Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The AIH Transcript for June 4, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Daemon Fairless

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

DAEMON FAIRLESS: Good evening. I'm Daemon Fairless. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

DF: Tonight...

CO: Striking what struck them. A House of Commons committee votes to scrub the record of a Conservative MPs remarks after he quoted the manifesto of the man accused of mass murder at two New Zealand mosques.

DF: The worst of her recollection. 30 years after the Tiananmen Square massacre, an activist who was there remembers the hope for change that preceded it and reflects on what if anything has changed since.

CO: A bull's-eye view. In Syria's Idlib province, Russian and Syrian forces have bombed 25 hospitals in four weeks -- doctors believe those hospitals may have made themselves targets.

DF: Reefer badness. An enormous facility in Gatineau, Quebec, produces a third of the province's cannabis and an unholy stench that's becoming a chronic problem for residents.

CO: Pandora's boxers. The intruder who broke into Kym Abrook's house had no idea what he was unleashing until he was being chased by a man in his underwear swinging a didgeridoo.

DF: And where there's a swill, there's a way. And this past weekend our guest swam through that swill specifically New York's Hudson River to complete the Triple Crown of open water swimming. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that believes she should be showered with praise and praised for showering.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Doctors say Syrian hospitals targeted after sharing co-ordinates with United Nations

Justice Committee: Hate

Guest: Randy Boissonnault

DF: This morning a House of Commons committee took an unusual step: the members of the Justice Committee voted to scrub the official record of comments made by a Conservative MP. Last week during testimony from the representative of an Alberta Muslim group, Alberta MP Michael Cooper quoted the manifesto of the man accused of the Christchurch shootings. Mr. Cooper later apologized -- and the Conservative leader has kicked him off the committee. But Randy Boissonnault doesn't think that's enough. Mr. Boissonnault is the Liberal MP who put forward today's motion -- and he's calling for Michael Cooper to be removed from the Conservative caucus. We reached Mr. Boissonnault in Ottawa.

CO: Mr. Boissonnault why did you think it was necessary to expunge Mr. Cooper's quote from the official record?

RANDY BOISSONNAULT: Well Carol I think it's important for Canadians to understand that when we have comments that are that egregious, that inappropriate, and that are that hurtful and discriminatory, that it's up to parliamentarians to make a decision and decide if they should stay on the record. And today at the Justice Committee following my motion we had unanimous support from the Liberals and from the New Democrats and the Conservatives abstained. So this issue will now go before the House.

CO: But as you say the Conservatives on the committee abstained, and the Member of Parliament John Brassard said that Mr. Cooper had apologised, he has been removed from the Justice Committee, and he says that your motion was quote, "nothing more than a stunt." How do you respond?

RB: Well I don't think that the way that Mr. Cooper treated Mr. Suri was fair or appropriate -- it was discriminatory. And making sure that he is held to account is not a stunt -- it's our job as parliamentarians. I mean Mr. Faisal -- Mr. Hussein -- were guests that I had put on the list as representatives of the Alberta Muslim Public Affairs Council, and all Canadians deserve to come to committee and be treated with respect. And I think it's important for people to know this was their first time presenting at a committee, it was their first time coming to question period. And the first thing that happened is they got attacked by a Member of Parliament simply for -- basically doing their testimony job at committee. So I think it's really important and I think it's also important for Canadians to realize that the manifesto from the Christchurch attacker -- a terrorist -- killed 51 people, his name, the manifesto, and quoting from that manifesto are illegal in New Zealand. And so the question you know really that people need to ask is why did Mr. Cooper come to committee with that text?

CO: Mr. Suri had said that the killer at the Quebec mosque had sought content online -- anti-immigrant, alt-right, conservative commentators, mass murderers, U.S. President Donald Trump -- he had sought out all these things, and that was what Mr. Cooper took exception to and then read into the record -- a passage -- from the manifesto of the Christchurch killer. And did he have it with him? The text that was with him at that time?

RB: It was in front of him. It was printed up in front of him. Which is why I reacted so strongly right away trying to get the chair's attention but also making -- look Carol my issue isn't with Conservatives and more conservative -- I have friends and neighbours and people that have supported me who are conservative. The issue that I have is with the alt-right, and with a member of parliament attacking a member from his own city -- a fellow Canadian -- simply for doing what we asked him to do was to come to our committee and help us figure out how we can curtail online hate. And yet there's Mr. Cooper pulling something from the web, that was the manifesto of a person that killed 51 people.

CO: But he had it with him -- so was that being discussed? Was there any reason you think why would Mr. Cooper have part of the text of this manifesto which as you point out has been banned in New Zealand -- why did he have it with him? Did you ask? Because I know you went in camera after that you insisted that that should happen after he said to Mr. Suri that he should be ashamed for saying that Conservatives were associated with it -- you went on camera, did you ask him why he read this manifesto?

RB: So I have no idea why Mr. Cooper came with that manifesto ready to use it I assume it was a strategy that he had coming into the meeting but we have not discussed this matter and as you know that I can't comment on any conversations that weren't had on camera.

CO: We heard Mr. Cooper when you did reconvene he gave a partial apology to the committee -- not so much to Mr. Suri. But then he was removed from the committee. He has apologized further and Mr. Scheer says the matter is settled. Why are you seeking his removal from the Conservative caucus?

RB: Well this is the same kind of techniques that the Harper government used when they were in office -- a slap on the wrist, move on, and go forward. I think the timing of this is also something that's important for people to realize Carol on the same day that Mr. Cooper was attacking Mr. Suri -- Mr. Scheer was making a speech saying that intolerance was not going to be accepted in his ranks and quite frankly he said that he would show people the door. Shown Mr. Cooper the door he -- showed him a revolving door right back into the Conservative caucus. Asking Mr. Cooper to leave the justice committee for the next three weeks is barely a slap on the wrist -- giving him more time, he retains his deputy critic role. And who has the final word on this? Mr. Cooper or Mr. Scheer? If Mr. Scheer is serious about not having these kind of extreme views in his party then he needs to come clean with that and he needs to show Mr. Cooper the door.

CO: But you and other Liberals have been unrelenting and accusing the Conservatives of being soft on the extreme-right. To some extent is that not playing with fire? Are you not contributing as well to this tension that surround the issues of racism in Canada?

RB: I hope not. I don't think so. I think what we're doing is taking a very calm approach but calling out the behavior when it takes place. I wasn't going to sit there and let Mr. Cooper berate a member -- you know a fellow Canadian and somebody who represents really a great organization in our province and in our city. I wasn't going to sit by and let that happen. I mean I think when we call out people like Senator Chap Tkachuk who was at the yellow vest rally and says that the people should take their trucks and run over liberals -- that's not being inflammatory, that's simply saying "Hey you can't do that. You can't incite people to violence simply because they belong to different political party than yours." And who else other than political leaders and political actors like members of parliament are actually going to call up that kind of behavior. It's the same kind of behavior that Minister Freeland called out that she was faced with by the senator at the Foreign Relations Committee. It's our job as parliamentarians to call out this kind of behavior. Canadians demand that we do it. They expect that we do it. And it's how we keep people who don't have a voice in this place safe. And what I struggle with Carol is the fact that right now printed hate speech material that's passed to somebody can land that person in jail but the same speech online gives that person a free pass. We have got to do better. We have got to clean up our laws so that people are protected.

CO: Mr. Boissonnault I will leave it there. Thank you.

RB: Thank you very much.

DF: Randy Boissonnault is a Liberal member of the House of Commons Justice Committee. We reached him in Ottawa.

[Music]

Syria Hospitals

Guest: Zaher Sahloul

DF: As Ramadan comes to a close, there's not much cause for celebration in the Syrian province of Idlib. In the past four weeks, 25 medical facilities have been bombed. And doctors in Idlib say the attacks are very much targeted. Many of these hospitals actually shared their locations with the U.N. which in turn shared them with Damascus and Moscow -- in a bid to shield the hospitals from attacks. But doctors say that plan has had the exact opposite effect. Dozens of doctors have now signed an open letter pleading with the United Nations to investigate the attacks. Dr. Zaher Sahloul signed that letter. He's a Syrian doctor living in exile in the U.S. and he just returned from Idlib province. We reached him in Chicago.

CO: Dr. Sahloul we have been watching -- since this war began in Syria -- watching and seeing hospitals and medical centres that are bombed. But in Idlib we're talking about 25 bombed in just one month. Why the high number? Why is that happening?

ZAHER SAHLOUL: It looks like it's an orchestrated effort by the Syrian regime and the Russians to displace people from northern Hama and southern Idlib. This is the last province that is controlled by the opposition. I would say that this is a very successful military campaign targeting hospitals because the 25 hospitals that were bombed that led to displacement of about 250,000 people, it is impacting the civilian population -- they are leaving their villages and cities. And I've witnessed that in my eyes last week when I was in Idlib. You know I passed by several towns and villages that are ghost towns.

CO: We've seen and spoken with doctors as these hospitals have been bombed -- it is just chaos. You're trying to get people out who are on IVs, you have women who have just given birth or who are in labor, you have children who are sick. And this is what the hospitals have been dealing with, right? And these medical centres.

ZS: Yeah I mean people you know have that impression or the perception that these are hospitals that are treating injured fighters -- it is not the case. These are the hospitals in town that are treating children, women who are delivering and having C-section -- I've seen in one of the hospital an elderly man who had two chest tubes because his village was bombed and he had injury. He was very depressed he told me, what did I do to deserve this?

CO: This open letter that you and many other doctors have signed -- you're demanding the United Nations investigate these most recent hospital attacks in Idlib. What specifically are you asking them to investigate?

ZS: I mean the United Nations and the Syrian context has become an aid agency and the reporting agencies. I mean their report on this bombing of hospitals as if it is normal. And they never signed accountability -- although everyone knows who is the culprit.

CO: But this is going one step further, isn't it? The concerns about the United Nations because these medical centres and these hospitals shared their coordinates -- their GPS coordinates -- with United Nations because they thought it would give them some protection if it was shared. What did the United Nations do with that information that has made these medical centres so much more vulnerable?

ZS: I mean this is the irony as you mentioned Carol that the hospitals were convinced by the U.N. to share their coordinates with the United Nations Security Council for protection. This is a process that is called de-conflicting -- that means the location of the hospital will become public and that way they are spared from bombing. But that did not prevent these hospitals from being targeted with smart bombs. So clearly the Russians have taken this information, they use them to target hospitals. Nine out of the 25 hospitals that were bombed in the last month have shared their GPS coordinates with the United Nation. So people think that the United Nations instead of protecting hospitals right now is sharing these information with the warring party that is coming back and targeting these same hospitals. Initially there was a huge reluctance among the Syrian hospitals and NGO to share these information but then we were convinced by the U.N. which said that you know sharing this information will protect the hospital. I visited one of the hospital in the city of al-Hass in southern Idlib and this hospital was bombed a couple of times. So they dug actually the hospital inside a mountain and in spite of that it was targeted and bombed and now it's out of service.

CO: And somebody actually was able to capture the bomb that hit it. It appeared to be a kind of bunker buster that just blew up everything underneath. We've seen the Syrians and the Russians drop chemical bombs, barrel bombs, but this one was targeted in order to go as deep as possible, wasn't it?

ZS: Exactly. And I think you know sharing the GPS coordinates makes it now much easier for the Russians to use smarter bombs and missiles that are hitting the hospitals and getting them out of service.

CO: And how is the United Nations responded so far to this letter that all of you have written?

ZS: I mean the typical response which is condemnations and the reporting. And there was a recent United Nations Security Council session where the Chief of Humanitarian Affairs kind of condemned bombing of hospitals without assigning responsibility. And he even mentioned that he would not have a response to the hospital that asked him should we share our GPS coordinates with the U.N.. He said that he has no response to them. We're not seeing a movement within the U.N. to have investigation and assign accountability.

CO: We have spoken with so many people in the course of this war since 2011, and the feeling each year as time went on that the world had forgotten them, that nobody cared, that they had been betrayed by all the other countries and institutions. When you were just there in Idlib, what did people say to you about their condition as they are right now?

ZS: First of all you know life continues. You know people may imagine that you know that three million people are always being bombed -- and it happens in southern Idlib and so forth -- but people still you know go shopping, it is Ramadan . But at the same time they feel that they have no other place to go. I mean if this campaign of targeting civilian infrastructure continues, they're going to end up all displaced on the border. And I've seen endless sea of tents at the Syrian-Turkish border. You know an IDP camp which are supposed to accommodate 100,000 now is accommodating 400,000. I've seen families under the tree. I mean for me as a humanitarian who has been in other war regions like Yemen and Iraq and other places, I feel that what's happening in Syria will come back to haunt us because you know other dictators and other warring parties will learn from the experience in Syria. This quote unquote normalization of hitting hospitals and ambulances and killing doctors will happen in the future in other places of the world. So we have to do something to stop these atrocities in order to protect the Syrian civilians but also in order to protect our future.

CO: When we speak with doctors and health workers in Syria -- the thing that haunts them the most is the children. Are there instances of your contact with children or stories of children that really touched you?

ZS: I saw a physician who told me that his one-and-a-half year child every time he hears the sound of helicopter he runs and hide under the couch. Usually you know they're amused when they hear the sound of helicopter -- they want to run out and see it. But in Syria every time you hear these sounds, children go and hide. What's happening in Syria and in Idlib that we have one million children who are hostages, who do not have normal life, because of this relentless bombing that is happening right now in Idlib.

CO: Dr. Sahloul I appreciate you bringing us up to date on this story as horrible as it is. Thank you.

ZS: Thank you very much.

DF: Dr. Zaher Sahloul is a Syrian doctor living in the U.S. and he is the president of a medical NGO called MedGlobal. We reached him in Chicago. And we've got more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

B.C. Swimmer

Guest: Jessi Harewicz

DF: What would it take for you to jump into the less than pristine Hudson River in New York City? For Jessi Harewicz, the answer was a shot at glory. The marathon swimmer from B.C. completed a 42-kilometre-circle around the island of Manhattan on the weekend. That followed a crossing of the Catalina Channel in 2018, and a swim across the English Channel the year before that. Which means Ms. Harewicz has completed the so-called "Triple Crown of Open Water Swimming." We reached Jessi Harewicz on dry land in New York City.

CO: Jessi I'm sure you took a good hard look at that water around Manhattan Island before you took the leap. What were you anticipating to be swimming in?

JESSI HAREWICZ: I was anticipating lots of garbage and pollution. But I don't think it actually was that bad. The water I thought was relatively clean but I think it's more of a psychological tricksters on your brain when you see things that are not necessarily pleasant.

CO: Some of them are actually living and moving, aren't they?

JH: Yes. [Laughs] Not really. I haven't seen -- I didn't see anything nasty at all. It's all relative.

CO: So no rats?

JH: No. No disgusting other things -- that are not going to talk about either [laughs].

CO: There are those. And it felt relatively clean? I mean you found normal kind of sea things there?

JH: Yeah. We saw a lot of driftwood which we didn't think -- we get that a lot in Vancouver in the Salish Sea. And I even found some pieces of seaweed -- I mean I don't stop but as you swim I almost grabbed them for a second to make sure that it was actually seaweed and not pieces of garbage. But it's really a psychological mind game -- all those little things you run into.

CO: So what a psychological mind game it must be just to do this -- I mean this 42 kilometres around Manhattan. How long did it take you to do this?

JH: It takes about eight -- it took me about 8 hours and 37 minutes. Most of the way is with the current so you're getting you know several kilometres of current pushing you and you go so many kilometres per hour yourself. So it's a quick swim. It's definitely a quick swim. [Laughs]

CO: Well yeah right [laughs] it's perfect for you. But how do you do it? What's the most difficult thing psychologically> Before we ask you about the physical part. What is your mind telling you to do?

JH: It really changes. I do find that channel crossings are actually a lot more difficult psychologically because you have nothing to look at. So swimming in the English Channel, swimming Catalina Channel -- which was the other two parts of the Triple Crown they were much more mentally challenging. I find circumnavigations -- you have something to look at. So you have something to think about, little things you can see. You're trying to keep your head down and focus on swimming obviously. But in the English Channel you're getting stung by jellyfish and you don't know how much longer. And there's still a lot of what ifs -- what ifs. And in this one I had to kind of make certain points so there's still that sense of panic but it's a different experience. But I've learned to appreciate both. [Chuckles]

CO: But one of the things you did see -- you swam around and past the Statue of Liberty. What was that like?

JH: Well sort of around. It's on your right. It's absolutely beautiful. It's far in the distance and you're in a very high traffic zone so you need to stay focused on where you are. And my father had to delay one of my feeding because he feeds me from the kayak every half an hour -- he gives me a quick bite of some maltodextrin gel -- what marathon runners would eat or marathon cyclists and that kind of thing. But I have to eat it quickly as possible because I have to tread water and I have to keep going. It was a very high traffic zone with the ferry that comes from Manhattan over to the Statue of Liberty and all the commercial ferry traffic and the ferries that go from Staten Island -- from Brooklyn. It's a crazy zone. So to appreciate the Statue of Liberty is a little mixed emotions when you're going around there.

CO: Is anyone looking out for you? I mean is it your job to take care of yourself or do they know you're in the water?

JH: No -- the swimmer's job is to swim. I do enjoy the planning of some of these events. I don't get involved in this kind of planning but I love learning. But my father really -- because he decided to kayak this with me and neither of us had done this route before -- I was involved in some of the pre-meetings. I've learned to appreciate that your crew does so much for you. The NYPD has boats. The New York Open Water Swimming Association they have all their boats. And there's a lot of logistics.

CO: And basically the water is quite cold I would think at this point.

JH: For me it's not -- well for marathon swimmers if you understand the English Channel which is you know a very popular swim to do and the qualifier for the English Channel is a six hour swim under 16 degree water. I've done that so many times and I've swam colder swims in British Columbia as well only as low as 12-13 degrees. But I've gotten used to those temperatures especially in the springtime and all of a sudden it's 17, 18,19 degree water -- the water warmed up really quickly and within a week or two in New York City. They were expecting as low as 14 -- and it was 17, 18, 19 degrees in Harlem. I was sweating like an egg.

CO: But you prefer the cold water -- it is the best thing for you then?

JH: For me personally I'm comfortable -- it's taken me years and lots of hard work acclimating to that colder water and going in all the time because I don't wear a wetsuit -- but I find it very therapeutic. I go into extra cold water as low as 7-8 degrees but not for very long in the winter more for my mental health.

CO: But now, you have won this. You've earned the Triple Crown. You've done the Catalina Channel, the English Channel, and now you've done this swim around Manhattan Island. So what does that mean for you that you've accomplished that?

JH: It was something that I set out to do many years ago when I signed up for the English Channel and when I jumped off the boat in Dover in the middle of the night -- during my first night swim. I'm very excited and hopefully to inspire other people that you don't have to be a fast swimmer to do this -- you just have to be determined and stubborn and passionate and it really makes you care about the environment that we live in whether it's a city or more urban or suburban environments. So it really is about finishing something that you had an idea about four or five years ago to complete.

CO: But you have to really really want to do this, what is it that pushes you to do this? That draws you into that cold water that you swim all night and go for hours, what is it about it?

JH: Everything. I mean working with my father for the last couple of years and my other family support -- my mother comes out with me in Vancouver along the shoreline and sometimes on a paddle board. I train hard in the pool all winter on my technical stuff but to be able to share it with my family -- they're both very active people, adventure. The Salish Sea being, smelling, hearing, seeing all these sensations for me it's created this amazing passionate sport and really important purpose of my life to share.

CO: Jessi thank you.

JH: Thank you so much.

DF: That was Jessi Harewicz, a marathon swimmer from Vancouver who has completed what's called the "Triple Crown of Open Water Swimming." We reached her in New York City.

[Music]

Didgeridoo

DF: Speak softly, and carry a big didgeridoo. A South Australian man has the second part down at least. Kym Abrook was wearing only his underwear when an intruder broke into his home. Whereupon he gave chase, wielding the musical instrument. Here's Mr. Abrook, telling his dramatic story to the Australian morning TV show "Sunrise."

SOUNDCLIP

KYM ABROOK: Yeah it was very cold -- about five degrees I think. And I was lying in bed at quarter 5 or 4 and I heard a noise and got out to investigate and seen his shadow. And he tried to hide behind my door and then someone sent him a text and it lit up his face. And I thought it was little bit early for Kung-fu so I grabbed the didgeridoo and off we went down the road.

REPORTER: Was he terrified? Did he take off?

KYM ABROOK: He was bigger than me but I don't know -- I had this didgeridoo there so he knew something was coming. And yeah I was pretty -- I don't know, what do you do with a half naked man chasing you down the street with a piece of wood? [Laughter]. I suppose you run for your life.

REPORTER: You run for your life. Exactly. Why did you grab the didgeridoo -- is that something you have by your bed just in cases like this?

KYM ABROOK: No. It was just too early for Kung-fu or pilates, so I thought the next best thing is to get the didgeridoo and chase him down with that. And if he had a knife or a screwdriver at least I could have smashed it out of his hand with the -- and then put him where he belongs.

DF: That was South Australia's Kym Abrook telling the TV show "Sunrise" about chasing an intruder with a didgeridoo in his down...under-wear. He also helped re-enact his half naked chase for the TV cameras. You can see that if you want on our Twitter feed @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Part 2: 'I force myself to remember their faces, their voices, their crying,' Tiananmen survivor says

Tiananmen Square: Liane Lee

Guest: Liana Lee

DF: 30 years ago today, tanks and troops armed with assault rifles opened fire on protesters in Beijing. It's believed that thousands of people died in the Tiananmen Square massacre. But for six weeks before that bloody crackdown in 1989 the students, workers, and intellectuals that occupied the centre of Beijing were elated. They dreamed of a more open, democratic China, with freedom of expression and without corruption. Here's the introduction to an As It Happens story on May 17th, 1989, that captures some of that energy.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: sirens, clapping and crowd singing]

AL MAITLAND: The word revolution is being shouted tonight on the crowded streets of Beijing. For four days, hundreds of thousands of Chinese students have occupied Tiananmen Square in the centre of China's capital. They're pushing demands for more democracy.

DF: That was Al Maitland on As It Happens talking about the Tiananmen Square protests on May 17th, 1989. Liane Lee is an activist who was there in those euphoric early days. She was also there when the bloodshed happened. Liane Lee is the vice chair of the Toronto Association for Democracy in China. She joined Carol in our Toronto studio.

CO: Liane welcome to As It Happens.

LIANE LEE: Thank you.

CO: This anniversary I would imagine that -- well every year -- it is something that you have to remember and deal with. What comes to mind -- what emotions fill you as you approach the anniversary of the Tiananmen massacre?

LL: I thought I can be calm. You know it is many years and many times -- and each year you know I have to tell with different channels the same stories that somehow you know still every time is emotional pain to me. But anyway, I feel it's my obligation not to tell. And I don't have a choice because I was rescued by people -- by good people -- in Tiananmen Square.

CO: And they rescued you. Others died -- so many died who were involved in the protests. But you feel that you have to carry the torch. You have to tell the story.

LL: Yes because the story, it's not just heart wrenching -- it's also the virtue of human nature. It's sad but it's also you know a strength to me you know to keep on, to move on, whatever I can do for them. I can tell you know on the June 3rd evening -- it's about 9:00. Four of us are from Hong Kong, we have four fellow students -- we went down to the lobby. No plan to go to the square.

CO: This is at the hotel you and the other Hong Kong activists were staying at.

LL: Right. The Beijing Hotel. And then right down to the lobby a whole bunch of Hong Kong journalist they were circling around us -- and then seriously told us, 'we got a reliable source there we'll be military crackdown tonight. Don't go out.'

CO: A military crackdown.

LL: And then we went out anyway because you know we have a determination -- we have to be with the student together. So we went straight forward to the Tiananmen Square -- to the headquarter -- and it is about 10:00. They have a student running broadcasting -- a radio broadcast -- and there was a voice. It is a boy's voice -- crying hysterically saying, 'fellow students it is for real. It is for real! It is real killing. They use machine guns and tank to kill us. And arm the people. In my hand is a shirt with blood stains -- it is from my classmate.'

CO: A shirt with bloodstains from his classmate?

LL: Yeah. And then he said lots of our fellow students are badly injured or died. So what are we going to do now? And then the leaders in the headquarter immediately conduct a vote and then the majority voted to stay because they thought they don't have a choice.

CO: Could you at that point -- could you hear the gunfire? Because we're talking about hundreds of thousands -- about 200,000 -- military personnel, army, that came in to quell this protest by students in the square. People started to hear gunfire at quite an early point. Did you hear that?

LL: By that time, not yet. It's 10:00 so actually the soldiers actually they clear the way -- you know from the outskirts of the city.

CO: This is very important what you are saying because what we've learned is that they didn't -- the Chinese authorities -- did not trust the Beijing military, the people in the city who they thought would not stand up to the students -- they would not crack down on them. So they brought in military soldiers, personnel from the countryside, that they thought would obey the orders to kill.

LL: You are right.

CO: So this is at night. You've been there for weeks now as part of these protests in Tiananmen Square -- this extraordinary movement of young people asking for democracy: singing and talking and speaking. When you first saw those soldiers -- when you first saw the army arrive with weapons, with tanks, with armored personnel carriers -- when you first encounter that, what went through your mind? What was your emotion at that time?

LL: I was nervous but I was not scared yet. Yet. Because you know during -- we saw soldiers on the around outskirt. And we were able to talk to them face to face and then they are just human beings. You know? We are talking on the same language. And then we shared food with them. But on that night the first time I saw they were carrying machine gun. They were coming out from the tunnel and then they are all on the steps of the history museum. Beside this museum there is temporary first aid station. And then it is about midnight and there was military signal firing up to the sky.

CO: They lit up with their flares.

LL: Yeah. There is a military signal you know firing up. And then I heard screaming, crying, on the other side of the building -- but pretty far away. I'm not sure if it is consulting or what? Because you know Hong Kong students never had any chance to recognize what is consulting. I heard [makes sound] pop pop pop pop. And then not long after they're screaming you know. And then I saw people carrying body badly injured you know to the station next to the history museum. And there's one scene that I will never forget -- it is about a little boy, a middle school student. And he was holding a rock and crying hysterically. "They killed my brother. They killed my brother. I'm going to fight till I die." And he is holding up a rock and wants to you know confront the soldier on the steps of the museum. And then I grabbed him with all my strength and then told him, no you can't go! It is dangerous. And then he laid his head on my shoulder and crying like an old man. And then there was an ambulance leaving -- and then he got loose off of my grab. And then he chased after the ambulance -- crying "Brother! My brother."

CO: Do you know what happened to him?

LL: Yeah -- he disappeared in my eyesight. But about 30 minutes later his bloody body was being carried back.

CO: You saw his bloodied body come out.

LL: Yeah. And I felt so sick. I couldn't sustain myself anymore. So my fellow student took me to the first aid station and then let me you know to have a break there. When I was in the first aid station I saw you know a lot of people dying. And there was a college student I guessed the back of his neck has been shot and his body below the neck is paralyzed but he is still you know crying, yowling, "Don't give up! Don't give up!

CO: I have Liane Lee in studio with me. And we are talking about the 30th anniversary of the massacre in Tiananmen Square where she was as a Hong Kong student. Liane just before we go on I have to say that in the past minutes that we have been talking to look at you, to watch how you are living this as though it happened to you yesterday, I can see and feel the emotion and the memories you are bringing back. Everything is so clear as though it was yesterday.

LL: Yes yes. So clear. I remember everything. I remember. I force myself to remember their faces, their voices, their crying, their tears -- you know even the last breath of their life. Yeah. So let me move on. What happened when I was in the first aid station they said ambulance arrived. All of a sudden people yowling, "Hong Kong student! Where's Hong Kong student? Get in the ambulance first!" Of course we refuse. We said we are fine. When another ambulance was coming, they kept saying "Hong Kong student first. Hong Kong student first." And then we strongly refused. And then there is a female doctor, she held my hand, look into my eyes, and talked to me. "Listen my child please get in the ambulance you have to leave the square safely. We need you to go back to Hong Kong to tell the world what happened tonight -- what our government did to us." This is the worse -- this is the statement that will be the statement of my life -- I'm here today to tell the world you know what happened that night.

CO: Can I ask you what led up to it? The weeks before when you went in there as a student -- the Hong Kong student -- in that square -- it was extraordinary to see the pictures. Hundreds of thousands of young people who thought, 'Yes! The moment has come. We're going to reform China. This is our moment. 1989. This is it. We are going to transform this country.' And so many things promised that change. You were all there. Let's just go back to that for a moment and tell us what it felt like in those weeks leading up to it. What optimism and joy you felt being in the square?

LL: Yes. That's why you know in the world history rarely a student movement can last for 30 years. Even though the movement has been in China you know being covered up -- this started it is a watershed -- it is a watershed about how Chinese people view the value in terms of democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, judicial reform.

CO: And that was all the things you were hoping to change? And then after June 4th it was completely different. I just want to remind people -- I mean June 4th you know that hundreds, thousands, of students (and) of people who were protesting -- we don't know how many people were actually killed in Tiananmen Square and in the protests that the military disrupted. They used as you say -- they used machine guns, they used snipers, they ran over students with armored personnel carriers and tanks. Where did you go? Where did you go at that point after the nurse told you to get out -- where did you go?

LL: I get in the ambulance and then they took me to the hospital. I don't know how to describe -- just like a hell of killing. Everywhere is blood. Everywhere you know there is wheelchair. You know there are many volunteers helping you know carry injured people to the emergency room. And then they don't know where the emergency room is and then people said, "Just follow the blood," to get to the emergency room.

CO: And so you saw one part of -- we don't even know because so many of the bodies disappeared, didn't they? I mean they were just apparently bulldozed off the street as they killed people. We don't even know what happened to so many people and many others arrested. We don't know what happened to so many people. Parents are still trying to find out where their kids went -- the students went. You went back to Hong Kong at that point, did you?

LL: Yes I did. After June 5th.

CO: You knew you had to get out?

LL: Yes. I left with the Hong Kong journalist and also some other businessmen -- we have chartered of flight offered by Hong Kong government.

CO: And among you were people who had photographs, had evidence, of what had happened so you could take the message to the world which is what you have been doing for the past 30 years.

LL: Actually photographs -- there are tons of evidence. The problem is whether you want to believe it or not. Like you know 10 years after June 4th I went to protest against Jiang Zemin -- the former President of China. I protest against him. But I circled around with those students you know who came there to welcome him. And then they yelled at me and even want to punch me. "You are a liar! Liar! Liar!"

CO: But in China as you know -- there is a generation that doesn't even know what happened. People have pointed out -- they've asked students, Chinese students -- young people, if they know what happened in Tiananmen Square...they have no knowledge of it. The Chinese government -- it doesn't allow even words to show up on internet that suggest that anything happened in Tiananmen Square. They denied that anyone was killed. So is it really their fault? The young Chinese? The Chinese today who don't know what happened that day that you were in the square?

LL: What upsets me about you know the most is initially the government tried to cover it up and then they distorted it and then eventually they don't care. They just said killing is right -- they justified the killing.

CO: And they say they were just putting down an insurrection -- they did this for the greater good of China. That's the argument.

LL: And the people accept it. This is the most disturbing thing happened after June 4th.

CO: I am speaking with Liane Lee and we are here on the 30th anniversary of the massacre of Tiananmen Square. Liane you say that you have to -- it's your obligation to keep reminding people what happened and to keep advocating for reform in China. Do you feel that it's possible? Do you feel that you will be successful at some point in breaking through the understanding in China about democracy?

LL: I never asked myself whether you will be success or not. What you should do you have to do it.

CO: Why do you continue? Why do you keep going in this campaign to tell people what happened? It's clearly so painful for you to remember this and to talk about it. So what keeps you going?

LL: I've been thinking of giving up for many times. I'm just an ordinary stay at home mom. I've went through kind of depression for the last four years -- particularly after the umbrella movement.

CO: In Hong Kong where all the people who were publishers, others, and all the students who were active in the square were arrested.

LL: You know I doing the most in tens of days about you know how the Hong Kong government is going to do to the student I almost see the same thing is going to happen...

CO: To suppress any uprising in Hong Kong that would be like Tiananmen Square.

LL: Yeah. So I just broke down. And from then on I have been really badly you know mental health wise is really a trauma to me.

CO: But you continued. You are here with me. And your passion about it, your commitment to the ir Liane is so obvious. What gives you hope?

LL: On one hand it is hope. On the other hand it is also my love for Canada -- it's true. We come to Canada -- I grow up in Canada. I open up you know to this country. I enjoy the harmony, and enjoy freedom, and enjoy the human rights and respect you know as a minority. And then when come to the Meng Wanzhou issue...

CO: The Huawei executive.

LL: Yeah the Huawei executive. And then I saw why Canada don't fight back? Why so timid? Because you know Canada is a great country. You know we've fought Second World War -- and we never bend down. Okay China is rich but you know our trade relationship is just four percent. And in this four percent there is also a trade deficit. And then I'm saying we still have a chance you know to fight back. You know if I can't fight in Hong Kong -- but here is another battle. We can't let these kinds of regime to export their model to our country.

CO: So you're protecting us now.

LL: We have to protect our -- it is our land, right. You're talking about the judicial autonomy with the Chinese government -- we can never have the same page of logic.

CO: You believe you're going to help protect democracy in Canada as well.

LL: Right. You have to be able to come out from the pain of the past and then use also our abrogation to fight.

CO: Well I admire your courage so much Liane Lee. And I'm glad you have the courage to keep this fight. Your obligation is so powerful. And I really appreciate you coming in and speaking with me today.

LL: Thank you. And the courage is also from my loving Canada.

CO: Thank you for being here.

LL: Thank you.

DF: Liane Lee is the vice chair of the Toronto Association for Democracy in China, and a survivor of the Tiananmen Square massacre. She was with Carol in our Toronto studio.

[Music]

Part 3: Marijuana Plant Smell

Justin Trudeau

DF: The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls is extremely clear about its conclusions. What happened was quote, "A deliberate race, identity, and gender based genocide." Prime Minister Justin Trudeau however seems more reluctant to use that word. Yesterday, he acknowledged the racism, sexism, and economic inequality that has allowed that violence against women and girls to happen. But he stopped short of using that word. Today in Vancouver the Prime Minister was asked whether he considers what happened to be a genocide.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We recognize the need for a national public inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And we have commissioners who came back with findings of fact and with calls to action. We thank them for their work. We applaud their work. We accept their findings including that what happened amounts to genocide. There are many debates ongoing around words and use of words. Our focus as a country, as leaders, as citizens, must be on the steps we take to put an end to this situation. And that is what we are going to remain focused on.

DF: A few minutes later, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was asked again about the use of the phrase "genocide" to describe the violence against Indigenous women and girls.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Tansi and Good morning Mr. Prime Minister. My name is Tina house at the Aboriginal People's Television Network. You cited in the final conclusion of the report yesterday on the Murdered and Missing women National Inquiry that it was genocide. Do you believe that it was genocide Mr. Prime Minister?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I think one of the challenges we face right now is a lot of people are engaging in debate over words. As I've said we accept the findings of the commissioners that it was genocide. But our focus is going to be as it must be on the families, on the communities, that have suffered such loss --on the systems that have repeatedly failed Indigenous women and girls across this country. Our focus is on bringing together people to solve this challenge. And that's what we will remain focused on.

REPORTER: Yesterday many of the families that we spoke with said that it was important for them to hear the acknowledgement coming from you. Is that a yes or no -- do you believe it was genocide?

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I have acknowledged that I accept the findings of the report. And the issue that we have is that people are getting wrapped up in debates over a very important and powerful term and our focus as I said we accept those findings. We accept the finding that this was genocide. And we will move forward to end this ongoing national tragedy.

DF: That's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking today in Vancouver.

[Music]

Marijuana Plant Smell

Guest: Virginie Roussin

DF: Now that it's legal in Canada, the smell of cannabis wafting through the air is a lot more common than it used to be. But in one Quebec neighbourhood that smell doesn't just waft -- it clamors into your nostrils. Permeates your clothes. And ruins your day. That's how residents are describing it after a marijuana production plant moved into the neighbourhood. Virginie Roussin lives near the plant. We reached her in Gatineau.

CO: Virginie just how strong is the smell of marijuana in your neighbourhood?

VIRGINIE ROUSSIN: It's like we always have constant directly in the yard or if windows our open directly in the house. It's not like just one joint that people smoke and the smell goes away after. It is all the time -- 6:00 in the morning, and the night, in the evening. And there's places that it's a lot more heavy than others.

CO: But now usually the smell of marijuana -- that smell you're describing -- is something associated with somebody smoking cannabis. That's usually when you light it up it creates that odor. You're saying this is coming from just the growing of the plants.

VR: Well we think so because we don't really know. We don't know what's going on the other side. But we know that they're growing it -- it's when they open the vents. Because if the vents are close we know that there's no smell.

CO: Okay so what effect does that have on you -- if you can smell skunks in your yard...

VR: Because we always have to explain everything smells. The dog smell, our clothes smell sometimes. So we don't hang the clothes outside no more. And we have to explain why because we don't want people to think that -- I'm a nurse so I don't want people to think I smoke before I go to work. And my kid -- I don't want people to think that there's smoking around him. He smells -- it smells stinky or skunky or [chuckles] it smells on my dog.

CO: Okay. This has been of course during the winter -- maybe it wasn't as strong. When did it start getting to be so powerful?

VR: Not long ago about the middle of March because we never thought it would smell. We were scared of the lights. It is a little problem but not as much as the smell. But because people are talking about us, they're now answering the phone of our neighbours -- Hexo. So it's good because we all love living here. We don't want nothing. We just want to fix the problem.

CO: Okay when you say they're answering the phone -- Hexo which is the company that has this marijuana production plant in your neighbourhood. They were not responding to you. And now since...

VR: Well they would respond stupidly. They would say we gave 500 jobs and our filters are okay for the government that's it -- nothing else. So at least now they're going to try to be good neighbours and try to work with us.

CO: But when you say the smell -- is it having any physical effect? Do you get high smelling?

VR: No no. If I would get high on pot maybe I would be less mad at the smell. [Laughter] No -- we just have the smell. The skunk smell. That's it. It's just a skunky smell. And we're scared that when it's going to be 40 degrees outside it's going to be worse. And they want to double the production. So it's just going to smell the double. We want to fix this before they grow bigger.

CO: But you know -- I mean they're saying that you live in an agricultural area and sometimes if you're near poultry or hogs or whatever it is, there's a smell. Right? This isn't just another agricultural business that's going to have an odor?

VR: We don't mind that it's agriculture. So there's no problem with that. But it's the smell. And there's no big rules for growing pot because it's new so that's the problem also. So we cannot do nothing. We have to change the laws or -- they have to change this because I don't think nobody would like it either.

CO: And of course this is just a new industry, isn't it? It is starting so maybe they're just trying to get the bugs out to figure out how this actually should work.

VR: Yeah. Well I think that we should -- we know now that we have to be very careful with the animals and agriculture -- so we just have to check this before it does more harm or...

CO: But they're saying -- Health Canada -- they say they're already meeting all those standards. They have the filters and there's nothing they can do.

VR: Well yeah. I just hang up with Marc Carriere because of all this, all the news -- they're doing something. Because it's new so they want to be also good neighbours and they want good publicity. So I think it's good that all this.

CO: Okay. So you are saying -- your local city councillor is finally returning your phone calls and responding to you.

VR: Because it's not only me [inaudible] on something. We all want to fix something. We want to fix the problem and to keep living here.

CO: And keep those jobs too. Those are good 500 jobs.

VR: Yeah -- it is good for Masson-Angers. We're always a small village so it's good. But us -- we want to keep living here.

CO: We will leave it there Virginie. Thank you for telling us the story.

VR: Thank you very much.

DF: Virginie Roussin lives near a marijuana production plant in the city of Gatineau, Quebec. That's where we reached her.

[Music]

Inmate Suicide Case

Guest: David Steingold

DF: In 2015 an inmate at a Michigan jail, Janika Edmond, killed herself in the cell. And the guards who were supposed to be protecting her weren't surprised. They had placed a bet among themselves that Ms. Edmond would become suicidal and when she did they did nothing to stop her. The surviving family of Ms. Edmond has now received hundreds of thousands of dollars in a settlement of a wrongful death lawsuit from the state of Michigan. David Steingold is the lawyer for Janika Edmond's family. We reached him in Detroit. And a warning: the details of this story are disturbing.

CO: Mr. Steingold how did Janika Edmond make it known to the prison guards that she was a suicide risk?

DAVID STEINGOLD: After she had gotten into a confrontation with another inmate -- they were put into separate stalls where a decision had to be made on whether to discipline them or not. At that point when she was notified that her visit would be cancelled she said "I want a bam bam." And indicated she was going to commit suicide.

CO: What's a bam bam?

DS: A bam bam is a suicide vest. And a request for a bam bam is an indication of suicidal ideation.

CO: She asked for a bam bam. Did anyone hear her?

DS: Oh absolutely. Several people. There were other guards in the area, some watching other inmates and some who were in the control booth, all in all there was approximately 10 guards in the area and definitely this was heard because not only did she say that twice but the guard immediately pumped her fist three times and said "somebody owes me lunch" in a very loud tone that was captured on audio.

CO: And this was Dianna Callahan who made that remark. What was she referring to?

DS: She had made a bet with another guard named Moore that Janika Edmond would ask for a bam bam or indicate that she intended to commit suicide -- having attempted suicide several other occasions apparently guard Callahan thought that was a pretty funny easy bet to win.

CO: And "somebody owes me lunch" -- what was the bet for? Do you know specifically what the prize was?

DS: A Subway sandwich.

CO: So -- Dianna Callahan -- this is on tape, right? She's recorded as having said, "Somebody owes me lunch."

DS: It is on video and audio.

CO: But at the same time how did then people respond to the trouble that Janika Edmond was in?

DS: Well the rules at the time prohibited any people who were observing other inmates from taking their eyes off the inmate. Ms. Callahan's job if she needed to leave her spot was to call on the relief person. There's always a relief person there to take your place if you'd need to be excused for a minute because the rules are eyes have to remain constantly on the inmate until the pros arrive. She never asked for relief. She just went down ordered her Subway. And the intervening 17 minutes Ms. Edmond hung herself with her bra in that stall.

CO: You have seen the video and the audio for this. How troubling is it to actually witness this?

DS: It's like watching a murder being committed because you knew in advance what was going to happen. And it's so obvious that she's in distress and there are so many people who could have done something if they had been allowed -- those who were watching other inmates weren't allowed to look around. But the 10 or so other guards that were in the area including those in the control booth not only could have but should have been attending to what was going on. They're supposed to be supervisors in the area. There were none. And it was literally like being told you're going to go watch a death occur and you can't do anything about it. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to watch.

CO: What happened with the guards -- Dianna Callahan and the others -- who were there?

DS: Callahan was fired. She was prosecuted and eventually pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter. I believe she did six months in a county jail which is an outrage. The other guard Moore -- the one who paid off the bet was originally suspended but was reinstated. No other disciplinary action was taken as far as I'm concerned although there were other events surrounding this that I believe should have justified criminal charges against amongst others the deputy warden at the facility.

CO: The family of Janika Edmond -- you've now secured a settlement of 860,000 dollars for them. What effect has all this had on her family?

DS: Well understand that both of her parents had their rights -- parental rights -- terminated. So they were not even allowed to share in the settlement or no doubt it would have been much more. Because they're not lawyers and did not understand that they could reinstate their parental rights otherwise they would essentially be declared by law not to have any children and they couldn't share. But nonetheless this was their baby and they were trying desperately to re-establish their relationship. During this time in fact one of the things that distressed Janika the most was that her mother was there to visit her that day. And she was told simply that your daughter won't be receiving visitors that day. Her brother who was also there heard this conversation going on and wanted to know what was going on. Of course they found out nothing for at least another 24 hours -- and even then how they had to find out was a bit outrageous. But the family is devastated. The parents are devastated. And it isn't just losing the life of somebody who is dear to them. It was the circumstances -- completely abdicating from their responsibilities. This should just never have happened. If the guards did nothing more than follow the rules -- 'I better go downstairs and order lunch. Please substitute in for me.' We wouldn't be having this conversation. Janika would have been alive. Understand she was scheduled to be released five months after her death.

CO: Mr. Steingold it is a very distressing story. I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

DS: Take care.

DF: We reached lawyer David Steingold in Detroit.

[Music]

DeMar DeRozan

DF: Tomorrow night, millions will be watching when the Toronto Raptors take on the Golden State Warriors in the NBA Finals. Most of them, however, weren't on the team last year. Last July, the Raptors traded DeMar DeRozan in an off-season deal that brought Kawhi Leonard to Toronto. And given the team's success, that trade may seem like a slam dunk in retrospect. But at the time, it stunned fans, and Mr. De Rozan who had spent nine seasons with the team. Recently, Mr. DeRozan spoke with Bleacher Report's Taylor Rooks about the trade, the Raptors playoff run, and why he thinks he's a "sacrificial lamb." Here's part of that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

DEMAR DEROZAN: Being invested from 19 to -- I was about -- 28 so you knew. You know you went from the bottom up. You know everything you learned was from there. Every day a new game -- and success was from there you know. Everything was created there. So for that to be [snaps finger] going like that when you least expect it -- it just throws you off guard. It hits you. You know we are human at the end and day and it definitely hits you. Still to have so many friends that I'm close to still playing in that same situation -- you know you definitely still feel it. But it's not in a malicious way. It was real for me before. So you know if it didn't feel like nothing to me I didn't care before. But you know I definitely fell it.

TAYLOR ROOKS: I know the big storyline during the playoffs now has kind of been like, what's DeMar thinking watching the Raptors playing?

DEMAR DEROZAN: My best friend is Kyle. That's my best friend. Pretty sure if you have a best friend you are going to them every day. So I'm rooting for my best friend. You know? To do well, to accomplish something that we tried to do all the years, and he has the opportunity to do it. You know as a true friend -- all the guys on the team they know you know I am rooting for them.

TAYLOR ROOKS: I do though want to kind of give you the chance to clear all this narrative like 'they couldn't get there with DeMar. They can only get there now because they have Kawhi.' What is your response to that?

DEMAR DEROZAN: It wasn't for me none of that would be possible right now for them to be in a position they in. I am not speaking in a cocky way but more so of you know reality, you know. Yes I fought -- I sacrifice, I pushed the limits to where we got to the point to where I had to be the sacrificial lamb for them to you know feel like they got to make a move that was right there. You know you bring in another great player and it's right there. But if it wasn't for all the years and groundwork that I did before then, you know no none of the things would have been possible.

TAYLOR ROOKS: So in a weird way is there almost like a sense of -- not a sense of pride in their success but you understand that...

DEMAR DEROZAN: Yeah -- and I have to sit back and like wonder like why? Like why this happened? Like what happened? You just have to sit back and understand like you know you are the reason so many things was even possible. You know. You got it -- you got it to that point now you know. To their credit they probably felt like it was time to see what we could get to make that next jump you know. But like I say we all got them to that point -- not just me, all players that I've played with over the years -- Coach Casey. You know so many guys played part of why the team is successful to this day -- not just this exact team that's today for sure.

DF: That's former Toronto Raptors DeMar DeRozan speaking with Bleacher Report's Taylor Rooks.

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

June 4, 2019 Episode Transcript

More Stories Like This