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The AIH Transcript for July 18, 2019

Hosts: Robyn Bresnahan and Karen Gordon

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan, sitting in for Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening, I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

KG: Tonight:

RB: Measuring the risks. Three patients with violent pasts have gone AWOL from a Toronto psychiatric facility in just two months. Tonight, we ask where our guest strikes the balance between public safety and patients' rights.

KG: "The night that everything changed." A Toronto woman says she isn't finished fighting the former Gambian dictator who she says sexually assaulted her as a young woman.

RB: Home stretched. A new report warns that even if they're lucky enough to have full-time work, Canadians who earn minimum wage, simply can't afford to pay the cost of rent in most of the country's cities.

KG: Don't let it slide. Our guest says the members of his B.C. First Nation are getting ready for sockeye to make their way up the Fraser River. But they're worried the fish won't arrive if something isn't done about the rockslide way down river.

RB: That's perusing their noodle! A team of marine biologists sends a submersible on a deep dive off the U.S east coast and are rewarded with the rare video of a starfish that resembles a deliciously-stuffed ravioli.

KG: And, spider-damned. A Nebraska sculpture of Spiderman’s hands is seen as demonic and offensive, after the webslinger's outstretched fingers are mistaken for devil's horns.

KG: As It Happens, the Thursday edition. Radio that cuts through all the spin.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: CAMH NCR case, rent report, starfish expert

CAMH NCR case

Guest: Richard Schneider

KG: In 2016, Zhebin Cong was found not criminally responsible in the death of a tenant in the rooming house where he was living. He was committed to a psychiatric facility. Then he went missing, while on an unescorted day pass from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health, or CAMH, in Toronto. Police say the 48-year-old man took an international flight. A search is underway, but the case has sparked criticism from many, including Ontario Premier Doug Ford, who spoke about it with Newstalk 1010.

SOUNDCLIP

DOUG FORD: Well, I'm disgusted with it. It's unbelievable. They say this guy is low-risk? Like what are people thinking? You know, between the TPS, The Ontario Review Board, and CAMH, someone is going to be answering. Because if they’re calling this low-risk, what is high-risk?

KG: To make matters worse, two other patients with violent pasts have also failed to return to CAMH within a two month span. Both were found and returned to the psychiatric facility. Richard Schneider is an Ontario judge and chair of the Ontario Review Board, the independent tribunal that sets the terms of supervision and management for people found not criminally responsible in the province. We reached him in Toronto.

RB: Justice Schneider, how is it that a man being detained at a mental health centre after being found not criminally responsible is able to take off, board an international flight, and leave the country?

RICHARD SCHNEIDER: [slight laugh] Well, that's a complicated question. Individuals subject to the jurisdiction of the Ontario Review Board when placed into the community actually have lower recidivism rates than individuals being released from any other process. So it's an atypical occurrence for sure. How it was that he got himself onto a flight and apparently left the country, the police who are conducting an investigation I'm sure would have a more informed response to that question.

RB: How much of a risk was he deemed to be to the public?

RS: Well, in order to maintain jurisdiction under the Ontario Review Board, individuals, first of all, have to be found to constitute a significant threat to the safety of the public. And that was this gentleman’s set of circumstances. So given that starting point, the question is, how can the risk that he poses be mitigated to an extent that would allow him to be gradually reintroduced into the community? And as I understand it, with the conditions that were in place managed by CAMH, he was deemed to be in that context with those sorts of supports and supervision. He was deemed to be a low-risk.

RB: What questions do you have about this case?

RS: Well, this this gentlemen's cases is really frankly not unlike hundreds of others that the Review Board oversees. You have to appreciate that we are in the business — and CAMH is in the business — of predicting. And inherent in any process of prediction is an element of error. And if, for example, you had a system of prediction which was 99 per cent accurate, most would agree that that's a terrific system. But inherent in that is one out of 100 where things don't go exactly as expected. And that appears to be what we're dealing with in this instance.

RB: Is there anything else that you think that CAMH could have done to prevent this?

RS: No, I don't really think so. We have the utmost confidence in CAMH. They're an exemplary group of clinicians. And I would expect that if the same decisions had to be made in respect of this gentleman again, they would have been made in precisely the same way.

RB: Because you know that there will be some people who were listening to that talk show that Premier Ford called in to. And they are going to be wondering the same thing — how a man with a violent past, who stabbed another man in his rooming house, was out on a day pass without supervision?

RS: Well, first of all, I appreciate that response. And I understand it. But at the time that the what we call index offence occurred, he as a result of being psychotic at the time, obtained a verdict of not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder. Subsequent to all of that. However, he has been treated and has been, as I understand it, doing relatively well. The sorts of passes that he has been on are, first of all, gradually introduced. And I understand that for this gentleman, he had been on similar passes for several months without incident. So that for an event like this to take place, it's not something that one would say they're reasonably prudent practitioner should have expected.

RB: Ultimately, whose decision was it to grant Mr. Cong an unsupervised community pass?

RS: Well, individuals such as this gentleman are reviewed not less than annually. And, of course, they're in the care of one of our eleven forensic facilities — CAMH being one of them. And at the end of every hearing, the Review Board issues what's known as a disposition — which is a range of discretion extended to the administrator of the hospital that can be deployed depending on clinical circumstances, infrastructure circumstances, and other logistics. The dispositions of necessity have to have built into them a certain degree of elasticity to reasonably carry the individual through the next 12 months, given the rehabilitative trajectory that he appears to be on. So as to whether on a day-to-day basis discretion is extended, that's in the hands of the hospital to be deployed at their discretion — because they, after all, are most familiar with how the patient is doing on an hour-to-hour, day-to-day basis.

RB: Now, how do you respond when you hear the premier saying you can't let guys like this on the loose? You throw away the key.

RS: Well, the scheme that we have in place has been in place for, well, since Canada's inception. And the idea is that for individuals who are mentally ill and commit behaviour that we've identified as criminal while mentally ill, our objective is to get them better — and to gradually, and in a supervised manner, reintroduce them into the community. So the idea that somebody should have the key thrown away or something to that effect, that's entirely antithetical to the whole philosophy driving the legislation — which is federal, of course. It ironically makes things worse rather than better. Incarceration increases the probability of recidivism rather than decreases the probability of recidivism. Really the only reliable science on reducing recidivism is as rehabilitation.

RB: Justice Schneider, thank you very much for your time today.

RS: My pleasure. Bye bye. Thank you.

KG: Richard Schneider is chair of the Ontario Review Board. We reached him in Toronto. The Centre for Addiction and Mental Health declined our request for an interview.

[Music: Indie]

Rent report

Guest: Alex Hemingway

KG: Forget about saving to buy a home in a major city in Canada. You may not even be able to afford a place to rent. Today, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives released a report that says people working full-time at minimum wage jobs simply cannot afford to pay for rent in most Canadian cities. Alex Hemingway is an economist with the think tank. We've reached him in Vancouver.

RB: Mr. Hemingway, how much on average do Canadians have to earn per hour to afford a two-bedroom apartment in this country?

ALEX HEMINGWAY: On average, across the country, you would need to earn 22 dollars an hour and 40 cents to afford the average two-bedroom apartment across the country. Of course, there's a huge amount of variation. And you know one of the things that we're noting in particular is how far away that wage is from the from the minimum wage that so many people earn in our country.

RB: Right, because minimum wage ranges from — depending what province you're in — anywhere from 11 dollars to 15 dollars. And you're saying you'd have to earn 22 dollars and 40 cents?

AH: Exactly, and you know we know that 25 per cent of families across the country are earning at the minimum wage or within three dollars of it. So it is a big part of the population that we're talking about here.

RB: So how did we get into this situation? Why has rent become so unattainable for Canadians who work 40 hours a week on a minimum wage?

AH: Well, one of the big problems is we saw an enormous drop off in the construction of publicly-funded affordable housing and rental housing in general over the past couple of decades — in particular since the early 90s and up to just the past couple of years. We saw that construction really drop off. And so we essentially have a kind of lost generation in terms of the construction of rental homes in this country. So we really need to see a reinvestment on the public side and an additional build-out of all sorts of rental housing.

RB: So how are people coping with this?

AH: Well, it's very tough. So you know if you look where I'm speaking to you from here in Vancouver, if you're a minimum wage worker and you're trying to afford a one-bedroom apartment, you'd have to work 84 hours a week at that wage. It's simply not a realistic situation for most people.

RB: Your report is pretty comprehensive. It looks at nearly 800 neighbourhoods in Canada's three-dozen biggest cities. In how many of those neighbourhoods could a minimum wage worker afford to rents an average two-bedroom apartment say?

AH: Well, it's quite extraordinary. There are only 24 neighborhoods — three per cent of those we looked at in Canada — where a full-time minimum wage worker could afford that average two-bedroom apartment. And you know there is reason to believe this may be understating how bad the situation is — that average includes all sorts of variation. It includes tenants who have been in their units for a long time, and may be benefiting from rent control. But if you're looking for an apartment right now as a minimum wage worker, the market rents are going to be even higher than that average.

RB: Does that number improve at all for a one-bedroom?

AH: Well, it's quite extraordinary. There are only 24 neighbourhoods — three per cent of those we looked at in Canada — where a full-time minimum wage worker could afford that average two-bedroom apartment. And you know there is reason to believe this may be understating how bad the situation is — that average includes all sorts of variation. It includes tenants who have been in their units for a long time and may be benefiting from rent control. But if you're looking for an apartment right now as a minimum wage worker, the market rents are going to be even higher than that average.

RB: So when we're talking about those two-bedroom neighbourhoods, the 24 neighbourhoods that people could afford on a minimum wage salary I take it none of those are in Toronto or Vancouver?

AH: That's right. So there are no neighbourhoods in those biggest markets — Toronto, Vancouver, and actually many other cities across the country, including Victoria, where that full-0time minimum wage worker could afford either the one or the two bedroom apartment without spending more than 30 per cent of their earnings, which is really what the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation uses as their income threshold too to assess what they call core housing need.

RB: So which city cities still have affordable rentals available?

AH: Well, in relative terms some of the cities that are doing best are in Quebec, and in particular, in terms of the big cities, Montreal is doing better. So, for example, the two-bedroom rental wage in Montreal is 16 dollars an hour. You know that's still higher than the minimum wage, but certainly performing a lot better than much of the rest of the country.

RB: What do you think the consequences will be in the long term if things don't improve?

AH: Well, there are many consequences that are difficult to think about. We're seeing people particularly on lower incomes being squeezed further and further out of our cities. This is actually a climate change issue as well. When we don't build rental housing for folks who need it in our cities, that encourages sprawl, and we see that in our major centres — car-oriented sprawl that moves further and further out of the cities. And it simply means that it's going to be a drag on people's personal finances, and also a drag on the economy. When folks are having to pay exorbitant amounts for rent, it makes it very difficult for companies to find the workers they need.

RB: You were working on this report, meanwhile, this is all kind of personal for you. Tell us where you're speaking to us from?

AH: Sure. I'm speaking to you from my rental home, which is 330 square foot attic suite of a very old house in Vancouver. And you know many renters depend on these types of secondary suites, which is actually quite an insecure type of housing because you can be shifted out by the owners of the house at any time. So that's another reason why purpose-built rental housing is so important.

RB: Do you mind, Alex, me asking how much you pay for your attic rental suite?

AH: Sure. Well, I'm lucky enough that I've been here for nine years. So thanks to rent control, my rent is 940 bucks a month, which by Vancouver standards, is very affordable. I will tell you it's very hot up here in the summer up in the attic.

RB: Right, so not exactly sustainable — but luckier than most at that kind of rent in Vancouver. Alex, it was good to talk to you today. Thank you very much.

AH: Thank you.

RB: Bye-bye.

AH: Bye.

KG: Alex Hemingway is an economist with the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives. We reached him in Vancouver.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Starfish expert

Guest: Christopher Mah

KG: Christopher Mah sees a lot of dead deep-sea starfish. He's even got one embalmed on his desk. But it's not every day he gets to see these rare species alive. Now, that's changed — thanks to a star-studded three-week mission by the Okeanos Explorer. While cruising Atlantic waters off the southeastern coast of the U.S. this month, the "Windows to the Deep" expedition spotted a number of remarkable sea stars. Including one that looks, disturbingly, like... ravioli. Mr. Mah is part of a team of scientists analysing footage from the Okeanos Explorer remotely. We reached him in his office at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History in Washington, D.C.

RB: Mr. Mah, can you start by describing this so-called ravioli starfish for us?

CHRISTOPHER MAH: Certainly. So this is a sea star — one that lives in the deep sea — and rather than the familiar shape that people might know about with more tapering arms, these have an almost entirely pentagon shape. These are animals that have been around probably for quite a long time. And there are fossils of animals similar to this in the time of the dinosaurs. I think people think of it as a ravioli because the surface is inflated. And so it's that really strong, swollen, inflated look which gives it the look of a plump pasta.

RB: What can you learn from watching this creature in action?

CM: So some of the video that we watched — the ones that were showing these species feeding on a large sponge — are some of the first video of this species feeding. And so that's really interesting for a number of reasons. Because there were multiple individuals feeding on the sponge, and that was really unusual. Number one, we'd never seen them feeding, which in itself was novel. But the fact that they were in a group was amazing. Because — and most people don't realize this — but sea stars move, but they're they move very slowly. And when you accelerate them with time-lapse video, you actually see that — at least the shallow-water species — display a lot of behavioural complexity — the same level of complexity as like Savanna mammals. And seeing them like this tells us a huge amount about what these animals do down there. Because for years all we had was like the dead specimens. We had no idea that they were capable of this kind of feeding, and much less in groups.

RB: Can you tell us I mean how does a starfish eat a sponge exactly?

CM: Ah, so sea stars have a big mouth on the underside of their body. So all they have to do when they're feeding is essentially crawl over something, and their stomach just inverts right out onto the food that they're eating.

RB: And does the sponge have any chance against sea sir or a starfish? I mean do they have any defences?

CM: Ah, yes, they have toxic body chemicals. And the sponges in question — the ones that were observed being fed upon — have they're kind of like splinters called spicules. And so they have defensive structures that are made of glass. These don't appear to be serving that animal particularly well. But there are a lot of sea stars attacking this one sponge. This is part of the big question and the mystery is what has drawn all of the sea stars to this sponge? And sponges are important in deep sea ecosystems. They provide you know habitat for other animals. And you know and so seeing them interact with predators like this is really unusual, and important to understanding the ecology of deep sea bottoms.

RB: This is so fascinating because I think a lot of people see a regular starfish on the beach, and they'd have no idea that they are capable of what you are describing. It almost sounds like they act like they're in gangs.

CM: [an informed laugh] There's a whole different world that people don't see because of the fact that these sea stars move very, very slowly, but they do move with directed behaviour. And so it would I think surprise a lot of people that sea stars are capable of almost this almost brutal kind of attack. You think of them as living, carnivorous raviolis attacking this sponge. And on top of it, we also have the sea urchin, which has joined in on the fray. You know, it's a really unusual type of event. And in a lot of ways, it harkens to again a sort of Savannah you know watching some antelope being brought down by lions and hyenas and other kinds of predators.

RB: It's just it's absolutely fascinating stuff. I mean of all the species that you could have studied, why did you choose the starfish?

CM: [dry laugh] That's a good question. I was brought up to be really interested in weird things. I really love my old Saturday afternoon monster movies. And at the same time, my dad would take me down to the aquariums or to freshwater lakes, and we would look at stuff under microscopes and see all sorts of interesting worms and other protozoans and other things. And I just after a while I just developed this great love of these really interesting animals you know which is most animals really — invertebrates. And it's fascinating to me because up until the advent of social media, these things were all the domain of scientists. I'm honestly astonished sometimes how widespread the knowledge has become. You know, I've seen deep sea animals on T-shirts now. [RB laughs deeply] that when I was growing up, I could literally count on one hand the number of people who knew what those things were.

RB: Mr. Mah, it was really good to talk to you. And thanks for being so passionate about sea stars.

CM: Thank you.

RB: Bye-bye.

KG: Christopher Mah is a researcher with the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History. We reached him in Washington, D.C. You can see lots of pictures of starfish, including the one that looks like ravioli, on our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: The big-band feel of the iconic 60s Spiderman theme song]

Spiderman hands

KG: There's been some confusion about Spiderman. You know, the friendly neighbourhood Spiderman. The one who does whatever a spider can. Well, a woman in Lincoln, Nebraska doesn't like his spider hands. To be precise, she demanding that the mayor remove a six-foot tall sculpture of Spiderman's hands. The art piece shows Spidey's palms upturned, ring and middle fingers drawn in, prepared to spin a web of any size, no doubt to catch thieves just like flies. But the woman's hang-up seems to be that she's mistaken Spiderman for a less bang-up guy. She's written to say, quote, "it is a sculpture of two hands open, painted Red & Black, and formed into Devil Horns. This is completely anti-Christian, and demonic, and completely offensive." Unquote. Her conclusion is that the piece is a, quote, "hate crime against the church." Unquote. Which came as a surprise to the young men and women of the ministry of Lincoln Youth of Christ. That's the non-profit group that put up the installation as part of what they hoped would be an inspirational exhibit called Serving Hands. The group's director told the Lincoln Journal Star, quote, "The sculptureis most definitely not a devil-related sculpture." But Spiderman's fans know this isn't their hero's first brush with a public that misunderstands. Fortunately, wealth and fame he ignores, after all... action is his reward.

Part two: Beauty queen rape allegations, rock slide salmon

Beauty queen rape allegations

Guest: Fatou Jallow

KG: He "treated Gambian women like his personal property." That's what a Human Rights Watch report says about Yahya Jammeh. The group spoke with three women who accuse the former Gambian president of committing acts of sexual violence while he was in office. Fatou "Toufah" Jallow is one of those women. She was 18 when she won a government-organized beauty pageant. Ms. Jallow alleges that is was after that the Mr. Jammeh raped her. Mr. Jammeh left the country after he lost the last election and his APRC party has denied the allegations. Ms. Jallow is now 23, and living in Toronto. She just returned from a trip to Gambia, where she spoke out about her story. We reached Fatou "Toufah" Jallow in Toronto. And a warning, her story involves violence.

RB: Ms. Jallow, first of all, how come it was so important for you to come forward and tell your story, even use your name. The other two women in this report did not use theirs, but you used yours. How come?

FATOU JALLOW: It was important for me to start a conversation. You know, all these years in Canada having all the support that I have in this country, I look back home. And there is no examples for me. There’s no support for women. There is a taboo surrounding the issue of rape. We do not even talk about it. So for me, it was important to set the stage for other younger girls in my position to be able to have this conversation and maybe seek help.

RB: Can you take us back five years ago, when you first met the former President of Gambia Yahya Jammeh, what sorts of things did he offer you after you won this beauty pageant?

FJ: I was a teen. The beauty pageant was a national pageant organized by the state to be offered a scholarship to go and study abroad. So, of course, besides the crown and the women and, of course, the scholarship you supposed to apply for, he did offer me to work at the State House as an assistant, which I felt I couldn't do at the time. He also went on to offer gifts like bringing water into our home and also buying some furniture — initially, all under the disguise of gifts as a winner, but nothing personal really.

RB: But then he asked you to marry him.

FJ: Right, yeah. Immediately when he said it, I really thought it was maybe a test. He was trying to see my position on it. I really didn't think that he meant it. But then he did. And when I realized that, I told him I couldn't do that. First, I was too young. I have grown up really detesting the culture of early marriage in our community. So I said no to him. And I think that was the root cause of his anger and remorse towards me, really.

RB: Eventually he summoned you back to the State House again for a Ramadan event. What happened?

FJ: um, that was the night everything changed. I went for this Koran recitation. And, unfortunately, I was asked to sit in a room to wait before I could take my public seating. And a girl who was almost a pimp to him, and also a relative, and also worked at the State House did leave me in the room alone in the disguise that she was going to go and get water. And there I was. And minutes later, the ex-president walks in, and he was very angry at me, you know? He asked how dare I, a little village girl really from not a very strong background will have the audacity to say no to his marriage proposal? He pushed me into a room. I begged and pleaded and screamed, and he told me that no one would hear me, of course. And I fought back. And at some point, I couldn't anymore. And he did inject me, and. said all the derogatory things that he could. And he claimed that this would have been nicer if I had just accepted the proposal. And he raped me. And I was unconscious from whatever he injected me with for some time. Coming back to consciousness, he did tell me to get out of the room as he went on to grace the religious occasion he was supposed to host. And his guards did tell me that he is the president, and they will do anything to protect him. I stumbled out of there in a car I was and then taken back to my home that late night.

RB: I'm so sorry.

FJ: Yeah.

RB: I’m very sorry that happened to you. I understand you also remember the look and the colour of his eyes. What did his eyes look like?

FJ: Of rage, but also of excitement. And it's like you almost punishing someone, but thinking that the punishment is justifiable in that moment. Yeah, it was a sight I have never seen before, really.

RB: Did you tell anyone about what happened that day?

FJ: [sigh] No, and I'm actually telling it now when I decided to come out four years later. On that night, I didn’t. Putting aside the fact that it was rape, and how survivors and victims, the first thing they want to do is to pretend like it didn't happen or to erase it. Is that it wasn’t also the normal country. It was a dictatorship of 22 years in a country where even saying the president is ugly could cost you your life. Who was I supposed to go to and tell them that he just raped me?

RB: You decided to flee the country. Where did you go?

FJ: When I received a second call again from the same protocol telling me that there would be an event that I was supposed to go to. And then it hit me for the first time that this is not a one-time thing, you know? He's going to keep doing this until my no’s become yes, apparently. So I decided that I would rather die or whatever, but I'm not going to go through this again. So I just pretended like I was going to the market to shop, and I fled to the neighbouring country Senegal. And not communicating with my family in any of that, I sought help in Senegal. I had my cases at the UNCHR, and that's where I was for like two to three months, and until my case was heard in Canada. And I filed my case, and three months later or two, I found myself in Toronto.

RB: Your family must have been so worried about you. When did you finally tell them what had happened?

FJ: I was relating to my aunt, who lived in the U.K. at the time, who would tell them that I was fine. I wasn’t dead or anything. That I was okay, and I promise that I will explain to them later. But then I didn't, you know? When I came to Canada is when I started to speak to my mom — four months later. And she just wanted to know if I was okay and if I was fine? And I said yes. But we never really spoke about the details of what happened. And she suspected it, but she was scared to ask me. Again, it is such a taboo topic in my culture really that a mom doesn't know how to ask her daughter. A father doesn't know how to have that conversation. So we never really had it — until two years ago, when I started to contemplate that I want to come out. I want to tell my story. That is when I did tell her some of the details.

RB: Yahya Jammeh, through his party, has denied all of your allegations. The story amongst the party has been called a smear campaign. And Mr. Jammeh's party has described him as a very respectable, God-fearing, and pious leader who has nothing but respect for our Gambian women. What do you make of that response?

FJ: A statement I've been here since I was one year old, Yahya’s God-fearing persona and respect for woman. So that's nothing new. Again, it’s important to note that. Yahya Jammeh himself has not responded. And the party when I went to Gambia decided to have a press conference. And in it, when the journalist asked them did Yahya Jammeh, speak to you? Was your response in any relation to something you've spoken to him about? They replied no, that they haven't spoken to him about this. So until Yahya Jammeh responds I am focused on my course to have this conversation and to bring him to justice.

RB: If you ever had the chance to meet Yahya Jammeh, what would you say to him?

FJ: Biggest mission of my life is to actually meet him in a courtroom. And I want you to answer the question because when he walked into me into that room, he asked me who did I think I was you know to deny him your marriage or my body? And what I would like to say to him is that I am that girl that has risen from the ashes and here to haunt him, and men like him. And to dismantle every power that he thought he had in that moment.

RB: Ms. Jallow, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us today.

FJ: Thank you so much for having me.

RB: Bye-bye.

FJ: Bye.

KG: That was Fatou "Toufah" Jallow, in Toronto. For more on her story, visit our webpage at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Strings]

LR: Moon memories

KG: It only took a few hours but, 50 years later, the NASA moon walk continues to inspire people here on earth. In the lead-up to the 50th anniversary of the moon landing, we've been asking for your stories of where you were, and what you were doing on July 19, 1969. Janice Anderson wrote that she was 12 that year, and she and her family were staying in what she calls "a primitive cabin in the woods in eastern Ontario." She continues: "My parents had friends who came to visit and brought a black-and-white portable TV and a generator. They were not going to miss the moon walk even if they were in the middle of nowhere without electricity. We sat and watched the moon walk on tv while sitting outdoors with a fire. We could look up thru the trees to look at the moon and then back to the tv. ... I will never forget that evening." She isn't the only one. Here are some of the calls to Talkback.

SOUNDCLIP

[sound: A loud beep]

ANDY GORDON: Hey it's Andy Gordon calling from Damascus, Ontario. July 20^th, 1969, I was standing on the end of a dock in Smoke Lake, Algonquin Park as a 14-year-old kid, just totally amazed. I said to my dad, who was standing beside me, wow Dad, there's a guy up there. And he at me and said wow Son, there's a guy up there. And it was a perfect father-son moment in the midst of Algonquin Park on a clear starry night.

[sound: A loud beep]

HONOUR CRONIN: Hello, my name is Honour Cronin. I live in Brampton. It was my first date. I was 18. He just turned 19. We were in Ireland. And after our first date, I came home to my house — he to his. And we both stayed up until 4:00 o’clock-5:00 o’clock in the morning to watch the moon landing, and Neil Armstrong walk on the moon. It was about five-to-four in Ireland because we’re five-hour difference. But little did I know then that that boy that I went out with that night, my first date, he has been my husband for 48 years, and were together for 50. A very easy day to remember. Thank you. Bye-bye.

KG: Thanks for all your calls and e-mails. If you'd like to share your memories of the moon landing — give Talkback a ring: 416-205-5687. And our e-mail is: aih@cbc.ca.

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: El Salvador case

KG: Evelyn Beatriz Hernandez Cruz was just 18 when she gave birth in a bathroom. The El Salvador woman lost consciousness, and was taken to the hospital. Afterwards, her baby was found dead in that bathroom. Ms. Hernandez said she hadn't known she was pregnant — and that she had been raped by a gang member. But she would later be found guilty of homicide. It was a ruling that drew criticism from many activists in the country that has strict rules on abortion -- and sometimes even prosecutes women who miscarry. The country's Supreme Court overturned that decision this year and has ordered a new trial — after her lawyers argued that there wasn't evidence that the baby's death was her fault. Ms. Hernandez was in court this week for the new trial. From our archives, here's guest host Laura Lynch's speaking with activist Sara Garcia in 2017 — after Ms. Hernandez received a 30 year sentence.

[sc]

LL: Have you ever seen a case like this before?

SARA GARCIA: Of course, we in the work that we do, we have many cases. Recently was Teresa's case. She was a woman that also was condemned to four years. Then, after we fight a lot you know legally and social fight that we have, she released she was released in May last year and now she asked for a asylum in Sweden because they wanted to return her to prison.

LL: So she went. She's asking for asylum in Sweden because the authorities want her back in jail.

SARA GARCIA: They already gave the asylum in Sweden. Sweden said that they were going to give that asylum because El Salvador cannot protect her until they change the law that are persecuting women in El Salvador.

LL: How many women would you say have been in the same situation?

SARA GARCIA: In this moment, we have found that there are 20 women that are living the same reality as Evelyn.

LL: Twenty women?

SARA GARCIA: Twenty.

KG: From our archives, that was activist Sara Garcia speaking about the case of Evelyn Beatriz Hernandez Cruz in 2017. She is now facing a retrial in El Salvador.

[Music: Ambient]

Rock slide salmon

Guest: Darren Haskell

KG: This time of year is usually exciting for members of the Tl'azt'en First Nation. It's when the sockeye salmon come swimming up the Fraser River in British Columbia. But the First Nation hasn't been able to mark that milestone this year -- because the fish haven't arrived at all. About eight-hundred kilometres downstream from Tl'azt'en, a massive rock slide has blocked the sockeye from their journey. And that worries Darren Haskell. He's the natural resources director for the community. We reached him in Tl'azt'en First Nation, B.C.

RB: Mr. Haskell, can you give us a sense of the before and after? How did this section of river look before the landslide? How does it look now?

DARREN HASKELL: Well, the section right where it is, it was a flat section. And you know there was fish passage through it. It is canyon area, so the fish were able to get through. It was just a bit narrower than most parts of the Fraser River. And right now, we have the rock slide there. And there's a five metre falls that this water is flowing through at a very high velocity. So that's kind of the issue that we're facing here.

RB: Any idea how the rock slide happened?

DH: I don't know. It was first reported on June 21st. And you know we were assuming that that's when it was. But I'm hearing that it may have happened over the winter.

RB: What impact has all of this had on the salmon's ability to swim through that passage?

DH: Oh, it's impacted them greatly because the velocity going through that area, the fish just can't get up against that current. And with a five metre drop there it just makes it that much harder. We're considering it a blockage of the river basically. We're not sure as to how many fish have gotten past at all — or if any.

RB: So can you describe what's happening to the fish so far? I mean are they all just stuck there in kind of a traffic jam, a bottleneck?

DH: Yeah, this falls created a big back eddy below. And I would figure that they're milling about in that area or probably in an area further down that has some cleaner water. With the murkiness in the water the fish don't like that that's fine sediment getting into their gills. It can actually suffocate them a bit.

RB: And where would they actually go if they couldn't get past that area with the falls. What would happen to them?

DH: They have to have an internal clock I guess you could call it. They know when they're ready to spawn. They have internal fat stores that they use up as their energy trying to get up the river. And when it's time for them to usually spawn, and they've used up all their energy, they'll find the nearest tributary stream or any kind of stream that’s draining into the Fraser, and they'll just kind of go in there. They probably won't spawn. They'll just kind of go in there and die and swim in there. They have the energy to go anywhere and they just kind of die.

RB: And how critical are these salmon supplies for First Nations along the river?

DH: Oh, they're supercritical. A lot of First Nations actually use some of the salmon for some of their traditional ceremonies. They have first fish ceremonies that happen all along the Fraser. Up here, it's really a sign that summer is here. And we're allowed to use a few for food. Snd because we're a lot of First Nations are faced with kind of a higher unemployment rates, the dependence on these traditional foods are huge. And if people go without salmon for the year, you know it's a very healthy way for us eat. And it's been a part of our diet and our culture for many, many generations. And not everybody up here can drive to the grocery store when they need food. I mean a lot of them kind of have limited incomes and go once a month to the grocery store. So when they run out, they depend on salmon especially is huge.

RB: So given all this, what kind of conversations are you having with people in your community? Are they are they feeling quite fearful?

DH: Yeah, right now, our chief and councillor are kind of tasking them with making arrangements with other Nations that have access to other runs to maybe truck some fish up. That's not ideal for us. It's not really a part of our culture because you know gathering salmon and gathering food is really a big social event at each landing spot where people bring their nets in, you know? It's always never just one family. There's always a number of families and a number of different members. They’re always you know preparing fish. And it’s a gathering as a social event. And it's important because preparing the food is as a part of our culture. Our way of drying fish is just important to our culture and keeping that alive.

RB: So what ideas are on the table right now to get the water flowing again.

DH: You know, there's a number of options that were presented to us sort of using a natural sort of method by dropping more boulders to below to create more of a step ladder for them to make it up and steps rather than making one large jump over this five metre falls. Another method that they really have been discussing was a woosh system — a pneumatic tube system.

RB: Oh, that's the Salmon Cannon, as it's called.

DH: Salmon Cannon, yeah. That’s you know a very innovative idea.

RB: And just for people who we've talked about it on the show before, but some people might not remember. But how does the salmon cannon actually work?

DH: A simple description of it is basically it's a tube — a pneumatic tube — that uses air pressure. It sucks them up into the plastic or rubber tube and basically shoots them all the way above where the impasse is. It's being used on the Columbia River for a number of dams there. It's already been in use.

RB: So it works, but it sure looks weird.

DH: It does look weird. I mean when I first saw a video of it, you know I had a laugh at it. I didn’t think it was real.

RB: The other option that I heard the other night is to actually fly the fish by helicopter in buckets to be released upstream. But you wonder how feasible that is, considered that you know you're expecting three million sockeye later this summer.

DH: Yeah, I think the feasibility of a lot of these options is being considered. That's why the natural passage method is kind of being looked at first. The woosh system itself is the number that was given us was about four-point-four million to pay for that system.

RB: It must feel a little bit like a race against time right now?

DH: It is definitely a race against time, you know? And we have field trips that kind of monitor the creeks up here. And we're starting our work next week. So I think that’ll give us an idea if any made it through at all. We are running out of time — especially for just kind of trying to conserve this run, trying to make sure this run survives — this cycle run anyways.

RB: Well, Mr. Haskell, I hope you and your community find a solution soon. That would give everybody a lot of relief. Thank you very much for taking the time.

DH: Yeah, not a problem. Thanks for having me.

RB: Okay. Take care. Bye-bye.

DH: All right. Bye.

KG: Darren Haskell is the natural resources director for Tl'azt'en First Nation, B.C

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July 18, 2019 episode transcript

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