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The AIH Transcript for June 19, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

CH: Tonight...

CO: A long hard second look. The city of Thunder Bay will review the deaths of nine Indigenous people after Ontario's police watchdog found the racist attitudes of police contributed to inadequate investigations.

CH: Disappearing post act. Prosecutors announced murder charges against four men they say were responsible for shooting down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. But the suspects will likely never show up in court.

CO: A prince among menaces. A new report by a U.N. investigator finds credible evidence that the Saudi Crown Prince is liable in the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

CH: Figments of his re-imagination. Indigenous artist Brian Jungen has made a career of conjuring magic from everyday items -- and tonight he'll sit down with Carol to discuss the purpose of his repurposing.

CO: Wild horses couldn't keep her away. In 1959, Phyllis Dahl won the title "Miss Rodeo Canada" -- and 60 years later, she'll be back in the saddle at the local rodeo where her long thrilling ride began.

CH: And...man of the hour. A guy on a Norwegian island explains why he's pushing to have his home named the "world's first time free zone" -- and why there's no time like the present for there to be no time in the present. As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that knows when they do cancel time it will be a last minute decision.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Police review of Thunder Bay Indigenous deaths 'a big step,' says writer Tanya Talaga

Thunder Bay: Tanya Talaga

Guest: Tanya Talaga

CH: Their lives ended far too soon. And perhaps so did the investigations into their deaths. This week, Thunder Bay police announced that they would review the deaths of nine Indigenous people in the city. That move follows a recommendation by the Office of the Independent Police Review Director to reinvestigate the cases. The civilian oversight body found police had failed to conduct adequate investigations -- at least in part because of racist attitudes and racial stereotyping. One of the cases to be reviewed is that of Kyle Morrisseau. The 17-year-old is one of five young people whose bodies were found in rivers in and around Thunder Bay. Back in 2015, CBC Thunder Bay spoke with his brother Josh Kakegamic.

SOUNDCLIP

JOSH KAKEGAMIC: It happened six years ago...to me it just happened minutes ago. Hours. Seconds. He's always with me in my heart all the time. He's always in my head. I always think about him every day when I wake up. I think he did think he had a future ahead of him. It's just so sudden that he passed on. And I believe that the reason why he came out here is for education and for a brighter future for himself. And that's what he tried to do. But things happen differently I guess.

CH: That's Josh Kakegamic speaking to the CBC in 2015. His brother Kyle Morrisseau was found dead in the McIntyre River in Thunder Bay in 2009. The investigation into his death is one of nine being reviewed by the Thunder Bay Police. Four of those who died were young people from remote Indigenous communities who came to Thunder Bay to attend high school. Tanya Talaga wrote about them in her book "Seven Fallen Feathers: Racism, Death, and Hard Truths in a Northern City." We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Tanya what does it mean to have police review the investigations into these deaths?

TANYA TALAGA: This is a big step. It's something that I think the families, the community, everyone who knows about the cases of the people that have died in Thunder Bay and not been thoroughly investigated -- this is something that we've all been waiting for. But it's also bittersweet.

CO: But does it mean that they will be reinvestigated? Because there's two reports. There's one -- we're talking about now is that the investigations have to be reviewed, but it doesn't mean that they will be reinvestigated. Is that right?

TT: Well the way it looks like to me is that's what Sylvie Hauth -- the Police Chief of Thunder Bay -- has announced is that she has a team that's going forward and they are going to look at those cases again, those nine cases, and there will be an oversight of that team looking into the cases. And the oversight of that team, it's going to have representatives of Nishnawbe Aski Nation -- in particular Grand Chief Alvin Fiddler. Also there will be some people on that team from the Ontario Forensic Pathologists office and the Chief Coroner's Office.

CO: There are nine different cases. But is there anything consistent among all of them that points to why they have to be reinvestigated?

TT: The one thing that I can speak to specifically on the four cases concerning the "Seven Fallen Fathers" is seven youths who died between 2000 and 2011. I can tell you that those cases were not properly investigated from the start. Those cases all have similarities in a lack of police looking for the missing youth as soon as they were reported missing. There was problems with the investigations themselves -- from the family members, if you speak to them, they always will tell you that things were left undone and unsaid. More needed to be done right from the start. The cases showed that First Nations people in Thunder Bay are often treated as less than worthy victims. That's what came out through the seven youth inquest that was held three years ago.

CO: When you were investigating this you didn't start off doing that, did you? You were up in Thunder Bay covering federal election -- well your book describes it -- when you were told about this. But even for you it didn't become clear -- the nickel didn't drop immediately, the chief who was telling you about it had to keep repeating it.

TT: Well you know I wasn't hearing about it in the traditional media. And so when I was up there listening to Grand Chief Stan Beardy -- he was grand chief at the time (of) Nishnawbe Aski Nation. He was trying to tell me about a 15-year-old boy who had gone missing: Jordan Wabasse. And all I kept thinking to myself was, I came up here to write another story-- it was 2011, it was the time of the federal election -- and I was asking about that. And then he was trying to ask me questions about why aren't you doing a story on Jordan? He was asking me that question as an Indigenous person and also to as a member of the media, why aren't you caring? So that forced me to take a hard look and to figure out, why are we not caring? Why are we not doing this? And what's going on here? And I like to think that when I opened my ears to what he was saying that I really heard what he was saying because it was at that moment that he told me that Jordan wasn't the first one to go missing and to die in Thunder Bay -- at that point actually we didn't know he had passed. But there were six others as well who had died while at school in Thunder Bay -- six other children.

CO: And these were high school students who were away from home, they had to go to Thunder Bay because there were not high schools in their Indigenous communities to go to. And you were there in the command centre -- members of community search for Jordan Wabasse. What was it like for those people looking for this boy in this community?

TT: You know it's a remarkable thing when a First Nations person goes missing in Thunder Bay, the First Nations community comes out and if that person is from a remote fly-in community outside of Thunder Bay -- people come in from all over. Jordan was from Webequie First Nation which is near the Ring of Fire about 600 kilometres north of Thunder Bay. And people were there from all over. It was quite something to see you know all the people coming in. And the feeling of community. And just never giving up. They were never going to give up for their lost son.

CO: We've seen in Thunder Bay that the mayor of Thunder Bay has said that all of these investigations, these accusations of racism, are giving the city a bad name. We've seen people forced to resign from boards or have stepped down from them because of the turmoil around this issue. Why do you think there is so much resistance in Thunder Bay to looking at these cases?

TT: Sometimes the truth is hard to hear. We've been seeing this across the country when it comes to truth and reconciliation. Truth is the hard part. It's hard to hear what has happened in this country. It's hard to hear what's been happening in Thunder Bay. But it's the truth. We still have children dying in Thunder Bay. We still see many of the same things. So would this be taken differently if it was in any other city? I wonder -- I wonder. I think that perhaps now because we have seen changes, we have seen an awareness of what Indigenous people have been facing in this country, and that awareness -- it's not okay anymore. You know? What's happened in the past is not okay anymore. We see all this change with the police board. We see change within the Thunder Bay police service. This is a good thing.

CO: So you're hopeful that what we're now seeing even though it seems like turmoil and a lot of angry people and a lot of finger pointing -- do you think that this is a big step forward?

TT: You know I'm always hopeful. I think that the families deserve answers -- answers they never received. People deserve justice no matter what colour they are. I am hopeful yes. I'm hopeful that Thunder Bay and this whole country is going to change.

CO: We will leave it there. Tanya thank you.

TT: Migwetch.

CH: Tanya Talaga is a journalist with The Toronto Star, and the author of "Seven Fallen Feathers: Racism, Death, and Hard Truths in a Northern City." We reached her in Toronto.

Francois Legault

CH: Quebec Premier Francois Legault has a message for those who are unhappy with his new law on religious symbols -- it could have gone much further. As you heard on the show this week, the so-called secularism law -- Bill 21 -- has come under criticism from those who say it tramples on minority rights. Here's what Premier Legault had to say today when he was scrummed by reporters outside the National Assembly in Quebec City.

SOUNDCLIP

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: Right now if you look at what's happening in many countries, many people would like that we put rules for immigration -- making sure that they respect some values. If you don't do so -- we've seen for example Madame Le Pen in France, and I think that we don't want to have this kind of party, this kind of group, this kind of extremism. So if we want to avoid extremism I think we have to put some rules. That's what we did with the Bill 21.

REPORTER: And if you said we listen to the majority -- the majority on the secularism bill has been ignored for a long time, now the majority feel that it's been listened. What do you say to the minorities -- are you forgetting them?

FRANCOIS LEGAULT: No -- I say it's a moderate law. People in public areas they can wear what they want -- whatever religious sign they want. In 90 percent of the jobs in Quebec, they can wear religious signs. So the message we send them is that we're open. But we also made sure that for people being in an authoritative position that we forbid those signs. So I think it's moderate. And I think we've had compromises to all parties and we've seen that -- some people think that we didn't go far enough.

CH: Quebec Premier Francois Legault responding to questions from CBC reporter Cathy Senay earlier today.

[Music]

Khashoggi Report

Guest: Agnes Callamard

CH: It does not make for easy reading. A new UN investigation into the murder of Jamal Khashoggi reveals ugly details of his killing inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul including how the assassins planned to cut up the journalist like, quote, "a sacrificial animal." But it should make the Saudi Crown Prince especially uncomfortable. The report says that there is credible evidence that Mohammad bin Salman is liable for the murder and should be investigated. Agnes Callamard is the author of the report. She is the United Nations' special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary execution. We reached her in Geneva.

CO: Ms. Callamard why do you believe that the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman should be investigated for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi?

AGNES CALLAMARD: My inquiry has demonstrated the responsibility of the state of Saudi Arabia. I think it's an important conclusion and I wish to insist upon it. Once the state's responsibility has been demonstrated, the next step is then to turn our attention to individual responsibilities. This was not a part of my work but in the context of my inquiry I came across evidence that was credible enough to demand that a follow-up criminal investigation be conducted into high level officials.

CO: So you're saying that the Crown Prince and another senior officials are possibly liable for the killing because you have quite damning forensic evidence, don't you? Can you tell us a bit about what you found?

AC: Yes. First with regard to high level official responsibilities -- I am suggesting that they may be responsible even if they have not ordered the crime. It is important to recognize that under international law, under domestic law regarding individual liability there is a range of responsibilities. For instance it is possible that the Crown Prince or someone else directly or indirectly incited the killing. It is possible that they knew that a mission was under way and they failed to prevent it.

CO: The centerpiece of your investigation and the most disturbing part of the forensic evidence are audio recordings of seven conversations that you don't have copies of -- but what appears to be within them are some pretty horrible details about how they went about -- Saudi officials -- how they discussed how to dispose of Mr. Khashoggi and how to eliminate his body. So what did you learn in the course of those conversations?

AC: Look what those conversations are demonstrating is that the murder of Mr. Khashoggi was planned, that their way of premeditation, whether or not the kidnapping of Mr. Khashoggi was also part of the plan that I could not be certain. It is a possibility that the murder was planned as a first option or as a second option. But there is absolutely no doubt that 48 (or) 24 hours before the commission of the crime, murder was already under preparation. The presence of the forensic doctor is an element of that premeditation. The fact that an hour before the actual murder took place that doctor was discussing how to dismember a body. All of that are contributing to the finding that the murder was premeditated.

CO: There's one quote which is -- and I will warn listeners that this is disturbing -- but somebody was helping to eliminate the body. The body is heavy -- says the quote. First time a cut on the ground. If we take plastic bags and cut it into pieces it will be finished. Then there is a discussion with Mr. Khashoggi about what they're going to do. He suspects he's going to be anesthetized at which seems to be -- what you're hearing, possibly, he is suffocated with a plastic bag over his head. Is that what your sense of what happened?

AC: Yes that's my sense of what happened. This is the assessment that was made by those that have assessed the recordings and other experts that I have consulted. And indeed I have to point out that the Saudi prosecutor himself has recognized what had happened to Mr. Khashoggi including the dismemberment. So all of those elements of the crime leave unfortunately no doubt.

CO: We're hearing from Saudi Arabia is that they say well there's nothing particularly new in your investigation which you found. And they are arguing that they have 11 people on trial and they have identified who they believe may be responsible and that they're dealing with it. What do you say to Saudi Arabia?

AC: You know I'm insisting that the measures they have taken up (are) way insufficient. I'm insisting on the fact that this was a crime committed by the state of Saudi Arabia. It is not acceptable that the Saudi authorities are continuing to reject the notion that the state itself is responsible for the killing. They are continuing to insist that it was a so-called rogue operation.

CO: But the most logical place -- the most logical party to do an investigation, to pursue this -- would be the United States given that he was a U.S. resident, he was working for an US news agency. And yet we know that the White House is very tight with the Saudi regime, and that President Trump has said I really want to believe what the Crown Prince says about not being involved in this. So what are you up against as far as having anyone pursue justice for Mr. Khashoggi?

AC: Look as far as the US is concerned, there are steps taken on the part of individuals -- private individuals -- to demand further investigation. So that's in terms of a legal mechanism. I agree that the administration has demonstrated that it may not be prepared to take the necessary action. But I believe in the independence of the American judicial system and I think -- and I know -- that if he's asked to intervene on the basis of a credible briefing and evidence, follow up steps will be taken.

CO: All right we will be following this story. Ms. Callamard I appreciate speaking with you thank you.

AC: Thank you very much.

CH: Agnes Callamard is the UN special rapporteur who investigated the death of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. She was in Geneva.

[Music]

Norway Island

Guest: Kjell Hveding

CH: An island in northern Norway with about 300 residents has been getting some attention this week, and it has a lot to do with one person who lives there: Kjell Hveding. Mr. Hveding does not like how clocks dictate people's lives. So he's pushing to have the island recognized as the "world's first time free zone." He presented a petition to a politician last week. We reached Kjell Hveding on Sommaroy, in Norway.

CO: Kjell have you got all the residents of Sommaroy onboard with this idea to become a time free zone?

KJELL HVEDING: I can't guarantee that I have all, but I have most of them. And that is the important thing.

CO: Some people are kind of calling you that crazy time guy, right? As you approach.

KH: Yeah yeah of course. Always when you have new thoughts, you should be a little crazy because then you got all the opinions. So it's a good thing.

CO: All right give us your crazy idea. What is it? How do you make Sommaroy a good place to be time free?

KH: Yes. We work now with a time free zone here and that we do in different ways. First of all we do it because we believe it will give us a better life -- to take time back. And up here in the north from April till late August, we have no night. And you know when the government are discussing the new law about wintertime or summertime or moving the clock or so, we are still laughing up here because it doesn't matter. So that is the main issue why we are working with it because up here north of the Arctic Circle is totally different life than in other places in south or in Europe. And then we should not have all the district rules that they have in south.

CO: Are you going to go around and collect all the clocks and watches and lock them up so that nobody can know what time it is for three months -- four months?

KH: No. We will not be fanatic. We will be diplomatic. And that means that we will try to get more and more people to understand that you don't need the clock on your arm -- 70 percent of this day, and night, 7 days-24 hours because it is just the thing that we have done and we are looking at the clock and we are getting stressed all the time because we think "oh I must do that." Most of the things we are doing after work is things that we don't must do. And it makes it very stressful. That's why we want to take off the clock and put it on the bridge where we are made space for it.

CO: Okay. Some people coming on the island they leave their clocks behind on the bridge. And you can reclaim it when you're leaving?

KH: Yes. All over the world we have these bridges filled with locks. And now when you are here in the north you have the possibility -- if you have a watch, you don't need to put your new Rolex on or whatever [laughter] but if you have one who have stopped then it's a good sign. You can take it and say I will make a commitment that I will spend my time better. And what we see here is that when we start looking at the society we have young people who are in this part of the year they are out with the boats almost every evening, every night, when the rest of Europe is in darkness. And I have spoken with the young ones and said, "Do you know that if you have done this in Oslo the police will have been here and they will have been talking very very hard to your parents?"

CO: But what else are people doing in what we would call the middle of the night in Sommaroy?

KH: It is very popular to paint their houses in the middle of the night. I just saw now -- five minutes ago I passed the house where people were standing painting. It's perfect to paint the houses in the night. It's perfect also to go kayaking, and walk, or sitting in the neighbour's garden and have a good chat, and don't ever think of the clock. And people say, when do you sleep? And I say we sleep when we are tired, but the light here in this part of the year it makes us sleep less than in the winter.

CO: Right. As far as other people go -- I mean people have businesses. I know you're going to attract tourists -- you're campaigning to get people to visit this land of the midnight sun. How do hotels work? One receptionist at a local hotel says, "How do you have a check-in and check-out if there's no time?"

KH: Like I said we are not fanatics. We are diplomatic. And that means that you get your room when you need your room. And we also have some rules about checking-out but we try to be flexible. And we have customers -- our people here who are staying out the whole night, they can just give us a message and say 'I will not be able to reach breakfast in the morning but' -- and then we say, then we make breakfast packets so you can eat it at noon. Why? Because you had a good time. That is flexibility also in the hotel.

CO: How will they know what time it is to go and have that breakfast then? They haven't got their watch -- they left it on the bridge.

KH: We are eating after the clock normally. But here we want people to eat when they are hungry.

CO: Kjell what time is it right now?

KH: Right now I have the phone here speaking with you. So now it is 9:33 in the night.

CO: So you have a clock. You're watching the time. [Laughs]

KH: Yeah of course because everybody has their phone but they could take off the clock and use the phone more. That is what we talk about.

CO: Well Kjell thanks for giving us some time.

KH: Yeah. It's okay because we will not have darkness before August so we have all the time we want.

CO: Take care. Bye bye.

KH: Take care.

CH: That was Kjell Hveding in Sommaroy, Norway. And we reached him earlier today or later today. We reached him!...who cares.

[Music]

Part 2: MH17 Charges

MH17 Charges

Guest: Silene Fredriksz

CH: Five years after Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over Ukraine, four men have now been charged with murder. But although the trial will go ahead in the Netherlands, it's very unlikely that the accused will ever really face justice. Three men prosecutors say were responsible for downing the plane are in Russia, and one is believed to be in eastern Ukraine. Silene Fredriksz's son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy were killed on MH17. We reached Silene Fredriksz in a car near Amsterdam.

CO: Silene as you know these men are to be tried in absentia -- does that seem like justice will be served to you?

SILENE FREDRIKSZ: As long as I know the truth, it's okay by me. I don't expect very much that the perpetrators will be in jail someday. No I don't expect that.

CO: And we know that three of the men who have been charged -- they're former Russian security officers, one of them is from Ukraine -- do you know what role these men allegedly played in shooting down MH17?

SF: They gave the orders. We heard a lot of phone conversations -- let us hear phone taps and they know who were speaking. Ukraine secret services taping a lot of phones at the time.

CO: What do you make of the fact that Russia continues to deny that it supplied the missile system?

SF: That makes me angry. Really angry. Especially the lies. They're lying all the time and telling everybody that the JIT is lying or the JIT is not lying of course. That makes me angry, yes.

CO: They say -- they claim to be willing to cooperate -- but they say that this is...

SF: They are not. They simply don't give answers. They don't.

CO: Do you think that it matters to these four men that they're going to be tried in absentia?

SF: Already two of them reacted in the media they don't. They didn't have anything to do with it. And they're not going to show up.

CO: But it also means if they are wanted for these charges that their lives are quite limited, aren't they? Their ability to move and to travel.

SF: Yes. They can only stay in Russia. And the one in Ukraine is still living in Ukraine as far as the JIT knows. And of course Ukraine is trying to find him and arrest him. I think that will be hard.

CO: You're mentioning the JIT -- it's the Joint Investigation Team.

SF: Yes.

CO: Now some suggest it's possible because he is in Ukraine that Ukraine could turn him over -- is there a possibility that he might actually be in the courtroom someday?

SF: Well not in the Netherlands but maybe in a video call. He cannot be extradited to the Netherlands because of Ukrainian law. But Ukraine promise that if they can catch him he will (appear in court) via video call.

CO: If you had a chance to face these men, what would you want them to know about what you have been through?

SF: I think that they don't care. That's what I think. They ruined my life and of my whole family -- and the children's lives. They had a future and that was stolen. For what?

CO: And we're speaking about your son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy who were killed on that plane.

SF: Yes. Yeah. They had a whole future in front of them. There were 80 young age -- young adults and children in the plane. That's a lot. Also babies.

CO: Are you in touch with other families of those who went down in the plane?

SF: Yes. Yes. We have a lot of contacts with other families.

CO: And some of them -- people are moving on, some family members have even passed away without knowing what happened, haven't they?

SF: It's very hard to move on. Your life is very different. Losing a child is different from losing a father or mother or a brother or a sister. Part of your future is gone. For some people or the whole future is gone because they have no other children anymore.

CO: What's your sense of what people -- those families, those people you're in touch with -- what do they want out of this trial?

SF: Justice and the truth. Most of all the truth. What happened? Who did it? Why? Why could this happen? How could this happen? It won't take away our pain and grief, but we have so many questions and we'd like to know the answers. That part can be closed then.

CO: We spoke to you about losing your son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy about three years ago. It was an intensely difficult time for you. Your grief was quite obvious. Has it changed at all since then? Has the intensity changed at all?

SF: The crying is less. But the missing is becoming more. The pain is still there. Always there. Yeah we try to move on. We do nice things. We go on holiday again but always left a pain in your heart and soul. Always -- it's always there.

CO: And do you think at the end of this process you will have the truth that you need?

SF: I don't think it will change my grief or my pain or missing. I don't think it will change a bit but I just need to know answers.

CO: Silene I hope you get those answers and I appreciate you speaking with us again.

SF: Yes of course. Anytime.

CH: We reached Silene Fredriksz whose son and his girlfriend were killed in the MH17 crash near Amsterdam.

[Music]

Ta-Nehisi Coates

CH: Ta-Nehisi Coates was asked to appear before the US Congress this morning to testify before a committee considering a proposal to pay reparations to the descendants of American slaves. But first the writer wanted to give the Republican Senate majority leader a little history lesson. Mitch McConnell was asked about today's hearing yesterday. He said, quote, "I don't think reparations for something that happened 150 years ago for whom none of us currently living are responsible is a good idea. We tried to deal with our original sin of slavery by fighting a civil war, by passing landmark civil rights legislation, elected an African-American president." Here's Ta-Nehisi Coates at the US House Judiciary Committee earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

TA-NEHISI COATES: Enslavement reigned for 250 years on these shores. When it ended, this country could have extended its hallowed principles, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to all regardless of colour. But America had other principles in mind. And so for a century after the Civil War, black people were subjected to a relentless campaign of terror. A campaign that extended well into the lifetime of Majority Leader McConnell. It is tempting to divorce this modern campaign of terror, of plunder, from enslavement. But the logic of enslavement, of white supremacy, respects no such borders. And the God of bondage was lustful and begat many heirs. Coup d'etats and convict leasing. Vagrancy laws and debt peonage. Redlining and racist G.I. bills. Poll taxes and state sponsored terrorism. We grant that Mr. McConnell was not alive for Appomattox. But he was alive for the electrocution of George Stinney. He was alive for the blinding of Isaac Woodward. He was alive to witness kleptocracy in his native Alabama and a regime premised on electoral theft. Majority Leader McConnell cited civil rights legislation yesterday as well he should because he was alive to witness the harassment, jailing, and betrayal of those responsible for that legislation by governments sworn to protect them. He was alive for the redlining of Chicago and the looting of black homeowners of some 4 billion dollars. Victims of that plunder are very much alive today. I am sure they would love a word with the majority leader. What they know, what this committee must know is that while emancipation dead bolted the door against the bandits of America, Jim Crow wedged the windows wide open. And that is the thing about Senator McConnell's "something" -- it was 150 years ago, and it was right now. The typical black family in this country has one-tenth the wealth of the typical white family. Black women die in childbirth at four times the rate of white women. And there is of course the shame of this land of the free boasting the largest prison population on the planet of which the descendants of the enslaved make up the largest share.

CH: That was writer Ta-Nehisi Coates testifying before the US House Judiciary Committee earlier today.

[Music]

Miss Rodeo

Guest: Phyllis Dahl

CH: 1959 was the year that changed everything for Phyllis Dahl. That was the year that she won "Miss Rodeo Canada" -- and ended up on an adventure bigger than she could have imagined. Now on the 60th anniversary of her big win, she's going to be honored at a rodeo back where it all began in High River, Alberta. We reached Ms. Dahl in Okotoks, Alberta.

CO: Phyllis what was it like to be Miss Rodeo Canada in 1959? How did you feel about that?

PHYLLIS DAHL: Well you know what? It was so exciting. It was the thrill of a lifetime really because I was a real naive country kid at the age of 18. I was raised on a ranch in Millarville and I had never been away from home or anything you know. Like the farthest I'd ever been from home is Lethbridge which is 120 miles. And I had never been on a plane, a train, boat or anything like that. So it was a very exciting year for me. And wow! It was an eye opener. [Laughs]

CO: But you were in the rodeo before that, weren't you? You were competing a different way. Can you tell us about that?

PD: Well I guess when I was growing up the younger people like myself would get together on different ranches and try and ride steers because the boys all wanted to get ready for the rodeos coming up. And so when they were going to enter they said, "Well Phil you have got to answer too." I said, "Come on! I'm a girl." "Ah you can enter as a boy. You can call yourself Phil." So I thought, well that sounds like a real good adventure. So I put a jean jacket on and a big old hat that I put my hair all up underneath it and pulled it down over my ears and entered in and I rode it. So I won the boy's steer riding. But when it came time to give the little buckle out that they had up for the award, they weren't sure what to do about that.

CO: Because they didn't know you were a girl until then?

PD: No. And so they had a quick meeting and decided to give me the buckle. But the next year in the program -- it read "Boys Steer Riding" -- in brackets --"(Absolutely no girls allowed.") [Laughter] So it was fun. That was a fun thing.

CO: But you competed for Miss Rodeo instead of being able to ride steers -- and you won that too...

PD: Well I was 14 when I rode in the Boys Steer Riding. And then when I turned 18, the merchants of High River asked me to run for their rodeo queen. And I didn't have any clue that they would then sponsor me to enter the Miss Rodeo Canada contest. And oh my gosh I was just...I was overwhelmed and just thrilled. But being so naive about everything, it was scary. And I managed to win that one. And then they sponsored me to go to Las Vegas to the Miss Rodeo America contest -- and out of 18 contestants there I was the youngest one but I managed to get the first runner up in Miss Rodeo America.

CO: But now for you though, you had not done much travel before then, had you?

PD: No -- not at all. Well it was just oh man you wouldn't believe. I was so afraid to go down there because I had to get on a plane. I was scared to get on a plane. So I asked them if they could give me the money it would cost them to send me in a chaperone down to the contest -- myself and a chaperone -- and if I could give it to my parents maybe they would drive me. And I gave my mom and dad the money and they drove me down there. And it was about the only holiday my mom and dad ever had either -- they had never been anywhere either.

CO: You had a really interesting account -- sort of a fairy tale thing that you actually met a young handsome movie star.

PD: Yes I did. My goodness what a thrill it was when we were all out to aside of the Flamingo Hotel which was about the only one on the strip at that point -- it was brand new. And so in the afternoon it was hot. And we had our Western suits on and so on. And all of a sudden out comes -- we couldn't believe it -- Clint Eastwood! And he came over and was talking to us. I think there was six of us around the pool. And it was so warm that when we were talking with him all of the sudden I was feeling lightheaded and the next thing I know I had fainted I guess. And Clint gave his handkerchief to one of the girls she ran over to the swimming pool and got it wet. When I came to -- I was laying on the ground there -- and he was leaned over me and he was wiping my brow with his wet handkerchief. And so all I could see was all the girls looking over and Clint Eastwood and I thought oh where was I? [Laughter]

CO: You swooned and Clint Eastwood rescued you?

PD: Yes yes! [Laughter] I mean anybody would. He was so handsome, and he was 26 years old...He was handsome.

CO: Now all this is going to be remembered and recognized in High River this weekend -- once again you will be honored as having been that rodeo queen 60 years ago. What's that going to be like for you?

PD: Well I think it's going to be absolute wonderfully because it brings back gorgeous memories of that year. Plus the current Miss Rodeo Canada is also from High River, and so they're going to introduce her and then they're going to introduce me and sort of like here 60 years ago High River rodeo queens that won Miss Rodeo Canada. And so it's going to be a great event.

CO: Well I think that you should show them how to ride a steer.

PD: [Laughs] I don't think that my bones would handle it anymore. I'll be 78 year old next week.

CO: Phyllis I'm happy for you and I hope it's a great event. Thanks so much.

PD: It was so wonderful. And thank you so much. I know we'll have a great show this weekend.

CH: Phyllis Dahl was Miss Rodeo Canada in 1959. Now 60 years later she's being honored at the rodeo where she won her first rodeo queen contest in High River, Alberta. We reached her in Okotoks.

[Music]

Shark

CH: For a moment they honestly thought they were going to need a bigger boat. On Monday, off the coast of Jersey Shore, a group of fishermen had a surprise encounter with a local resident: a great white shark. The shark which seemed to dwarf the fishing boat was after a bag of bait floating off their vessel. And the men caught it all on camera. Here's how they told the story to CBS New York's Ali Bauman.

SOUNDCLIP

[Water sound]

VOICE 1: Roughly 18 feet long and 3000 pounds, this great white shark is not for the faint hearted.

[People yelling]

VOICE 2: When you're out there in a boat like that with a fish that big...you feel very small.

VOICE 1: These five fishermen from Toms River were nearing the end of a 13-hour day at sea Monday when about 30 miles from the shore of Point Pleasant a shark started swimming into sight.

[People yelling "It's huge!"]

VOICE 2: Its feet circled two or three times before it actually came at us aggressively. And then it just snapped like that and it attacked our chum bag -- tore the chum bag off the boat.

VOICE 1: And when a shark takes your bag full of fish, you're not getting that back.

VOICE 2: We had no idea that it was actually going to chew the chum bag.

VOICE 3: It just was the coolest thing that we've ever seen.

VOICE 1: It's teeth scratched the stern of the 43 year old boat.

VOICE 4: Kind of got some battle wounds over here.

VOICE 1: And could have done a lot more damage.

VOICE 2: I think it could have easily if it wanted to, slid into the boat. It was like being in with the movie "Jaws." It was the closest thing to it. Like this is exactly what it was.

VOICE 1: That's right. Captain Jeff Crilly already had a "Jaws" tattoo on his forearm -- and now here he was watching the real thing play out inches from his eyes.

VOICE 2: We wanted to be there and touch it. But at same time we were backing away because we didn't know what it was...

VOICE 1: But these seasoned seamen were too excited to be scared.

VOICE 2: You are there -- you have no choice. So what are you going to do? Just enjoy the moment.

VOICE 1: And eventually the great white ran out of chum and quietly swam away.

VOICE 3: We've been fishing together for 15 years and it was the best moment probably we will ever happen on the water.

CH: A group of fishermen telling CBS New York about the moment they saw a great white shark off the coast of New Jersey.

[Music]

Joy Harjo

CH: Joy Harjo has described poetry as "an immense conversation of the soul." She's a writer and musician from Oklahoma's Muscogee Creek Nation and the author of eight books of poetry. And now at 68 years old, she's been named the U.S. Poet Laureate. She's the first ever Native American to hold the title. Ms. Harjo told The Associated Press that she wants to use the role to, quote, "bring the contribution of poetry of the tribal nations to the forefront, and included in the discussion of poetry." Here she is reading her poem, "Equinox" at the Griffin Poetry Awards in Toronto in 2016.

SOUNDCLIP

JOY HARJO: I must keep from breaking into the story by force

for if I do I will find myself with a war club in my hand

and the smoke of grief staggering toward the sun,

your nation dead beside you.

I keep walking away though it has been an eternity

and from each drop of blood

springs up sons and daughters, trees,

a mountain of sorrows, of songs.

I tell you this from the dusk of a small city in the north

not far from the birthplace of cars and industry.

Geese are returning to mate and crocuses have

broken through the frozen earth.

Soon they will come for me and I will make my stand

before the jury of destiny. Yes, I will answer in the clatter

of the new world, I have broken my addiction to war

and desire. Yes, I will reply, I have buried the dead

and made songs of the blood, the marrow.

CH: There was Joy Harjo performing her poem "Equinox" at the Griffin Poetry Awards in Toronto in 2016. Ms. Harjo has just become the first Native American to be named U.S. Poet Laureate.

[Music]

Part 3: How this B.C. artist uses sliced up Air Jordans to connect with his Indigenous roots

Feature: Brian Jungen

Guest: Brian Jungen

CH: With Brian Jungen's work you think you know what you're looking at. And then, your jaw drops. The Indigenous B.C. artist's sculpture "Cetology" is a massive blue whale skeleton. But then, there's a moment when you realize the bones aren't bones at all. They're pieces of white lawn chairs -- the kind you buy at Canadian Tire -- strung together into something spectacular. Mr. Jungen is a master at taking everyday objects and turning them into works of art. He's made a career of tearing apart Nike Air Jordan running shoes and using them to create striking traditional masks. Or he'll transform brand new golf bags into towering totem poles. All these creations and many more are being showcased at a new exhibit that's opening tomorrow at the Art Gallery of Ontario celebrating 20 years of Brian Jungen's work. And today Mr. Jungen joined Carol in the As It Happens studio for a feature interview.

CO: Brian first of all welcome to the As It Happens studio.

BRIAN JUNGEN: I'm happy to be here.

CO: We have tried to describe your sculpture "Cetology" -- this blue whale skeleton made out of lawn chairs, plastic lawn chairs, and I don't think we have done justice to it. But just for yourself -- when you are seeing people and people walk into the room in the gallery and they see that massive thing and it takes your breath away to see it. Have you watched people do that and seen the reaction?

BRIAN JUNGEN: Well not much. I mean I tend to -- once I'm finished making art work -- I tend to just launch it in the world and let it have its own life. But when I was making them I definitely saw that experience and I was very interested in that shift that people would have when they would see the form first and then what it was made out of -- it kind of breaks people's familiarity with the material world around them. I mean I think I saw the possibility in those chairs because I kept seeing them on the street broken. And you can't fix them once they are broken so they become this like disposable thing -- that is real tragedy. But anyways, I was curious about what I could do with that form because I saw them as being kind of liberated once they were broken and they had a completely new possibility.

CO: How did you decide that they could be refashioned into a whale skeleton?

BRIAN JUNGEN: I think I was actually down at the Vancouver Aquarium. This was like 20 years or so ago. And I stumbled upon exhibit on the history of the whaling industry in the West Coast, and how whale oil was once used to light the streets of the cities in Canada. And that had been replaced by petroleum. And I think that was the kind of spark for what I wanted to do with those chairs. So I decided to try to make something organic -- something skeleton like. And I've always been kind of fascinated by how people have kind of like preset or predetermined ideas of what they will see in a museum. Like I had seen whale skeletons in museums of natural history. So I wanted to just kind of take advantage that people might have that same memory of what that object is. I also like that I could just make those whale skeletons anywhere. I've made three of them and I just kind of show up at a museum and just go to big box store and buy a bunch of those chairs and then make another one. So I make kind of three variations with that basic system.

CO: The one recreation out of ordinary objects that I think for people seeing this exhibit that will just really blow their minds is what do you do with Nike Air Jordan running shoes which has such a huge history. When did you first learn about those shoes?

BRIAN JUNGEN: I was a teenager in the 80s and so that hit me kind of perfectly. I was probably about 15. I saw the ads for them on TV and there wasn't much basketball on television back then...

CO: But there was Michael Jordan.

BRIAN JUNGEN: There was Michael Jordan for sure and his accomplishments. And I remember there was one kid in my school who had them and he was like a rock star just because he was wearing these shoes, right. So it had this incredible appeal to like all kids. And I never actually owned any until I was probably in my 20s. But later -- around the late 90s -- I was in New York City and I stumbled into a Nike town store and that's where I first saw how they were displaying their prototypes of their sneakers in a museum like display cases. And that was the start of that project.

CO: Do you want to describe for people what you do with Nike Air Jordan’s? It might make them a bit nervous and uncomfortable after all the things they probably went through in order to own one pair. But what do you do with them? [Laughter]

BRIAN JUNGEN: I started to use them as material for sculpture. And I started making masks that resembled a lot of First Nations art from the West Coast. But initially I just really wanted to take them apart and take photographs of them so the art would actually be a photograph. But I decided to put more effort into it and start to kind of stitch them back together to look like they were actually made by the Nike company so they would look like they had been mass produced. But yeah so I took them apart very meticulously at first and then re-organized them and then sewed them back together. Like back in the 90s their design really lent itself to a lot of like very familiar West Coast motifs -- curves and stuff. So I actually didn't have to change them that much. I wanted I guess people to see these things as something that there is a connection between ceremony and sports and ceremony in much smaller kind of Indigenous communities and how they both fulfill this kind of basic human desire for ritual and ceremony.

CO: Well I understand that Footlocker staff are accustomed to you coming in and buying a dozen or two pairs at a time for your art, right? They know you well.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah. The funny thing is because the Air Jordan trainers have their own like trade almost -- like there are collectors who just collect those sneakers in particular and sit on them and then resell them. So they didn't really ask any question [laughter].

CO: What would they have thought if they'd known you were taking them home to cut them up into pieces?

BRIAN JUNGEN: When I first started buying them on like a mass scale like in 1999 that was still kind of unusual. Like they'd always ask if I had a basketball team. And it was just easier to say yes than try to explain what I was planning on doing with them. They may not have sold them to me if I told them I was going to cut them off [laughter].

CO: But even for you what was it like to take a pair of scissors to those shoes that were like gold -- they were just objects of desire throughout your high school years?

BRIAN JUNGEN: I kind of got a bit of an illicit thrill out of cutting them up. They're brand new. And at first I cut them up or I took them apart very carefully. And then I got more comfortable with it and I started using all sorts of different tools. And it's funny because now I'm very good at it and there's very similar motions that I use with a knife cutting up an Air Jordan that is very similar to like getting a salmon or skinning a moose. So there are skills that are kind of translatable. [Laughs]

CO: It's interesting because when you go back to that Nike store display that almost looks like a museum and when you talk about Indigenous art in museums -- they're fetishized, aren't they? I mean people collect them like fetishes. And Nike Jordan’s are like fetishes as well. There is a connection there between how things get displayed from the Indigenous world and from this commercial world.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah I mean going back to that time I was in New York and was at the Nike store -- I had actually that same day been at the Museum of Natural History and I saw a lot of -- not only northwest coast -- but a lot of Indigenous artwork that's kind of still in the realm of the Science Museum. And that was kind of upsetting to me. And so seeing how kind of those objects became fetishized and held up as specimens of nature rather than being put in an art museum that got me thinking about how other objects are treated in a very different way like putting sneakers behind glass and stuff.

CO: I'm speaking with Brian Jungen, the artist behind a new exhibit opening Thursday at the Art Gallery of Ontario which showcases 20 years of his remarkable work. And Brian, I want to take people into the gallery at this point because you've done something that -- well maybe this week wouldn't seem so surprising in Toronto but you've made a recreation of basically a high school gymnasium. You want to describe what you did and why you did that.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah. So I've been working with AGO for over a year on this exhibition and I guess about a year ago I had a chance to visit the galleries while they were between exhibitions and they were completely empty. And the curator and I -- I remarked to her how it felt like a gymnasium in there -- also just architecturally: the ceiling, and a lot of the lights looked (and) felt like a gym. And I decided that it might be an interesting context to show the Nike trainers work. Now I got to thinking about my history and I guess maybe a collective history of people with high school gyms. It could be a sight of you know incredible pain for people who you know weren't involved or interested in sports. But it's also a place for a lot of First Nations people that is a site of like ceremony especially for gatherings and dancing. And I wanted to try to explore that territory. And one important memory I had was spending time at the Vancouver Friendship Centre on East Hastings. I use to have a studio that was right behind it and I saw all sorts of different activities in that gymnasium including basketball games. And I wanted to make the creative space in a museum that seemed a bit more kind of welcoming -- a place that possibly like a lot of youth could identify with.

CO: Well especially this week. And we should point out that it's just a coincidence that you happened to have opened an exhibit that recreates in part what looks like a high school basketball court in a week where basketball fever has taken over this entire nation. So this is just a coincidence, right?

BRIAN JUNGEN: No -- I actually worked really hard to plan all that. [Laughter]

CO: You were the one behind the Raptors' success. Now it's clear to me! [Laughter]

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah I was watching the series for a bit with Milwaukee and then when the Raptors made it to the finals I was like -- I couldn't believe it. Then I looked at the game schedule and if they did go to Game 7, it would've been on Monday -- like the two days before the opening of my show. So I really was hoping that they would win. [Laughter]

CO: Well people would have connected with basketball anyway but in a huge way because of that. There's another part -- recycled object -- that you use that is really fascinating and you use golf bags. All these golf bags redesigned into what appear to be totem poles.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah I mean I made that for a specific exhibition in Vancouver years ago. I made a series of them. But I was very struck by the design of these golf bags. Like when I go into a store typically like a sports store, Canadian Tire -- I don't really look at objects maybe the same way most people do. I look at them how...

CO: Clearly. [Laughs]

BRIAN JUNGEN: ...how they might come apart. The golf bags -- I didn't actually have to do much to them. I really just doubled them up and put them over a tube. But again there's something that speaks to the iconography of Indigenous art that everybody knows what a totem pole is.

CO: But again so much like your other work where these kinds of layers of irony and humor that are there and history and what it is rooted in. You know it seems that it connects to the fact that there's golf courses on Indigenous land all over the place. And having followed the Oka Crisis closely this is something you put into the exhibit too -- this connection with how golf courses have used Indigenous property.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah especially in and around urban centres in Canada -- and that's something I first noticed in Vancouver is the kind of disparities between the community whose reserve that it belongs to and then the leased out golf courses and completely different types of land use -- but they are often just right across the street from each other. So I was fascinated by that. And then of course the Oka Crisis in 1990 -- those of us who can remember that remember that it started from an expansion of a golf course dispute.

CO: I have Brian Jungen in the studio here. He is the artist behind this extraordinary new exhibit opening Thursday at the Art Gallery of Ontario. And I want to talk about where your inspiration comes from and to go back to a story -- tell if this is true that you bought the entire stock of Lego at your local Hudson's Bay department store. Is this true?

BRIAN JUNGEN: [Laughs] Well I'm not sure the entire stock but quite a bit of it.

CO: Enough to fill a freezer I understand!

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah well my parents lived on my grandparents' cattle ranch. And so when I was a little boy, my dad was trying to get us kids involved in agriculture and I had a young foal and I also had some calves when I was quite young and so I had to take care of them. And then when opportunity came that we could auction off livestock when we would be taking cattle to the auction, my dad gave me the choice if I could keep them or auction them off. So I went to the auction and was a part of it. And it was my first time earning money and I was so excited. Well my dad needed -- we needed -- a new freezer so he bought a freezer at the Bay and I bought all the Lego in stock. [Laughter] And when we got home he kind of just dumped it all into the freezer box and then lifted me into the box.

CO: Wonderful. Wonderful. And did you love working with Lego?

BRIAN JUNGEN: Oh yeah. I was very imaginative in my own world. I was like constantly creating stuff. And when I discovered Lego I was like silent for months just playing with it.

CO: Your art obviously connect so completely with your Indigenous culture, your awareness of that. But there was a large stretch of your life where you were being raised by your father's family who were non-Indigenous. How did you come to be being raised by your aunt and her family?

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah my folks died in a fire and our place burnt down when I was about 7. So then I went to live with my dad's family. My dad came from Switzerland when he was a kid. And so I went to live with my immigrant family and I spent like 10 years living with them.

CO: I asked you that very coldly and I apologize for how I phrased that. And you answered it so matter of fact-ly. I'm aware that this period must have been quite painful.

BRIAN JUNGEN: I went through a lot of anguish then. And that's something that took me quite a while to get over. And I think a large part of my kind of self-therapy was art and creating my own world -- and I became very good at drawing and painting. And then after I graduated from high school, I went to art school in Vancouver at Emily Carr. And I started to get back in touch with my mom's family. And I think that time of like being in art school and in Vancouver was really very hard for me because I grew up in northern B.C. so I got a lot of kind of support from my Indigenous family and my community up there and that was very important to me.

CO: What was that like when you reconnected with that? Because often when people are away from something and they come to it they see it with fresh eyes, they see it with a way that maybe you wouldn't had you stayed in your mother's community.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah I mean I think I really learned a lot about -- my experience is kind of shared by a lot of Indigenous people whether their separation from their community is within the family like my experience or it was like legislated. And so there's a big shared history of loss in First Nations communities and I think some of my work started to touch on that. There was a lot of unanswered questions I had as a teenager so it was very it was a tough time for me for sure.

CO: You have in the exhibit -- you have this lovely quiet film (of) you and your uncle moose hunting in northern B.C. And you spoke earlier about how it's often when you're carving up a Nike running shoe it's kind of like filleting a fish. How do you put these two worlds together? This rarefied world of art. You know what it's like -- it can be quite pretentious, quite elite. And then you have this other world where you're in the bush, where you are fishing. You must have whiplash most of the time.

BRIAN JUNGEN: [Laughs] Well I don't know. I really need to be in a lot of nature and be in my community in northern B.C. quite often and that's very important to me. And so I do travel quite a bit for more exhibitions not as much as I used to. But I made that film with my friend Duane Linklater. He's from Northern Ontario. And we both enjoy hunting and we do a lot of hunting with our families in the past and we remarked about how the conversation is always about you know typical family stuff. And we wanted to do a hunting project where we talked about contemporary art while we were in like [laughter] There's a lot of quiet time...

CO: That's weird.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah I know. It was weird. But we never really thought of it as being such a big project and we thought it would make a kind of funny video. So we kind of revisited it with actual film camera like a 16 millimetre camera man and we just decided to just let him follow us. And we didn't know if we were going to get a moose or not. But we also didn't know if the film footage would turn out.

CO: It worked.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Yeah it worked pretty good.

CO: But again how politics was an undercurrent but not overstated in any way of politics throughout your work and that this location -- the landscape -- is the proposed Site C Dam -- destined to make a huge impact on that area. What do you want people to take away from that knowledge?

BRIAN JUNGEN: I mean the film is somewhat of a love letter to northeastern B.C. where I grew up. That part of B.C. is actually more like the prairies. It's on the east side of the Rockies, and it has oil and gas. And so it is kind of more aligned geographically and politically maybe with Alberta. A lot of people in B.C. don't realize that. They also don't realize that that's where their electricity comes from with the previous dams on the Peace River. And now more people from the rest of the province are realizing that that energy part of the province is becoming more and more developed and less important in terms of conservation and tradition.

CO: This whole exhibition at the AGO is happening at a time when it seems to me as though there is an awareness in this country, there's a new conversation going on between Indigenous people and the rest of Canada. And it's beyond just with government. It is with all of us. Am I wrong in that -- that it feels from our side, from those who are trying to connect with the story, that there is a new conversation going on?

BRIAN JUNGEN: Oh yeah I definitely think so. I think there's much more of focus and interest in Indigenous communities across the country within mass media. And there's also lots just on the ground locally. Like in my community Doig River First Nation there's an open house of sorts for the school district to come and learn and witness and participate in traditional Dane-Zaa skills and culture. And it's flooded with kids from like non-native kids and they love it. And it's really amazing to see how all these kids are fascinated about how to skin a beaver, and learn that this was how the country was built in a way. The fur trade was like the first kind of resource extraction economy that built Canada, and that there are still people who do this in parts of the country and their technology of trapping beavers helped create the country that they live in now.

CO: It gives me great hope the thought that that is happening with the next generation that they will have a deeper understanding of the land and the people who lived here for generations before colonisation. At the same time though I guess we're seeing that everywhere I go now there is recognition, acknowledgement, of whose land we're on at the beginning of events. There are books. There are movies. There is art. But where is that line going to reach? We just saw with the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls report when they used the word "genocide" and the nation went [Makes gasp sound] 'What? No. No. You can't cross that line.' Do you feel we get to this place where 'yeah we understand, but we're not going to go that far?'

BRIAN JUNGEN: Well yeah I mean I think when you start to use that kind of language it takes in a direction where people will argue whether just ignoring a segment of the population or turning your back on them is the same as some sort of legislated extermination. So I think there is definitely a separation there but it's definitely a tactic that people may use to get people's attention. And I think the tactics that some people have to use to get people to realize that things like the missing and murdered women, has been ignored for so long and that the treatment of First Nations women and health and their health has been something that has been a big failure to Canada.

CO: Do you think it's a tactic that will work?

BRIAN JUNGEN: I don't know. Sometimes it's dismaying to see how people have such short attention spans now with media and with how things like social media have taken over opinion making and like storytelling and truth telling. And I learned a long time ago that I can't control what the media says about my artwork and I'm not going to try and like steer a specific interpretation -- I'm kind of open to all sorts of things.

CO: What do you want people to take away from this exhibition?

BRIAN JUNGEN: I mean I think it would be great if people found that like going into a museum -- as an art museum -- it shouldn't be about not knowing how to behave or not knowing what to say or see -- but that they can ask questions, they can look at artwork and interpret it in all sorts of different ways. And that Indigenous art can be a lot of different things that they might not think of.

CO: But what will they learn do you think?

BRIAN JUNGEN: That the world around them that anything can be art.

CO: The ugliest things can be beautiful?

BRIAN JUNGEN: [Laughs] Yeah.

CO: Brian it's really lovely to speak with you. Thank you.

BRIAN JUNGEN: Thank you.

CH: That was Brian Jungen speaking to Carol in studio today. The B.C. Indigenous artist is being showcased at a new exhibit opening tomorrow at the Art Gallery of Ontario. And you can check out his incredible sculptures on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Pretty Woman at a Falafel Place

CH: A "pretty woman" enters a Winnipeg cafe, only to be told she and her family will have to come back later. Happens all the time at the Falafel Place. It's a busy joint. Thing was though this was the "Pretty Woman" -- Julia Roberts with her husband and three kids in tow. CBC Manitoba's Marcy Markusa picks up the story with owner Ami Hassan.

SOUNDCLIP

AMI HASSAN: It happened on Sunday -- Father's Day at about 10:30. She comes in. She had big sunglasses. She had a big hat. They come in: her, her husband, and three children. The place is busy. I opened the door. I said good morning everybody. I said we are quite full right now but if you guys want to go for a walk for half an hour I promise you that when you'll be back I'll get you a table. And they say nicely thank you very much. And they turned around -- and at the same time one of the server of the Falafel Place told me "No don't send them. Don't send them because she's very famous." I said "What are you talking about? She is just a regular person." He said, "No. She's a famous lady from Hollywood." Meantime she walks out, comes back in half an hour later. I sit them down. I still don't know who they are. They order their meal and then the customers told me, "Do you know who she is?" That's exactly what happened.

MARCY MARKUSA: When did you realize it was Julia Roberts?

AMI HASSAN: Well everybody was standing -- people were quiet, there was silence in the restaurant for about 20 minutes. [Laughter] You know she ordered a muffin. She ate it. Then she ordered a falafel. And the children ordered whatever they ordered. It was nice. She was very pleasant.

MARCY MARKUSA: You sent Julia Roberts for a walk around the block...

AMI HASSAN: I told her to go for half an hour. This is crazy! [Laughter] I had no idea.

MARCY MARKUSA: I kind of love that that happened actually.

AMI HASSAN: It's just crazy.

MARCY MARKUSA: I heard that the rest of her experience was pretty quiet: people were kind of looking and looking but you guys tried to keep...are you a fan of Julia Roberts?

AMI HASSAN: I have to say I haven't watch any of her movies -- none. [Laughter] But when she took her hat off, while she was eating, and I looked and said you know I've seen the face before. Very nice person. And her husband -- they are very quiet. The children barely said anything. I think it was shock. Basically they were just regular people.

MARCY MARKUSA: What a great little story Ami. Thanks for sharing it with us this morning. [Laughter]

AMI HASSAN: Thank you very much.

MARCY MARKUSA: Yeah you take care. Enjoy the rest of your morning.

AMI HASSAN: Bye bye.

MARCY MARKUSA: Bye bye.

CH: That's Ami Hassan who owns the Falafel Place in Winnipeg talking about his brush with fame last Sunday. Even if he didn't know who that celebrity was.

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June 19, 2019 Episode Transcript

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