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The AIH Transcript for July 5, 2019

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Karen Gordon

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello I'm Susan Bonner.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

SB: Unsafe hands. Norwegian politician Svein Ludvigsen was considered a champion for vulnerable youth. Now he's headed to prison for sexually abusing three young asylum seekers.

KG: The moment of truth. After weeks of unrest and violence, civilian and military leaders in Sudan reach a deal they say will ease tensions. But our guest wants the military to ease her mind about its credibility.

SB: Intruder alert. Alberta's Premier announces an inquiry into foreign funding of anti-Alberta energy campaigns. But a Greenpeace strategist says Jason Kenney's real goal is to silence dissent.

KG: Amazing grace. Eve Kor was one of the only members of her family to survive Auschwitz. And she spent the rest of her life advocating forgiveness for those who committed Nazi atrocities.

SB: Inside tracks. Years ago someone called the Philadelphia university to report a whole bunch of unclaimed tapes from a legendary local label. And tonight you'll hear some of the mysteries researchers have unlocked.

KG: And watching the fur fly. Her species is known for traveling great distances -- but unlike her fluffy colleagues, one arctic fox traveled 3,500 kilometres from Norway to Canada in just 76 days with researchers tracking her all the way. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that figures that's just different strokes for different fox.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Norway lawmaker who sexually abused asylum seekers hid behind 'do-gooder' reputation: advocate

Norway Refugee Abuse

Guest: Ann-Magrit Austena

KG: He was one of Norway's most prominent politicians, and an advocate for vulnerable children. But now former cabinet minister Svein Ludvigsen has been sentenced to five years in prison for sexually abusing three young men who were seeking asylum in Norway. Ann-Magrit Austena has been following the case closely. She's the Secretary General of the Norwegian Organization for Asylum Seekers. We reached her in Oslo.

SB: Ms. Austena many details of these cases have not been made public, but what do we know about these three young victims and how they first came into contact with Mr. Ludvigsen?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: We know that they came to Norway as unaccompanied minors asylum seekers. And it was of course Mr. Ludvigsen (who) was responsible for the legal representatives and the guardians of unaccompanied minors and others in need of guardianship or legal representatives -- that he got in touch with them.

SB: What do we know about how he abused these three young men?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: We know that the relationship started with him showing interest: visiting them, being kind to them, doing favors for them, inviting them in his car for a car trip to his cabin, and help them in different ways. One of them -- he helped to get a job. And then it developed into him starting to asking favors or coercing them into doing sexual favors for him.

SB: How old were these three when they first came to Norway?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: They were under 18 -- and the youngest one was 17 when the sexual abuse started.

SB: Before this case broke, what kind of reputation did Svein Ludvigsen have in Norway?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: Ludvigsen was a prominent figure. He had been Minister of Fisheries. He had been a member of parliament. And he was known to be a do-gooder and a person that was especially interested in the situation and the care for children and the vulnerable.

SB: What would this kind of attention have meant to these three young men?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: It meant that they were in a very unhealthy relationship with him and they had in different ways become dependent on him. And he had told them of his influence -- his friends in government, and the power he had. He had told them lies that he was actually able to decide whether or not they could stay in Norway. So they had a lot to fear from not playing along with him. And they ended up pleasing him in a way that was harmful to them because they were too afraid of the consequences.

SB: And how do you think his reputation as a do-gooder -- to use your words -- had an effect on his ability to get away with this?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: I think this is the main reason that he got away with it for so long. So in the beginning, people at the reception centres and in the housing of these young men didn't react. And then they started reacting. But they did not whistle-blow on him just because he had this charisma and this aura of being a do-gooder.

SB: Were people afraid that these young men wouldn't be believed?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: Yes absolutely. And from what I understand from the testimonies that have been given and how reluctant they have been -- the two of them -- of stepping forward and actually taking part in this case. They were very much afraid that they would not be believed and that they would end up being thrown out of Norway.

SB: It's interesting how his reputation played such an important role in this story. Norway itself has an international reputation as a champion for human rights. What does this case tell you about how young migrants coming to Norway are treated?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: They are among the most vulnerable that come to Norway. I would say the most vulnerable group. And they're also the group that have experienced the most restrictive measures in policies over the last year -- from 2008 until now. So these groups, they are not taken care of by childcare. They're taken care of by the immigration service, and they're not followed up the same way as other minors in Norway. So I hope that this case is exceptional in the way of misuse of power. But I'm afraid that other unaccompanied minors also are being misused just because they are so vulnerable and they have so few that they actually can trust and relate to. Until they have settled truly and are integrated within the process they are easy targets.

SB: Have there been other cases?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: There have been some cases of women. Older women coming in as sort of an aunt or mother role or something to young unaccompanied male refugees. And it has developed into an unhealthy relationship where they have sexually abused them.

SB: What do you think needs to change to provide better protection to young asylum seekers?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: I think until they reach the age of 18, they should be in childcare along with other minors. And then we need to strengthen the legal representatives and the guardianship of them so that they can be followed up in a better way than what they are today.

SB: And how likely is that kind of policy change to take place?

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: It's hard now because Norway as many other countries in Europe has only the present government and the majority in parliament has only been focused on stricter measures -- having fewer asylum seekers and refugees coming to our country and stricter policies. So it will not be easy but I think this case is a cruel example of how vulnerable some of these people coming to Norway are.

SB: Ms. Austena thank you very much.

ANN-MAGRIT AUSTENA: Thank you.

KG: Ann-Magrit Austena is the Secretary General of the Norwegian Organization for Asylum Seekers. We reached her in Oslo. And there's more on that story on the As It Happens website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Jason Kenney Pipeline Audit

Guest: Keith Stewart

KG: Jason Kenney believes his province has been the victim of a plot. Yesterday, Alberta's United Conservative premier announced a public inquiry that will investigate foreign funding of all opposition to the pipeline -- and oil and gas development. He wants the inquiry to look into amongst other things something Mr. Kenney called “The Tarsands Campaign."

SOUNDCLIP

JASON KENNEY: "The Tarsands Campaign" was launched in 2008 with the express goal of shutting down investment, development, and export of energy from Alberta's oil sands. It is financed by multi-billion dollar U.S. foundations like the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. Its main tactics have been disinformation, and defamation, litigation, public protests, and political lobbying. It enlisted and financed dozens of Canadian and American interest groups to execute these activities including the Tides Foundation and its Canadian subsidiary Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, the World Wildlife Fund, the Pembina Institute, Environmental Defense, and Leadnow -- amongst many others.

KG: That was Alberta Premier Jason Kenney speaking yesterday in Calgary. Keith Stewart is a senior energy strategist for Greenpeace Canada. We reached him in Toronto.

SB: Mr. Stewart are foreign funded special interests using Greenpeace to shut down Alberta's oil and gas industry?

KEITH STEWART: No. A lot of this is -- it makes for great politics and theatre. But you have to face the fact that first of all fossil fuel projects are facing opposition everywhere. This isn't something that just happens in Canada or just in Alberta. Every pipeline in North America basically is being opposed -- every coal plant around the world. And the idea that somehow getting funding from foundations is nefarious is ridiculous. Like these foundations work globally. And for the Canadian groups involved, it's a tiny portion of our revenue. For Greenpeace, I think it maxed out at about 5 percent of revenue. I mean 85 percent of our money for Greenpeace Canada comes from small monthly donations from Canadians. Similarly for other groups you know it's a portion of their resources. But the idea that somehow there's this shadowy conspiracy -- you know it's basically laughable but it makes for good politics I think.

SB: Well Premier Kenney describes a meeting in 2008 that Greenpeace and other Canadian environmental groups attended in New York with funders of what he calls "The Tarsands Campaign." Did Greenpeace attend that meeting?

KS: So we were at that meeting that I think he's referring to, and indeed I believe there is actually a press release at the end of it and a joint letter signed by the executive directors of many different organizations which addressed tar sands but also a variety of biodiversity in Great Lakes and other things as well. This is not at all uncommon. The idea that environmentalists get together, compare notes, trying to work together where we can sort of be more effective that way...this is just common practice and they were painting it as some kind of secret conspiracy. But Greenpeace -- we dropped banners to tell 'see what we're talking about' -- we're not hiding what we're doing. And you know you don't usually put out a press release about a meeting you're trying to hide.

SB: The premier has acknowledged that there's nothing illegal about foreign investment --foreign funding -- of Canadian environmental groups, but he says that it's time to shine what he calls a sterilising light on foreign influence. So what impact could this inquiry -- which is going to be led by a forensic auditor -- what real impact could it have on environmental groups in this country?

KS: So the premier is clearly trying to silence and intimidate his critics. He actually said in a press conference yesterday it doesn't matter you know for lawsuits -- it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, it's about making environmental groups pay a lot for lawyers and making them think very carefully about what they say or do. This is a bully tactic. And he was pretty honest about that actually. He's hoping to intimidate people concerned about climate change into silence. And that is just not going to work. We may end up having to pay a bunch of money for lawyers that would be better spent on climate solutions. I can't believe you know the people of Alberta are putting in 30 million dollars for this war room that's going to you know engage in social media attacks and you know two and a half million dollars for this inquiry. It's a lot of money -- it makes for great politics. But if you compare that sort of theatricality to the deadly seriousness of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report which just came out saying you know we've got to start moving off of fossil fuels right now, we need to reduce emissions about half by 2030 -- in that kind of a world which we see only really livable one for us and for our kids there's no rule for expansion of fossil fuels. We need to be planning for the transition off of them -- not imagining that somehow we can continue to expanding them for decades to come.

SB: Then is your biggest fear simply that the costs that you may have to lay out to these lawyers?

KS: So I think that's always a problem. You know you don't want to be spending money on lawyers when you could be spending it on more useful things. I think also Greenpeace is -- you know we're frankly a lot more robust than many other organizations in being able to deal with these kinds of threats, we face them all around the world everywhere we work. I think the bigger threat is he's trying to intimidate the charities. Greenpeace Canada is not a charity. He's threatening to use charitable law to sort of get their charity status revoked. When he's attacking groups like the Pembina Institute which frankly is a very mainstream group -- I mean they get a big chunk of their money by doing consulting work for the oil and gas companies, they work very constructively with government with industry on solutions -- you know when you're painting the Pembina Institute as radicals, you're really making a reach and what you're saying is 'don't say anything or we will use the full power of our government to crush you.' And you know for Greenpeace, we're used to that. For many other groups, they're not.

SB: You mentioned charities -- that's a bit of a sensitive spot for charities because they feel that they were attacked in the past by audit threats from the Canada Revenue Agency on their political activities.

KS: Well when Jason Kenney was a federal minister in the Harper government you know they launched forensic audits of 12 environmental groups. And that means you've got auditors sitting in your office watching everything you do. You're spending a vast amount of money on lawyers. You know there's a huge drain on your resources. And this was all entirely appropriate. These are groups dedicated to protecting the climate. Surprise. They say we should take action to defend the climate and transition off of fossil fuels. But it was basically -- it had a chill effect for a lot of these groups where they were spending so much effort on trying to deal with the audits because you legally have to that they were less able to do other important work. And I think you know that's what Jason Kenney is trying to replicate here.

SB: Well the provisions that allowed for those audits have been reversed by the federal Liberals. Now Mr. Kenney is suggesting it might be time for them to be brought back. What's your response to that?

KS: What I heard reading between the lines was Jason Kenney was saying if Andrew Scheer becomes prime minister then we will get the law changed and we will revoke your charitable status. I mean he admitted that the current law doesn't allow that type of action he is entertaining. You know this report doesn't come for a year -- that will be with the new government. And I think basically he's signalling that if there's a Conservative victory that law could change.

SB: Mr. Stewart thank you.

KS: Thank you.

KG: Keith Stewart is a senior energy strategist for Greenpeace Canada. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Lost Funk Band Records

Guest: Toby Seay

KG: It probably happens all the time: someone calls a university music department and says she's found a bunch of tapes, and the department gets a hold of them and they're just one amateur sax player practicing "Careless Whisper" for hours at a time. Well this call was different. This call to the music department at Drexel University came from a storage facility in Philadelphia. There were thousands of tapes at the facility and they came from the city's well-known Sigma Sound Studios. Over the last decade-plus, staff and students at Drexel have been combing through that music collection. They're not even close to getting through all of it. But this year the university helped release a new album by the band Nat Turner Rebellion. It's the band's first ever release -- even though the songs were recorded decades ago at Sigma Sound Studios. At the time the band's label put out singles, but never a full album. And many of the tracks on this year's release have never been heard. Toby Seay is a professor of music production at Drexel University. We reached him in San Diego, California.

SB: Mr. Seay what has it been like for you to see these songs by the Nat Turner Rebellion finally get out into the world?

TOBY SEAY: Well this is kind of a dream for any archivist in having materials that can then be used -- you know a lot of times you think of archival stuff sitting in a shelf and just being safe for no apparent reason, and here you have this wonderful music that surprisingly hasn't been heard much other than in the small collectors market. So for me, it's a joy to be able to bring this out to light and have the world be able to hear this work that was incredibly well done. It just didn't get through the politics of a record label at the time.

SB: Why weren't these tracks released in the late 60s and early 70s when they were recorded?

TS: Well I think when you look at the label that did -- the Philly Groove label -- at the time their first hit record was The Delfonics. I feel like that was the direction the label wanted to do. They were competing against Gamble and Huff and all those soul records. And here you had a group like the Nat Turner Rebellion which was more like Sly Stone. There were much more of a funk based band and the label kind of wanted to turn them into The Delfonics. So you could see in the music -- on this album -- it kind of goes back and forth as they try this direction, they try that direction, and they never came to a consensus.

SB: Can you tell me about the name The Nat Turner Rebellion -- where does that come from?

TS: So it's named after a famous slave revolt of 1831 that happened in Virginia. Now Joe Jefferson who started the band is from Virginia. So this is a cultural event that the world knows as this uprising -- now it was a horrible outcome and many many deaths, but in the same sense it is representative of the black struggle in America. So for in 1969 a band to name themselves after that event not only that but Joe Jefferson went on stage as Nat Turner -- it was an interesting statement at the time. And you know they weren't really confrontational and in your face kind of a band. But they started the conversation that way which I think was fascinating.

SB: Well one of the songs on the first Nat Turner Rebellion tape that you listened to was called Tribute To A Slave. Let's listen together to the first 30 seconds.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: The Nat Turner Rebellion's "Tribute To A Slave"]

SB: What did you think when you first heard that song?

TS: Well that song -- and that was the first song I heard of the collection -- you know this "my friend Nat" line where you know they're invoking the spirit. You know it's obvious that Nat Turner is a representative of the struggle that black Americans were going through. My favorite line in the song though is "you might be here with us in the midst of all this fuss." That to me just kind of hooked me to that song right then and there.

SB: An NPR reviewer looking at the album says it's all over the map stylistically. Do you think this album would have ever made it to the shelves back when it was recorded?

TS: No. I really don't because they were really trying -- the label -- trying to find their way. The band was trying to find you know a place where both sides were happy. And so you end up with songs that you know they are all over the map. I think retrospectively 50 years later than that now tells another story that wouldn't have been a commercial thing at the time. But now for us from an archival point of view does paint an interesting story of this ensemble and it makes you think of like how many other stories just like that are sitting on shelves in archives.

SB: Well what other artists of significance recorded at Sigma Sound Studios?

TS: Well Sigma was the seat of basically the Philly soul sound -- the sound of Philadelphia, so all of those Gamble and Huff hits. You got Patti LaBelle and Teddy Pendergrass and The Delfonics and The Stylistics. You know even David Bowie came and recorded there wanting that sound to kind of rub off because the amount of work and the lush sound that came out of their at the time was so compelling. So it was the major output of music from Philadelphia in the 70s and 80s.

SB: Your university received 7000 tapes from this storage facility. How much do you think you've made your way through?

TS: Well we've kind of arranged and described most of it. So we kind of know what is sitting on the shelves. But as far as digitization and playback and actually examining the contents...less than 10 percent.

SB: You've got a lot of work ahead of you.

TS: A lot of work.

SB: Any more treasures you expect to find? Any more treasures hiding in that collection?

TS: Yeah I do. I mean I have five things right now that I feel are primed and ready just like the Nat Turner project. We don't know which one is going to be the one that gets sent out next. But yeah, we have a lot of unreleased material.

SB: Well I look forward to hearing it. And I enjoyedt talking to you. Thanks so much.

TS: Thank you very much.

KG: That was music production professor Toby Seay in San Diego, California.

[Music]

Part 2: Sudanese activist says new deal gives too much power to forces behind deadly crackdown

Sudan Agreement

Guest: Dallia

KG: Sudan's protesters have seen this show before. But today's announcement of an agreement between civilian and military leaders has given people a moment of hopeful pause. The two sides -- a civilian umbrella group and the country's military council -- agreed to share power for just over three years until elections are held in the country. It comes a month after a bloody coup crackdown by the country's Rapid Support Forces which led to more than 128 deaths. And while there was celebration last night in some parts of Khartoum, not everyone is so enthusiastic. Dallia is a Sudanese protester who we've spoken to before on As It Happens. We're not sharing her last name for her safety. We reached her in Khartoum.

SB: Dallia how are you feeling today about this agreement that's been signed between the military and civilian leaders?

DALLIA: Cautiously optimistic but still not completely trusting the military command because they have to prove themselves to us for us to completely trust them. I am being slightly optimistic that they did reach an agreement because until a few weeks ago it looked like there was no chance of any agreement being reached. We'll still keep a beady eye on the military council. And we'll wait and see until they sign and then what the next steps they'll be taking and how they'll go about out. How they go about taking those steps.

SB: What parts of the agreement worries you?

DALLIA: Two things. Number one, the fact that it's the military council that will take over the leadership of the presidential council at first for 18 months -- when I think it should have been the opposite, it should have been the civilian who should be leading the country from the start. And the second point, no mention of the Janjaweed militia or the Rapid Support Forces -- what's going to happen to them? Are they going to be incorporated into the army? Will they be sent back to the west? What's their role now? Are they still going to be on the streets of Khartoum? You know there's still a lot of questions that they haven't fully answered but I'm not holding my breath for that.

SB: Let's start with the fact that the military will still be in the lead control for close to two years in this new agreement. What risk is there that this will consolidate military power and that they will just become more powerful, more emboldened in the country?

DALLIA: Yeah the risk is there because I mean what guarantee do they offer us or any guarantees that they will leave when they say they will. They can you know buy more armory -- more weaponry. They can you know not get rid of all the entities of the former regime and that they actually make them stronger. So there are no guarantees. And no guarantee has been offered. And at this moment in time, the only power that the Coalition has is the power of the people. A lot of us are still not sure about this agreement and we're waiting to hear more. And just like a few hours ago, I received notice that some of the leaders from the Coalition are planning on holding public talks in various neighbourhoods in the capital. They will answer any questions that come up and so on. So this is really important so we can go and ask them directly. We don't need to wait for another statement to be released and then hopefully there will be some answers provided.

SB: You mentioned the Rapid Support Forces -- and indications are that General Mohamed Hamdan also known as "Hemedti" who leads those forces behind the bloody crackdown that killed more than 100 pro-democracy protesters, that he will play a role in this new government. What does that say to you?

DALLIA: Honestly that's just a slap in the face. It's not just a slap in the face for what happened on June 3rd, it's a slap in the face for also the victims of what happened in Darfur several years ago. I mean this guy is a militia man. He's a warlord. And the fact that he's moved up and his now part of a government is just unbelievable.

SB: Do you think that there was too much pressure on civilian leaders to make this deal with protests dragging on for months and you know this horrific attack in June that killed so many -- was the civilian coalition under too much pressure to make a deal?

DALLIA: Yes and no. I mean there's always pressure. Definitely there was pressure from the street. But the pressure from the street was more as in 'stand your ground or fight for this' because at the end of the day the people still stood by the Coalition. There's always pressure because they have the pressure to deliver to the people, to deliver the promises that they made. And I also think that there was pressure from the outside parties (which) played a role like the African Union and the American envoy. And did they buckle under the pressure? I don't know. Or maybe they felt that they needed to do an agreement to avoid any more bloodshed and by delivering this agreement it will be like a stepping stone in the right direction.

SB: What concerns do you have about the civilian coalition's experience and their ability to get this right?

DALLIA: The bickering -- bickering amongst each other. In a way the lack of experience. They've gone from being the opposition to being the main partner in the agreement.

SB: How concerned are you that the military could exploit the infighting, the bickering, and the inexperience of the civilian coalition?

DALLIA: Oh they started already. I mean even before this agreement was made we kept hearing all these rumors that oh my god the coalition doesn't know it's doing. But the good thing is the coalition has always been steadfast and it's always been open -- the dialogue between them and the people has always been there. They've never gone silent on us so to speak. They've always been available. And if need be, we will gather up our strength again and then go out again in mass protest if the occasion arises or the situation calls for it.

SB: This has been like I guess living in a political tinderbox since April. What kind of a toll has this taken on you and on the people you know?

DALLIA: It's mentally exhausting. I mean literally every conversation you have with anyone it just revolves around the situation out in the country. We have no other topics of discussion. Hearing rumors and trying to assert whether they're true or not you know not having internet. The internet blackout has really also played the big part. So there's more face-to-face meetings with people. But people are tired. I mean there is mental exhaustion -- it is a big thing. And we've been protesting since December. So we're entering into our seven month of protests now. So it's not an easy thing. And especially when you're facing the might of the military and we have nothing. All we have is our belief in nonviolent resistance. But I have to say the resilience that I've seen from so many people even if you have doubts -- those doubts disappear and you gain strength from their resilience and you continue and then you remember all those who lost their lives fighting and defending what we've all been protesting for. And you realize that you know we owe it to them. We can't just let their deaths be in vain.

SB: Dallia thank you very much.

DALLIA: Thank you for having me.

KG: Dallia is a Sudanese protester. We're protecting her full identity for her safety. We reached her in Khartoum.

[Music]

Ben Makuch

KG: "It looks like this is the end." That's part of Vice reporter Ben Makuch's statement, after news that his long fight to keep his notes out of police hands was over. For years, the RCMP has demanded to see Mr. Makuch's correspondence with one of his sources -- a suspected Islamic State terrorist. He and Vice tried four times to fight the order. Yesterday, they lost again in Ontario Superior Court. The journalist posted a statement to Twitter thanking Vice for its unwavering support and calling out the RCMP for its, quote, "unfair and troubling treatment." Back in 2015 Carol spoke to Mr. Makuch about why he was fighting so hard.

SOUNDCLIP

BEN MAKUCH: Under press freedoms, we obviously find this to be a gross violation of a journalist's work. I mean it's not something that's good for the public if a source in the future is afraid to talk to a journalist because any information that we have can be turned over to the police. So we will be fighting it. And right now it's still in my possession. I have no interest thus far or in the future to be giving this up to the RCMP. And we'll be exhausting every legal avenue we can in order to stop that from happening.

CAROL OFF: What might be the consequences for you?

BEN MAKUCH: I mean if it went really south and I was charged with contempt of court, I could be fined or I could be given jail time.

CAROL OFF: Has your lawyer told you that you could actually go to jail if you continue to protect the source?

BEN MAKUCH: Yes. Which has been something that you know has weighed heavily on me since I've known about this. And that's why it's been important that it gets out into the public and the people know about it because this is fairly unprecedented in Canada. Now do I think I'm going to go to jail? I don't think so -- I hope not. I'd like to think that the Canadian court system will find a way around it. But yes my lawyer knows it's a possibility.

CAROL OFF: So why should it be in the public interest that you protect a source that threatens to harm people?

BEN MAKUCH: Well for me, any source who comes to me confidentially I'm going to protect in any way. But to me this isn't really about so much source protection as it is about protecting the rights of journalists and their notes and their investigative tools because if we start to become the investigative arm to the police then that means essentially anytime something comes up where the police decide that they want a journalist to come to them and give them information it can be forcibly done. But more so what we have to remember is that we're news gatherers. If sources are afraid to come to us because we'll give information that they've given us to the police, it's going to seriously hinder how we do our job and how the fifth estate operates.

KG: That was VICE News reporter Ben Makuch speaking with Carol on As It Happens in 2015. Yesterday, Mr. Makuch and Vice announced they will comply with the RCMP's request to hand over correspondence with a source.

[Music]

Arctic Fox Tracker

Guest: Arnaud Tarroux

KG: 3,500 kilometres is a long journey. However you get from A to B. A flight will take you at least a few hours. And a drive will take you much longer. But last year, a young female Arctic blue fox walked that distance from northern Norway to Canada. Now these foxes are known to travel long distances -- but it's the young fox's speed making the journey that surprised the scientists tracking it. Arnaud Tarroux is one of those researchers. He's a biologist with the Norwegian Institute for Nature Research. We reached him in Longyearbyen in Norway.

SB: Mr. Tarroux how many days did it take for this Arctic fox to travel from your country in Norway to mine here in Canada?

ARNAUD TARROUX: It took about 76 days from the moment it left Spitsbergen -- an island in this our archipelago -- to reach Ellesmere Island in Nunavut in Canada.

SB: And at its fastest, what distance was this fox traveling per day?

AT: Per day it was travelling at least 150 kilometres -- 155 is what we measured. But of course there are errors in our data. So around the 150 kilometre a day.

SB: That's pretty fast.

AT: It's very fast. Actually it's much faster than what had been measured previously in this species. Previously we had the 112 km a day as a record. So it's extremely fast. I don't think that can go much faster than that.

SB: So what were you thinking when you were watching this fox move so quickly on your tracking device?

AT: So when we started observing this movement -- it's important to know that we can't observe these movements almost in real time, like with maybe 24 hour lag. So we saw the movements from the very beginning but of course we didn't know where it was heading and what he would do. So we're like very suspicious and like wondering if it would be maybe an artifact in the data or an error. So we just waited and hoped that it was real and then we realized that the fox was just going on the ice actually. So there was no other possibility than being the fox itself going on the ice and not like for example a human being collecting the collar and travelling with it or something like that.

SB: Can you take us back to the beginning and tell us how this little fox's journey began? Where was the Fox first tagged?

AT: So the first position of this fox was in Kongsfjorden it is a huge fjord in western Spitsbergen and that's where the fox was captured and outfitted with the collar. And the fox stayed there actually for several months before it started to move. So the fox was tied in July or August 2017 and stayed until March before it started to move around. And when it started to move around in the archipelago it really didn't manage to go to find the ice in the first go. So it was just going from shore to shore and finding open sea. And apparently it was trying to leave and then at one point decided to go straight east and then found sea ice and could continue walking on the sea ice.

SB: What was motivating the fox to take this incredible journey?

AT: It's a very good question. We don't have a definitive answer to that question. But the most likely is that it's related to food resources so the amount of food available in the area where the fox was born and maybe a mix of that and of competition with other foxes. So all the young foxes that are born in a given year of course have to establish a new territory. They can't stay on the territory of their parents. So depending on the amount of other foxes -- young foxes that are in the area it may be more or less difficult for them to find and secure a territory where they have enough food and where they can find a den and eventually have a family.

SB: Did the fox take any breaks along the way?

AT: The fox took several breaks along the way but two of them are really noticeable because they occurred on the sea ice and just a few days apart. Actually it was in April when the fox was travelling between Svalbard and Greenland and was really in the middle of the sea ice so far from everything -- far offshore. And it stopped twice for about 48 hours and we don't really know why it did that. It could be because it found food -- for example field carcasses left by polar bears that it could scavenge on. Or it could be because there was a storm and it needed to find shelter and wait until the storm had passed. This we don't know for sure but this happened twice. And then when it reached Greenland and Ellesmere of course it's been taking some breaks on the way and probably found some food there as well and stopped for some days in like limited areas.

SB: Is it possible it was just tired from all that travelling?

AT: It is very hard to say because even when they are in a very small area they still keep moving all the time. That's what we observe here in the field when we see them. It's just that these animals are just walking all the time almost all the time. It's incredible. They are really really strong and endurant. Of course they sleep and rest. But it's very amazing to see them. So even if it's just a few square kilometres they are still patrolling it daily and intensively. So they walk a lot anyway.

SB: What are the big lessons that you've learned from this tracking research?

AT: Well first of all we can be surprised even when we think we know something about a species like we thought we had measured the fastest movement rate for example for Arctic foxes and that suddenly we find a fox that can do almost 50 percent higher than what had been previously measured. So we can always be surprised. And the second thing is that I think the sea ice -- it's not really a surprise but it shows it really stresses how important the sea ice is for Arctic species especially species that can't fly or swim like arctic foxes, polar bears -- [inaudible] not swimming over long distances. So the sea ice is a pretty important habitat. It's a bridge between islands in the Arctic and many species use it and need it.

SB: Well it's an incredible story. Good luck with your research.

AT: Thank you very much and thank you for having me today.

KG: Arnaud Tarroux is one of the authors of a report on an Arctic fox's 3,500 kilometre journey from Norway to Canada. It was published in the journal Polar Research. We reached Mr. Tarroux in Longyearbyen, Norway.

[Music]

Eva Kor

KG: In 1944, 10-year-old Eva Kor was deported from her home in Romania to a regional Jewish ghetto with her family. A few weeks later they were sent to Auschwitz. There, Eva and her sister Miriam were selected for medical experiments at the hands of the notorious Nazi physician Josef Mengele. They were the only members of their family to survive the war. Eva Kor died yesterday on one of her annual education trips back to Auschwitz where her family was killed. She was 85-years-old. In 2015, Ms. Kor attended the German trial of former SS guard Oskar Groning, known as the book-keeper of Auschwitz. He was found guilty as an accessory to the 300,000 murders in the camp where Ms. Kor's family died. But in an interview at the time, Ms. Kor said she was prepared to forgive him. From our archives, here's Eva Kor in conversation with As It Happens guest host Dave Seglins.

SOUNDCLIP

EVA KOR: A Nazi who is willing to bear witness to what happened, a Nazi who is willing to take responsibility for his actions is somebody that I appreciate in spite of the fact that he was a Nazi -- opposed to people who say it didn't happen, there is a big difference. I want him to -- as long as he has the ability, physically -- to go into schools, bear witness, talk about the fact that he was in Auschwitz, and appeal to all young people to never ever want to have a regime like that, not to become neo-Nazis because that is a deep problem in Germany right now.

DAVE SEGLINS: He responded. He reached out to you.

EVA KOR: Well as I was trying to tell him what to do, suddenly he grabbed me and pulled me toward him and gave me a kiss on my -- I think it was left or right cheek...I was stunned. But there was nothing wrong with it. What is the ultimate act of caring for somebody or loving somebody -- I prefer a loving gesture over a hateful gesture any time.

DAVE SEGLINS: But this is the man or one of the men who is accused of being a guard at Auschwitz where members of your family perished. What are you thinking when he kisses you?

EVA KOR: I said that this was an old man who was very remorseful for what happened and he wanted to show me that he really cared about me as a human being and that to me is a very big plus over somebody. Now I know that if I would have spit on him or done something ugly like that the world would understand it and they would applaud me. But where does it leave me with that? Does it make me a good person? What does it make me when I am acting revengeful or spiteful? So what do we do -- my question to survivors, to society, to reporters, to everybody is what is it that we want today to do with all the Nazi and Holocaust tragedy?

DAVE SEGLINS: Let me ask you to answer that question Oskar Groning has told the court that he accepts his moral guilt. Is that enough for you?

EVA KOR: Yes.

DAVE SEGLINS: What about his legal guilt?

EVA KOR: So let's say that they find him legally guilty. What are they going to do to him? The legal responsibility is only for attorneys and for judicial systems. And personally, I don't think that there is such a real true word as justice. It's an empty word that is being dangled in front of victims and they think once the perpetrator quote unquote is brought to justice that the victims are going to feel wonderful and that is incorrect.

DAVE SEGLINS: So do you forgive Oskar Groning for what he was?

EVA KOR: Yes. Absolutely. Not because he deserves it and I told him so but because I deserve it. I deserve to live free of whatever he did in Auschwitz...and I do.

KG: Holocaust survivor Eva Kor died yesterday in Poland at the age of 85. She spoke with guest host Dave Seglins on As It Happens in 2015.

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July 5, 2019 Episode Transcript

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