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The AIH Transcript for July 8, 2019

Hosts: Robyn Bresnahan and Marcia Young

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Hello, I'm Robyn Bresnahan, sitting in for Carol Off.

MARCIA YOUNG: Good evening, I'm Marcia Young. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

MY: Tonight:

RB: Wealth of opportunity. U.S. federal prosecutors charge multimillionaire financier Jeffrey Epstein with sex trafficking involving dozens of minors — 11 years after he received a shockingly mild punishment for similar charges.

MY: Hundreds of victims with one man in common. At the International Criminal Court, A Congolese rebel commander known as “The Terminator” is found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity in that country's bloody conflict.

RB: I spy with my many eyes something that is green. Environmental groups share hundreds of pages of heavily redacted documents they say prove Canada's spy agency infiltrated pipeline protests.

MY: Going solo. A Hong Kong based singer and pro-democracy activist asks the U.N. to intervene in the fight over the city's proposed extradition law — and remove China from the Human Rights Council.

RB: Bosa supernova. The style he pioneered was gentle and cool — but in Brazil, in the late ‘50s, the music of the late de Joao Gilberto was nothing less than a full scale cultural explosion.

MY: And… six figures to clean up 21 figures. Rembrandt's “The Night Watch” is a crowded canvas — and now, staff at the Rijksmuseum hope their public restoration of that intimidatingly huge painting will attract crowds as well.

MY: As It Happens, the Monday edition. Radio that looks at the big picture.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Epstein latest, CSIS documents, Rijksmuseum restoration

Epstein latest

Guest: Elie Honig

MY: It's been 11 years since Jeffrey Epstein signed a controversial, once-secret plea. After which, he clearly believed he was scot-free. But today, the multi-millionaire found himself in a federal court, facing charges of sex-trafficking and conspiracy. According to prosecutors, Mr. Epstein abused dozens of underage girls between 2002 and 2005 — paying them hundreds of dollars to come to his homes in New York and Palm Beach, under the guise of giving him a massage. Mr. Epstein has pleaded not-guilty to the charges — which carry penalties of up to life in prison. Here's U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Geoffrey Berman speaking today:

SOUNDCLIP

GEOFFREY BERMAN: As alleged, Epstein was well aware that many of his victims were minors. And not surprisingly, many of the underage girls that Epstein allegedly victimized were particularly vulnerable to exploitation. The alleged behaviour shocks the conscience. And while the charged conduct is from a number of years ago, it is still profoundly important to the many alleged victims now young women. They deserve their day in court.

MY: Elie Honig is a former federal and state prosecutor. We reached him in New York.

RB: Mr. Honig, what do you make of these new charges against Jeffrey Epstein?

ELIE HONIG: Well, a couple of things. First of all, Jeffrey Epstein is in a world of trouble. He's facing incredibly serious charges on the child sex trafficking case. And it sounds like the Southern District has found new evidence when they executed a search warrant the other day that sounds like it's probably possession of child pornography images — which I expect will be added to the indictment as well. So Epstein is looking at an awful lot of time behind bars. For a guy who's 66 years old as Epstein is, it could be really the rest of his life.

RB: Tell us more about him. What is he accused of doing?

EH: Well, he's accused of running a large-scale sex trafficking network. According to the indictment, Epstein would target young girls — having them brought to him to his various residences in New York and Florida — and then coercing them into having sex with him. And by the way, the law presumes coercion for under-age victims. But he would coerce those victims. And then worse, he would build his network by turning some of those victims into his own recruiters. He would pay them to then find other young girls for him to have sex with and to molest.

RB: Now, this is not the first time he has faced charges. Eleven years ago, Mr. Epstein signed a secret deal with prosecutors called a non-prosecution agreement. In that agreement, Mr. Epstein pleaded guilty to two prostitution charges in a state court — ultimately served 13 months. In exchange, he received immunity from all federal criminal charges. What does that immunity mean for this case and these new charges?

EH: So a couple of things. First of all, the deal that Epstein got in southern district of Florida years ago is really unconscionably unjust. I've seen all manner of plea deals, non-prosecution deals. I've done hundreds or thousands of them myself. I don't think I've ever seen a deal that was this generous to a defendant. There's so much wrong with the deal. Fortunately, that agreement is only binding on the district that entered into the agreement with him — which is the Southern District of Florida. It is not binding on any of the other 92 U.S. attorneys organized geographically around the country — including the Southern District of New York. So it really does not do anything to preclude the indictment that we heard today.

RB: Why was it so unjust do you think?

EH: Well, there's so much wrong with the deal. The fact that he only got 13 months, and by the way, he spent most of that on work release — so he wasn't actually behind bars for much of it. The fact that the deal even purported to immunize Epstein's co-conspirators — other people involved in running this organization or this network with him — that is also absolutely unheard of. The fact that the U.S. Attorney's Office — Acosta, the prosecutor, — did not notify victims. You have an obligation — and now it's a statutory obligation — to notify victims. So it's beyond it's beyond the pale. I've seen soft plea deals. I've seen plea deals I did not agree with. I don't think I've ever seen one quite this bad in quite this inexcusable.

RB: In that deal that we're just talking about, according to The Miami Herald — which has really been at the forefront of investigating this — it was brokered by the former U.S. Attorney Alexander Acosta, who now serves as President Trump's labour secretary. Where does this all leave Acosta?

EH: Acosta is in a very tough spot. I think he is going to have a really hard time defending his actions. Is he in criminal trouble? Almost certainly not — unless some brand new evidence pops up. But I think Congress needs to investigate him. I think it's going to be really hard for him to stay in his position as a cabinet secretary in this administration. I know the president has said he continues to support Acosta. But boy, if he did the right thing, he would resign. And if he doesn't, then I think Congress has a real obligation to dig in, to find the facts, and perhaps to consider impeachment.

RB: In an article you wrote for CNN, you said that Mr. Epstein dodged justice the first time. But this time you say he is, quote, likely cooked. What convinces you of that?

EH: Well, a couple of reasons. First of all, it's the southern district of New York now on the case not the Southern District Florida. Also, as a practical matter, you have a very bright media spotlight on the case now. And I don't think there's any way this case gets sort of shuffled away in the shadows as it was down in Florida.

RB: Jeffrey Epstein had friends in high places. He was friends with Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, even Prince Andrew. What do you think is the potential political fallout here?

EH: Well, that remains to be seen. I do think there obviously were more people than Jeffrey Epstein involved in running this network. And more people participated in the sexual abuse. I think that's clear from the reporting and the indictment itself. We don't know who those people are. Will we learn? I think will depend on how this case plays out. If it goes to trial, ultimately, we probably will learn those names. But that's many, many months down the road. If it does not go to trial, I don't think we'll learn who else might have been involved — unless and until there are other indictments.

RB: We heard U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Jeffrey Berman today say how important it is for the alleged victims in this case to have their day in court. How important do you think it will be for them?

EH: It's so important. And I have direct experience with this. I did a sex trafficking case similar in some respects to this one that was a network of sex traffickers who were basically buying and selling women up and down the East Coast. And the trial we did, we arrested 30-35 people. Most of them pled guilty, but we did a trial against five of the remaining defendants. And the bulk of our case was calling as witnesses these victims — many of them illegally young women. And it's difficult to win the trust of these victims, but it's so important that these victims be supported and be listened to. And if truthful, and I certainly was convinced that mine were. There's no reason I think they'd really dispute that here then yes, they need to be heard. They need to be put on the stand if necessary their testimony counts just as much as anybody else.

RB: Mr. Hoenig, it was good to talk to you. Thank you very much for your time.

EH: Anytime. Thank you. All right.

RB: Bye-bye

MY: Elie Honig is a former federal and state prosecutor. He's in New York. And we've posted more on that story on our website: www.cbc.ca/asithappens.

[Music: Smooth jazz]

CSIS documents

Guest: Caitlyn Vernon

MY: They're calling them the "Protest Papers." This afternoon, the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association published thousands of pages of heavily redacted documents. The BCCLA received the documents as part of its ongoing legal fight on behalf of environmental and indigenous groups that have taken Canada's spy agency in court. The activists argue that CSIS broke the law by infiltrating pipeline protests, and by passing information on to the oil and gas industry. Caitlyn Vernon is a Campaigns Director with the Sierra Club. We reached her at the ferry terminal outside Victoria, British Columbia.

RB: Ms. Vernon, when you say that Canada's spy agency was infiltrating anti-pipeline groups, what kind of infiltration are you talking about?

CAITLYN VERNON: It was in the context of people who were engaging in the federal review process for the Enbridge Northern Gateway pipeline and tankers project. So people were participating in this federal process — a totally lawful part of our democracy to do so. And Sierra Club B.C. — along with other organizations — we were supporting folks on what to expect, how to navigate the public process, tips on things like how to speak from the heart when you're talking to the to the panel, and then organizing rallies and so on. And so it was these types of activities that were being monitored by CSIS.

RB: These documents — and I'm holding one now — absolutely black with redactions. What kind of evidence do you actually have?

CV: The watchdog body that oversees CSIS has said that CSIS has done no wrong. The original complaint was filed because it's unlawful for CSIS to be monitoring law abiding citizens. And so they say they've done no wrong. But you know when I don't do anything I don't generate thousands of documents. So we we're challenging them in court. We want to see what these thousands of pages of documents say. What the blacked out part is. So there's definitely evidence that CSIS has been monitoring groups like ours. And there's also evidence that against Canadian law, CSIS was sharing information with oil companies like Enbridge.

RB: And what proof do you have of that?

CV: It's part of the SIRC. So SIRC is the watchdog body overseeing CISIS. It was part of their ruling that they found that CISIS had shared information with the National Energy Board and with oil companies. So this is this is part of what we're challenging in court is to find out the details of what exactly was shared.

RB: Why do you think it's problematic for Canada's spy agency to be keeping up to speed with a protest movement that it has led to arrests, and of course, it concerns a huge economic driver for the country?

CV: It's entirely unlawful for CSIS to be collecting information on Canadians who are engaged in peaceful, law abiding activities — which is what we saw in the protests and the participation around the Enbridge pipeline and tankers project. And it's also unlawful for them to be sharing that information with the oil companies. So the whole thing seems kind of an attempt to silence dissent and really to put the interests of our government — to put the interests of oil and gas companies — ahead of the interests of regular Canadians.

RB: Are there individual names mentioned here? I mean is your name mentioned at all?

CV: Well, this is part of it. There's thousands of pages and documents that most of it has been blacked out. So I have I have no idea if my name is in there or not. That's part of what we're trying to find out is to get those redactions listed and get more details on exactly what CSIS did, what information they shared with the oil companies, and hold them accountable.

RB: How hopeful are you that you'll get that information?

CV: Well, it's taken a number of years to get this far. I testified in secret spy hearings on this issue four years ago. And I'm under a gag order. Even this many years later, I'm prohibited by law to tell you what I talked about or what they asked. And it took a few years for our lawyers at the B.C. Civil Liberties Association to even get these redacted documents released. So it's likely to be heard this fall in the federal court. And this is a really important issue for all Canadians. These are basic fundamental rights of freedom of speech and freedom to protest our democracy. So I'm hopeful that we're going to get more information.

RB: CSIS would not give us an interview for today. They did send us a statement. And pointed to a 2017 decision from the Security Intelligence Review Committee — which you've already said is shortened to SIRC. SIRC dismissed the concerns raised by the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, after finding that information gathered on peaceful groups such as yours was just incidental. And that the spy agency's real targets were other legitimate threats. And SIC also found, that quote, the service did not share information regarding these groups or individuals with non-governmental members of the petroleum industry. So how do you respond to that?

CV: Well, first of all, my understanding is that they did share the information with the National Energy Board and with the oil companies. We know that Enbridge, for example, the company had sponsored one of those briefings. We don't know exactly what happened within them. So that's part of what we're challenging. And again, there are thousands of pages of documents. So it's clear that something was done. That something was being monitored. And the crux of the issue here really is that speaking up for clean drinking water should not make us an enemy of the state. You know, being concerned about wanting to breathe air that's free from wildfire smoke should not make us suspect in the eyes of our government. The real threat to our national security right now and to our safety is the climate crisis. It's not B.C. residents who are speaking up about salmon and a future for our children.

RB: Do you genuinely feel like an enemy of the state?

CV: Well no, I feel like somebody who is concerned about the future. I feel like somebody who's concerned about clean drinking water, about salmon. The climate crisis is real. The urgency is real. We're seeing wildfires the last couple of years across B.C. The threats are really serious. And to be defending our communities we need to be doing something to reduce our carbon pollution. And you know does that put us at odds with a government that's pushing a tar sands pipeline — the Trans Mountain pipeline — on B.C? It does. This is one of our fundamental rights as Canadians is to be able to speak up. And people should not feel scared to engage in public debate for fear of you know CSIS putting them on some list and monitoring them in some way. And that's what we saw is that people were scared to sign a petition or to attend a rally or even to volunteer because they were scared of being spied on. And it's our fundamental right to be able to engage in a in a discussion about what future we want for our children.

RB: Ms. Vernon, I know you have a ferry to catch. We'll let you go. Thanks very much.

CV: Thank you so much.

RB: Bye-bye.

CV: Bye

MY: Caitlin Vernon is a Campaigns Director with the Sierra Club. We reached her at the ferry terminal outside Victoria, British Columbia.

[Music: Smooth jazz]

Rijksmuseum restoration

Guest: Petria Noble

MY: Today, "Operation Night Watch" began in Amsterdam. Sounds like the name of a military operation. And even though it involves a giant work of art, the director of the Rijksmuseum says that's about right. "Operation Night Watch" is a public restoration project that the Guardian has called "the largest and most elaborate ... in history." A specially-built glass chamber has been put up around Rembrandt's painting “The Night Watch,” so that museum visitors can see the painting as research — and, later, restoration — takes place. Petria Noble is the head of paintings conservation at the Rijksmuseum. We reached her in Amsterdam.

RB: Ms. Noble, can you describe what this famous Rembrandt looks like today?

PETRIA NOBLE: Well, I think the first thing that strikes you is that it's a very large painting. It's more than four metres wide. It's four-metres-35, actually — and three-metres-79-centimetres in height. And then the other thing that strikes you is that it's a group portrait, but it's a very dynamic group portrait. You see at the forefront of the painting two major figures — one in black, one in sort of pale yellow. And then a multitude of figures in a sort of a dark kind of you know architecture. So you know it's a very striking painting.

RB: What does it look like around the painting today?

PN: Today, if you walked into the gallery, what you would see is the painting surrounded by this you know beautiful glass house essentially. It's with a black frame. It's very elegant. It's a very spacious kind of enclosure. It's some seven metres deep. And the gallery in which the painting is is quite a spacious gallery. And it has a long view — the Hall of Honor — which leads up to “The Night Watch.” So “The Night Watch” has very much pride of place in the Rijksmuseum.

RB: It was quite a task to get the glass chamber up. What was involved?

PN: Well, I mean this has been all the logistics involved in this has been going on for more than a year actually. So the glass house was actually installed in the gallery in the last two weeks, so you know that part of the gallery was actually closed off while they built up that space. But I mean it took a lot of planning. I mean there were a lot of people involved, a lot of measurements involved. There were you know digital designs made. You know there was a whole discussion about exactly how high it should be. So I mean there was an incredible lot of planning.

RB: Of course, when we say “The Night Watch,” many people can picture this painting right away. It is one of Rembrandt's most famous works. But tell us about the significance of it?

PN: Well, it's actually called “The Night Watch,” but it I mean that was the name that was only given to it you know much later. Now, I think I think it's a very significant painting. It's painted a very pivotal moment 1642. It is a phase that is really right before his famous late phase. You know that's always considered from the 1650s onwards. So this is actually one of the goals of the research as well is to come to a better understanding of exactly its positioning in Rembrandt’s development of his painting technique. You know, we know a lot about the early Rembrandt. We know a lot about the late Rembrandt. But you know I think when we have finished sort of studying this painting, we'll have much more of an idea about how key this painting is in terms of the development of his painting technique and his use of materials.

RB: When was the last time that this painting was restored?

PN: In 1975 — between ‘75 and ‘76. The painting actually was it was attacked in 1975 with a serrated knife. Several slashes — I think it was a total of 12 somewhat — a few of them were almost a metre long through the central figures in the competition. So several millimeters wide, so in 1975, you know the gashes in the painting they were bridged on the back of the painting you know with small bridges that was the appropriate method at the time. And then the painting was lined. And then a year later, it was actually restored. And that was actually also a public restoration that took place in the galleries. Except when the restorers were working on the painting, the curtains were closed. And it was only when there was no one working on it that the curtains were open and the public could actually look in. So it was quite a different situation today because I mean we're working in this glass house that's completely open you know the entire time. So people can follow you know all the activities that are going on. But it's interesting to note that in 1975 there was this attention to also to share with the public.

RB: It looks a little bit like a giant fish tank. I'm wondering if the researchers and the restoration experts how they are feeling about kind of being in those metaphorical fish tank while the public watches?

PN: Yeah, I think the first few days or the first week will take a little getting used to. But I think you know it's like I mean conservation is a very focused activity. Whenever you're handling you know equipment or paintings you know I think you're completely focused on you know the activity at hand or the work of art at hand. So I think you know people will quickly get used to that. I know that was my feeling I mean when I've been in there is kind of you quickly forget that you know the public are looking on.

RB: Is there any sign that says do not bang on glass?

PN: Not yet.

RB: Ms. Noble, it was good to talk to you today. Thank you very much.

PN: Okay. My pleasure.

RB: Bye-bye.

PN: Okay. Bye-bye.

MY: Petria Noble is the head of paintings conservation at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. That's where we reached her.

[Music: “Chega de Saudade” by Joao Gilberto]

Joao Gilberto obit

MY: Mr. Gilberto, known as "the father of bossa nova", died on Saturday. He was 88 years old. His soft sound was actually hard-won. By 1958, when he recorded "Chega de Saudade", he'd already spent years in the wilderness. He'd lost jobs in bands, and had taken to just standing outside clubs in Rio, waiting for a chance to play. Then he met Mr. Jobim, who gave him a shot at recording his song. For a while, it languished. But his label kept pushing it, believing that if young listeners could hear it, it would blow their minds. Which, eventually, it did. Mr. Gilberto's carefully-built sound had finally made him a star in Brazil. Then, his 1964 album with saxophonist Stan Getz made him a star everywhere -- and made "The Girl from Ipanema" an instant, and enduring, classic. It launched an international career that Mr. Gilberto seemed ambivalent about: he was a naturally reclusive cat-lover who had stage fright, and demanded silence from audiences wherever he played. But then again, silence is really the only natural response to music as artful and hushed as his was.

[Music: Sombre piano]

Part two: Congo rebel ICC, Hong Kong UNHRC

Congo rebel ICC

Guest: Jean-Mobert Senga

MY: He's known as "The Terminator". And today, the Congolese rebel commander Bosco Ntaganda was convicted of war crimes. The International Criminal Court today convicted Mr. Ntaganda on a number of charges, including murder, rape, and sexual slavery for his role in a bloody ethnic conflict in the DRC's Ituri region. Jean-Mobert Senga is a researcher with Amnesty International who grew up in the neighbouring region of North Kivu -- where Bosco Ntaganda was also active. We reached Mr. Senga in Nairobi.

RB: Mr. Senga, what is your reaction to these guilty verdicts today?

JEAN-MOBERT SENGA: A guilty verdict against Bosco Ntaganda is a great news for the victims of his crimes — but also for all the people who have fought for justice for so many years.

RB: Can you give us a sense of those crimes he was convicted of?

JMS: Bosco Ntaganda has been convicted for crimes against humanity — and including recruitment of child soldiers in his militia, rape, murder, and destruction of villages, mutilation, and so many others.

RB: When you were growing up in the DRC, what did people think of Bosco Ntaganda?

JMS: He was very feared. And he was seen like an invisible man who would never face justice. Actually, he was justice himself. So he would save and kill without consequence. He was like a small god in that region. It's very difficult to really tell the feeling that one can have knowing that he's now going to spend many years or maybe his whole life in prison. Yeah, it's just difficult to believe.

RB: In your work, you have spoken to survivors of the crimes committed by his militias. What have they told you about what he did?

JMS: Yeah, they were very desperate mostly about his situation because, at that time, he was still in Goma commanding the army. They spoke about him as someone who was you know a terrorist in the literal sense of that word. Who would kill without you know without any feeling and any regret. And you know, somebody who was also feared by his fellow soldiers.

RB: Did you ever meet him?

JMS: I met him twice in Goma. But I did not have a chance to speak to him. But I just remember you know when you would meet his eyes, you feel like you want to run away — because even his face was an expression of terror.

RB: Did it become clear during the trial why in 2013 he handed himself in?

JMS: To my knowledge, no. It's still not clear because he hasn't expressed himself about what leads him to surrender at the surprise of everybody. I prefer not to you know to speculate about that.

RB: All right. Because some people said it was because he had changed sides many times that being locked up in the Hague was in a way maybe perhaps the safest place for him to be.

JMS: Yeah, that's possible. It was once said that he feared that he could be murdered by his former bosses — because he held secrets about their crimes and looting in the region. That's a possibility. But until he speaks out himself, nobody will know the truth.

RB: Throughout his trial at the ICC, he maintained his innocence. He said, quote, I have never attacked civilians. What was it like to hear him make claims like that?

JMS: Terrifying again. And you know seeing him calm and portraying himself as innocent and even as a victim himself. That was quite shocking ‘cause he was not only sentenced as a commander. He was also sentence as a perpetrator himself. So yeah, that's a shameless denial of reality.

RB: Well, you mentioned that he portrayed himself as a victim. He was a child soldier himself. Does that give you any sympathy for him given his background?

JMS: Personally, I don't have any sympathy for him. And I don't think the victims of his crimes do. Being as a child soldier himself should be you know a reason for him not to commit crimes. But he's himself persecuted and killed hundreds of innocent people. So that cannot be an excuse.

RB: We know that there has been more violence in the DRC lately. What kind of legacy do you think Bosco Ntaganda leaves in the country?

JMS: I don't think it's appropriate to talk about legacy when it comes to Bosco Ntaganda. I mean his sentencing is good news and certainly a positive step. But it's not the end. There are many, many Bosco Ntaganda’s in DRC — many Terminator that need to face justice. And that needs to happen. This sentencing should be a reminder to the DRC authority and the international community that justice is needed in that region. Bosco Ntaganda was protected for many years under the pretext of peace. But that peace has never happened. So what is needed to get real peace is justice and true justice and comprehensive Justice. It’s also a good signal to other criminals because they should know that however powerful they are today, they may have to face justice and you know be held accountable to the crimes they've committed or they are committing currently.

RB: Mr. Senga, thank you very much.

JMS: Thank you.

RB: Bye-bye.

JMS: Bye.

MY: Jean-Mobert Senga is an Amnesty International researcher who grew up in the DRC. We reached him in Nairobi. Violence in the country's Ituri region — where Bosco Ntaganda is convicted of committing war crimes — has once again been escalating in recent months. According to the United Nations, more than 300-thousand people there are newly displaced.

[Music: Indie rock]

Ing Wong-Ward obit

MY: Ing Wong-Ward became a journalist because she refused to let other people tell her story. She was born with the neurodegenerative disorder spinal muscular atrophy. She relied on a motorized wheelchair to get around. And you could often see Ing zipping around downtown Toronto wearing a great pair of shoes. During her 23 years at CBC, Ing Wong-Ward changed the way Canadians see and talk about disability — actively working to change what she called "loaded" conversations about people with disabilites. Ing died this past Saturday of complications from colon cancer. She was 46 years old. In her final years, she became an advocate for the dying — speaking about the importance of palliative care. But it wasn't the first time she used her own experiences to educate others and bring about change. Back in 2007 and 2008, Ing documented her high-risk pregnancy through a series of interviews with "Sounds Like Canada" host Shelagh Rogers. Here's Ing Wong-Ward, at 17 weeks pregnant.

SOUNDCLIP

ING WONG-WARD: I think the main thing for me — the most anxiety producing moment — has to be what is going to happen as I deliver. Anaesthesia for anyone is complicated. And I've been put under once and brought out successfully. I had a spinal fusion as a child. And so I was on the table for nine hours. And all I remember because I had no awareness of what a general was like, and now I do, you know I was just kind of falling asleep, this black hole, and waking up. So my concern over the anesthesia is you know do you know what you're doing? Because my muscle structure is weaker than most people's. My lungs are different than most people's. I'm smaller. I'm carrying a baby. There's a whole bunch of other issues at play here. And so is the convergence of being disabled and being pregnant. If I was not pregnant and merely disabled, you know there would be a set of factors that they could probably look at. If I was able-bodied and pregnant and had different kinds of complications, there's a certain number of factors that they could look at. But it seems to me what isn't clear is what does it mean to be someone who has spinal muscular atrophy who's also pregnant and wants to carry this pregnancy as long as I humanly can that's safe for both of us? So that seems to be the ultimate question as far as I can define it. And it's nothing that can be easily answered. And there's so many things about pregnancy for anybody that is a bit of a mystery as it is. But for me, there's additional mysteries. And it's no fun when you’re thinking I'm going be knocked out and not aware of that period of time that passes.

MY: From December 2007, that's Ing Wong-Ward sharing her experiences as a pregnant mother with spinal muscular atrophy on "Sounds Like Canada". Her daughter, Zhenmei, was born the following April. Ing Wong-Ward, a former CBC journalist and disability advocate, died this past Saturday after being diagnosed with colon cancer. She was 46.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

Hong Kong UNHRC

Guest: Denise Ho

MY: Yesterday, as they've done for weeks now, protestors took to the streets of Hong Kong, denouncing a proposed law that would allow extradition to China. And for weeks, Denise Ho has joined in those protests. She's a Hong Kong based pro-democracy activist, and one of the few pop stars in the city to openly oppose the bill. But this weekend, Ms. Ho wasn't on the streets of Hong Kong. Instead, she was in Geneva, preparing to take her fight to the United Nations Human Rights Council — which she did today. We reached Denise Ho in Geneva, Switzerland.

RB: Denise, what message did you want to bring to the UN's Human Rights Council today?

DENISE HO: Yes, my message to the council is that China is a country that is abusing human rights and democracy in Hong Kong and also in other places. So my demand and my request is that the United Nations they put this in question whether if they should still keep China as the member of the Human Rights Council. And also, of course, I raised the issue about the one country two systems model that this being also abused by the Chinese government in Hong Kong — and our autonomy in the Hong Kong legislative system being taken away.

RB: What kind of reaction did you get from those present?

DH: I was interrupted two times by the Chinese delegates who were in the council — basically for quite ridiculous reasons. They said I was attacking China, and putting Hong Kong at the same level — which was not true. I was only mentioning the interference of China in Hong Kong's legal affairs.

RB: What was your reaction when the Chinese delegation interrupted?

DH: Well, honestly, I was prepared for these interruptions because I have seen other speakers on China issues. So I had mental preparation for that. But, of course, you know it was my first time speaking in the United Nations council. It was a time issue because I only had 90 seconds. So their interruption, it didn't eat into my time, But still I had to pick it up after the interruptions.

RB: So with only 90 seconds, what do you think you achieved today?

DH: Well, I made the Chinese delegate speak up. And that was, in my opinion, an error from them because it only shows how restrictive they are against the people who speak in opposition of what China is doing. So I think the message is quite clear. I threw out two questions in the end. You know, should the United Nations keep this powerful country within their council when they are abusing human rights and democracy — not only in Hong Kong, but also in Tibet, everywhere in China basically. The international world needs to hear this message because obviously the countries do not dare to speak up in fear of political and economic reprisal. And so it comes back to the people to talk about these issues. And I'm very glad and very grateful for the U.N. Watch to have invited me to come to Geneva because it's a very critical moment in Hong Kong where people are still on the streets fighting very hard.

RB: Why is this so important for you personally? A lot of people have said that you have been pretty much blacklisted now in China. They won't play your songs. You've lost a lot of revenue. Yet, you are one of the few artists in Hong Kong to keep speaking out about this.

DH: Yes. And with this very strong statement today against the interference of the Chinese government I guess I will be you know even a bigger target for them. And so, for myself, I think I see all these young people on the streets. They are very desperate in Hong Kong with a government who does not listen to the people. And the only response to the Chinese government I think we really have to be united together as one community to fight against these erosions of the democratic system. And also, because they are not a lot of celebrities who have chosen to speak up. And so on that aspect, I think that I have to do whatever I can to get the word out into the international world.

RB: This is certainly not the first time that China has been accused of human rights violations. What difference do you think that your message will make?

DH: Well, obviously, I think it might not do a big difference within the United Nations because China they have a very powerful influence on many of the countries who are in the United Nations. So I think the international press they could see these delegates trying to stop someone from speaking the truth. And that is something that is powerful in itself.

RB: The Chinese delegation had a chance to reply to your 90-second statement today. And when it did, the delegate said that the Chief Executive of Hong Kong Carrie Lam has put this bill on pause in order to listen more. Does that give you any sort of hope?

DH: No, because this is not a legal term in the Legislative Council. You can withdraw it or you can postpone it. But there is no such thing as a suspension in the very legal terms. So as Hong Kong says no, the Hong Kong government really love to use word tactics. And to just basically to postpone things and to try to pitch it again when the crowds get more calmed down. But this is not working anymore this time because we have been tricked enough. And, as you can see, the protests have been going on ever since June 9^th — and it's still going strong. We had 200,000 people on the streets just yesterday. And so I believe this is going to be a very long fight. And for Hong Kong, it is up to us to make it into a very sustainable fight because it's not only about one extradition bill. It is about all the frustration of the Hong Kong people with all autonomy and our freedoms not being respected.

RB: Earlier in the interview, you said you are a target for them — meaning a target for the Chinese. Do you fear for your life?

DH: That is not something that I would think about too much. I worry a lot about Hong Kong people's future. We can see people being arrested for no reason in Hong Kong. Also, we had four suicides within these two weeks because of the despair that the Hong Kong government is bringing onto the people. So I think in these aspects, I am willing to continue to fight on for the Hong Kong people as long as I have the platform and voice for that. And if any personal risks and threats, I am ready to come forward against that.

RB: Denise Ho, thank you very much for your time today.

DH: No, thank you, Robyn. Thank you so much.

RB: Bye-bye.

DH: Bye-bye.

MY: Denise Ho is a Hong Kong-based singer and a pro-democracy and LGBTQ rights activist. Today she spoke in front of the UN's Human Rights Council in Geneva, Switzerland — which is where we reached her. And you can find more on that story on the "As It Happens" website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

FOA: Vodkow

MY: For a while there, the federal government was lactose-intolerant. Last year, Omid McDonald came on As It Happens to talk about his new drink. He called it "Vodkow" — a liquor made from cow's milk, in Almonte, Ontario. But at the time, he wasn't allowed to label his drink "vodka". Under government regulations, you could only call something "vodka" if it was made from potato or cereal grain. Now, those regulations have changed. Vodka can legally be made from a longer list of ingredients — including fruits, honey...and milk. Omid McDonald told the CBC in Ottawa that he's "ecstatic" about the change — and is making new labels for his product, which now falls under vodka on the LCBO's website. Here's some of Carol's interview with Mr. McDonald in 2018, in which he explains what his drink tastes like.

SOUNDCLIP

OM: Imagine a standard vodka but with absolutely no burn and a sweet smell and a caramelly finish.

CO: What do you mean no burn?

OM: I don't know if were a big vodka drinker back in your college days but vodka often have a acetone sort of taste to it, which many people don't like and when you drink it it burns going down but ours has none of that. It's a very smooth experience.

CO: So what does it look like? Does It look like milk?

OM: Oh no, it's completely clear just like a vodka. We distill it to 94 per cent alcohol purity and then dilute it with spring water to bring it to 40 per cent alcohol. So you could mix it with all your favourite cocktails but what people are telling us is that it's good to sip on its own, which is pretty rare in a vodka.

MY: That was Dairy Distillery owner Omid McDonald, speaking with Carol last October.

[Music: Indie rock]

FOA: Curry bird

MY: The staff at Tiggywinkles Wildlife Hospital have decided to call him "Vinny". "Vinny" is short for "vindaloo". Which seems like a weird name for a seagull -- unless you've seen the photos the Aylesbury, U.K. veterinary team has put up on Facebook. Their post reads, quote, "This bright orange herring gull was rescued by kind members of the public who spotted him at the side of the A41. He had somehow gotten himself covered in curry. It was all over his feathers, preventing him from flying. We have no idea how he got into this predicament." Unquote. Well, we have an idea of how Vinny got into his spicy situation. That comes straight from the As It Happens archives. From June 2016, here's veterinary nurse Lucy Kells of Tewksbury, England with the colorful tale of the seagull they called "Gullfrazie".

SOUNDCLIP

LUCY KELLS: The smell hit us before we even opened the box. You could really smell him. And then we opened the box and everyone was very, very shocked because they’re such a white bird normally, and of course, he was bright orange.

CO: And when you say the smell. What did he smell like?

LK: It’s the wrong thing to say, but he actually smelt delicious. He really did. He just smelt of a really good Indian takeaway.

CO: Oh dear! the last thing a bird wants to do is smell like dinner.

LK: No, exactly.

CO: How did this seagull fall into a vat of curry?

LK: Well, it's a vat of waste curry that they'd thrown out. And I think because he's so thin, and he was desperately looking for food, he's perched on the side of it. And their feet aren't really designed for perching, and I think he just went headfirst into the vat.

CO: What did you do to get the tropical orange colour out of him?

LK: Well, he actually had quite a hot shower. And we massaged him with washing up liquid. It was quite amazing. It came off very easily. It stained our skin a lot worse.

CO: And why did you name him"Gullfrazie?"

LK: Well, there’s Jalfrezi, isn't there? It’s an Indian dish. So they just thought Gullfrazie was a play-on words really.

MY: From June 2016 that was veterinary nurse Lucy Kells speaking to Carol from Tewksbury, England.

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June 8, 2019 episode transcript

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