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The AIH Transcript for July 3, 2019

Hosts: Susan Bonner and Karen Gordon

Prologue

SUSAN BONNER: Hello I'm Susan Bonner.

KAREN GORDON: Good evening. I'm Karen Gordon. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

KG: Tonight...

SB: Stranded operating procedure. An airstrike leaves dozens dead at a migrant detention centre in Libya -- and our guest wants to know why the world is willing to leave so many people confined in the line of fire.

KG: Sentence fragment. A Navy SEAL gets no further jail time after being found guilty of posing with the corpse of an enemy soldier -- and acquitted of charges related to much more serious war crimes in Iraq.

SB: Life gave him lemons. And by convincing people to buy Chrysler cars again after convincing the U.S. government to give him a loan, the late Lee Iacocca became a legend in the auto industry.

KG: Chip shots off the old block. At 8-years-old twin golfers Freya and Mila Snook are already on fairly good on the fairway and beating their dad who introduced them to the sport is now par for the course.

SB: A get roach quick scheme. I know it's not easy to get rid of those millions of gross roommates but act now because our guest says defeating cockroaches is getting even more difficult.

KG: And...ice cream anti-social. Fed up with Instagram stars demanding free stuff from him -- the owner of a Los Angeles ice cream truck doubles prices for so-called social media influencers, because revenge is a dish best served cold and expensive. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that guesses it's no soft serve for the self-serving.

[Music]

Part 1: Detained migrants killed in Libya airstrike used as 'human shields': Doctors Without Borders

Libya Attack

Guest: Sam Turner

KG: The United Nations says the attack should be investigated as a possible war crime. Last night, an explosion tore through the barracks of a detention centre for migrants in northeastern Tripoli. One moment the men, women, and children were sleeping. Then...came the screams. Hussein Ben Attya is the mayor of the area. He told the BBC that he rushed to the camp in the aftermath. And a warning: the scene he describes is horrific.

SOUNDCLIP

HUSSEIN BEN ATTYA: I saw all the bodies thrown everywhere. Hands. Heads. Blood. Children. Woman. Man. They actually killed by this bomb. It was in the centre of this accommodation. They are all from Africa and Arab country -- Muslim, Christian. They are civilians. Some of them have been in this centre for one year or two years.

KG: As we go to air, dozens are confirmed to have died and the death toll continues to rise. Medecins Sans Frontieres has been monitoring the conditions in the camp. Their staff were there yesterday but left before last night's attack. Sam Turner is MSF's head of mission in Libya. We reached him in London.

SB: Mr. Turner what was your reaction when you heard about this airstrike?

SAM TURNER: I mean obviously it was one of complete shock and disbelief that such an abhorrent act could have been conducted once again targeting innocent civilians who are being held in detention in Libya. I say that in part because it was just two months ago that I was standing in the Tajoura detention centre following an airstrike on that compound that resulted in shrapnel tearing through the roof of the women's cell and landing about one metre from a sleeping baby on a mattress on the floor. So it's absolutely unthinkable that we've had such a catastrophic event where so many people have lost their lives and many more are injured.

SB: What have you been able to learn about what's happening on the ground there tonight?

ST: In the events of yesterday evening, MSF medical teams -- we dispatched ambulances to support the referrals of people to hospitals. Our teams had been in this very cell yesterday during the day and they had been talking to the 120 people who were detained in this cell that was directly hit by this strike. Today, we've been following up with those hospitals that have been receiving the wounded with offers of support and we have referred some of those patients to private hospitals for further care. We've also been onsite into Tajoura detention centre. We provided food and water to a large group of the people who were detained and not injured in the strike last night but are obviously extremely distressed. And we've had our mental health teams on sites to be able to provide whatever support we can to them at this time.

SB: You talked about the earlier strike on this compound. As part of this compound I understand there is a building that stores munitions. Is that why it's a target?

ST: Well the Tajoura detention centre is well known to be situated in a much larger military compound. That is clearly a major concern in terms of the ongoing fighting in and around the Tripoli area. That does appear to have been the primary motivation for a strike in the past. But since very early on in the conflict all of the GPS coordinates were shared of all of the detention centres as well as other civilian locations and key infrastructure. Those coordinates were shared with all the parties to the conflict to ensure that it was absolutely abundantly clear that these are civilian locations and should at no point be targeted by anyone in the course of the fighting.

SB: Now the U.N. recognized government in Libya is saying this was an airstrike launched by the forces of the insurgent general Khalifa Haftar. What do you think?

ST: Well it's not our job to be able to attribute and examine exactly who and what was involved in the strike itself. What is clear is that the Tajoura detention centre area is in an area controlled by those under the U.N. backed GNA government. And so that would point towards it likely being the other warring parties who were potentially involved in this.

SB: The U.N. is calling this a possible war crime. How do you see it?

ST: I mean I think it's clearly an atrocious act. At no point should civilians be targeted. It's incredibly difficult to attribute blame entirely to one side or the other. As on one hand clearly under existing international humanitarian law, civilians should never be targeted in conflict. But on the other, civilians should not be held in or around areas that may be a military target. And so you know keeping detaining people trapped against their will in a military location is akin to using them as human shields. And so there is no clarity in terms of judgment for one side or the other in this situation. But what is absolutely clear is that detainees who are trapped in these locations must urgently be evacuated and given there is no safe area within Libya for them to be moved to then that is an international humanitarian evacuation that's required.

SB: Why hasn't it happened sooner? Who do you hold responsible for the fact that these people were detained in a place that had already been hit, that was known to be dangerous, and a place from which there were cries that this had to change?

ST: The primary responsibility for the safety and the well-being of anyone who is detained rests with the authority that is detaining them. And that in this case is the government of Libya. If they are unable to provide these services or unable to assure their safety then those people must immediately be released. Now that is at the national level. But when you take a step back and look at the regional dimensions of why exactly we have people detained in such inhumane conditions in Libya we have to look at the migration context and the fact that in the last 5 to 10 years there has been a trend of people fleeing from Libya to Europe. And whether those are refugees, asylum seekers, or migrants they have all been dealt with in the same callous way by European policies that push back the borders of Europe to places such as Libya and track people there and prevent them from moving that one step closer to safety and security that they all desire.

SB: Can you tell me a little bit more about the people in this camp?

ST: The people held in Tajoura detention centre come from all walks of life and all across the world. There are many in that detention centre who come from Eritrea, from Sudan, from Ethiopia. There are some who come from West Africa, from Nigeria, from Cote d'Ivoire. But there are also some who come from further afield Syria and Bangladesh. What is very clear about the makeup of the population is that the vast majority are refugees or asylum seekers. They are people who are only there because they are fleeing war, violence, persecution in their countries of origin -- and are absolutely unable to return home. These people are entitled to international protection. And yet we have sat back and watched as they are trapped in these detention centres languishing in these inhospitable conditions that are severely damaging to both their physical and mental health.

SB: Mr. Turner thank you.

ST: Thank you very much.

KG: Sam Turner is Medecins Sans Frontieres' head of mission in Libya. We reached Mr. Turner in London.

[Music]

Lee Iacocca Obit

Guest: Catherine Whitney

KG: When it came to what you drive, Lee Iacocca was driven. He was the son of immigrants who spent almost 50 years in the auto industry where he was lauded -- mostly -- for his visionary ideas and decisive leadership. As the president of Ford, Mr. Iacocca pioneered the Mustang. And later, at Chrysler, he popularized the K-Car and minivan -- and saved the company from the brink of bankruptcy. Mr. Iacocca died yesterday. He was 94. At Chrysler, Mr. Iacocca wasn't just behind the wheel and under the hood -- he was also in front of the camera, starring in the company's commercials.

SOUNDCLIP

LEE IACOCCA: Our Chrysler LeBaron series: nobody has anything like them. Not Ford. Not GM. Not the imports. If you don't agree that the best Chrysler has ever made -- the very best America has to offer at a sensible price -- then I'm in the wrong business. Oh one more thing: if you can find a better car, buy it.

KG: Lee Iacocca also penned several bestselling books including 2007's "Where Have All the Leaders Gone" -- co-written with Catherine Whitney. We reached Ms. Whitney in New York.

SB: Catherine I'm sorry for your loss.

CATHERINE WHITNEY: Oh thank you. It's a little emotional hearing Lee's voice like that. That was the iconic ad that really brought him to the attention of Americans.

SB: Right. Well you first met Lee Iacocca in 2006. But as you point out, you and a lot of other people were aware that you were dealing with this larger than life figure. What were your first impressions of him?

CW: Yes. I mean whoever thinks that people who work in car companies as being celebrities. I mean he was a first in that respect. It didn't matter who you were, you knew who Lee Iacocca was. And when I met him in 2006, he was 82-years-old. And I walked into the room, he's sitting there smoking his Cuban cigar -- which by the way was a gift from Fidel Castro. He just maintained that personality and drive his whole life.

SB: How did he end up in the auto industry in the first place?

CW: Well after he graduated from Princeton to become an engineer he wanted to do something that was real instead of fluffy. So being in the car industry it was a natural next step to him. He loved solving problems. And that's one of the reasons he became an engineer. He loved getting in there and saying "well how can we make a car that looks good and is affordable?" Okay impossible task. When he was at Ford and he first came up with the Mustang, all the executives were saying "No. No. No. That's a terrible idea. Nobody wants this garish sexy car. They'll never be able to afford it." Well...when they produced the Mustang it was off the charts in terms of sales right from the get go.

SB: In fact they it helped Ford so much in 1978 -- the company was hugely profitable. And yet after 32 years Lee Iacocca was fired by the grandson of Henry Ford. How did he take that news?

CW: They despised each other to be frank about it. They had different ideas about the company for one thing. But Henry Ford just didn't appreciate Lee's ego and outspokenness. And so there were constant battles between them. And Lee was pretty shocked to be fired. He thought his life in the car industry was over but it just so happened that a friend of his at Chrysler called him and the transition was pretty quick.

SB: What was it that made him think that he could save Chrysler? Because Chrysler was no Ford at that point.

CW: You know he decided to go for broke basically and go to the government and ask for a loan. He managed to convince them that he could pull it off. And of course you know when you're looking at the death of a car company, the economic blow that that threatens the country with it is huge. So they guaranteed the loan and he paid back seven years early. He was very proud of that.

SB: Many people have dubbed him one of the first celebrity CEOs of his time. He wasn't just selling cars, was he? He was also selling himself. He liked being in the spotlight?

CW: He did. He loved it. He loved you know hanging out with people like Frank Sinatra. And going to you know the most glamorous parties and he loved all of that. But he mostly loved being able to you know stare into the camera and speak to the people. That clip you played was an example of how authentic he was in his appeals.

SB: Did his celebrity continue? Did you see any signs of it by the time you met him in 2006?

CW: Oh my goodness [chuckles] yes. I mean like I said he was 82, but you know we would walk down the street in New York City and you know before we could practically step onto the pavement there would be crowds of people around us. And it wasn't just because they idolized him. People would come up to him and talk about how their grandfather had worked in a Chrysler plant or their community was supported by the car industry and they had stories to tell. And he loved that. He loved that.

SB: He was a titan of an industry that at the time was so important to the American economy. But he wasn't right about everything. He wasn't right about the influx of Japanese cars and how that would affect the industry. What did he make of the sea change in the auto industry and its decline?

CW: Right. The Japanese car company threat was something that caught all of the car manufacturers in the United States by surprise. They just didn't see the fuel efficiency issue coming. But there were other problems in the way the car companies were managed. They were inefficient. And when we were writing the book it was a year or two before the collapse of the auto industry in 2008, and the big bailout. And he saw it coming and he was pretty upset by the crisis that almost brought down General Motors and Chrysler at least.

SB: When you reflect on Lee Iacocca personally what do you think he'll remember?

CW: I think I'll remember his amazing personality -- his amazing spirit. He is a little gruff you know, but he cared about people. And I'll also remember you know how many laughs we had -- (he) had a wonderful sense of humor.

SB: Well Catherine Whitney thanks for telling us about him.

CW: Thank you.

KG: Catherine Whitney is the co-author of "Where Have All the Leaders Gone" -- written with auto executive Lee Iacocca. The former head of Ford and Chrysler died yesterday. He was 94.

[Music]

Sharon Budnarchuk

KG: After half a century in the book business, one of Edmonton's most storied booksellers is retiring. Sharon Budnarchuk is the longtime co-owner of Audrey's Books. And earlier this week, she closed the book on her tenure with the independent seller. In an interview with CBC Radio's Adrienne Pan, Ms. Badnarchuk reflected on the challenges of going up against big box stores, on the ups and downs of working alongside her husband, and on one of many memorable encounters she had along the way -- including one with former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.

SOUNDCLIP

SHARON BUDNARCHUK: One of the highlights of my life: we were at the American Booksellers Convention in Miami. There were six Canadian women who were invited to have tea with her. Now she spoke to the Americans about 700 at dinner but they didn't get tea with her. [Laugher] And not only six. But she was the consummate politician. She had something to say to each of us from where we came politically. She talked a lot about the G6 that was in Canada -- in Vancouver. Would have been the time of the South African problems. And she pounded her hand on the coffee table, the tea cups rose as she said, 'Those men! They never understood that those sanctions were hurting the very people they were trying to help.' And you just wanted to be a fly on the wall to hear how she interacted with them all the time. She talked about the war in Argentina and said I had to make that decision myself, and I made it in the night. They were British and we had to do it. And she was the most single minded assured person I had ever met. Not necessarily agreed with all her politics, but she was one of those people who when she walked into a room you know she could be behind your back but you knew some aura or something had entered...

ADRIENNE PAN: She just had a presence about her.

SHARON BUDNARCHUK: Just a huge presence.

ADRIENNE PAN: Yeah.

SHARON BUDNARCHUK: Yeah.

KG: Sharon Budnarchuk retired from her work at Edmonton's oldest independent bookstore, Audrey's Books, this week. She was speaking with the CBC's Adrienne Pan.

[Music]

Ice Cream Truck Influencers

Guest: Joe Nicchi

KG: There are lots of things to dislike about so-called "social media influencers." Their use of a huge online platform to get rich by recommending often useless stuff -- for example -- their celebrations of an unattainable lifestyle and the fact that they made influencer a noun. If you run a business though it's hard to argue with their importance unless you're Joe Nicchi, owner of an ice cream truck in Los Angeles. He's arguing. More specifically, he's charging them double for ice cream. Mr. Nicchi posted a sign announcing the new policy on his truck and online where as you'd guess it went viral. We reached Joe Nicchi in Los Angeles.

SB: Joe Nicchi what prompted you to institute your influencers pay double policy?

JOE NICCHI: So we've been dealing with influencers -- we've been open for about five and a half years, and here and there we've been getting inquiries in the last couple years. We've been getting them every week. People are either emailing us for a free party or coming to the truck offering what they like to use the word of 'exposure' which is just obnoxious to me. But yeah easily once a week. I won't name names. But they will come to the truck and they'll say "Hey Joe I don't know if you know me. I'm blah blah blah." They name their Instagram handle. "I have about 50-60 thousand followers. Could you hook me up with an ice cream and I'll post about it on my story on Instagram?" Last week we got a party for 300 people requesting to do a party for them...

SB: For free!?

JN: For free. They said there were going to be plenty of influencers there with up to 10 million people of followers -- among those influencers. And I said this is crazy. And I made this sign that said "influencers pay double" and I put it out at one of our spots on Sunday which attracts quite a hipster crowd. And I posted about it on Instagram. The next thing I know, one of our followers posted it on Reddit and it made it to the front page Reddit. And then the last 24 hours have been crazy.

SB: You know we always hear that these influencers make a lot of money. They do quite well for themselves in this line of work. What do they need free ice cream for?

JN: If I had that answer to that question I probably would've never meet the sign to begin with. I do not understand.

SB: What do you think it is about your truck -- your ice cream truck -- that has made it such a target for these kinds of pitches?

JN: So we operate out of these vintage 1960s Mister Softee trucks. They have a really cool looking aesthetic, and we've created somewhat of a following in L.A. among TV and film sets -- we do a lot of catering on set. So I think people -- influencers in L.A. --are aware of our brand and they just want maybe a cool looking truck at their party as opposed to maybe a kind of rundown ice cream truck you might see at a playground or something like that. So yeah it's been going well.

SB: So you don't need any help from these influencers?

JN: I don't think so. And I don't want to sound like a jerk saying that because I mean of course any business would love to have some help. But once I realized that their influence wasn't a realistic thing where you can basically purchase followers and they are these robots that will literally add followers and likes and comments to your posts which would make you look more popular which makes you more appealing apparently to some people. So they're totally abusing the system. And I really feel for small business owners that are new and just starting out that might feel obligated to do that because they don't want to get any bad press because there's so new. So they're giving away stuff. And the exposure is going to these followers that don't even exist -- it's just fake. And my argument is why don't we make it more about the taste of the product and the service and deal with that versus the number on Instagram profile.

SB: What happened when you put up your "influencers pay double" sign outside your track? How did people react?

JN: A lot people just like took pictures and laughed at it. We got a couple of people -- I don't want to judge -- but I'm guessing they may have been influencers because they looked at it kind of irritated and they didn't say anything -- looking disgusted by it.

SB: So what did you charge them?

JN: Well they didn't get ice cream. They walked away actually. They saw it and they left.

SB: Now you are getting a lot of attention on social media for your comments and your criticism about people who are trying to get attention on social media.

JN: It's total irony. I totally understand. It's hilarious.

SB: Beyond irony -- are you trying to milk this yourself to get more business?

JN: No. I know these news stories will come and go pretty quickly so I'm just enjoying it now. I love that we're getting attention for people to hear about our business and know that we exist that don't know us. But really I'm excited to kind of expose this fraudulent activity that's going on among these people that I really don't know what they do other than post photos.

SB: So you're not just selling ice cream, you're here doing what you think is a public service?

JN: Yeah. People that are loyal followers -- that have been following us for five years --they know I always post about whenever we've got influencer requests I blackout the names but we've put screenshots of the email requests on the site. People that want to take photos of the truck in exchange for parties and all that. So it's an ongoing thing and it's just fun to get to put it out there and let people know what's going on. And they also can come and try our ice cream which I think is great.

SB: All right. Now before we let you go, I gather you have some other big news today going on in your life. Where are you right now and what are you doing?

JN: So this is absolutely crazy. My wife is pregnant with identical twins and her water broke today at 4:30 in the morning on the biggest day of our business as well so it's just been a total whirlwind and I'm trying to absorb all of it. And I think I might be in a little bit of shock right now. But yeah it's crazy I have two boys at home and now we have two more on the way. It's crazy.

SB: Well good luck with that.

JN: Thank you so much.

SB: Thank you for making time for us and good luck with the twins.

JN: [Chuckles] Thank you.

KG: That was Los Angeles ice cream truck owner Joe Nicchi explaining why social media influencers requests for free scoops have him melting down so much so that he made time to talk to us today while awaiting the arrival of twins. Wow! And we've got more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Cockroaches have become nearly impossible to kill with chemicals, study finds

Navy SEAL Acquitted

Guest: Dave Philipps

KG: He's a decorated U.S. Navy SEAL. And Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher also stood accused of carrying out several war crimes. Yesterday, Chief Gallagher was found not guilty of the most serious charges against him including murder and attempted murder during his time in Iraq. In the end, the Special Ops commando was found guilty of a single charge related to a photograph where he posed alongside a dead ISIS fighter. Today, he was sentenced to four month confinement and a reduced military rank. Dave Philipps has been following the case from the start. He's a military reporter for The New York Times. We reached him at the San Diego International Airport.

SB: Dave how did Edward Gallagher react when he learned his sentence today?

DAVE PHILIPPS: He looked back at his wife and made a gesture that plucked the anchor pins off of his collar which means he knew that he had lost his rank of chief. And then he shrugged, raised his eyebrows, and gave her a small smile and hugged her.

SB: So he's now a free man?

DP: He is a free man. You know just a week ago he was facing the possibility of life in prison on a murder charge. There were seven charges. Only the most minor one was he convicted of. The jury did max him out essentially on what they could have done to him. But because he had served pretrial confinement he is not looking at any jail time.

SB: This trial itself was quite dramatic. What can you tell us about the dramatic moments that you witnessed?

DP: You know SEALs publicly talking about what happens in a war zone at all is dramatic. This is a very secretive and in many cases classified group of war fighters. So just to hear them come in and talk about the fight against ISIS in 2017 was interesting. Small group working in the city of Mosul what they were doing. But what became more dramatic was these younger SEALs essentially turned on their platoon chief, Edward Gallagher, and started to detail the things that they said they saw him do. They said that they saw him stab a captive teenager to death. They said they saw him shoot at women and children with a sniper rifle. But there was one dramatic turn that I think really decided the trial and that was when a medic came in -- a man in Corey Scott. And he was supposed to be the sort of central witness for the prosecution because he had been there right next to the chief when the chief allegedly stabbed this teenager captive. And he had told investigators before that he had seen him stab him, he had told him that the stabbing killed the captive. But once he got on the stand, he downplayed the stabbing saying it was minor, he didn't see any blood. But then after the chief had left, the medic himself -- Corey Scott --had decided that he was going to kill the captive. So right there on the stand he essentially admitted to the murder and because he had immunity on the stand now there's nothing that the Navy can do.

SB: And that was a surprise to everyone. What happened when those platoon members who came forward against Edward Gallagher when they took their allegations up the chain of command how were they greeted?

DP: The SEALs is a very secretive brotherhood -- very insular. I think that there is a huge stigma about reporting anything outside of their small group. But these SEALs that had witnessed what they thought were horrible war crimes they were determined. So first -- what they told investigators -- first they went to their immediate commander, their lieutenant, and he did nothing. And so they went up to the next level. And that man did nothing. And so they went up to the next level, and that man did nothing. And it took almost a year before they finally went outside of the SEAL group to the larger navy and reported it that there was actual action.

SB: I know you've mentioned this but the eyewitnesses repeated that they saw him stab this captive -- this ISIS fighter. There were even text messages sent by Gallagher himself confirming as much. Was it just the medic's testimony that led to him getting off?

DP: The prosecution really saw this as a very simple case where you had eyewitnesses -- several of them -- essentially agreeing on what happened. And then you had the chief who a few days after the killing of this fighter sent a text message with a photo of the fighter saying that essentially I stabbed this guy. Seems pretty simple, right? But they ran into a couple of different problems. One, their lead prosecutor was removed for misconduct weeks before the case and his replacement did not have very much time to prepare. Two, there was a lot of reasonable doubt because so little physical evidence had been able to be gathered in this case. And three, the jury panel was made up of mostly Marines and a few sailors -- nearly all of whom have had combat experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. They decided that the facts that were presented to them were not enough.

SB: Gallagher's family, his supporters, have long argued that the allegations were concocted by platoon members who didn't like their boss and they wanted him gone. Was there any evidence to back this story up at the trial?

DP: That was the main theme of the defense. They called these guys entitled millennials. They did everything they could to make them seem like inexperienced brats. I don't know if that was effectively shown in their service records. These are pretty elite guys who went through some very tough training and all had deployed to combat zones before. One of the counter arguments to saying like 'oh they just made this up to get him out of there' -- is making a criminal accusation is a huge commitment for any witness especially in the SEALs. This effectively ended the careers of a number of these guys. And so I don't think they would do it lightly, I don't think they would do it over some small disagreement or hard feelings.

SB: You talk about how this trial provided a real glimpse into this culture, into the way these elite units operate. Do you think that what happened in this case will have any impact on that culture?

DP: I think this case is absolutely going to impact that culture -- the question is how. Does the fact that Chief Gallagher was accused of stabbing a teenager to death, of shooting civilians, and was found not guilty even though six seals testified -- will that have a chilling effect on junior SEALs who look at this case and say even if I see something I don't want to go through that because it's not going to stick? Or will this case which has had a very high profile in the United States and attracted the attention of the president, will this case bring scrutiny and sunlight to these special operations forces so that leaders start asking questions about how was this stuff allowed to happen and how can we address it?

SB: Dave Philipps thank you very much.

DP: Thank you.

KG: Dave Philipps reports on the military for the New York Times. We reached him in San Diego.

[Music]

Marshae Jones Update

KG: A quick update to a disturbing story we told you last week. An Alabama district attorney says Marshae Jones will not be prosecuted for the death of her fetus after all. A grand jury has indicted Ms. Jones for manslaughter after she was shot by another woman in an altercation last year. Authorities had argued Ms. Jones was responsible for her resulting pregnancy loss because she initiated that fight and the other woman was acting in self-defence. In her ruling today, the D.A. dismissed the case and said quote "There are no winners, only losers, in this sad ordeal." Alabama is one of 38 states where fetuses can be classified as victims of homicides and assaults.

[Music]

Christine Lagarde

KG: Christine Lagarde is so familiar with breaking the glass ceiling, she might as well be wearing a helmet. The French lawyer was the first woman to become finance minister of a G8 economy. The first woman to head the International Monetary Fund or IMF. And come November, she is expected to become the first female head of the European Central Bank after being nominated to the post this week. There she'll play a vital role in steering the world's second largest economy amid fear of recession, tensions in the Middle East, and the threat of a messy Brexit on the horizon. Last month before her new job was announced, Ms. Lagarde spoke to Trevor Noah on "The Daily Show" about starting at the IMF back in 2011.

SOUNDCLIP

TREVOR NOAH: It's interesting that you got this job at a time when the world was going in a bad direction. Because you took over like basically at the peak of the financial crisis. And some people have said that's another example of -- I don't know if you've heard of it -- the glass cliff. You know you have the glass ceiling and they say the glass cliff is when something goes really bad and then they give the job to a woman. They are like all right you can have it now. [Laughter].

CHRISTINE LEGARDE: Yes you're right. [Laughter]

TREVOR NOAH: Did it feel like you were stepping into a job where you were destined to fail? Because you've succeeded now. But I mean at that moment, was it terrifying?

CHRISTINE LEGARDE: It was intimidating. Yes. But your point is so right. Whenever the situation is really really bad you call in the woman.

TREVOR NOAH: Right. [Crowd cheers]

KG: That was Christine Legarde from last month speaking to Trevor Noah on The Daily Show about becoming the first woman to head the International Monetary Fund. This week the European Council announced that Ms. Lagarde -- the current head of the IMF -- has been nominated as the next president of the European Central Bank.

[Music]

Cockroaches Study

Guest: Michael Scharf

KG: Just plug any holes in the wall, they say. Clean up the potato chip crumbs littering your rug, they say. Or combine lemon juice and paprika, and, I don't know a ground up pine cone and put it in a bowl under the sink -- they say -- and all your cockroaches will vanish. Well anyone who's ever had cockroaches knows all these techniques are garbage. Getting rid of cockroaches is a long and difficult ordeal. And now worse news, according to a study published by researchers from Purdue University, it is actually getting more difficult because one of the most common types of cockroach -- the German cockroach -- is getting tougher. And that's happening with surprising speed. Michael Scharf is one of the authors of this study in the Journal of Scientific Reports. We reached him in Lafayette, Indiana.

SB: Professor Scharf the CNN headline on your research today is "Cockroaches are becoming immune to insecticides." Have a great day. How does it feel to be the bearer of such bad news?

MICHAEL SCHARF: Well it's one of our jobs as scientists to report the news as we get it. So just doing my job.

SB: What have you learned from your research about exactly how hard it is to get rid of cockroaches?

MS: Well one of the things that we just discovered in this new research that has come out is that resistance can build really quickly and populations are much quicker than we had anticipated. And once the cockroaches get there to that point with a higher level of resistance, we found that they were resistant to other insecticides that we didn't use in our study as well. So that's called cross resistance.

SB: So how did you do this study?

MS: It was a lot of hard work. We first went out and collected cockroaches and we brought them back to our lab and reared them up.

SB: Collecting them must have been a challenge.

MS: Not that hard when there are a lot of them present. We just put out some bread with one drop of beer on the bread and put it in a baby food jar and greased the top and just leave it out overnight and the roaches will come to the jars.

SB: Okay so you've got these jars full of cockroaches. You bring them back to the lab. And then what?

MS: We rear them up, over a couple of generations -- let them produce lots of numbers and then we use those offspring to determine the resistance levels to lots of different insecticides. And then we take the information that we learnt there and we took it to the field and performed a field study at the same housing sites choosing insecticides that had the lowest resistance levels.

SB: Why did you choose the apartment complexes that you did?

MS: They were made available to us. The research was done with a grant from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. And we worked in collaboration with HUD housing to try to actually help them to eliminate cockroaches in some really tough places that have perennial cockroach problems.

SB: These are low income buildings.

MS: Correct.

SB: And they're infested and people just can't cope with the cockroaches?

MS: Yes. So people you know they live in those conditions in the low income housing because they don't really have much of a choice. It's the best place they can live. And typically people in those settings have a lot bigger problems in their lives than cockroaches. And so the roaches tend to flourish in that setting. They typically don't have a large budget available to do pest control work in the way that it would need to be done to eliminate the roaches.

SB: How did you treat the cockroaches in those buildings?

MS: So we use three different kinds of treatments. And that's really where the study was focused is -- we tried to rotate insecticide products monthly for six months and one treatment. In the second treatment, we used the product that contained a mixture of two insecticides. And the third treatment, we used just one insecticide all the way through except that we chose it because it had the lowest resistance level in that pre-treatment study I mentioned where we collected the roaches and brought them back to the lab.

SB: So what did you find out after this six month treatment process?

MS: We found that only one of the housing sites with the single insecticide treatment actually gave a good result. All the other treatments in different locations, the cockroaches either held stable or increased in number which was kind of depressing. We thought we could do better than that. But we did a follow-up study which actually taught us what was going on. So that's where we learned that by collecting cockroaches at the end of the study, doing the same thing and figuring out what they were resistant to and how the resistance levels changed, we could see them really quickly developing resistance. And that explained why we had such a hard time. Their resistance levels were just taking off that whole time.

SB: Where does this leave the people who you describe as having so many other problems in their lives -- they don't really have a lot of options when it comes to fighting cockroaches?

MS: Right. So that points towards educational programs where we -- I mean the collective -- we can work with residents to teach them what they can do to limit pest problems like cockroaches. You know sanitation is very important and it's the easiest thing that we can all do that can have the biggest impact. De-cluttering apartments and also taking out trash on a regular basis -- those are big things that we're recommending. As well as people like their pets -- and so if they can just leave out pet food just once a day so the pets eat it all and then they wait till the next day to feed them again. That can be really important too.

SB: But in the meantime you've also established quite powerfully that these cockroaches are so adaptable and that they can adapt to treatments so quickly that it almost sounds like a losing battle.

MS: Well it could be. But you know we'll always have new insecticide technologies coming along and new ways to make products work. And what I mentioned about sanitation and those other factors, we've known for a long time that they can always go a long way towards keeping cockroach numbers in check. You know if they don't have food and places to hide, their populations will shrink no matter what. They're not going to become resistant to that.

SB: Well Professor Scharf thanks for explaining it to us. Good luck.

MS: You're welcome. Thank you.

KG: Michael Scharf is an urban entomologist at Purdue University. We reached him in Lafayette, Indiana. To see a picture of Mr. Scharf, visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Freya & Mila Snook

KG: Brent Snook's daughters were three when he saw them hit while playing T-ball. He saw their raw power. And he wondered if he would transfer to golf. It did. And those twins who were now eight-years-old can beat their dad at the game he introduced them to. This week Newfoundland's, Freya and Mila Snook, are heading to San Diego, California for a world championship golf tournament for kids. Which follows Freya's victory at a tournament in Massachusetts. Fred Houghton host of the St. John's Morning Show caught up with Freya and Mila as they were practicing. Here's part of their conversation. You'll hear Mila first, then Freya.

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MILA SNOOK: She started when she was three. And I started when I was four. When I was 3, I wasn't that interested as Freya was. But when I got four, my dad started to get me playing and I really enjoyed it.

FRED HUTTON: So you won the tournament in Cambridge. What was that like?

FREYA SNOOK: It was fun. It was challenging. There was a little girl playing against me and she was two up for a few holes. But then I just kicked back somehow.

FRED HUTTON: Were you nervous?

FREYA SNOOK: Umm the first few holes I was but then I just got -- it was a fun day on the golf course.

FRED HUTTON: Were there a lot of people watching?

FREYA SNOOK: No. Just our moms and dads walked along with us -- and nobody else was really there.

FRED HUTTON: But there were still some people around watching. Do you feel pressure? Do you feel nervous when you're hitting the ball or you just enjoy it?

FREYA SNOOK: After the first few holes, I was a little nervous but I got back on track.

KG: Eight-year-old twin golfers, Freya and Mila Snook, from Portugal Cove-St. Philip's, Newfoundland -- speaking with the CBC's Fred Hutton.

[Music]

Gas Price

KG: Let's say you bought a sandwich. Let's say -- I don't know -- tuna on whole wheat. And let's say it cost 47 dollars. You'd say, "why does this cost 47 dollars?" And if the cashier just said well that's important secret information -- you would put that sandwich down and go home and make your own. We don't have that option with gasoline which is frustrating especially in British Columbia which has the highest gas prices in Canada. In May, B.C. Premier John Horgan took action. Yes, the province's Utilities Commission to launch an inquiry into gas prices which it did. But it's hit a pretty major snag. The gas companies have all politely declined to you know tell the commission anything. Husky Energy said information about its profit margins was "commercially sensitive and confidential." Whereas Shell Canada taking a different tack said that the information was "confidential and commercially sensitive." And Suncor said that profit margin information was, quote, "competitively sensitive." Quick note to gas companies, if some people believe you might be price fixing you might want not to sound like you wrote your responses together over drinks after a round of golf. Regardless, this is really going to make things tough for Premier Horgan's commission. Without any answers about profit margins, British Columbians can't know if gas companies are being fair to them or if they're being played for a fuel.

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July 3, 2019 Episode Transcript

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