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The AIH Transcript for July 15 2019

Hosts: Robyn Bresnahan and Karen Gordon

Prologue

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Hello I'm Robyn Bresnahan, sitting in for Carol Off.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

RB: The ins and the outs. After the U.S. president suggests that some of his Democratic critics should "go back" where they came from -- a retired senator says it's past time for more of his fellow Republicans to reconsider their support for Donald Trump.

KG: Six deaths too many. A spokesperson for the Calgary Humane Society says he's all for an end to chuck-wagon races at the Calgary Stampede. But despite more horses dying his organization's hands are tied.

RB: A case of mistaken identities. They called him the 'Al Capone of the desert' -- but now he's been acquitted thanks to the work of people including our guest who investigated whether the Eritrean man was really a people smuggler.

KG: And a case of taken identities. MPs gather for an emergency meeting in Ottawa where they ask a top Desjardins banker how a rogue employee was allowed to make off with the personal data of millions of customers.

RB: Mold stomping grounds. A curious growth inside the International Space Station sends researchers on a radiation riddled path that has people speculating about fungus from outer space.

KG: And park that thought. Japanese car rental companies get worried about customers who don't drive their vehicles anywhere at all -- but it turns out their reasons aren't nearly as sexy as some would think. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that's ready to get this show on the road.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Jeff Flake calls Trump's tweets about congresswomen 'vile' — but he won't call them racist

Trump Comments: Jeff Flake

Guest: Jeff Flake

KG: The tweets have been called 'racist.' But Donald Trump isn't backing down. Over the weekend the U.S. President told Democratic congresswomen to -- quote -- "go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came." He doubled down on those comments during an event at the White House today. He appears to be referring to Congresswomen Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, and Rashida Tlaib -- all women of colour. They held a press conference this afternoon. Here's some of what Representative Ilhan Omar said.

SOUNDCLIP

IIHAN OMAR: This is a president who has openly violated the very value our country aspires to uphold: equality under the law, religious liberty, equal protection, and protection from persecution. And to distract from that -- he's launching a blatantly racist attack on four duly-elected members of the United States of House of Representatives -- all of whom are women of colour. This is the agenda of white nationalist. Whether it is happening in chat rooms or it's happening on national TV -- and now it's reached the White House garden. He would love nothing more than to divide our country based on race, religion, gender, orientation, or immigration status. Because this is the only way he knows he can prevent the solidarity of us working together across all of our differences.

KG: Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar in Washington today. Republicans are being called out for not condemning President Trump's comments. Jeff Flake is urging members of his own party to stand up. He was a Republican U.S. senator until earlier this year. We reached him in Provo, Utah.

RB: Mr. Flake how would you characterize the president's comments telling these four congresswomen to 'go back' from where they came from?

JEFF FLAKE: It's offensive and vile. You know that phrase 'go back where you came from' -- you know it is just an awful phrase -- and to be said about four Americans who are members of Congress -- three of whom were born in the United State -- is just wrong.

RB: Offensive and vile. What about racist?

JF: No -- I'll let others use that term. I don't think it's particularly useful to go into that. Certainly an inappropriate thing to say for anyone let alone the President of the United States.

RB: Well why wouldn't you say it's racist?

JF: Because it's a loaded term that means different things to different people, and I just feel it's better not to use it.

RB: But these women are all women of colour. I mean he wouldn't be saying this -- do you think that if they were white women?

JF: You know he seems to single out those who are of colour for comments like this -- yes. But I'll let others use that term.

RB: What does it tell you that there's been radio silence from most Republicans in Congress on these comments?

JF: Many are up for re-election and don't want to get on the wrong side of the president. The leadership doesn't want to speak out because then that will cause you know reporters to talk to those who are in vulnerable races -- and the leadership I'm sure would like to see it just pass over. Believe me I understand the inclination to just you know be so tired of responding to the president's comments. And I usually give my colleagues a pass, but there are times when the president says something so offensive that it harkens back to perhaps when he referred to the press as the enemy of the people. I think there was far too little backlash there that he continued to use it -- and then it becomes normalized and it's kind of led to for lack of a better term the Trumpification of politics here. And that's a dangerous place to be.

RB: Have you looked at the response to your tweet where you say that Republican elected officials can't be expected to respond to every comment by the president but there are times when the president's comments are so vile and offensive that it's incumbent on Republicans to respond and condemn and this is one of those times -- have you looked at the response to that tweet?

JF: No I haven't.

RB: Why not?

JF: Well I just have other things to do. But I felt it was important to say that. But I can guess the response: there will be some who say 'Hey you should come out. That's weak sauce. You ought to call him a racist.' Or 'you ought to go further' or 'you ought to call for impeachment.' But my issue is -- and I've never been a supporter of Donald Trump, I didn't support him in the last election, I couldn't support him in this one, and I couldn't even campaign with him for my own re-election -- but I'm not with those who say we ought to somehow disqualify him. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Jimmy Carter. But to refer to this president as illegitimate in a way that would try to disqualify him is not what we ought to be doing. Part of the reluctance some of my colleagues have in responding I'm sure is they see some of the comments of these four women that the president has criticized. And they have been in many times crude and vulgar in their calling for the president to be impeached or removed. And so Republicans will simply say 'hey you know they get what they have coming.' I don't feel that way. Although I tweeted at one point when one of the four used language that was crude -- because I had been very critical of the president -- I said that the fact that the president speaks his way should not give others license to do the same. I did see the response to that and it was about 30,000 comments -- most of which the general theme was if the president speaks this way then so must we. And that's the Trumpification of politics that we can't abide and we have to get away from. So the antidote to that is to make sure the president is defeated next year.

RB: Well that's exactly what I was getting at by looking at some of the responses to your tweets Mr. Flake. A lot of people say actually it was weak sauce and that you should have called him out. And you should be asking for stronger measures instead of just using words like vile and condemn. So what would you say to those people who feel that way?

JF: The remedy here is to make sure he is defeated in the next election. I don't think it does any good and probably plays in the president's favour to talk about impeachment and trying to disqualify him.

RB: How much of this name calling and tweeting is just an attempt to turn our attention from what's happening in detention centres for migrants at the border?

JF: I don't know. I mean often I think the president does use some tweet -- something to draw attention. I'm not sure if this one was meant to do that. But it could well be. It's not just that -- there are other things going on that I think he probably tries to draw attention from.

RB: What do you think is happening to your Republican Party?

JF: I'm very concerned about where we are as a party. I think millennials and suburban women in particular have been walking away from the party for a while because of I think the Republican Party's failure to address and to even acknowledge climate change -- and just the language which is being used is really a turnoff to suburban women. And I think they've been walking away from the party for a while now -- they're in a dead sprint. And I think the midterms (that) we just went through should have been a big wakeup call -- and they've been -- for Republicans.

RB: Do you think Mr. Trump is going to get a second term?

JF: No I don't. I feel more confident all the time that more Americans will turn away from this. I hope that he doesn't.

RB: Mr. Flake thank you very much for your time today.

JF: Thank you.

KG: Jeff Flake represented Arizona in the U.S. Senate until earlier this year. He spoke to us from Provo, Utah.

[Music]

Stampede Folo

Guest: Phil Fulton

KG: Three more horses died at the Calgary Stampede's chuck-wagon races this weekend. That makes six this year. It's a number that has reignited the debate over the Stampede in general and its chuck-wagon races in particular. The races involve teams of thoroughbreds harness to wagons and driven hurtling around a track. And nearly every year, horses die. Phil Fulton is with the Calgary Humane Society. We reached him in Calgary.

RB: Mr. Fulton what is the Calgary Humane Society's position after six horses have now died at this year's Stampede?

PHIL FULTON: Our position has not changed. We have always stated publicly that the Calgary Humane Society opposes the use of animals for entertainment in which they are placed at risk of suffering undue stress, pain, injury, or death. We've directly asked the Stampede to stop these high risk rodeo events and chuck-wagon races. And despite the safety measures and improved protocols to better protect the lives of the animals these deaths continue to occur.

RB: So just to clarify you think that the chuck-wagon races should be banned?

PF: Banned is...I'm not sure what to think of the word "ban" because there's implications of signing petitions and protesting. We're an animal welfare organization and I think that needs to be clarified for the public is that as an animal welfare organization our job is to uphold the law and we can't really engage in any advocacy activities that would create a conflict of interest or compromise our ability to effectively enforce animal welfare legislation.

RB: So it sounds like when it comes to calling on the Stampede to end these practices with all due respect it sounds like your organization is a bit of a toothless tiger.

PF: Yeah you're not wrong. The trouble is we can only enforce the laws as they're written. So the law that we enforce is the Alberta Animal Protection Act. And unfortunately as that law is written there are exemptions for what are referred to under the law as 'generally accepted practices.' And so when it comes to the rodeo -- while it doesn't explicitly say rodeos are exempt, rodeos aren't illegal. We don't have any legal authority to simply shut them down.

RB: Well just help us understand that because the executive director of the national advocacy group Animal Justice -- this is a woman called Camille Labchuk -- says, pardon the pun, but that's bull. She says Alberta makes it illegal to inflict unreasonable distress on animals and there are no exceptions for rodeos.

PF: It's not explicitly written into laws -- exceptions for rodeos. But things like farming, fishing, hunting, slaughter those are exempted as well as generally accepted practices. So we have worked with prosecutors and that would constitute rodeos. So unfortunately we do not have any recourse. And if there was something in the law that we felt that we could charge and prosecute we would have done it by now. So no amount of public pressure, no amount of me -- Phil -- saying golly gee I'd really like to prosecute...doesn't matter. If we do not feel that there is grounds for charges and if the Crown prosecutor similarly does not feel that we can successfully prosecute then it would frankly be a waste of time. And if we did try to do that it would be seen as nothing more than grandstanding. And like I said it would go nowhere.

RB: This story comes up almost every year at the Calgary Stampede, and it's often framed in two ways. On the one hand there's the question is chuck-wagon racing a barbaric abuse of animals that should be banned. And on the other hand is it a proud rural tradition that saves horses from the slaughterhouse and provides them a comfortable life. Where do you sit on that spectrum?

PF: The organization -- again, our perspective is that we don't condone it. As far as the assertion that saving an animal from slaughter is an excuse to then put it into a situation where it has a high likelihood of suffering pain, stress, and ultimately death --I don't believe in that argument. There is an intrinsic value in animals and I don't believe in the assertion that just because it was saved theoretically from slaughter that somebody can put it through that level of pain, stress, and ultimately dying.

RB: The Calgary Stampede said that in light of this weekend's events it is committed to -- quote -- "initiating a thorough review process surrounding chuck-wagon safety." What do you think that should look like?

PF: I don't unfortunately have any specific requests at this time. We will as we do every year and meet with the Stampede to discuss what can be done. And you have to remember this is a hundred year event. It's not going anywhere anytime soon. So seeing that they are making a commitment to make more changes, we're always going to be in favour of that. The more that we can make things safer -- if they're not going to end it, we're always going to be in favor of that.

RB: Who has more power? Is it the stampede or is it an organization such as yours? I mean you already acknowledged that you're a bit of a toothless tiger here but I'm just wondering you know in 20 years from now are we going to be hearing the same arguments that this is a rural way of life and that that will always win out?

PF: I'm a born and raised Calgarian. And chuck-wagons aren't a rural way of life. You're not going to go to a farm and see them whipping around on chuck-wagons. And there are literally hundreds of different ways for us to celebrate our Western heritage -- which I'm very proud of -- that do not involve animals being put in harm's way. If there's going to be changes it's going to come from either the Stampede or the people. And if people are frustrated -- as they should be -- rather than sending an angry email to Calgary Humane Society who can't do anything: contact the Stampede, contact your local MLA because that's the only way that things are going to change. Either the Stampede makes the change, there's a change to a law, or there's a change in perspective in the people sitting in those seats because every night those seats are full.

RB: Mr. Fulton it was good to talk to you. Thank you.

PF: Thank you very much for your time.

KG: Phil Fulton is manager of community outreach at the Calgary Humane Society.

[Music]

Explosives Retrieval

Guest: Neil Burgess

KG: In the minds of many Canadians, the Second World War was a distant conflict, fought on faraway continents. But this week, Newfoundlanders will get an explosive reminder of just how close to their shores the battle raged. A team of military divers from the Royal Canadian Navy began an operation today into the depths of the ocean just off Bell Island in eastern Newfoundland. Their mission is to retrieve undetonated explosives -- up to 200 of them. Neil Burgess has been to the site. Mr. Burgess is the President of the Shipwreck Preservation Society of Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in Flat Rock, Newfoundland.

RB: Mr. Burgess these explosives have clearly been down there for a while now. How come the armed forces is looking to remove them now?

NEIL BURGESS: Well as those ships rust and corrode different things become exposed over time and that's the case with some of these shells. Some of the lockers -- the steel lockers -- that they were held in are starting to fall apart, and the shells are becoming more visible.

RB: How dangerous are these shells?

NB: They were used to defend these ships from a submarine on the surface. So they do a lot of damage. They were high explosive shells.

RB: Can you tell us the story about the wrecks -- how they came to be there and a little bit about the history behind them?

NB: Sure. The Bell Island Iron Mines were the biggest iron ore mines in the British Empire in the Second World War. So they were hugely important to the Allied war effort. So these four ships were at Bell Island to load up with iron ore and then go over to Cape Breton to take it to the Sydney Steel Mills where it would be turned into steel.

RB: And what happened to the four ships?

NB: Well the German Navy knew about Bell Island and the importance of the mines because Nazi Germany was the biggest customer of iron ore from Bell Island in the late 30s before World War Two started. So in the war U-boats twice came to Bell Island in 1942 and attacked ships there with torpedoes and they sank four ships altogether.

RB: Do you think many Canadians know about this history? As we were saying I think most Canadians thought the Second World War was a pretty distant conflict. But the fact was, it actually came at one point right to Canada's shores.

NB: Yeah. I mean this was right on our doorstep. So in 1942 German U-boats were hunting off Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. And right up into the St. Lawrence River -- north of Gaspe Bay. The Germans sank dozens of ships including several Royal Canadian Navy warships.

RB: When you dive down to go and examine these ships, what does it look like down there?

NB: Two things really strike you diving on these ships. One is how huge they are. They're 450 feet long. And they take a whole dive just to swim around the outside of the ship -- each ship. And they're incredibly beautiful because of all the marine life that has started to grow on them. There's all kinds of anemones that look like flowers and starfish and crabs and codfish and sculpin -- and all different kinds of things going on them. So they're really beautiful dive sites. But then you see something that reminds you that there are also war graves. So in three of the ships, sailors died on them when they were sunk. And you'll come across things like a toothbrush or a shoe lying on the deck or in one of the wash rooms and you can't help but think you know was a sailor wearing this when the ship was sunk...and it's a bit eerie.

RB: What was the first personal effect that you saw when you went down?

NB: I saw somebody's shoe in one of the washrooms next to where the sinks and the toilets were. Like everything stopped for me when I saw that. The enjoyment of the dive and all the beauty and all that, it just stopped. And all I could think of was the poor guys who were on the ship when it was sunk.

RB: How is the Navy -- how is the military going to deal with these very explosive, these dangerous relics?

NB: To be honest I'm not an expert. What I can tell you is most of these shells would not have had the fuse inserted into it yet. They did that shortly before they were going to fire them. Most of the shells probably wouldn't be an immediate threat.

RB: Where are the shells going to be taken to?

NB: I think what's happening is the Navy is going to lift the shells up and they'll take them ashore. About an hour out of St. John's there's a military rifle range and I think there the police will actually use a small explosive charge to blow up the shells.

RB: It really does sound like a museum down there in a way. And I know this might sound like an odd question but is there any part of you that is going to miss those shells down there?

NB: Well yes -- I guess the answer is yes because they're part of the story and they make it a little more real diving on those wrecks. Now to be honest I'll be quite thankful to get rid of explosive off the wrecks because I don't want to be blown up when I go diving. But it was from the war and those ships were armed for their defense. And that was part of the story. So it is exciting to see the shells when you're diving along on the deck or something. But all it would take would be some person to decide they want to take home a souvenir and they could put their whole family at risk. And that's just not worth it.

RB: Mr. Burgess it was good to talk to you today. Thanks so much for your time.

NB: Oh glad to talk to you Robyn.

KG: Neil Burgess is the president of the Shipwreck Preservation Society of Newfoundland and Labrador. We reached him in Flat Rock, Newfoundland.

[Music]

Car Time

KG: A Japanese car rental company is asking its customers to please also take its cars for a spin. An official with Orix found it necessary to tell the newspaper Asahi Shimbun -- quote -- "We believe it's best for our cars to be used for driving." But that belief apparently isn't shared by what Orix describes as the "several percent" of its renters who travel no distance at all. And Orix's stats seem to match those of other companies providing short term rentals for sometimes 30 minutes or less. Japan's leading car share company, Times24, surveyed customers to find out what they're doing instead. And before you go jumping to conclusions, they were not at all shifting into something more comfortable to pursue what Meatloaf described as 'paradise by the dashboard lights.' Instead the company found people paid for a moment of peace and privacy before returning to the heavy traffic of modern life. The rental cars were used for naps, chats, and doing business on the phone without bothering others which is almost as polite as the people who wanted somewhere to eat where they wouldn't have to chew in some stranger's face. And I think everyone would applaud the customers surveyed by another rental company -- those who said they used rental cars to squeeze into Halloween costumes and to practice rapping.

[Music]

Part 2: Still no freedom for Eritrean man falsely identified as human-trafficking kingpin

Desjardins Meeting

Guest: John McKay

KG: They ditched the barbecue circuit and headed to Parliament Hill for a rare summer meeting. The members of the Commons' Public Safety Committee gathered this afternoon. The emergency meeting was called to discuss the Desjardins data breach. Last month the Quebec based bank said the data of 2.7 million of its customers had been compromised. The data includes names, addresses, birth dates, social insurance numbers, and information about transaction habits. The company announced today it's come up with a -- quote -- "permanent solution to protect customers from future identity theft." But MPs still had plenty of questions. John Mckay is the Liberal MP who's the head of that committee. We reached him part way through the session in Ottawa.

RB: Mr. McKay what questions do you want answered at today's meeting?

JOHN MCKAY: Well I think the fundamental question is how does 2.7 million pieces of data get into the hands of a criminal element. Seems pretty fundamental that when Canadians give over their data -- sensitive data -- to an institution they should have a reasonable expectation that their privacy is virtually absolute.

RB: What's your biggest concern for all these people who have had their personal data leaked?

JM: That somehow somewhere sometime that data will be used in a manner that is against their best interests. And it is just out there and no one really knows when it will be actioned.

RB: You've heard from the RCMP and CSE so far -- the intelligence agency -- what have they had to say?

JM: Well the RCMP says well this is being handled by other levels of police services but we coordinate with them -- and I mean it's not great comfort to those who are very worried about this particular instance. The CSE talks about the protocols that they have and the regular communications they have with financial institutions again all well and good but not a great deal of comfort to the individuals before us.

RB: And many people might say that this really is an issue for the security agencies. What role do you see politicians here playing?

JM: I think calling agencies and entities to account and where there is regulatory gaps to start to fill them in. I think this is an absolutely appropriate role for a parliamentary committee to call in the various witnesses and to start the process of calling those agencies to account.

RB: Right. Because the president of Desjardins says that this emergency meeting is too soon and it's happening too quickly given that there's currently a criminal investigation underway. What do you say to that?

JM: I don't think any meeting such as this is too soon. In fact arguably it's too late. And I don't know whether it's actually up to the officer -- any officer at Desjardins -- to tell MPs what timing should occur.

RB: What do you mean when you say it is too late?

JM: Well interestingly for the last six months we have been studying this very issue of data security by financial institutions. They've raised a lot of concerns among the committee members. Things that frankly I didn't know and I'm pretty sure most of the committee members didn't know. And we started to realize the inherent vulnerability of our data.

RB: Some of your Conservative colleagues were floating the idea of issuing new social insurance numbers to customers affected by this breach. How feasible do you think that option is?

JM: Good question. And I would know the answer to that a bit better except that I'm talking to you and that person is making the presentation as we speak. [Laughs]

RB: I will let you go, but just on that -- what is your initial thought about that? Because we certainly spoke to somebody who was affected by this breach last week and he said more than just giving us social insurance numbers, he would like to see something like biometric numbers because these nine little numbers that we have on these simple cards were so far behind other countries when it comes to security.

JM: I don't think he's wrong. Certainly the SIN card if you look at it is a very weak piece of identity document. And while I am attracted to the superficial appeal of reissuing you know 2.9 million social insurance numbers, I think that it's maybe problematic and may actually create more problems than it solves.

RB: What do you mean by it might create more problems than solutions?

JM: Well then you would have two social insurance numbers for every individual. The numbers don't actually die and probably will raise red flags. It is a problematic solution.

RB: We don't know yet where this data has landed. But say it lands in the hands of criminal elements. What's your biggest fear here?

JM: Well it is a very big fear and a very legitimate fear -- it may actually be a realized fear. It can be used in ways that are way beyond my mind and possibly your imagining. Someone can imitate who we are -- then we have serious problems.

RB: The banks will rush to say our banking system is safe, Canadians need not worry. But has this made you rethink things?

JM: Well we've been rethinking things for the last six months. It is a worry. It is a critical point of infrastructure in our nation. And the data in the hands of both state and non-state actors can be manipulated in ways that is against not only individual interests or not even corporate interests but national interests. So this is a very very serious issue.

RB: But you're not at the point yet where you're going to store your money under your pillow case?

JM: The mattress is looking pretty good right now. No, I think we're way beyond that point. But it does call into question the viability of open banking which is being floated by Google and others. I think that this kind of incident makes everybody look again at the security of financial transactions.

RB: Mr. McKay I'll let you get back to your meeting. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us.

JM: Thank you.

KG: John McKay is a Liberal MP, and he chairs the House of Commons' Public Safety Committee. We spoke to him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Hodan Nalayeh

KG: Somali-Canadian journalist Hodan Nalayeh wanted to change people's minds about Somalia by changing the stories they heard. Rather than tales of conflict, famine, or despair -- she highlighted the beauty of Somalia. She told those stories on her YouTube channel called Integration TV. In 2017 Metro Morning host Matt Galloway spoke to Hodan Nalayeh about a recent visit to Somalia amid a drought. She had interviewed a mother whose four year old child had died of measles.

SOUNDCLIP

HODAN NALAYEH: To be honest with you what really amazed me is that despite that she was so grateful still just to be alive and to have her other children with her. And I think that's the resilience of Somalis is that you know despite the harsh conditions they're in and the weather they're facing, they're still such faithful people to like life goes on.

MATT GALLOWAY: Where does that resilience come from do you think?

HODAN NALAYEH: I think it's faith. I think is them trusting they've lived off the environment so long -- the nomads -- that they expect hardship. They know that suffering is part of life and tomorrow's a new day.

MATT GALLOWAY: Why did you want to go and make these videos?

HODAN NALAYEH: Well about two years ago I really got interested in discovering Somalia and learning about my past and going back to the small town I was born in. So I just really fell in love with the culture and the people and the way they think and the way of life. And it's a lot different than what the media portrays.

MATT GALLOWAY: What's different than what it is that we are seeing?

HODAN NALAYEH: Well when I started Integration TV that's exactly what it was about -- it was changing the image of Somalis around the world, and particularly in Canada also. But what I realized was that in Somalia -- it's a beautiful country. I mean the nature in that country is just amazing and I think because of the conflict people have forgotten that nation. And hopefully...

MATT GALLOWAY: That's not the narrative that people know. People know of what people call a failed state -- I mean at constant war. We now have a drought again where 20 million people are at risk of starvation. How do you balance you know the beauty of the nature with what else is happening there which is a very real crisis that the country is in?

HODAN NALAYEH: Well I always say that stories are always two sides, right? I mean whatever you focus on is what you will share. And the Western media tends to always focus on the suffering of that nation and the problems and the bombings. But people are still living. And like I said that that mother's story is no different than the suicide bomber who's doing terrible things. I mean if we share the human stories I think Somalia would become more than hashtag -- especially for this drought -- I mean there's a hashtag Love Army for Somalia right now that's raised two million dollars with Ben Stiller and all these Hollywood celebrities. And all these young Somalis now using another hashtag in Somali called [speaking in Somali] -- and these are movements that are happening online because people want to see humanity. They're tired of the one sided reporting of people.

KG: That was Somali-Canadian journalist Hodan Nalayeh speaking with CBC in 2017. She and her husband were among 26 people killed Friday when terrorists bombed a hotel in Kismayo, Somalia.

[Music]

Alan Turing

KG: Alan Turing is the father of modern computing. He was also a big part of the Allies' victory in the Second World War through his cracking of the Enigma Code. Sadly, instead of receiving praise, the British government prosecuted Mr. Turing for being gay. He took his own life after a forced chemical castration. But today, the Bank of England announced it will recognize Mr. Turing's achievements. His portrait will grace the new 50 pound bank note. Here's Bank of England governor Mark Carney on the BBC.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK CARNEY: He helped end the war two years early saving millions of lives. Beyond that he's the father of modern computing. He is the father of artificial intelligence. Virtually everything we use today in our day to day lives is derived from Turing's genius. And he did all that within four decades. And as well on top of it, he's an individual who unfortunately suffered a great tragedy -- was persecuted during his lifetime. And I think the response of the country to that also shows the value of this country which are exemplary.

KG: That's Bank of England governor Mark Carney explaining why Alan Turing's image will be on the new 50 pound note. In 2009, As It Happens spoke with computer scientist John Graham-Cumming. He started a petition demanding the British Government apologize to Mr. Turing. From our archives, here's part of that interview.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN GRAHAM-CUMMING: So Alan Turing was homosexual and he was quite open about it. And in 1952 his house was burgled. And it was burgled by an acquaintance of his boyfriend. And Turing went to the police to report the burglary. And during investigation it came out that was he was homosexual. And he was then arrested and tried and prosecuted for gross indecency which was the term used for a private homosexual act.

ROBERT HARRIS: And what was the outcome of that prosecution?

JOHN GRAHAM-CUMMING: Well he had the choice of either being sent to prison or he could take sort of cure for homosexuality which was to be given estrogen injections for a year. The idea was that it would reduce libido and he would be I guess less gay in some ways. And the outcome of that was that he did have a estrogen injections and that of course would have some sort of feminised effect on his body such as growing breasts. And two years after his conviction he committed suicide by apparently dipping an apple in potassium cyanide and biting it.

ROBERT HARRIS: I can understand why you wanted to start this petition. So you've begun a petition now, and the petition is for what?

JOHN GRAHAM-CUMMING: The petition is asking that the British Government apologize for the treatment of Alan Turing. And really my goal in that was to say Alan Turing isn't well known in the UK partly because he died so young and I wanted to raise his name up in the national consciousness. And also I think that it's important for us today to make statements where we do stop and say this was wrong, we shouldn't have done it, and we won't do this sort of thing again.

KG: From 2009 that's British computer scientist John Graham-Cumming, and guest host Robert Harris. Mr. Graham-Cumming successfully lobbied the British Government to apologize to Alan Turing. And today the Bank of England announced that Mr. Turing will be featured on the new 50 pound note.

[Music]

Eritrean Released

Guest: Meron Estefanos

KG: In 2016, Italian prosecutors announced they'd captured Africa's most wanted people smuggler. They called Medhanie Mered the 'Al Capone of the desert.' And called his arrest a blow to human trafficking. Then came the reports and investigations showing that they had the wrong man. On Friday, the courts finally agreed it was a case of mistaken identity. And Medhanie Berhe was acquitted. But our next guest says that it's still unclear what happens to him next. Meron Estefanos is a Swedish-Eritrean journalist. She was one of the first people to call attention to Mr. Berhe's innocence. We reached Ms. Estefanos today in Amsterdam.

RB: Ms. Estefanos, Medhanie Berhe spent more than three years in jail. Does his release feel like a victory to you?

MERON ESTEFANOS: Not really. That's the irony. This person has been suffering for three years and two months to prove that he is not the person that they think he is. That he's not Medhanie Mered. That he's Medhanie Berhe instead. So after so many evidence, it was proven finally -- we were thinking justice was served but unfortunately that same day justice was denied again where he is now at a (detention) centre which is a deportation centre awaiting deportation to be determined. So it's not really freedom for him because he's moved from one prison to another prison.

RB: Many European papers are saying this is one of the worst cases of mistaken identity they have seen in some time. I wonder if you could just back up and tell us a little bit of that story. Mr. Berhe was of course the victim of a mistaken identity -- that's been proven now. But for three years who did authorities claim he actually was?

ME: They claimed that they had gotten Medhanie Mered -- who was wanted by the Italians. But the accusation against him as far as the tragedies that happened on October 3rd, 2016 -- where 368 Eritreans drowned in Lampedusa. Plus this person -- the smuggler -- I have interviewed him before. He told me he had smuggled over 13,000 refugees in just two years. So for that reason of course he was wanted by many European governments.

RB: These two men men -- Medhaine Mered and Medhaine Berhe -- they obviously share a first name and they're both Eritrean. But after that -- really -- the similarities stop. The fellow who was put in prison was a former milkman and a farmer, yes?

ME: Yeah that's the weird thing because first of all Medhaine is a very common name which in Italian means Salvatore. It's a very common name. And then when you look at them you know they don't even look alike. That other one is much older than him -- probably 10 years older than him. And the real smugglers the way he talks -- he grew up in a very rural area so there is a different accent. Berhe is from the capital city so even the voice doesn't even add up. So there were so many evidences where the smuggler himself called The New Yorker and did an interview. The smuggler's wife -- she testified that it was not her husband. His mother came from Eritea and gave DNA testing. I went to Uganda together with Swedish TV and prove that the real smuggler is actually living freely in a luxurious place in Kampala, Uganda. Refugees that were tortured by the actual smuggler testified and they were called liars.

RB: So how do you explain this then because this was a joint Italian and British operation to arrest this fellow who is now known to be innocent. But how did they get it so wrong?

ME: Well as I say it was Sweden who was asked to wiretap the wife. They were wiretapping her and following her Internet activity and saw the milkman -- Medhaine Berhe -- happen to write her on Facebook which was a coincidence. And he was trying to flirt with her. He sent out a Facebook message saying he likes her, she looks good, and she was saying I'm married. So this conversation Sweden thought this is her husband.

RB: Do you think that part of the reason why the Italians took so long to admit that they had the wrong man is because at first this was presented as kind of a brilliant coup that they had caught this notorious people smuggler and at the time there were people -- migrants -- dying, and all of the sudden it looked like the solution might be to target the human traffickers. And so do you think they were so embarrassed when they found out that they actually got the wrong man?

ME: Of course. I mean they were very embarrassed. But they could have washed their hands off like the Roman prosecutor who actually wrote a report saying this is the wrong person. But instead they were all silent hoping that somehow they will get a conviction so that they don't get embarrassed.

RB: What kind of tool has this whole ordeal taken on him and his family?

ME: He's very depressed. He has given up on the European justice system. He feels that they have something on him or they don't want to let go of this. He's traumatized and depressed.

RB: Do you know what's going to happen to Mr. Berhe now? Will he be able to seek asylum somewhere?

ME: That's the idea. First it will take few weeks for him to be released from the deportation centre and then he will be asked to leave the country. So then he will have to ask asylum whether in Italy or somewhere else -- his sister lives in Norway so probably in Norway. We will see what happens.

RB: You have spent three years calling attention to Mr. Berhe's case of mistaken identity. Why was this so important to you?

ME: Well for many reasons. One is that it's the wrong person being prosecuted for a crime he had nothing to do. Secondly it's the crime that he's being accused of where 363 of my people died and I was there. And weeks with the survivors of that shipwreck -- and it just makes me really angry that in the name of this 360 Eriteans that drown in Italy you are prosecuting another innocent Eritrean. And it's an insult to those that died. So it has been a long road. I'm going to push for an inquiry on all those countries and especially on the prosecutor. It was an abuse of power of wiretapping journalists, translators, and many dirty things.

RB: Ms. Estefanos thank you for your time today. I appreciate it.

ME: Thank you for having me.

KG: Meron Estefanos is a Swedish-Eritrean journalist and refugee advocate. We reached her in Amsterdam.

[Music]

Black Mold

KG: In this corner: you. In that corner -- that one, and all over that one -- weighing heavily on your mind: black mold. In the battle of human versus fungus, it seems like the advantage should be ours after all we have brains and dehumidifiers but somehow no matter how you fight it, the mold always returns. There's a simple reason for that which comes as little consolation: black mold is extremely difficult to kill -- not just on Earth but in space too. The International Space Station has an ongoing problem with mold which might seem weird. But the ISS is an enclosed space and it gets damp. That means astronauts have to clean constantly to keep it from spreading. Which got scientists wondering about future space missions and whether mold would survive the radiation on the outside of a spacecraft. To find out researchers with the German Aerospace Centre blasted a common black mold called Aspergillus Niger with radiation. In the words of the lead researcher -- quote -- "stupid amounts of radiation." How stupid? Well radiation is measured in units called gray. Humans get radiation sickness when exposed to .5 gray, and die when exposed to five gray. These researchers exposed the black mold to much larger doses of two different kinds of radiation: 500 to 1000 gray...and it survived. That could mean mold would survive a trip to another planet. One astrobiologist even wonders if it's apparent ability to survive in space means it came from space. Regardless we now know that mold is tougher than we thought. Tougher than we are in fact. So it's no wonder it keeps defeating our attempts to destroy it. We keep trying new methods of attack but we can't break the mold.

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July 15, 2019 Episode Transcript

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