the show — the cross-Canada search for two murder suspects is finally over. The RCMP announced today that two bodies, believed to be those of Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky, were found about 70 kilometres northeast of Gillam, Manitoba. Dwayne Foreman is the mayor of Gillam. We reached him there earlier today.

PC: Mayor Foreman, when did you find out the news that the suspects are apparently dead?

DWAYNE FOREMAN: I was informed this morning.

PC: And when you got that news, what were you thinking?

DF: Oh, just an absolute sense of relief for the communities of Gillam and Fox Lake. It's been a whirlwind of emotions up and down. And just never knowing what's going to happen the next day, waiting for the next update. Doing my best to accommodate the RCMP in any way I can. And work with the town and Manitoba Hydro and Fox Lake to make sure that the RCMP has everything that they need to bring closure to this. And, thankfully, it's come to that.

PC: You said that you feel relief. What else are you feeling today?

DF: Well, now that its, more or less, over for the manhunt, the community can start to heal. Now focus has to be put onto condolences put towards the family of the victims. Those people are not going to have answers now, and that's very sad.

PC: You mentioned your community needs healing. What kind of healing is needed?

DF: Well, there's going to be some individuals within the community that is emotionally scarred. And we have to be there for them, and do our best to give them any resources that they need to get back to a sense of normalcy. So we'll be there for anyone in the community when they come to it. And we're going to take our steps almost immediately to just try to get our sense of community back between Fox Lake and Gillam. Just to be us again. Be the north.

PC: We've heard of and from people in town locking their doors for the first time. Not having left their house for many, many days. What's this been like?

DF: It has been quite different for the community, absolutely. When you normally see children around all over the streets going up and down with their bikes, and for it to go overnight to almost silence on the streets, it was quite daunting. But over the past few days, more and more children have been coming out as parents are feeling a little bit more relaxed. Not all, but now that this news release has come out, I'm hoping that everyone can start on the process of getting back to being able to be old Gillam, old Fox Lake.

PC: Can you describe the area where these bodies were found for us?

DF: Well, I haven't been to site myself. But if I'm going by the general logistics of what they're stating as far as the location of the vehicle and eight kilometers within that, anything in that area is going to be swampy, rough terrain, a lot of moss, heavy bush, fallen trees. It would not be the best trekking terrain to navigate through. It would be very difficult.

PC: And do you then think it's possible that they may have been dead for days?

DF: That is something that would have to be brought to you by the RCMP. That's something that you'd just be getting speculation from me. And I don't want to be putting speculation out there. The possibilities there, but it's all speculation. It's totally unknown. Totally unknown. We’ll know when the autopsy is complete. And they'll give us a timeline of death at that time I'm sure.

PC: How has this transformed your community, Mayor Foreman

DF: You know what? That's going to be revealed over time. This community's always been a very strong community, close-knit community, and I'm hoping that ultimately we just become stronger as a community because of this. There's going to be individuals that are going to have emotional scars for a little bit over this. It's understandable. And it’s best to get the resources to those individuals to make sure that they can get through this.

PC: Will you still be locking your doors? I know a lot of people in the community have changed their kind of habits people have in small communities where the doors are unlocked, the windows are up, and a lot of people have changed those habits over the last number of days. Will you be locking your doors now?

DF: My doors have been locked since I met my wife. She feels that locking doors is very important. But as far as other people in the community, I'm hoping that we can get back to the old Gillam — the way we used to be. Just a good, open-minded community, and little-to-no crime.

PC: Mayor, thank you very much.

DF: No problem. Thank you.

PC: Take care. Bye-bye.

CH: Dwayne Foreman is the mayor of Gillam, Manitoba. We reached him there earlier today. For the latest on this story, go to: www.cbc.ca/news.

[Music: Piano]

Kashmir: Latest

Guest: Ahmer Khan

CH: It's now the fourth day of a lockdown in the northern Indian territory of Kashmir. The Indian government has cut all internet, mobile, and landline phone connections to the outside world, as part of a stunning move to take greater control of what had been a semi-autonomous state. Earlier this week, the central government revoked a key article of the Indian constitution, upending the basis of Kashmir's complex relationship with the rest of India -- which had in place for the past 70 years. Ahmer Khan is a freelance reporter from the state of Jammu and Kashmir. He's had to leave his home in Srinagar to tell people on the outside what's going on under the lockdown. We reached him in Delhi, India.

PC: Ahemr, what is life like for people in Srinagar and the rest to Kashmir today under this lockdown now into its fourth day?

AHMER KHAN: Entire Kashmir is under lockdown. Seven million people are under lockdown. Strict restrictions have been placed by the government of India. Thousands and thousands of troops are on the streets asking people do not get out or you'll be shot dead. There are shoot on sight orders and in the valley. And this has been going on since Sunday night. And it looks like that it’ll continue for next ten days. There are many reports of protests. And, unfortunately, two people have been killed. But media has not been allowed to cover it because government has put very strict restrictions on the press people. So yeah, it's really terrible right now.

PC: Okay, see you left Srinagar earlier today. You're now in Delhi, so you can tell people — people like myself and Canadians — what exactly is happening in Kashmir. So tell me what kinds of things you were seeing? Are people having any ability to go, to work to go get groceries, to go get water for their families?

AK: No, no, no. There's no question of getting groceries and water. As soon as you get out of your house, you'll be shot or you'll be beaten or you'll be abused. So there's no way you can come out of your house and roam around. You can't call. You can't use the Internet. You can't have any sort of communication with anybody. You can’t meet your family friends.

PC: And so in your family for instance, how much food and supplies and water do they have to last? Like how long can they go?

AK: The government has said that we have essentially stock for next two months. But how would you distribute the food? I mean in 2016, we faced a similar problem when we had curfew for six months straight. And people couldn't go out to have all their essential items there. There are medical emergencies. There are babies. There are many other problems. So it's really hard to say how people manage. I mean I could only see my family today for ten minutes — only ten minutes. It was really hard. But that's how it is.

PC: And given that there are such strict rules right now, how did you even get out of Kashmir earlier today?

AK: Piya, I must tell you I really begged them. I have literally begged each and every security personnel over there, Indian forces there. And I did show them my travel tickets. And then even though I show my press card, I was abused of saying that I am from press and it doesn't really bother them. It was really hard, trust me.

PC: So given what you've just said, what is the mood like in Srinagar and in Kashmir?

AK: Many, many do not know that Article 370 has been removed by the government of India. The amount of anger out there is like a volcano. And it can erupt any time.

PC: You just mentioned Article 370, which is part of the Indian Constitution. It's a provision in the Constitution. Tell me what it is and why it's so important?

AK: Article 370 is a special status given to the to the Keshmir Valley basically. When India and Pakistan got their freedom from British rule, Kashmir was a princely state. It was not a part of either of the countries. The prime minister of India signed a document with the prime minister of Kashmir and said that we’ll only accede with India on the condition of having a special status, and India could manage only three parts. But they have broken the trust of 70 years.

PC: Now, for its part, the Indian government says it's well within its rights to do this — to revoke the state of Jammu and Kashmir’s special status. Some constitutional experts say the central government cannot do this without the say of the state government. Where are all those leaders in all of this?

AK: Mainstream politicians in Kashmir are under arrest right now. Almost 100 people have been arrested over the couple of days. None of them can speak to media because they're barred from speaking to media. Before they go free, they all met. There was an all-party meeting where they said that whatever Delhi does, it’ll be aggression towards the people of Kashmir.

PC: Why do you think Prime Minister Mahendra Modi's government is doing this now? What do you think it's trying to achieve?

AK: The point is either way, he wants to show that he's a powerful leader to his majority of people because, of course, he won the majority in recent elections. And also, it was in the manifesto when he released the manifesto before the elections, he said that I vulnerable Article 370. And they were always after it. A majority of people in India they love Kashmir. They really want to buy a lot of property in Kashmir. I mean there are many connotations to it because maximum people in Kashmir one freedom for India, and lately from Pakistan as well.

PC: How will you get back to Kashmir? Will you be allowed back in?

AK: I mean flights are going on there. But from airport, it’s a huge issue. I can also say that there are many, many students across India and other parts of the world who have been texting and messaging me asking that how do we go home? How do we get down to the airport because airport is really far from the rest of the city. There are no taxis. There no Internet. There's no money in the A.T.M. machines. And how would you fill the cash in the A.T.Ms because there's no moment at all?

PC: Ahmer, as you said, Kashmir has been put under curfew before, but never before has this special status been revoked. This is this is new territory. As you also said, there's a communications lockdown. There isn't a lot of information getting out from Kashmir. So what do you want the rest of us to know about the situation in Kashmir right now?

AK: Look, Kashmir is one of the longest disputed regions in the world, and the most militarized region in the world as well. It doesn't really matter to a lot of people around the world. But it's a small, tiny region in South Asia which could be a flashpoint for nuclear arms to neighbours to fight over. It's a small, small place. But they have always been threatening each other that way. We believe that if people around the world have a sense that India should be asked to sit on their table with Pakistan and the rest of the countries in South Asia and resolve this issue.

PC: Ahmer Khan, thank you for explaining to us what is happening in your home state of Jammu and Kashmir. And please stay safe. Thank you very much.

AK: Thank you. Thank you.

CH: That was Ahmer Khan, a freelance journalist from the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. We reached him in Delhi. And we've posted more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Moon ‘water bears’

Guest: Nova Spivack

CH: Surviving a journey to the moon is tough — tougher to survive crash landing on the moon, which is famously hard. But thousands of tiny "water bears" or "moss piglets" may have done just that. Tardigrades — that's their actual, scientific name — are very strange animals. You kind of need to be, to survive in such inhospitable conditions. The tardigrades were part of a mission to take a library of humankind to the moon -- basically, a backup of a lot of our information in case we all die here on Earth. The spacecraft crash-landed in April. One of the mission's leaders says he believes there were survivors: the little "moss piglets", which are still alive and lonely on the Lunar surface. Nova Spivack is the co-founder and CEO of the Arch Mission Foundation. We reached him in Beijing.

PC: Mr. Spivack, first of all, describe these so-called water bears — these tardigrades — for me.

NOVA SPIVACK: Sure, tardigrade is one of the — if not the most — durable forms of life that we know of. Their ancient, multicellular, nearly indestructible, microscopic organisms that have survived all five mass extinctions on Earth. And they turn out to be able to survive in the vacuum of space. And now there are some of them on the moon.

PC: Why do they colloquially called water bears? Do they look like bears under a microscope?

NS: Well, you know there are different meanings. They were actually named after their slow movement. But they do have a cute, little bear appearance. They are found in wet environments in some cases. So I mean you know you love him or hate him. It's the first life that we've put onto another planetary object.

PC: And why do you think there are not only some of them on the moon, but that they survived the crash landing and in many, many months on the moon?

NS: Well, tardigrades have this unique ability to go into a type of suspended animation. nd when they're in this state, essentially THEY’RE dormant and quite indestructible effectively. Later, if they're recovered and brought back into an atmosphere, they can be rehydrated and brought back to life. We analyzed the crash and concluded that the energy of the impact was not sufficient to vaporize our payload. Best case, our payload is completely intact, resting somewhere on the on a slope on the side of a mountain on the moon. Worst case, maybe it was shattered into some number of pieces. but the energy — the heat and so forth — would not be sufficient to melt our payload. It wouldn't kill or destroy these tardigrades that were in suspended animation inside our payload. They're there, and they're technically alive.

PC: And where on this planet, where on earth can we find these things?

NS: Yeah, pretty much everywhere. You can find them on moss, in lichen. You can find them in the Antarctic. You can find them in jungles. You can find them in all kinds of different terrain. They're pretty much all over the planet.

PC: And how did they develop these incredible, incredible survival abilities?

NS: You know it's a good question. There is actually one hypothesis called Panspermia, which posits that it's possible that tardigrades did not originate on Earth. It's possible that they may have arrived on comets, which are basically blocks of ice or meteors and meteorites that fell to earth, but came from other planets. Another possibility is that they did evolve here, you know? But they're extremely ancient, and somehow they've evolved this ability to pretty much survive anything nature can throw at them.

PC: And so the first possibility is essentially that they're aliens — aliens that have been living on earth for a very long time.

NS: Well, and perhaps in that case, we evolved from them. It's possible.

PC: And you intentionally sent these tardigrades — these water bears — to the moon. What was the goal of the mission?

NS: Well the Arch Mission Foundation is backing up planet Earth. And that means all of our knowledge, culture, history, science, and so forth. We sent 30 million pages etched into nickel films on the lunar library, which crashed on the moon. And in addition to sending knowledge and all of this information, we sent about 100 million cells containing DNA. And you know about 10000 or so tardigrades.

PC: Now you have some critics of this project. Not everyone thinks it's a great idea to put these creatures on the moon. The BBC spoke to Open University professor Monica Grady. She said basically — and I'm quoting her here — what it means is this so-called pristine environment of the moon has been broken. Now she's talking about the outer space treaty, which says that space crafts should not contaminate their environment when they leave Earth. What do you say to that?

NS: Well, first of all, the moon is classified as a type one destination. And actually, in the context of the treaty, is not considered to be an area that is sensitive in that way because it's not believed to contain any life.

PC: And so your working theory at this point is that they're up there on the moon, suspended animation. And if they could somehow get off the moon, they could possibly — probably — be rehydrated and — quote/unquote — come back to life. So is there a plan for staging a rescue operation? Bringing them back and observing the effect on their being after being on the moon?

NS: Well, actually the European Space Agency's already done those experiments. They've sent tardigrades to space and recovered them. They've already proved that they can survive. The main threat to tardigrades would be ultraviolet radiation. Our tardigrades are protected from that because they're either inside of our payload and carefully protected. Or they're in the lunar soil at this point and protected from UV. So actually, I think our tardigrades are just fine. The poor little guys though you know stuck on the moon for all eternity. That's another question. A couple of scenarios: One possibility is that you know life on Earth gets wiped out in the sixth great extinction that's happening now or the next one or the one after that. You know every 50 to 100 million years this happens. And at some point in the future, some other form of life evolves, goes to the moon, finds the lunar library, and recovers tardigrades. You know I will mention that tardigrades don't really need to be backed up because they'll probably survive anything on earth even if humans don't. It's more interesting to send them sort of symbolically, I think. tardigrades are all over the planet, and there's pretty much nothing that will eradicate them. Maybe we're more concerned about the poor tardigrades stuck on the moon. Recovering them would be a painstaking exercise with tweezers and a microscope, sifting through enough perhaps hundreds of kilometers of lunar dust. But if somebody wants to do it, we support them in that effort.

PC: [laughs] Thank you for your time. I appreciate you explaining this all to me.

NS: Thank you very much.

PC: Bye-bye.

NS: Bye-bye.

CH: Nova Spivack is the co-founder and CEO of the Arch Mission Foundation. We reached him in Beijing. And to see photos of these strange little "water bears", you can go to our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

TTC Avenue

Here's how the Cambridge online dictionary says British people pronounce it.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Avenue.

CH: Now that same dictionary says Americans pronounce it like this.

SOUNDCLIP

SPEAKER: Avenue.

CH: That’s a pretty subtle difference, but noticeable: "AV-en-you" or "AV-en-oo". And in English Canada, we hew to the British style. So a handful of patriotic passengers on Toronto buses were simply furious to hear how the transit system's automated stop-announcing system said that word: American-style. Like, "Next stop: Ossington Avenoo". And they would not stand, or sit, or stand holding one of those useless hanging straps, for it. So after a few complaints, the Toronto Transit Commission, or TTC, decided to try to reprogram it. And in June, the TTC unveiled its brand-new pronunciation. I mean, brand-new — no one had ever pronounced it this way before. Now, unfortunately, only one baffled Torontonian had the wherewithal to record the result. It's muffled, and hard to make out, but here it is.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A robotic voice says a stop]

CH: See, it's supposed to be saying "Marlee Avenue". But again, it says this:

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A robotic voice says a stop]

CH: And that's how it said "Avenue" on routes all over the city. Like "ah-VEEN-ee-oo". So the TTC tried to change "AV-en-oo" to "AV-en-you" to make a few grumpy people feel better — and wound up confusing thousands of people with "ah-VEEN-ee-oo". Well, as of this week, Toronto buses are back to the American pronunciation — which, at least, is a recognizable word. And if you're the person who programmed a system that announces street names, but can't say one simple kind of street correctly, maybe it's time for you to explore other avenues.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

August 07, 2019 episode transcript

More Stories Like This