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The AIH Transcript for June 18, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Chris Howden

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

CHRIS HOWDEN: Good evening, I'm Chris Howden. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

CH: Tonight:

CO: A gushing speech. Prime Minister Trudeau gives the Trans Mountain pipeline the green light. Our guest promises her Vancouver area First Nation will not stop fighting.

CH: Leading the charge for more serious charges. For years, Senator Lillian Dyck has pushed for stiffer penalties for those who commit violent crimes against Indigenous women. And the feds are finally following her advice.

CO: Clothing arguments. The head of Quebec's English School Board tells us enforcing the province's new law banning religious garb in the workplace won't just be difficult, it will be Kafkaesque.

CH: Standard procedure or cluster fuddle-duddle? Historians are shocked that Pierre Trudeau's secret file was destroyed by Canada's intelligence service, which claims it didn't meet the criteria to keep it around.

CO: Dump start. It's no guts, no glory for the eggs of a colorful Killifish, which can survive a trip through a swan's digestive system, and come out of that feathered rear end ready to hatch.

CH: And pennies envy. The world gasps as an Arizona man reveals a project he's been working on for three years: a glorious, record-breaking pyramid, made up of more than a million U.S. pennies.

CH: As It Happens, the Tuesday edition. Radio the guesses that might seem like an odd project. But it makes a surprising amount of sense.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Tran Mountain Pipeline, Bill 21 schools, penny pyramid

Trans Mountain Pipeline

Guest: Charlene Aleck

CH: Justin Trudeau has given the go-ahead to the Trans Mountain pipeline project. The Prime Minister made the announcement this afternoon at a news conference in Ottawa. He said his government followed the court's order to consult.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEU: We listened to community concerns, and we are acting on community ideas. We're working with Indigenous peoples to co-develop and implement real accommodation measures to make our environment, our coast, and our communities safer, healthier, and better protected than ever before. We have approached this decision with an open mind from the very beginning, and now it's time to take the next step. Today, I am announcing that our government has newly approved the Trans Mountain expansion project going forward.

CH: That was Prime Minister Trudeau this afternoon in Ottawa giving the green light to his government's Trans Mountain pipeline project. But Charlene Aleck doesn't think that Mr Trudeau should be quite so confident. Ms Aleck is a spokesperson for the Tsleil-Waututh Nation Sacred Trust initiative. We reached her in Vancouver.

CO: Ms. Aleck, we just heard Prime Minister Trudeau say that he's listened to communities, he's worked with them, he's approached them. The whole issue with an open mind, and now it's time to take this next step. What do you say to him?

CHARLENE ALECK: Without a doubt, I feel on behalf of our whole nation, it's no surprise that they would approve their own project. And we're really feeling the deja vu of a couple of years ago. But also, from many generations of federal government saying that they've consulted, and that they spoke with the Indigenous people, that they've listened, and that they've tried their best to mitigate any of their concerns. But they're going to go ahead and do what they want to do, and that’s build their pipeline.

CO: You say there's been no meaningful consultation. The Trudeau government argues that it has engaged in meaningful consultation. It says done, it's complied, with what the Federal Court of Appeal ordered it to do as you’re just mentioning a few years ago, and déjà vu. But it says that it’s done everything it has to do. What did that consultation look like to you?

CA: It was the same as the first round of consultation, with a limited time, and the pre-measured questions, all geared towards the government approving, and not digging deep into the concerns that we had put on the table, and that we had handed over. We knew in our hearts, and we could see that the shipper traffic and the damage to the inlet we knew in our heart those risks existed. But we got reports and documents to support that scientifically and professionally. And it feels like that landed on deaf ears.

CO: Is there anything they could have said, anything they could have done in change, that would have convinced you to allow this pipeline to go ahead?

CA: That question was asked to me earlier on today, and I said it doesn't matter who owns that or where it's running along. It doesn't change the consistency of what's in the pipeline. And that we deem as a huge risk for Tsleil-Waututh people trying to act out our life as Indigenous peoples in our territory. It’s a detrimental thing that will damage and do irreparable damage to the ecosystems that we've tried so hard to help bring back and nourish to a healthy state. And also, the shipping… sorry…

CO: I'm so sorry, but I just want to understand. So if it's bitumen. If it’s carrying bitumen, you don't want it?

CA: Yeah, investing in a fossil fuel pipeline that comes straight into the Sailors’ Sea is… yeah.

CO: So it's not just the bitumen, is any product, any fossil fuel coming through?

CA: That’s one part. That's one part. If I could say one thing, that that would be one thing. There's many other points that I can make that that doesn't make this a safe project — it bares too much risk.

CO: And so again, is there anything they could do or say that would convince you that this is okay?

CA: Flow water through it.

[both laugh]

CO: Okay, I get it. So really no, as long as it's going to have fossil fuels in it, no matter what it is, no matter what consistency, what state, that you would oppose that?

CA: Yes. Yes.

CO: Okay, what you're up against, as you know, is that they’re saying this is in the national interest. You have Indigenous communities, Nations, who are saying they're buying into it. They're going to set up… they've already set up corporations that are going to be part of this. They're interested in the business part of it. You have Alberta, the entire province has said that it needs a fair price for its bitumen. You have all that up against you. How can you stand up to all that? How can you push back against the kind of tide you're up against?

CA: How can I not when I know the risks that I am asked to bear from my family and my children? And the way that I look at it is the federal government did a very good job with the residential schools in separating and pitting First Nations against First Nations. It's like an economic smallpox happening, and to say you're going to be up against another First Nation is a good example of the work that the federal government… we didn't ask for this pipeline, and we're standing up for our inherent right to steward over our land, steward over our territory. And we see the risks that will go into the water, into the air. And the noise traffic for our relatives, the orca whale. We have that right, but more of a responsibility to have our voice heard for their sake. Because they can play out the actions as much as they can — like that mother killer whale who carried her dead baby around for 17 days — and that fell on deaf ears. And so we more than ever have to keep our voice in opposition to help them.

CO: But the Indigenous groups and Nations who are saying that they want to be part of this, they want to be stakeholders, they want to see prosperity for their communities they have. There’s Project Reconciliation, Iron Coalition, different groups feel they wanted to have a stake in this. They have a stake in it. Are you saying that they're all co-opted? That they're all being just used by the Trudeau government?

CA: I'm saying they're doing a good job by pitching it to them, and saying that we have taken care and we've taken the measures to look at their concerns. And having done their research they say or their consultation process in a fulsome way. We call their bluff. We know they have not fully looked at our concerns or the risks that Tsleil-Waututh put forward.

CO: What's your next step?

CA: This is, for me personally, working in the Sacred Trust initiative, we've always said that we would by any measure or means stand in our opposition. So everything's an option on the table, and we'll take it to leadership. We'll take it to our legal team — if we have to.

CO: We will be watching. Ms. Aleck, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CA: Stay tuned, yes. Thank you.

CH: Charlene Aleck is a spokesperson for the Tsleil-Waututh Nation Sacred trust initiative. She's in Vancouver.

[Music: Ambient]

Bill 21 schools

Guest: Russell Copeman

CH: Now that Quebec's new law on religious symbols has passed, it must be put into practice. And those on the front lines at public schools — where some teachers will now be forbidden to wear items like headscarves, turbans and kippahs — say enforcing the rules will be messy, and ugly. Leading up to Bill 21's passage, some school boards even vowed to defy the law. Russell Copeman is the head of the Quebec English School Boards Association. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Copeman, as you know, at the last minute, the Quebec government put in measures in this law to make sure it is enforced. To designate monitors who can impose sanctions. What does that mean for schools?

RUSSELL COPEMAN: Well, it's going to be a huge challenge. But I mean we sort of begin from the principle that this bill is just going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce. You have different categories of employees within public schools that will be permitted or not permitted to wear religious symbols. You have now a sort of a definition of what is a religious symbol, which leads to a great deal of interpretation. The premier, for example, was wear masks because it covers jewelry whether a wedding ring is considered a religious symbol? And initially, really couldn't answer. And how the definition is if a person considered something themselves to be a religious symbol then that’s not to be worn. So the specter of principals and vice principals wandering halls of public schools in Quebec, trying to figure out who is entitled to wear religious symbol and who isn’t is very disturbing.

CO: So how does a school actually enforce this? I mean how do they go about if say the school, the principal wants to comply, or will comply with the law, what do they do?

RC: Well, you know that's a very good question. It's going to be a huge challenge. Our association of administrators have already said that they find the bill distasteful. And picture if you will a principal or vice principal walking the halls of a school, you know there will be certain employees who can wear religious symbols, certain who cannot, depending on the category of employment, depending on when they were hired, and depending on whether they consider what they're wearing to be a religious symbol. It's a bit Kafkaesque this this whole thing. And it's not something that the school boards want to get involved in. You know there was no problem from our perspective. And you know it runs counter to the values that we teach in our schools. Principals and vice principals, it’s not something they want to do. I mean they feel very strongly that the bill is divisive and unnecessary. And so you know there's not going to be a great deal of cooperation, I don't think, from administrators in English public schools in the enforcement of this legislation.

CO: We covered this that two English school boards adopted resolutions earlier this year that they would not apply Bill 21 at their schools — that may be the reason why the Quebec government added these amendments about enforcement and penalties. So do you think that those school boards will still defy the law?

RC: Well, I think the two school boards have to look at it more closely. You know these last-minute amendments that were introduced during this closure debate may change the dynamic, may change the position. I think it's premature to tell. But you know even the sanctions that seem to be provided for in the law don't seem to be particularly enforceable either. So you know the whole thing is to use another metaphor a bit of a dog's breakfast. And it's just sending the wrong signal as far as we're concerned. You know it's already seems to be having a dampening effect on how people feel about their religious precepts, and you know wanting to become teachers about projecting an open and tolerant Quebec. So all of those things mixed in make this a very sad day for public education in Quebec.

CO: How does it affect hiring? Not just of teachers, but I mean you have school monitors, lunchroom monitors, people who volunteer. I mean how what effect does it have on the ability to recruit people to work in schools?

RC: Right. So you know the odd thing is that the provisions of the bill apply only to teachers in the school system, to teachers, vice principals, and principals. So the new hires in those categories will be informed that they must to respect the law. But you know you can have school monitors, you can have the school daycare workers in the same building down the hall who are authorized to wear these religious symbols. And that's you know part of the challenge. You know we have felt, Carol, and I think can be demonstrated that our schools have been secular for decades now. And the Quebec English School Boards Association believes in the secular nature of a public school. But to go from that to say that everybody who works or a certain category of employees who work in schools have to be secular in appearance is not logical, and it's a bridge too far.

CO: What effect does this have on the kids, on the children who are in this environment, who must feel this tension, must know if their teacher comes in wearing a hijab or a turban or a kippa that there is this issue? What effect does it have on those kids?

RC: Right. So there's already been some anecdotal evidence reported by parents, for example, that some younger students have picked up some of the elements of this debate and said you know why is Ms. so-and-so not welcome in our school? Why is Mr. so-and-so, because he wears a turban, why would he not be welcome in the classroom? And so children are not, and students are not impervious to stimuli around them. They’ve picked up some of these issues and are reflecting back their concerns, which you know are that these are wonderful teachers and wonderful people who are devoted to their profession and don't want to be put in a position where they have to decide between various precepts of their faith and their chosen profession of teaching young people.

CO: And what effect might it have on the kids and their regard for other kids, their fellow pupils who might be wearing hijabs or kippas or turbans?

RC: Right. It goes to the whole notion of what kind of a society are we? Are we are welcoming, open, and tolerant society, which I believe Quebec is, by the way. So I think this legislation generally is a bit antithetical to that vision of an open, tolerant, and inclusive Quebec society. And so it's bound to have some effect. You know the government says it won't, it shouldn't. But we're already seeing, for example, students in various faculties of education going you know if you force me to make this choice, I will not become a teacher in Quebec. And at a time when there's a teacher shortage and we need to recruit professionals, we need teachers, and we need teachers from a variety of cultural and religious backgrounds because we believe that enriches the classroom experience and enriches Quebec. You know this bill is sending the wrong signal in that regard.

CO: We will leave it there. We will be following this story. Mr. Copeman, thank you.

RC: A pleasure talking to you.

CH: Russell Copeman is the head of the Quebec English School Boards Association. He's in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

Penny pyramid

Guest: Cory Nielsen

CH: There are the mighty Pyramids at Giza, which entombed the royalty of ancient Egypt. There's the Pyramid of the Sun in Teotihuacan, Mexico. And now, there's another great structure — a new testament to the limits of human achievement: the Penny Pyramid in Cory Nielsen's garage. For the past three years, Mr. Nielsen has been working to beat the Guinness World Record for largest coin pyramid. He now believes he has piled his pennies high enough to meet that lofty goal. We reached Cory Nielsen in Phoenix, Arizona.

CO: Cory, how does it feel to have completed the largest pyramid in the world made entirely out of coins?

CORY NIELSEN: It's a relief for sure — hard to believe that I’ve finished, but a very good feeling.

CO: Okay, so that leads us to the logical question: why did you build a gigantic penny pyramid?

CN: Because I originally had opened up my big mouth and committed to a project without knowing all the details or the work that would be involved. In my office at home, I had a little pyramid of about 41-thousand pennies. Had taken pictures, shown some colleagues at work, and they had questioned. Oh, is that the world record? And I said, you know, I don't know. But if it isn't, I'll make sure it is. And then I found out just how big the world record really was. But I had already committed to it. So I started building it, and I enjoyed doing it. It was a good stress reliever.

CO: What record did you have to have to break in order to have the largest penny pyramid?

CN: Well originally, I was under the assumption that the world record was only 626,780 pennies from a guy out of Denver, Colorado. But I soon learned thereafter that the actual world record was built in Lithuania, and that was 1,000,993 pennies.

CO: How many pennies are in your pyramid?

CN: I have 1,030,315.

CO: Did you count them all?

CN: I did. I keep a spreadsheet in Excel, and so I know exactly to the penny where I'm at.

CO: How many hours a week were you in their garage working on this?

CN: I would say realistically probably 20 hours.

CO: What did your wife think of this?

CN: She's supportive of it. She stays out of the way and just looks at it every once in a while, tells me it's bigger, and I keep building on it. But she's on board.

CO: Where did you get the pennies?

CN: From my Credit Union [laughs] here in town. I had approximately 30,000 pennies donated over the three years. But the other 1,000,000 I bought on my own.

CO: Okay, so you have a lot invested in these pennies.

CN: A little bit. You know it's not going to make me or break me, but certainly once this is official to the Guinness Book of World Records, then I'll go ahead and get the pyramid turned into cash. And my Credit Union has already volunteered to send over their armored cars and help me with that.

CO: Good heavens! [dry laugh] Did you ever have any concerns because it's not glued down at all, right? They're just stacked.

CN: You know, it’s a valid concern. It's always in the back of your head hoping that there's never any earthquakes or tremors or some freak accident. But no, because the pyramid itself is so heavy. I mean it's just rock solid. It's not going to move, you know?

CO: But what if you tripped and fell into it and knocked it over? Or something dog got in there and jumped on it? I mean that's what I was thinking.

CN: Yeah, you know, and walking around it I was so proud of myself in the beginning. I had never dropped a penny. I'd never kicked it or anything — the pyramid. And then in a span of three weeks, I managed to bump into three of the corners, and I'd knocked some pennies out, but I just put them back in. The pyramid never was in jeopardy or anything like that.

CO: Now, they're finishing product, we will direct people to be able to see your video about this, but the finished product is quite interesting because you have this kind of diamond pattern of the pennies. So there's two different tones of it. How did you manage to do that?

CN: Well, the shiny pennies that you see are brand-new pennies right from the mint. They've never even been in circulation. And the darker patterns that you see are pennies that have been in circulation but are dirtier or more worn than the normal penny. So as I was sorting through the pennies, I would pull out the darker ones, knowing that I would need them from my outside pattern. But you can imagine when you're spending that much time building on the pyramid, you have a lot of thoughts going through your head; you're doing a lot of thinking. So I had a lot of patterns kind of flashing through my head, and I decided to go with this one. And, thankfully, it worked out just as I had envisioned it would.

CO: That was your vision?

CN: It was.

CO: Okay, I'm thinking you got teased a lot. I mean did people that buy your garage and say penny for your thoughts, Cory?

CN: You know, no one in my neighborhood or in this area knows about it. It's been kept a secret you know because of the value. Now, my co-workers and colleagues, they're completely supportive. You know they talk about it all the time. You know they'll leave a couple of pennies on my keyboard here and there. So I was never teased or harassed or anything like that, but it wouldn't have mattered.

CO: You know if you're in Canada, you couldn't do this because we don't have pennies anymore. You'd have to do it out of quarters or dimes or nickels.

CN: That’s my understanding. And, in fact, I pulled out a lot of Canadian pennies when building the pyramid because I just wanted to use the U.S. pennies.

CO: You wouldn't allow any Canadian pennies into the pyramid?

CN: Well, with the Guinness Book of World Records, part of their stipulation are you have to use the same currency. it can't be mixed currency. It can't be mixed coins. It has to be all the same.

CO: So what's next for you?

CN: You know, I am entertaining an idea and will be in negotiations with one of the local casinos here, but I would like very much to build a pyramid out of quarters — a little over a million dollars’ worth of quarters, a little over four-point-one-million quarters — but I'd like to do it in a public forum you know under heavy security where the public can see it being constructed daily.

CO: Wow! [laughs] But don't do that in your garage, okay?

CN: No, no, of course not. Too much money.

CO: All right, well good luck with your pyramids there, Cory.

CN: Well, thank you very much for the time you've given me, and it was certainly a pleasure speaking with you.

CO: All right, take care.

CN: You as well.

CH: Cory Nielsen believes he now holds the world record for largest coin pyramid. We reached him in Phoenix, Arizona. As Carol mentioned, to see a time lapse video of Mr. Nielsen's penny pyramid, check out our website: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: percussive jazz]

Part two: MMIWG: Lillian Dyck, Pierre Trudeau CSIS

MMIWG: Lillian Dyck

Guest: Lillian Dyck

CH: For years, Independent Senator Lillian Dyck has been pushing for harsher sentences for those who attack Indigenous women. Now, in the wake of the report into the Missing and Murdered, the government is finally acting. Yesterday, Justice Minister David Lametti said that Ottawa will adopt changes requiring judges to consider stiffer penalties for violent crimes against Indigenous women. Some are worried about the fairness of that decision. Senator Dyck is welcoming it. In fact, she proposed the amendments. We reached her in Ottawa.

CO: Senator Dyck, why should those who commit acts of violence against Indigenous women why should they be treated differently by the courts?

LILLIAN DYCK: Well, the way it is now, the families have told us, and we actually have some data that demonstrates, when it’s a female Aboriginal victim, at least for homicide, that the charges are downgraded more often. So it's more often manslaughter, as opposed to second-degree or first-degree murder. And also when it's a female Aboriginal victim, the time that the perpetrator gets until he gets parole is actually shorter. So there's definitely some it looks like some kind of systemic discrimination within the justice system. So by drawing attention to it and making Aboriginal female identity essentially an aggravating factor, then it ensures that the Aboriginal female victim is given consideration and treated more fairly.

CO: You have been trying to get this into law for some years now. You pushed for this back in 2015. Why was it resisted, why was it rejected then? In fact, it was just earlier this year that it was defeated.

LD: Well, it was defeated in April, and I think that the main obstacle has been and was up until the report came out from the national inquiry was that, of course, people are used to the Section 718, 2E of the Criminal Code, which is sort of called the Gladue Provisions, wherein for all offenders, especially for Aboriginal offenders, the court tries to find a way to divert the offender to treatment other than imprisonment. You know addictions treatment or some other way because we all know that, unfortunately, our prisons are full of Aboriginal offenders. And this was a way to try to reduce the numbers and the time that Aboriginal offenders spend in prison. But that provision has worked against all Aboriginal victims essentially because it's only for the perpetrator. So that was the obstacle. But the testimony from Chief Commissioner Buller at the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee was very clear that the Gladue Provision had to be balanced in order to get fair treatment for Indigenous female victims, as well as for gender-diverse people.

CO: But as you already suggested, I mean I mean domestic violence against Indigenous women is quite often the perpetrators are Indigenous men, who are already dramatically and drastically overrepresented in the prison system. So isn't this not inevitably if there are stiffer sentences for this violence against the women and longer sentences, does that not just mean that there'll be more Indigenous men in prison?

LD: Well, it could be. But the judge could also I mean there's a myriad of factors that have to be taken into account. But on the other hand, why should it be a shorter sentence when it's an Aboriginal female victim? How could they possibly be fair to an Aboriginal female victim when she's assaulted by an Aboriginal male and he gets some kind of special consideration, but she doesn't?

CO: Isn't it quite often though that the circumstances that the justice system considers is that whatever that the offender has gone through that perhaps some kind of addiction assistance, some sort of restorative justice, something thing more like the Aboriginal view of justice is more healing and more appropriate?

LD: That's what it's supposed to do. But, unfortunately, I don't think that's actually the case. Although the Gladue provisions were put into law, the alternative programming has not been put into place to allow that diversion into addictions treatment or into you know sort of treatments for sex offenders and that kind of thing. So the programs that should be there are not necessarily there. And for victims of sexual abuses, probably especially when it's an intimate partner, you also need to protect the safety of those women. So one of the best ways to protect them is to take the abuser away, and put them in a prison. Otherwise, the woman can still be re-victimized. We should also note that when it comes to murder, we don't know about sexual assault, but when it comes to the murder of females with Indigenous female victims, it's something like a third of the people who murder Indigenous females are not Indigenous. It's about two-thirds Indigenous, and one-third not Indigenous.

CO: Sorry, are those non-Indigenous offenders are they getting the same reduced sentences and same treatment as the as the Aboriginal offenders?

LD: Well, the number I quoted to you was the perpetrators in total. And, in fact, we did try to separate out it out according to non-Indigenous and Indigenous perpetrators. The numbers are small. But in the case where it was an Indigenous victim, the years to parole were about half of what they were when it was a non-Indigenous victim.

CO: Hmm, interesting.

LD: So there's a complex gender race interaction depending on the gender and race of both the victim and the perpetrator.

CO: So if I understand, you're saying it's possible it's not just that the justice system takes into consideration Indigenous principles in order to have a lighter sentence. It might also be that there is this built-in bias against the Indigenous victims?

LD: Yes, and you know it's one of the things that one of the witnesses for the Indigenous Bar Association, I think it was Katherine Hensel, she put on the record that Indigenous woman, unlike any other woman in Canada, are in a unique position because of colonisation, because of Indian residential schools, and there is, unfortunately, a very negative stereotype about Indigenous women, you know? And, unfortunately, it seems to come out at Halloween. And this last Halloween, there were images of Indigenous women who were like Pocahontas, but with a bullet through her forehead.

CO: Good heavens!

LD: I mean they're seen as disposable, dispensable, sexually available. And if you sexually assault or murder them, then nobody cares.

CO: Senator Dyck, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

LD: You're most welcome. Have a good day.

CO: You too.

CH: Lillian Dyck is an Independent Senator from Saskatchewan. She was in Ottawa.

[Music: Sombre]

John Mitchel obit

CH: He was known as "the grandfather of Canadian craft beer." And this week, friends and family of John Mitchell are raising a glass and saying farewell to the brewing pioneer. Mr. Mitchell died this past Sunday, at the age of 89. He was born in Singapore, and raised in England, before coming to Canada when he was 24. His love of British ales spurred him to co-found Horseshoe Bay Brewing in Vancouver in 1982. It's widely regarded as Canada's first microbrewery. And it was there — and at the Troller Pub across the street — that Mr. Mitchell and his partners pioneered their methods, and debuted their Bay Ale. In the years since, Mr. Mitchell continued to advocate for the craft beer industry — and his fellow brewers. From 1982, here's John Mitchell giving the CBC a tour of the brewery — and the brewing process:

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN MITCHEL: What you're seeing here is just a small brewery. Everything that is in this room was manufactured here in Canada, except for four tanks that we did bring from Britain. But this is the brew kettle, although it's lined with wood, it’s stainless steel. And there’s insulation there. And all it is a glorified saucepan with a fire underneath it. We can brew 200-gallon batches in here at a time, and we bring the water to a 160 degrees in here. And then we pump it across to this mash tun. And once we've got about 170 gallons in here, we move the grinder in position, our little mill, and we grind malted barley, and crystallized barley.

[Sound: Machinery]

JM: And so it's pure malted barley in here. It stays in the mashed tun for an hour-and-a-half, until all the hot water has extracted all the water and the syrups and sugars from the grain. We then pump it back to the brew kettle, where we bring it to the boil, add our hops, boil it until we get it what we call a good hop break, and that is all the protein has been coagulated. All the oils have been extracted from the hops. It's pumped then through a heat exchanger, which drops the temperature from about 212 — boiling point — down to about 70 degrees. It's quite a unique little unit. This comes from New Zealand, and it's what the New Zealand farmers use for cooling their milk down. And it's being pumped there as you see into the stainless steel fermenters over here, where it remains in fermentation for five days. And when fermentation ceases, it's pumped into this room over here, where the fans are running. And it's put into these conditioning tanks with some gelatin to settle out to clarify for one week. And then we pump it from there into the kegs. We keg up on the brewery floor, where we add sugar and a little more gelatin to clarify it. But the sugar stimulates the secondary fermentation to generate this perfectly natural CO2. From there, it's remains in the keg for a week, and then from there it goes to the pub, and that’s it.

CH: From 1982, that's craft beer pioneer John Mitchell speaking to the CBC's Greg Middleton. Mr. Mitchell died this past Sunday. He was 89.

[Music: Folk]

Pierre Trudeau CSIS

Guest: John English

JD: When it comes to Pierre Trudeau -- it turns out we'll never know what we didn't know. Recently, the Canadian Press requested the secret cold war dossier that was prepared by domestic intelligence agents on the former Prime Minister. To their surprise, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service replied that the spy service didn't have it. In fact, it had been destroyed by the agency back in 1989. John English is a historian who wrote an authorized biography of Pierre Trudeau. We reached him in Toronto.

CO: John, what did you think when you learned that Canada's spy agency destroyed this secret file on Pierre Trudeau?

JOHN ENGLISH: Well, I was astonished. I couldn't believe it happened. But obviously, it did. And the reasons they gave for the destruction were to be frank, rather unconvincing.

CO: Did you know that there was such a file?

JE: Oh yeah, yes. There would have been, and it would have been files on Trudeau very obviously because he was prime minister and there's security considerations. But before he was prime minister, he was someone that the security officials would have looked at. And we knew that there was an extensive FBI file on Trudeau started when he first visited the Soviet Union in 1952. It was just very likely that there would have been a rather fat file on Trudeau.

CO: I mean this would be a cold war era report, right?

JE: Exactly.

CO: So what would be in there? Because now some of it probably would seem quite would seem quite silly and surprising. So what do you think would have been of concern at the time?

JE: Well, I think the interest of the FBI started in 1951. And probably there was some earlier material on Trudeau because of his involvement against the Second World War. Clearly, that was something that officials would have watched. But in 1951 he planned a trip to the Soviet Union, and Hoover started to watch him then. And the Canadians would have done the same thing. And then he went to Moscow, met our excellent ambassador there Robert Ford, and argued for a middle way between communism and capitalism. And he met a wife of one of the American embassy officials there, and she said I thought you were a communist. And he said yes I am, but I'm also a Roman Catholic. And then he taunted her with remarks that were favourable to the Soviet Union. Well, she reported it to the American embassy. And Ford heard about it the next day. And, of course, it was Trudeau being at his outrageous best. But I am absolutely certain that we know that Hoover took it seriously. I'm equally certain that Canadian officials did too.

CO: But he also it wasn't just the Soviet Union in Moscow, I mean he had quite a romantic view of China, uncritical of Mao Zedong — and, of course, Cuba, and Fidel Castro, his friend.

JE: Exactly. Yes, he had a red flag above his head. And he did tour China with Jock Hubert famously, but also with Madeleine Parent, one of the great left-wing organizers in Quebec, who was thought by the RCMP to be a Marxist, which practically she was. And he associated with people on the left, and he would have been identified by certain factions of the RCMP certainly as a sympathizer with those views. And as you said, he took a famous boat trip to Cuba. And that would have aroused suspicion too. So my guess is the file was very fat.

CO: But now you know a lot of this. You've researched it. Your volumes on Trudeau are fascinating. So you have this information anyways. Was there anything in the file do you think that that you wouldn't have known?

JE: I think there probably was, Carol. I can't imagine what it would have been. I discovered in his own papers that he went to a psychiatrist in Paris in 1947, a very eminent psychiatrist. And he kept the records of the consultation. And that was of great importance in understanding his personality. And Pierre Trudeau contains multitudes. And my guess is something would have been there that would have been of interest. But I can't put myself in the mind of the person(s) who destroyed it. And I talked to senior archivists, and they said normally in a situation like this the National Archivist would've been consulted. After all, Pierre Trudeau was not an insignificant figure in Canada in 1989.

CO: But now, CSIS says it destroyed the file back in 1989 because it fell short of a legal threshold for retention. At some level, isn't that an encouraging bit of news that they wouldn't keep something that they felt that was an invasion of privacy and should not be retained? I mean isn't that a good thing perhaps?

JE: Well, I don't think it was their decision. I looked at the National Archives Act, and I consulted with senior archivists, former archivists, and they disagree with that point of view. And the National Archives Act makes it clear that material involving a significant personality should be retained. It can only be destroyed with the permission of the National Archivist, and the National Archivist clearly was not consulted.

CO: Because CSIS and RCMP were often at loggerheads, and CSIS didn't look kindly how the RCMP security service had run. Do you think that they just decided well, it was a kind of criticism of how the RCMP had done their work?

JE: I think that you may have something there. One of the historians who commented said he had looked through two or three of the files on political leaders. And what is said about the people who were doing the investigating is far more damaging than what is said about the individual. And I think that may be the case here that the individuals who made the decision looked at the file and thought isn't this embarrassing. I have a great suspicion there was stuff about homosexuality, which of course, was illegal until Pierre Trudeau came along, and rumors of homosexuality and Trudeau were common in the 1968 campaign or in the newspaper in Quebec. And Claude Ryan openly stated he was not a homosexual. That's quite extraordinary. So my guess is that type of thing did appear in the file, and they did mention privacy. And that might have been something in the minds of the individual. This is this is private details about Trudeau. And maybe one can imagine the individuals let's destroy this stuff about women he dated who might have been security risk. And maybe that's why they destroyed it because of that. But still, it's unfortunate. It's a very unfortunate decision.

CO: The spy agency does not belong in the bedrooms of the nation, I guess?

JE: [slight laugh] that's well put.

CO: John, thank you.

JE: Thank you, Carol. Bye.

JD: We reached John English in Toronto. We requested comment from CSIS. The agency responded, in part, that, quote: "During the review of the file in 1988, CSIS assessed whether the retention of the records in question was required under...the CSIS Act....it was then reviewed against the criteria set by the Public Archives of Canada. When it was then determined to not meet the criteria...CSIS permanently destroyed the file in 1989." Unquote.

[Music: upbeat instrumental]

Hot Child in the City

CH: The year was 1978. A hungry, sociopathic cat named "Garfield" made his debut in newspapers. On P.E.I, Bennett Campbell replaced Alexander B. Campbell — no relation — as Premier. And the first LaserDisc players showed up in dozens of living rooms across the continent. And in this tumultuous year, one hit song spent twenty-one weeks crawling up the Billboard charts — all the way to Number One. In Canada, it won two Junos. In the U.S., a People's Choice Award. The singer was Nick Gilder. The song: "Hot Child in the City". Tonight, that song — co-written by Mr. Gilder and James McCullough — will be inducted into the Canadian Songwriters' Hall of Fame, at a special ceremony in Vancouver. And Mr. Gilder will be there to perform it. Of course, it's a catchy tune. But there's a story behind the song. The songwriters wrote it after witnessing child prostitution in Hollywood. More recently, Nick Gilder explained to "Words & Music" magazine, quote: "L.A. was a magnet for people trying to find themselves. We wanted to write this song about what we'd experienced and seen". Unquote. Well, now you understand it better.

[Music: Sombre]

Part three: Gilles Duceppe coroner report, killifish study

Mitch McConnell

CH: Few would argue about the disastrous effects of slavery in the United States. But lawmakers there are divided on the subject of reparations. Tomorrow, the House Judiciary subcommittee will begin hearings into whether to establish a commission to study the impact of slavery. If it is established, the commission would also make recommendations regarding, quote, "any form of apology and compensation," unquote. Today, U.S. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell explained why he's against reparations. I

SOUNDCLIP

MITCH MCCONNELL: I don't think reparations for something that happened 150 years ago for whom none of us currently living are responsible is a good idea. We've you know tried to deal with our original sin of slavery by fighting a civil war. By passing landmark civil rights legislation. We've elected an African-American president. I think we're always a work in progress in this country, but no one currently alive was responsible for that. And I don't think we should be trying to figure out how to compensate for it. First of all, it'd be pretty hard to figure out how to compensate. We've had waves of immigrants as well who've come to the country and experienced dramatic discrimination of one kind or another. So no, I don't think reparations are a good idea.

CH: That's U.S. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell speaking earlier today.

[Music: Instrumental]

Gilles Duceppe coroner report

Guest: Denis Boudrias

CH: It was an accident that could've been prevented — at many stages along the way. That's the conclusion a coroner in Montreal shared today, about the death of Helene Rowley Hotte Duceppe. She was the 93-year-old mother of former Bloc Quebecois leader Gilles Duceppe. She died in January, after being locked out of her care home, the Lux Governor Residence. The temperature was minus-32 that night. Ms. Duceppe froze to death. Now, Gilles Duceppe and his family are considering legal action against the care home. Denis Boudrias is a former Quebec coroner who has been following the case. We reached him in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Boudrias, as a former coroner, how do you react to the tragic circumstances behind the death of Gilles Duceppe’s mother?

DENIS BOUDRIAS: Well the disease of Mrs. Duceppe is awful. If you look at the circumstances, she'd been outside in winter at minus-30 degrees, and nobody would help her or could see her there. And she she was a woman of 93 years of age. Andshe stood outside for four or five hours.

CO: As you pointed out, Madame Duceppe was 93 when she froze to death outside the facility. Dow did this night unfold? How did she end up being locked out?

DB: Well, she heard first a message, an audio signal saying that there was a fire alarm. So she got out of her apartment on the second floor, and she put her coat and boots I believe, and she took the first door close to her apartment where it was said exit. When you open that door, there's about 20 stairs going down between two walls. And at the bottom of the stairs there's a panic door saying exit. So she opened that door, and then she got outside, and the door closed, and it cannot be opened from the outside. And this is a confined area, which was not used at the time of the incident. So there was no way she could get inside. But the complex where she lived, they had cameras, so they could see her. And the coroner in the inquest made by the police we see her for four hours on the screen, where she’s trying to warm herself, trying to open the door, and different maneuvers.

CO: But why didn’t the staff respond to that? If they could see, this is what the report shows, that she was clearly on the security camera image. Why didn't they go and get her?

DB: Well, that's because they didn't look at the screens.

CO: And was no one checking to see if everyone was all right after the alarm was off? Did no one visit the rooms to see in this seniors residents to make sure everyone was it was back in their rooms?

DB: Well, apparently, the visited some rooms. There was supposed to be a roll call, but the inquest showed that there was no roll call. So how could they know? The reason that they found her at 11:40 is they have a movement detector in the rooms. And that their ruling is that if after 12 hours they don't have any sign, they go and check the room. You can imagine that 12 hours if you have a stroke or anything, and they come to see you 12 hours after, chances are the question will be several, and not for the best.

CO: I guess part of it was that Mrs. Duceppe had a strong, visceral fear of fires — that she was very nervous about the possibility of fire, is that right?

DB: Well, what I see from the coroner's report, she was afraid of fire. Was it that strong? I don't know, could be. But when somebody in the middle of the night tells you there is a fire, you don't ask for details, you just get out of there, and then you ask questions. And there she was out, but the door was closed. And not only nobody did see on the cameras, but she was at about all time on site on the screen, outside a few moments where she was out of the range of the camera. The coroner's report is that she was moving, trying to open the door, lying down, moving a little, and the last time they saw moving, it was 10:11. Imagine she has been there since 4:58. And at 10:11, she was still moving her legs. And then at 11-to, to the next image, we see her completely frozen, and not moving at all.

CO: We should remind people that temperature was with windchill minus-32 that night.

DB: Something like that, yeah.

CO: And, apparently, the care home has never apologised to the family for what happened to the mother.

DB: That's a fact. They have never apologized, and they're trying to put the blame on the fireman. Unfortunately, in the coroner's report, there's not much about the firemen about what they did, at what time exactly they arrived, and what was their reaction? But still, the owner of the place never looked at the cameras he had. He had people working there. The building was not evacuated. So the people working at security worked all night. So between 4:12 and 11:40, when they found her, most of the time there was somebody who could be looking and cameras at the screen, but nobody was apparently.

CO: This is just an awful story, and a horrible death.

DB: It is an awful story. Just imagine, they could have just go and inspect after the firemen had left, or even the firemen with them, they could have opened any one of the six panic doors and looked behind if there was somebody, and there she was. She was back to the door at one time. But she was always in the range of the camera, so they could see her if only they had looked.

CO: Yeah, just hopefully some lessons have been learned from many homes who are following this story. Mr. Boudrias, thank you so much for giving us this analysis.

DB: It's been my pleasure, Carol.

CO: Thank you so much. Bye-bye

DB: Thank you. Bye-bye.

CH: Denis Boudrias is a former Quebec coroner. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

Titanic sub

CH: The very rich adventurers who planned to live out their James Cameron fantasies will now have to make other vacation plans. A company called OceanGate Expeditions signed up dozens of so-called 'mission specialists' — tourists, in other words, who paid more than a hundred thousand dollars each for a submarine tour of the Titanic. Unfortunately for them, the company has abruptly canceled its first expedition — which was to depart from St. John's in two weeks. OceanGate is blaming another company for withdrawing the ship that was to ferry the passengers and the submersible to the wreck site. Passengers... pardon me... mission specialists have been assured that the trip will go ahead — in a year's time. When the idea was first floated in 2017, Carol spoke to OceanGate Expeditions CEO Stockton Rush.

SOUNDCLIP

SR: It's not a luxury trip. They're not going to be treated like they might when they go to a five-star resort. It's very much being part of the crew and doing something to advance the knowledge about the Titanic.

CO: OK, so if I'm a mission specialist what happens? How do I make this trip?

SR: For the formal trip you'd meet up in St. John's on a Thursday night. On Friday, you would go through helicopter underwater egress training.

because the next day, you get on a Sikorsky S-76 helicopter and fly from St. John's out to rendezvous point with the offshore supply vessel, which is a 90 meter ship. And then you will transit from that point out to the Titanic because there are no helicopters that can make it all the way to the Titanic site. And then the next day you'll be diving and we will dive every day for the next three days and we have a fourth spare.

CO: So how much time do you actually spend in the submarine?

SR: Well, on the dive days you'll spend eight to ten hours in the submarine.

CO: How cramped is that?

SR: It's actually for a small sub it's luxurious. So it is about the same size inside as the Apollo 11 command module. It's sort of like a suburban without the seats in it. So you know for five people it's quite comfortable.

CO: And you’re going to take them 4,000 meters below sea level. OK, what could go wrong?

SR: What could go wrong? What's not to like? You know this sub has been we've tested a number of versions of the carbon fiber hull. We will test the entire pressure vessel, so that the real challenge with a deep diving submersible is to make sure that the pressure vessel stays intact. Almost everything else that we use if we have thrusters fail or we have other system problems we can get back to the surface. Really the critical item is make sure that the that the hull stays together and we're quite confident that with the engineering we've done and we monitor it all the time. We have strain gauges and acoustic sensors so we can tell if there's a problem.

CO: What's the thing that people most want to see when they go on something like?

SR: The bow. I think every dive will start with coming up on the bow because that I think for most people they remember the last Titanic movie and the shots of the mirrors coming up over the bow. And then that image of Kate Winslet and Leonardo DiCaprio in front of the bow. That's something that I think resonates with everyone.

CO: Are they prepared for that it's not going to look quite like it did in the movie?

SR: Well, it looks like the underwater shots. But yes, it will look different. And I hope they're prepared for that.

CO: 1,500 people perished in that trek. So are they aware that there remains anything left of people?

SR: No, no, the ocean is pretty good at consuming biological stuff like people, but it is a grave site. It is a UNESCO underwater heritage site. We're not going to touch anything. We're not going to take anything. And we believe we and we plan to treat it like we would Normandy or Gettysburg or any other place where a lot of people died. So it is very eerie though because the clothing will remain, particularly things like rubber boots and things like that. But the bodies have been consumed by all the marine organisms.

CH: That was part of Carol's 2017 conversation with Stockton Rush — who sold tickets for a submarine trip to the wreck of the Titanic. This week, his company announced that the expedition has been delayed until 2020.

[Music: Pop]

Killifish study

Guest: Andy Green

CH: It's been said that the journey is more important than the destination. That's supposed to encourage us to persist — and overcome obstacles. That's all fine and dandy, unless you're a killifish egg. Then, that journey may include being eaten by a swan, travelling through its digestive system, and — if you're lucky — re-emerging in a piece of swan poop, where you may one day hatch and thrive. That's according to an international team of researchers, who've just published a study in the journal Ecology. Among them is Andy Green, a professor with the Spanish Council for Science. We reached him in Oxford, England.

CO: Professor Green, I guess there is finding the best in a bad situation. And then there is searching through Swan poop for fish embryos. So what motivated this study?

ANDY GREEN: Well, I've been interested for a long time and understanding what kind of organisms actually can move around inside waterfowl — especially things like fish that don't have the ability to jump between Lakes on their own, but also plants and a lot of invertebrates in the same situation.

CO: We know that the seeds from plants can move around to all kinds of animals and birds, right? So that they eat the seeds of a plant, and then those seeds end up growing someplace else because of the poop, but what made you think that actually might be for animals as well?

AG: Well, because I've been working in this area for a long time. And it's the most frequent question I've had over the years is whether or not fish move around via birds? And then it just turned out that we did actually find some eggs in some frozen poop. And then so that really gave us evidence that there might really be something going on.

CO: You just happened to be looking through that poop, or were you actually looking for fish embryos?

AC: Well, when we collect poop, we generally take a look to see what kind of things we can find in there. So at that time, we were really looking to see what kind of plants could come through. And then we realized there was some eggs in there. So we did the experiment with the eggs.

CO: Okay, these eggs, these fish embryos were eaten by the swans. They went through the whole digestive tract, went out to the poop. I mean why didn’t they get digested?

AC: Well, because digestion is not a perfect process. So for any organisms, including humans, it's more efficient to eat at regular intervals and digest the food partially. I mean there’s a limited volume for how much food can be inside the intestines, right? And the longer it's in there, the less efficient the digestion becomes. So it actually works out to be better to get the food going through quite quickly, digest all the easy stuff, and then the harder stuff comes out the other end.

CO: [gross laugh] Okay, and it was your job to find out what comes out the other end?

AC: Yeah. Basically, and from time to time, some eggs can get through. Most of them get digested. I mean in the the experiment we used 600 eggs, and it was only five as I said before that actually came out alive.

CO: Okay, so five came out alive. How many of them actually hatched?

AC: Just one. It's a bit amazing really. But we had a fungal infection in the lab. And this particular kind of fish does take a long time to develop. So if they were fish that only took a few days to hatch, then probably all five of them would have hatched.

CO: You were looking at killifish, right?

AC: That's right. They're known for an ability to survive in the mud when a pond dries out, so they may be perhaps more resistant to digestion than eggs of other fish, maybe.

CO: And so in this case, you found that was true. But then do you think other fish embryos, fish eggs, could actually survive that journey?

AC: I think it's certainly worth looking into that. We do hope to do more experiments with other fish just to try and find out how widespread this process is.

CO: Why does it matter?

AC: Well, because you know biodiversity is under threat. And with the climate crisis, it’s becoming increasingly important for species to move quickly from one place to another — especially sort of towards the poles, you know? in a northwards movement in the northern hemisphere as temperatures increase. So most of these organisms won't be able to move fast enough, unless they can get help from the birds, so we really need to know what kind of organisms can move with the birds.

CO: Does it also tell you how sometimes a fish can end up in another place where there's no logical stream for them to have moved through?

AC: Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of people who work with fish often experienced them in places where they can't explain how they got there. And for that reason, there has been a lot of speculation for decades about whether or not eggs can get stuck on the outside of birds. But we're the first people to actually find that they can actually move on the inside.

CO: But again, I guess the problem is sometimes the invasive species, very strong species like Killifish, or I guess carp I'm also thinking, can you take advantage of this of this carriage system.

AC: Well, that's something we have to look at. For sure, it's possible that invasive species can also spread in this way. But again, that's another reason for doing the research, right? So we can really try to understand and predict how alien species can spread.

CO: What do you want to find out next? What's the next in your research?

AC: Well, right now, we're looking at all kinds of plants. For example, what's really interesting even in Canada, for example, is the question you know how many how many of the plants actually move inside birds? Because most of the textbooks only talk about the plants that actually have a berry you know or a fleshy fruit. But what we're finding is that the waterfowl are massively important for the dispersal of a whole range of plants. But we need to really identify which ones they are. So we need to build up a list. So we're working very hard with that. And as you said, we're also going to start to look at other fish, and very possibly look at carp themselves to see whether or not they can disperse through the birds.

CO: Well, it should give us a whole new appreciation of swan poop.

AC: Yeah. It doesn't smell that bad actually. Nowhere near as bad as dog poop.

[both laugh]

CO: Professor Green, thank you.

AC: Thank you. My pleasure.

CH: Andy Green is a visiting professor with the Spanish Council for Science. We reached him in Oxford, England.

[Music: hip-hop]

Hell, Michigan

CH: The Trump Administration angered a lot of people this month by refusing to let embassies fly rainbow Pride flags. Some diplomats have tried to find creative ways around the ban, attaching rainbow balloons and banners to the outside of embassy buildings. But you know where you can hoist a Pride flag with no problems? In Hell. Gay Hell. I'm not trying to be rude. I promise you, that's the name of the town: Hell, Michigan. Now known — at least for the time being — as Gay Hell. Michigan. Elijah Daniel, a 25-year-old rapper, comedian and LGBTQ activist, says he has temporarily purchased the town of Hell. His first order of business was to rename it "Gay Hell." His second was to mandate that only Pride flags may be flown there. He swears that's a joke — you can fly other flags there if you like -- but he is very serious about protesting the Trump Administration's rainbow flag ban. This is not the first time we've told you about Hell, Michigan on this show. In 2016, Carol interviewed the town's unofficial mayor, John Colone, when he first put Hell up for sale. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

CO: Mr. Colone, how the hell are you?

JOHN COLONE: I'm just fine, and how the hell’s everything in Canada today?

CO: What's the weather doing there in Hell?

JC: Oh, a little cloudy, and a high of about 42-degrees only right now.

CO: What is there to do in Hell?

JC: You know, we’re Halloween 365 days a year. We have one of Michigan's largest miniature golf courses. We do Hellbilly golf a lot of times. We made our own clubs, and you golf with we paint walnuts white, and that's what you play with. So the six-year-old is just as good as his dad. We have a wedding chapel. We've done about 17 weddings so far this year. A marriage that starts in Hell has nowhere to go but up. We guarantee every marriage if it doesn't work, we'll do it again free for you and your next partner.

CO: And so how do you get to Hell? Is there a bus, or maybe a boat on a river someplace?

JC: Well, no. Not exactly. We have D32, the highway to Hell. It’s paved with good intentions, but it does have a few potholes — just like life itself.

CO: And how many souls live in Hell?

JC: It's 72. It's made up of Hellions, Heillbillies, and wannabes.

CO: Who are the wannabes in hell?

JC: Right now, you want to be in here.

CO: I don't know you. Apparently, you're selling Hell for 999,666 dollars.

JC: Well, you know, I'm 70 years old. Isn't it time to retire?

CO: Well, that's a lot of money for Hell.

JC: You've not seen our beautiful five acres, and what it produces.

CO: All right, give me the pitch. What would I get if I was to buy Hell from you?

JC: Are you familiar at all with our university?

CO: You have a university in Hell?

JC: Yeah, Damn U. Fully non-credited. We have degrees in everything from stupidity, people with great hindsight, duct tapeology. So they’d own our university, our wedding chapel, our miniature golf, our stores, you know a bar.

CO: So what does your wife think about you selling Hell?

JC: Ask me what she thought about me buying it. She’s still pissed off. She’s held a grudge for 15 years.

CO: So does she want to get the hell out of Hell?

JC: You're right, yup.

CO: she does, eh? Okay, but you think you're going to live there after you sell Hell?

JC: You know, we'd like to downsize. She want to live in the city far away from Hell. And I'd love to just build on a couple acres, relaxing, goof around.

CO: All right. Well, we will tell people where they can go to Hell, and how they can go to Hell. Good to talk to you.

JC: Well, thank you so much. And have a hell of a good day.

CH: That's part of Carol's 2016 conversation with John Colone, the unofficial mayor of Hell, Michigan. Comedian Elijah Daniel has temporarily bought the town from Mr. Colone, and renamed it "Gay Hell," to protest the US Administration's ban of LGBTQ Pride flags at its embassies.

[Music: Chowder song]

Chowder popsicle

CH: "Oh, sweet friends! hearken to me. It was made of small juicy clams, scarcely bigger than hazel nuts, mixed with pounded ship biscuit, and salted pork cut up into little flakes; the whole enriched with butter, and plentifully seasoned with pepper and salt." The words of the narrator of Herman Melville's "Moby-Dick" — let's call him Ishmael. And he's right: New England clam chowder is great on a cold night. But if it's your go-to winter comfort food, the spring and summer are long, bleak, chowderless months. But it doesn't have to be that way. Witness, if you will, the chowder popsicle. There it was, tucked away on Reddit: a photo of Campbell's Chunky New England Clam Chowder, neatly frozen on a stick — with all the celery, carrots, and small juicy clams (scarcely bigger than hazel nuts) clearly visible. It would have stayed hidden on that Boston subreddit if Boston Magazine hadn't discovered it, and tweeted it — with a link to an article entitled "Gaze Upon the Chunky Clam Chowder Popsicle and Despair." And now everyone is gagging about it on Twitter. But if you're grossed out about its existence, remember you don't have to make it. And if you're relieved about its existence, stick a batch in the freezer right now. Either way, I guess, it's cold comfort.

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June 18, 2019 episode transcript

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