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The Current Transcript for May 23, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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Of course we're worried. Are we worried for our safety? No. Are we worried for the community? We would have to be silly not to be with that kind of a monster on our doorstep.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: Leslie Snyder is one of the few who has stayed in high level Alberta keeping her Tim Horton’s open to serve up coffee and meals to the crews battling a raging fire just south of the town. Reinforcements are on the way today for a fire that has already got the unwelcome distinction of being rated at the top of the danger and intensity scale and its arrival at the start of a season that has experts admitting they need to find new ways to confront the hotter, faster fires expected to sweep across parts of western Canada and the U.S. in the coming months. We're on that story in a moment. Also today:

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When he was a little boy he was really into science. If somebody was speaking about you know something and he would correct them they'd have this little Harry Potter glasses and could push him up and he'd say 'scientifically I don't think that's right'.

AMT: Debbie Baptiste's memory of her son as a little boy is not the description that many in the public heard of Colten Boushie in the frenzy surrounding his shooting death in Saskatchewan in 2016. Now a new film lingers on the perspective of his family telling his story and theirs within the historical context of the harsh and unforgiving legal treatment of his Indigenous ancestors. We'll hear from the director and a member of the family in half an hour. And then:.

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I'm frustrated that I'm not being able to help them. And also I'm frustrated that the whole world is not being able to do anything.

AMT: She's in Canada but her brother, father, sister, brother in law and sister in law, all members of the Muslim weaker community have been in custody in Western China. The Globe and meals is Nathan Vanderklippe has gone to extraordinary lengths to find out about the camps where so many are detained and the Chinese government has gone to extraordinary lengths to discourage him. Nathan Vanderklippe joins me in an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

Fire-driven weather is 'new reality' for Canada and elsewhere, expert cautions

Guests: Monica Longard, Simon Rogers, Ed Struzik

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So I was watching all my neighbours one by one pack up and leave. And there I was sitting on my porch just kind of hoping and praying that I wouldn't be left behind with no radio or anything. It was terrifying. I tell you that little trailer is all I have. No insurance. So I went packed up my cats but I still didn't have a right. So I had to make a little impromptu help sign. I just didn't know you know I thought I'd be better off hitchhiking. So that's what I did.

AMT: Corey Walsh was running from wildfire this week, one of about 4000 residents of high level Alberta who received evacuation orders. It's a sure sign that wildfire season is back in the West.

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Hell on earth is what it looked like. You could actually see from town red streaks in the sky that I guess were the enormous flames that you could actually see the flames licking nothing but an enormous column of smoke. And it blotted out half the sky.

AMT: Corey Walsh hopped on his bike riding up and down the streets near his trailer until he could flag down a ride to the local arena. He caught a bus out of town he's in Slave Lake now staying with a friend. The wild fire is burning strong flames and plumes of smoke engulfing more than 92000 hectares of forest. It's within a few kilometres of town and rated at the highest possible danger level, with more hot dry weather expected the community is being asked to stay out of their homes longer than originally anticipated. Monica Longard left her home in High Level on Monday. She is in Grimshaw, Alberta this morning. Simon Rogers helped evacuate the community as a member of the Canadian Forces Rangers. He and his young family are now in Grand Prairie. Hello to you both.

MONICA LONGARD: Hello.

SIMON ROGERS: Hello.

AMT: Monica I want to start with you. What was it like as you were leaving High Level? What did you see?

MONICA LONGARD: With everybody left quite early but it is scary I mean to when you look in one direction and it's bright blue sky, and you look in the other direction and like that other guy said, you can see this huge column of smoke and you can see flames. I've never seen it that close before.

AMT: And Monica you had just come back into town had you not? You were camping or something weren't you before?

MONICA LONGARD: Yes. We spent the long weekend camping in the Northwest Territories and came back and had enough time to pack a few more things and throw our animals in the trailer and then go.

AMT: So you could that you could see smoke and flames.

MONICA LONGARD: Yes in a few places you could see the flame.

AMT: Simon, what about you? What were you doing? You were part of the group that made sure the town was evacuated. How did you do that?

SIMON ROGERS: So we were trained for like the High Level Ranger patrol group. We were mobilized around four o'clock on the Monday. And so that was when the evacuation order had been formally declared. And so our patrol of about six or seven guys and a lady of course, we were tasked with helping the RCMP and the local bylaw officers and the sheriff's officers, just go door to door throughout the community making sure that everybody was either out of our house or there was an empty building or people were aware that the order had been given to evacuate, and to give them options in terms of resources that they could use to both get evacuated and then to where the reception centres were located in Slave Lake or Grand Prairie itself.

AMT: And how quickly were people moving, Simon?

SIMON ROGERS: They were moving fairly quickly by the time. One thing that I think the town did a good job of letting people know what was going on. So really I myself only encountered three people that were not aware that the order had been given. And once they were told of the situation they quickly got themselves organized within about 10 15 minutes and then they were sort of on their way at that point as well.

AMT: And so what you ended up on streets that were essentially empty sometimes, eh?

SIMON ROGERS: Yes some streets for the majority part yes, the streets are empty. I myself and my co-worker Theresa we ended up clearing a hotel. Sorry. An apartment building. That building was it was quite empty. We only found two people inside that were again unaware of what was going on and they left as quickly as they could do but for the most part here things were quite empty.

AMT: And I'm really struck by those pictures. It looks like a wall of fire on the outskirts of town. How scared were people?

SIMON ROGERS: I think there was a sense of shock. I've been sort of thinking about it and reflecting on it for the last one or two days. There was one older gentleman who I don't think had access to social media or anything like that. And he was very very shocked to be told that the evacuation order being given. There is a fire outside of town and essentially I gave him about 10 minutes to get his medications together in order and some of his paperwork and he was just I think very shocked that this was happening. Looking at his face I don't think he really quite grasped that this was actually happening. It was just very- He didn't know what to do, I don't think. is He was having a hard time processing it, another way of putting it.

AMT: Have either of you seen this in High Level before?

MONICA LONGARD: I've lived there for just a little over 20 years and every year you go through fire season and you see bits of smoke and the town is- when you get up in the morning or throughout the day, you can see the smoke. And there has been different years where it's smokier than others and some years you're like Oh okay, this is a little scary. But in 20 years I've never had to evacuate like not even the thought never. It wasn't even ever a possibility. It was like, oh, yeah there's fire season and we have friends who are firefighters and they keep you updated. But they're like Oh no nothing's anywhere near town at all. A couple of years ago we had one that was got fairly close to one of our mills. But they had it out immediately like it was never any danger to the town. So. And my husband's lived in High Level and the community for over 30 years. And same thing. He's never actually had to leave town. So it's pretty scary now.

AMT: Monica you have a store don't you?

MONICA LONGARD: I do I own a business in the downtown core. Yes.

AMT: So do you have to lock that up to I guess, huh, to get out.

MONICA LONGARD: I had it all locked out for the long weekend but I went in and made sure everything was still locked up. My alarm system was still working. Battery power. But it is it's scary not knowing what's going on and I have a friend who actually is one of the people who has stayed in town to see the emergency workers and she sent a picture of the main street. I'm like Okay yes, my building is still there, that made me feel a little bit better.

AMT: How did you decide what to take with you, Monica, when you were packing up?

MONICA LONGARD: It is hard. I mean I went down to my store and grabbed the important papers I could think of. I grabbed my passport. I threw a bunch of clothes in a suitcase and my husband and I were quite lucky that our trailer was basically all packed already. And then we're like how do - we have cats -where we put the cats? Because we never take them. It's kind of a blur and of course next time Simon said after a couple of days reflect like oh I should have brought this, I should have brought this. So but we've got great friends who sort of fill in the gaps for you.

AMT: You've got dogs too, huh?

MONICA LONGARD: I do. They just think this is, oh yeah, we get to camp longer woo hoo. They're thinking this is wonderful. They're good.

AMT: Simon, what about you? Your wife and kids like they had to get out while you were getting other people out. What did you decide to take with you?

SIMON ROGERS: We grabbed some of our important papers. Even driving yesterday, my wife sort of commented all we've left our wedding picture on the wall and that sort of thing. And then we're kind of idly looking in the back of a van thinking why on earth that we spend so much time bringing seven pairs of socks when you didn't bring our wedding picture. You know that kind of thing.

SIMON ROGERS: We grabbed a lot of toys that the boys would want. I mean this my boys I don't think really appreciate what has happened or what is happening I should say. So we kind of grabbed a bunch of DVDs and their Nintendo switches and that sort of thing to keep them sort of occupied and as common as possible and trying to make this as normal as possible.

AMT: How old are they, Simon?

SIMON ROGERS: My eldest is seven the youngest is four. I think they're kind of thinking that this is just a vacation at this point and I think they're too young to really grasp what's happening and what's going on. They just know that we've been on the road for two days and they're tired of course and that kind of thing. They think it's a bit of a vacation where we've bumped into fellow people from High Level along the way that they kind of know. So I think it helps them a bit because it's some kind of making a bit normalizing things for them because they can still see their friends and that kind of thing.

AMT: But I guess the worry, neither one of you knows right now like what's going to happen. That's hard.

SIMON ROGERS: No no. I mean the original evacuation order was 72 hours which is if my maths is correct would expire at 4:00 p.m. today. But I think the general message I'm receiving is that we might be out of our homes for a bit longer.

MONICA LONGARD: The most frustrating part is not knowing.

AMT: What do you make of the idea that the experts are saying these kinds of evacuations can be the beginning of a new normal?

MONICA LONGARD: Something you want to think about. But I mean as we're talking to all the family and friends and you know they say things, well, you know, you've got out, you're say right now your home is still standing. So you've got to try to think of the positive.

AMT: And Simon you've also been bouncing around I guess. Like how many places if you've pinned since you guys drove out?

SIMON ROGERS: We've stayed in three places. So we're now in Grand Prairie and I'm pretty sure we're going to be staying here for the duration of this event, but the Monday night we stayed at a friend's house about 30 kilometres east of town. We slept in the back of our van so my wife pulled everything out and we slept in sleeping bags and that kind of thing with the boys in the back of the van. And that was in part because I wasn't released by the RCMP from helping with evacuation till about 8 o'clock. So I had to kind of meet up with her outside of town once my duties had been finished with that respect. So the first night was as I said in the back of a van 30 kilometres east of town, and then after that we on the Tuesday we started driving and we got to Slave Lake to the reception centre down there at the evacuation centre there. We were told that in Slave Lake there were no hotel accommodations available in Slave Lake. So then they arranged some hotel accommodation in High Prairie. So that's where we ended up on Tuesday night. And then yesterday being Wednesday we got in the car again and came down to Grand Prairie and that's where we are now. We've checked into the reception centre here, the evacuation centre here. We've done that the whole way they know where we are and they took us out with a hotel here in Grand Prairie.

AMT: Okay well I hope both of you get home to your homes and they're in good shape soon. Thank you both for talking to me as wait to see what happens.

MONICA LONGARD: No problem. We hope we do too.

AMT: Thanks. That's Monica long guard. She's a resident of high level she's in Grimshaw right now they're campaigning. Simon Rogers joined us from Grand Prairie. He's there with his family. Over the past few decades scientists have been tracking wildfires and watching as they grow bigger, hotter, more frequent, more destructive. It's posing a real challenge for people who fight them and for the people who need to get out of the way. Ed Struzik true has given a lot of thought to how wildfires are changing and how best to address them. He is the author of Fire Storm: How Wildfire will Shape our Future. He's also a fellow at the Institute for Energy and Environmental Policy at Queen's University. Ed Struzik joins us from Jasper, Alberta. Hi Ed.

ED STRUZIK: Hi Anna Maria.

AMT: What worries you about what's going on around High Level right now?

AMT: Well this is not the new normal but it's the new reality. We saw it in B.C., in the last two years and Alberta the year before, Waterton National Park Ontario got hit hard last year. I think this is what we're going to be seeing more of every summer.

AMT: And so you're in Jasper today. Tell me more about what's the expectations or the dread as it's pretty hot and dry in lots of Alberta and B.C.?

ED STRUZIK: Yes. Jasper's lucky in the sense that we've got a bit of light rain falling and they had some snow in the last couple of weeks which has I think you know slowed the potential for fire, but it's created another problem was that they wanted to do some controlled burning this year to thin out the forest around town and they weren't able to do that. And you know they've got a real problem here in Jasper National Park and Banff National Park has many other places in Western Canada have, is that they have the mountain pine beetle. I was involved in a aerial survey in 2011 where we counted only 400 trees in Jasper that were infected by the mountain pine beetle. They now have one hundred eighty three thousand hectares which is about three times the size of Toronto. All dead trees. It's a sea of red here in Jasper. And those trees are just waiting to be burned.

AMT: Alberta's premier Jason Kenney was asked on Tuesday about the fire in High Level and whether his government was prepared to deal with prolonged more intense fire seasons. Listen to how he responded.

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In this area there has not been a significant fire through here in about 80 years. So part of this is just burning off decades of accumulated fuel. It's inevitable. It's going to happen at some point. What's different now in 2019 is that we have more built up communities in Frontier areas like this. And so there is more of a risk there might have been eight decades ago.

AMT: What do you think of what he's saying there?

ED STRUZIK: Well he's half right. I mean the other the other problem is is that it's where it's significantly warmer and high level in other parts of western Canada, quite a bit warmer. Like 1.7 degrees according to the government's own statistics. And you know with every degrees Celsius we get 12 percent more lightning. We get more extended droughts. The fire season last longer. I think we have to address the fact that climate change is a major player in what we're seeing on the landscape right now.

AMT: Well and you've been at conferences looking at this, what are you learning?

ED STRUZIK: Well you know I was invited by the California Public Utilities Commission to essentially kick off what they thought was going to be a very small conference that was organized at the very last minute this spring and they ended up having to cut it off at 750 people that came around from the world. Everybody was there. There was Google, Microsoft, Siemens. All the major companies were there. The technology companies were there throwing ideas at the California government because the California government essentially admitted we've hit the wall. We've got a real serious problem. Climate change is exacerbating the problem. Let's hear what the ideas are. And there's a lot of exciting things going on but I don't think we see the equivalent here in Canada right now. The federal government alotted of five million dollars to wildfire research in the last budget that still hasn't come to fruition. I think there's still one more decision to be made about that. The five million dollars is not a lot of money.

AMT: And as the fires burn bigger and hotter we're also seeing a real change in weather systems. There's something called the firenado, what do you know about that?

ED STRUZIK: Well you know I mean we're what we're seeing now is these pyroCbs, these fire-driven thunderstorms on the landscape. There was an astonishing four that occurred in 2017 in B.C. and one simultaneously in neighbouring Washington. And I was talking to people from the U.S. naval defence lab in Washington D.C. who've been watching this along with people from NASA and other people from around the world and they were just stunned to see that kind of fire-weather activity. And then it happened not only in B.C., it happened in Texas last year. It's happened in Portugal. It's happened in South America and South Africa. We're starting to see these major, major weather events, fire-weather events spreading around the world. And that is throwing everybody for a loop, that's spinning heads.

AMT: But so there've been forest fires before but why do they create a weather system like that with lightning storms?

ED STRUZIK: They're just so hot that they just suck up all of the moisture and it's essentially like a classic thunderstorm that you have when it gets very hot and humid and it sucks up all the moisture and the heat and then raises it up, creates these pyrocumulus clouds, except there's a lot of carbon and dirty material that it's sucking up from the ground that's been burning. And so they sometimes call that the dirty thunderstorm but it can also create lightning. And so for example in 2016 we saw one of these pyroCb events ignite a cluster of fire more than 30 kilometres away from the fire's front. And how do you deal with that if you're a firefighter? I mean it's kind of like a Game of Thrones, you don't know where the dragon is going to be exhaling next. And I think that's what we have to start dealing with. This is the new reality, and our traditional response to wildfire is not going to be good enough in the future.

AMT: OK. It's true. Ed Struzik, clearly more questions need to be asked of the people in charge of all about them. Thanks for your time today.

ED STRUZIK: Thank you.

AMT: Ed Strzik author of Firestorm, How Wildfire will Shape our Future. He's a fellow at the Institute for Energy and Environmental Policy at Queen's University. He joined us from Jasper, Alberta today. Let us know what you think. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our Web site cbc.ca/thecurrent. As the fires grow and the intensity increases, let us know what you think as you listen to what he had to say. The news is next. And then what was Colten Boushie really like? And what was it like for the family of the young Indigenous man who lived through the trial of the farmer who shot him? We're going to look at that through the perspective of the family when we return. This is The Current. 2

'Deep grief, and outrage': New doc looks at Colten Boushie's family's fight for justice

Guests: Tasha Hubbard, Jade Tootoosis, Eleanore Sunchild

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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AMT: Still to come what is really happening inside China's so-called training camps for the Muslim minority Uighur people. The Globe and Mail's Asia correspondent Nathan Vanderklippe has been following that story for years with difficulty. He says that while reporting in Xinjiang province he was followed closely for 1600 kilometres. He'll join me in half an hour. But first putting Colten Boushie into focus.

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My cousins let me know, he was shot. They had a flat tyre and he was shot and I was like okay. You know like who shot him? You know, where did this happen? I had all these questions but they didn't have the details. But when I went on Facebook and I seen all these [crying] these mess these comments by people about 'thieving Indians getting what they deserved, don't go on people's property if you don't want to get shot'. You know 'we work hard for stuff and you're going to come and steal it I'd shoot you too', and reading all these comments I'm like messaging right commenting back is as fast as my fingers type. And at one point I just grabbed my phone and I threw it at the windshield. Because we're driving and my husband was like don't go on there anymore. Don't read that stuff.

AMT: That's the voice of Jade Tootoosis in a scene from the new documentary nipawistamasowin, we will stand up. It tells the story of Colten Boushie the 22 year old Indigenous man who was shot and killed by a Saskatchewan farmer in 2016. The story of course was major national news. Colten Boushie and four others from the Cree Red Pheasant First Nation drove on to Gerald Stanley's rural property in an SUV. There was an altercation and Gerald Stanley was charged with second degree murder in Mr. Boushie's death when he was acquitted last year by a jury with no apparent Indigenous members, the decision prompted a nationwide debate about racism in the Canadian legal system. This new film brings new context to that discussion. It offers an intimate portrait of the Boushie family setting their struggle against a backdrop of centuries of colonialism and violence. nipawistamasowin will screen tonight in Saskatoon at the start of a nationwide tour. And right now I'm joined by Tasha Hubbard the film's director as well as Jade Tootoosis, a member of the bushy family. They're both in Edmonton. Eleanore Sunchild one of the family's lawyer is in Saskatoon. Hello to you all and welcome.

TASHA HUBBARD: Yes hello.

JADE TOOTOOSIS: Thank you.

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: Good morning.

AMT: Tasha Hubbard I want to start with you. What brought you to the story of Colten Boushie?

TASHA HUBBARD: Well like so many people you know we just felt what happened so deeply and you know even though I didn't know him before, the circumstances around his death, how quickly things escalated that resulted in a gun being grabbed and shot off without, without care. You know it it just really shocked myself and everyone I knew. And it was all we were talking about. So I was going to write about it. I was thinking about it in terms of the historical context and I was thinking about exactly that how is this going to affect our future and it I just felt really deeply that it was going to change things. And I was encouraged by my dad's partner who's related to the family and she said you know you're going to write about it but you're a filmmaker, you should make a film, and just everything fell into place after that.

AMT: Jade Tootoosis, can you tell me about Colten? What was he like?

JADE TOOTOOSIS: My late brother Colten was, he was one of the younger ones in my generation and so being one of the younger ones he was always tagging along with a lot of us in the older category especially that of his brothers. And he always wanted to help. He always wanted to get involved and help out wherever the heavy lifting needed to be done and especially when he would say with our grandmother. He'd always help take care of her yard and make sure that she had clean drinking water and just making sure that things were good and that she was comfortable and well. And that was just the type of person that he was. He very much cared for his family and his community.

AMT: And did you call him your brother, he's what other people call a cousin but you call him your brother.

JADE TOOTOOSIS: Yeah we grew up together I know I remember exactly him being a little brown baby boy and we grew up together. In my family western kinship calls us cousins but [unintelligible] when your immediate cousins in a sense become your brothers and your sister. It's actually not too common that we call each other cousins especially when we're together.

AMT: Mm hmm. I have a clip of his mother from the film Debbie Baptiste remembering him as well. Let's listen to her.

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When she was a little boy. She was so smart. He had Harry Potter glasses. And he was really into science and then somebody was speaking about you know something and he would correct them and he would say, you know, he'd have his little Harry Potter glasses and could push them up and he'd say 'scientifically I don't think that's right'. And then he said - when he was a little guy like that too he said the world would get along if everybody just got a good book and go sit under a tree.

AMT: Tasha Hubbard when I saw that clip that was a part of Colten Bouchie I didn't hear about in the news coverage.

TASHA HUBBARD: Well you know I mean that's also part of the history of how Indigenous people have been represented in the media you know. And it's very rare that people are represented as fully human. And you know that has contributed to a lot of the issues we're facing today in how Indigenous people are treated. If people are able to think and have been given permission to think through media, through literature, through film that Indigenous people are less than human then you know it gives licence. And I think it's really important. In a way it's sad. It's sad that's sad that we have to humanize our people. But that's really what it comes down to.

AMT: Talk to me more Tasha about what you want audiences to understand about where Colten Boushie's story fits into the history of Saskatchewan in Canada.

TASHA HUBBARD: Well I think that you know there's a real mythology of how Canada chooses to see itself and when Indigenous people have been left out of being able to write the narrative been able to tell the story it seems like as though there's this benevolent history. But we understand very intimately how colonial violence has affected our ourselves our families and this didn't start in 2016. This started from contact on. It started from companies taking advantage. It's started from the death of the buffalo, the destruction the wilful, destruction of the buffalo and the spreading of disease and you know starvation policies and mobilising Canadian troops to fire cannons into women and children. This is the history and it's a history a lot of people don't want to look at.

AMT: Eleanor Sunchild When did you first become involved with the Boushie family's case?

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: I became involved the day after Colten was killed. His Uncle Alvin Baptiste phoned me upset about the press release that the RCMP had issued and at that point I told Alvin well you need to go public and I'll support you in any way that I can.

AMT: And why was it important for the family to have their own lawyer in this process?

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: It's important because a lot of Indigenous people not just this family don't understand the justice system in this family does have understanding of it. However the justice system and the systems of colonisation have not been favourable to Indigenous people. The justice system has been used in the past to take the land away to take the children away during Indian Residential School, and the systems, the justice system included hasn't been used to the best interests of Indigenous people and that continues today.

JADE TOOTOOSIS: Can I add to that?

AMT: Sure.

JADE TOOTOOSIS: I would also say that I know it was important to me to have legal representation assist us with this because the Canadian legal system has its own type of language. It has its own structure. It has its own history and having people who have that knowledge base and understanding to assist us to guide us and also to advocate on our behalf was important.

AMT: And Jade we see you in the film going to the courthouse every day. There's a row of cameras and reporters outside. What was it like for you to be at the centre of that daily?

JADE TOOTOOSIS: It's overwhelming everyday walking into that courtroom not knowing exactly what was going to happen what we were going to see what we were going to hear. And just as you approached the courthouse the big red brick building that seemed so cold unfriendly and unwelcoming and there's a group of people with you know cameras that wanted- want to almost crowd you and you're just trying to find the strength and the courage to be able to walk into that building. But knowing you know before I would go in every morning I would smudge. I would give thanks to the creator for blessing us with another day to be with family and friends and prayers that things go well and that our brother, my brother, is with us as we sit in there as well as our ancestors. And I would go in and I would see my family. My family would be in the courthouse waiting and we would sit together as well as numerous community members that came out and sat with us who took part and witnessed wanted to witness exactly what was happening in that courtroom and for that I'm so appreciative of them coming in and just witnessing.

AMT: Eleanore Sunchild, remind us of the details of Gerald Stanley's defence.

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: His defence was based on a misfire that he had placed bullets in the gun and didn't realize there was one left in the gun. He stated that he walked over to the SUV that Colten was in and he reached in with his left hand to turn off the ignition at that point the gun just went off and the bullet struck Colten in the back of the head killing him.

AMT: When did you begin to think that the verdict would not go the way the family was hoping Eleanore?

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: I'd like to say I had hope during the trial but I didn't. To be honest from the very first court appearance in provincial court when there was overwhelming police presence. Seeing how the police were ignoring the family at that point to hearing how the RCMP mishandled the investigation, I really wasn't hopeful right from the beginning.

AMT: Tasha Hubbard when the verdict was read out not guilty what was the reaction in the courtroom?

TASHA HUBBARD: I think there was this moment of everyone was stunned. And you know there's the cliché that time stand still and then when it the truth sunk in I think there were two things happening. The family in deep grief and outrage but also the way the court responded by grabbing Gerald Stanley and running just as like at the top speed, running out of the back of the courthouse. And I had actually sat behind them because there were so many of Colten's family sitting with them that I didn't want to take up space for them to be together. So I had that view of watching that happen and watching the jury - also in fear - jump up and run out and it was like it's felt so unreal. Like I don't think I've ever experienced anything like it in my life. And just for me feeling really helpless. It still feels unreal.

AMT: Jade hat verdict seemed to galvanize something in you. You travelled to Ottawa. You went to the U.N. What you want people to understand about what your family went through?

JADE TOOTOOSIS: I want people to understand that the Canadian legal system continues to oppress indigenous peoples and Indigenous families. And when policies and structures are in place and continue to deliver a message that Indigenous people are less than and not deserving of fairness and justice, this also contributes to their attitudes and perceptions amongst society. It's been ongoing and it needs to change. It needs to change for my nephews in the film. It needs to change for all my nieces across Turtle Island and is a change for coming generations that our youth understand that they are loved that they are important and they are worthy especially and that of their own homelands and territories.

AMT: Jade do you feel that your concerns were heard when you went to Ottawa? You spoke with the Prime Minister. You spoke with some ministers Carolyn Bennett and Jane Philpott who was then a minister.

JADE TOOTOOSIS: No. I'm going to be honest. No. We did go to Ottawa right after the verdict and those were the initial meetings where my family and I finally got to vocalize and share our experiences. So at the initial meetings where us speaking and telling our story and our experiences the next step is you know what are we going to do about it. And then as of this moment my family and I are still waiting for a follow up from each of the ministers we have met. So at this time I don't feel like we've been heard.

AMT: What do you need to hear from them, Jade?

JADE TOOTOOSIS: I would like to hear some action. I would like to hear that they are going to be inviting a special rapporteur from the United Nations to conduct their investigation. I would like to hear their proposals to support more Indigenous families that end up going through the systems. I'd like to hear exactly what they're going to do about addressing the systemic racism as well as the the racism within society the perceptions and the hatred that is spewed online like I would like to hear exactly what they plan to do and how they plan to work with indigenous peoples and Indigenous families.

AMT: Eleanore as you've accompanied Jade and watched her in those meetings what impresses you most about her as an advocate?

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: It's her ability to to speak from the heart. She remembers a love that she has for her brother, the love she has for her family and for her people. That's what makes her so powerful.

AMT: Tasha I want to ask you a little bit about the backlash. There a meeting with the RCMP with farmers in Saskatchewan. It's community meeting. It's about rural crime and someone gets up and and says probably 80 percent of us would do exactly what Gerald Stanley did. What did you think when you heard that? Give me some context for that.

TASHA HUBBARD: Well both Eleanore and I decided to attend that meeting. And what struck me first of all was actually the property crime rate is quite low according to the RCMP statistics. And the other thing that struck me was the way that the RCMP conducted it where they spoke about their role in protecting ratepayers and that word ratepayers kept getting repeated. And I'm like what does that mean? And then I'm like does that mean he's speaking about tax payers? And then is that sort of inherently because of the you know the myths around Indigenous people and taxes? Is that sort of a we're here for you? And you know and having gone to the RCMP museum and seeing that that was their policy was to shift to protect settlers. You know, yes, you know there was a lot of there was hostility in that room. You know there were those sort of comments that were ugly. There were 10 of us, 10 Indigenous people in a room of 250 people where those sorts of things are being said and you know that is sort of this shift that we're seeing where people are believing that their property is worth more than life. And again it's one of those moments where you're like oh how can this be? But then you think well that's the basis of the Canadian legal system is property right. British law, the protection of property. So people are just being much more explicit about it. But there's a lot mixed into those sentiments around who has value. You know so it was hard to be in there and it. And at the same time at the end of the meeting actually Eleanore had said to me we need to meet at least one person who we didn't know before. And I turned around and I introduced myself to these two farmers who were brothers. You could tell they felt bad. First of all they're like just so you know like most of the crime or all of the crime in our area is committed by white people and I'm like we know, we know that. You know they were just there were people - not everyone in that room. Don't get me wrong - but maybe 20 percent of that room like came over to us tried to engage with us. There were some women in the crowd who when men would start to talk over Indigenous people would tell them sit down, you know, stop talking, listen.

AMT: It really speaks to the need for discussion and how if people start talking...

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: Can I add something?

AMT: Go ahead.

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: When we were at that meeting when we confronted people on their racism they really changed their position. I was sitting with a group of farmers and they were talking terribly. They're like oh yes we we'd shoot them just let them come into my yard blah blah blah. And so I confronted them I said hey look I'm sitting back here with you know I can hear you. Why are you talking like that? And they didn't say anything. I said you know I have a son too. If he went into your yard when he got his driver's licence would you shoot first and ask questions later. And they're like no no we would help him. We would do whatever we needed. And I said well then stop talking like that because you're just making the problem worse. And after that they were quiet. But it's those conversation those tough conversations that people have to have. And if it makes you uncomfortable, it makes you uncomfortable. That's not my problem.

AMT: What do you hope comes out of this film, Jade?

JADE TOOTOOSIS: What I hope comes out of this film is that people remember my brother the way that we knew my brother. The amazingly kind and giving individual that he was and that will happen to my family should not have happened. He should not have been taken. He should not have- He should be here today. But ultimately too, my family should not have to work so hard to try to get justice and fairness. We should not have had to have went through this process and as you watch the film you learn that the oppression, the intimidation and the neglect of the Canadian legal system that we went through. And it's even more disheartening to hear that other families, Indigenous families, are experiencing the exact same thing as we speak. Something has to change. You know enough is enough. I want a home where my nieces and my nephews can feel well to play outside, to take a bike ride, to go swimming, to feel comfortable, to feel accepted, but most of all to feel safe.

AMT: Tasha this film is now on a nationwide tour. What are you hoping comes from the watching of this film?

TASHA HUBBARD: I think there have been a lot of indigenous people you know from over a century ago to now who have been advocating for exactly what Jade has expressed and I hope the film contributes to supporting that shift supporting that movement towards that. I hope that it sparks those difficult conversations. They are hard to have. You know so there's all these different lake levels and layers where these changes can happen and, yes, on an individual level it needs to happen and then it needs to also move into the institutional and systemic levels you know. And Canada has to take a really hard look and people who work in that system who uphold that system either need to make some changes or or leave or just leave so they can take up that space who are willing to do this difficult work.

AMT: Thank you for talking to me today all three of you. thank you.

TASHA HUBBARD: Thank you.

JADE TOOTOOSIS: Thank you.

ELEANORE SUNCHILD: Thank you.

AMT: Tasha Hubbard is the director of nipawistamasowin, we will stand up. Jade Tootoosis is a member of the Boushie family. They were both in Edmonton. Eleanore Sunchild is one of the Boushie family's lawyers. She joined us from Saskatoon. nipawistamasowin, we will stand up is on a nationwide tour screening in cities across Canada starting in Saskatoon tonight. Coming up: China says it is sending Uighur people into training institutions in Xinjiang province. In our next half hour Globe and Mail Asia correspondent Nathan Vanderklippe shares some of his reporting on what is actually taking place. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One, Sirius XM, online on cbc.ca/thecurrent, on podcast and on your radio app.

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'They followed me everywhere': Reporter tailed, deterred while investigating Uighur detention in Xinjiang

Guest: Nathan Vanderklippe

AMT: Hello I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

I'm frustrated that I'm not being able to help them and also I'm frustrated that the whole world is not being able to do anything. I'm scared that I could never be able to see them again.

AMT: That's the voice of Uighur-Canadian Zaimira Dilimulati who says her brother, father, sister, brother in law and sister in law have all been detained in Xinjiang province in northwest China. She is one of many members of her Muslim community around the world looking for answers as to why their relatives are being held in so-called training institutions. What critics call re-education camps by the Chinese government in that province and asking about the conditions in which they're being held. Her sister has been released. Her brother was also let out after six months he was then detained again two months later.

SOUNDCLIP

I hadn't been speaking to my father, brother or sister since they have been detained so I have no idea why they were taken in and how their conditions were in there. I haven't been able to talk to my mom about this because they might be listening to phones. She was the only one left outside of the camp with five grandchildren and she had to be there for the grandchildren. She couldn't take a risk.

AMT: International estimates put the number of weaker is detained at least a million people. This is happening at a time when China is flexing its muscles globally on issues of trade and broader influence, moves that appear to have caught up to two Canadians who of course we know have been arrested and accused of spying. Nathan Vanderklippe is the Globe and Mail's Beijing based reporter. He's been covering the story since 2017 speaking to those who have been held in the camps travelling to Xinjiang province. Nathan Vanderklippe is with me in our Toronto studio. Hi, welcome.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Good morning.

AMT: When you listen to that clip of Zaimira Dilimulati melody how do you react?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: I think what I have found striking in reporting on this story over a couple of years is the extraordinary similarity of many of the stories that you hear. One of the difficulties as a journalist in approaching this young story has been the difficulty in verifying the accounts of people who claim that loved ones have been taken away, who claim that loved ones have cut off contact. And part of the difficulty is that currently to travel to Xinjiang as a journalist is very very difficult. I mean from a logistics perspective it's actually quite easy you just board a plane and go there. There are parts of China like Tibet that journalist can't go to without prior approval. Xinjiang is not like that but from the perspective of actually working there it's very very difficult because there is an extraordinary security apparatus that's in place there and that considers foreign journalists as one of the groups of people who are of particular interest. So if you land there as a foreign journalist you are followed by large numbers of people. And this is true for just about any foreign journalists who lands in Xinjiang these days which makes it very difficult to independently interview people, because if you are to ask someone a question you run the risk that that person will then be questioned which is almost certain. If you speak to somebody in Xinjiang right now that person would almost certainly be questioned afterwards and you run the risk of that person could then be taken away. Because speaking with foreign media is often openly proscribed for people in Xinjiang and this sort of thing. So all of that makes it very difficult to really verify individual accounts which is something that the Chinese government has occasionally made use of when it has appeared that accounts from Uighurs and others have perhaps been exaggerated and it has allowed the Chinese government to respond very forcefully in some occasions. But when it when I hear that story I'm struck by the degree to which it is reflected by other Uighurs in Canada, by ethnic Kazakhs in Almaty, by Uighurs in Turkey, by Uighurs I've spoken with in different parts of Europe, in Australia and elsewhere. And they the extraordinary similarity of their accounts I think adds a lot of weight to their truthfulness.

AMT: And I want to get to some of the measures you had to take to get close to that story. But first what are some of the government explanations that you have heard for why people are detained in these centres?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well it's been a changing story. If you were to have asked that question one or two years ago I would have had a different answer because the Chinese response was different. And it began with outright denial that these sorts of things don't exist. And then it then it shifted to sort of varying stages of acknowledgment. And the most recent sort of official word from the Chinese government is that there are vocational and employment training centres that have been built up around Xinjiang. That yes they are used to deliver some legal training and some linguistic training, as well as employment training. All of that they say is to enable people in this part of China, a, to sort of be steered away from extremism and, b, to gain useful skills, useful employment and useful linguistic skills for operating in China. There's also been references more recently to some of these centres comparisons to them as boarding schools, effectively places boarding schools without tuition, free places where people can receive free education.

AMT: It's interesting and we did get a statement from the Chinese embassy regarding these centres or institutions. And I'm going to read the quote to you. Here it is: The vocational and educational training institutions there were set up as a preventive measure to combat terrorism. Relevant measures were taken entirely according to law which are endorsed and supported by people of all ethnic groups and have produced positive social effects. The number of people in the vocational and educational training institutions is dynamic, changing every day. Some people come in and some go out. In general the number will become less and less”. End Quote. Now there's a reference to terrorism there too. What do you make of that statement?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: There is, and that's been this this notion of sort of extremism, radicalization, the fear of terrorism. And in fact the actual occurrence of terrorist events that were - according to the Chinese state - committed by Uighurs, by people from Xinjiang, all lies in the background of this campaign. I think the Western critics would ask if in fact this is an anti-radicalization campaign, is it reasonable to think that quite a substantial percentage of Uighurs living in China are in fact radical. I mean if you're talking about a million, some estimates are now perhaps as much as a million and a half, even higher numbers have been put out by officials in the U.S. Is it reasonable to assume that many people have in fact sort of embraced radical thought?

AMT: The numbers are staggering. So anywhere from one and a half to three million people if you look at the U.S. figures, all in these centres. So tell me a little bit more of what you've heard from former detainees about specific details of life in those facilities.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: And life in Xinjiang itself. I mean I think one must also keep in mind that that life outside the facilities is also changed to a great degree. I mean there's been the construction of these convenience police stations so that there's now police every two hundred meters. The police are equipped with specialized devices that scan people's phones for material that's considered sort of radical which can be just basic sort of cultural and religious material. Inside the camps - and the process by the way of people going inside the camps seems to be very extrajudicial. We don't have much evidence of people for example going first to trial and then being sent to camp. It seems that people are sent directly to camp. And so inside the camps it's in some ways a difficult question to ask because of the complexity of the camps and the complexity of what appears to be a network of very different types of facilities, some of which offer something that is perhaps a bit more akin to a forced boarding school with better conditions. Some of which have been described by former detainees as places where they felt like slaves. I spoke with a woman who described for example that the fact that they had to watch each other for instances of religious observance and there was one instance where they had a buddy system of going to the washroom. So two women went to the washroom one had to watch the other. And the one woman when she went to the washing was an elderly woman. She accidentally urinated on her foot. And so what did she do, she washed it off. They came out and the guards took that as evidence of ablution and punished them quite severely for this because it looked to them like religious washing. The Chinese government is actually since acknowledged that all religious practices proscribed inside the camps on the grounds that in China education and religion are separate. But of course this is not voluntary education. This is force. This is forced internment. And so we know that there are regular classes and that those classes can involve sort of forced learning of Chinese on what can be quite a rigorous schedule and can be quite difficult particularly for elderly people. You can imagine sort of your sort of elderly people in your family being forced to learn Chinese you know that could be very difficult in an advanced age.

AMT: What language are they speaking normally?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Many they speak Uighur, depending on where they are. I mean it's China of course and so many will also speak some Chinese but depending on where you are in Xinjiang. There have been parts of Xinjiang where people's Chinese skills, Mandarin Chinese skills, are quite weak. And I think that sort of plays into one of the Chinese government objectives in these camps which is to create a sort of degree of linguistic competence and sort of you can argue back and forth what the motivation what the result of doing something like that is. But that's one of the facts on the ground. So there are those camps but there are all sorts of accounts of people for example being fed too little food of emerging from the camps having lost significant amounts of weight, of saying that they have been for example been tased, hit with a stun gun to the head. One woman I spoke with said the guards said we do this to the head because it's not visible as a skin Mark beneath your hair. So there's accounts of people dying in the camps. It does not- it appears to be related perhaps to poor conditions. I spoke with one young man in Xinjiang who said his grandfather who was in his 80s was sent to the camps. According to this young man, it was because his grandfather had learned how to read the Quran 40 years prior and was sent to the camps as a result and died 15 years later. He was an advanced age but if you die within 15 days of going in what does that mean.

AMT: What did they tell you about how they got picked up and put in there? Like what actually- are they picked up off the street? What happens?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: So I've heard varying accounts on that and I think there are all sorts of reasons for that. There are accounts from people who say it was related to something that they may have said in the workplace. There are accounts of people who say for example ethnic Kazakhs who entered China and research one of whom they found a prayer mat on in his belongings, and they said this is evidence that you pray and sent him to camp. People have been sent in because they have for example WhatsApp, the chat software which is an encrypted software, an encrypted chat app on their phones and have been sent to camp for that. For people from Kazakhstan who perhaps bought their phones in Kazakhstan, this has been a particularly grievous because many of their phones come pre-installed with WhatsApp. There is a sense among particularly Muslims that the mere act of attending mosque can be grounds for a judgment that they are practicing extremism and that they will be sent to camps for that. I was told by someone quite recently that it only takes one person to send you to camp but it can take a dozen to get you out. So it seems very easy to get into the camps. But in terms of getting sort of the bureaucratic sign offs to get out that part seems to be much much more difficult.

AMT: You were the first western journalist to report inside that region. Tell me a little bit about how you got in there because you said that these are the surveillance of these checkpoints. You drove?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Yes I've gone there a few times that I think what you're referring to is 2017. I mean like I said it's open. Journalist can go in there and journalists have been going in there for many many years. I wrote a story that spoke about the re-education system back in 2017, back when very little about this had been written. Some of it had been written in a report on by Radio Free Asia and others but not a lot in sort of other elements of the Western press when I went there. And so on my most recent trip I rented a car, actually did this on my last two trips, because of - and I think every Western journalist who goes that Xinjiang right now is probably more concerned about the people we associate with than ourselves.

AMT: Because then they have a target.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Right. And you know I have a foreign passport. I have an ability to leave China. People who live in Xinjiang don't possess that. And so to sort of eliminate that risk what I've tried to do is I've tried to rent cars. I have Chinese driver's licence and I can drive on my own. And that means that I don't need to hire a driver. And that means I don't need to hire an interpreter and I can just go around and sort of work on my own. And I've done that in order to try to sort of at least reduce that risk to other people.

AMT: And in driving in you've been followed a couple of times. How curious did it get at times? How dangerous?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: I mean I think the most dangerous was when they followed me very closely close enough that at one point I thought they were going to literally run into me. One thinks sometimes of being followed in sort of a kind of like a Hollywood spy versus spy kind of way where you know there's people crouched around corners in this sort of thing. And I did have a little bit- I mean there's one guy at one point took me a while to realize that the guy kept seeing in a leather jacket with the white iPod earbuds was in fact following me and that's the reason I kept seeing him. But oftentimes it was actually very very overt. And so I drove in from a neighbouring province as best I can calculate over about sixteen hundred kilometres I was either followed or sort of appeared to be electronically tracked by people. And I think it was in total nine cars 20 people over the course that they follow- I mean they followed me everywhere. They followed me driving out to the desert away from places when I would stop. They would get out and at one point I was walking just to get some fried dough for breakfast. There was a woman who went five yards behind me and I asked her are you following me? She said no. I'm like, Well, when I turn you turn. She's like well I have my freedom and you have yours.

AMT: Did you ever hand her some fried dough?

[Laughter]

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: No I didn't in fact. And then there were other times and then and then there were times where it got substantially more serious when I tried to approach one of the re education centres. I at one point had the people following me come sort of pass me and jam their car in front of me so I couldn't pass. I got out of my car. They ran out of their car ran in front of me and formed a human wall in front of me. And you know I said I was going to request an interview and that is that you're not allowed to request an interview here. And another point in time I approached a different one and I had I was surrounded by people. They reached into my car. They grabbed my camera they grabbed my phone away from me so I didn't have any of those things. They didn't let me go until I deleted pictures. At another point I was just sitting in my car just typing up some notes and this was this was late at night and all of a sudden the police car showed up. Three guys get out. The guy in the middle has his hand on a gun that's slung over his shoulder. The two on the sides of these large sort of rectangular thick metal steel antique shields. And they advance on me kind of slowly and warily. And they say open the car, open the windows, open the back windows, put your hands outside. It very much felt as if you know they thought that I was up to-- I don't know what they thought I was up to but it was a bit of a nerve wracking experience given the amount of sort of armaments and the way they were treating me. I mean I feel like I need to point out I mean this as I said I'm a journalist. I have the ability to leave.

AMT: No, and I appreciate what you say as making the point that that you are in far less danger than the people who live there and the people you're trying to report on. And absolutely and I respect that that you prefer to concentrate on that but that has to be intimidating. That they clearly want you to think that you're in danger and you should get out of there and not report. I mean you've got to really steel yourself to do that kind of stuff.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: You do. I mean I should say that what I'm describing is not at all unique. Just about every Western journalist that I've spoken with has experienced this. I was accused of fleeing the scene of an accident at one point in this I don't know sorry we got one number wrong on your car plate. You're fine. They I was told that I couldn't go down another road to one of the larger re-education centres they said because it was under construction and I was sitting in a police station watching sort of traffic just go by was obviously not true. Other journalists have described not being able to go down entire freeways because they were told it was hot outside and the asphalt was too soft. The New York Times documented an encounter last fall in which they had what appeared to be a staged traffic accident in front of them that blocked the road. So there's all sorts of all sorts of different ways that are being used to sort of frustrate movement. And then there's certain areas that are just say, foreigners can't go here.

AMT: How long have you been based there now?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: I moved there in 2013 so just over five years.

AMT: Mm hmm. And you speak the language?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Enough to sort of work.

AMT: And to be able to move around alone and not endanger others as you say when you're trying to do this kind of work.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: I hope.

AMT: There are of course two Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovtrig who have been detained in China since December accused of spying. Canada has a delegation in China pushing for Mr. Spavor and Mr. Kovrig's release. What is what is Canada need to do to convince the Chinese government to release them? What's the chatter or is there chatter?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well I mean I think the very clear message from the Chinese side has been released Meng Wanzhou, release the Huawei executive who was arrested in Vancouver. I think that has been the clear message from the Chinese side.

AMT: And given the kind of work you do, do you worry about your own safety and that in relation to that kind of thing?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: You know so I'm a sort of a properly accredited journalist in China and I've always thought that historically China has respected those accreditations. And I've always expected that to be true. But I have been struck I must say in the last few months by the number of Canadians I have met in China who have either, a, expressed concern or, b, in fact have taken a long hiatus from China. People who have built their working careers on China but have spent months outside the country and I think that has reflected a degree of fear about personal safety for Canadians in China that we just aren't accustomed to I think as as Canadians. I mean the Chinese government has said no we protect the lawful rights and interests of Canadians and this sort of thing. But there's clearly been a new degree of sort of risk perceived by Canadians who've been living in China.

AMT: And all of this is happening at a time when China is looking to expand global influence. It's got the project like the belt and Road Initiative. How do all of these elements fit together?

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Well I mean I think what you're what you're what you're also seeing is that you are seeing a reconsideration by some important parts of the world on what China is as a country, what China's ambitions are as a country. And I always feel like I should sort of separate out sort of government ambitions here from people's ambitions which can be quite different. But how you know what sort of the government in China represents, what the Chinese leadership wants to accomplish as far as influence outside of its borders and this sort of thing. And that it's very clear that there's a reconsideration of that that's happening in the United States. It also seems clear to me that what's happening the United States is not a Trump White House initiative but that in fact there is bipartisan support in the U.S. for a reconsideration of China. In the European Union as well, the posture towards China is changing. You're starting to see a very clear move away from the rhetoric of sort of China as a cooperative partner to China as a competitor. And China's a competitor not just in technological terms as we're seeing in for example the debate over Huawei but also China as a competitor in systemic terms. And the meaning of that is this idea that China can be seen as a competitor to elements of sort of the political, the international liberal order. And of course China has argued that in fact you know China's a very very strong supporter of for example international trading regimes and this sort of thing. But there is a concern that what China both represents and what China is building in places like Xinjiang. If you look at sort of the architecture of authoritarian control, digital authoritarianism that is being built in Xinjiang where you have you know things like computer vision enabled cameras, highly networked systems that sort of monitor different aspects of life and then you sort of computerized algorithms as a way of sort of dispatching police to do investigations and this sort of thing. If you look at all of that there is an architecture of surveillance and control that is being built in both hardware and software terms in China and there is concern about the degree to which that is exportable and we're already seeing that in other places as well.

AMT: It's interesting in the Globe today one of your colleagues or two of your colleagues are writing on the Senate U.S. Senator Mark Warner is saying that Western countries including Canada have to speak up more forcefully on what's going on in Xinjiang with the weaker population. Canada has not said a lot.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Yes I mean Canada has- I know it has been raised and I know that there has been an argument from the Canadian side. There's been an interesting argument from the Canadian side which is to say that China may want to examine Canada's experience with residential schools and that you know Canada has its own black history of finding ways to sort of impose education and impose culture upon a group of people. And it has not worked well and trying to use that as a way to find common ground with China and also to raise warnings about what's happened. I know that that's been one of the elements of rhetoric there. There's also been sort of Canada's spoken out at the United Nations in other forums. But at this point Canada seems to have been reticent to do things like use sort of Magnitsky Act legislation to sort of pursue individuals and perhaps companies who have been active in Xinjiang. And so I think there has been a call from also the Uighur community in Canada for Canada's to be more allowed on this. I think the Canadian leadership is probably trying to weigh that off with concerns about Canada's already mired in economic and trade difficulties with China and what does it mean to speak out loudly on those sorts of things.

AMT: Well we're out of time we have to leave it there. But Nathan Vanderklippe thanks for coming in. Thanks for your work.

NATHAN VANDERKLIPPE: Thanks for having me.

AMT: Nathan Vanderklippe Beijing based reporter for The Globe and Mail in our Toronto studio. That's our program for today stay with Radio 1 for Q I want to leave you with something else earlier we were discussing the new documentary film on the death of Colten Boushie on a Saskatchewan farm in 2016. Later today the Prime Minister will be in Saskatchewan to announce an apology and the exoneration of an Indigenous chief. Chief Pound Maker was wrongly convicted of treason felony in 1885. During the Battle of Cut Knife chief Pound Maker stopped his warriors from chasing retreating Canadian forces preventing the deaths of hundreds of troops. Rather than being celebrated, he was accused of provoking the fight and he was sentenced to prison. Earlier this week Jennifer Cornell of CBC Saskatoon Morning spoke with Pound Maker Cree Nation headman Milton Tootoosis about what the imprisonment of chief power maker meant to the community then and how today's exoneration came about. We're going to leave you with that. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thank you for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Well I think the people would have felt a great loss because he was a good leader, he was indeed a diplomat. He was a very very respectful individual. He was a great visionary leader. I think it would have been devastating to lose someone like him. As a result of his incarceration a lot of people who know Pound Maker Cree Nation is not nation went without a chief war leader for up until 1919. So that's about 30 years I think. So again it was I think it would have been devastating for the local followers his band and particularly the shock and the trauma they would have experienced. Well first I didn't believe it could happen but we thought why not with all the talk in Ottawa about the PRC calls to action, the commitment to reconciliation, to truth. We thought we'd give it another try. So I was encouraged to pursue this and get support from our chief and counsel from our elders to give another kick at the can so to speak because the attempts have been made in the past. We were denied and here we are. And it was surreal when our chief got the call from the Honourable Carolyn Bennett Minister of Indigenous services in January of 2018 and it was like wow.

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