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The AIH Transcript for June 3, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Daemon Fairless

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

DAEMON FAIRLESS: Good evening. I'm Daemon Fairless. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

DF: Tonight...

CO: An end and a beginning. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls issues its final report -- and calls for Canada to make systemic changes on every level.

DF: Heart of darkness. A new film by Canadian Journalist Arthur Kent called "Black Night in June" includes footage he captured 30 years ago today -- when the massacre in Tiananmen Square began.

CO: An American Yankee in Queen Elizabeth's court. Outside Buckingham Palace, our guest is being eaten up inside by the fact that President Trump is eating with royalty inside at the invitation of the U.K. government.

DF: Falling on Jeff-ears. We know he can still hear you in Nova Scotia so we'll share more of your messages for the person who last sat in this chair until last Friday it was -- Jeff Douglas.

CO: Plieing for keeps. It's been 50 years since Canadian ballerina Veronica Tennant gave the first performance at Ottawa's National Arts Centre -- tonight she tells us why that stage still matters.

DF: And let's stick together. That's the message of a Swedish start-up that claims to be real and claims to believe that people in major cities will embrace the timeless romance of a pogo stick sharing service. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that's more of a hop-less romantic.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Journalist Arthur Kent releases remastered footage from Tiananmen Square massacre

MMIWG Report

Guest: Qajaq Robinson

DF: It was an emotional day in Gatineau, Quebec today -- one that was decades and centuries in the making. Today, the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls presented its final report -- which calls for a complete paradigm shift from all levels of government and public institutions. As we told you on Friday, the report refers to the murder and disappearance of these women and girls as a genocide, using the term dozens of times. But today, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau stopped short of using that phrase.

SOUNDCLIP

JUSTIN TRUDEAU: Many people -- non-Indigenous and Indigenous, many institutions -- will find this day, this report, these truths...difficult, challenging, and uncomfortable. [Someone yells "Genocide"] This is an uncomfortable day for Canada -- but it is an essential day. We need to recognize the truths presented here, the truths you carry, and the future you have reached out your hands to build alongside all Canadians. We take this day as an essential day in the history and the future of this country, and we will walk forward together.

DF: That's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau speaking today at the closing ceremonies for the Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. Qajaq Robinson is one of the inquiry's commissioners. We reached her in Ottawa.

CO: Ms. Robinson what was it like for you to be at this inquiry and to hear the final release today?

QAJAQ ROBINSON: It was powerful. It was the culmination of a long few years -- and to have that moment and to share with the rest of the country the outcome of that work -- the final report -- surrounded with family, community, different cultures, songs, dance, children, elders...it was a powerful day.

CO: Those three years you had dozens of meetings in communities. You had the testimony of more than 2000 people. What kind of reaction have you had so far about the report?

QR: Many are overwhelmed with emotion. Many are grateful that we have represented their truth and conveyed to the government what needs to be done. There's a bit of a holding of people's breaths now in terms of what next. There's relief. There's hope. There's fear. There's lots of different feelings that have been shared with me.

CO: I guess what has been the big headline over the weekend is -- after the report was leaked and then today as well -- is this term "genocide" which is so important, so central, to how it's being characterized why this violence happened. We just played a clip from Justin Trudeau today talking about these truths, these painful truths, difficult, uncomfortable. He did not use the word genocide -- someone calls out from the room "genocide." He doesn't say it. How uncomfortable -- how difficult is it going to be for Canada to come to terms with that term?

QR: Things could be incredibly uncomfortable but I think regardless of what we call it we have to be uncomfortable. We have to be outraged. I think that what we call it -- it's significant that we call it genocide because we have to respond to it with the same kind of intent and intensity that has brought us here. So you know regardless of what we call it we need to be uncomfortable. We need to recognize that our country was built on ideologies of supremacy, racial supremacy, gender supremacy -- and a lot of that is still embedded in our laws of superiority and almost paternalism over Indigenous peoples. And that remains in our constitution. We're going to have to be uncomfortable to get to where we need to go -- which is a place where our values of justice, equality, human dignity, are upheld and apply to everyone.

CO: The recommendations are leveled at the government, the authorities, police, the courts. But this report is clearly a message you want to send to Canada and Canadians about our role in this violence and how things have come to this point of genocide. What is the message -- what is it you want Canadians to understand?

QR: I think what we need to understand is there's nothing inherently violent about Indigenous peoples and there's nothing inherent about Indigenous women and girls and gender diverse people in themselves -- in their culture -- that has created this violence. It's how we've evolved as a country. The oppression, the marginalization, political, social, economic, cultural -- that marginalization, that displacement, has created this. And we have to start looking at that and stop pointing the finger at Indigenous people.

CO: But on that I just want to ask you -- one of the recommendations is stiffer penalties for men who carry out spousal or partner abuse. There's a pattern of intimate partner violence you want to see -- far more strident response to that from the courts. But often that offender is an Indigenous man who is also a product of this history. The courts are being asked to take that into account with sentencing. Indigenous men are overrepresented in the prison system as it is. How do you reconcile what appears to be a contradiction that you want stiffer sentences for domestic violence but so many of the men who might be the offenders are already suffering from the same history?

QR: Well one of the things we heard from families is that the consideration of Indigenous offenders is considered in the courts through the Gladue process. But the reciprocal is not part of the consideration when an Indigenous woman is the victim -- that's not brought into consideration. We do call for stiffer accountability but we also do call for reform in the criminal corrections response to look at healing, rehabilitation, and reducing recidivism. So I don't see it as being a contradiction. I think it's looking at things more holistically.

CO: I know there are a lot of recommendations, but for you what are the most key ones?

QR: I have to be frank with you I think the key ones is the ones that speak to the capacity of Indigenous communities and Indigenous peoples to find the solutions -- and really when it comes to what governments and non-indigenous Canadians have to do is in effect get off their toes. Create that legal political economic space for them to be self-determining and to not take this paternalistic approach.

CO: I think people know you are not an Indigenous person. You were on this commission. Some people criticized you for that. But you acknowledged that as a non-Indigenous person you have battled shame, guilt, and denial. Can you talk about that?

QR: I do. You know I pause to think about my legacy, my ancestors' legacy. My mother's ancestors were early early settlers in the province of Quebec and I reflect on what those encounters may have been like you know and what roles were played. And then I think about what I can do now and how my position of privilege impacts Indigenous peoples and other people who do not have that privilege in place. So it's a process of regular reflection.

CO: And do you think that's something that all Canadians have to embark on?

QR: I feel better as a person for having done it, and I do encourage all of us to take that step.

CO: Ms. Robinson thank you.

QR: Thank you Carol.

DF: Qajaq Robinson is a commissioner of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. We reached her in Ottawa.

[Music]

Tiananmen Square: Arthur Kent

Guest: Arthur Kent

DF: On June 3rd, 1989, Arthur Kent was in Tiananmen Square covering student protests, when the gunfire started. That night the Canadian journalist filmed the government's bloody crackdown on protesters -- the massacre that's believed to have killed thousands of people. Now, 30 years later, Mr. Kent has restored his footage from the massacre and released a short film called "Black Night in June." Here are some of the sounds of violence and chaos he filmed that night.

SOUNDCLIP

[Crowd yelling and loud noises in background]

DF: That is a clip of the chaos that Arthur Kent filmed on June 3rd and 4th, 1989, when the Tiananmen Square massacre began. We reached Arthur Kent in Calgary.

CO: Arthur you had been out at the protests -- this peaceful protests for weeks. But that night -- the night of the massacre -- at what point did you realize that something terrible was happening?

ARTHUR KENT: Well we heard gunshots in the distance on Chang'an street, on the Avenue of Eternal Peace, and searchlights -- spotlights -- shining down towards the crowd of protesters. But only when I saw that these were army helmets -- like a black wave washing down the avenue towards us. And then live fire -- the sound of live fire, assault rifles, which of course I was familiar -- I had just come from covering the war in Afghanistan -- and they were firing directly into the crowd of demonstrators. And it was then when I was running along with the demonstrators retreating back to the east towards Tiananmen Square that it sank in. This was an armed assault.

CO: What you capture just these very spooky images I've heard and many people have talked about what it was like at that moment in the square to realize that they were not just a few but tens of thousands of Chinese army personnel who had entered the square with weapons, with tanks, armored personnel carriers. How did the students respond when they started to realize what was surrounding them?

AK: Well that was the extraordinary and riveting thing about it -- they were defiant...they charged. In fact you'll see a scene in my film where they're yelling "forward" and actually going to a barricade and advancing against the oncoming waves of PLA soldiers.

CO: You started to film scenes of the students taking their friends out -- trying to get medical treatment, trying to get them away from the square. Some of those are very disturbing moments you found them in. Just describe some of the things that have really haunted you about this footage that you took.

AK: Well at the time there was almost a feeling of exhilaration to be there and witnessing this extraordinary cohesion and this communal feeling among the protesters -- okay we're under attack, let's take care of our wounded, let's resist as best we can and carry our dead and wounded as best we can as we do so. And then arriving in the square -- there were medical students among the protesters and medics from area hospitals -- they had a MASH unit set up in the centre of Tiananmen Square. And there I witnessed scenes of really -- I suppose looking at the footage afterwards very disturbing. At the time I just thought look they're trying to save these people. It terrifically difficult to remember at a distance. At the time however I was blessed at having to be able to make a camera function. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't screw up -- that I got something on tape, that I made a record and got it out of there.

CO: I want to play a bit of the tape that you did get out of there. And these are young people --they're running with a friend, holding his hands and legs as they run out of the square. And they're saying in Chinese 'Hold his head. Hold his head.' And we are going to play a bit of that tape.

SOUNDCLIP

[People panicking]

CO: There are many of those faces -- those young people you filmed -- and there's hundreds of them in the footage. We have no idea what happened to so many of them, do we? I mean a large number of those young people have disappeared -- have never been seen again, after being killed we know they just took the bodies away, or some were taken to prison, their parents have no idea where they are, their mothers have no idea. Do you sense when you look at that footage that you're looking at the faces of young people who we don't know what happened to them afterwards?

AK: Ever since I recorded them, yes. And have looked at them in my mind over the years. And of course the Tiananmen mothers -- more than 120 mothers of the dead and missing -- are still demanding in China, in Beijing, and elsewhere in China, that the government -- the communist leadership -- come clean.

CO: Because you were able to record those faces but not get names because of how fast things are moving -- so many of them, we were just saying you don't know who they are and what happened to them -- but you did find out what happened to at least one young man who's with a young woman. They could be the poster children for Tiananmen Square. And what have you learned recently about that one man? Since you released this footage you got an identity for him, didn't you?

AK: Indeed. The Hong Kong Free Press ran a story about my film and a journalist in Hong Kong contacted the news organization and myself and said look that young man is Kenneth Lam, who's now a solicitor -- a human rights lawyer in Hong Kong. And a day later -- that is yesterday -- I was exchanging emails with Kenneth Lam. For the first time I knew his name and that Cheng Zhen, the girl that I filmed at his side on the Heroes monument -- she and he made it out on the 5th of June and she now resides in the United States. So just to learn Kenneth and Cheng Zhen's names and to know that they got out of there alive is just an enormous relief.

CO: Arthur I know you have covered conflicts and wars around the world, you have seen a lot of horrible things. But talking to you -- you became very emotional talking about what you saw on Tiananmen Square. Why did it affect you so much?

AK: You know I was 35 at the time -- I already had exceptional experiences as an adult, as a professional, as a journalist. And here I was looking at these people -- many of them in their early 20s, some still in their teens -- and there I was filming them, I was with them...I was with them as their futures seemed to be crushed in front of them in the cruelest way. And why? Because they simply asked for the democratic freedoms that I enjoy.

CO: Arthur I appreciate you telling us about your experiences and sharing the film. Thank you.

AK: Thank you Carol.

DF: Arthur Kent is a Canadian journalist. He just released a short film on his footage from the Tiananmen Square massacre: "Black Night in June." We reached Mr. Kent in Calgary. And tomorrow on As It Happens a feature interview with Liane Lee. She was a Hong Kong student who went to Beijing to support the student protests.

[Music]

Tornado

SOUNDCLIP

[Chainsaw sound]

DF: The chainsaws are out in Ottawa after a tornado touched down there last night. It's the second time in less than a year that this area has seen such wild weather. No one was badly injured, and the storm didn't pack the same ferocity as the six funnel clouds that hit Ottawa in the Gatineau last September. But the winds tossed backyard trampolines, and tree tops tore down fences and sent debris flying around the streets of Orleans. The tornado was spotted near the Gatineau airport just before 6:00. Then it traveled along the Ottawa River before hitting the suburb. CBC Ottawa reporter Olivia Chandler spoke to people caught in the storm's path.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I was scared. I felt like the whole house would be blown up. Yes -- it was really strong. And then I looked out the window -- front window -- and all the debris from other stuff was flying on the street. And after the tornado was gone everybody's coming out -- and I say police. So that's what it was. Oh my God.

VOICE 2: Just all of a sudden the wind came up and all I saw was our barbecue flying. And we had just sat down -- we were turning on the TV. And then it was just over and we went out and the things in the back yard -- we went out to see if there was any damage on the house and we were so fortunate that we don't have anything but our neighbours do.

VOICE 3: It was about 10 to 6 when I looked out the back door window and that's when we suddenly got a little bit of a windmill going and it just took off. And I thought it was going to come right out of the ground and take it off because it was just rotating so quickly. And then the trees started to bend and the wind howled. And I said uh-oh this is more than just a little wind. I didn't know if it was a downdraft or whether it was a tornado. But boy, it sure wrecked its vengeance on us in a very short period of time.

DF: Those were the voices of Orleans residents Matty Proulx, and Helena, and David Robb. They spoke with CBC Ottawa reporter Olivia Chandler last night about the tornado that tore through their neighbourhood.

[Music]

Quick note

DF: Just a quick note before we continue: just so you know I'm not the new permanent co-host of "As It Happens" -- even if I'm sitting where Jeff used to sit and eating the saltines he left for me. He insisted they were great for voice work. I'm starting to think that was a prank Mr. Douglas. Anyways I'm guest hosting all this week and we wanted to let you know that there will be guest hosts in this chair for the next few months. It takes some time to find a replacement for someone like Jeff Douglas. We don't want to rush the process. So thanks for your patience. And on with the show.

[Music]

Paul McCartney

DF: Last night, at a tour stop in Lexington, Kentucky, Paul McCartney had a special message for a Canadian teenager.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL MCCARTNEY: I'll tell you what -- there is an incredible version a Canadian girl's done, you can see it on YouTube. It's in a native language. She has done it in the language of her Native American tribe. It's really cool -- check it out.

DF: That was Paul McCartney giving a shout-out to 16-year-old Emma Stevens for her cover of "Blackbird." As you heard on the show, the Cape Breton student performed a beautiful rendition of The Beatles' song in the Mi'kmaq language. When we spoke with Emma last month, the video had been viewed 30,000 times on YouTube in just a week. Now it has more than 420,000 views. And just last week Emma flew to Nairobi, Kenya to perform at the UN-Habitat Assembly. Here's Carol speaking with Emma on May 1st about what that song means to her.

SOUNDCLIP

ES: Our language is such a beautiful thing. And not a lot of people hear it. And I know it's just like a little song and it’s just a little cover. But in our language, it's really beautiful. And it just makes a big impact.

CO: And that last refrain: Blackbird fly/ blackbird fly Into the light of the dark black night. And Emma, when you sing that, it's so rich. I'm translating in my head, but learning it, saying it in Mi’kmaq, how does it change it, do you think, when you're singing it in your own language?

ES: It makes me proud to be First Nation. Being First Nation is a really big part of my life. That is the biggest part of my life. And I'm so passionate about my culture and my heritage that like it gives me a good, warm feeling inside hearing it in Mi’kmaq, and hearing those lyrics in Mi’kmaq.

CO: What other songs would you like now to maybe sing in Mi’kmaq?

ES: There's not a lot of songs that like you can translate in Mi’kmaq — because not a lot of words would fit. And I would like to write my own songs in Mi’kmaq.

DF: That is 16-year-old Emma Stevens who performed the cover of "Blackbird" in Mi'kmaq speaking with Carol last month. Last night the man who wrote that song, Paul McCartney, gave her a special shout out.

[Music]

Part 2: Why this Labour MP refuses to participate in Trump's state visit to Britain

U.K. Trump Visit

Guest: Emily Thornberry

DF: U.S. President Donald Trump says he's looking forward to being a great friend to the United Kingdom. But as he landed in London for an official state visit, Mr. Trump seemed more intent on making enemies. After London Mayor Sadiq Khan called the president a growing global threat, and compared his rhetoric to 20th century fascism -- Donald Trump responded, as he so often does, with a tweet. He called Mr. Khan a "stone cold loser" who had been foolishly nasty to him. Mr. Khan and others on the left have blasted the UK government for welcoming Mr. Trump for a state visit. Emily Thornberry is one of them. She's Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary. We reached her outside Buckingham Palace where tonight Mr. Trump is attending a banquet.

CO: Ms. Thornberry seeing that you are outside Buckingham Palace and not inside we have to assume you did not get invited to Donald Trump's state banquet tonight. Are we right?

EMILY THORNBERRY: What happened is that the leader of the opposition is often invited to a state banquet and he doesn't tend to go to them. But he definitely didn't want to go to this one. And I normally deputize for him but I write to her majesty and explain that if I was to be invited I would decline and I didn't want to embarrass her.

CO: And so what message are you sending by being outside the palace?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I mean it's not that I don't have a great deal to say to Donald Trump. I mean I would like to talk to him about the way in which he is tearing up the world order, ripping up treaties. He's pushing the climate beyond crisis. So if he wants to have a private meeting, I'm more than happy to speak to him. But I didn't think that a state banquet was the place to talk about it.

CO: And in fact Donald Trump kicked off the visit by insulting the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan. And I just want to play you a short clip of what Mr. Trump -- for those in Canada who haven't had a chance to hear it -- what he said when he got off the plane today.

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: No -- I don't think much of him. I think that he's the twin of de Blasio -- except shorter.

CO: Okay. That's a very short clip of Donald Trump comparing Sadiq Khan to New York Mayor Bill de Blasio -- only shorter. That was among many remarks he made about Mr. Khan. What do you make of those comments?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I saw on Twitter that Bill de Blasio was welcoming this and saying that it was an honour for him to be compared to Sadiq Khan -- as indeed it is. He is a great man. And frankly the president has no business coming to London and insulting our mayor saying he's a nasty person. He also said -- I don't know if you heard this -- he also said that the mother of the Queen's great-grandson was a nasty person. I mean honestly?! And then he's starts trying to tell us that he can pick who the next prime minister is going to be by telling us what a great man Boris Johnson would be as prime minister. I mean he seems to forget that we are a democracy. We're noisy and fractious, and ill-tempered at times democracy -- but we are a democracy. And frankly we don't need his advice. We can work out for ourselves who our prime minister ought to be, thank you very much.

CO: Just to go back to Mr. Khan -- the Mayor of London -- once again, did he not say that Mr. Trump's rhetoric was fascistic and that he's not welcome in London. So didn't the mayor actually spoil for a fight himself from the very beginning?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think that you'll find -- if you really want to look at who comes first -- that it was Donald Trump at the outset I think saying that we were Londonistan or whatever. So I think that he -- out of the blue -- started insulting London and the Mayor of London. I don't know what problems he's got with our Muslim mayor. I have no idea. But he certainly seems to have a problem with him. But Sadiq is more than capable of looking after himself -- and he is a very popular man in London, he's a man with great Liberal values which frankly I don't think that Donald Trump seems to share.

CO: And you called him -- you said that Mr. Trump is a racist. Is it not true that your Labour Party is under investigation for anti-Semitism -- I mean does that make it more difficult for you to cast aspersions on Mr. Trump?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think you have to call out racism when you see it -- wherever it is. And I have been very clear about how disappointed I am by the way in which the Labour Party has not dealt with anti-Semitism fast enough. We certainly have anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. We have anti-Semitism in the Conservative Party and indeed throughout Britain. But my party should be at a higher standard than any other parties. And I want to hold my party to a higher standard. And I will hold the United States President to a high standard too when he starts caging children and they die early, unnecessarily, and they're separated from their parents. And I will call this out for what it is.

CO: I wonder how popular he is in the UK. I mean leading up to this visit he praised the likes of Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson -- popular men in areas, well some large areas of your country. How much influence do you think that Mr. Trump can have over British politics with his favoritism?

EMILY THORNBERRY: I think it is very interesting that he has gone to populist -- and for people who he sees as being in his own political image. I don't think it actually does them a great deal of good, but that's a matter for them. As I stand here now, I'm standing looking at Buckingham Palace -- there's a group of 50 or so pro-Trump protesters. And over on the other side of the large memorial to Queen Victoria -- I can't see them but I'm told that there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of anti-Trump demonstrators. I think that Donald Trump is not popular in this country -- America is. And we are longstanding friends of America and indeed Canada -- and it does not mean that we need to get the President of the United States the honour of a state banquet.

CO: Well he is President of the United States and he will remain so at least until 2020 and possibly quite beyond that. Just a question -- so what concerns do you have that this is someone that your country is going to need especially if you leave the European Union, that this relationship with President Trump needs to be maintained?

EMILY THORNBERRY: Let's just roll it back a little bit. I mean what also concerns me is the idea that the Trump family are using her majesty as some sort of backdrop for some re-election campaign. And they are using Britain as some kind of -- we are some sort of cute extras for his re-election. I think that's completely inappropriate and it is wrong. A state visit is an honour -- and an honour for those who deserve it. If he continues to be the American president, if he gets re-elected, then we will have to deal with him. But I am quite clear -- so the way that you deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

CO: Ms. Thornberry will leave it there and thank you.

EMILY THORNBERRY: Okay. Not at all -- all right then.

DF: Emily Thornberry is the UK Labour Party's Shadow Foreign Secretary. We reached her outside of Buckingham Palace in London earlier today. As protesters and other curious onlookers gathered outside the palace, some tourists from Toronto strolled through oblivious to the political storm. Here they are talking to a Sky News reporter earlier today.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Just done with quite a few of those who've turned out today to see the spectacle -- some of them actually didn't even realize, would you believe, that it was President Trump that was visiting here today. We can speak to a couple of those. They've come all the way from Toronto in Canada. Hi. Thanks for speaking to us live on Sky News. This is a big surprise to you. You thought it was changing of the guard.

VOICE 2: [Chuckles] Yeah we did. We're just walking by and we saw a bunch of people so we thought we'd come over.

VOICE 1: We just kind of threw this little spectacle for visitors all the time...

VOICE 2: Yeah we didn't know. It was pretty cool.

VOICE 1: Are you happy to see Mr. Trump?

VOICE 2: No...

VOICE 3: Just saying no comment. [Laughs]

VOICE 1: We're expecting that at some point the president's motorcade will be coming out of here -- you're sticking around for that? Or now that you know it is President Trump you'll be off to see other things?

VOICE 2: We'll probably leave -- yeah. [Laughter] We like Justin Trudeau.

VOICE 1: Yeah.

VOICE 2: Yeah. Not Donald Trump.

DF: From Sky News those are two Canadians who found themselves outside Buckingham Palace today just before the arrival of U.S. President Donald Trump. For more on the story visit our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Veronica Tennant

Guest: Veronica Tennant

DF: On June 2nd, 1969, the curtain went up -- and an expectant Ottawa audience heard these discordant notes.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music playing]

DF: And for a town of civil servants, that composition was not quite what people were expecting. It was part of an avant-garde ambitious ballet called "Kraanerg." And it was the opening performance for the brand new National Arts Centre. The NAC celebrated its 50th anniversary yesterday. And when it opened back then it was a huge deal. 40,000 Canadians flooded into Ottawa to check the building out. Media from around the world came to report on it. And the CBC even did an hour-long live special. Bruno Gerussi was reporting for the CBC that night. Here's part of what he said as he scanned the crowd.

SOUNDCLIP

BRUNO GERUSSI: Opening night -- the crowd thicking. It's been an interesting mixture to observe. Carnaby Street down to old school tie. Miniskirts and knee length mink. Ruffled shirts and a faint trace of mothballs. The Canadian scene on the eve of the 70s.

DF: Some sounds from the opening night at the NAC. Veronica Tennant was the first artist to ever perform on the NAC stage as principal soloist with the National Ballet of Canada. We reached her in Toronto.

CO: Ms. Tennant we just heard that CBC reporter -- Bruno Gerussi -- describing the crowd's ruffled shirts, miniskirts, and the faint trace of mothballs. What memories does that bring back for you?

VERONICA TENNANT: [Laughs] Well there was certainly an electricity in the air behind the scenes as well. When I say electricity it really was a current that just transmitted vertically from front to back and back to front. And it's just delightful to hear that description -- it's so visual.

CO: For people perhaps now the excitement of that kind of an arts showcase opening up in Canada -- well there's so many places, venues, now -- but in 1969, a very specific time, wasn't it? So what was it about that time that made the opening of the National Arts Centre such an enormous deal?

VT: Well I think if you just go back two years to '67 which was our centennial and this was a very pivotal point I think in Canada's sensibility and cultural sensibility of our identity. I think it was very much a hot button right then: who are we? And what are we? And the opening of the Arts Centre I think placed everything on a viewing that you could actually participate in. It wasn't talk anymore. It was something viscerally vibrant and exciting.

CO: Everyone was thrilled to have this place on the Rideau. But what was it actually like as a building -- it looked like a bunch of concrete boxes piled on top of each other?

VT: But you know I have to say and I'll say it again and again this was absolutely my most favorite stage in all the years that I danced with the National Ballet of Canada. There is something magical about being on that stage at the National Arts Centre feeling an audience, having a large and expansive and welcoming stage. Some of my most memorable performances are there beginning of course with Kraanerg.

CO: Now I want to ask you about that Kraanerg because we just heard a bit of the sound of it -- very discordant notes of that composition. This was commissioned for this opening. Of all the ballets you could have showcased and it's an opening for the National Arts Centre, why that one?

VT: Well you see here again I admire and in retrospect understand Celia Franca's audacity and her understanding that this was far more important than the National Ballet of Canada opening an evening to be remembered. I mean the world watched as Ottawa opened the National Arts Centre. The world was aware. And this score which we just heard -- which even today would be innovative and shocking and startling -- that as you said discordant sounds. But there's something tantalising about it.

CO: How did you do the steps -- how did you keep the beat?

VT: Well here it was a mammoth ballet in terms of casts. So there was the entire National Ballet of Canada plus students from the National Ballet School. And then there were the leading dancers myself and [inaudible] From Paris Opera. And there was no queues in the music so Daniel Seillier -- who was our ballet master -- was in the front, I'll never forget it, he was in the right front wing and he had a microphone touch to his lips and he'd go [makes sounds] and he would beat out the entire ballet for two hours. It was magnificent actually. I don't know if we'd be able to do that today.

CO: National Arts Centre -- it was a cutting edge technology as well, wasn't it -- at the time? But you did have an interesting technical snafu in the middle of Romeo and Juliet. What happened?

VT: It was the next day. It was a matinee performance -- the place was still sort of shimmering with the sort of the magnificence and the excitement of what had happened the night before. And what happened was the orchestra pit was separated into three parts and almost to the beat the middle section started to raise up and then left the two other sections of the orchestra down behind. And the astonished look on the musicians faces as not only did they rise to our level but they kept on going [laughs].

CO: Oh my God.

VT: So she had to absolutely -- she had to conduct from the stage. She marched into the wings and said bring in the curtain. So they brought in the curtain. But you know what? They couldn't get it down all the way. So there was about three feet where you could see all these feet scurrying around and not only the ballet slippers but also the crew running around in sneakers and boots trying to rectify things.

CO: And wasn't there's something that -- some gesture on the part of one of the string players...

VT: You know forever humorous the viola player -- and I forget his name right now --but I'll never forget it. He had tied a white handkerchief to the tip of his bow. He waved it -- so all the audience could finally see was this waving white flag of defeat [laughter].

CO: The opening night -- there are extraordinary photos of people: Pierre Elliott Trudeau there with his latest date, Madeleine Gobeil. That was 1969. Do you think it would be such a big deal in Canada if it was opening today?

VT: Well you know 50 years is 50 years. And I would like to think that actually 50 years and counting, there's even more excitement, there's even more understanding, there's even more cherishing of just how important our performing arts are.

CO: But it was a moment in Canadian cultural nationalism as you point out -- it was a time when we were finding identity. Do you think that had a lot to do with it?

VT: I do. You know the National Art Centre has become so much more than a performing venue. It's really a part of our heritage and our ongoing legacy. So that it was only the beginning. I mean it was to prove so conducive to the catalyzing and generating of the performing arts.

CO: Just a few years later in an interview in 1973 you spoke about whether Canadian dance even existed. And I just want to play a clip of what you had to say in 1973.

SOUNDCLIP

VT: Canadians are tremendously aware -- almost too much so right now about their national identity and so we often look at things and say well that's good but is it Canadian? And are we being distinctive enough? In forming dance in this country, the people that formed it took the best of everything. In a way we're in a very unique position in that since we didn't have our own traditions we started from scratch 21 years ago, and we were able to beg, borrow, and steal from the best. And we are able to sift through what we had and proven it and I can say that our style is not Russian, it is not English, it is not French, it is not Danish, it certainly is not American. It's a sort of a unique blend on its own.

CO: That was you in 1973. That Canadian style -- do you still feel and see that today?

VT: Oh the Canadian style is very much imprinted around the world as one of the absolute touch points and examples of where classical and contemporary ballet can go and has gone and will go. I would say that I can now say to myself with those words in '73 there's a bit of an apologia there. We've come into our own and we know who we are and we're still exploring.

CO: Do you think it's just as exciting for a young ballerina to dance on the stage of the National Arts Centre tonight or today as it was when you were there?

VT: Absolutely. Again let me tell you that stage is magical to dance on. I treasure very special memories of being on that stage.

CO: Ms. Tennant it's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you.

VT: For me too. Thank you so much.

DF: Veronica Tennant is a producer, director, filmmaker, and the former principal dancer for the National Ballet of Canada. We reached her in Toronto.

[Music]

Pogo stick

DF: What's the farthest you've ever travelled on a pogo stick? If you answered less than a metre forwards and then pretty much straight down -- join the club. So when I tell you there's a Swedish pogo stick sharing start-up that claims it will disrupt the way we look at mobility in urban areas forever you'll assume I'm making a weird joke. Well I'm not. But you're not the first to assume someone is. Which is why the Swedish start-up's press release begins with the sentence, quote, "With a lot of initial questions along the line of: Is this for real? We feel the need to underline that Cangaroo is 100 percent real." Okay. So here's the 100 percent real plan. Cangaroo will have an app where you can locate its available pogo sticks in your city. Then you pay to take one of these environmentally friendly healthy totally inefficient pogo sticks to -- I don't know: an important shareholders meeting or your wedding? It'll be like a bike sharing service only more ridiculous, more bouncy, and less plausible. According to the allegedly real company it has plans to start with modest pogo stick distribution in Stockholm and Malmo, Sweden, before expanding to London, San Francisco, and possibly Paris. Or it's a semi-elaborate joke. Or it's somewhere in the middle and they're just waiting to see how many people will jump on the opportunity.

[Music]

We Miss You Jeff

DF: It may not have sunk in yet, but it's true. Jeff Douglas -- our former fearless co-host is no longer sitting in this chair. Jeff has headed home to Nova Scotia to be the new host of Mainstreet Halifax. On Friday we paid tribute to him and after the show we heard from you. On Twitter, Joel Pearce wrote, "I'll truly missed his humor and wordplay but especially his dedicated professionalism. Of course he would never remember meeting us at the London Airshow and Balloon Festival back when he was still a young man doing his 'I am Canadian' but I sure will. Thanks for the memories and all the best in Nova Scotia." Talkback also had some thoughts.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I've been listening to you forever. Unfortunately I lost my sight about five years ago and all that kept me sane through my blindness was you and Carol. I absolutely never miss it. I have so appreciated you, and your humor, your beautiful voice. It has meant everything to me.

VOICE 2: Hi talkback it's Jude calling from Windsor, Ontario. I just listened to your song -- your goodbye song to Carol -- and Carol if you weren't weeping...I was. And I'm still all messed up. Going to miss Jeff. I know you're going to miss Jeff too. Jeff I wish you all the best always. But oh boy have you made As It Happens so super enjoyable for me. And I'm going to miss [Imitating Jeff] The Friday Edition -- so much. Thanks guys. Bye.

DF: Sounds like someone might be gunning for this job. And while we're missing Jeff today, East Coast listeners are rejoicing including Laura Kennedy. On Facebook she wrote, "I know it's selfish but I am so excited that I get Jeff back on Mainstreet. Welcome back to Nova Scotia." Thanks to everyone who took the time to write, call, and message us. And Jeff, break a leg out East buddy.

[Music]

Part 3: Sudan Violence

Sudan Violence

Guest: Fadia

DF: Optimism turned to bloodshed in the streets of Khartoum today. It's been less than two months since street protests helped oust Sudan's brutal President Omar al-Bashir. But this morning, armed militias opened fire on those same protesters. More than a dozen people are reported to have died with many more injured. Fadia was on her way to the protest camp when the group she was with came under fire. We reached her in Khartoum. And for Fadia's safety we aren't using her full name.

CO: Fadia what is going on in Khartoum tonight? Are you safe where you are?

FADIA: Sort of. There is still shooting around us but I can say I'm safe as long as I didn't get shot yet.

CO: When did you first realize that these militia men were actually shooting at the protesters?

FADIA: It was 5 a.m. something -- I'm not really sure -- but I was awake. I saw that on Facebook that people started to post some live videos of the shooting, and so many of the people who were doing the live videos were shot actually while they were sharing for us to show us what's going on inside the system.

CO: But when you heard that they were shooting protesters, you started to go to the camp. What motivated you to do that?

FADIA: Is to do what I'm able to do is to be with them. Unfortunately yesterday was the only night I couldn't reach the [inaudible] but I go there every day literally on a daily basis and I stay the night until the morning. But for some reason I couldn't do that yesterday. And when I found this happening I decided just to go.

CO: They said at first they put out smoke bombs and then they opened fire. Is that the sequence?

FADIA: Well I'll tell you what I saw on the live video. They surrounded the entire area. They started throwing tear gas, hitting people, and hitting them with a stick, burning the tents. We have the news of burnt people inside these tents -- [inaudible] -- and then the fire you know there was shooting them.

CO: The people who were shot -- we know that at least 13 people were killed, many others were injured. But you're saying that as well people were inside the tents when they set them on fire. What happened with those people? What have you heard?

FADIA: Well we heard that there is so many bodies of people (who) are burned inside because they burned the entire area. They burned the stages. They burned the tents. They burned the cars. There are so many burnt cars. So they literally burned the place. And there is so many bodies they couldn't get out. And then I lost the contact because I have no internet and so everyone did. Internet was the only thing that keeps us in touch and let us know exactly the update of the injuries and the death -- and these things. Now I don't know anything about that.

CO: Can you tell us about the particular security force that was sent in -- that went in to do this. Because the governing council said it wasn't regular Sudanese forces. Can you tell us about this Rapid Support Force that was apparently the militia that went in to attack the protesters?

FADIA: There weren't only the Rapid Support Forces. And we really don't tend to call them Rapid Support Forces. They don't deserve it because they are Janjaweed militia -- they are militia. They are not even forces for God's sake. So as you know most of the Janjaweed -- their Arabians and some of them are not Sudanese. Some of them are from Chad. Some of them speak French. This is what we have noticed and some other people have noticed.

CO: And this is what we understand that this Janjaweed were the forces that went into Darfur and committed the massacres there in the past. So this is at least one of these forces that was there was these Janjaweed?

FADIA: Yes because their Commander Mohammed Hamdan is the vice president of the military council -- of course his forces will be all over around and that's what is happening since day one. They are all around. The other force they are wearing blue -- so apparently they're the force of youth group in the past protest. And there is a different force that were wearing total black that I couldn't recognize. They could be special forces or something.

CO: How many were there?

FADIA: Plenty -- they're everywhere. And for a while I felt like Oh my God Janjaweed took over Khartoum, they're going to kill everyone, they are going to take over just like they do in Darfur. And as you noticed what they did -- burning tents and burning the area is the exact same behaviour they used to do in Darfur. They burn villages and burn people alive. That's what they do.

CO: You yourself were shot at when you were trying to get there. How did you get away?

FADIA: Well I had to wait for a very long time until I make sure that the street is a little bit clear that there is not so many pickup trucks and try to act normal in the street. So I just walked without saying anything. And I just did it -- I went away eventually. We were under fire for hours.

CO: And your concern was is that if they knew you were part of the protest that something would have happened to you?

FADIA: Yeah. I mean if they saw me earlier in the middle of the street making a live video of course I'd get shot.

CO: Fadia what is happening tonight? You said that the power is off.

FADIA: Well since they did this blackout of network and electricity I think something bad might going to happen. Something even worse.

CO: What are you doing to keep yourself safe?

FADIA: I don't know. I really don't know. Excuse me I feel a little bit stressed.

CO: It's completely understandable.

FADIA: Well there is nothing I can do but just try to avoid getting shot. This is all I can do to keep alive.

CO: Will you go back out to the protest camp if it's still functioning?

FADIA: Yes of course but we have to know what is going on outside. I still hear the shootings in my neighbourhood that means the pickup trucks are everywhere surrounding the area.

CO: Fadia please stay safe and we will do the best we can to find out what's going on and why this happened. And I appreciate that you would speak with us tonight. Thank you.

FADIA: Thank you so much.

DF: Fadia is among the activists calling for responsible government in Sudan. We reached her in Khartoum. And for Fadia's safety we aren't using her full name.

[Music]

Jared Kushner

DF: Jared Kushner has no problem dismissing the idea that Donald Trump is a racist. The challenge for Mr. Kushner appears to come when he's asked whether he thinks that the things his presidential father-in-law has done were racist. The White House negotiator and advisor-extraordinaire has given a rare interview to Jonathan Swan of the U.S. program Axios on HBO. The show has released some highlights including one where Mr. Swan questions Jared Kushner about criticism of President Trump from one of the Democrat's rising stars.

SOUNDCLIP

JONATHAN SWAN: Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez -- she has called President Trump a racist. Have you ever seen him say or do anything that you would describe as racist or bigoted?

JARED KUSHNER: So the answer is no -- absolutely not. You can't not be a racist for 69 years then run for president and be a racist. And what I'll say is that when a lot of the Democrats call the president racist, I think they're doing a disservice to people who suffer because of real racism in this country.

JONATHAN SWAN: Was birtherism racist?

JARED KUSHNER: Look I wasn't really involved in that.

JONATHAN SWAN: I know you weren't. Was it racist?

JARED KUSHNER: Like I said I wasn't involved in that.

JONATHAN SWAN: I know you weren't. Was it racist?

JARED KUSHNER: Look I know who the president is and I've not seen anything in him that is racist. So again I was not involved in that.

JONATHAN SWAN: Did you wish he didn't do that?

JARED KUSHNER: Like I said I was not involved in that. That was a long time ago.

JONATHAN SWAN: The other issue that often gets brought up in this conversation is that he campaigned on banning Muslims. Would you describe that as religiously bigoted?

JARED KUSHNER: Look I think that the president did his campaign the way he did his campaign...

JONATHAN SWAN: He did -- but you wish he didn't make that speech?

JARED KUSHNER: I think he's here today and I think he's doing a lot of great things for the country and that's what I'm proud of.

DF: That was White House Innovations Director and presidential son-in-law Jared Kushner speaking with Jonathan Swan for the program Axios on HBO.

[Music]

Apricot seeds

DF: Apricot seeds, or kernels, look a lot like almonds. But here's an important tip: Do not confuse the two. A handful of almonds is a satisfying snack. A handful of apricot seeds could land you in the hospital. Apricot seeds are found inside the pit of an apricot and you can usually find them at health food stores. But the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is reminding people of the dangers of consuming too many of the seeds. The CFIA announced that a company called Ecoideas innovations Inc was recalling its Apricot Power product because it could cause cyanide poisoning. Brendan Brogan knows what that's like. In November 2017, As It Happens spoke to the Montreal man after he ate about 40 apricot seeds. They weren't the same brand as this week's recall but they landed him in the emergency room. Here's Brendan Brogan telling Carol about his ordeal.

SOUNDCLIP

BB: I was just going to treat myself to a luxury snack and that's what I chose. It was a new and interesting thing that I had never seen and I love bitter food.

CO: So you bought $16 worth of apricot kernel's and started to eat them?

BB: Yup. I was at a friend's house and my friend that I was staying with is deathly allergic to nuts and he walked by and said “I hope they're not eating almonds they'll kill me.” And I just looked at him and said “Nope, don't worry about it because these are these apricot kernels. No problem. They're not nuts.” And he said to me “You better be careful with those, they're poisonous.” And I said “That can’t be. I just bought them at the Rachelle-Béry. They're healthy. Look it says super food on them.” And he said “Read the label.” And at that point I read the label and saw that you shouldn't eat more than two or three of them per day. And I had just probably munched down about 40 of them.

CO: Oh my. And were you having any affects at that point?

BB: No I got a little nervous to say the least, I was fearful but I was feeling strange, you know. There were no affects from any cyanide poisoning that I could tell.

CO: So what did you do?

BB: We called the poison centre immediately and they told us to head down to the nearest hospital, which was five blocks away, and check into the emergency room, which we promptly did.

CO: What did you learn there?

BB: I had to drink a huge glass of charcoal soup, which was like eating seven or eight charcoal bricks from a barbecue, and then they tested my blood every couple hours.

CO: What is the kind of poison that's in them?

BB: Cyanide apparently is how it metabolizes in your body.

CO: How do you get cyanide poisoning from these?

BB: Apparently something in the body changes it and it becomes cyanide when you digest it.

CO: But did say the word cyanide appear anywhere on this bag from which you were having your snack?

BB: Yeah it does. But it was a tiny warning and it was about three sentences long. It said that Health Canada recommends more than two or three of these may cause cyanide poisoning or something like that.

DF: That was Brendan Brogan telling Carol in November 2017 about how eating a bunch of apricot seeds landed him in the hospital with cyanide poisoning.

[Music]

Shoal Lake Road

Guest: Erwin Redsky

DF: They call it Freedom Road. After a hundred years, the Shoal Lake 40 First Nation finally has a permanent road linking it to the rest of the country. The reserve is on the Ontario-Manitoba border. For the last century it's been sitting as an isolated piece of land surrounded by water on all sides because of an aqueduct built to bring water to Winnipeg. Today, the community is kicking off four days of events to celebrate the opening of Freedom Road and the end of that isolation. Erwin Redsky is the Chief of Shoal Lake 40 and that's where we reached him.

CO: Chief Redsky what will it mean to your community to finally have this road?

ERWIN REDSKY: Well it's going to mean everything. It's going to mean freedom. It's going to mean get in and out of our community safely anytime. No curfews. It's going to I mean hope for the future for the kids -- the youth -- being part of Canada.

CO: We know that the city of Winnipeg has some of the best drinking water in the world. What price did your community -- your people -- pay to make that possible?

ER: We paid the ultimate price. Unfortunately we did lose people because of that water. And you know as a First Nation community -- we were a mainland community before they decide to draw water from this area and you know we just...we suffered all these years and over the years later, and we're finally getting a road up here...it's mind boggling when you think about it. But yes our communities paid quite the price you know for another community to benefit.

CO: And just for a bit of history -- first of all that you were relocated to Shoal Lake because they wanted to put in the infrastructure for the water to Winnipeg. But then how did Shoal Lake 40 -- that part of Shoal Lake, it was a peninsula, how did it become an island?

ER: In the early 1900s the city Winnipeg was looking for a water source -- they saw themselves as the Chicago of the North. And they were looking for clean water and they had other options but they decided finally -- ultimately decided to draw water from Shoal Lake which is 100 miles east of Winnipeg. And finally in 1915 Canada expropriated our best land that we had -- a thousand acres of our best land that we had -- and cut that land -- our reserve land into three pieces so we weren't able to access one part of our reserve land to get to the other part. So it was very difficult for our people.

CO: And people who lived on the island -- it was this manmade island -- had to rely on some ways of crossing the water. There was a barge when it could operate when it did function. Winter season they didn't have it at all. What did that mean for people who lived on that part of Shoal Lake?

ER: It was very difficult just to exercise the basic things -- getting your mail, getting groceries to our island community was very treacherous especially in the fall -- it would freeze up -- and the spring thaw. People were risking their lives just to get home. And it was very difficult to live under those conditions and that's why we're celebrating today. You know? We don't want to dwell on the past but we don't want to forget what happened to our community and because building this road -- as we call it: road to reconciliation -- it is just the beginning in terms of our First Nation and you know being active participants in an economy. And as a peoples we were always self-sufficient and we will become that once again.

CO: Why was there so much resistance to building the road and getting you to have some way for your people to get off and on Shoal Lake 40?

ER: Well I think the city of Winnipeg because they occupied our ancestral lands here for the past 100 years -- their form of water treatment let's just stop any and all developments at the source of the water supply which was where we lived for the past thousand years. And you know we live off that land, we live off that water, and as Anishinaabe people of this country it's our sacred responsibility to protect our land and waters because it provides life for us and that I was our formal treatment to stop all any development in water source.

CO: One of the I guess the ironies of this story is that while all of this was done to give Winnipeg this excellent drinking water, your community has terrible water. It has been on a boil water advisory for a very long time so why is that? How can you explain that?

ER: It's hard to explain to just a normal Canadian citizen. And in city of Winnipeg opened their Canadian Museum for Human Rights in 2014 we were there. We were there. We lit our sacred fire. We pitched up our teepee and we educated not only Winnipeggers, Canadians, and just people from around the world about what's going on here 100-miles to the east -- it is our community and we have suffered for the past 100 years. It's not right. And here we are -- we're still under the boil water advisory for the past 20 years. That's the whole irony of this whole story is that one community benefiting from that resource and one community suffers. But we're going to continue on. Now everyone knows. Every Canadians should know. Every elementary school should know what the history of our Indigenous people of this land is all about -- reconciliation, its first step to recognize the wrongs and start working rights. And we're looking forward to that next phase of our community moving forward.

CO: And if somebody is in the market for a barge can we direct them to you?

ER: Yeah. By all means -- yeah we got some calls that are interested and we hope that you know -- I had mixed feelings when I saw you know our barge ferry sitting on dry land. You know it provided are only the lifeline for a long long time and you know with the new road coming in -- it's really neat. For a barge ferry it is awfully expensive to own and operate and to maintain so basically cost us maybe a house or two every year for the past 30 years.

CO: You're not doing a good job at selling it here.

ER: [Laughs] I don't want to sell it. If somebody wants to buy it -- for a reasonable price, we will let it go.

CO: Chief Redsky congratulations on your accomplishment and thank you for speaking with us.

ER: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

DF: That was Erwin Redsky Chief of Shoal Lake 40 First Nation. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Edward Seaga

DF: It's a famous photo: Bob Marley clasping together the hands of two opposing political leaders -- Edward Seaga and Michael Manley -- during a time of bloodshed in Jamaica. The cry for peace didn't exactly work. But two years later in 1980, it did seem like the country was heading into a time of prosperity. Mr. Seaga had just been elected as prime minister. The conservative leader died on Tuesday. He was 89 years old. On the eve of the election that would make him prime minister Mr. Seaga spoke with As It Happens guest host Peter Gzowski. Four people had just been shot dead, and Mr. Seaga was calling on his supporters to lock down the country if his opponent rigged the election. From October 29, 1980, here's that conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

EDWARD SEAGA: We're doing extremely well. The polls show us winning 43 to 45 seats out of the 60 seats in parliament.

PETER GZOWSKI: I heard about that poll. I've also heard others that say you're at least tied and probably ahead. I'm wondering therefore why you're saying that you would call a general strike if the election isn't held in a straightforward way? It almost sounds like someone who's losing.

EDWARD SEAGA: No. What I said is that the polls predict what would happen if there is a free and fair election. And for a free and fair election -- the elections must also be free from fear.

PETER GZOWSKI: The violence throughout the campaign or at least as we've read and heard about it from here has not been all on one side.

EDWARD SEAGA: No -- it is not all on one side. But if you take just a day [inaudible] this morning of that indication -- run an analysis of what has happened over the last few months indicating how many incidents of violence have affected the people against the PNP and we are the losers by far and in fact we are the losers that only turns out general supporters but we are also the losers in terms of candidates being shot at etc.

PETER GZOWSKI: Just the climate of Jamaica as a whole -- people have been reluctant to go there as tourists in recent years, they've been reluctant to invest dollars there. It doesn't look like a peaceful future right now.

EDWARD SEAGA: Well it doesn't like a peaceful future because you're in the middle of a struggle. Once the elections are held -- and the issues of the struggle have been settled -- by virtue of the election we hope to win big so that there will be confidence that we are not only in for a five year deal but at least a 10 year period.

DF: That was Edward Seaga the former prime minister of Jamaica speaking on As It Happens in October 1980. Mr. Seaga died on Tuesday, on his 89th birthday.

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June 3, 2019 Episode Transcript

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