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The AIH Transcript for May 8, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Failing to make a federal case out of it. Federal prosecutors decide they don't want to prosecute Vice Admiral Mark Norman for breach of trust and so they stay the charges.

JD: Flight risked. She's been found innocent of blasphemy and now she's in Canada where she's supposed to be safe -- but our guest warns that Pakistan's Asia Bibi may still face threats to her safety.

CO: Fits and starts. A union rep says he's hoping for a new beginning after General Motors announces a plan that could save a fraction of the jobs at its plant in Oshawa.

JD: Name of Thrones. He is seventh in line to be the King of England, Head of the Commonwealth, and Defender of the Faith -- and Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have named him...Archie.

CO: By fair means or fowl. Icelandic police were not fazed when the perpetrator took flight -- because the wallet-stealing thief was a seagull that they found then brought to justice.

JD: And slip of the young. An orchestra in Boston searches for the boy who was recorded breaking the traditional post-Mozart silence, with an audience-chanting expression of WOW! As It Happens. The Wednesday Edition. Radio that knows an exult classic when it hears one.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Mark Norman case

Mark Norman case

Guest: David Pugliese

JD: Vice Admiral Mark Norman walked away from an Ottawa courthouse this morning with a tremendous weight lifted from him. The Crown stayed the charge of breach of trust against him -- ending a two year ordeal for the vice admiral. The reason -- new information that convinced prosecutors he would not be convicted. The Canadian military's former number two officer had been accused of leaking Cabinet secrets about a multi-million dollar shipbuilding deal. After the stay, Vice Admiral Norman said he felt exonerated.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK NORMAN: One of the hardest parts on an emotional level -- although it was inspiring -- was to receive letters and donations from World War Two veterans -- giving me five dollars to help my legal fees. At the other end of the spectrum -- you know the hardest part is watching my family have to live with this on a day-to-day basis.

JD: Vice Admiral Mark Norman speaking to reporters in Ottawa earlier today. David Pugliese has been covering this story for The Ottawa Citizen. We reached him earlier today in Victoria, British Columbia.

CO: David what does this stay actually mean for Vice Admiral Mark Norman?

DAVID PUGLIESE: Well it means that the legal cloud that he's been under for more than two years has been removed. And he has said he wants to go back to his job. And it appears that's what's going to be happening.

CO: And so this means he would just go right back and sit at the same desk and carry on as though nothing happened?

DP: Well we're waiting to hear what the Chief of Defence Staff, General John Vance, has to say about that. But Admiral Norman has suggested that he should go back as vice chief of the Defence Staff.

CO: What was Vice Admiral Norman accused of doing?

DP: So he was accused of leaking sensitive information to Davie Shipbuilding which was in the process of converting a commercial vessel into a naval supply ship. That had started under the Conservatives. When the Liberals came in in the fall of 2015, they tried to derail that project -- and Norman was accused of leaking that information to Davie as well as to a CBC reporter.

CO: And so that amounted to a breach of trust charge? A single charge of breach of trust, right?

DP: That's correct yes.

CO: And now we just want to hear the Crown Prosecutor Barbara Mercier. She was speaking outside the court this morning about why they decided to stay that one charge. Let's just listen to what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

BARBARA MERCIER: I can tell you there was no political interference in this case. The Department of Public Prosecutions decided to lay the charge, and they decided today -- we decided alone, no political interference whatsoever -- that we couldn't make the charge.

REPORTER: Did the government not give you exculpatory evidence before you prosecuted? Who withheld that information from you?

BARBARA MERCIER: There's no such thing as this one piece of exculpatory evidence in a case like this. It's a complex breach of trust.

REPORTER: How did you not have it?

BARBARA MERCIER: We did have it eventually.

REPORTER: Did you not have the resources to fine it?

BARBARA MERCIER: Thank you.

CO: Okay so there's a lot to unpack in that very short clip. But first of all why would she want to tell reporters and the world that there was no political interference -- what's behind that?

DP: So there's been a lot of suggestions -- in court as well from Norman's defense team -- that there has been political interference both from the prime minister's office and from the Privy Council Office. So that's been a major theme from his defense team, and they've been pushing that in various pre-trial hearings.

CO: And so this is important because of course it reflects on SNC-Lavalin -- and people...that's what's in their minds when they think well 'is this the same movie over again.' Right?

DP: For sure. And she's distancing herself from that because it was looking bad for the public prosecution service which is supposed to be you know apolitical. So that's where she's trying to position that.

CO: What she also says is that she didn't -- (reporters) they're asking: why didn't you have the evidence before when you charged him? Well we did have it eventually -- what does that mean?

DP: So what she's referring to is there has been some kind of mystery evidence that has materialized in the last little while that has been provided to her from the defense team as well as from third party documents. These are the documents that the government was collecting. So she and her prosecutors have seen something that made them realize that they don't stand a chance to get a conviction in court. She's not saying, Norman's people aren't saying...so you know that's the big mystery.

CO: All right. There's another layer to this which is that Vice Admiral Norman's lawyer was Marie Henein who people remember mounted an aggressive and successful defense of Jian Ghomeshi -- who became quite famous for that. Did she bring that same determination to the case of Admiral Norman?

DP: I think so. I mean she's very expensive to hire but you're getting what you see happened here. She methodically took apart the Crown's case. And she just moved slowly but very effectively in introducing various pieces of evidence, various documents, and in the initial cross-examination of some of the individuals like Chief of Defence Staff John Vance.

CO: I just want to play a bit more of what Vice Admiral Norman had to say today about his own conduct.

SOUNDCLIP

MARK NORMAN: Many of you cover defense procurement -- it is a very complicated, obtuse, and ultimately ugly process. And what goes on inside that process is difficult to explain at the best of times. And so I am confident that at all times I acted with integrity, I acted ethically, and I acted in the best interest of the Royal Canadian Navy, The Canadian Forces, and ultimately the people of Canada.

JD: So was he completely exonerated -- is that what he's saying...because we know the prosecution says his actions were inappropriate and secretive but didn't amount to any crime?

DP: Yeah. I mean if you take a look at his email exchanges, I mean there was some salty language and some rather blunt talk about government officials and you know certain members of industry. But that's not criminal. So you know he's right -- defense procurement...it's very complicated. And you know I'm sure if someone looked at our emails or listened to our phone calls you'd be saying some things that would raise eyebrows too so that's essentially what happened here. You know the RCMP was able to gather all his emails and exchanges and take a look at those and you know sometimes they were perhaps less unprofessional but there was never any smoking gun against Norman where he said in an email: here is that secret document you asked for.

CO: Just very quickly what is the fallout for the Liberals given there's a fall election and given that there were members of the cabinet -- I'm thinking of Scott Brison and Andrew Leslie who were involved in this. What fallout is there for Justin Trudeau and his Liberals?

DP: Well I would imagine that since you're seeing this now -- well before the election -- it could be you know on the back burner. If you know they had gone into a trial in August right before an election or in the middle of an election campaign, then it would have been front and centre. But you know at times the public isn't always paying attention to what isn't directly in front of them. Or you know in May -- well an election you know comes sometime before October so maybe in the rear-view mirror.

CO: We'll leave it there. David thank you.

DP: Thank you.

JD: David Pugliese covers the military for The Ottawa Citizen. We reached him earlier today in Victoria, British Columbia. And late today, Chief of Defence Staff General Jonathan Vance issued this statement: "We have missed Vice Admiral Norman a great deal and I look forward to welcoming him back to work as soon as possible." And here is the Vice Admiral's lawyer, Marie Henein, speaking to reporters about what Canadians should take away from this case.

SOUNDCLIP

MARIE HENEIN: I think they should be concerned when there are attempts to bring the political into a criminal courtroom. And I think they should feel very proud and very happy today because what they saw is that our justice system is truly unassailable. The prosecutors in a high profile case looked at the evidence and did what they're supposed to do. They said we don't have a reasonable prospect of conviction. The DPP acted independently. If it tells you anything, it tells you that when she thinks you should prosecute she goes ahead and when she thinks you shouldn't she declines to do so. That's the way it should be. No person in this country should ever walk into a courtroom and feel like they are fighting their elected government or any sort of political factors at all. So this was a good day. You should be very concerned when anyone tries to erode the resilience of the justice system or demonstrates a failure to understand why it is so fundamental to the democratic values that we hold so dear. There are times you agree with what happens in a court. There are times you don't. And that's fine. But what you don't do is you don't put your finger and try to weigh in on the scales of justice. That is not what should be happening. And so I think we have lots of lessons to learn from this and other cases. And I know Canadians are paying close attention.

JD: That was Marie Henein -- lawyer for Vice Admiral Mark Norman -- speaking today.

[Music]

Asia Bibi

Guest: Wilson Chowdhry

JD: Asia Bibi is finally free. Freedom however has been a difficult word to apply to the Pakistani Christian woman's case. Ms. Bibi sat on death row for nearly a decade in Pakistan before the country's supreme court acquitted her on blasphemy charges last fall. In January, she was told she was free to leave the country but found herself confined to a safe house in Islamabad as mobs threatened her life. Now advocates for Asia Bibi say she is out of Pakistan and in Canada along with her family. Global Affairs Canada has offered no comment on the case. Wilson Chowdhry is the chairman of the Britain Pakistani Christian Association -- and has been in contact with the family. We reached Mr. Chowdhry in London, U.K.

CO: Mr. Chowdhry after months of false hopes and false starts did you ever have doubts that Asia Bibi would ever be free?

WILSON CHOWDHRY: Two years ago I would have had doubts but as things started transpiring in a manner that was always going to end up productive for Asia Bibi -- the governments across the globe, the western nations, were placing more pressure on Pakistan -- taking away funding such as America who suspended funding with Pakistan. Britain threatened to remove their foreign aid budget. All of this together made me fairly sure that Pakistan would be forced to free Asia Bibi. The delays obviously have been a real pain in the neck. And I think to myself that this is a real [inaudible] show by the Pakistani military.

CO: She is free and is in Canada. But how much liberty does she have at this point to speak, to move -- I mean how free is she really?

WC: Well Asia Bibi will always be in danger. There are extremists in every western nation -- and Canada isn't free from their own extremists. However it is much safer than being in Pakistan, and Asia Bibi knows this. Her poster has been emblazoned across the country. If you go to riots you'll see images of Asia Bibi being hung with a noose around her neck. She's a very recognized individual. She had to flee that country. It was untenable for her to remain. And I know that Asia and her husband are extremely pleased that they are now in a country where their security of freedom will be protected.

CO: You are confident that she would be freed. But why was she stuck in Islamabad for these past months after the Supreme Court had acquitted her? Why was she still there?

WC: The military leaders in Pakistan have been frightened that Asia Bibi will speak openly about her treatment in Pakistan which would bring a lot of inspection on how Pakistan has treated her and other minorities. They put blocks and delays on Asia Bibi leaving -- hoping to have an agreement in place that prevented her from speaking out after leaving.

CO: Yeah I know you have been in communication with her husband, Ashiq, and you've just been staying with the family. Can you tell us how Asia Bibi is? How is her health -- her physical and mental state at this point after all she's been through?

WC: We're very aware that she has been incarcerated in isolation so solitary confinement for eight years of her nine and a half year tenure. Now this woman is really at her wits end. She's really suffered a lot and her mental state is depressed if not worse. I mean we had an officer in Pakistan who visited with a prison ministry was unable to meet her but spoke to wardens and cleaners who were Christian and they all indicated that symptoms that would suggest that Asia Bibi has severe depression or is suffering from dementia. And you know this is a really deep concern. She will need care and attention and you know Canada is a western nation -- it is the place where she can receive the appropriate technical support she needs.

CO: Can you tell us what you know about what conditions she was held in?

WC: She was incarcerated in a dingy cell -- was given the opportunity to see sunlight for two hours every month. And you can imagine that that is debilitating for even the strongest person. And this is a mother who was kept away from her children during that whole incarceration. Asia Bibi has had to cook her own food. There have been attempt-after-attempt to poison her. She'd been beaten by other inmates. She suffered significant torture -- mentally and physically. And you know we really need to pray that she has the strength to pull through this and live a proper family life. Don't forget she's been kept away from other family members for so long. We don't know how well she will interact when placed back into that family environment.

CO: Who will she be reunited with here in Canada?

WC: Asia Bibi two daughters traveled to Canada in December. Now they've been awaiting the release of Asia Bibi and Ashiq Masih -- their mother and father -- and will be united soon. Or when they are united, I can imagine it being a very tender moment.

CO: Just back in Pakistan -- what is the reaction in the country to the news that she has left and she is now in Canada?

WC: So far so good. There hasn't been the mass riots that we experienced after the Supreme Court hearing. However there's reasons for that -- 3500 leaders from extremist groups including leaders of Tehreek-e-Labbaik and Tehrik-i-Taliban have all been arrested and are still currently detained in Pakistani prisons. This has led to a more mute response to protests. This being said we still don't know what the overall reaction will be. It takes time to build a significant riot. I believe the litmus test will be on Friday -- once the mosques are back in operation. That could lead to the same scale of mass riots as we saw after the Supreme Court acquittal. We will all have to wait and see and pray that the government is able to cope with anything that may arise.

CO: We will leave it there Mr. Chowdhry. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

WC: Thank you.

JD: Wilson Chowdhry is the chairman of the Britain Pakistani Christian Association. We reached him in London.

[Music]

Classical music "Wow"

Guest: David Snead

JD: Exuberant vocalizations are usually considered ill-mannered in the world of classical music. But last weekend, at Boston's Symphony Hall, a young child's reaction to the performance of a piece by Mozart had everyone in the hall thoroughly charmed. And now there is a search on to find the expressive youngster. David Snead is the CEO of the Handel and Haydn Society -- the orchestra which was playing. We reached Mr. Snead in Boston.

CO: David just set the scene for us last Sunday afternoon.

DAVID SNEAD: Sure. Well it was the final concert of our season at Symphony Hall in Boston. We were doing the Mozart Requiem. The concert had been sold out long in advance so there was a lot of excitement about it. The concert started off with kind of a somber opening piece by Mozart called the Masonic Funeral Music. And so the place is packed, the lights go down, and this kind of somber contemplative opener begins being conducted by our artistic director Henry Christophers. The piece ends with this kind of swell of a major chord, and the strings, and it kind of fades away to nothing. And Harry is holding -- he is finished conducting and he's holding his pose up in the air for the audience to kind of just have a couple of moments of silence.

CO: And we've seen that. We know that that's the convention -- that you finish the piece and there's that moment of silence and then the applause. What happened?

DS: So people are in the moment you know. And then kind of out of nowhere -- somewhere above me and behind me -- this little boy says "Wow!" with such joy and enthusiasm and people just broke up because it was expressing everything that they were feeling but it took a little boy to kind of capture the moment and say that.

CO: And of course there is a recording of that moment. So let's have a listen to that.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Mozart's "Masonic Funeral Music"]

[Boy says wow]

[Audience laughs and applauds]

CO: I'm getting goose bumps. So I can just imagine what that was like. Wow!

DS: The person sitting next to me you know said that's great -- classical music is alive and living for the next generation. And then we were talking as we were laughing and he said you know I wish there was a recording of that. And I looked up and there's microphones on stage recording this concert for radio broadcasts in the future. And there we have the recording.

CO: And for you what was that moment like?

DS: It was joyous. You know to hear a young voice like that -- a young boy -- so enthralled with this music to express it, you know he couldn't hold back. It really made me feel like this is what we're all about. This is what we do to people. This is why we exist. It sums up a lot in that one "wow."

CO: So you are trying to find this kid. You put out a call. Why do you want to locate him?

DS: Well we want to talk to him about the experience. We want to thank him personally. We want to make sure he has a recording of the moment. And we want to introduce him to the conductor Harry Christophers. Harry would like to speak with him and invite him back for another concert.

CO: And so any leads so far?

DS: No. No response as of yet. But we're hoping.

CO: Do you even know if it's a boy?

DS: It sure sounded like a boy. When I sent out the email to the audience -- well you heard the recording -- several people responded saying that they thought it was a boy.

CO: Of course what's interesting is that it's the piece of music -- I mean it's not like the 1812 Overture or the end of Ode to Joy or something that just ends in a way that a kid would say wow. What does that tell you about what you're doing with classical music that has that effect? That this simple piece of music has that effect on a child.

DS: Well I think it's telling me that what we do really matters and really connects with people -- you know regardless of age or any education about music or whether you're an aficionado or a first timer -- this is how we can move people. And I think that everyone kind of felt what he said. But because we were grownups you know and we're used to just holding back -- we didn't say it like he did.

CO: When was the last time you were wowed by a piece of music?

DS: [Laughs] Well frankly H&H (Handel and Haydn Society) is a pretty great organization and I'm wowed regularly, but I don't shout it out like he did.

CO: H&H being Handel and Haydn Society. And you say it was recorded for broadcast by WCRB FM and so that's going to be there. That's embedded forever. For anyone who listens forever that's going to be part of that recording, isn't it?

DS: That's right. And we hope to be able to give that whole recording to that wonderful child and his family.

CO: Okay. David it's good to talk to you. Thanks.

DS: Thank you very much.

JD: David Snead is the CEO of the Handel and Haydn Society. We reached him in Boston.

[Music]

Gull-prit

JD: Steel yourselves listeners. It's time for the true crime portion of this program. This comes straight from the police blotter in Sournes, Iceland -- and it features a perpetrator fowl enough to give the flocks of Nordic crime fans a flight. The police report begins innocently enough, quote, "officers on patrol last night noticed a seagull that flew in front of their vehicle. The officers initially thought the seagull had an animal in its beak but on closer inspection it was determined to be a wallet. Police initiated pursuit." Now to be clear that is officers -- plural. And they must have been winging down the shore because the blotter goes on to say, quote, "police apprehended it when it landed to inspect the loot." And then to truly put a feather in their cap, the officers managed to track down the victim of their plumed pillager. So let's take a moment to honour these flight-footed cops with a nod to the ambition of the gull-prit they caught.

[Music]

Part 2: Georgia senator speaks out against restrictive 'heartbeat' anti-abortion bill

Unifor-GMA

Guest: Jim McAuliffe

JD: There is a glimmer of hope for autoworkers in Oshawa, Ontario, today. After announcing last year it would close its assembly plant in Oshawa, GM now says it has another plan. It will invest 170 million dollars and hire back some of the affected workers. The company says the Oshawa facility will now do stamping, sub assembly, and autonomous vehicle testing. There is a catch though -- the move is expected to save only 300 of the 2600 union jobs currently at the auto plant. Jim McAuliffe works at the Oshawa GM plant and that's where we reached him.

CO: Mr. McAuliffe what was your reaction when you heard the announcement that at least some jobs at your plant will be saved?

JIM MCAULIFFE: Well I mean it's certainly better than the announcement we had last November. You know that felt more like a kick in the gut. So this is you know a little bit a ray of hope -- definitely a positive step in the right direction and hopefully you know like Jerry Dias said that it leads to more work.

CO: All right. But 2500 jobs lost and well 300 returned. So it is a big difference, isn't it?

JM: Oh it's a huge difference. But you know last time I checked 300 is better than zero. I mean there's different people in different situations. So it's going to affect these people in varying degrees. You know myself I've got over 34 years -- I am only 52 but I am retirement eligible so I mean there's probably good news there for me to definitely take a step back and retire. And you know they'll be obviously some people that will be retained at work and they'll be happy -- you know different kind of work but you know once again the membership here you know will do whatever is asked of them and they'll make the adjustment. And there's a lot of people that won't be retained -- and those are the people that I think we should be most worried about.

CO: You mentioned Jerry Dias who is the head of Unifor just in case people don't know that. But do you think this is the best deal the union could get from GM? I mean we heard from Jerry Dias when the announcement was first made of the closure that he was going to go elbows out, he was going to fight for all the jobs to come back. So couldn't it be better than this given the fact that GM is going to be making cars?

JM: Do I think it could be better? He did allude to the fact that: is he happy? Is he completely satisfied? No. In a perfect world not only do we retain all the work but we go into a hiring mode. But we're not there. That's not the reality of it. I mean there's just too many different variables working against us -- the Canadian dollar works for us. But I don't think free trade works for us. It's free trade. I don't really think it's fair trade. You know they can build these vehicles cheaper in Mexico. You know Mexicans build 950,000 vehicles and they buy maybe 200,000. Like you know in Canada if we built 350,000 vehicles we buy 350,000 vehicles. There's something wrong with that.

CO: But on that subject. The reason why GM says it's closing the Oshawa plant is that it's transitioning to the future which it says is electric cars. Why didn't Oshawa get a piece of that?

JM: You know I mean I can't speak to that really to be totally honest with you. I mean we've proven this workforce here is second to none. And these people have proven time and time again that they can do whatever is asked of them. So those are good questions. There's a lot of different levels of people that need to be sitting at the table -- not just General Motors, not just Unifor, but all levels of government -- provincially, federally. The automotive sector has been in a decline since the expiration of the auto pact. So let's address that issue.

CO: But at the same time that they cut the 2500 jobs at the plant in Oshawa -- GM opened up Canadian technology centre, they've hired about 500 people. There's about a thousand people that will be working in that place -- and Canadians -- by 2020. So what are you doing -- what's the union doing to prepare people, prepare your members to try and get the kinds of new jobs that might be on the development side of the...

JM: Well I think that's something we'll find out tomorrow. There was definitely a lot that wasn't mentioned in that press conference. And you know it needs to be given to the membership first and foremost tomorrow. Rest assure that Unifor has been working at this hard since the announcement in November. You know again the announcements tomorrow are going to you know affect different people in different varying degrees. The retirement eligible to the people that still need 10 or 15 years to retire to the people that have just been recently hired and what future do they hold. Yeah you know what, I've already moved once. I started in the Windsor facilities and I came up here in 2004. But you know lucky for me in 2004 when I needed to go to another plant because it looked like -- and my plan ended up closing, I had a place to go to. So you know you'll see some of that too maybe you'll see some incentives going to the other plants to the senior members in St. Catharines, Woodstock. But you know the younger members you know maybe it's time to take a look at okay -- you know it's one thing to go to school and 'oh yeah I'm going to take this' and then you get out of school and you can't find work. So maybe we'll get our members the kind of training and the schooling that they need and yeah. You know you'll see some of these people get put back to work -- still working for General Motors but at a much different level.

CO: Just finally, what's the mood? What's the situation for people in Oshawa? Because this was a big cut to the employment in that town. What's it been like?

JM: I mean it was a definite kick in the teeth last November. People weren't happy. You know I mean nobody wants to be told they're losing their job. These are good paying jobs with good benefits -- good pensions. Nobody wants to be told that that's all being taken away. You know people have bills to pay. People have mouths to feed. People have kids put through school, so on and so forth. There's a little ray of hope. Like you said 300 jobs -- I don't think they're going to sugar coat this. 300 seems to be the number that we're starting with. People need to know -- I think there's been a long waiting game, gone through a bunch of different emotions from shock and dismay to anger. And now people just want to know: what's my next step? Like Jerry said -- you know I thought he made a great analogy -- he said we've done the best with the hand we were dealt with. And if you're a poker player and you play Texas hold'em it looked like they were dealt deuce seven offsuit which is the absolute worst starting hand in the game of poker and they've come away with something which is better than nothing.

CO: Okay. I'm not sure -- I'll have to go away and sort that one out in my head. But meanwhile Mr. McAuliffe thanks so much for speaking with us.

JM: Okay. Thank you.

JD: We reached GM autoworker Jim McAuliffe in Oshawa, Ontario.

[Music]

Klever Freire

JD: They answered the call of duty. Even though it was very, very wet. During a severe rainstorm in Toronto last August, Klever Freire and a co-worker found themselves trapped in an elevator as water came gushing in. The pair made it out thanks to two police officers who swam to the rescue and jimmied the elevator door open with a crowbar. And yesterday, those constables -- Josh McSweeney and Ryan Barnett -- were named Police Officers of the Year by the Toronto Region Board of Trade. Last August, Mr. Freire spoke to As It Happens guest host Matt Galloway about the dramatic event and rescue. Here's part of that conversation from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

KF: We did not realize how flooded the basement had become. All of the cars had already been submerged by the time that we took the elevator down.

MG: So you smashed through you smashed through a part of the top of the elevator?

KF: Yeah, so we didn't actually smash through. We were just able to open it up a crack by literally pounding it with our fists. And then we were able to get a stable signal with emergency. And we got somebody on the line and let them know how serious the situation was.

MG: What did you tell them?

KF: I think I'm probably going to have a hard time coming across with the urgency in my voice that I had at the moment, but we're afraid that we're going to die. We're not going to make it through. The water is continuing to come in. We're stuck on the elevator at the basement level.

MG: How much space was there at that point between the water level and the ceiling of the elevator?

KF: The water was at our chins, but we were actually standing on the banister rails on the elevator at the ceiling — like our heads were at the ceiling.

MG: Oh my goodness! Describe what happened when somebody came to get you?

KF: That moment, I don't remember having any verbalized thoughts. It was just I was able to get out of survival mode for a second and just let someone pull me out of it. I remember taking a lifeguard training, but in that moment, I forgot how to swim. So it was probably a little bit embarrassing that I had a police officer dragging me through the water.

MG: They had to swim in to get you, right?

KF: Oh, the police officers had to swim in to get us, and then use a crowbar to force the elevator door open because the situation was happening too quickly that the fire department couldn’t be waited for.

MG: What do you remember about when they started to open the door?

KF: I remember seeing their faces. And they seemed happier to see us. I mean we were happy, but they seemed happy that they were able to get us out of there. I remember that expression on their face. And then that was the first time that I knew for sure that we're you know get out of that situation. I just remember thinking of my family, my daughter in particular, that I was going to be able to see her again.

JD: From our archives that was Klever Freire speaking with As It Happens guest host Matt Galloway last August. Yesterday, the Toronto Board of Trade named constables Josh McSweeney and Ryan Barnett Police Officers of the Year for rescuing Mr. Freire and another man from a flooded elevator.

[Music]

Georgia abortion

Guest: Jen Jordan

JD: Georgia's Republican governor has signed one of the most restrictive abortion laws in the United States -- criminalizing the procedure for most women. That means that some women and their doctors could go to prison. The new law sets the stage for a challenge to nationwide abortion laws in the U.S. Supreme Court. Democratic State Senator Jen Jordan has been one of the most vocal opponents of this new law. We reached Senator Jordan in Atlanta.

CO: Senator Jordan just give us some idea of how restrictive the so-called fetal heartbeat law will be in the state of Georgia.

JEN JORDAN: So with respect to that it's once a heartbeat is detectable -- and let's be clear it's not a heartbeat either, it's fetal poll cardiac activity. It's kind of the beginnings of the mass of cells that will eventually become you know a human body. But with respect to that, once it could be detected which is really 5.5 to 6 weeks, that is exactly the time when pregnancy can be detected on a pregnancy test because you start counting the first day of your last minstrel period that that's when you know you get kind of a three to four week period that kind of gets you know swept up into that before a woman is actually pregnant. So you know taken altogether that just basically means that women in Georgia will not have access to the ability to terminate a pregnancy at all.

CO: And what's also is in this law is that the fetus is regarded as a person and has full rights as a person. So what consequences does that present for women who do terminate a pregnancy?

JJ: Well that's the problem. That's one of the things that hasn't gotten a lot of attention but probably will have the most significant implications. I mean whether it's you know being criminally prosecuted for miscarrying maybe you haven't been you know getting the appropriate prenatal care. Maybe you were drinking and you shouldn't have been. Or even if a woman -- you know I've heard a lot of people talk about, 'well you know we'll just have to start going across state lines again' -- you know people with means, and I'm like no. Because if in fact this fertilized egg is considered a person you can't do anything to that fertilized egg that you couldn't do to a living breathing human being in the state of Georgia.

CO: But if she does terminate that pregnancy by whatever means or if she miscarries and according to what I've read is that if she miscarries because of her behaviour -- her conduct -- that's also included -- what are the charges -- she could be charged with murder?

JJ: Right -- criminal abortion. If they take a drug or if they self-abort or whatever, they will be subject to criminal prosecution and jail time.

CO: And possibly what will be the charges? What kind of a prison sentence could they serve?

JJ: I mean just for criminal abortion you're looking at I think 10 years in jail. But you know the whole idea of making this embryo or this -- you know a person, if you expand that out to all other laws that say you can't kill a person or you can't do this to a person, obviously then the implications are that those laws will also you know affect women who may lose a pregnancy and someone can draw some kind of line to some of their behaviour or something they did or whatever. I mean it's really just -- it's opening a Pandora's box that I don't even know if we even understand the complete implications of it right now.

CO: Back in March when you spoke on the Senate floor about this law you said you believed it to be wrong from a legal point of view and from a science point of view. But you also spoke of your own experience and you told the floor about your own miscarriages and how they had informed your views. What did you tell them?

JJ: I did. And part of that was there has been so much misinformation out there about abortion. Because I was like you know I may not be a physician, but I can tell you that particularly in my life I have seen what you call a heartbeat many times in pregnancies that did not result in viability or birth. Because they were saying things or if they had people making speeches about you know once there is this fetal activity then you know 100 percent of women have these healthy children -- and that just was not consistent with my own experience, it is not consistent with the scientific evidence, it is certainly not consistent with any of the other experiences of other women I know.

CO: You told them -- you told the floor -- that out of 10 pregnancies, 8 had miscarried. And it was tragically painful for you. How did they react to that? How did the men in the floor respond when you shared that story?

JJ: You know I think everybody was emotionally drained from the day. But I'll tell you that in the middle of the speech I could tell -- I mean that they were really listening. And I spoke to a lot of them afterwards and people who were very nice about it and human. But you know I think that's why the defeat or like having no Republicans come over was particularly hurtful because you know I really did share something incredibly personal in it and it felt almost like a personal rebuke to some extent to say you know I mean yeah that's been your experience but we're going to go with the partisan line here.

CO: You're not the only state now to have done that. This is the fourth state to enact fetal heartbeat laws. This all -- I presume -- end up being challenged in the Supreme Court. Do you think that that will be the end of it? Do you think it will be overturned once it reaches the highest court?

JJ: You know I'm not sure what the Supreme Court is going to do. And that's why it's particularly important that starting in 2020 we get more women running for office and being elected because I think the worst case scenario with respect to the Supreme Court is that they will conclude that it is a state's rights issue meaning that it will be for the State of Georgia to make a determination as to what they think about abortion. And so for me what that means is that we've got approximately 2 or so years to make sure that if in fact that happens that the people who are in control at that point in time are going to look a lot different than they look today to make sure that this law never actually takes effect.

CO: We will leave it there and we will be following this story Senator Jordan. I appreciate speaking with you today. Thank you.

JJ: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

JD: Jen Jordan is a Democratic Senator in Georgia's state legislature. We reached her in Atlanta. And we do have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Archie

JD: The name Archie has come a long way. Like some other things, Archibald's origins were German. To the early Teutons, it was a combination of 'erchan' which means precious and 'bald' or bold. But the German name didn't last, leaving one to assume that those Archies were not particularly bold. And that left the English to adopt their Arches from ancient Greek where the name was just another way of saying 'chief' -- which goes some way to explaining the long list of Archies clambering into High Office. Not that it made them all that high happy. Just ask the 17th Scottish Earl, Archibald The Grim. But he wasn't the only one who wasn't very nice. Consider the Arichies of American pop culture. Jughead liked his comic book friend, but to Betty and Veronica he was a two-timing jerk. It took TV's 'All in the Family' and its reactionary Archie Bunker to send the popularity of the name into a tailspin. Now, as you've no doubt heard, Archie is once again in full flight. Yes, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have given the name to their little royal newborn -- putting an Archie seventh in line from Elizabeth's throne.

[Music]

Part 3: Rhode Island students with lunch money debt given cold sandwiches instead of hot lunches

Lunch school debts

Guest: Angelica Penta

JD: One sunflower seed butter and jam sandwich. Starting Monday that is what lunch awaits students in a Rhode Island school district if they have not paid their lunch debts. Warwick Public Schools announced that if money is owed on a paid, free, or reduced lunch account, no hot meal will be provided. Parents are not happy. Angelica Penta is a local restaurant owner whose son attends one of the Warwick Public Schools but does not have lunch debt. She has tried to pay off other students' unpaid lunch debt but was rebuffed. We reached Ms. Penta in Warwick, Rhode Island.

CO: Angelica have you ever had a sunflower seed butter and jam sandwich?

ANGELICA PENTA: No I have not. But there is actually some representatives that were eating it on the radio over here today and they said it wasn't that good.

CO: This not toast or anything. This is just an oil substance and jam put together on white bread, right?

AP: Yes.

CO: Okay so what does that mean? When these students are handed this sandwich at lunchtime because their families didn't pay off their debts, what does that say?

AP: So there are some kids that do say that it is a good sandwich -- though I don't want to knock the sandwich too bad. But when they are taking your lunch away, throwing it in the trash, and then only giving you a cold bun butter sandwich it tells other kids that you can't afford to buy your lunch basically or you don't have money or you owe money to your lunch account. And to me it's a form of lunch shaming -- and I don't think it's acceptable. And they're still charging the same price as the hot meal so you're still getting charged. So now we're throwing a meal away, we're giving you a cold sandwich, and we're still going to charge you -- so you're still going to be in debt.

CO: But the debts that they've racked up -- Warwick Public Schools says these debts of people not paying the lunch program or not paying enough of it is 77,000 dollars of unpaid debt. So that's considerable, isn't it?

AP: Yes. They allowed every child to be able to get a hot meal so that nobody would have to get a cheese sandwich or somebody's sandwich before -- so once they started that apparently that's when the debt started because people supposedly were like okay well you know my kids are going to eat either way, so what's the big deal? That's what you know other people say. I think it is -- you don't know somebody's story. For all you know somebody could have just lost a parent or a husband or wife or someone could have just got cancer or could've been sick and been out of work for a while or they could have just lost their job. There's so many different things that could affect this. So you don't know someone's story. You don't know the reason why they're not paying the bill. You can't just assume it's because somebody is drinking or smoking or whatever -- and even if they were, it's not the child's fault.

CO: And you mentioned lunch shaming -- we have done several stories in the United States about this business of the kids getting a cheese sandwich or jam sandwich or whatever instead of the hot lunch because they don't pay their debts and that the kids are the ones who feel ashamed, their parents aren't sitting there with this lesser lunch, right?

AP: I don't think it's fair to the kids. The kids aren't old enough to go out and get a job especially elementary school kids. They don't understand why they can't have that sandwich, so they cry. I've had lunch ladies reach out to me and say nobody sees what we see -- we are the ones that have to take the meal away from the kids, we're the ones that have to watch them cry, we're the ones that have to explain and they don't understand. To me, it could be avoided.

CO: And in fact there's another story in Pennsylvania. We interviewed a woman who worked in the cafeteria who had to take a lunch away from a hungry grade one student and she quit on the spot. She was so appalled to do it. But I understand you have tried to help out by paying off lunch school debts for kids you don't even know. But the school refused to take your money. Why is that?

AP: Yes. Last year there was an episode where there was a child that went through the lunch line, she didn't have any money in her account, she owed money, so they took her lunch and threw it in the garbage. She was embarrassed. She started crying in front of everybody. And she was very upset about it. So I found out about it. It brought me to tears -- I am very sensitive when it comes to kids. I posted a big article on Facebook. I said I'm going to open a lunch account with the schools and I'm going to put money in there and any child that doesn't have any lunch money can just take money out of this account. Unfortunately it's not that easy so that's not how it worked out. But right now we have our restaurants Warwick and West Warwick -- so we have jars on both countertops there. So we chose to only help Warwick and West Warwick right now just because we're only raising so much. And it is a lot of debt. So we chose to help those two out. And West Warwick took our cheque -- no problem. I went to Warwick, they didn't want to take my cheque. Apparently there was a story that happened last year with Warwick -- some teachers raise some money for students, they paid down their lunch bill, and parents got upset with it. They called the school. They basically said I can afford my kid's lunch. Don't pay my kid's lunch. It was embarrassing for the parents. Unfortunately you're never going to be able to make everybody happy. And you know as much as I'd love to help the world, it doesn't always happen that way. So right now I know that there are over 1600 families that are in debt in Warwick alone. So basically I need to post on Facebook or whatever and reach out to these 1600 plus families and say, do you need help paying off your school lunch? We are forming a 501(c)(3) for -- we're still waiting for it to go through. That stuff takes time.

CO: It sounds like an awful lot of work just to try and give a kid a hot meal. But I mean the 77,000 dollars is a lot of money for the school. But it's not really a large sum all things considered. And we saw what happened in New Mexico where they just decided that they would ban lunch shaming and the state government stepped in and said it's a law that kids have to be will have a hot meal and they're going to pay for it. So maybe that's where it's going to be bumped, right?

AP: I think that every child should be able to get a hot meal and not have to worry about it. And I do know that you know there are a lot of people that are against that and our taxes are high enough why do we have to pay for and stuff. But there are so many other things that our taxes are wasted on. I'm sure we can cut somewhere. You know it costs an average of about 425 dollars a year per kid for a school lunch. So I mean that's actually not that bad if you compare it to other things. I'm sure there are cuts -- other places that we can make them.

CO: All right. Well we will be following this Angelica. I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

AP: All right. Thank you so much.

JD: Angelica Penta is a restaurant owner whose son attends one of Warwick Public Schools in Rhode Island. We have more on this story as well on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

War crimes videos

Guest: Ali Hamza

JD: The images are disturbing: photos and videos showing fighters in Libya celebrating over mutilated bodies -- many of them civilians. The actions shown in these videos are war crimes. And the videos were shared on social media. Now a BBC investigation has identified some of the fighters in these videos. The BBC reports the men are part of elite forces under strongman Khalifa Haftar who heads the self-styled Libyan National Army which is trying to seize control of the country. Canadian Ali Hamza has seen the images. He recognizes some of the victims as his family. His mother, his two brothers, and his two sisters, were killed in sieges in Benghazi two years ago. And now he is working to find justice at the International Criminal Court. We reached Mr. Hamza in Mississauga, Ontario.

CO: Ali first of all I'm so sorry for your loss.

ALI HAMZA: Yes it is difficult. We're living through it. We're in the pursuit of justice to protect life and to honour them. And we thank you for your thoughts and your feelings.

CO: The recent investigation by the BBC -- what they have been able to find out. What new evidence do you think you have that could lead possibly to a war crimes prosecution of those who murdered your family?

AH: BBC's effort is an appreciated effort because of the reach of the BBC and confirming you know and showing many others who may not have seen it, the brutality that has been used against civilians as well.

CO: And I understand you had seen these horrible images of the siege on the Qunfudah neighbourhood in Benghazi. The people, the civilians, who were killed -- their bodies desiccated. And you knew your family -- you can see the images of your family among those. But now this has been on television -- this is not just on YouTube or Facebook. This is what BBC put out there for all to see. What does that change now you think that the public has seen what you know happened to your family?

AH: And you said it -- it's the public now who are seeing it. It's the world who are seeing it. We have been suffering alone for a very long time. And all we wanted to be displayed was the truth and all we want is investigating war criminals like Haftar who pride themselves and teach others to not take any prisoners and who insisted on preventing their families from accessing food or water. But with BBC and hopefully with CBC and with entities like these with a very broad outreach this can be part of you know enabling the application of law and initiating justice.

CO: And what's important about the work that BBC is investigation did, it is that the actual perpetrators -- the members -- you mentioned Khalifa Haftar who is the self-styled head of this Libyan National Army. His own elite special forces are the ones -- clearly those images, those faces, those people, are in there committing these crimes -- these alleged crimes which we should say. And BBC has now identified the names of those people or they believed to be those people. What do you think should happen now? You mentioned the International Criminal Court. Where should this evidence now go?

AH: On the ICC I really see a very important clear step that should take place which is really issuing an arrest warrant against Khalifa Haftar. It will start an investigation before the world and to the most heinous kind of crimes that have been committed against people including my family. And through communications with investigators within the ICC, they identified our Canadian family as victims. And our federal War Crimes Act makes it an obligation on the federal government to initiate an investigation into war crimes when they are committed by Canadians or they are committed against Canadians -- and our government has got to come in with a more focused and efficient investigation into the crimes of Khalifa Haftar.

CO: So when you say the ICC -- in case people don't know -- International Criminal Court. Here are a few of the problems: that Libya is not a signatory of the criminal court and so it's limited to what the ICC can do. You believe that the Canadian law which allows for limited prosecutions for crimes against humanity and war crimes -- for people be prosecuted here. You believe that the RCMP should get involved at this point?

AH: I believe so and I hope so. And we initiated contact with personnel at the Department of Justice who are saying they will look at the files that I have sent to them and we are talking to legal counsel about it and we are voicing our need for the initiation of justices through the inaction of our federal War Crimes Act.

CO: We know that you were trying to reach your family. You had done an extraordinary fundraising and aid raising mission to Turkey trying to get into Libya because your family was trapped there and you wanted to help them. And before you could reach them with that aid you learned that they had been killed. When you think about what happened to them and these images are so horrible of their last moments, what drives you to do this? What do you need to do for their sake -- in their name -- in order to get justice do you think?

AH: Really open up to everybody with the story -- you know to honour them. But the idea is really to share the amount of evidence and to initiate justice. We want to say that there is hope in this world and that terror and crimes at this scale will not be left unpunished basically.

CO: Ali I hope you get to see justice for what happened to your family. And again our condolences for those horrible events. But thank you for speaking with us.

AH: Thank you very much for having me.

JD: Five members of Ali Hamza's family were killed in Libya in 2017. A new BBC investigation has identified the fighters in videos cheering over the desecrating bodies of Mr. Hamza's family members. We reached him in Mississauga, Ontario.

[Music]

Blood donation

JD: The Federal Government has announced a change to Canada's blood donation rules. Gay and bisexual men in Canada had been barred from making donations unless they had abstained from having sex with another man for at least a year. Now that abstention period is going to be reduced to three months. Liberal MP Randy Boissoneault is the Prime Minister's special advisor on LGBTQ2 issues. Mr. Boissoneault spoke about the change on Parliament Hill today.

SOUNDCLIP

RANDY BOISSONEAULT: Well this is a big win for the LGBTQ community. When we started in office the ban was at five years. Even before that it was a lifetime ban. So we went to five years and then under our government went to one year. We've been working with the community. We funded the science. We funded three and half million dollars towards the science so that we could follow the science and reduce. And now today, it's a great honour with the minister to announce that we are gutting down to three months. The research continues. There's still money there. We're still working on the file. This puts us at the same level as the United Kingdom, Scotland, and Wales on this issue. We continue to work with the community. It's a good day and it demonstrates what happens when government follows the science.

REPORTER: [Asking about waiting period]

RANDY BOISSONEAULT: Well look we can see the goal at the end of the tunnel and we have to keep following the science -- that is the commitment that we made to the community. And that's why the minister and the government funded the science so we're going to continue to follow the science. But today's a big win for a government that follows the science and works with the community.

JD: That was Liberal MP Randy Boissoneault, speaking about changes that will allow men who have sex with men to donate blood in Canada if they have abstained from sex with another man for three months. That is down from one year. Not everyone sees this as a win. Christopher Karas, who filed a human rights complaint in 2016 told CBC, quote, "These policies are not based on behaviour. These policies target groups and don't allow those groups to donate blood for discriminatory reasons."

[Music]

Stonehenge return

Guest: Lewis Phillips

JD: 60 years ago, Robert Phillips took a piece of Stonehenge. Now, that missing bit of monument has been returned to its historic home. Mr. Phillips is now 90 years old. And it was with help from his sons that the stone piece made a journey from Florida to its rightful place. Lewis Phillips is Robert's son. We reached him in Canterbury, England.

CO: Lewis how did your dad get this piece of Stonehenge?

LEWIS PHILLIPS: Way back in 1958 they did a lot of archeological work at Stonehenge. The firm that my father worked for was engaged to drill out three holes across stones so they could put stainless steel bolts through to hold the stone together. So with the consent of the Ministry of Works as it was then called the firm took back one of these pieces of stone that they drilled out and it rested for about 20 years in my father's office -- mounted up on the wall in a plexiglass tube.

CO: But in Florida [chuckles] this sounds like a rather well traveled piece of stone.

LP: It is an extremely well-traveled piece of stone. And in fact I think we can say with confidence that it is the furthest traveled piece of Stonehenge. When my father left the firm rather than risk it being lost or chucked out, he decided that the best thing to do would be to take it and safeguard it. So he immigrated to the United States in 1977 and the stone came with him.

CO: And he traveled a bit in the States...

LP: Yeah he started off in Rochester, New York. And then his work moved him across the country to Chicago, and then to Ventura in California. And then when he finally retired to Aventura, Florida -- which is where he now lives.

CO: And where the stone was living.

LP: And where the stone has been living for the last 25 years I guess.

CO: Is this something that your dad put in a vault and hid away or was this kicking around in the house?

LP: No. It's been out. It's been up on display in his apartment and been an interesting talking piece I guess.

CO: As a boy and a young man as you looked at the stone in your dad's possession -- did it look special? What does it look like?

LP: It's encased in this plexiglass tube but the stone core itself is about an inch in diameter and about just over three feet long. As a kid we would visit Stonehenge and my dad would point out on the stones -- if you look carefully you can see there are three places there where we drilled out these stones and the bolts were put in. And then I can recall visiting my dad and there hanging on the wall was this piece of Stonehenge.

CO: Did he ever have any regrets that he had taken this part of Stonehenge?

LP: No. I think that on the contrary -- I think that he felt that it was an important thing to do so that it was preserved and didn't just get lost.

CO: So why did your family and why did he decide that it was time to return the stone?

LP: I think similar reasons. You know he's now turned 90. I guess when you get to that age you start worrying about what's going to happen next. After his death, what would happen to this? And he was wanting to be sure that it actually came back home to the United Kingdom and back to Stonehenge.

CO: Now did anyone officially know that your father had this piece of the stones?

LP: I don't think anybody even knew that it existed. I don't think they necessarily knew that as part of the drilling process the cause of stone remained.

CO: Well were you told that the Heritage Association that you had this, how did they respond?

LP: They were pretty surprised because they didn't even know that it existed.

CO: And did they say, 'bring this back' right away?

LP: Well they said yeah sure we really would love to have it back -- let us think about how we're going to do this. And this went on for actually quite some time. But then latterly they said, is there any way you could bring it back? And this was about bit over a year ago. And so English Heritage arranged for a secure packing case to be delivered to my dad's apartment. It was very exciting that a large blue van drove up in Aventura in Florida bearing the royal warrant by appointment to Her Majesty the Queen -- Fine Art shippers.

CO: My gosh. So they helped you -- but you and your brother actually were the ones to return the stone, right?

LP: I brought it back with me in my luggage. My brother Robert and I went down to Stonehenge early one morning and met with the curators at the monuments and we did a a formal handover.

CO: What was that like?

LP: It was really rather special. You know when you go to any major visitor attraction there are always hundreds of people there. But going there early in the morning actually before the official opening time where there were no nobody else -- and we were privileged to be allowed to go close up to the stone circle to see where the stone had been drilled. In the quiet, it was really rather a magical experience.

CO: But now they believe that possibly that the stone that your father had kept might reveal some secrets about where the stones came from.

LP: This is the really exciting bit and what we're really pleased about. Stonehenge consists of the outer ring -- the big stones -- and then there's an inner ring of smaller stones called the blue stones and they know the blue stones came from South Wales. But they don't really know precisely where these big sarsen sandstone comes from. They've been doing a lot of work with non-destructive examinations -- so, clever machines that look at the surface of the stone. But of course the surface of the stone has had thousands of years of exposure to the elements. So you're never getting quite that. With the stone that we've been able to pass to them you know precisely which stone it's come from and it's enabled the scientists who take some very small samples from right in the centre of the stones that have never been exposed to the elements. And that's really very valuable to them in helping to if you like do a DNA fingerprint. Very exciting to be part of that scientific process.

CO: And also, your family is now part of the long and mythical history of Stonehenge itself.

LP: [Laughs] Yeah I guess so.

CO: Lewis it is a great story. Thanks for telling it to us.

LP: You're very welcome.

JD: Lewis Phillips recently returned a piece of Stonehenge that his family had for 60 years. We reached Mr. Phillips in Canterbury, England. And if you would like to see a photograph of that piece of Stonehenge we have that on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

The 73 Percent Report

JD: Creating music can be a euphoric experience for the musicians. But it does come with some troubling side effects. That is according to a new study -- "The 73 Percent Report" -- by the Swedish digital distribution platform, Record Union. The companies surveyed 1,500 independent musicians and found that nearly two thirds are suffering from mental illness. The reason for this high number, fear of failure, financial instability, pressure to succeed, and loneliness. And more than half of the musicians said that they are turning to alcohol and or drugs to self-medicate. Record Union says the numbers have convinced them to donate 30,000 dollars to help musicians with their mental health. And that idea is not new to Ottawa's Hollerado. In February the indie rock band created a mental health fund that gives 1500 dollars every year to each musician on their label. It is a "no questions asked" fund for their mental health -- and Hollerado hopes it's just the beginning.

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May 8, 2019 Episode Transcript

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