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The AIH Transcript for May 15, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

GILLIAN FINDLAY: Hello, I'm Gillian Findlay, sitting in for Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

GF: A timely judgment call. A Canadian Supreme Court Justice makes a rare public statement about his mental health struggles — shedding light on the darkness that can descend in chambers.

JD: One small step for a ban. Alabama's restrictive new abortion law isn't just designed to ban the procedure — it's designed to enable Republicans to challenge Roe v. Wade in the U.S. Supreme Court.

GF: Access to grind. A prominent Palestinian leader says she's been barred from the U.S. And Hanan Ashrawi suspects it's because of her un-flattering opinions of the U.S. President.

JD: The almighty drawler. A dubious poll concludes Texans have the sexiest accents in America — which makes us wonder which Canadians generate the most inflectious enthusiasm.

GF: No musk, no fusk. An Alberta wildlife worker known as the "Skunk Whisperer" has no problem dealing with the putrid creatures — because she's immune to the smell of their spray.

JD: And...she's keeping them in stitches. Montreal borough mayor Sue Montgomery is knitting a scarf during council meetings — that also serves as a record of how long the men talk, compared to the women.

JD: "As It Happens", the Wednesday edition. Radio that regrets they're not all purls of wisdom.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Supreme Court of Canada Justice mental health, Hanan Ashrawi, council knitter

Supreme Court of Canada Justice mental health

Guest: David Butt

JD: It's incredibly rare for Supreme Court Justices to speak publicly. So it was remarkable to read a frank, personal statement yesterday, by Justice Clement Gascon. Last week, the judge was reported missing. Ottawa Police reported he was later found safe. In his statement, the Judge explained what had happened — writing, quote, "For over 20 years, I had been dealing with a sometimes insidious illness: depression and anxiety disorders." Unquote. For many, it was a reminder of another Supreme Court Justice. In 1988, Justice Gerald Le Dain was forced to resign, after mental health struggles of his own. Criminal lawyer David Butt was a clerk for Justice Le Dain. We reached Mr. Butt in Brantford, Ontario.

GF: Mr. Butt, when you read that statement by Justice Gascon, what went through your mind?

DAVID BUTT: Well, I had a number of reactions, Gillian. I think the first, most powerful one is that this is somebody who's being searingly honest. And I give him a ton of credit for that because that's so difficult —particularly in the kind of position he is to go public with an illness like this. And, of course, it's also incredibly brave. But it's also I think profoundly progressive that he is willing in the role that he occupies as a Supreme Court judge to say that yes, I do struggle with mental illness. But more importantly, yes, I can still do my job. And I think that was as I say just profoundly progressive.

GF: When he issued his statement, he said it was because his family had reported him missing last week. He said he'd suffered a panic attack after changing his medication, and after dealing with what he called a heart-rending decision. And that was to retire from the court this summer. Have you ever heard a judge — let alone a Supreme Court justice — speak so openly about something so personal?

DB: No, no, this is unprecedented at least in my experience. And indeed, within the legal community, there is this cultural norm that we hear nothing from judges except through their judgments, of course, which is critically important — and also occasionally bland after-dinner speeches at legal conferences. So there is very much a culture of secrecy around the judiciary. And in a certain sense that dehumanizes them. And so what Justice Gascon has done here is to take that remarkable and timely step forward by saying you know what? We're people too. We have difficulties as well, but we still work hard at our jobs. And I think again that's just incredibly important for him to have that honesty.

GF: It wasn't so very long ago that judges suffering mental health challenges were treated very differently. And you have your own specific experience with what happened with Justice Gerald Le Dain in 1988. Can you tell us briefly what that was?

DB: Sure. I was clerking for Justice Le Dain, which is a research assistant for a judge. And he was working on a very important case for the country at the time — the Bill-101 cases — dealing with English language rights in Quebec. And, of course, it was a very stressful decision. There's a lot of statecraft involved in addition to tough legal questions. And the pressure got to him. And very shortly after his draft of the judgment was completed, he took ill with anxiety and depression. Very similar to what Justice Gascon is suffering. But it was treated in a very different way. He was essentially forced to resign by then Chief Justice Dixon. It was tragic because he remained from his hospital bed at the time engaged in the drafts of the judgment. So fully functional, but the court would have nothing of any sort of public announcement that any judge who participated in a decision was in the slightest mentally ill. Very different times, but by today's standards, it was just an appalling act of discrimination based on an illness.

GF: And what was the reason do you think — of I don't know if we know — what Chief Justice Dixon's reasons were at the time? Why could he no longer sit on the bench?

DB: You know it was a different era. And I think that certainly, the prevailing, immature attitudes around mental illness played a significant role. It was thought that to admit to a mental illness was to somehow stigmatize the person, and therefore, the court. And that the court couldn't have that kind of stigma associated with it.

GF: And what effect did it have on him once he was forced to resign?

DB: You know it was like his soul was punctured. And you could just see the air slowly seep out over time. This was a man who was brilliant. He was extremely accomplished as both a lawyer and as an academic. A tremendously accomplished man dismissed in an inhumane way, and he never fully recovered. Not from his mental illness. He was he was bright and engaged intellectually, but never recovered in terms of his confidence at being so frankly badly treated.

GF: Almost to add insult to injury, I guess? It wasn't just that he was forced to resign, but some of that work that you mentioned was almost erased, wasn't it?

DB: Effectively, at least his contribution to it. Again, during the course of my clerkship, I worked long, long hours. And he was a meticulous writer. He took great pride in the craft of legal writing. And he'd drafted a judgment that now constitutes about 95 per cent of the judgment in that case. And yet, when he was forced to resign, the Supreme Court effectively erased his contribution altogether by putting an asterisk beside his name when the official version of the case came out. And you read down at the bottom that asterisk says Justice Le Dain took no part in the judgment. And nothing could be further from the truth.

GF: Did his family ever get an apology?

DB: No. We did after. I should pause and say Bonnie Brown and the CBC did just a marvelous documentary telling this whole story to the nation. And in the aftermath of that, that was in 2018, and in the aftermath of that, a group of us who were involved in the documentary, who were involved at the time, and knew Justice Le Dain very well co-wrote a letter to the Supreme Court saying you know in light of this, it's all public record now, would you acknowledge that that asterisk can be removed? And that Justice Le Dain’s name can remain on the judgment in the same way that every other judge's name is on it. The Supreme Court for legalistic and technical reasons expressed a lot of sympathy but declined to do anything. And that I think was most unfortunate. I mean once the reality is out there, I would have thought to be a moral imperative to just set the record straight.

GF: And not a huge gesture for them to have made at that point?

DB: No, there were no costs involved. You just next edition of the Supreme Court report, you just remove the asterisk. It's really quite simple. But not something they were able to do. Nonetheless, you know fast forwarding to justice Gascon’s situation, I'm relieved to see that I think lessons have been learned — despite that tepid response about the asterisk.

GF: Well it was interesting by contrast to see the comments yesterday from the Chief of Supreme Court Richard Wagner. He was commending Justice Gascon for his courage, saying that how proud he and his colleagues were of him. And that he had his full support and confidence, and he looks forward to seeing him back on the bench this week. It's quite a change, isn't it?

DB: It's a dramatic change, and it's gratifying. It's hugely gratifying to see that — even if, which I find disappointing, they're not able to correct the legacy of that asterisk and Justice Le Dain’s contribution to that judgment — at the very least, they were certainly it appears able to learn the lessons that that kind of mistake cannot be repeated. And you know Justice Gascon’s goes bravery, and the court’s unqualified endorsement of him is very much consistent with the times. And it's exactly the message that all of us should be embracing in that people can achieve and achieve great heights even with mental illness.

GF: David Butt, thank you so much for telling us about this today.

DB: My pleasure, Gillian.

GF: Bye-bye.

DB: Bye now.

JD: David Butt is a criminal lawyer in Toronto. We reached him in Brantford, Ontario. We have posted a link on our website to “One Judge Down” — a documentary that aired last year on “The Sunday Edition” about Supreme Court Justice Gerald Le Dain and his mental health struggles. And on Sunday, Michael Enright will speak to Richard Janda, a McGill University law professor who also clerked for Justice Le Dain. Go to: www.cbc.ca/aih, and/or www.cbc.ca/sundy for more details.

[Music: Ambient]

Hanan Ashrawi

Guest: Hanan Ashrawi

JD: She's met with American presidents and secretaries of state, and studied for her PhD in the United States. But now, Palestinian leader Hanan Ashrawi has been told she's not welcome in that country. Ms. Ashrawi is on the executive committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization, and has served as a negotiator in peace talks. Now, she says that the U.S. has, without explanation, denied her latest request for a visa. We reached Hanan Ashrawi in Maribor, Slovenia.

GF: Ms. Ashrawi, what do you think the U.S. government's message is in rejecting your visa application?

HANAN ASHRAWI: Well, the message is very clear. I think that they're going to go to any lengths in they're very petty and vindictive way in order to punish the Palestinian people and leadership. And they've been targeting the leadership lately — and saying that the Palestinians need new leadership. And they're telling us either we you know accept their own terms and play ball the way they want us to. Or they'll go to any length, including you know individual bans on people.

GF: Well, the State Department was asked about this obviously. And it said it wouldn't comment on why yours was rejected this time. But it did say it doesn't refuse visas based solely on political statements or views. You're not convinced of that.

HA: [laughs] Of course not. Of course not. I mean what else? They said that the other reasons are they declared there would be terrorism or criminal records or whatever. And certainly, I don't fit any of these profiles. It’s just a very mean-spirited approach because they don't like what I've been saying or writing about them.

GF: Well, tell me about that. What have you been saying?

HA: Well, I've been saying that the U.S. has disqualified itself as a peace broker, that I'm against populism and unilateralism and racism and misogyny and Islamophobia and anti-Semitism.

GF: But these are things you have been. You have said for years and years and years, aren’t they?

HA: Exactly. And I said yes, but somehow because the message its home I guess. and because you know a couple of times I talked about the extreme ideological dimension of American politicians — whether it's Pompeo, who's waiting for the rapture. Or whether that Pence, who thinks God gave him dispensation. Also just some Jason Greenblatt and Jared Kushner and David Friedman, whom I described as the Israeli extreme right-wing ambassador to the world. They went to the U.S.

GF: The U.S. ambassador to Israel, yes.

HA: Exactly.

GF: You've pointed out that you have met many U.S. presidents, secretaries of state, Middle East envoys over the years as a negotiator, as an elder statesman — if you'll accept that term.

HA: [laughs] I admit my age.

GF: How would you say that the Trump administration's current position on this — how is it different from the other administrations you've dealt with, including Republican ones?

HA: Yeah, well, frankly speaking, I mean we knew that the U.S. has never been even-handed or objective about the issue. And that they did have a special relationship with Israel. But this is the first time that we've see them identify with Israel completely to the point where they became complicit. I mean look, when they decided that Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, 14 members out of 15 of the Security Council rejected this.

GF: You mentioned Jared Kushner — the president's son-in-law — and next month, we are told that he will be revealing the administration's new Israeli-Palestinian peace plan. Do you expect that there will be anything in that document that a Palestinian leader could work with at this point?

HA: Well, we know what's going to be in that document because already all the issues that are supposed to be negotiated as part of the permanent status talks — like Jerusalem, refugees settlements, security, and water have been entirely predetermined by the U.S. They've taken steps on all these issues. They smashed the negotiating table to smithereens because they totally destroyed the foundations of any peace. And then what is left after you take these positions and you prejudge the outcome of the talks then you start saying okay, let's talk about economic issues and how to make living conditions better for the Palestinians. So they are moving now towards the Arab countries — particularly the Gulf countries — to try to normalize with Israel and to foot the bill of an economic plan that will only carry out cosmetic changes on the Palestinians and maintain Israeli control under the guise of security. And enable Israel to continue annexing more land the building more settlements.

GF: Many people are interpreting this as a political act, but this is also personal for you too, isn't it? I mean you had personal reasons for wanting to travel to the United States.

HA: Yes, I always do. I have my daughter and her husband and my grandchildren, whom I adore, who are in the States. And I have nephews and nieces and another sister and my husband's whole families in the States. The irony is that Israel had revoked my daughter's I.D.’s. So she cannot stay in Palestine because of the Jerusalem I.D. So now I cannot go see her. She cannot live in Palestine, and I cannot go see her and the U.S. It seems like a very strange and ironic combination. But we'll have to meet in a third country, which is not easy. I think that yeah, the personal aspect is important to me, but I don't want to make it the issue. Because that is a certain degree of cruelty, and we've been undergoing this cruel treatment for a very long time as you know. The main thing is that this is a personal message, but it's also a political collective message. And it means that if you are for peace, if you are for a negotiated settlement or for nonviolent resistance, that this will not be recognized. And the message to the violent and the more ideological and extremist elements — including Hamas — has been that you make enough trouble you will be listened to. If you are rational, reasonable, and in full commitment to international law and human rights, then, of course, you will be punished.

GF: Hana Ashrawi, thank you so much.

HA: You're most welcome. Thank you.

GF: Bye-bye.

JD: We reached Hanan Ashrawi in Maribor, Slovenia. We have more on this story on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih

[Music: Ambient]

Council knitter

Guest: Sue Montgomery

JD: When Sue Montgomery began knitting a scarf during city council meetings this week, it wasn't just to help pass the time. Ms. Montgomery is the mayor of a Montreal borough. And she's knitting to make a political point. Not everyone, however, agrees with what she and her scarf are trying to say. Sue Montgomery is in her office in Montreal today, that's where we reached her.

GF: Ms. Montgomery, can you describe the scarf that you are knitting during council meetings.

SUE MONTGOMERY: Well, it started at a point, and it goes out into sort of a triangle. And to say the least, it’s majority is red. It's probably about 80 per cent red.

GF: So explain that to me. Why is it red?

SM: Well okay, so I decided to knit in red when men speak, and in stop speaking. And in green when women speak, i.e. let's speak more, go, talk.

GF: So every time a man gets up in council and talk talks, you’re knitting in red. And then when he sits down and a woman gets up, you knit in green?

SM: That's right.

GF: So what does that scarf look like now?

SM: Well, it's mostly red. It's about — surprise, surprise — it's mostly red. It's about I don't know 80-85 per cent red, and 20-25 per cent 5 percent green, I would say.

GF: Eighty-fire per cent?

SM: Yeah, so one thing you need to know is that we have parity, more or less. We have 31 women and 34 men. So it's not a question of numbers. And it's also not a question of women not taking their place to speak. We have a lot of women that stand up and speak in council. But they're efficient. They stand up. They make their point. And they sit down. But there is a handful of men who I've sort of identified as I was knitting who stand up, and they just feel they need to take up their allotted time — all of it. Whether it be 20 minutes or 15 minutes. You know we're all allotted a certain amount of time. I don't know what that is right now. But they repeat the same thing over and over and over in several different ways. You know, people's eyes just glaze over. And there's no way you can listen to someone talk for that long.

GF: So why do you think that is?

SM: Good question. I mean I've asked them that. Before I started my project, I approached some of them and said, can you tell me why you have this need to repeat everything you say in counsel like many different ways? You don't need to. Like you can make your point, and we get it, and you sit down. And one of them said you know I'm speaking it’s for the media. And I said I used to be a journalist, and I can promise you that the journalists are not listening when you go on like that. I mean everyone knows that if you want the journalists to listen, you give them concise information that they can use in their stories. So they don't seem to understand that. I think they have this thinking that the more I talk and the bigger words I use, and the longer I go on, the smarter I sound, which is not the case.

GF: And now you have given them a visual reminder of that with your scarf that's 85 per cent red. What has been the reaction of your male colleagues on council?

SM: Oh, they were very angry yesterday. And, of course, they put two women up to criticize me, to call me sexist, and to say that I'm trivializing city council by knitting. But, in fact, the knitting actually allows me to focus. There are studies that have been done, and I can listen to everything, and I could tell them everything that was said over the two days. You know at least the topics — not all the details. And it's also all in French, which isn't my mother tongue. So that takes an extra level of concentration as well.

GF: But they are calling you sexist?

SM: Yeah.

GF: For doing this.

SM: Because you know they're saying if we were to say this about women — that women talk too much — there would be an outcry. But the bottom line is women don't talk that much in meetings, in conferences. So I've posted this on Twitter and Facebook, and it's going viral around the world because and all these women are saying we should do this in our meetings, we should do this a council, we should do this at university you know to display — to demonstrate visually — that men take up a lot of space.

GF: Do you think it's going to make a difference on council — the next meeting?

SM: Well, we'll see because I'm going to knit… we have a council meeting every month, except July. So there's five more council meetings before Christmas. And I'm going to net up until Christmas. And then I'm going to auction it off, and give the money to an organization that helps empower women either you know to go into politics or something like that. I haven't decided the group yet. And we'll see. Like I'm hoping that there’ll be more green by Christmas. But I don't know if they're going to get the message.

GF: All right. Well, we'll check back in with you at Christmas. Thank you so much, Sue.

SM: Thank you. Bye-bye

GF: Take care, bye-bye.

JD: Sue Montgomery is knitting a scarf that shows how much longer men speak compared to women on council in Montreal. We reached Ms. Montgomery in her office in Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

I promise that too many options will make a tyrant.

Sexy accent

SOUNDCLIP

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY: I promise you too many that too many options will make a tyrant of us all, okay? So get rid of the excess, the wasted time, decrease your options. If you do this, you will have accidentally, almost innocently, put in front of you what is important to you by process of elimination.

JD: That's Texan actor Matthew McConaughey, waxing poetic. Now, Mr. McConaughey is an attractive man. And some of that attractiveness stems from his chilled-out Texas accent. An accent so sexy he can spout total gibberish while pretending to drive a luxury car and we all still think "That guy's cool." But is it the sexiest American accent? Heck yes it is, according to the folks at Big 7 Travel, which is some kind of travel content "mobile-first" company I'd never heard of until today, and do not understand the purpose of. An article on that site is entitled "The Top 50 Sexiest Accents in the USA - Ranked". The methodology? Well, they claim the results, quote, "follow on from sample survey results of our 1-point-5 million social audience." Unquote. No, I have no idea what that means either, but just for fun, let's peruse the ranking. At 50: the Long Island accent.

SOUNDCLIP

LADY: Long Island people liked to drink coffee, shop at the mall, walk their dog, and swim in the water.

JD: Beautiful. At number two: Boston.

SOUNDCLIP

MAN: Look, with all due respect, I didn’t come here for a debate. I’m not doing it, so you know. Work it out however you can.

JD: So hot. And as I said, at number one: Texas.

SOUNDCLIP

MM: You might not ever just stand there, looking at it. I mean you may never even sit in the back seat. That’d be a shame.

JD: Oh my! Matthew McConaughey and another Lincoln commercial — this time talking to a second Matthew McConaughey, sitting in the back seat and really enjoying this other selves company. Anyway, this silly — probably made up — ranking got us thinking what are the sexiest Canadian accents? The sensual lilt of St. Anthony, Newfoundland. The come hither annunciation of Yorktown, Saskatchewan. The dulcet purr of Salmon Arm, British Columbia. Tell us what you think on the Twitter: @cbcasithappens. Or email us: aih@cbc.ca. Or better yet, prove your sexy accent by calling talkback: 416-205-5687, and whispering sweet somethings into the phone. Because it's a-boot time.

Part two: Alabama abortion, “Skunk Whisperer”

Alabama abortion

Guest: Emily Shugerman

JD: Alabama became the latest state in the US to ban abortion last night. Red states are rushing to pass tough abortion laws. And the Alabama bill — which is now on the governor's desk — is one of the most restrictive. It allows for abortions in only a handful of cases — and doctors who perform the procedure would face up to 99 years in prison. Here's Republican State Senator Clyde Chambliss defending the ban, yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

CLYDE CHAMBLISS: Life is a life. And even if it’s origins are in very difficult situations, that life is still precious. Life is a gift of our creator, and we must do everything that we can to protect life.

JD: Emily Shugerman writes about politics, culture and gender for The Daily Beast. We reached her in New York.

GF: Emily Shugerman, when you saw the bill that got passed in Alabama last night, were you surprised?

EMILY SHUGERMAN: I was not surprised. I have been following Alabama and other states like Georgia that are trying to pass increasingly strict legislation around abortion. And this seemed like part of a plan that we've been seeing played out for the last several months.

GF: Well, tell me a little bit about this legislation in Alabama in particular. How restrictive is it?

ES: So this is the strictest restriction on abortion that has passed the state legislature in the US. This would ban pretty much all abortions in Alabama — starting six months after it signed into law.

GF: Even for cases of rape, even for cases of incest.

ES: Exactly. There are only a few exceptions to this ban — so if the pregnancy would threaten the life of the mother, or if the fetus has a very severe abnormality, but no exceptions for victims of rape or incest.

GF: You watched the debate in Alabama I understand yesterday. How did it play out? What was the debate, or was there debate?

ES: Well, the debate was more than four hours long. And it was a very busy day in the State House. It was mainly a question and answer session between Democrats and the sponsor of the bill and the Senate — Senator Chambliss. There was a lot of discussion about the senators not being a medical professional. They weren't entirely sure about the timeline or the medical specifics around it.

GF: Or about when a woman might know that she's pregnant I understand.

ES: Exactly. Because the legislation allows, apparently, for that ending of a pregnancy before a woman knows she is pregnant, which confused a lot of people because it doesn't quite make sense why someone would try to get an abortion if they didn't know they were pregnant. So there are a lot of questions about that. And it was difficult for the sponsor, Senator Chambliss to come to a hard and fast answer about it.

GF: Right. And in the end, it passed.

ES: Exactly.

GF: And this seems to be part of a trend. I think something in excess of a dozen states have enacted, or are in the process of trying to enact more restrictive abortion legislation. You have written that a lot of this is being inspired by a woman named Janet Porter. What can you tell us about her?

ES: So Janet Porter is an anti-abortion activist, who's also worked at places like Whe Center for Reclaiming America, which fights against LGBTQ rights as well. She was the first to inspire what anti-abortion activists call heartbeat legislation, which bans abortion after a fetal heartbeat can be detected, which is usually after about six weeks, and is often before most women know that they're pregnant.

GF: And we have seen that in a number of states. This is not the first time that she has tried to get this kind of legislation passed, is it?

ES: Exactly. Porter first introduced one of these bills in Ohio back in 2011. And at that time, even Ohio Right to Life — one of the biggest anti-abortion advocates in the state — thought that it was a crazy idea, and actually did not support it because they knew it would be challenged in the court and likely would lose.

GF: So what's changed?

ES: What's changed is that now there is a conservative majority on the Supreme Court. And so these states are hoping to line up a challenge to Roe v. Wade, which is the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion around the country in 1973.

GF: And does that then explain why you seem to be seeing state after state after state introducing and passing this kind of legislation?

ES: Exactly.

GF: Yeah, I even Representative Terry Collins — who introduced the ban in Alabama — apparently said that this was not designed to be a lasting law. So what is the strategy that they are hoping to play out here?

ES: The strategy is essentially for these laws to be challenged in court. And for those challenges to make their way up — all the way up to the highest court in land: The Supreme Court. Of course, there's no guarantee that the Supreme Court will actually take this up. We saw a case involving Planned Parenthood get denied by the Supreme Court just a couple of weeks ago. But the hope is that if there are enough challenges out there that one will make it to the Supreme Court, and they will overturn Roe v. Wade, and let the states decide whether abortion is legal or not.

GF: And why have they decided this is the moment?

ES: They've decided this is the moment because President Trump has now appointed two justices to the Supreme Court — both of whom appear to not favour abortion rights. And so this pushes the majority into one that could likely overturn Roe v. Wade.

GF: And are they in a hurry to get it done? Do they see the window potentially closing?

ES: You know, it's unclear, I think that nothing in the Supreme Court moves quickly. But all these conservative legislators have been waiting for years — maybe decades — to have a court that is sympathetic to their aims. And so they’d all like to be the first one to do that.

GF: Yeah, it seems remarkable doesn't it that after decades that Roe v. Wade could actually be overturned — such a cornerstone on such a volatile and important issue in the United States and elsewhere. I mean do you think it's feasible that what we're looking at now is the precursor to that actually happening?

ES: It's hard to say. And I wouldn't want to be someone who would incite panic. But I definitely think that it is an increasing possibility. And we already see states preparing for that to happen. So it seems like legislators in states like Alabama are getting ready for that to happen. They're instituting trigger bans in which they say that abortion will be illegal in their state as soon as Roe v. Wade is overturned.

GF: And what will that mean? What will abortion rights look like in the United States if that happens?

ES: It will look a lot like the days of before Roe v. Wade, in which women who want to get abortions and who live in states where it's illegal will have to travel to other states — possibly other countries — in order to get them. And women who can't afford that will be left to their own means, which could be very dangerous.

GF: Emily Shugerman, thank you so much for telling us about this today.

ES: Thank you.

GF: Bye-bye.

ES: Bye:

JD: Emily Shugerman writes about politics, culture, and gender for the Daily Beast. We reached her in New York.

[Music: Acoustic guitar]

FAA testimony

JD: U.S. lawmakers are finding it hard to trust the Federal Aviation Administration these days. After the crashes of two 737 MAX aircraft, they want to know why the FAA certified the aircraft as safe. And why they waited to ground the jets, after much of the world had already made that call. Today, acting FAA administrator Daniel Elwell tried to answer some of those questions in front of the House Transportation Comittee. Here's part of his exchange with Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton.

SOUNDCLIP

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON: I think the public — which will be interested in this hearing — wants to know why did it take you so long after the Ethiopian Airlines accident? Explain that to this committee.

DANIEL ELWELL: Ms. Norton, thank you for that question. The FAA’s a data-driven, risk-based systems approach to all things safety. When we take an action — and whether it's the grounding of an aircraft or an airworthiness directive…

[crosstalk]

EHN: Other countries weren’t data-driven? That's the difference between you and other countries?

DE: I can't speak to the decision making of other countries. I can tell you this: a number of countries that that grounded their 737 MAX fleets called us immediately after and asked what data we had? Several countries asked after grounding their fleets…

[crosstalk]

EHN: That means that they were looking at real-time, real-life evidence. Even if it may have contradicted the data, are you still as reliant on data as you were then compared to other countries? Today, would you be reliant only on data?

DE: Well ma'am, that's a great question. We made our decision to ground the aircraft when we had the data that linked the two flights — data to link the flights. But we weren't just sitting waiting for the cockpit voice recorder or the flight data recorder. We were examining as the regulator of our 787 Max fleet, what's going on with our fleet? And we drew data on 57,000 flights. And we were talking constantly with our neighbour to the north.

EHN: It was after the first?

DE: From the first accident, but up through Ethiopia.

EHN: Did the president make this call, or did the FAA make this call?

DE: FAA is the safety regulator. FAA made the call to ground…

[crosstalk]

EHN: And he only made the announcement. Is that what you’re saying? You were prepared to make that call yourself after the second accident?

DE: Yes, ma'am.

EHN: You wouldn't have waited for a third accident? The data told you after the second accident?

DE: Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

JD: That was U.S. congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton questioning FAA acting administrator Daniel Elwell about the agency's decision to ground the Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, after two fatal crashes.

[Music: Ambient]

Jacinda Ardern

JD: For New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, it was a simple choice. On March 21st, six days after the Christchurch mosque attacks, she announced a ban on assault rifles and military-style semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand. The ban on selling these weapons went into effect the moment her press conference was over. Just like that. Done. Which is why Ms. Ardern is a bit mystified that the the United States hasn't brought in stronger gun laws of its own. Here's part of her conversation yesterday with CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

SOUNDCLIP

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: I mean just to remind, over 110 mass shootings in the United States since 1982, according to an investigative site. Fifteen school shootings alone this year. It's a really difficult topic to grapple. I mean I wonder whether you ever think that other countries can learn from what you did, and actually from what neighbouring Australia did after their massacre in 1996. A conservative government passed tough gun laws.

JACINDA ARDERN: And in both cases you know, and again, I have to acknowledge New Zealand had pretty permissive gun legislation.

CA: Well, actually some of some of your people said you know we feed half the world, we're hunters.

JA: And we are. And we will continue to be a food-producing nation that deals with animal welfare issues and so on. And has a practical purpose and use for gun. But you can draw a line and say that that does not mean that you need access to military-style, semiautomatic weapons and assault rifles. You do not. And New Zealanders, by and large, absolutely agreed with that position. Australia experienced a massacre and changed their laws. New Zealand had its experience and changed its laws. To be honest with you, I do not understand the United States.

JD: Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern, in conversation yesterday with CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

[Music: Piano]

“Skunk Whisperer’

Guest: Gwen Marshall

JD: You may never have heard of Gwen Marshall's super power. But after this, you may consider her somewhere up there with Thor — perhaps even Captain Marvel. Ms. Marshall is a wildlife conflict specialist at the Red Deer-based Medicine River Wildlife Centre. She is known as the "Skunk Whisperer". And she's suddenly famous, after a video was recently posted to Facebook, in which she rescues a skunk from a skate bowl. You can see Ms. Marshall deploying expert skunk-calming skills. What you can't see is her superhuman imperviousness to the smell of skunk spray. We reached Gwen Marshall in Sylvan Lake, Alberta.

GF: Ms. Marshall, when you say you are impervious to skunk spray, what do you mean?

GWEN MARSHALL: It means that I pretty much can't smell it. And if one sprays like right next to me, it only smells very faintly of garlic toast.

GF: [laughs] I have never heard anybody equate skunk spray with garlic toast before.

GM: Yes, apparently it's not very common, but that's how it reads to me.

GF: And you have been sprayed up close, so you've had the full effect of a spray?

GM: Yes, I got tagged in the face once. So I've been sprayed dead on. And it stings when it gets in your eyes, but I wiped my face off, and then I promptly forgot I'd been sprayed because it didn't really smell like much to me.

GF: You’re in the perfect line of work, aren't you?

GM: Absolutely.

GF: And is there anything else you don't smell, or is it just sunk?

GM: No, I seem to smell other stuff just fine. I can definitely smell other stinky critters. But just not skunks.

GF: Okay, well given your line of work, help us with a little advice here. You know, it's obviously an occupational hazard for you to get sprayed. Thank goodness you don't smell it. But for the rest of us who do and don't like it, what's your advice as to how to deal with skunks?

GM: Well, best thing to remember is that the skunks do not want to spray you. They only spray when they feel their life is in danger. So if you encounter a skunk, you know you're out walking and you see one, just stop and talk to it calmly. Because skunks have a very poor sense of vision, so sometimes they don't realize you're there unless you make a noise. So if you scream and freak out, they think oh my goodness! I'm under attack! But if you talk to them calmly, just let them know you're there, they'll look at you and they run away.

GF: Well, we saw you demonstrating that in that video that we referenced when you were rescuing the skunk at the skatepark. When you say talk to them calmly, I mean what were you saying to that skunk?

GM: I was you know saying hi. Saying oh gee, it looks like you've had a really bad night. You know, just holding a one-sided conversation with the skunk. Just because you know if you're talking, you're not a predator. So it's you know just keeping up the stream of dialogue, not really thinking about it, paying attention to the skunks body language so that way you know I can see yeah, it realizes I'm not a threat and I can move forward.

GF: And you were actually able to go in and scoop it up, weren’t you?

GM: Yeah. Yeah. I put my little blanket on it, and I smushed it into my cat crate. And I was able to get it out of the skatepark there.

GF: And how often do you do that?

GM: We don't get so many calls about rescuing skunks. Although, I usually you know see about 10 to 15 a year that need to be actually rescued. The vast majority of what I'm doing is I'm helping people with skunks living in inopportune spaces. They like to live under our front steps, and under our sheds, and you know buy our houses because our presence keeps their predators away. And they know it.

GF: Okay, so that's how one should deal with a skunk that one is trying to get rid of. But if you don't do it properly, and you do in fact get sprayed, what's the best way to deal with that?

GM: We have a recipe on our website, and it's something you can make at home. It's a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, baking soda, and dish soap. And you mix it up, use it right away, and it'll chemically break down the skunk smell.

GF: And when you say use it, what do you mean? What do you do with it?

GM: You can you know apply it to your clothing. You could apply it to yourself. You can apply it to your pets. You know, just make sure it doesn't get in your eyes. And use it kind of like you would a soap.

GF: Okay so the old wives tale — and maybe it's not a wives tale — of the tomato sauce bath. Does that not work?

GM: It does nothing. At most, it might stain your pets a little bit pink. But it does not take the smell out.

GF: [laughs] Okay, so tell me again. Its dish soap and?

GM: Dish soap, hydrogen peroxide, and baking soda.

GF: Right. Is this a growing problem for us? Are there more skunks now than there used to be who are seeking the refuge of the safety that they find in human communities?

GM: I mean it's not so much that there are more of them. It's that they're taking advantage of opportunities where leaving. And more people are not willing to just trap it and kill it. They want to seek a better solution that you know doesn't hurt the skunk, and actually works. I mean if trapping worked, we wouldn't have skunks anymore because people have been trapping them since the first settlers arrived. But it's just not an effective way of dealing with the population.

GF: Mm hmm. So what is your advice then about how we put more distance between us and skunks that we may not be welcoming?

GM: Well, most important thing is to think about why the skunk is there. And the skunks are there because we've got food and we've got shelter. So if you take away the food, you know make sure your garbage is contained, clean up after any you know fallen crab apples on the ground, make sure pet food’s not being left out, and you know addressing anywhere they might want to live. Like if you've got a really welcoming step or a welcoming shed, if you close it up with wire and you know make it so nothing can live there, if there's no food and no shelter, the skunks will leave.

GF: And if they don't, there's always the whispering.

GM: [laughs] Yes, we can always help you out if they don't leave.

GF: Thank you so much, Gwen, for talking to us today.

GM: No problem at all. It was my pleasure.

JD: “Skunk Whisperer” Gwen Marshall is with the Medicine River Wildlife Centre. We reached her in Sylvan Lake, Alberta.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Part three: Meth First Nation, Nigerian children freed

B.C. money laundering

JD: British Columbia Premier John Horgan says he wants to get to the bottom of his province's money-laundering problems. And to that end, today, he announced a long-awaited public inquiry. Last week, the B.C. government revealed that more than seven billion dollars had been laundered through the province in 2018 — with more than five billion of that in real estate. Other reports, by former RCMP deputy commissioner Peter German, detailed how bags of dirty money were brought through luxury car companies and casinos — and the loopholes that allowed criminals to get away with it. Here is Premier Horgan announcing the inquiry today.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN HORGAN: The Minister of Finance, the Attorney General, and I have just left cabinet — where we have agreed and passed the appropriate orders to hold a public inquiry into gaming, and money laundering, and the whole range of other activities that have flowed from the investigations that have been underway since we were sworn in as government. Last fall, there was a prosecution underway that had been years in the making. And it was it failed, and was thrown out of court. A stay was issued. It was at that time that we sat down as a cabinet and said how can we ensure that the people of British Columbia see consequences for the action of criminals and criminal activity in British Columbia? We asked Mr. German to expand his scope to look at luxury autos, horse racing, and other elements in the economy. And Minister James put in place an expert panel to review the potential impacts of money laundering in our housing sector. Now those distortions were obvious to British Columbians, they were obvious to people, and they were obvious to governments as well. Over that two year period, there were many calls. Some from you in this room, some from outside this room for a full public inquiry into money laundering in British Columbia. We resisted that initially as we collected information because we wanted to make sure we were doing everything we could for the people of B.C. to demonstrate consequences for the actions of criminals in our economy. That criminal activity has had a material impact on people. Whether it be the rise of opioid addictions, the rise of opioid deaths as a result of overdoses. Whether it was the extraordinary increase in housing costs, people were being affected by criminal activity in British Columbia. When we received, last week, the review from the expert panel and the final iteration of Mr. German's second report, it became abundantly clear to us that the depth and the magnitude of money laundering in British Columbia was far worse than we imagined when we were first sworn in. And that's why we established the public inquiry today.

JD: The Premier of British Columbia John Horgan, announcing a public inquiry into money laundering in that province today. The final report by the inquiry will be delivered by May 2021.

[Music: Ambient]

Meth First Nation

Guest: Clifford Bird

JD: Four years ago, residents of the Montreal Lake Cree Nation were evacuated from their homes, as wildfires raged around them. Members of the community, located about 100 kilometres north of Prince Albert in Saskatchewan, spent six weeks at evacuation centres in nearby cities, before returning home. They didn't return empty-handed. Clifford Bird is the director of health with the First Nation, which he says is facing a crystal meth crisis — one that originated with that evacuation. We reached Mr. Bird in Montreal Lake Cree Nation, Saskatchewan.

GF: Mr. Bird, when did you first realize that your community was struggling with crystal meth?

CLIFFORD BIRD: We first began to see the problem arise in our community shortly after the fire evacuation of 2015. During the displacement, many families had become separated at evacuation centres. And during that time, a lot of our young people got introduced to crystal meth. And within six months of returning home, we were able to count 110 crystal meth users at that time.

GF: And prior to the evacuation was crystal meth an issue in your community?

CB: I want to say that prior to 2015 crystal meth was a non-issue. I think there was maybe a handful of users, but it didn't get anybody's interest, and people were not thinking that it was a problem.

GF: So this is something that was really they were introduced to in the cities and brought home?

CB: Yes.

GF: So you say 110 users in a very short space of time. What is your estimate of how many are using today?

CB: Because we work so closely with these people, we saw those numbers begin to spike. And then as of recently, we have 600 crystal meth users, 400 individuals that are addicted to crystal meth that live on reserve on a regular basis, and the 200 are what may be termed as couch surfers because they have no regular home. And they are quite transient between their families that live on reserve, and then from time to time they'll spend quite a bit of time off reserve of as well.

GF: And what is the size of Montreal Lake?

CB: The size of the community is these are the ones that have the home, and those have been counted as being on reserve. There are 1,200 of them. The total band membership is over 4,000.

GF: So that's a huge proportion.

CB: Mm hmm.

GF: You talked about young people. Is it only young people? It can't be if we're dealing with numbers like that.

CB: The youngest user recorded so far is 12 years old.

GF: Twelve!

CB: And the oldest documented user currently is 52 years old. Now, those are real current numbers.

GF: And now that they're back in the community, how are they getting access to the crystal meth? How is it coming in?

CB: Crystal meth comes mostly from Prince Albert. And they are able to call their supplier, the supplier comes in, and the dealers are able to get restocked, If I can say. And users within an hour can have their drug in hand.

GF: So it's available, and it's cheap comparatively, isn't it?

CB: It's very cheap, yeah.

GF: So what has been the effect of all of this on the Montreal Lake Cree Nation?

CB: Well, we're seeing the negative effects mentally, physically, spiritually, you name it. Physically, we're seeing people… we're seeing one in four patients that are seen by the staff on a daily basis that self-disclose about using crystal meth. These are the ones that come through the clinic. After long-term usage, chronic usage, we're seeing medical conditions such as diabetes. Because in relation to diabetes, they're not taking their diabetic medications because they're on crystal meth, and so it affects their heart. And they have a heart attack. And people say well, he just died of a heart attack. No, it's as a result of the crystal meth addiction.

GF: And what about the other kinds of things that we know are associated with addiction like crime, increase in levels of crime, increase in levels of depression, I don't know if suicide is a is a problem for you in your community?

CB: Well, the physical health conditions are horrific enough by themselves. Some of the sexual health is people don't take care of themselves. We're seeing HIV, STIs, all of those rates are beginning to rise. Mental health wise, three years ago, I led a team of crisis responders — Crisis Response Team — and mostly, we dealt with suicide attempts. And in that three years ago, we had over 220 suicide attempts in that one year.

GF: Wow!

CB: And so we were beginning to see after a few usages of crystal meth, you begin to obsess about ending your life.

GF: You are the director of health for your community. I'm sure this takes a toll on you too. What is it like for you to watch this?

CB: Yes, a lot of times these are your own people, your own family members, extended family members. So it does take a personal toll. However, that's what drives, that's what fuels you. You'll do what you can to help.

GF: I don't know much about crystal meth, but I have been told that it is a very difficult addiction to break. Are you confident that that you will get through this?

CB: You know, the chronic use that quickly leads to the drug-induced psychosis, the schizophrenic, paranoia, those types of things. When you take a look at that and some of the neurological damage that crystal meth has, we have some folks that are not beyond help, but it's they can't cognitively carry an adult conversation anymore. So you see that part. And then you see individuals that have come off the drugs. And that gives you hope. And that gives you hope that they have a desire to. And the individuals that come in almost on a daily basis saying I want off this drug.

GF: Thank you so much for telling us about it today. Bye-bye.

CB: Okay, bye.

JD: Clifford Bird is the health director of Montreal Lake Cree Nation in Saskatchewan.

[Music: Sombre]

Queen’s Park order

JD: People often decry the lack of civility by politicians in their legislatures. And there's good reason for that. Today, the speaker at Queen's Park in Ontario was crying "order." A lot. Over the course of Question Period, Speaker Ted Arnott had to stand and call for order twelve times — eleven of them because of shouting from members of Tory Premier Doug Ford's government. CBC reporter Philippe de Montigny compiled the calls for order in a video. Here's what it sounded like:

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: A montage of the speaker calling order]

JD: The speaker of the Ontario legislature calling for order twelve times during today's Question Period — that’s from a video by our CBC colleague Philippe de Montigny.

[Music: Jazz]

Niqab attack

JD: Fatima Ahmad is used to being hassled for wearing her niqab. But she was still shocked by what happened to her outside a Montreal subway station earlier this week. A man physically assaulted her. And she believes it was because of her face covering. Now, the Montreal police are investigating the incident as a possible hate crime. Fatima Ahmad spoke to CBC Montreal host Sue Smith about what happened to her. Here's part of their conversation.

SOUNDCLIP

FATIMA AHMAD: There was a man who came towards me. He took his hand, and he hit my chest. And then he pulled my niqab. So at that moment, I was shocked. And I tried to take my phone. He ran away to the other road. And I ran after him. A car almost hit him. So then he kind of froze. And I ran back towards him. And then he was looking at me, and I took a video and a picture of him.

SUE SMITH: And how did he react when you started to chase him?

FA: Yeah, he wasn't expecting it. He was just continued to walk, but he kind of thought that I would just let it go or something.

SS: Why did you do that? I mean that's pretty brave or crazy.

FA: Mm hmm. So I don't want this to happen again to any other woman in general. And if I just let it go, then I know that he will gain more courage maybe. And to me, physical abuse or assault is not acceptable. And so at that instance, I my first reaction is like I have to get a picture of this person.

SS: What do you think about the fact that they say that it's a possible hate crime?

FA: Well, it is definitely a hate crime because he hit my chest and pulled my niqab. I don't know what other possible reason he would do that. And personally, I have experience so many Islamophobic incidents that this is not surprising. Like it's surprising the way it was physical, but so surprising that this would eventually happen.

SS: Tell me what has happened to you.

FA: So generally speaking, this is the second time that someone tried to pull my niqab. Other than that, on a daily basis, people are always commenting on my niqab. Most of the times people are cursing or telling me you know this is Quebec, go back to your country. We’re not in Saudi Arab. Just so many things. Most of the time I don’t even listen to what they're saying. So these are events that I am facing on a daily basis. And with Bill-21, I'm seeing that the people who are doing this is not only increasing, but the types of people who are doing this. What I mean by that is now it's men and women showing this like old and young, white and black, now everybody. Before this was I only saw this from, generally speaking, older white men. But this now it's a different picture.

SS: And why do you think that is? Why do you think there are more people doing it?

FA: I think because of Bill-21. It's giving a lot of people more courage and confidence in acting in their ignorance. And so they think it's acceptable to act upon their opinions.

JD: Fatima Ahmad speaking to Sue Smith, who is host of CBC Montreal's "Homerun".

[Music: Sad piano]

Nigeria children freed

Guest: Mubarak Yusuf

JD: Since 2013, in north-eastern Nigeria, a local militia called the Civilian Joint Task Force has been fighting against Boko Haram insurgents. They have a lot of support in local communities. Sadly, like Boko Haram, they've also recruited and used children — some as young as 11 years old. Last week, the group released nearly 900 children from its ranks — and has committed to stop recruiting children. Mubarak Yusuf is a Deputy Child Protection Manager with the organization Search For Common Ground. He works with children released from the Civilian Joint Task Force, to help them reintegrate into society. We reached Mr. Yusuf in Maiduguri, Nigeria.

GF: Mr. Yusuf, what is the civilian Joint Task Force?

MUBARAK YUSUF: The civilians Joint Task Force is a body of community persons that came together with the objective of protecting the community against attacks from the Boko Haram insurgency in the Northeast of Nigeria.

GF: Certainly, we know about Boko Haram. And we've done stories about Boko Haram over the years about how they have used children in particular, abducted children, kidnapped children, pressed them into military activities. How is this group's use of children different than that?

MY: The difference is that for the Civilian Joint Task Force, they have been seen as part of the community. So because communities celebrate individuals associated with the Civilian Joint Taskforce as heroes, irrespective of the age. And they have been credited for bringing back some stability and safety back to Maiduguri.

GF: So the children the children who are participating, they have volunteered to do this work? They've not been pressed into service.

MY: Yes, they all volunteered. So at some point, man, woman, youth, children all got into the movement voluntarily in a bid to protect their community against the Boko Haram insurgency.

GF: And how does the task force use children then? What do they do with them?

MY: They mainly use them for intelligence related reports, night battles, sometimes also they use them for crowd control. Some of them they also participated in the combat.

GF: So there were children in combat that were involved in the fighting?

MY: Yeah.

GF: So a decision was then made by the task force at some point that they would release these children. That they would no longer use them in their activities. If you take a child that has been involved in those kinds of activities, has seen I am sure terrible, terrible things, how do you go about reintegrating them back into a normal life?

MY: We work with them in trying to provide socioeconomic support. So for the children that are 15 and below, we return them back to school to continue their education, which may have been disrupted as a result of the conflict. And then for children that are 15 and above, they invited to participate in the enterprise activities. We pair them up with mentors in their communities to learn skills that are readily available in the market.

GF: I'm sure it's more complicated than simply getting them back into school. These are children that have seen great trauma, I'm guessing. What kinds of stories do they tell you about their experiences?

MY: So for trauma particularly, some stories that were quite impactful where they partake in the killings of some of these Boko Haram. They heven partaking in parading some of the bodies of the Boko Haram.

GF: Parading the bodies?

MY: Yeah, you know after the killings, they drag them to a particular space or location.

GF: What did the children tell you about doing that and how they felt about it?

MY: Yeah, so when they were doing that at that time, they felt they were fine doing that and it's okay doing that. But then the effect on that on the children is that when they go back home and they sleep at night, it gives them nightmares. Some of this will haunt them. And they get very scared. When we were discussing with them, they didn’t relate that to maybe being involved in the killings. But then the trauma is we now understand where some of those effects are coming from psychologically.

GF: Mmm hmmm. It must be very difficult because as you said, on the one hand, they are considered heroes in their community. They are defending their community against Boko Haram. And yet, on the other hand, they are seeing and doing such awful things. How does a child manage to compute that?

MY: So the objective of our trauma healing special needs to raise awareness so that these children can better understand trauma and then it’s psychological symptoms. So we focus on teaching them practical tools and techniques for them to overcome trauma in a transformative manner where we have the breathing techniques, the yoga techniques, different forms of art therapy so that they can manage these physiological manifestations.

GF: Do you find that it's working?

MY: Yeah. So a lot of feedback we get from these children is that now they fell they can manage all of those stress. They can manage the pain. So yeah, it's working.

GF: And what about the community? Because you're also having to change attitudes on the part of the community. They were the ones that encouraged these children to go and to participate in this way. Do you feel that the community's attitude to this is changing as well?

MY: So I think this is the most interesting part of a central common ground. One is we have transformative dialogue sessions. We bring these children into their room, and we bring some key stakeholders and parents in their communities where we hold dialogue sessions. So when these parents now hear some of these traumatic experiences from these children, they break into tears, and then we understand some of these issues that are associated with the children being integrated. So for the key stakeholders involved like the religious leaders when they go back to the mosque, they preach about all of these things. And we've had a lot of positive feedback from communities how this awareness has really worked in terms of transforming how they really think and shift in attitude towards children participation.

GF: All right. Well, thank you so much for telling us about your efforts today.

MY: Thank you very much.

GF: Bye-bye.

JD: Mubarak Yusuf is a deputy child protection manager with the organization Search For Common Ground. We reached Mr. Yusuf in Maiduguri, Nigeria.

[Music: Ambient]

Marathon training

JD: For months now, students at Pleasant Bay School in Cape Breton have been training for a race. In June, they'll be running their own version of the Blue Nose Marathon — 4-point-2 kilometers, instead of 42-point-2. But the school is small. It has only eight students. There's no track to train on — and they couldn't run outside, in the winter. So, they came up with a unique solution to get ready for the run. Holly Conners at CBC Nova Scotia spoke with some of the students this week.

SOUNDCLIP

STUDENT ONE: What we do is we run back and forth in our basement 111 times. And sometimes, we do two kilometres instead — which is 222 times. We divided nine by a thousand. We used long division and divided nine by a thousand. Nine because our basement is nine metres long, and we divided it by a thousand because there's a thousand metres and a kilometre.

HOLLY CONNERS: So what's it like to run back and forth 111 or 222 times?

STUDENT TWO: It's kinda exhausting.

STUDENT THREE: And you have to do stretches at the end.

STUDENT FOUR: It doesn't seem like much, but if you when you go back and forth in a basement that not that long, it feels really hard and long to do.

HC: It makes it feel longer?

STUDENT FOUR: Yes. Yesterday when we were running, we went to the church and back. And it felt way easier than doing it in the basement.

STUDENT TWO: And it wasn't as tiring as going back and forth, and it felt so much better to be just running in a straight line than going back and forth back and forth.

HC: What do you enjoy about running?

STUDENT TWO: Well, you get to exercise. And it's a new experience to run and go in races.

STUDENT THREE: That your legs get worked up, and you get muscles in your legs.

STUDENT ONE: What I like about running is that you can go past your limits, and you can keep going faster and faster. So try it out because it is very fun to do. And at the end of it, you’ll Feel pretty proud of it.

JD: Students Lydia Fraser, Danielle MacKinnon, Aaron Fraser and Tyson MacIsaac, from Pleasant Bay School in Cape Breton. They've been training for their own version of the Blue Nose Marathon by running laps in their school basement. They spoke with CBC Nova Scotia this week.

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May 15, 2019 episode transcript

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