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The Current Transcript for July 17, 2019

Host: David Common

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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VOICE 1: I'm a be real with y'all, I am mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually exhausted. I could be happier.

DAVID COMMON: IISuperwomanII, Lilly Singh, stepped back after all that. Overwhelmed by social media, the Canadian YouTube sensation focussed, instead, on her mental well-being. And a comprehensive study backs up that strategy. Could be a good idea to take a pause from the fear of missing out, the judgment, the nastiness, the pull of instant gratification. First up today we're asking when is it a good time to take a break from your social feeds? And then.

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VOICE 1: He saw oil as very much a gift from God. This was something bestowed on the Alberta people.

DC: The connections between evangelicals and Alberta's foray into oil and how Christianity was once intertwined with Canada's oil sands, and in some ways, may still be. The author of a very thick new book will speak with us. And then.

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VESPER LYND: You think of women as disposable pleasures rather than meaningful pursuits. So as charming as you are, Mr. Bond, I will be keeping my eye on our government's money and off your perfectly formed arse.

DC: Yeah, 007 has been a womanizer in the past, but the secret agent is going to be a woman in the next Bond film. There's celebration in some quarters, anger in others, and questions about whether Hollywood writers can get this 007 right. I'm Common. David Common. And this is the Summer Edition of The Current.

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Social media can be a 'toxic space' for young people, says woman who took 2-year hiatus

Guests: Arjun Ram, Asiya Barakzai

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BAILEY PARNELL: "I'm fat. Wow I'm fat." "She's only 19 years old? What am I doing with my life?!" "Hey, two likes! Nice." Welcome to the internal monologue of a typical social media scroll.

DC: That the voice of Bailey Parnell, a Canadian social media expert. But you don't have to be one to relate to her message. Anyone who's spent time on you name it - Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, YouTube - knows that social media is typically a highlight reel. An endless scroll of images featuring people who seem perhaps fitter, or more popular, or more fun than you. Now research out of Canada shows that those images may be genuinely harmful for young people. A new study from researchers at the University of Montreal showed links between social media use and symptoms of depression. The researchers analyzed survey data from almost 4000 teens over the span of four years. They found higher levels of depression symptoms the more participants use social media. Things like sadness, hopelessness, even suicidal thoughts. And I'm joined this morning by young people for their thoughts on the link between social media and mental health issues. Asiya Barakzai is 22 and studying political science at Western University. She deleted all social media for two years and joins us from our studio in London, Ontario. And with me in our Toronto studio is Arjun Ram. You may remember him from this moment that went viral on social media.

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ARJUN RAM: Mr. Lowry?

KYLE LOWRY: Yes?

ARJUN RAM: How does it feel to be an icon all over Canada with the kids?

KYLE LOWRY: I'm not a- [laughs] that's a crazy question! I've never been asked that one.

DC: That is Arjun Ram with a great, great question. A crazy question! A crazy, great question for Kyle Lowry of The Toronto Raptors. Arjun is 13 and is a contributor to CBC Kids News. Hello and welcome to both of you.

ARJUN RAM: Oh thank you for having me!

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Thank you for having me!

DC: Asiya, let's start with you. You took a break from social media for two years. What prompted that?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yeah. So I went on this almost two year social media hiatus, namely deleting my Twitter and Instagram accounts. On those accounts I was very, very active and often oversharing. So I had over 500-600 complete strangers following me who essentially had complete access to everything, I would think. Yes. So I wasn't really surprised to see the results of the study either just because I myself went through such a negative experience. Growing up-

DC: What was that? What was the trigger to say "I've had enough"?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yeah. There were, some of the things that you mentioned to during your intro is this constant fear of judgment. This constant checking, the. Highly unrealistic beauty standards and these over-the-top extravagant lifestyles that are put out by beauty gurus and influencers. And then just this constant comparison that we draw within ourselves. Like "oh I'm struggling with X Y and Z and everyone else's lives seem so perfect." So after that I realized, I was like now it's time for me to take a break, and especially like rethink all of these toxic behaviours, and just readjust myself.

DC: You were feeling anxiety in that, I guess, comparison world.

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yeah. There were feelings of anxiety and depression that came about. It can be fairly easy for social media to become a toxic space just because we're constantly inundated with so much content that it becomes overwhelming.

DC: Now what did other people say when you said, "I'm off. I'm out."?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: They were like, "Oh, you're M.I.A. We never see you around! Where have you been?" And it's like, you can still call me or text me or we can go out. But I think it's just removing yourself from the space. People sometimes think... I think that it removes you and your presence completely from their lives. You know, especially long distance friends and things like that.

DC: Arjun, let's just shift the conversation to you because you, you're younger, you have a different experience and a part of your experience is that clip that we just listen to. You are throwing a question to Kyle Lowry at the time that Toronto Raptors seemed everywhere and everything. And that clip went crazy viral, super viral! When did you realize it was getting big?

ARJUN RAM: Well I was... I was still in Scotiabank Arena and I was watching a few players practice and then my mom was like, "Oh my God! The Raptors posted your interview on Instagram!" And I'm like, "No way. No way." She's like, "Yeah!" I'm like, "Man that's crazy, right?" And then their caption was "that's a good question" and I couldn't believe it. To see myself on the Raptors page, you know? It's something that being a Raptor fan you only dream of. And other people to see me in the comments, you know, "Oh great question. He's better than a few other reporters." And like wow! That's amazing to hear those nice comments from other people.

DC: Now tell me about some of the comments... As the hours and days go by after that, there were a lot of comments. Did you read them?

ARJUN RAM: I read a I read a few of them. My my parents told me if you see any negative comments don't take it too seriously because, you know, they're just other people right? Keep doing what you're doing. So I would read a few comments, you know. Some... most of my friends were really supportive so I read most of theirs. You know, they were funny and had view inside jokes about it. Like, "Oh wow, you got to meet the Raptors!" Right? But it was really nice to see people I know even say, you know, "This kid's like," you know... "Great question, he's going places," you know? It was nice of them to see. But at the same time there were a few people who were saying, you know, it's like, "Anybody could go up and ask that question." Right? Or like, "It's not really that big of a deal." And I would just read it and kind of chuckle and just keep going.

DC: Yeah that's a very good approach because, of course, so many people can say so many nasty things on social media. And you're 13. There are certainly boys and girls and young men and women who grow up and face nasty comments, sometimes from strangers, sometimes from people who just stay anonymous, sometimes even from their friends.

ARJUN RAM: Yes.

DC: And when you're... when you're at school, do you guys talk about that kind of thing?

ARJUN RAM: I mean sometimes, yeah, about the comments or negative stuff that people say or do. But I feel like we're at a time now where of course it's it's happening a lot, but schools to try to promote kids to, you know, help all their other friends, right? So that's really what goes on in my class. You know, anything negative that happens to one of my friends, my other friends are always trying to help them, make sure that they're OK, right? And not to listen to those negative comments. So it's a good, great thing that's happening in my school. They're trying to really promote kids to, you know, listen to other kids and talk to them. And to talk to other teachers as well about this issue.

DC: Have you ever had a moment where you felt like that didn't happen? Or were you... when you saw something negative on social media...

ARJUN RAM: Yeah. I mean, there have been a few times where I have seen you know, like, people gossiping or maybe about a certain person. And it's something that I don't like to see, right? Because you know they're hurting somebody when they don't even know that they're hurting them, right? And I can see them going up and talking to them acting as if they're friends when in actuality I know that they're actually texting behind their backs, right? That, you know, about this person. So it's something that is... It's a hurtful thing. It's something that I don't want to see, really.

DC: Asiya, as those two years passed you came back online and you came back into social media. What made you say I can do this now?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yeah. I think there was a lot of development that happened over the two years. And after I came back it was like, OK, I'm going to set some limits. I'm going to stop oversharing certain things, stop following, you know, toxic bloggers and influencers and start following inspirational content, right? Following more memes and, you know, funny stuff and-.

DC: What's toxic for you?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Toxic, for me, is just this constant... Like, we never see the thousands of dollars that are spent in producing these perfect images, right? And especially as young, impressionable girls, you know, that becomes the standard of beauty. And then that's something that we often reflect upon and compare ourselves to. So that's when, you know, when you start doing that excessive comparison and this tracking and trying to ensure perfection, that's where it becomes toxic, right?

DC: Mmhm.

ASIYA BARAKZAI: So it's like yeah, I'm going to stop following Kim Kardashian. Maybe I'll follow a meme page or something instead. So that's what I started to do. And then same with Twitter. I think it was a bit of a different feeling just because on Twitter there was a lot of tragic news and injustice that was happening around the world that it was very hard to disconnect from. And then that became overwhelming as well for me. So then I started to sort of balance it out and, you know, maybe take some breaks. Now I think I maybe spend about 2-3 hours a day on social media instead of the excessive amounts that I used to spend before.

DC: Now some people will hear 2-3 hours and they may think that's excessive. Although it is below the average.

ASIYA BARAKZAI: It is below the average! I mean you'd be surprised. If you check your... I think it's called the "Screen Time App". It tells you how much time you spend. And you'd be surprised how many people spend about like 8 or 9 hours on social media a day. So that is definitely excessive.

DC: How old are you now?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: I am 22.

DC: When you walk down the street and you see a girl, a young woman, a teen, who could have been you. Who's face down, looking at that screen and maybe on Instagram, maybe on one of those, you know, profiles that you call "toxic" where there's thousands of dollars of work that have gone in to make someone look almost superhuman...

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yeah.

DC: What goes through your mind when you see a young woman looking down like that?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: I really want a young woman to know something that I've been trying to tell myself for a very long time. Your beauty is not defined by what you post online. And your beauty is not defined by how many follower followers you have and how many likes you get on those pictures. And I think that's very important for young women. Not just young women, I think everyone is affected by, you know, self-esteem issues and body confidence. And there needs to be more body positive media literacy for young girls, young boys, gender nonconforming youth. And that's very important. So I wish more people knew that and I wish more of, I guess, there were more programs that enforce media literacy like than.

DC: Arjun, what do you think as you hear someone talk like that?

ARJUN RAM: Sorry?

DC: What do you hear... What do you think when you hear a Asiya talk like that about the kinds of things that you and your friends are going to be exposed to as you grow up looking at screen time and how to be healthy about it?

ARJUN RAM: Well like she said, you know, not to... Your beauty is not defined by what you post, right? Not to feel, you know, what the number of likes you get or the number of views you get should matter, really. Right? Because I know I see friends who compare themselves to actors or singers. It's like, "Man, why do they get so many likes and I don't!" Right? And they start posting more and stuff. It's something that you shouldn't do, right? Because it... How many people can start following you that you don't know? Or people that can look at your photos for the wrong reasons. So it's something, you know, just to... Like, stay away from social media at times... Don't overload yourself on Instagram or Snapchat. Instagram is the one social media place that really affects your mental health, right? It's been said. So, you know, be careful what you post and, you know, try and stay away from it as much as you can. Go on Instagram, yes, because like... I love to follow meme stuff to, right? I love to laugh at different funny means, you know. Or see, Instagram really helps in terms of sports. I love sports! When I go out I don't have a TV there. I just go on Instagram. Check what the score is. Or, you know, free agent talk. But as a young kid I always try and keep my distance from posting photos about myself or stuff that is going overboard. So I just tell them to make sure, you know, not to use it as much and to be careful what you post because it doesn't really matter. You're still a nice person and Instagram can ruin that with the people that follow you.

DC: Asiya do you feel healthier today?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yes I do! [laughs]

DC: And give me the coping strategy. What are the things, you talked a bit about it, but what are the things that you do differently today that make you feel mentally better off using social media?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Yeah, so I mean just practicing self care. So the moment I realized, you know, it's getting way too much, I often... You can temporarily just deactivate your account or maybe delete the apps from your phone. That's what I do sometimes.

DC: No fear of missing out or anything like that at that point, or fear of being disconnected from your community?

ASIYA BARAKZAI: [laughs] Yeah yeah, there are those fears, but if it's for a day or two you're not really missing out on much, right? So yeah. And then filling my timelines, you know, with more memes, inspirational pages, body positive bloggers. And then just like... I think at this point in my life I have some more direction where I'm not as easily influenced or overwhelmed by what's happening outside, and I can easily disconnect. So I think that's great. And I really needed those, you know, few years of break to get that experience. So I'm happy for them. Because I don't think social media is at all bad. There are so many positive things, especially for young folks growing up. Like, you have the #METOO movement and the Fridays For Future, Climate Strikes, the #BlueForSudan social media campaign. So there's so much good coming out of it that, you know, as long as you're practicing self care and you're sort of re-analyzing what you're following, what your purpose is online, et cetera then you could do great things with it.

DC: They're good platforms but you have to be cautious of the bad things that can come of it.

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Exactly yeah. Anything can become toxic.

DC: And Arjun, you're nodding across from me.

ARJUN RAM: Yeah. It's dangerous, right? Like for example Instagram, I used to have a private account and now I made it public because, you know, with Kids News I'd like people to see more of what I do, right?

DC: It's building your own profile and for the thing that you do for CBC Kids News.

ARJUN RAM: Yeah. But if any time that I see somebody following me that seems fishy or, you know, somebody that I don't want people to see that's following me, I instantly will delete them. Or, you know, my mom always makes sure that I'm not too much looking at the screen and making sure like, "Arjun, you did well. It's OK." Right? Whatever people say, you did well. So I always try and have that mindset not to make myself feel like, "Oh this person, this other contributor got more likes than me. Man, what? My God. I suck."

DC: But they were talking about a totally different thing and it may be the subject and not about you...

ARJUN RAM: Yeah! I got Instagram maybe like last year, November. So it's something that... I'm not like new to it, but I understand now, you know, what the circumstance is of Instagram, and... to make sure who's following me and who's not.

DC: Do you use it in class?

ARJUN RAM: Instagram? No I don't really use it in class. If ever my teacher says you have free time, I don't really like to go on Instagram during class because, you know, I rather just would play all my friends on a video game, or hang out and do something with my friends because Instagram is mostly just looking at a screen, looking at posts, right? But I really use Instagram mostly for sports related stuff, right? So anytime I want to see, for example, like, on a radio show, right? Stephen A. Smith for example, he's a... he talks about sports all the time. He's heavy on Instagram so I let's to see what he says, right? Or any inspirational person, right? Like for example, Barack Obama. I love to see what he's posting. Anything. So it's really beneficial in those terms, right? They tell you, "Go, the link is in my bio! Go read this." I'm like OK, sure, yeah! I'd love to! Right? If it's somebody that I trust that I can read it.

DC: But you're aware of the things you need to be cautious about.

ARJUN RAM: Yes.

DC: Well thanks so much to both of you for chatting with us today.

ARJUN RAM: Thank you again for having me.

ASIYA BARAKZAI: Thanks for having us!

DC: That is a Asiya Barakzai who is studying political science at Western University and she was in our studio in London, Ontario. And Arjun Ram who is 13 and across the studio from me here. He's also a contributor to CBC Kids News and came into our Toronto studio. You can find more on this study that came out that was published by Canadian researchers. There has been coverage at cbcnews.ca. Some people have been referring to it as "Facebook depression." Of course it's much wider than that. You heard us talking a lot about Instagram and the photos that get posted on Instagram. What impact has social media had on your mental health? You let us know, and you can let us know on social media. You can find us on Twitter and Facebook at The Current CBC.

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DC: CBC News is coming up next. And then when The Current returns, the divine connection between Alberta oil and Christianity. I'm David Common and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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Nuking the oilsands: Why Ernest Manning wanted nuclear weapons to jumpstart Alberta's oil industry

Guests: Darren Dochuk

DC: Hello. I'm David Common and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current.

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DC: Still to come, there's a new 007 but don't call her Bond. We'll talk about the female spy leading the next Bond movie. But first, building an industry on a bucket wheel and a prayer.

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ERNEST MANNING: This is a historic day for the province of Alberta. We are gathered here for this ceremony to officially open this gigantic complex, which for the first time will tap commercially the vast supply of oil which until now has remained locked in the silent depths of these Athabasca tar sands.

DC: Fifty-two years ago the late Alberta Premier, Ernest Manning, stood before a podium and declared the province's oil sands officially open for development. Standing beside him at that ceremony was an American oil tycoon named J. Howard Pew. Mr. Pew was the chair of Sun Oil, and a man who saw his business interests as linked with his strong Christian faith. On that morning their dream of the Great Canadian Oil Sands company was coming true. For them, it seemed like the answer to a prayer. The connection between Christianity and the oil industry has a deep history on both sides of the Canada-U.S. border, and that's where Darren Dochuk comes in. He's from Edmonton and now teaches history at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana. His new book is titled "Anointed With Oil: How Christianity and Crude Made Modern America." Darren Dochuk is in our Vancouver studio. Hello.

DARREN DOCHUK: Hi David. Good to be with you.

DC: Good to chat with you. So... let's start back when Ernest Manning was getting this going. What was his role in developing Alberta's oil industry?

DARREN DOCHUK: Well absolutely crucial, as you can imagine. He was premier in the 1940s, beginning in the early 40s for the next 25 years. In the 1940s the federal government had kind of let slide, really, the only kind of investment in the Athabasca Oil Sands which had really struggled through the 20s and 30s. And he was very anxious to take that project over from the federal government and use it to advance, of course, the economy in addition to the conventional oil sector. He saw oil very much as a way for Alberta to move past its dependency on agriculture. And so he started looking for investors. Of course, he was surrounded by ministers in a team who were doing so as well. And in 1952 someone stepped up to answer his call and that was J. Howard Pew. J. Howard Pew, as you said - CEO of Sun Oil or Sunoco based in Philadelphia - was also head of a vast philanthropic network that would become much more important in the 1950s and 60s. J. Howard Pew had a file in his cabinet marked "Athabasca Oil Sands." He had been... one could say obsessed with this for a number of years because of the enthusiastic responses he was getting from some of his engineers who had looked at this soil. And so he invested 250 million dollars in the Great Canadian Oil Sands Project and that was, at the time in 1952, the largest private investment. And that was in no small part because of his friendship and partnership which would deepen with Ernest Manning in the coming year. So Ernest Manning was crucial to getting this project started up again for Alberta, and going out and recruiting someone who could be a partner with Alberta in this very expensive project. But Ernest Manning saw... in oil sands, the Athabasca Oil Sands, the potential to diversify his province's economy.

DC: And how was it that Premier Manning's Christian beliefs really helped form his relationship to what became of the Alberta oil industry?

DARREN DOCHUK: They were very important. His deeply held evangelical beliefs were essential to how he looked at oil. He saw oil as very much much a gift from God. This was something bestowed on the Alberta people that could ensure their progress in the here and now, and he saw oil as as bringing immediate benefit to God's people, really. His members of the church, members of the Alberta citizenry. His own sense of timing - he was a premillennialist and I could certainly expound on that a bit more - but he believed that time was short. He believed that Christ was turning at any time. And so he saw, again, a certain urgency in his effort to build the oil industry. And then beyond that-.

DC: Why that urgency? I mean what was... Why did it have to happen so quickly?

DARREN DOCHUK: Right. Well as I say in the book, there is this kind of interesting connection between premillennialst eschatology, which again is this theory that Christ is about to return. Premillennialsts who really... That is the dominant kind of "end times" theology in modern American evangelicalism, and Canadian evangelicalism as well. Evangelicals look to Israel, for instance, as the place that Christ will return to which is why they're so anxious to support Israel. We tie that to oil. The cycles of oil. Ernest Manning always believed that oil would be a gift but it would be short lived. There would be a bust following the boost... following the boom, rather. And that kind of... tied into his world view. The sense that time was short. Man, humanity needed to make the most of its resources in this current moment. To also foster the expansion of the Christian church and to spread the gospel. So all of this was was theology, eschatology and peak oil if you always tied in to his worldview.

DC: You write about how Premier Manning had actually signed off on using nuclear weapons in the development of the oil sands. How did that... How would that work?

DARREN DOCHUK: Certainly that is one of the more interesting of strategies that was, you know at one point for a moment at least, considered. 1952, the Great Canadian Oil Sands Project as I said, has begun. But it's gonna take, really, a decade for the Great Canadian Oil Sands for Pew, for the Alberta government to figure out the economics of this. This is always into the current moment, of course, always a highly expensive endeavour. And so the finances needed to be right. One of the challenges in the 50s was to find a better technology for extracting and for refining this oil. And one theory that surfaced was coming out of a California-based company, Richfield, which proposed Project Cauldron, which proposed using the heat and shock energy of an underground nuclear explosion, really essentially, to raise the temperature and essentially liquefy the sands which in turn could make more conventional extraction methods possible. So this was seen as a technological and economic solution to this current challenge.

DC: But it never happened.

DARREN DOCHUK: It never happened. They tested this in Nevada and to rave reviews by all accounts. But the pressure from the public, of course, pressure against nuclear energy on both sides of the border was strong. That public concern with nuclear energy would really force the Alberta government and Manning's team to shelve the idea.

DC: Just to come back to the connection with American evangelism, how was that... How would what was happening United States with evangelicals connected to the rise of the petroleum industry on the other side of the border?

DARREN DOCHUK: Yes well... This is, of course, key to the story I tell and in many ways it's about the rise of the West, the rise of the Southwest. We can go back to the origins of oil in the United States and that is with the 1859 strike in Western Pennsylvania, and through subsequent generations through the late 19th century - the oil industry will expand rapidly. It will also be highly chaotic. The rule of capture in American Petroleum justified, legitimated the pursuit of oil by all individuals, really, on their own terms. And so there was always this drive, this pell-mell rush to drill and to drain oil. And that produces a certain chaotic situation. And not a... Not necessarily a productive one economically. And so as we probably know... John D. Rockefeller Sr. and Standard Oil came into Western Pennsylvania and grew his monopoly, trying to bring order to this chaotic industry. By doing so he forced small oil producers, thousands of them, out of Western Pennsylvania, some out of the business altogether. And they moved to the West where around the turn of the century in California and Texas there are a number of huge strikes, one at Beaumont, Texas in 1901 that is going to shift the epicentre of Global Petroleum, to the Southwest. In subsequent generations in, what we're going to see is the second sector of oil. Independent oilmen, many of whom are devoutly evangelical, are going to build up their industry, compete with Standard and Rockefeller's, and do so not simply in the petroleum industry but in the church itself. Rockefeller is going to apply in some ways his own kind of monopolistic ways to Protestantism. His son is going to do the same through philanthropy. And through the 20th century try to liberalize Protestantism, make it more modern. And in the eyes of evangelical oilmen in the Southwest, they believe he is secularising it. So going forward they are going to become very devout evangelicals, very intent in rolling back the Rockefeller juggernaut, both in the pews and pulpits of the American church and in the oil industry itself.

DC: So there's a division within the oil industry itself as this is going on?

DARREN DOCHUK: For sure. And that's not necessarily as evident elsewhere, but the American petroleum industry is unique for that reason. We've got large major oil companies, especially in the 20th century, coming out of the standard juggernaut, really. And then we've got the proliferation of smaller producers, independents, who to this day remain very powerful economically and politically in the Southwest. And that is, again as I say, a situation I think quite unique to the U.S. because of its mineral laws, and again this ability for individuals to act as their own kind of free agents in this business.

DC: And this... You know, you've taken us back 200 years, or almost 200 years. But as you look at... If we catch up to say the 1970s and 80s in the time of the Cold War and the fear of the spread of communism, you've written about how, in a way, Christian evangelical pastors become fused to big oil money.

DARREN DOCHUK: For sure. In indelible ways. Ways that are going to permanently alter the Church. World War II is a pivot for evangelical Protestantism, not just in the United States but in Canada, and Ernest Manning is very much part of that story. One of the transitions that happens is kind of a shift in culture and attitude within conservative Protestantism represented by evangelicals. In the 1920s and 30s, evangelicals proudly wear the label "fundamentalist". William "Bible Bill" Aberhart - who precedes Ernest Manning as Premier of Alberta in the 30s, Head of Social Credit Movement - is very much a fundamentalist. And what do I mean by that? They saw themselves as fighting culture. They saw themselves as fighting the liberalisation and secularization. But there are highly sectarian and chose to withdraw from the world. After World War II emerged as a new movement of new evangelicalism represented by Billy Graham, represented by Ernest Manning, those who are more temperate in their beliefs and practices and who want to make evangelicalism win over American and Canadian culture, not stay clear of it or withdraw from it. So in that effort through the 40s and 50s and 60s they're looking to build vast ministries that can win people to Christ, that can win America back to its Christian roots. Billy Graham is perhaps the most famous of them. And it's at this juncture where oil money, the oil industry, the independent oil sector, especially in the Southwest and the West, people or companies such as Sunoco and J. Howard Pew are going to become crucial bank rollers to evangelicalism through the 20th century. And along with that too, the type of evangelical conservative politics that are going to emerge throughout the late period of... late part of the 20th century.

DC: Are you talking about the more extreme right-wing politics?

DARREN DOCHUK: Well again, you know, it's worth distinguishing. Certainly in terms of the evangelical church itself, a vast, kind of, religious movement sprawling in the post-World War II period at its essence is,, again this effort to evangelize the world. For Christ to save it by saving individual souls. And that enterprise is going to lean on oil money. So that's something perhaps slightly apolitical, although it's going to be very easily politicized and weaponized by, as you suggest, a more kind of radically conservative political movement, the "religious right". And in the 1970s and 1980s we're going to see the religious right rise, really, to power. Ronald Reagan is going to be the first kind of indication of that. And, as I argue in the book and elsewhere "why is that?" It's not simply because Reagan seised on the social values or the conservative-religious values of the evangelical right, but he also noted and sensed the importance of the freedom that they espouse to drill on domestic soil without a heavily regulatory government. And so he wanted to free up the Western lands for them. So energy, environmental policy and social policies all came together in the Reagan election of 1980. And that really, again, would be just the first of many moments to come of this new kind of oil fuelled religious right political mobilization.

DC: You know as you lay out the connections between money from big oil - and particularly from Texas-based Big Oil and the Church, the Evangelical church - I also can't help but think that there are also churches that have played a role in opposing the oil industry.

DARREN DOCHUK: Very much. And again, the dramatic tension if you will... I'm hoping it's somewhat dramatic, but the tension in the book is between these two sectors of oil. And again, that plays out in terms of regulation of the oil fields. It plays out in the tension between domestic production and global production. Major oil companies go international. And the independent oil focuses on domestic reserves. So that that really is at the heart of the story. But there is a third wave that I tracked throughout and that is those individuals and institutions who, with their own kind of theology in hand, a theology of Earth Care, a theology of anti-monopolism... rallied their communities, rallied their churches and rallied the nation itself against, certainly, the excesses of the oil industry. And so that story runs throughout the 20th century to the present day where we see you know, of course, more famous environmentalists like Bill McKibben kind of wearing their Sunday school Methodism on their sleeve as they protest the Keystone pipeline and protest the oil dependency of American and Canadian society.

DC: You actually found a surprising link between Ernest Manning's early American evangelical support for developing the Canadian Oil Sands, and then the resistance to it now.

DARREN DOCHUK: For sure. I think the irony you're pointing to involves the Pews as well. And so J. Howard Pew, as we've already discussed, is absolutely fundamental to the rise of the Great Canadian Oil Sands, the Athabasca Oil Sands development at large. By the 19th... early 1990s, the trust, the foundation that he establishes in the late 1940s, in his mind to channel his profits from oil into conservative Christian causes, Billy Graham being the most important benefactor of that. By the early 1990s the trust that he founds undergoes a political shift. It shifts away from kind of free market economics to concern for the environment and other issues related to the environment, conservation and energy. And so the irony today is that among those protesting the oil sands, the very creation of J. Howard Pew is the Pew Trust. And the Pew Trust, is in this sense, locking arms with the Rockefellers. The Rockefeller Brothers Fund also, of course, being known to be supportive of environmental movement politics in Alberta. So these two enemies at one point throughout much of the 20th century are in some ways now have come together to work in tandem.

DC: And if we continue thinking about the present day, is there in your mind still the same degree or depth of connection between particularly American evangelism and the Canadian Oil Sands?

DARREN DOCHUK: Between the oil sands... I don't think so. But I do think that the intensity of this bond of evangelical religion and independent oil is as strong today as ever, and we are seeing that evidence right now, really, in the politics of Donald Trump. Donald Trump has kind of mastered Reagan's America First energy policy and platform and is speaking... Having his vice president speak throughout the Southwest. Mike Pence was just in West Texas in late April proclaiming faith freedom and natural resources as really the three pillars of American exceptionalism and of American strength. So again, faith very much threaded into that formula for political interests in the hope of securing this vote, securing this constituency, securing this money for 2020. So that is clearly evident in the United States in an American religion and politics. And to some degree I think playing out in current Alberta politics as well where we're seeing, once again, a very animated, morally charged fight over pipelines in The Sands and oil itself.

DC: And over climate change.

DARREN DOCHUK: Right. And over climate change, for sure. And again, that is something that, you know, many within this oil-dependent even evangelical subculture are tending to resist. I will not paint that in conspiratorial terms but I think the resistance to that science has a long history within evangelicalism, coming out of some of the colleges some of the institutions that are supported by oil, supported by evangelicals where there really is kind of an alternative science now of of climate change or climate change denial. So yes.

DC: Alternative science is not necessarily connected to fact.

DARREN DOCHUK: Well correct. Right. Of course.

DC: What about the future of evangelism in the oil industry? Is there a future?

DARREN DOCHUK: Well I think certainly, as I alluded to... As long as, at least within the United States, but also we can think of Alberta, as long as politicians who are supported by the conservative right comprised certainly in the U.S. of a very powerful evangelical base, but also Catholic. As long as politicians are going to be elected to these offices, whether it's the White House or at the state level, I think, you know, again this relationship will continue to be strong going forward. I guess one of the takeaways of my book, I'm hoping, is just to show how deeply ingrained, kind of, oil - especially on the oil patches of North America - how deeply ingrained oil is in the DNA of those regions. And it extends not simply to work in jobs, which of course are always at the forefront of these debates and these struggles, political struggles, but also very much an imprint on the way Americans and Canadians in the oil patch play and worship. And that's that's the point of this. This is, you know... Oil is an imprint, I say, on the soul of America. It's the imprint on the soul of Alberta as well. And so to kind of, for them to... Those residents, those citizens of those oil patches to extract themselves from that industry and from the dependency on that is, I think, going to be a long time coming.

DC: Darren thanks very much for chatting with us.

DARREN DOCHUK: Thanks David. My pleasure.

DC: Darren Dochuk is the author of "Anointed With Oil: How Christianity and Crude Made Modern America". He was in our Vancouver studio. Coming up in our next half hour we'll look at the news that the next Bond movie will feature a female 007. It's no secret the franchise hasn't always presented women positively. And we'll ask whether a female agent can redeem that history. First though, let's hear from one of the many strong women who've recorded a Bond theme song over the years. From 1996, this is Tina Turner and "Golden Eye".

[Music: Golden Eye by Tina Turner]

DC: Tina Turner with "Golden Eye". And we're going to be talking about the next 007, a woman, coming right up. I'm David Common, and this is the Summer Edition of The Current.

[Music: Golden Eye by Tina Turner]

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Female James Bond and Uncover: Escaping NXIVM – Episode 8

Guest: Eliana Dockterman

DC: Hello! I'm David Common and you're listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. Coming up, the chilling conclusion to the podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. But first.

[Music: James Bond Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES BOND: Yes my name is Bond. James Bond. I am looking for Dr. Goodhead.

DR. HOLLY GOODHEAD: He just found her.

JAMES BOND: A woman.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIE: Is there something I can do for you?

JAMES BOND: As a matter of fact there is. There's something I'd like you to get off your chest.

[Sound: woman gasping]

SOUNDCLIP

JAMES BOND: I think you're a wonderful Bibi, but... I don't think your Uncle Aris would approve.

BIBI DAHL: He thinks I'm still a virgin.

JAMES BOND: You get your clothes on. I'll buy you an ice cream.

[Music: James Bond Theme]

DC: Wow... Some things don't age super well. That is just a sampling of the sexist, sometimes violent and often shameful interactions James Bond has had with women over the years. But it seems that the world's most famous spy is about to be yanked into the 21st century. You may have heard that the next instalment of the 57-year-old franchise, Bond 25, will feature a black woman as the new 007. British actor Lashana Lynch has been tipped for that role and that has Bond fans, culture watchers and feminists buzzing, as well as bracing for the backlash. Eliana Dockterman is a culture writer for Time Magazine. We've reached her in New York City. Hi Eliana!

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Hi! Thanks for having me.

DC: Not at all. What went through your mind when you heard about this news?

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Well I am a big Bond fan. I have been watching since I was a child. I revisited some of the movies in the past few years and been sort of horror struck by what I've seen. I think I kind of blocked out the sexist interactions that Bond has had with just about every woman he's spoken to, especially in the early films. And so I was pretty excited to hear that maybe this franchise is finally getting an update.

DC: What are the things that could now go right and the things that could go wrong by getting Lashana Lynch, who's probably best known for Captain Marvel at this point. What could the writers get wrong?

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: So I think one great sign that we have seen with this news is that apparently the script, and I haven't seen the film, these are just rumours and reports coming out about the scripts, but apparently the script doesn't have Lashana's Lynch's character, Nomi, becoming Bond or replacing Bond. She's taking on the 007 name. And Daniel Craig as James Bond has to reckon with this strong black woman getting his former title and deal with his biases surrounding that. And apparently Nomi, this character, calls him out on a lot of his less progressive ways. So I think that that is a smart move to really reckon with the history of this character because as we heard in that clip, he is a misogynist. That is inherent to his character and to just ignore that would be silly. On the other hand, I think it would be really tiresome and not very enjoyable for anyone if she spent the entire film kind of, you know, telling Bond all the ways that he's acting incorrectly and ask acting as the kind of schoolmarm figure. We want her to have her own character as well.

DC: What do you that the argument is to actually keep the franchise going? "I like you, love the films," but then cringe when I hear the tape that we just played. I mean, it just seems so wildly out of date. What's the argument for keeping Bond going in some form rather than saying it's a relic of the past?

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Well I think cynically the producers would say it is IP and IP is very popular right now.

DC: Yeah, there's money to made here. Yeah.

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Right. If you have a character that people recognize and people will go to see a movie about them, then you don't throw away that character. I think on a more fundamental level there is an opportunity here to really reckon with our past cinematic history. Bond is far from the only figure in movies who is a misogynist and just about every spy movie that's been made since the 1960s owes something to Bond. He's such a popular figure, a gigantic figure that boys aspirationally look up to. I think to reckon with that and to adjust that would be a huge signal for the culture. That boys and men who otherwise would think to aspire to be this figure should kind of reconsider what an aspirational male figure in our culture should be.

DC: So we were talking in the studio about this and recalling black Stormtrooper, recalling the horrible... the garbage that Leslie Jones had to put up with in the reboot of Ghostbusters where all the Ghostbusters were women. When you cast a strong black woman in a role like 007, what are we seeing and what are we likely to see in terms of the reaction?

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: So on the one hand I've seen a lot of positive reaction on Twitter. I think that this was a franchise that needed an update for a long time and a lot of fans of the franchise have conflicted feelings about it. So I think that there has been some positive reaction. On the other hand, as you were saying, in any of these circumstances there is likely to be... she's going to have to experience harassment on social media. That's just the way of the world right now. I can say that I wrote an article about how the movie could get this change over, this handoff of the 007 title, right? And I have received plenty of screeds in my inbox in the last few days. I get a lot of those when I write about women and culture, but more than normal, so.

DC: Can you give me an example?

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: I think that people just say that this will ruin the franchise, and this PC stuff has gone too far and then far more mean and nasty things I should not say on the radio.

DC: Yeah. But that... but essentially the 007 couldn't be played by anyone other than a white guy?

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Yes that is essentially the thrust of it, that a woman is stealing a man's job.

DC: Well with any luck this film will do really well and they'll be proven wrong.

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Yeah. I think that the money speaks for itself. When you look at something like Captain Marvel, which there is an entire campaign to try to tank that film from a small but vocal number of trolls on the Internet, and the money speaks for itself. It's one of the highest performing movies of the year. So hopefully if this film does very well. It won't particularly matter to the franchise or to the producers.

DC: Right. Eliana we'll have to leave it there but thanks very much.

ELIANA DOCKTERMAN: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

DC: Eliana Dockterman is a culture writer for Time Magazine and she's in New York City.

[Music: James Bond Theme]

DC: You are listening to the Summer Edition of The Current. I'm David Common. Over the past week and a half we've been showcasing Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. The CBC podcast was produced by two former colleagues on The Current: Kathleen Goldhar, and Josh Block who also acts as the host. Today, to conclude they zero in on another member of NXIVM in another dark side of the group. And a warning, this episode includes descriptions of graphic violence and so it is not suitable for all listeners.

SOUNDCLIP

JENNIFER KOBELT: So Brandon starts hooking up and I'm like, "I'm not worried." It was very obvious that this was not educational forum material. This was a film. And it opened on a dark street, and I just heard someone screaming at someone. Bite the curb! Bite the curb!" And someone screaming, "Daddy no!" And this little boy standing there in the dark. And then I heard some sirens and I'm just like, "What the hell is going on?"

JOSH BLOCK: Jennifer Kobelt is a former member of NXIVM who participated in what has come to be known as the "Fright Studies". It's a part of NXIVM that has received less attention than the secret women's group, DOS, and the branding. In this bonus episode I want to tell you more about Jenn.

[Music]

JOSH BLOCK: I first interviewed Jen as I was investigating Sarah Edmondson's story. But Jenn's story is harrowing in its own right, including being involved in this strange experiment that sounds like something out of A Clockwork Orange. Jenn was Sarah's assistant.

JENNIFER KOBELT: She was the worst boss ever had.

JOSH BLOCK: She joined NXIVM after attending one of Sarah's pitch sessions. That one where Sarah told everyone to raise their hands as high as they could, and then admonish them for not standing on their chairs.

JENNIFER KOBELT: I remember her saying, "We have something that gets to the root cause! And instead of taking years and years of therapy it takes 45 minutes." And I think my jaw probably dropped open. If you really think that this can do what you're saying it's going to do then yes I'll give you all my savings.

JOSH BLOCK: There are some parallels between Jenn and Sarah's story. They were both struggling actors in Vancouver who signed up for self-help courses and ended up getting involved in harmful activities in NXIVM. Jenn says when she attended that pitch session she was desperate for help. She had just left what she describes as an abusive relationship. My producer Kathleen sat down with Jenn for a detailed interview.

JENNIFER KOBELT: He woke me up at like 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning one night and told me he couldn't sleep because all he could think about was, you know, how I didn't deserve him. And he went on to berate me for like an hour and I just... I just eventually just was a crying puddle. I was so sad. I felt such a horrible piece of trash.

JOSH BLOCK: Like Sarah, she quickly immersed herself in NXIVM and she found great comfort in it.

JENNIFER KOBELT: It becomes every part of my life, you know. At first, as a student I was there Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon. So gave up my office job. Started working as Sarah's personal assistant. Meanwhile, I was becoming a coach and, you know, like, a lead sister and Jness. I didn't really have time to see anybody outside of my work and my ESP community.

JOSH BLOCK: Jenn took a wide range of courses, including a special program run by the men's group in NXIVM, Society of Protectors. Jenn says it was a week of humiliation.

JENNIFER KOBELT: They they tried they tried to make it seem like this is the thing. This is how boys are, like... You know, we're giving women an experience of what it's like to be a man in a man's world and the kind of struggle that men have and why men are unemotional and stuff. The most humiliating thing to me, the most degrading thing was the men secretly took pictures of the women throughout the first few days any time that, you know, maybe their underwear was showing at the back of their pants. Or maybe, like, they would go over your head and take a picture down your shirts you can see your cleavage. And they took all these pictures and then they built a slideshow. And they said, you know, "Not all of you are from here but we've got a lot of cow pastures around here. We wanted to show you some of the best in show." And they play this slideshow, and it's literally pictures of cows. You know, "There's a cow there's, a cow, oh there's Desire's boobs! There's another cow. Oh look, Sahaja's thong creeping out the back of her pants!" And they were just calling us cows.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: To what end? What...

JENNIFER KOBELT: I think they just wanted us to walk out of there revering men and feeling like we were worthless. We're lacking all of the things that men respect most and here we are flaunting our bodies because we think that will get us what we want, when really it just makes men disrespect us more.

KATHLEEN GOLDHAR: And did you believe that at the time?

JENNIFER KOBELT: Fully and completely.

JOSH BLOCK: Jenn says during her time in NXIVM she had other even more intense and negative experiences all in the name of science. According to charges filed by the New York State Board of Professional Medical Conduct, Dr. Brandon Porter, a member of NXIVM, directed a number of problematic behavioural studies. It appears the group wanted to understand the effects of Keith's teachings on the brain.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK ELLIOT: My name is Mark Elliott and I lived with Tourette's syndrome for about 20 years of my life...

JOSH BLOCK: And they claim, in fact, to have discovered a way to treat Tourette's syndrome. They posted testimonials online like this one by Mark Elliott.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK ELLIOT: But as soon as I experienced these tools I found that I was able to change something and now I live a life without Tourette's. I have never seen anything in my life as effective as these tools.

JOSH BLOCK: Jenn says it was common to see students with sensors attached to their heads during ESP classes so Dr. Porter could monitor brain activity while people were listening to Keith's lectures. She says it wasn't weird. It fit with the scientific approach that NXIVM claimed to be taking. Jenn says on two occasions she took part.

JENNIFER KOBELT: And he would tell me, "Hey when you think you've had like some new awareness, you know, put up one finger so that I can see what that looks like on your brainwaves. And then if you think you have what we called an integration," which is like a big awareness, it's sort of like a perceptual shift, "put up two fingers" or something like that.

JOSH BLOCK: So in 2016 when Jen was in Albany taking courses, she didn't find it strange when her roommate said, "Oh hey we're doing a study and I was asked to get participants together. Would you do it?" And I was like, "OK yeah." No idea what it is. Partially I didn't ask because it's like, if you ask too many questions about things then, again, they use it against you. And they're like well, "Why are you so controlling? Why do you need to know? Like do you want to participate in helping us further our knowledge? If the answer is yes then you should be willing to do anything. I shouldn't have to give you all the details." So I said yes. And then couple days passed and then she came home one night, just a total mess. Like a zombie. And I was like, "Are you OK honey? What's going on?" And she's like... just crying. And she's like, [sniffle] "Yeah, yeah. It was just so intense, I just... The study was so intense. I just... feel really bad, I don't feel good. I just-" At first I'm just focussed on her but then I was like, "Wait hold on, I'm- I'm signed up to do this study! If it's made you like this then I don't think I want to do it!" And she was like... immediately it's like something switched. She was like, "Well no. No no no no it's not you, it's it's me. I it just brought up my stuff. Like- like... You need to do it. Please do it! Like, you said you'd do it and I was supposed to get 100 participants. And if you don't do it then we don't have that number and..." You know like, I was just, like, confused by what could have been so intense. But also trusted her word. Like this is still another best friend of mine. I don't imagine for a moment that she would steer me wrong.

JOSH BLOCK: Just a warning this episode includes descriptions of graphic violence. So a few days later Dr. Porter picked her up in his car.

JENNIFER KOBELT: Brandon is a medical doctor, and even beyond that I felt like he was a really good friend. I had spent time with his family. I knew his kids, I knew his wife. This is a man who I absolutely trusted.

JOSH BLOCK: They drove to Apropos, that old Italian restaurant where NXIVM used to run classes.

JENNIFER KOBELT: So yeah we drive in. Nobody's really around. He's like, "Oh hey, we'll be set up here." And I see this brain cap attached to a bunch of, like, wires that attached to a machine. And I'm like, "Oh I know this thing. I've worn it before. Yeah. Cool." So Brandon starts hooking me up and I'm like, "I'm not worried." As soon as he pressed play it was very obvious that this was not educational forum material this was a film. And it opened on a dark street, and I just heard someone screaming at someone. "Bite the curb! Bite the curb!".

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: [yelling] Put it on the curb right now!

[Sound: gunshots]

JENNIFER KOBELT: And someone screaming, "Daddy no!" And this little boy, standing there in the dark. And then I heard some sirens and I'm just like, "What the hell is going on?"

JOSH BLOCK: The New York Board of Professional Medical Conduct describes the scene of a male African-American being viciously stomped by a Nazi. It's from the movie American History X.

JENNIFER KOBELT: And eventually the man does bite the curb, and the man who is screaming stomps on the back of the man's head and he dies instantly. Now, I mean, I know it's just film but it was very unexpected. And I just burst out crying and was like, "What is- what is- what is- why- what is this?" You know, he stops the clip and I just cried, and he's like... "What's going on for you? Like, how was that?" And I was like, "That was horrific. That was horrific!" So I stopped crying eventually and he puts on the next clip.

[Music: catchy pop music playing from an old sound system]

JENNIFER KOBELT: And again it's like, OK this is a film. It's a woman. There's a few women in a bar, but it's mostly guys. It's kind of like a dingy, dirty bar. And then this, you know, young, sexy woman enters with a man and it's Jodie Foster.

JOSH BLOCK: Dr. Porter was showing Jenn a controversial scene of a brutal gang rape from the 1988 movie "The Accused."

JENNIFER KOBELT: I'm trying to cover my eyes. Close them as tight as I can. Cover my ears. I don't want to hear this... this woman being gang raped. And yeah eventually he stops it and I just... I'm just like shaking and crying and like rocking back and forth and just like similar response, you know? You know, "What's going on for you, Jenn?" And then at some point he says, "OK this is the last clip. You know, I'm a little nervous to show this to you because you've had some really intense reactions. More so than anybody else that I've had here, so I'm... I'm worried to show this to you." And I just looked up at him [and] was just like, "Then do it." And so he did. He pressed play. And immediately I was like, "Oh we're done with movies." This isn't a movie. This is very obviously like real footage.

[Music: ominous instrumental]

JENNIFER KOBELT: It was a bunch of men with like... a lot of them had bandanas on their mouths holding guns. In like some kind of a cornfield or something. And four women on their knees, most of them with their breasts exposed. The man starts speaking in Spanish and I can't understand what he's saying. I have no idea what's going on. I just see these four women on their knees. I think their arms are behind their backs. They're just [sigh]. And eventually he stops talking. And... I think he gave a signal or something, and the men standing behind the women... Each of the woman had a man grab her hair, pull her head back, and pull it a machete and chop her head off. And I... was... just- just- just in shock. Just- just...It's not something you forget. And it's... It's haunting. And I just remember it was like sort of a dissociative moment. It was it was horrific. I think I had tears and snot dripping down my face but I... Mostly I was just in shock. I just sat there. And again. after while Brandon said, "You know, what's going on for you?" Or whatever he said. And then he said, "Well, you know, anything that you've had like a big reaction to tonight, those are the kinds of things that you could work on. You know, you could go and get an exploration of meaning on that and resolve that reaction."

JOSH BLOCK: An exploration of meaning is that process and NXIVM where students dig into their psyche to get at the root cause of an emotional reaction.

JENNIFER KOBELT: And even in that moment I remember sitting there and being like... I don't know if this is something I want to resolve. I don't know that I ever want to be okay with gang rape or, you know, murder by machete. And then another voice came in my head and said, "Jenn you're fighting. Stop fighting. You need to just take the feedback. Strong women take the feedback. Just take the feedback. If you're fighting it it's probably true." So I just said OK. And he, you know, untangled me from all of the cable stuff and drove me back. Went and had a shower to get all the goopy stuff out of my hair from the brainwave cap, and [sniffles] texted my coach and said, "Hey I really need an explanation of meaning. I really need one."

JOSH BLOCK: Jenn says she's not sure what exactly the point of these experiments was but a patent filed by Keith Raniere in 2007 could offer a clue. It describes the Fright Studies, almost exactly as Jenn explained them. The patent is titled "Determination of Whether a Luciferian Can Be Rehabilitated". A Luciferian in NXIVM is someone who takes pleasure in other people's pain. It's not clear to me how this experiment would rehabilitate such a person. It's also not clear why Jenn was chosen to participate. After it was over she says she tried to forget about the experiment. Though she says she was haunted by those violent scenes that she was made to watch. It wasn't until she left NXIVM a year later when she learned about DOS and the branding from Sarah Edmondson that she really took stock of what had happened to her. Jenn filed a complaint against Dr. Porter with the New York Department of Health in August of 2017. Since leaving NXIVM, Jenn's tried to move on. She's engaged and she runs a business with her fiancee who is also a former member. But she says she still struggles with what she learned in NXIVM. The teachings that kept her sitting in that chair while watching those horrific images that led her to believe that it was not only good for her but for all of humanity.

JENNIFER KOBELT: I'm always second guessing myself now. You know, I don't feel like I have a solid grasp of what is me and true. I don't know. I wish... I wish I could... I wish I had a wonderful success story that could just be like, "Oh yeah everything's peaches and rainbows now" but I don't. It's still a lot of deprogramming. Work is left to do.

JOSH BLOCK: When the FBI started its investigation into NXIVM after Sarah came forward with their story, another investigation, this one by the New York Department of Health, began looking into the research Dr. Porter was doing. Dr. Porter is now facing numerous charges by the New York State Oversight Board including moral unfitness, gross negligence and gross incompetence. The charges are linked to several studies overseen by Dr. Porter and alleged 16 violations of state and federal law as well as violations of medical guidelines. We wanted to know how many people participated in this study. A spokesperson with the State Oversight Board said that information is not public. We do know that a number of other participants will be testifying against Dr. Porter this fall. Dr. Porter is defending himself against these allegations. His medical licence is still active but he's resigned from his practice at St. Peter's Hospital in Albany. We tried several times to contact Dr. Porter and his lawyer but we have not received a response.

[Music]

DC: That was the final instalment of the CBC investigative podcast Uncover: Escaping NXIVM. If you missed an episode and you'd like to catch up, you can find the whole story at cbc.ca/podcasting or wherever you get your podcasts. And that is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio One for Q. Tom Power is speaking today with Jesse Eisenberg, that's the actor who played Mark Zuckerberg in "The Social Network". His new movie is called "The Art of Self-Defence." Got a lot more in common with "Fight Club" than Facebook. That's coming up next on Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

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July 17, 2019 episode transcript

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