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The AIH Transcript for May 16, 2019

Hosts: Gillian Findlay and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello I'm Gillian Findlay, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

GF: Orange is the old Black. It's been years since he was released from prison, and now Conrad Black's record is clean after his friend President Donald Trump grants him a full pardon.

JD: Burned out. When a shrimp plant burns to the ground in northern Newfoundland, the town of Black Duck Cove faces a major clean-up and a future without one of its key employers.

GF: A beyond questionable questioning. An RCMP officer conducted a shocking, brutally insensitive interrogation of an Indigenous teenager reporting her sexual assault -- now she's filed a lawsuit.

JD: Caught before the act. A Tennessee sheriff tells us about his deputies' bizarre encounter with James Jordan -- weeks before Mr. Jordan allegedly murdered a man and assaulted a woman on the Appalachian Trail.

GF: The cut off point. A Nebraska farmer tells his nightmarish story of survival, after his leg got caught in an auger and he realized the only way he'd make it out alive was to sever it with his pocket knife.

JD: And hurray for Polly woods. A new study finds dozens of species of parrots are thriving all over the United States because people keep releasing their mouthy pets into the wild. As It Happens. The Thursday Edition. Radio that knows it's especially kids who wind up blaming their parrots.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: 'I'm lucky,' says farmer who cut off his own trapped leg with a pocket knife

Conrad Black pardon

Guest: Steven Skurka

JD: Conrad Black has been pardoned. As you have likely heard on the news -- U.S. President Donald Trump granted the pardon to the Canadian born former media baron, Mr. Black, who served three and a half years in a Florida prison for fraud and obstruction. Conrad Black immediately claimed complete vindication in a piece in The National Post. But some people are drawing attention to other items written by Mr. Black -- heaping praise on President Trump. Here he is speaking to Bloomberg News last year after he published a biography of the president.

SOUNDCLIP

CONRAD BLACK: I've known him for 20 years. The first thing is -- this business of disparaging him as an idiot and a boob and everything, there is no question he is a garish man at times -- although he's very elegant at times and personally he's very charming and agreeable. But clearly he does sometimes do things that keep us all pause. But we should remember this -- prior to becoming president he actually accomplished more in his life, prior to that, than any previous holder of that office except Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Grant, or Eisenhower. I mean he made billions of dollars, he made a spectacular comeback from de facto bankruptcy, he went cold turkey on the television and was a huge star and held his position with nearly 30 million viewers for 15 years only two nights and all that time we've seen how the leader in this slot and that was American Idol twice. He is extremely successful. Second thing he is one of these people who deliberately appears to be outrageous in order to facilitate the underestimation of him and the overreaction of others so that he can succeed more easily.

JD: Conrad Black speaking to Bloomberg News last year. Steven Skurka is a defense lawyer who wrote a book about Conrad Black's trial. We reached Mr. Skurka in Toronto.

GF: Mr. Skurka you predicted years ago that Conrad Black would push for a pardon. Did you think he'd get it?

STEVEN SKURKA: I was very confident he'd get it. The stars aligned for Conrad Black when Donald Trump became president of United States. And I say that for three reasons. Firstly, Trump had been a witness at his trial -- he never testified but he was prepared to be a defense witness. Clearly believed he was innocent. Secondly, this is a president that doesn't worry about the consequences of his action. You know there's a lot of criticism right now in America and I'm sure Trump is completely indifferent to it. And then finally, Trump is someone who values loyalty. You know in the earlier interview that Black gave to Bloomberg he described Trump is very elegant -- I've never heard that description before. So you take those three factors together and it suggests this was Conrad Black's lucky day and the only question is when would Trump pardon him.

GF: How does that process work? Like Conrad Black had to push for this -- how would he have done that?

SS: Well he didn't have to do it directly. Although that may have occurred. But clearly this was an active campaign -- all these books, these interviews, and you know all the reporting with these glowing views of Donald Trump -- that gets back to Donald Trump. And I'm not suggesting as any pejorative and I'm not suggesting Black was disingenuous, but every day of Conrad Black's life since the moment he was released from prison I believe he's been actively campaigning for the pardon. It's extremely important to him.

GF: Well you say that you're not sure that his praise is disingenuous -- if you look at his writings over the years I mean it almost sounds obsequious, doesn't it? Some of it. I mean he declares him the most effective U.S. president since Ronald Reagan. You know the biography itself -- "A President Like No Other." At some level do you believe this was part of a very strategic campaign?

SS: Sure. And he may have kicked it up a notch. But the point is these men are genuinely friends. You know Trump came to a shareholders meeting of Hollinger International spoke up on behalf of Conrad Black in 2003. There was nothing for Trump to gain to testify at Black's trial. Remember Black was a pariah in the international community at that time. His image has changed significantly since then -- but at that time Donald Trump was the star of "The Apprentice" and he was prepared to go into that Chicago courtroom so there has to be you know a great deal of friendship, collegiality, and share common views between the two men...

GF: But is friendship the price for a pardon?

SS: Well you know it for Donald Trump -- remember I go back to the fact of loyalty, he holds that right at the top. And I think the fact that Black's views have been immutable, supportive of Trump, held sway. I have no doubt that was a key factor in achieving this pardon.

GF: And yet, you think he deserved it.

SS: Yeah -- but none for the reasons that have been articulated -- this whole idea about this tremendous contribution to business, political, historical thought all these glowing recommendations. Well why should that put him at the front of the line? But the reason I believe he merited the pardon -- which really isn't being discussed at all -- is the fact that I always took the position as someone who covered the trial, sat through the trial, wrote a book about the trial, and looked at it through the lens of a lawyer -- that the verdict was unjust. I predicted he would be acquitted at the outset of the trial and largely with just a remnant of the case remained and that was largely vindicated. And so my view is that he is an innocent man. He was unjustly convicted of those two discrete counts that left at the end and therefore was deserving of a pardon.

GF: But nevertheless was convicted, spent three and a half years in a Florida prison -- why should he deserve a pardon?

SS: Well just because my view is and people are free to disagree with me. But it's a robust view and it's based on my knowledge of the case that here you had a situation where firstly Black was charged with an 84 million dollar fraud reduced to a 16 million dollar fraud by the time the trial -- and at the end of the day after his appeals were exhausted, he was convicted in relation to one percent of that fraud: six hundred thousand. And here you had an audit committee of stellar individuals including internationally renowned economist, a former U.S. attorney, and a nuclear arms negotiator supervising these non-competition payments that were the subject of the alleged fraud and approving them. And you don't have approval and you don't have disclosure in a fraud case.

GF: I don't want to relegate this but I do want to point out that I think Mr. Black announced this to the country by himself yesterday when it came through. And in the column that he wrote and released last night he says that he asked President Trump if he could say publicly that the motivation for the pardon was an unjust verdict. Why would he want to be able to say that? What was the point?

SS: It's clear he wants to have that good housekeeping seal of approval for the fact that he's an innocent man and that it wasn't decided in all these extraneous factors that suggest that really this was nothing more than a friend helping a friend. So that's clear. That's clearly the reason that he wanted...

GF: But Donald Trump would have no basis on which to determine whether a verdict was just or unjust, would he?

SS: No he wouldn't. But he has lawyers -- and I imagine lawyers could advise him about that. As I understand there was a lawyer in the room when Black made the request. So certainly he could turn to sage legal advice to guide.

GF: Even if Mr. Black's praise for President Trump is sincere, how is that going to colour this pardon? I mean whatever the truth of it is -- the merits of it -- at the end of the day the perception of this is going to be that this was the quid pro quo for all that flattering praise right?

SS: Absolutely. And I've certainly read a number of the articles, columns, letters to the editor, online and that is almost universally the view out there and I say that both in England United States and Canada. You know so there's no doubt about that. And there's no doubt that would have been a predictable response. But I don't think anyone cares in the inner circle. I don't think Donald Trump cares. And I think largely Conrad Black doesn't care. He might prefer to be called innocent. But at the end of the day what matters to him is that he has a pardon now.

GF: And does that pardon rehabilitate him? He has gone from being a powerful businessman, named a British lord -- a staple in society circles and in several countries. Does this...

SS: I would say not one iota. The dial didn't move one iota because of that pardon -- it only mattered to Conrad Black. But I don't think he cares about it. I think the public perception is shaped about Black -- people are either for him or against him, and I don't think anything changed as a result of this pardon.

GF: So this is just about him and being able to say...

SS: Yes. Maybe be able to return to Palm Beach and be a neighbour of Donald Trump and Mar-a-lago. That's what this is about.

GF: Because he wasn't able to do that as long as the conviction stood.

SS: Right.

GF: Steven Skurka thanks so much for your time today.

SS: My pleasure Gillian.

JD: Steven Skurka is a lawyer and the author of, "Tilted: The Trial of Conrad Black." We reached Mr. Skurka in Toronto. We did request an interview with Mr. Black, we did not receive a reply. But coming up later on in the show we will have part of our 2013 interview with Mr. Black. And you can find the whole interview on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

RCMP teen interrogation

Guest: Michael Patterson

JD: They seem like the kind of interrogation tactics a police officer might use on a suspect. But the young woman being questioned was the alleged victim in the sexual assault. In a video released this week, a Mountie is interviewing an Indigenous teen in foster care. The video dates back to March 2012 but it was released publicly by APTN news. In this clip the RCMP officer is asking the teen whether she was aroused by the attack. And a warning: the content is disturbing.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: Were you at all turned on during this at all? Even a little bit?

VOICE 2: No.

VOICE 1: Physically you weren't at all responsive to his advances? Even maybe subconsciously?

VOICE 2: Maybe subconsciously. But no. I was really scared.

VOICE 1: Because you understand that when the guy tries to have sex with a female and the female is completely unwilling it's very difficult, right?

VOICE 2: Yeah it hurt a lot.

VOICE 1: It hurt a lot? At the beginning?

VOICE 2: Throughout the whole thing.

JD: That 2012 video was recently released as part of a civil lawsuit filed by the Indigenous teenager in that video, along with several other claimants against the Ministry of Children and Family Development in British Columbia. Michael Patterson is representing these claimants. We reached Mr. Patterson in Penticton.

GF: Mr. Patterson when you first heard that audiotape and saw that videotape what did you think?

MICHAEL PATTERSON: I'm a criminal defense lawyer and we're used to seeing and reading and watching graphic and disturbing things, but this was very shocking. Extremely shocking because I'm looking at this as a father, as a husband, and as a brother to you know my sisters and I'm just thinking that a complainant in that position you know how would she feel? Vulnerable, intimidated, very anxious, and being attacked, and disbelief from the start. And the officer is as if he never went to a training school, as if he never had any courses, as if he was never trained -- because how could you ask those questions? How could you allow yourself to form those words in your mouth and put them to a vulnerable teenager? This is absolutely disgusting.

GF: Well this is just a very small part of an interview that I understand went on for more than two hours. You have heard and seen the whole thing. What other kinds of questions was she asked?

MP: Well she was asked. Why didn't she not fight back? Did she not enjoy it? The entire video was about him trying to get her -- well the whole strategy of the questioning was to break down her resolve. Her resolve was, I didn't consent to anything, I didn't want this. And she made that clear. But he kept her there until she starts answering the way he wanted her to answer -- until she started parroting, repeating the answers that he wants. He managed to convince her that she's lying. He broke her down. This was a professional abusing a vulnerable young lady. And there's no question about that. That's exactly what he was doing.

GF: We are not identifying your client because she was just 17-years-old at the time. But can you tell us the story of how she came to be in that RCMP office that day in Kelowna?

MP: She reported to her foster parent that she was sexually assaulted. The foster parent contacted the RCMP. She went to the hospital to get checked out and for a rape kit to be done. The police had a brief conversation with her and they then brought her back to the RCMP detachment. And you could hear the officer start the interview or part of the interview where he says the reason why we bring you back here is because we don't believe you. And that's how it all started there. Now you should note that she had social workers there but they choose to abandon her. They choose to leave her all by herself. Now when people are in care, the social workers are literally their parents. The foster parent is her parent. And what parent will allow their child to go through such a traumatic experience like that as part of a punishment? Because that's exactly what they were doing -- they were punishing her because they thought that she was lying.

GF: So we have a young Indigenous child in care ward of the state and this is how she is treated. You talk to her obviously, what does she say about how she felt about all of this?

MP: She is totally traumatized by the entire thing -- resulting in self-harm. And she is just now receiving trauma counseling dealing with the sexual assault. So you know she has been experiencing enormous amounts of psychological and mental effects as a result of the assault and as a result of the way that she was treated by the social workers and of course by the RCMP officer as well.

GF: So this happened in 2012. It's come to public attention now because of this civil action that you mentioned. But just tell me what happened to the man she was accusing of having assaulted her? Were charges laid?

MP: Nothing happened to him. We don't even have a statement. You have to understand there was no meaningful investigation -- nothing happened to him. As a matter of fact, I can tell you what happened -- she basically had to write him a letter of apology.

GF: She had to write...

MP: Oh yeah. Her social worker instructed her to write him a letter of apology.

GF: And did she do that?

MP: Of course. She followed what the social worker said. They had total control over her.

GF: So what have the social workers -- and I guess in particular what have the RCMP said about the questioning that took place? Have they defended this particular officer?

MP: The RCMP's statement is out in public. They haven't said anything about that particular officer. They've commented about their training, they've stated that things have moved on, and that officers are better trained you know than they were in 2012, and that training is their number one priority and that will continue. Now professionally, the officers that we deal with on a day to day basis by and large they are professional. But that's a different matter. What we see here is evidence that there's an enormous amount of work to be done.

GF: So you say this is not your daily experience dealing with the police -- the RCMP as you say have put out a statement in response to this outlining the various training programs that they have implemented since 2012 to ensure that these kinds of interrogations don't take place, but how much of an aberration do you think this particular questioning was?

MP: Well let me put it a different way. This is the first video that we've seen of them. As a defense lawyer I request disclosures and information. And we have defended people who have been charged with sexual assault and we of course get the interviews of both our clients and the complainants. And we've never seen anything like this or close to this. If you're sorry about something you show remorse -- there's nothing in the RCMP statement that would suggest that they're remorseful about this. There's nothing in the statement that would say, well you know we understand how the young lady felt and we empathize with her, etc -- nothing of the sort. All they come out and say, well you know we are putting in training and our officers are trained. So we can't take any comfort in that.

GF: Mr. Patterson thank you so much for explaining this to us today.

MP: You're welcome.

JD: Michael Patterson is a lawyer representing several claimants in a civil lawsuit against British Columbia's Ministry of Children and Family Development. We reached Mr. Patterson in Penticton, British Columbia.

[Music]

Injured farmer

Guest: Kurt Kaser

JD: Kurt Kaser is lucky to be alive. He's also lucky in a way that he was carrying a pocket knife. The Nebraska grain and hog farmer is recovering after a farming accidentally last month left him without part of his leg. That would be the part that Mr. Kaser had to cut off himself. We reached Kurt Kaser in Pender, Nebraska. And a warning: some of the details in this interview are disturbing.

GF: Mr. Kaser can we start at the beginning, what were you doing before disaster struck?

KURT KASER: Well I was moving corn from one bend to another with a grain auger that has a swinging hopper on it. And this winter we had trouble getting it under a different bin and I had to cut part of the screen away that covers this auger to get it under the bin because the ground was froze.

GF: For those who don't know, just tell me what is an auger?

KK: Well it's a drill that you put up to a grain bin and you dump grain out of a truck of some kind -- any kind of truck -- and it takes it and kind of corkscrews it whatever into a bin.

GF: Okay so that's what you were doing, and somehow your leg ended up in that auger.

KK: Yeah. I had this hole cut and I probably forgot to cover that hole and I stepped in what I had cut out. From then on -- it just sucked me in there. And I looked at it and I go, this is not good. And I just kept pulling myself -- pulling and pulling. And I finally got down on my butt and was pulling on it and about gave up. I didn't know how long I was going to stay conscious. That's the first thing I asked myself, how much time do I have here?

GF: Yeah. So what was going through your mind at that time?

KK: Well the thing is running -- the tailgate was up, some corn was running in over my leg as I was stuck in it. And I could see the bones sticking out of the bottom of my -- it must have come off my ankle or the ankle fell off or whatever. Shoe was over in the auger bouncing around -- my foot -- no shoe, it had the shoe gone already but...

GF: You lost your foot first and you could see your foot bumping around in the auger?

KK: Yeah.

GF: Oh my goodness.

KK: I know a lot of people think I just basically took like a saw and sawed my leg off -- well I didn't. I mean I cut the skin and clothing and stuff that was left for me to get out of the machine that was running wide open and nobody around to shut it off.

GF: Did you have a phone? Did you have any way of contacting someone to say come help me?

KK: I don't know -- nobody could find my cell phone so I don't know where it was. I remember looking -- seeing if I had it in my pocket. I know a lot of times I don't carry it. Like I said I'm sitting in there and it's jerking on then. I thought well if I pass out or something -- I'm going to relax and it's going to grab me and pull me in further so that's when I reached down and got my pocket knife out and I started cutting it. There was clothing and skin. I mean, I the reason I know I was cutting -- it wasn't just clothing -- because I hit nerves and I could feel that stinging in my leg you know.

GF: Do you have any idea how long that took you?

KK: I've been asked this question -- I don't really know. My best estimation would be from the time it happened -- so the time I called the rescue squad -- it could have been 10 minutes.

GF: So you did eventually make it to a phone. Tell me what happened. I mean you cut your leg off, and then what did do?

KK: Once I got out, I went and started crawling. It was about 200 feet -- basically an army crawl with my elbows and dragging my knees. You know about 200 feet to a land line phone you know. Well basically I called my son first instead of 911 because he is on the rescue squad and I figured if he answered that would be the fastest way to get him here. And he did answer. He comes flying out. He's got radios in his pickup and everything. He's been on the -- whatever you want to call it -- rescue unit or whatever for 16 years -- and he's 31 few days ago -- so he's had plenty of experience.

GF: I guess he never thought he'd be rescuing his own dad.

KK: Yeah. When he come, I was laying on the floor there in our office. Before he's seen it all -- I said, 'I really screwed up.' And he walked over to me -- I was kind of in the doorway and he looked and he said, 'you really screwed up dad.' [chuckles] I think he got a little excited then when he seen it but...

GF: You speak so calmly about it now. I can't imagine you were this calm at the time it was all happening.

KK: Well I don't know. I really was. I had to be to think that straight, you know.

GF: So eventually a helicopter comes and gets you to the hospital and into surgery. And I've seen the picture of you -- and I'm sure it'll be on our website. So indeed you have lost that leg. How's the rehabilitation going now?

KK: It's going really good. I was in the hospital for one week and then I moved to a rehab hospital. I was there for two weeks and then I come home now.

GF: So how is this going to change your life do you think?

KK: Well it'll change it for a while. You know this could be six or eight months to a year. But after that -- it'll get better before that. But if I get a prosthetic leg I'll be fine.

GF: You'll be back out there.

KK: Oh yeah. I'm lucky I have what they call a stub or whatever below my knee. You know it wasn't above. My whole knee works perfect with everything.

GF: So you were lucky.

KK: Yeah. You know you ask that question, 'why I seem so calm?' I know down the road that it is going to be a while but I'm going to be walking and I'll be fine. But when you're in rehab -- and I've got friends around here that are in wheelchairs and things like that -- that will never walk again -- I know I will. Look at the people in the army and stuff like that. This is just a scratch compared to what some people have gone through.

GF: Well it's a remarkable story and you sound like a remarkable man. Thank you so much for telling us about it today. And best of luck to you.

KK: Well thank so you much for letting me share my story.

JD: Kurt Kaser is a farmer from Pender, Nebraska. That's where we reached him. And you can see a photograph of Mr. Kaser and an auger on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Accused in Appalachian Trail murder had threatened hikers before, says sheriff

Newfoundland fish plant fire

Guest: Eva Applin

JD: There is nothing left of the Gulf Shrimp Plant in Black Duck Cove, Newfoundland, after a fire tore through the facility yesterday. It employed 65 workers from the area. And Black Duck Cove has been left to clean up the charred remains of the building. Eva Applin works at the plant. We reached her at home in Black Duck Cove, Newfoundland.

GF: Eva how are you doing today?

EVA APPLIN: Oh it's been a rough day.

GF: I bet it has. When did you first realize that the fish plant was on fire?

EA: Well I wasn't working at the time yesterday evening. I had just come off the day shift. I got home around 20 after 6:00. And I wasn't at home -- I was just having supper when one of my co-workers had called me saying that the plant was on fire. So me thinking only a small fire, I jumped into my old cloths and took off back. But when I got halfway up the road I saw the devastation.

GF: And what did you see?

EA: It was just smoke billowing. And by the time I got to Black Duck Cove -- I only live a few minutes down the road -- when I got into the intersection of Black Duck Cove I met the workers. I knew everybody was out. And people were crying -- it was total devastation.

GF: How much of the plant was left at that point?

EA: It started from there and it was coming up through the roof. So I mean I knew with all the chemicals that it was only just going to be a matter of time because I mean that plant has been done over a few times like in order to accommodate -- we used to do cod at one then went into shrimp. And I knew about the amount of chemicals -- because I knew how fast the workers had to get out -- they saw smoke and whatever so it wasn't that long after that.

GF: You've worked there a long time.

EA: Well I've been back there for about 15 years. I started there in 89' -- and when the cod moratorium came on board I did leave the plant at a point. Then I went back in 2005.

GF: And how many people were working there?

EA: Well there was 65 employees and about 12 management. Now most of those management are from the surrounding area also so it employs over 70 people you know.

GF: And everybody got out safely.

EA: Oh yes everybody. The man next door -- one of the residents next door -- saw smoke coming from the roof and he ran to the plant and banged on the door for the workers. But by that time, inside they were realizing too and everybody was -- I mean it was really good orderly they say with all that safety that we have done. We were commended today by the company and everybody kept their head straight and came out safely and yeah nobody panicked too bad so that was a good thing. Everybody got out safe which was the main thing. No injuries. No loss of life.

GF: And how long did it take for the plant to basically burn down?

EA: I'm saying within -- well I won't say an hour. I really don't know the time frame right now because like I said I was out on the street -- no watch, no phone, no nothing so.

GF: And you stood there and watched it, did you?

EA: Yeah. And after a while we had to move back to the main highway away because the propane tanks started bursting. And it was going feet in the air. Actually one of the homes was damaged. But everybody had to evacuate -- all the homes in Black Duck Cove. And they weren't allowed back until today. And right now they're still waiting. There was still an ammonia tank I think there in the building that they were trying to you know make sure it's safe for anybody to be around there so.

GF: So as you stood there watching, what was going through your mind?

EA: Well like [chokes up] I said with the down turn in shrimp fishery, we've always ever heard like you know other plants are closing out. And we used to always say my God if our plant happened to burn like the other ones we'll never get it back. So this is the fear in people today. We had a meeting today and we were offered -- you know for the workers to go to Old Perlican and whatever which is a great offer. But right now our long term goal is hopefully going to say they are going to put our plant back. But I know like where they are as a company right now they have got to wait for assistance to be done and see if they're going to move forward like you know to put the plant back which we're hoping and praying that's what's going to happen. So it's going to take time for the company to come to terms with like what they're going to do. But also they have got to realize that we as workers got to have time to come to terms with what we're going to turn because they're offering us to say by Saturday that we can go to Old Perlican but I mean workers cannot come forward that fast and say that...

GF: And how far away is that for people to travel?

EA: Well you got workers here that have small kids, you got workers here that have elderly living with them -- and you know there's so much to taking to consideration.

GF: Has the company said anything about rebuilding?

EA: Not a thing. Not today. But like I said they have to do adjustments and they have to wait for assistance -- with insurance -- and this kind of thing, so we're giving them time also too. We're trying to stand firm and say that you know we do want our plant put back because you know what it's not only the workers at the plant -- this spins off on all the community. Quinlans like you know pays for our local arena to store their packaging that during the summer when the arena is lying idle. All that money then contributes right back to help the kids during the winter like you know to play hockey and play their sports, and the Home Hardware in there, and carpentry business. Everything we need at the plant is bought from all those stores, so like you know as a big spender.

GF: Yeah. So as you look forward what are you hoping for?

EA: Oh definitely hoping from our plant to come back. You know I know there's a down turn in the shrimp-fishery right now -- but I mean it was only the other day they were talking about industrial shrimp and everything you know -- so hopefully the company can come forward and make it work again for us like you know. It don't have to be a big big plant -- but you know it was a really big plant but we did do a lot of work there. That company -- last year we put through over 40-50,000 working hours at that plant. I mean that's a lot of work.

GF: Yeah it is.

EA: And like right now the uncertainty that people are really scared and they are paranoid and people got bills to pay and we don't know the dire straits that some people are really in and trying to keep the workers together as a unity so we can all you know try to stand ground and see can we get our plant back to where it needs to be.

GF: Eva our thoughts are with you and we will check back in with you to see what happens.

EA: Thank you.

JD: Eva Applin is an employee of the Gulf Shrimp Plant and Black Duck Cove, Newfoundland. That is where we reached her. Last night, that shrimp plant was destroyed in a fire.

[Music]

Rachel Giese

JD: Last year, Rachel Giese examined gender norms and masculinity in her book, "Boys: What It Means To Become a Man." Last night, Ms. Giese found out what it means to become a winner -- when she was awarded the Writers' Trust of Canada's Shaughnessy Cohen Prize for Political Writing. Which comes with the 25,000 dollar prize. And then this morning, Ms. Giese joined host Robyn Bresnahan on Ottawa Morning to talk about the win and why her book is political and why it is personal.

SOUNDCLIP

RACHEL GIESE: I think so many of our conversations that we're having right now whether it's income inequality, whether it's about gender based violence, the "me-too" movement, sexual harassment in our workplaces -- all of that is tied to gender norms and expectations. And what I wanted to understand in writing the book -- I mean I spent a lot of my career as a journalist thinking about gender equality through the lens of girls and women and so to think about what are the expectations that are placed on boys and men and then what does that mean when they are out in the world in terms of how they behave, how they legislate, how they treat girls and women. So I always felt like this subject was political because to me it felt like it was the undercurrent of so much of what is going on right now in the world. So it's not just that toxic masculinity hurts girls and women. It also hurts boys and men. And I think expanding -- I'm not saying we throw out these ideas of masculinity but I think we expand in the same way that we've expanded what it means to be a woman. I think we want to expand what it means to be a man -- and to say one, that there is strength in being vulnerable. There is strength in being kind. There's strength in stepping aside and saying I want to bring the voices of women into this conversation. There's real strength and power in that. And that's what I want men and boys to see.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Part of the reason that you wrote this book was because you're raising a son, and I'm wondering how you have changed your approach to parenting?

RACHEL GIESE: You know I think I became really conscious when our son was little about the messages like "boys don't cry" or if people saw him being really rambunctious they would say, "oh typical boy" or "boys are like that." And I think once I became conscious of that then I think I had a lot of empathy for boys and young men and I have met so many of them who are kind and tender and genuinely searching for new ways of being. And I think what I want to bring to my parenting is not to underestimate my son's capacity and his emotional intelligence.

ROBYN BRESNAHAN: Well and he would like to take some credit for your win last night apparently [laughter].

RACHEL GIESE: Yes. My wife texted him to tell him I won and he asked for a cut of the winnings because he felt he was out as the inspiration of the book. So I guess my agent has to talk to his agent to work it out.

JD: That was writer Rachel Giese speaking with Ottawa Morning host Robyn Bresnahan this morning. Last night, Ms. Giese took home the Writers' Trust of Canada's Shaughnessy Cohen Prize for Political Writing for her book, "Boys: What It Means To Become a Man.".

[Music]

Appalachian trail murder

Guest: Mike Hensley

JD: It is billed as a trail that's "great for beginners" -- a perfect place for a peaceful not too challenging walk in the woods. But last weekend, a woman from Nova Scotia and an American man were attacked by a man with a knife on a section of the Appalachian Trail in Virginia. The man was killed. The woman was stabbed multiple times but survived by playing dead. James Jordan has been charged with the murder and the assault. And it turns out that Mr. Jordan has become known on the trail for strange behaviour and alleged threats. Last month, he passed through another section of the trail in Tennessee where he was arrested but then released. Mike Hensley is the Sheriff of Unicoi County, Tennessee. We reached him in Erwin.

GF: Sheriff Hensley you've been in touch with the family of this young woman in Nova Scotia who survived the attack on Saturday. How is she doing?

MIKE HENSLEY: I've got a message from the young lady's parents and said she was with her husband and is expected to make a good recovery out of the injuries.

GF: And why were you in contact with the family? Why did you reach out?

MH: I have received a lot of calls from media across the whole United States concerning this because we did have a run in with Mr. Jordan back in April.

GF: This is James Louis Jordan that you're speaking about who has now been arrested at least and charged?

MH: That is correct. On April 21st of this year we started receiving calls that there was an individual on the Appalachian Trail threatening people with a machete. He had also chased some folks out of one of the shelters on the Appalachian Trail -- he chased them out with a shovel. Madison County North Carolina which is a neighbouring county to Unicoi County received a 911 call that there was an individual there waving machete and asking hikers when they were approached that opening if they knew the password -- telling them they had to have a password to come through that opening to get on their trial.

GF: And did you eventually meet him?

MH: No I did not, but my officers come in contact with him.

GF: And what did they tell you about him?

MH: Okay what happened was Madison County came to that location to check him at Devil's Fork and the hikers and him both had left. They just hiked across the ridge into my county. That's when they called us. The guy had followed them over there and started some problems, using profane language, and also threatening them -- waving the machete. He also made the statement that it would be a bad day for hikers on the trail. And when I heard that he had made this statement, I deployed deputies on that portion of the Appalachian Trail trying to locate him.

GF: You just paint me a picture then because there are obviously a couple of interactions that different people along the trail had with him. What do they add up to? I mean why was this man allegedly you know sort of threatening and bothering so many hikers?

MH: I don't know. I don't know what his problem was. But like I say the next day North Carolina come in contact with him. They were no warrants on him and they turned him loose. Well that afternoon he shows back up at the Tennessee, North Carolina line -- in my county. And they were some folks that had a little pull off there that was given food and water to hikers and some of the hikers that had had a problem with him were there. And that's when they recognized him and they called. And that come to my office. When my deputies arrived that afternoon when the call come in he was under the influence of something, I don't know whether he was -- it must have been drugs. He gave my officer a fake ID and a fake name, and they placed him under arrest.

GF: So he was in custody. He was under arrest.

MH: At that time, yes ma'am. He was searched and he was found to be in possession a small amount of marijuana and drug paraphernalia.

GF: So what happened then?

MH: I put him in jail. I sent my investigators back out to the hikers that had encountered him but they refused to press any charges against him. He stayed in jail and he went to court. And the judge ordered him to pay fines and cost and put him on probation and advised him not to be back on the trial. And he left Unicoi County.

GF: And then next thing you hear was of this attack?

MH: And the next thing I hear he's a suspect in a murder up in Virginia. I knew he was a threat and I had done everything that I could do to get him off the trail and I did -- I did take him off the trail but I can only do so much and I was limited to what I could do because of the hikers would not press charges or appear back in court.

GF: Did you feel some sense of responsibility knowing that you'd had him in custody and had to let him go?

MH: Yes I did. But I checked myself and checked all the records of what we had done -- I rechecked over the whole investigation -- there's nothing that I could have done any different.

GF: And you explain this all to the family of the young woman in Nova Scotia.

MH: I did and they sent a nice letter -- message back telling me that they fully understood that I was limited in what I could do and that is the truth.

GF: What do you think this is going to do for the Appalachian Trail? Do you think this is going to frighten people from hiking?

MH: I'm sure it will get the people's attention. You know we have thousands of people come through my county hiking the Appalachian Trail -- very good people from all walks of life. And you know I'm an outdoorsman. I'm a country boy. I walk the mountains all the time. If you encounter somebody that's not acting right or appears to be under the influence of something, they need to contact law enforcement as soon as possible.

GF: Right. But that's sort of what happened in this case, isn't it? People did contact and law enforcement wasn't able to keep him off the trail.

MH: Well they didn't want to cooperate. If they would have cooperated and come back to court and press charges we might have been able to keep him in jail in Tennessee.

GF: All right Sheriff Hensley we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for telling us the story today.

MH: Yes ma'am. Thank you.

JD: Mike Hensley is Sheriff of Unicoi, County. We reached him in Erwin, Tennessee. For more on this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Wild parrots

JD: In the 1980 horror classic "Alligator" -- a teenager buys a baby alligator on vacation. When she and her family get back to Chicago, her father angrily flushes it down the toilet. In the sewers, the pet alligator eats the carcasses of animals that were subjected to scientific experiments. Then it mutates, grows to a length of 11 metres and starts eating sewer workers. My point is: it thrives. Just like some other abandoned pets: parrots. There are only two parrot species that are native to the United States. One is extinct. The other now lives in Mexico. But a recent study published in the Journal of Ornithology found dozens of non-native species living in dozens of states and every one of those populations began with pet parrots that escaped from or were released by their owners. And researchers found something surprising: 56 different species of parrots scattered across 43 different states. Like the alligator in "Alligator" a lot of these birds were pets that someone could no longer handle. Also they are flourishing. Although I should point out that unlike the "Alligator" alligator none of the parents have eaten sewer workers. According to a study co-author, quote, "many of these species are perfectly happy living here and they've established populations. Wild parrots are here to stay."

[Music]

Part 3: Conrad Black's combative 2013 interview with As It Happens

Conrad Black on As it Happens

JD: Conrad Black is rarely at a loss for words. As you may have heard earlier on the program, Mr. Black has been granted a full pardon by U.S. President Donald Trump. In response, he wrote a piece for The National Post. As CTV News noted, it ran 1,698 words. Now Mr. Black did not reply to our request for an interview today. But he did speak with Carol back in 2013 about a TV interview he had conducted with then Toronto Mayor Rob Ford. At the time Mr. Black was hosting a television show for Vision TV. That interview was controversial more for what Mr. Black did not ask than for what he did. Carol's interview with Mr. Black about his interview ran 18 minutes. You can find it in full on our website: cbc.ca/aih. Here is an excerpt.

SOUNDCLIP

CAROL OFF: How damaging is it to be accused of things in the media or have slanderous things suggested to you about you in the media?

CONRAD BLACK: Well depends if there's any truth in them or not. I mean obviously truth is a defense against defamation, slander or libel. So it is very damaging if it is truth. If it is true that you've done terrible things. But the damages isn't the fact that it is recorded and referred to it -- is that you did it in the first place. But then it is certainly damaging to have supplementary fictitious slanders or libel added.

CAROL OFF: You know something of it yourself. You know how damaging it is and yet when Rob Ford said of Daniel Dale a Toronto Star reporter Rob Ford said I have little kids when a guy is taking pictures of little kids, I don't want to say the word but you start thinking what's this guy all about. What other word is there but the word pedophile?

CONRAD BLACK: Peeping tom...

CAROL OFF: Pervert.

CONRAD BLACK: Well yeah...

CAROL OFF: Rob Ford said Daniel Dale...

CONRAD BLACK: Wait a minute, you're asking me a question -- if you're going to answer your own questions you know we need not have phoned me at all. But I think there's room for a greater variety of interpretations in that. There are levels of perversion if you insist on using that word. But I took it as the lower end where it was trespassing, snooping, and an excessive but not necessarily a maladjusted or psychiatrically unbalanced curiosity. Now perhaps I'm just being a benign optimist and I note that I've been roundly accused in the sorts of places that you would imagine I might be for not leaping to the defence of a Toronto Star reporter. But the fact is Carol I don't think -- I mean I don't know if you're a parent but many of your listeners would be and I don't think any of us who have or had at one time young children under the age of 10 would be particularly pleased about seeing some stranger out leering over the back fence looking at them. I think it's a disturbing thing. I'm afraid I don't get on board here -- the transposition of the status of aggrieved party on this particular instance from the mayor to Mr. Dale. I have no grievance against Mr. Dale. I quoted his figures on his analysis of the budget performance of the Ford administration quite respectfully. And I thought he did a good report on that. I don't know him apart from that. But it is disturbing that total strangers doing that over your backyard.

CAROL OFF: What evidence is there that he did that?

CONRAD BLACK: Well I was taking the mayor's word for it. And if the mayor is lying about that, that is a very serious matter.

CAROL OFF: You established at the beginning of the interview -- it was quite interesting -- you established with him that Rob Ford does lie.

CONRAD BLACK: Doesn't mean he always lies.

CAROL OFF: Well is that not then if he is saying -- if he is suggesting that somebody is a paedophile or a pervert -- is that not something you ask him? The very obvious question.

CONRAD BLACK: I did not take it that way at all -- that he was saying he was a pedophile.

CAROL OFF: What other interpretation is there?

CONRAD BLACK: I've just given you some Carol I think you're overdoing this. I mean the fact is the guy is a journalist. He is in some manner allegedly looking over the Ford's back fence -- he is staring at young children playing in the yard. You don't have to be a pedophile. You can just be unduly nosy in the way frankly lots of journalists frequently are. And it is annoying to the person whose property is being spied on in that way. It doesn't mean he's a pedophile. I didn't take that that's what Ford would say.

CAROL OFF: Well actually Daniel Dale and this story has been investigated by the police is because you know Rob Ford called the police about Daniel Dale being not in his property but in a public area behind his property where he was taking pictures of a field or a public property that Mr. Ford would like to buy. He didn't look over the fence and there were no kids in the yard that anyone knows of. And the police investigators said there was absolutely no substance to this. This was all reported a long time ago. You're known for your research. Did you not know that this was completely wrong?

CONRAD BLACK: I didn't know any of that.

CAROL OFF: So you accepted what Mr. Ford had to say?

CONRAD BLACK: Yes I accepted it. I mean if your summary of things is correct then the mayor lied. I still don't see it as an allegation of pedophilia. I think there's an over hasty leap out of the starting blocks that we're seeing that. But certainly if your account that you just gave is accurate then the mayor lied and I would resent that if he did.

CAROL OFF: I guess what the point here is that if you -- and you establish this with Rob Ford -- if rumor and innuendo of suggesting slanderous things about people is damaging to them, is there a double standard when it's a journalist?

CONRAD BLACK: No. If that's what he did there is no double standard. If that's what he did, he shouldn't have done it. And indeed if what you just said is what happened -- going back to my days in the study in my brief days in the practice of law and certainly to my extensive experience in defamation matters -- Mr. Dale would have a case against him. But this case isn't against me. It's not my duty to debate with the mayor. I was asking questions and he was giving the answers.

JD: That was Conrad Black in conversation with Carol in December of 2013 about his interview with then Toronto Mayor Rob Ford.

[Music]

Mark Armstrong

SOUNDCLIP

NEIL ARMSTRONG: It's one small step for man. One giant leap for mankind.

JD: 11 words beamed back from space that still echo around the world 50 years after they were uttered by astronaut Neil Armstrong as he became the first man to set foot on the moon. And if you were already a human on our home planet of sufficient years to appreciate the moment at the time you probably remember exactly where you were as you watched Apollo 11's lunar module touch down. You certainly would if the guy climbing down that ladder to take that step and make that statement was your dad. Mark Armstrong may only have been six in 1969 but he remembers that moment vividly and the months building up to the launch. Mr. Armstrong is in Toronto for the screening of a documentary opening at the Ontario Science Centre this weekend. And earlier today, he shared some of his memories of that time with Metro Morning host Matt Galloway.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK ARMSTRONG: Dad had a little talk with us at our dining room table which was unusual for us. And he was very competent. He said you know we've been training and these spacecraft -- we feel very good about them. And everyone's ready to go. So we actually weren't worried that he wouldn't return. We felt very confident because he seemed confident. Now my mother must have been you know beside herself. But she's managed to hide that from us. And I'm grateful for that.

MATT GALLOWAY: Did you have a sense of what your dad was doing?

MARK ARMSTRONG: Yeah. Yeah we did. You know we grew up in a neighbourhood where pretty much everyone was working on Apollo. Their parents -- one or the other or both. So yeah we knew what was happening but we just didn't understand the risk. We didn't understand the danger.

MATT GALLOWAY: I was saying this earlier like it's almost hard to believe that we as a species that society did this. The government did this. But people did this. Do you find that hard to believe that something as ambitious as this was actually pulled off?

MARK ARMSTRONG: I think it was ahead of its time. I don't think there's any doubt about that especially when you recognize that you know your car fob probably has more technology than the computing power of the Apollo spacecraft. So it is incredible. And I think it just shows you when everyone lines up together what you can accomplish. And I think that's particularly relevant today when it's so hard to get everyone on the same page.

MATT GALLOWAY: Well said.

JD: Mark Armstrong is the youngest son of Neil Armstrong. He was speaking with Matt Galloway host of CBC Toronto's Metro Morning earlier today. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the lunar landing.

[Music]

Bob Hawke

JD: Today in Australia -- somewhat poetically two days shy of a federal election -- it was announced that Bob Hawke, a giant of Australian politics has died. Mr. Hawke was 89 years old. He was the prime minister of Australia from 1983 to 1991, and achieved the highest approval ratings of any leader before or after. His past before politics captured the high low contradictions that would make him the PM who best embodied how Australians liked to see themselves. He was an elite who attended the University of Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar. Yet while studying there his penchant for partying led him to be immortalized in the 1954 Guinness Book of Records for downing two and a half pints of beer in 11 seconds. Later as Australia's top politician, Bob Hawke modernised the economy, reintroduced universal health care, and campaigned to protect the environment. But it was his so-called "larrikin wit" that endeared him to the public. Such as his comments while celebrating Australia's victory at the 1983 America's Cup.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB HAWKE: I tell you what any bosses that sacks anyone for not turning up today is a bum. [Laughter]. You have to work a bit harder the next day to make up.

JD: In his later years, Mr. Hawke would reflect more about how he governed Australians while also being liked and respected by them. Speaking to Australia's Channel Ten in 2010, Mr. Hawke told interviewer Hugh Riminton how he felt after first becoming prime minister.

SOUNDCLIP

BOB HAWKE: There was a sense of exhilaration -- there is no doubt about that Hugh. The thing is I've been talking and thinking for many years about what needed to be done. I'd came to the office with a unique background of an academic qualification in economics. Then all those years as an advocate for the trade union movement when I was across the development of the Australian economy and its international context. So I came to the position with a very profound knowledge of the fact that Australia was in deep doo-doo.

HUGH RIMINTON: Now it is public knowledge -- it was public knowledge at the time you wanted it to be public knowledge that you gave up drinking so that you could be prime minister so that you could convince people that you were the appropriate man for that job.

BOB HAWKE: It was not just so I could convince them, it was deeper than that Hugh. I knew that in the past some of my behaviour -- when I'd had too much to drink -- was often abominable. It was just not on. And it was certainly not behaviour that could be tolerated in an Australian Prime Minister. And I had so much commitment to the task and love of my country that I was not going to go into parliament and become prime minister and run the risk of disgracing not just myself but my country.

JD: Bob Hawke speaking with Hugh Riminton for Australia's Channel Ten. Bob Hawke, the former Australian prime minister, has died. He was 89 years old.

[Music]

Cabbie rescue

Guest: Mike Stapleton

JD: It began as a run of the mill shift. St. John's cabbie Mike Stapleton was dropping off some passengers in the wee hours on Sunday and when he doubled back on his route, job done, he came across a car that had crashed into the concrete post of an overpass he himself had driven under only minutes before. What happened next is the very definition of a true good deed. We reached Mike Stapleton in St. John's, Newfoundland.

GF: Mike when you came across that crashed car what do you think had happened at first?

MIKE STAPLETON: Oh nothing -- I had seen the lights and the smoke coming from the back-end of the car. I figured someone would have you know had a few and ditched it or something. But I said I better check so I got out and I looked over and my god the screams coming out the girl and the driver was passed out. The guy in the backseat was unconscious full blood and the little one was screaming on the back floor.

GF: So there were four of them?

MS: One in the front seat was screaming -- she was wrapped around with the seat.

GF: Wow. So there were four of them in the car? Young people, were they?

MS: Four of them in the car. So I rushed over and I called my dispatch said send everyone -- ambulance, police, and that right. So I ran back and I said I'd better get them out because there was smoke coming from underneath the bottom of the car. So I managed to get the guy out -- put him outside and sit him on the sidewalk. And then I had a job getting the girl out of the car because her foot was either broke -- you know twisted up -- she had it jammed underneath the driver's seat.

GF: This was the girl in the backseat of the car.

MS: Yeah.

GF: So that's two you have got out and two more to go.

MS: Yeah. The young girl was still screaming -- "don't leave me." So I tried to break the seat out because I couldn't get the door open. I tried three times to get the door open. I tried breaking the door off. I tried you know inside -- I crawled inside the car and tried to get the door to force it open -- no way.

GF: And you're a big guy I understand...

MS: I was panicking because she was screaming right.

GF: I'm sure. And you're a big guy I understand.

MS: I'm 6 foot 4 or 5 -- 175 pounds. The door wouldn't come open. So I said Almighty God! If you're up there, give me strength. And sure enough, he gave it to me. The door came open. There it is. So the smoke certainly gets heavier. Then when I got her outside, she wasn't too bad -- had a little knee injury and a bit of her back and the fright I guess, right, from you know being stuck in the car full of smoke.

GF: What was going through your mind Mike as you were doing this because you could see the smoke -- what were you worried was going to happen?

MS: Oh I thought it was going to blow, right. So I walked around to the other side. I seen the young fellow he had a lot of blood on him so I said I don't know if I should move them. But then I saw the flame -- a little flame starting to come down through the dash board, got on the floor -- I said you have got to go out of here. I just undo his seatbelt and lifted him about 20 feet away from the car -- dragged him up. Oh my God. It was a horror story I tell you.

GF: And you did this all by yourself -- one guy.

MS: Yeah yeah yeah. And then one of our cab drivers -- a young girl -- showed up and I told her to go down and look after the young girl -- she was really in pain with her leg and that right. Two other people showed up. So I said go up above and look after the driver. So they carried them up another little bit right. I said that's going to blow. Never had the words out of my mouth. I had the girl moved that was on the sidewalk. And the flames started coming up from the car.

GF: Wow! And it blew, did it? I mean was there a big explosion?

MS: Oh yeah -- it caught on fire inside. [Inaudible].

GF: Oh my gosh.

MS: And my heart went up from mouth. So anyway when the police started to arrive he pulled right in front of the car and kaboom! The car blew up. Then it got real. The lump in my throat I said Oh my God -- I could've been in there. Anyway I got them out and they were in the hospital. And they survived it.

GF: You know the thought of what would have happened you know had you arrived two minutes later, three minutes later, five minutes later -- it must be going through your mind.

MS: Yeah. When the police saw the ambulances -- they (victims) wouldn't have remember this because they couldn't get out, they were conscious -- two of them -- and the girl in the backseat was -- I had to pry her foot from underneath the front driver's seat.

GF: Do you know how these kids are doing now today?

MS: Yeah they're doing pretty good now I hear you know they are recovering. And so God bless them.

GF: Have you been in touch with their families?

MS: Yeah their families have called me and thank me for saving the loved ones. And really humbling. I'm a humble guy.

GF: Well a humble guy who did a heroic thing. How do you feel about that?

MS: Well you know I think they are making too much of it. Listen, you're a human being, you got to do it. You see smoke, you've got to remove them.

GF: Well Mike they owe you an awful lot. And we are so thankful you got them out. And we're really thankful that you are taking the time today to tell us about this.

MS: No problem. Have a great day.

JD: Mike Stapleton is a driver with Jiffy Cabs in St. John's, Newfoundland. And that's where we reached him. If you'd like to learn more about this story go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Saudi student

JD: After months of uncertainty a Saudi Arabian student living in Canada got official word this week that his refugee claim had been accepted. We spoke to him last August. We are protecting his identity for his safety. Last summer, he and thousands of others of post-secondary students were told overnight by the Kingdom that their Saudi funded scholarships were being revoked -- or being pulled. The Kingdom did that in response to Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland tweeting criticism of the Saudis for jailing human rights activists. At the time the student told us that returning to Saudi Arabia was not an option for him. Here's part of his conversation with guest host Matt Galloway from last August.

SOUNDCLIP

SAUDI STUDENT: We feel really sad about it. For example, some of my friends called me and they have questioned me if there is any way to stay, to continue because we have courses left. There is no reason to just cut everything off and go back to Saudi Arabia. They couldn't understand why it's happening and they could not speak out against our government. They say ‘Yes, okay, we will do whatever the government wants from us.’

MG: You said that you feel safe here in this country. Do you fear returning? Do you worry about what could happen, personally, if you return to Saudi Arabia?

SS: I'm trying to speak out against the Saudi government, especially, what's going on in Yemen right now, as a Saudi citizen I extremely disagree with what's happened in Yemen. And because I'm trying to speak out and now I am speaking with you, I don't feel happy about what the Saudi government is doing.

MG: And so if you were to go back having spoken out, what do you think could happen to you and could happen to your family?

SS: The worst things you can imagine.

MG: The worst things we could imagine?

SS: Yeah they will arrest me and maybe worse.

MG: What are you going to do? You've got this letter, you've been told to leave within a month's time. What are you going to do?

SS: I will try to do something that can help me to stay in Canada for more time until this government of Saudi Arabia corrects what it is doing right now or until this government actually gets out of my country. I love my country. I love Saudi Arabia, but the Saudi government is really bad government. They are absolutely against human rights. And what Canada did, people in the world, not just me, appreciate what the Canadian government did.

MG: When you say that you're going to ask the Canadian government to stay, I mean, does that mean asking for refugee status here in Canada?

SS: Yes. A couple of Saudi students are asking about this but they don't know what to do and they cannot ask any person because they don't trust anyone. They are afraid of the Saudi government.

JD: That's a Saudi Arabian student in Canada whose identity we are protecting speaking with guest host Matt Galloway last August. This week the student learned that his refugee claim in Canada has been accepted.

[Music]

Sibling rivalry

JD: If you have a bro or a sis you know it is normal to experience a little sibling rivalry. What is not necessarily normal is to see that rivalry played out on the court -- as in the basketball court -- as in the NBA Conference Finals. But tonight as the Portland Trail Blazers take on the Golden State Warriors -- Dell and Sonya Curry will have a hard time picking a team to root for. Their eldest son, Stephen -- or Steph -- Curry plays for the Warriors. Their middle child Seth plays for Portland. Which makes them the first brothers to face each other in a conference final. Now for game one mom and dad who have been dubbed the first couple of the NBA flipped a coin to see who'd cheer for whom. Since then they have taken to donning custom made split jerseys honouring both players. For their sons Steph and Seth, the unique situation can be both special and challenging. Here's Steph Curry explaining as he spoke to reporters earlier this week.

SOUNDCLIP

STEPH CURRY: We've been talking about it for the last couple of days about how special it is obviously. We played plenty of games now on the same court and you understand what that vibe is like. But on this stage trying to chase a finals appearance -- it's pretty surreal. I think I caught myself a couple of times looking over stands at my parents who did the whole coin flip thing and they can't help themselves so any time either one of us did some good they both were clapping so they have got to fix themselves because I told my mom who you are with? When I made a shot I saw her stand up and cheer but I saw all Portland gear and it was just weird. So it is probably more nerve wracking for them in terms of just trying to get settled into what the series is going to mean.

JD: Golden State Warrior Steph Curry speaking to reporters earlier this week about what it's like to play against his brother and the Portland Trail Blazers during the NBA Western Conference Finals.

[Music]

Space Force

SOUNDCLIP

DONALD TRUMP: We are going to have the Air Force and we are going to have the Space Force -- separate but equal.

JD: That was U.S. President Donald Trump last June announcing the creation of a Space Force -- and demonstrating an apparent lack of understanding of the historical significance or context of the phrase separate but equal. This past February, President Trump finally officially signed Space Policy Directive-4, establishing the Space Force. The exact parameters of it remain unclear at this point. But the estimated costs of setting it up range from about 5 to 13 billion dollars depending I guess on how many exact replicas of the Millennium Falcon they are going to make. Of course any ambitious idea attracts nit pickers. Some critics say it will escalate to the militarization of space. Others are concerned it will just add more unmanageable bureaucracy to an already complicated military. And some familiar with the name Space Force think it is silly. Senator Ted Cruz has two words for all those naysayers: space pirates. Here he is speaking earlier this week to the U.S. Senate subcommittee on aviation and space that he chairs.

SOUNDCLIP

TED CRUZ: Since the ancient Greeks first put to sea, nations have recognized the necessity of naval forces and maintaining a superior capability to protect waterborne travel and commerce from bad actors. Pirates threatened the open seas and the same is possible in space. In this same way I believe we too must now recognize the necessity of a space force -- to defend the nation and to protect space commerce and civil space exploration.

JD: Texas Senator Ted Cruz passionately endorsing President Trump's Space Force as a necessary bulwark against space pirates. Now as we go to air there are no space pirates which is why Mr. Cruz was so roundly mocked on social media in particular by people who find it odd that he does not believe in fighting climate change with science and funding -- but he does believe in fighting galactic buccaneers with lasers. In his defense, the senator may be right. He's just a century or so too early. So perhaps in the year 2119 that little speech will be seen as a forward thinking tour de force. Tour de Space Force.

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May 16, 2019 Episode Transcript

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