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The AIH Transcript for July 22, 2019

Hosts: Megan Williams and Chris Howden

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hello, I'm Megan Williams, sitting in for Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

MW: Networking opportunity. Well the company's reputation has taken a hit, amid accusations of ties to Chinese spies — Huawei’s Canadian VP says its promise to bring high speed Internet to the Canadian north has nothing to do with PR.

CH: All in a DA’s work. As Manhattan's longest serving district attorney, the late Robert M. Morgenthau Prosecuted mobsters, bankers, and killers — and a colleague remembers his devotion to yanking the worms out of the Big Apple.

MW: The Periscope of the investigation. After 50 years, a search locates the wreckage of a French submarine that sank in 1968. And for the son of the sub's commander, that means a measure of peace at last.

CH: Sibling revelry. As a member of the Neville Brothers, and the Meters, the late Art Neville helped define the music of New Orleans. And now, his city is celebrating his immortal works of art.

MW: brute forest. After a New York Times article describes a national tradition in the Netherlands in which children are dropped off in the woods to fend for themselves. Dutch readers suggest the paper itself should take a hike.

CH: And… watching the fur fly. A Seattle photographer explains how he got a stunning photo of a bald eagle flying off with a rabbit — and a fox that's surprised to find itself and its meal suddenly airborne.

CH: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that's not sure which predator got which half of the rabbit first. But I guess that's splitting hairs.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Huawei north, French submarine find, bird photographer

Huawei north

Guest: Alykhan Velshi

CH: Alykhan Velshi doesn't seem to mind a challenge. The former Stephen Harper staffer is now the public face of Huawei Canada — the company's Vice President of Corporate Affairs. Huawei is currently fighting to free Meng Wanzhou. She's the CFO of Huawei's parent company, who's been detained in Vancouver on a US extradition request. Huawei is also defending against warnings that, if it's allowed to build the next generation of internet infrastructure, it could open the door to Chinese spies. But today, Mr. Velshi was busy announcing a partnership that will put Huawei front and centre in the effort to bring high speed internet to the Canadian north. We reached Alykhan Velshi in Ottawa.

MW: Mr. Velshi, how much of today's northern partnership announcement is about improving Huawei’s image with Canadians?

ALYLHAN VELSHI: Look, I think that's a fair question. But I think it's the wrong way to look about it. Because the reality is Huawei has been operating in Canada since 2008, and providing network equipment in the north for about that period of time as well. So this is an extension of what we're already doing, right? Now, it is also the case that Huawei has been in the news lately, and so you know our activities tend to get more publicity than they otherwise would. But the idea of connecting more communities in the north is something that is very much standard for Huawei.

MW: But there are concerns across Canada — and from experts as well. Richard Fadden, who is the former CSIS director, wrote earlier this month that, quote, Huawei is a company beholden to higher laws that could and most likely would make it a tool for state-sponsored espionage. Speaking about China, of course, what would you say to Mr. Fadden?

AV: Well, first of all, I've known Dick Fadden for years when we worked together in the Canadian government, and I just don't accept the premise of his question. Huawei Canada has been operating in Canada since 2008, and the only law we have to follow are the laws of Canada. Everyone at Huawei Canada from our president Eric, to our chief cybersecurity officer Oliveira, to our CTO Rob, to me, to the junior engineer beavering away in a cubicle, has to follow the laws of Canada. And with ten years of experience operating in Canada, not a single one of our customers in terms of you know the carriers — the Bell, Tellus, and the Rogers, nor Canada security agencies, nor the government of Canada has ever actually submitted a complaint that Huawei Canada hasn't followed the rules in Canada. And so I think that you know Mr. Fadden, who I have a great deal of personal regard for, is speaking based on a faulty premise, which is that somehow the laws of Canada don't apply to Huawei Canada, which is just false.

MW: The Washington Post is reporting today that Huawei worked secretly to build North Korea's wireless network. Is that the kind of company the Canadian government should be working with?

AV: Look, I think that's a fair question, and I'm familiar with the story. I only have line of sight into Huawei Canada. Now, my understanding is globally, a Huawei spokesman denied the report in The Washington Post and said it was untrue. But, at the end of the day, you know we are a global multinational with an office in Canada, and it's the Canadian office that is supplying Canadian telcos. And it is the laws of Canada that apply to the activities of every single Huawei employee in Canada — myself included.

MW: And meanwhile, as many Canadians know, Huawei's CFO is under house arrest in Vancouver, and facing extradition to the US. Is the US government also operating under faulty premises?

AV: You know, obviously this is a time of real tension diplomatically whether it's between Canada and China or China and the United States. Now, I can't pretend to know where diplomatic talks are between these countries. What efforts are sort of being made behind the scenes, I just don't know, right? I work for a company, Huawei Canada. I don't work for Global Affairs. That having been said, I think it's important that the government of Canada make decisions in the best interests of Canadians, and recognize the fact that Huawei Canada has been here since 2008, has 1,100 employees, and has supplied all of the major telecom operators in Canada. So these are the sorts of decisions that should be made in Canada not in the White House.

MW: And yet, there is concern that the company is beholden to the Chinese government. How hard is it for you to make the argument the Chinese government would not interfere with a company's 5G equipment when Canadians have seen China playing hardball with Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, and blocking imports from our grain and meat producers.

AV: So in terms of the influence of the government of China, at the end of the day, every Huawei employee in Canada has to follow the laws of Canada. And the laws of Canada prohibit the sort of activities like espionage, like pilfering the data of Canadians, and all those things that people are worried about. It's just illegal for anyone at Huawei Canada to engage in those activities. And I think on a global level, our founder and CEO in China, Mr. Ren, has said that if he were to receive an inappropriate request from the government of China, he would ignore it. And that is because the majority of Huawei’s revenues actually don't come from within China. They come from countries outside of China — much like Canada. And in terms of the activities of the government of China, look, it's true that this is a time of real tension between candidate China on a number of fronts. As with any complex geopolitical issue, ic can only be self-government to government. And I just can't pretend to know where diplomatic talks are between Canada and China, what efforts have been made behind the scenes, or with the Americans, right? We’re a telecom company that's operating a business here.

MW: To pick up on your first point, I mean how realistic is it that the head of a major Chinese corporation would not be concerned about whether or not the Chinese government puts up with a decision not to pass on information to the Chinese government? I mean we've seen very high level officials in China virtually disappear.

AV: Well, he has said that he would decline to follow an inappropriate request. But more importantly, for a Huawei Canada official to engage in that sort of activity would violate the laws that they are subject to, which are the laws of Canada, right? And the laws apply to all of us.

MW: Yes, I understand that, and you've made that point. My question to you is how realistic is it that we believe him when he says he would refuse that request?

AV: I mean I look at it from a few different dimensions. So, first of all, Huawei as I said operates in 170 countries. The bulk of its revenue comes from outside of China, right? So he has said that he would decline to follow it. And the reason why he would decline to follow it is because the day that Huawei engages in that sort of activity, it loses its relationship of trust with 169 of the 170 countries in which it operates. And it stops being a global company. And it just becomes a Chinese company again. So just from a dollars and cents perspective, it doesn't make sense to follow such a request.

MW: That's assuming it's discovered.

AV: Well, it's difficult to kind of speculate on you know I think you're asking to speculate on the circumstances under which an inappropriate request that’s never been made would be made. Suffice it to say that he has said he wouldn't follow it. And everyone in Canada if they were to follow it would be breaking the rules. And that's not something that anyone from our president, to our CSO, to myself would ever do.

MW: Okay. Thanks so much for speaking with me today.

AV: Appreciate you taking the time.

CH: Alykhan Velshi is Huawei Canada's Vice President of Corporate Affairs. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music: Percussive jazz]

French submarine find

Guest: Herve Fauve

CH: In January of 1968, the French navy submarine — La Minerve — disappeared. There were 52 crew members on board. Over the years, there were efforts to find the sub — but none were successful, until now. Today, France's Defence Minister announced that La Minerve has been found. The wreckage was in the Mediterranean, off the coast of Toulon in southern France. Herve Fauve's father, Andre Fauve, was the submarine's commander. We reached Herve Fauve in Toulon.

MW: Mr. Fauve, why do you think it took more than half a century to find the submarine?

HERVE FAUVE: There were a lot of research just after the sinking of the submarine — during the two or three years. And after they stopped for reason nobody knows it today. After, we had to wait. And many families fighted to have some information to know the truth. But it was always impossible to get any information on the reason for that sinking. We never stopped. And two years ago, I decided to curve into the fight. And I tried to do a mobilization of the both the family, the media, and from the Navy itself.

MW: And what was it that prompted you to renew your quest for answers two years ago?

HF: It was the 50th birthday of the sinking of the submarine. And I knew that if I wanted to have any chance to be heard by media, I had to speak at a moment when they pay attention to the submarine.

MW: Now, it's an American company — Ocean Infinity — that found the submarine. What was some of the equipment that they used to locate the Minerve?

HF: Oh, they used marine drones. And they had probably the best equipment in the world for making this kind of research. Ocean Infinity one year ago succeeded in researching Argentine submarine the San Juan. And so I think that the French Navy thought that it was better to ask to probably the best company in the world for this kind of research to conduct the research.

MW: Right, and that that, of course, was another submarine that had sunk years ago. Now, how were they sure that they had located the Minerve? How were they sure that this was the correct submarine that they were looking for?

HF: We found the path of the kiosk of the submarine when we see very clearly the first letter of its name. We see Min, which I mean it's the beginning of Minerve. And so this is one first clue. And the second, it's the shape of the torpedoes part of the submarine is typical from this kind of submarine. There was only one submarine with this kind of torpedoes equipment and this kind of name beginning with these three letters.

MW: What was it like for you to see that photograph with those letters confirming that they'd found your dad's sub?

HF: It's a strong emotion because for me, it's the grave of my father. So it's the first time in my life I can see the grave of my father. So it's difficult to describe the feeling to see some something you expected to see for 50 years.

MW: Now, you mentioned the family members of the men on that submarine weren't told very much about what happened to the submarine. But there were theories that were circulating. Can you tell me some of the theories about what might have happened to the Minerve?

HF: Some people thought that they were hit by a Russian torpedo. Some other thought that they were caught by a Russian submarine or a Russian boat like a bit in a James Bond movie. Some other thought that they were in a secret mission very far from Toulon, and the submarine sank maybe in the Atlantic or maybe in the Pacific area. So there were a lot of different theory according to which we did not know the truth — just because as a French Navy couldn't tell us the truth. And just to give an example, there were people for years and years expecting that they would come back where they would have been jailed.

MW: Do you remember hoping that your dad might come back as well?

HF: In my case, I always believed that he was in the Mediterranean Sea. And that the Minerve sank not far from Toulon. But I was probably one of the only one to be sure of this.

MW: You were just a young child, but what do you remember the day your family learned about the submarine disappearing?

HF: Yeah, in fact, I remember very well. The bell rang in the morning, my mother opened the door, and there were two officers with their uniform. They asked her to go in the living room. And in the living room, I saw my mother sitting down in the canopy and beginning to cry. And I've never seen my mother crying before. And she told me immediately your father is dead.

MW: I'm so sorry. In the years that followed, how often did your family talk about what happened?

HF: In fact, it was like a secret. In fact, we spoke a lot about my father, but never about the accident itself. We had no information. And probably we were more focused on who was my father? In fact, in my case, I wanted to knew him better than I have the time to know him. And it was probably the case in many families. In fact, we did not dare to speak about the accident because we were all thinking about one person — about the member of our family who disappeared. And we were not really interested in the submarine itself. And it's just after a year that we began to speak about the accident itself. And many families fight to know the truth.

MW: Mr. Fauve, thank you very much for speaking with me today.

HF: Thank you. Thank you.

MW: Au revoir.

HF: Au revoir. Goodbye.

MW: Goodbye.

CH: Herve Fauve's father — Andre Fauve — was the commander of the French navy submarine, La Minerve. Today, officials announced today that the wreckage of the sub had been found after 50 years. We reached Herve Fauve in Toulon, France.

[Music: Horns!]

Bird photographer

Guest: Kevin Ebi

CH: The Audubon Photography Awards honour special achievement in a very particular field: photos of birds. And the 2019 list of winners did not disappoint. A red-winged blackbird, blowing what looks like smoke rings. A pair of Great Blue Herons in a striking mating dance. And while the contest is all about winged creatures, one photograph featured some supporting actors from the animal kingdom. Taken from San Juan Island in Washington State, you see a bald eagle, carrying a fox, which is carrying a rabbit. And all three are airborne. The photograph earned wildlife photographer Kevin Ebi an honourable mention at the Audubon Awards. But it's such a spectacular, and literal, depiction of the food chain, that we called Mr. Ebi up in Seattle.

MW: Mr. Ebi, I don't think our description of this photo does it justice. What are we looking at exactly?

KEVIN EBI: what you're looking at is a bald eagle that tried to steal a rabbit from a very young fox — a fox who was only a couple of months old — and ended up taking up both of the rabbit and the Fox up into the air for dramatic battle that played out over about eight seconds.

MW: Now, take us back to the day you captured this incredible image. What were you expecting to photograph that day?

KE: The whole purpose of that trip was actually not the photograph Eagles. It was to photograph foxes. This is a park on San Juan Island in northern Washington State. And it's a park that is actually known for these very cute foxes. The foxes were introduced to the island more than 100 years ago — about 10 years after rabbits were introduced to the island. And the foxes were originally introduced to hopefully keep the rabbit population in check. And instead, the population of both have actually climbed dramatically. The foxes are just such a cute, cute subject. So my time on the island was designed to capture these very young kids, who were just a couple of months old, at the peak of their cuteness doing cute Fox things. When the eagle presented an incredible opportunity that I did not expect at all.

MW: So what? You were lying on your stomach somewhere trying to photograph the fox…

KE: Oh, it was more comfortable. I was standing with my tripod. And the foxes were playing all day with each other. And one finally expressed some interest in a rabbit. And it had caught a rabbit, and I loved the fact that this tiny fox is carrying a rabbit that's almost as big as its head. And so I'm panning my camera with it across this beautiful prairie, which has some beautiful red grasses. It's some nice summer colour. And behind me, I hear the cry of a bald eagle. And I figured that the eagle was racing our way and was going to try to steal the rabbit away from the fox. So we have this this suppression that eagles are just incredibly strong predators, which they are. But what most people don't realize is that they actually don't want to work any harder for their food than they have to. And so they actually are quite skilled thieves. And what I expected was one explosive photo as the eagle swoops down and tries to steal this rabbit from the fox. And what I had not expected was that all three of them would take to the sky briefly.

MW: Yeah, I don't think the fox expected that either.

KE: Absolutely not.

MW: I mean what happened at that point? Was the load too heavy? Or was the fox too big to eat for the eagle?

KE: The load was far too heavy. Eagles can carry about half of their body weight, so that's about five pounds. So while the eagle was able to carry the fox and the rabbit up about 20 feet into the air briefly that was just sheer momentum because the eagle was flying so fast. Once it reached that height, it was a rapidly sinking back to Earth. And you could see the eagle trying to drop the fox but still keep the rabbit. But also, one of the eagle’s talons kind of snagged the scruff in the back of the foxe,s neck. What I did was after the fox was finally dropped, it kind of ran sheepishly to a den. It really did look like it escaped this encounter unharmed.

MW: Did it did it seem shaken right after?

KE: It seemed a little bewildered. There were other foxes that were happily playing around the field after this had happened. And it just kind of hunkered down in the den.

MW: So have you ever seen anything like this before?

KE: No, not at all. Normally I do a lot of research before I go out and capture photos just because I think we often give the equipment a lot of the prestige when there's a great photo. But I've just found that really understanding your subjects is the thing that allows you to be in the right place at the right time because you know where to go. And even in all of my research, I had just never uncovered that kind of behaviour.

MW: After you posted it, of course, the image went viral. And now, you've won this Audubon Photography Award. Why do you think people have been so drawn to this image?

KE: I think it's a couple of things. One, I don't think that the story would have taken off had the fox not been okay. You know when there are nature shows that you know the BBC runs, if it's a gory show, my wife won’t watch it. I mean I have to watch it by myself. And I think that's not uncommon. I think the fact that the fox ended up okay makes this a photo that for most people is okay to look at. I also think that people see different things in it. I think that there are a lot of people who certainly appreciate the bald eagle as this majestic bird. And seeing this majestic bird fly off with two animals certainly speaks to its strength. I also think that a lot of other people identify with the fox. And you know as they see the fox you know struggle to keep the dinner that was taken from it and escape with its life. This one photo really tells a very dramatic story about just an incredible encounter. Kind of gives everybody something to appreciate about it.

MW: Mr. Ebi, thanks very much for the photo, and thanks for speaking with me today.

KE: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

CH: Kevin Ebi is a wildlife photographer in Seattle. And if you're listening to this, wondering who actually got the rabbit in the end — it was the eagle. Mr. Ebi's incredible photograph of the rabbit, the fox and the bald-eagle got an honourable mention at the Audubon photography awards this month. You can see it on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Art Neville obit

CH: They don't call just anyone "Poppa Funk" — especially not in New Orleans. But Art Neville earned that nickname. For years, the singer, songwriter, and keyboardist performed alongside his brothers — first as "The Neville Sounds", and later as "The Neville Brothers". In between, he played with another of the greatest New Orleans bands of all time, The Meters. To say he was integral to the music and culture of the city is an understatement. In fact, when Art and his brothers returned to the New Orleans Jazz & Heritage Festival a few years after Hurricane Katrina, festival producer Quint Davis told a news conference their absence had been — quote — "a hole in the soul" of the city. That's now a hole that won't be filled. The great Art Neville died today at the age of 81.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Robert Morgenthau obit

Danforth shooting anniversary

CH: One year ago today, there was gunfire in Toronto's Greektown neighbourhood. Just before 10 p.m., while tourists and locals were out for dinner and walking along Danforth Avenue, a gunman went on a shooting spree, killing 2 people. One of those killed was 18-year-old Reese Fallon. Her friend Samantha Price was also shot, but survived the attack. Today, her parents, Ken Price and Claire Smith advocate against gun violence. This morning, Metro Morning guest host Reshmi Nair spoke with Mr. Price and Ms. Smith about how the shooting has affected their daughter. Here is some of what they had to say, starting with Claire Smith.

SOUNDCLIP

CLAIRE SMITH: We've always been very supportive of Samantha being able to go out anywhere in the city. And I would say you know we should still do that. I want everyone to know this is a great city. And I would go out in a heartbeat, any day, anywhere, back to the Danforth. It's a beautiful community. And she's getting there. I mean she's a little hesitant right now to go out on her own to certain places and to big events. But we’re supporting her in whatever she chooses.

RESHMI NAIR: She was at Nathan Phillips Square for the Raptors championship parade. There were gunshots there.

KEN PRICE: That's right. And I think that's the biggest thing for us if you ask the question about you know what is different is we no longer see gun violence as hypothetical. It's something that's happened to us. So the difference is you know kind of that you know visceral participation now in this debate — rather than you know being on the sidelines. So I think that's one thing.

RN: But what was that like for you? How did you find out that she was in that crowd?

KP: Well, she reached out. I think like many people in the crowd, there was great confusion. I mean there's a half a million people, and she was quite buffered. She got up at 4:30 in the morning, and she was like row twelve. So you know I mean so there's a lot of people between her and where the actual incident happened. So I think there was more confusion for most people. And then what ends up happening is your friends who are watching the broadcast start texting and messaging you. And you go oh my goodness, something's happened. So then she reached out to us at home saying do you know what's happened here? And so we had to try to you know again let her know that things were calm. But then they became a little less calm. And we were fortunate that she was able to find refuge actually at City Hall of all places.

RN: And it and it affects all of us, but I'm assuming it affects you two and Samantha differently?

KP: We were really shocked, and we were really worried for her. Absolutely, we thought wow this is a girl rebuilding her trust in these kinds of events, and then this happens.

CS: Yeah.

RN: So what do we do?

KP: Well, we think part of the answer is to just stem the flow and supply of guns. I know there's a great debate on this. We're not disagreeing that a lot of guns that end up in the hands of criminals are illegally sourced. But we also know that a lot of them are from legal sources. We believe less supply would help. So we are calling for a national ban on the private ownership of handguns and assault rifles, which is a consistent call from a number of organizations. And that's what we think will be part of the answer. There's lots more to talk about with respect to others you know social causes and so on. But we think that would be helpful. And that's a conclusion we've come to as a result of our experience.

CS: Yeah, it's a start. And I hope we can through the media as well reach out to more Canadians, and to bring awareness to the fact that there are now people owning over a million handguns legally now. And that was quite the shock to us to learn that as well. And again, the fact we have these in private ownership it's you know it's a concern.

CH: That's Ken Price and Claire Smith speaking to CBC Radio in Toronto. Their daughter, Samantha Price, survived a shooting in Toronto's Greektown neighbourhood, one year ago today.

[Music: Sombre]

Robert Morgenthau obit

Guest: John Moscow

CH: Robert M. Morgenthau was "America's DA." As Manhattan's longest-serving district attorney, he served nine terms — building a reputation for being fair, and for being tough on mobsters and white-collar crime. That reputation made him a legend, and the basis for a TV character: Adam Schiff, District Attorney of New York County on the show "Law and Order". Mr. Morgenthau died yesterday after a short illness. He was 99. By his own count, Robert Morgenthau supervised more than 3 million cases — including the murder of John Lennon, and the jailing of the Central Park Five. In that second case, the convictions were later vacated, after DNA testing pointed to another perpetrator. He came from a family with wealth and political ties — but one also steeped in public service. But back in 2009, Mr. Morgenthau attributed his commitment to his work to one event in particular.

SOUNDCLIP

ROBERT MORGEMTHAU: I made a commitment to do a long time ago. I had always thought of going into government service. But when my ship was torpedoed and sank off Algiers, and I was floating around in the water, and I made a number of promises the almighty when I didn’t have very much bargaining power. Well, that's how I got hooked.

REPORTER: And what was the promise you made?

RM: I devoted my life to public service.

REPOTER: How long after you made that promise were you rescued?

RM [slight chuckle] I don’t know. We're in the water about three hours, something like that.

CH: John Moscow is a lawyer who spent three decades prosecuting economic crimes alongside Robert M. Morgenthau at the New York County District Attorney's Office. We reached Mr. Moscow in New York.

MW: Mr. Moscow, I'm sorry for the loss of your friend and colleague.

JOHN MOSCOW: Oh, thank you.

MW: We just heard Robert Morgenthau explain his commitment to public service. And you were working in the New York County’s DA's office when Robert Morgenthau came in. What do you remember about the impact he had on that office and the changes that he made?

JM: [laughs] You don't have that kind of time. It was the best prosecutor's office under Frank Hogan, but it was old fashioned. And he brought a new way of thinking. He was more interested in international financial crime than loan sharking on the waterfront. I mean it was a different city as the years went by. So he changed the office. He raised the standards. Hired hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of young lawyers. And all he asked was that they do their very best.

MW: Now, he was someone who had a renowned sense of fairness and justice, and said it was important to go after crime on the streets.

JM: Well, was he said was crime in the streets and crime in the suites — meaning executive suites. He had to prosecute all of them.

MW: Where do you think that sense of fairness and justice came from?

JM: His parents. I mean you're asking where did he get the sense of justice that he displayed. I can't answer that. He had it.

MW: And that came across strongly when you were working with him?

JM: When you say strongly, that was the only way people were allowed to think, okay? So no, I mean it wasn't something that got discussed every day. It just wasn’t a question. First of all, is the defendant guilty? Second, do we have legally sufficient evidence? Third, will we win the trial, right? Those are the questions.

MW: Can you tell me about your first big case with him?

JM: The first time I had a case where I had to go up and talk to him about it was a nine defendant homicide case in which a group of rioters had run through Washington Square Park in downtown Manhattan yelling racial epithets and swinging at the heads of anyone whose skin colour was dark. And they killed a college student. They half-blinded an army vet. They hit I don’t 20 people or so in the head with baseball bats, table legs, and things. This was in I want to say September 8, 1976. And there was a relatively serious public outcry, as you could imagine. And the parents of the young man in the neighbourhood did not want their sons prosecuted. And they had a lot of political clout. The black community wanted the people who were involved in this prosecuted and convicted, which you can certainly understand. He took all the political heat. My only job was to get the witnesses into the grand jury and have them testify truthfully.

MW: What did you learn from him reporting to him on that case?

JM: What he stood for. What he was doing. You know, I watched him dealing with some of the politicians. And they came in with a mind to say don't prosecute this case. And he just wouldn't let them put their feet in their mouths. And instead, he recruited them to get himself funds for the office. I thought it was brilliant.

MW: Now, one of the biggest cases you worked on together was against the Bank of Credit and Commerce International — or BCCI — which was laundering money. How was your office able to take down this huge global enterprise?

JM: Carefully, piece by piece, one step at a time. Let me give you an example. The bank was registered with the New York State Banking Department. And one of the biggest assets the bank had in New York was a commercial mortgage on an expensive piece of real estate. And so I get permission from the banking department to go through their files. I found this asset. And I asked an investigator to go over to the clerk's office and get a copy of the mortgage. And he comes back and says there isn't one. And I complained bitterly about being asked to work with rookies. [laughs] And I sent him over with his supervisor. And they come back and say that they and the county clerk had gone through and there isn't one. So that asset wasn't worth what they said it was, and they were lying to the state banking department. In banking terms, this is you don’t do it.

MW: And how did Morgenthau respond to that news?

JM: Keep going.

[MW and JM laugh together]

MW: Now, he wasn't just able to get convictions. He could also admit that he was wrong. And, of course, there was the case in 2002, where he had the convictions vacated for the Central Park Five. That's the case were five African-American teenagers were wrongly convicted and imprisoned of a 1990 rape. What did Mr. Morgenthau make of that turnaround?

JM: That's what was called for. They were convicted based on confessions. And I don't know how the media have treated that. But at the time, the confessions were admissible, their parents were present, so fine, whatever, the confessions may have been lies. I'm not going to get into that. There came a time we found out that some guy was saying he had done it. And it turned out that his DNA was there. And we investigate the whole thing, and how could this screw up take place? The legal standard for setting aside a conviction is that you find newly discovered evidence that makes it more likely than not that a juror might change his mind. Well, this was surely that.

MW: Just one of many cases he was involved with over many years. That long career and commitment to justice was, in fact, the inspiration behind a character of “Law and Order” — D.A. Adam Schiff — played by Steven Hill. What did Robert Morgenthau make of that?

JM: I think he was pleased. He was amused. But he was also a little bit envious. He said you know that guy gets paid $35,000 a week for an half an hour of work. I could do that!

[MW and JM both laugh]

JM: You know, it was positive.

MW: John Moskow, thank you so much for speaking with me today. I know it hasn't been easy, so I appreciate it.

JM: All right. Take care.

MW: You too.

JM: Bye-bye

MW: Bye.

CH: John Moscow is a lawyer who spent three decades prosecuting economic crimes alongside the late Robert M. Morgenthau at the New York County District Attorney's Office. We reached Mr. Moscow in New York. Robert Morgenthau died yesterday. He was 99 years old.

[Music: Ambient]

Roy Halladay

CH: He played with the Toronto Blue Jays for over a decade, and the Philadelphia Phillies for three years after that. But when Roy Halladay was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame yesterday, his plaque bore neither team's logo. In an emotional speech on her late husband's behalf, Brandy Halladay said both franchises meant so much to her husband that it was impossible for the family to choose. Ms. Halladay went on to thank the baseball writers who elected the eight-time All-Star and two-time Cy Young Award winner to the Hall of Fame on his first-ever ballot. And paid an emotional tribute to the pitcher they called "Doc."

SOUNDCLIP

BRANDY HALLADAY: I've been asked over and over, how do you think Roy would feel if he were here? I'm pretty sure we all know the answer. Of course, he would be honoured and humbled. But I also know that in true Roy form, he would have quickly given any accolades or props to all of his coaches and teammates. He was a true competitor. He went to the field every day ready to do whatever it took to give his team the best possible chance to win. In a casual conversation last summer in Philly, I was talking with a friend and teammate of Roy’s, J.C. Romero, and he said to me Roy didn't play that way because he wanted to be in the Hall of Fame. He'll be in the hall because of the way he played. And I know that that's true. I think Roy would rather be remembered by who he was — not what he did on the ball field. He was a very private person, often quiet and introverted, but he was also very generous and caring. The kind of man who made outrageous bets, would lose on purpose to help out a friend. The kind of brother who left cash in his pockets when he asked his sister to help with laundry. Tell the nurse she could keep whatever she found. I did the same thing. I kept what I found too. He was a great coach, a nervous husband and father — only because he so desperately wanted to be as great and successful at home as he was in baseball. I think that Roy would want everyone to know that people are not perfect. We are all imperfect and flawed in one way or another. We all struggle. But with hard work, humility, and dedication, imperfect people can still have perfect moments.

CH: Brandy Halladay, speaking at her husband's induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, New York yesterday. Roy “Doc” Halladay died in 2017 when a plane he was piloting crashed into the Gulf of Mexico.

[Music: Sombre]

Attawapiskat visit

CH: Canada's Indigenous Services Minister Seamus O'Regan says his visit to Attawapiskat, Ontario this weekend was an emotional one. The isolated First Nations community on James Bay declared a state of emergency this month, because of elevated levels of a potentially harmful chemicals known as T-H-M in its tap water. It's just the latest setback in a long struggle to ensure safe drinking water for the community. And Mr. O'Regan says 1-point-5 million dollars will be spent to immediately flush out some of the community's water systems. But critics say that doesn't go far enough — particularly when the government is asking Attawapiskat to pay for its own bottled drinking water right now — and be reimbursed later. Here is Seamus O'Regan talking with CBC Sudbury this morning about that policy.

SOUNDCLIP

SEAMUS O’REGAN: We're going to look at that immediately, and find out what the needs are and what we can do in the short term. But I can't emphasize enough to that we do have a reverse osmosis system there in the community where people can get the water. And that the water is very good. You know, it meets the standards that at least we demand for water. I have to mention too the T-H-M levels, it takes a prolonged exposure — we believe up to about 70 years — before we start to see major negative consequences. And you know somebody presented me with tap water and asked me to drink it. I drank it because we know that the science is solid. But the point is that people don't have that faith. They do not have that faith in the water system. It's going to take a while to build back that trust. We're going to meet their needs as soon as we possibly can because we want them to feel safe. We want them to feel that you know they can they can wash their children. We want them to feel that they can wash their food. They should be able to do all those things.

MARKUS SCHWABE: What was your sense of the response from the community members from your visit?

SO: You know, they're shaken, there's no question about it. Every Canadian should feel that when they turn on their tap in their house that the water that comes out is safe. That the water that comes out is clean. And then they don’t feel that, and they let that known to me. And I said look, work with me. You know, they had said no Band-Aid solutions. I said I agree. You know, there should not be Band-Aid solutions.

MS: I gather an eight-year-old confronted you and asked if you are going to let her die?

SO: Yeah, she was quite shaken, and burst into tears. And you know I went over and comforted her as best I could. And said no, you know Canada does care about you. We do care about you. And we want to make sure that we do right by you. And I think we're on the path to doing that.

CH: Canada's Indigenous Services Minister Seamus O'Regan, talking with CBC Radio's Markus Schwabe.

[Music: Piano]

Dutch droppings

CH: In the Netherlands, tradition has it that children are dropped off in forests at night, and have to make it out on their own. This is: a, cruel, because the kids will be scared, plus what about bears; b, character-building, because the kids will learn self-reliance, and triumph over bears; or c, not really how it works, exactly, plus there are no bears. Most of the comments on a New York Times story published yesterday fall into one of those three categories. The article describes a Dutch tradition called "dropping" — where pre-teens are left alone in the woods, and have to navigate their way back to civilization. And while American commenters argue about whether that's a great idea, Dutch commenters have a few corrections. First, forests in the Netherlands aren't that scary. They're close to civilization, and no large predators live there. And second, it's hardly a nationwide rite of passage for all kids — which is why a woman from Amsterdam tweeted sardonically, quote: "True. It's part of our beautiful Dutch culture. That's why I gave birth eight times in the forest. Three of them eventually made it home, the strong and independent ones." Unquote. While a guy from the city of Leiden tweeted, quote: "You miss the part where our children have to fight an angry cow at the age of four. Those that fail are sacrificed to the ocean so we may survive another year without being flooded." Unquote. So maybe this story of droppings is actually a pile of droppings — which could mean trouble for the Times. And judging by the online mockery, the paper — unlike all those Dutch kids — is not out of the woods yet.

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July 22, 2019 episode transcript

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