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The AIH Transcript for April 30, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Him and that army. In Venezuela, it's all or nothing for Juan Guaido -- after he calls on the military and the public to join him to try to force Nicolas Maduro out of office.

JD: A temporarily sheltered life. Two sisters who fled to Saudi Arabia tell us that they are grateful to be protected by the United Nations in Georgia -- but they're still looking over their shoulders.

CO: Follow-up appointment. After a Nova Scotia cancer patient posts an emotional video about not being able to find a family doctor, she finds a meeting with the province's premier on her schedule.

JD: Found in translation. The meaning of the UN's Year of Indigenous Languages can seem unclear -- until you hear the new meaning given to The Beatles' "Blackbird" when it's sung in the Mi'kmaq language.

CO: Don't go placin' waterfalls. I mean unless you're world renowned architect Moshe Safdie -- who built one into a fancy new airport project in Singapore that everyone's gushing over.

JD: And seeping beauty. A slime producing salamander nicknamed the "snot otter" is now the official state amphibian of Pennsylvania -- and a student who fought for that honour tells us why the gross thing was grossly underrated. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that lets you in on a little secretor.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: The new official amphibian of Pennsylvania is the slimy 'snot otter'

Guaido military

Guest: Vanessa Neumann

JD: Juan Guaido has declared what he called the "final phase of Operation Liberty" in Venezuela. Many countries have recognized Mr. Guaido as the legitimate president of the country. And this morning he appeared surrounded by a group of armed troops and called for people to take to the streets. But what he calls a liberation struggle, supporters of Nicolas Maduro have called an attempted military coup against the legitimate Venezuelan government. Vanessa Neumann is Juan Guaido's official representative in the U.K. We reached Ms. Neumann in London earlier today.

CO: Ms. Neumann can you just first of all describe the clashes that we're seeing on the streets of Caracas today?

VANESSA NEUMANN: So what we are seeing is basically Juan Guaido has several military commanders from the middle and upper ranks -- (they) have sided with Guaido and have stated their loyalty for him. And he has called upon the Venezuelans to rise up in the streets also in support. This was organized. There's three thousand one hundred units throughout the country that have been organized for this march -- mass protest -- that was supposed to be tomorrow but it has been moved up to take place today.

CO: I mean you say these troops who Mr. Guaido appeared to be surrounded by -- he seems to have that support. But just how much of the military is actually on side, because clearly Mr. Maduro still has quite a bit of military support himself?

VN: Right. Well basically what has happened is that the high military command have still sided with Maduro. But a lot of their men are now changing their minds. We have reports right now that actually rather than publicly state their positions that they are actually not [inaudible] with President Maduro negotiating his exit. These are reports so we have to track events as they develop over the night, but basically that the high military command that has so far supported Maduro has said that they will keep his family safe but it is time for him to go.

CO: It feels like we have been at this point a number of times before when it seemed: this was the night, this was going to be the end, we're going to see either this uprising fail or it's going to be Mr. Guaido who's going to be in office tomorrow. And then each time it dies down again. What makes you think that this time this Operation Freedom will be successful?

VN: Well I want to be careful about making predictions here because the situation is fluid and volatile. What we do have is that we have the organized protests of -- as I said of -- 3100 points that was organized for the people to come out and support. And you have a deepening crisis. I mean you know the inflation rate is now at over two point seven million percent. You have eighteen point seven million Venezuelans who our starving. We have the beginning of the largest famine we have seen really probably since Sudan or Ethiopia. And the largest exodus that is about to surpass Syria proportions. Everybody understands that Maduro staying in power is not a solution -- none of this gets better. And the military I think realizes that the exit is one way or another. However let me be careful here, we have a little bit of a standoff situation. The military is waiting to see how many people come down from the hills. We are also waiting to see if the military shoots on the people. If they shoot on the people and Guaido invokes clause 187.11 of the Constitution where as legitimate commander-in-chief he can request international assistance and cooperation from foreign partners -- then you would see an escalation.

CO: We just saw on the streets -- we saw among the protests -- we saw an armored vehicle drive over people, anti-government protesters, who were amassed on the road. So perhaps troops not shooting at them but they are pursuing them. I don't know what casualties there were. But it's quite a violent moment. So is that going to discourage people from coming out as you need them to do at this point?

VN: Well maybe, maybe not. We also saw other videos where some of them have been turned back by the numbers of people. So this is literally a street by street, neighbourhood by neighbourhood -- the people encouraging the military to follow their will and to help end the horror of the humanitarian crisis.

CO: At the same time it's all about who has control of those military forces at this point, isn't it? And Mr. Maduro insists he has -- he says -- total loyalty. And his information minister says that Mr. Guaido is up to his coup mongering, murderous, it's the far-right, and that they don't have the support of the military leaders. So again, I mean yes there are those who are there, we've seen them before, we've seen the soldiers who are joining the people. But again the leaders of the military seem still to be on the side of Mr. Maduro.

VN: As I said you know we have also seen other coups and other coup attempts in other parts of the world -- and even in Venezuela -- and this is not a coup. This is encouraging the military to stop being the biggest drug cartel and start supporting the Constitution and not to allow armed gangs to shoot at the people or the colectivos or to do it themselves. So this is not a coup. This is a restitution of the constitutional order if it works.

CO: And just finally you have considerable international support politically. You mentioned the possibility of military intervention. United States being a principal supporter of Mr. Guaido. Do you see foreign involvement on a military level in your struggle?

VN: I want to be clear that it would be military cooperation. It would be in cooperation with President Guaido and in cooperation with some factions of the military who have come out and supported Guaido. So it would be hand in hand and it would be in defense of the Venezuelan people. It is possible that that's one scenario. I don't know. It is once again entirely up to the military. If they shoot on the civilians, that's entirely possible. I don't think that any of the neighbours who are already facing an exodus of up to eight point four million people was the prediction by the end of next year. That's before the lights went out. If there is mass violence those numbers would surge. So I think a lot of the neighbours would also support. And don't forget we do have 13 countries in the Lima Group who have unequivocally stated that Maduro needs to leave.

CO: And we'll mention Canada is among that Lima Group. Ms. Neumann I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

VN: Thank you very much for having me on. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

JD: Vanessa Nuemann is Juan Guaido's official representative in the U.K. We reached her in London earlier today.

[Music]

Nova Scotia cancer patient

Guest: Marilyn Inez Rudderham

JD: In an emotional video, Marilyn Inez Rudderham called herself the face of the health care crisis in the province of Nova Scotia. Now she has also become its voice. As we told you on the program last week, the 33-year-old mother -- who goes by Inez -- is one of tens of thousands in Nova Scotia without a family doctor. And in her video she spoke about visiting three ERs before finally being diagnosed with stage three anal cancer. In the video she also dared Premier Stephen McNeil to meet with her. A challenge that he has since accepted. We reached Inez Rudderham in Windsor, Nova Scotia.

CO: Inez you didn't just ask the premier to meet to you -- you dared him to meet you. What did you think when he actually took you up?

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Shocked. Absolutely shocked. Yeah, overwhelmed but excited.

CO: But when you posted the original video you added a caption that says probably going to regret does this but I'm so done. Do you regret it? Are you still in that same state of mind?

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: No. Well... [chuckles] I think it depends on the moment. Initially I did regret it. And I almost deleted it. But thankfully I have a very dear best friend who encouraged me not to, and to kind of work through the uncomfortableness of being in the public eye because it was a little bit bigger than me.

CO: At this point that video has been seen four million times.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Yeah. That's a lot.

CO: That is a lot. And so, mixed emotions -- I think you talked about feeling embarrassed but also validated.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Absolutely. You know part of my personal story here is feeling like I wasn't listened to. And then to share a moment of emotion and vulnerability and have people rally around you is really the finest example of validation, so it was pretty special.

CO: For those who haven't seen or heard the video -- maybe just to explain how it is. You visited three emergency rooms before finally getting a diagnosis of cancer.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: I did, yeah. So I had been having severe symptoms of IBS or irritable bowel syndrome and I knew after probably the second ER visit that something was really wrong. And I felt I had to keep advocating for my health. So the third time I went to the ER the doctor was incredible and confirmed that there was something there and within a week I was in a specialist's office.

CO: But what delay occurred? Because you didn't have a very basic thing which was a family doctor.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: I didn't. And that is probably one of my biggest cries at this point because I know for a fact if I had had my old family doctor she would have found it prior to it ever advancing as far as it did.

CO: How much of a delay do you think there was before you were getting treatment because you didn't have that doctor?

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: I truly feel that if I had had access to my family doctor she would have found it when it was you know a stage one -- a polyp. Even maybe stage two -- but stage three is quite advanced. My tumor was 5.8-centimetres long -- roughly the size of an egg.

CO: And I know you've also requested mental health support. And that support you won't get until July. Is that right?

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Yes. So in January of this year I started to actively pursue mental health services. I have quite a bit of trauma from the whole experience. And I wanted help because [chokes up] I have an absolutely beautiful little 4-year-old girl and I wanted to get better and I wanted to be at the top of my game so that I could be there for her. She suffers already because of the after effects of my treatment. You know I can't play with her. I get tired very easy. And I just didn't want my mental health affecting her life. That little girl is everything to me.

CO: And you talked about your daughter in the video. And the 4 million people who have watched it -- a lot of them were cancer patients, weren't they? A lot of people drew inspiration from you in watching that.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Yeah. The response has been incredible. It's been very helpful for me in processing my own trauma and my own journey through cancer. Cancer has this funny way of isolating you. You know it tears down everything that you know you are as a person. It changes everything and so you become very isolated. And to have people reach out and share their cancer stories with me is so incredibly kind and helpful [cries] because I know I'm not alone.

CO: And it's that petition -- that cry -- that so many people heard. But also obviously the Premier of Nova Scotia heard it as well.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: He did. Yes. He absolutely did. Yeah.

CO: And what is that you want to tell him and what you want to hear back from him?

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: I want him to understand that it's not just me. This is so much bigger than me. And you know I hear daily from people who suffer through similar circumstances and so I just want to sit down with him and I want to tell him these stories and express to him (that) this is why you know the people of your province feel this way. And then I want to give him an opportunity to tell me what he's doing on his end.

CO: And you've got the data on your side don't you? Because he in 2013 election, he promised every Nova Scotian would have a family doctor. And here by the end of 2018 there was a wait list of 55,000 people.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: 55,000.

CO: Do you think you can get the premier to admit that there's a crisis in having doctors in Nova Scotia?

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: I don't think. I don't think he'll openly admit that. And to be honest, I don't need him to say -- yes there is a health care crisis in Nova Scotia. But I need him to acknowledge that something is not right and that change needs to happen...and soon.

CO: Inez I admire your courage.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Thank you.

CO: Good on you. Thank you for speaking with us anytime.

MARILYN INEZ RUDDERHAM: Anytime. Thank you so much.

JD: Marilyn Inez Rudderham is a 33-year-old cancer patient. We reached her in Windsor, Nova Scotia.

[Music]

Blackbird

JD: According to the website Ethnologue -- which bills itself as "the most authoritative resource on world languages" -- there are about 7000 languages spoken on the planet or in the planet today...on Earth today. But by the end of the 21st century linguists predict that only half will still be spoken. The rest will have gone extinct. That is why UNESCO declared 2019 the Year of Indigenous Languages. "In order to raise awareness of them, not only to benefit the people who speak these languages, but also for others to appreciate the important contribution they make to our world's cultural diversity." And that's an admirable project but that carefully written mission statement isn't really that inspiring on its own. It proves that words or English words anyway won't necessarily be enough to actually raise awareness. You need to talk in terms that people understand --even if they don't understand the language itself. Maybe something small but something powerfully moving. Like this project by students at Allison Bernard Memorial High School in Eskasoni, Cape Breton. They recorded a version of "Blackbird" by The Beatles --translated into their native Mi'kmaq language. And here it is sung by Emma Stevens.

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Blackbird in Mi'kmaq language]

JD: Emma Stevens, a student at Allison Bernard Memorial High School in Eskasoni, Cape Breton singing "Blackbird" translated into Mi'kmaq. And if you would like to watch the video for that song we have put it up on our Twitter feed: @CBCAsItHappens.

[Music]

Snot otter

Guest: Emma Stone

JD: The Eastern hellbender salamander goes by a variety of names -- none of them particularly dignified: Lasagna lizard, Devil dog -- and perhaps most regrettably -- snot otter. Obviously respect is long overdue for this natural marvel which can't help being kind of gross. And respect is what it has finally gotten now that it has been named the official amphibian for the state of Pennsylvania. Earlier this month state lawmakers voted in favour of bestowing that honour on the salamander. And it has Emma Stone to thank. Ms. Stone is a high school senior, and the president of the Chesapeake Bay Foundation's Student Leadership Council. That is the group that lobbied for the change. We reached Emma Stone in Mount Holly Springs, Pennsylvania.

CO: Emma with the news that the state of Pennsylvania has chosen the Eastern hellbender salamander as its official amphibian -- a.k.a. the snot otter -- you must be very pleased.

EMMA STONE: I certainly am. This has been so much hard work over the last three years. I mean we started this project in 2016, and now it's the spring of 2019 -- and we finally did it. We accomplished our goal. And it's so much more than just naming the hellbender as the Pennsylvania state amphibian -- there's so much more behind it than just a title.

CO: Why was it important to you? What is it about this creature that you think makes it so worthy?

ES: Most importantly the hellbender is an indicator species which means that its presence in water indicates that the water is healthy. So they can't survive in polluted water. They're very pollution intolerant. So we noticed that their populations were declining and that was most likely due to pollution in their water.

CO: And how did they get these weird names? This snot otter, lasagna lizard, the devil dog. What does it look like?

ES: It can grow to be 29 inches long. It's the largest amphibian in North America. And it is like a brown colour, they have flat heads, they live under large flat rock. And then they actually have these folds on the sides of their bodies -- sometimes referred to as "lasagna flaps" -- [chuckles] kind of a funny name also. So those additional folds provide them with more surface area on their skin. And so hellbenders are pretty interesting because they breathe through their skin. They do have lungs for if they were to go on land but they rarely go on land.

CO: Okay so that's how it got the name lasagna lizard. How did it get called a snot otter?

ES: They're very slimy [chuckles] hence the snot in a portion of that name. And they have racked up quite a few names. But the hellbender name is actually from people saying that it looks like it came from hell because it's really not attractive to look at.

CO: Okay so in addition to being butt-ugly, they are very very picky about where they live.

ES: Yes. They will only survive in very fast moving cold waters. And also they cannot survive with any pollution. So not only does it need to be a fast and cold moving stream, but it needs to be free of pollution.

CO: Wow. And so I'm with the lasagna lizard on this one. But it must mean that they're very rare.

ES: They -- at this point -- yes they are. Their populations have certainly declined significantly -- even just in the last 15 years. So yes they're definitely rare at this point. But there are a lot of breeding centres throughout Pennsylvania and New York to rehabilitate the hellbender population.

CO: I understand they're also quite elusive. So have you actually ever seen one?

ES: I have -- not natively in the wild -- but at these rehabilitation, repopulation, facilities -- I have seen and felt them. And seeing them up close, I mean sure they're ugly but they have a charming story definitely something that I'm proud to name the state amphibian.

CO: And do they feel slimy?

ES: They do, yes. They're very very slippery. It's difficult to get a grip on them.

CO: So that's a good thing though they wiggle out of people's hands if they try to take them in. Having this kind of recognition, what does it actually do for them?

ES: Like I said their populations are basically diminished. So our hope is that with all of this support and recognition of the hellbender and awareness of the hellbender that people are going to have an understanding of what they are. Because for me I didn't even know what a hellbender was in 2015. I'm sure that many other people also don't know what a hellbender is. And so with our research and with this bill we have informed a lot of people about this creature. And so our hope is that more people will learn about the hellbender and with it being named our state amphibian will encourage people to try to save it.

CO: You are 18 now so you were 14 or 15 when you first heard about this hellbender.

ES: Yes.

CO: And how did it get on your radar?

ES: Well I had attended an educational summer camp the summer after my freshman year of high school. And with that camp we actually worked with the Chesapeake Bay Foundation. And then one of the students that was in the camp was involved with the Student Leadership Council and she wanted me to join the Student Leadership Council and I was all hands on deck and was completely into the Student Leadership Council and I kind of joined right as the whole hellbender campaign was beginning.

CO: So they introduced you to the hellbender and then you got involved in this process to try and get it to be -- well -- to be recognized as the official amphibian. And now you've done that.

ES: Yes I'm very proud of that.

CO: Well on behalf of snot otters everywhere: Thank you.

ES: Thank you very much.

CO: Take care Emma. Bye.

ES: Bye.

JD: We reached high school student Emma Stone in Mount Holly Springs, Pennsylvania. And for your dinnertime viewing pleasure we do have images of the otter on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: Escaped Saudi sisters worry their family will hunt them down in Georgia

Saudi Georgia sisters

Guests: Maha & Wafa al-Subaie

JD: "We have for the first time experienced life without daily abuse." That is what two Saudi sisters wrote on Twitter this week. Earlier this month we told you about Maha and Wafa al-Subaie, the 28 and 25 year old sisters who fled their home in Saudi Arabia 30 days ago citing abuse and threats by family members. They traveled to Georgia, in the Caucasus region. The UNHCR has offered them protection -- but they say that Georgia is no safe country for them. We reached Maha and Wafa al-Subaie in Georgia.

CO: Maha and Wafa I know you have been in Georgia for almost a month. Can you describe what your life has been like since you fled from Saudi Arabia?

WAFA: Too many feelings between happy and so nervous, scared. We can't see our future. And of course we're scared so much and cry.

CO: Tell us -- you said it's happy and sad. What are the happy moments? What is good about life since you left Saudi Arabia?

MAHA: Where we are right now in life -- not death -- you know that make us happy. But another side, we are not safe.

WAFA: We are happy because we can sleep finally without violence, without threats, without anybody screaming in our face. Because of that we are happy but we can't feel we are safe right now.

CO: And this is the story we're learning about your life. How violent was it? What was the threat to you that made you both decide you had to get out of Saudi Arabia? How dangerous was it for you?

WAFA: So dangerous. If we talk about anything we want, they beat us. If we want to go alone -- if you didn't cover eyes...not face, no just two eyes -- we want to just see world -- they beat us for that.

CO: And when you say 'they' you mean your own family.

BOTH: Yeah.

CO: Why do you want the world to know your story? Why did you go public with that?

WAFA: Because if something happened to us the world would know about it. Because we're scared -- if my family and government catch up and take us to our country they will kill us. And we didn't [inaudible]

MAHA: Like another girl happened before.

CO: When you say the other -- a young woman named Rahaf who came to Canada. She was very public when she was hiding in the hotel in Thailand. We knew her story because she felt the world had to know in order to protect her.

BOTH: Yes. We see that.

MAHA: And support Rahaf.

WAFA: But we do that -- we in Georgia since month. We didn't show the world our faces because we tried to go out from Georgia without the media know. But we didn't have any other solution. When we know about our family and our passport maybe canceled we recorded this video.

CO: And that was because you feared that even though you were in Georgia -- another country -- and the UNHCR said you were protected, you felt your family may be in the country looking for you. Why did you feel that was the case?

WAFA: Because when we tried to make visa to Australia our passport failed. And we were just scared if our government canceled our passport.

CO: Did you think your own family -- people in your tribe from Saudi Arabia -- were actually in Georgia looking for you?

BOTH: Yes.

MAHA: When we go to France embassy they said somebody ask for you and our email -- how they know about you. We didn't tell anybody. And we closed our old phone. And new email and new number without our name. And this moment we just cry.

WAFA: We feel it's dangerous.

MAHA: Yes because we didn't think our family know we are in Georgia.

WAFA: Just change hotel -- hostel -- every day. Don't use our name -- real name -- in Georgia.

CO: One of you wrote on Twitter that, we are still scared of our tribe -- the threats have not stopped, we are very worried they will find us. What's going on right now?

WAFA: Yes. When we record our faces and with our name and our last name they know about us and Twitter. I don't know how they know but they know. And every day we have too many threats.

CO: So you're getting messages from people -- anonymous messages. Where do you think that's coming from?

WAFA: Some messages I think from government because they tried to make the media confuse they say we are liars, we are kidnapped. And some threats I think (are) from my family because they are talking about something I do in my home -- nobody knows about this, just my family.

CO: And that's why I want to ask you now because for both of you many people thought that you were inspired by Rahaf Mohammed who fled from Saudi Arabia to Canada. But I understand Wafa that this plan to escape from your family -- you've had this for about five years. Is that right?

WAFA: Yes. Yes. Before Rahaf. When Rahaf's story in the public we were scared because we think our family know about what we want. Now my father said about Rahaf that I wish the government take her and kill her. But if anybody ask us about Rahaf, we didn't know about her -- we didn't read this because we were scared if anybody think we are thinking like this.

CO: Did it scare you when your father said that he thought that Rahaf should be killed for what she did?

WAFA: Yes so much. That moment I just go to my room and just cry because that make me so angry. I am scared. I can't do this anymore because they know what we want because Rahaf is so famous in my country -- everybody know about her.

CO: Maha you're different from your sister in that you had been married, you got a divorce, and you had to leave your child behind. Is that right?

MAHA: Yeah. I didn't need my son watching my father beat me. And he see that. I can't go to the supermarket with my son. I can't go to the hospital if my son is sick. Or shopping. I can't do anything for my son.

CO: Was it because you got divorced that this created this problem that you can't...

MAHA: Yeah. My family don't support me and the government not support a woman get divorced. And we can't live a normal life with my son.

WAFA: When she gets a divorce, they think it's her fault. It's like shame in my family.

CO: And you didn't want your son to see the beatings you were getting. You didn't want him to see a weak mother.

MAHA: Yeah. I want to be strong mom because in the future I know my son understand why you left the country. He knows everything. Right now I tell all the world about our story because I'm not afraid anymore.

CO: But you are afraid. Even though you're now in Georgia, you're in a different country where you should be gaining refuge, you're not safe there. They can get to Georgia easily without a visa from Saudi Arabia. So what are you going to do?

WAFA: We can't go out. We can't live a normal life. Everybody knows about us right now. Too many tourists here from Saudi...

MAHA: Our faces are on the news in Arabic and all the news in the world.

CO: Where do you want to go?

WAFA: Any safe country: Europe, Canada -- to start our new life.

CO: And what has the UNHCR said about that?

WAFA: They said we are trying but we didn't promise you.

CO: Wafa and Maha I admire your courage. It must be very very difficult right now. But I really appreciate that you would talk to us tonight. Thank you both. Stay safe.

WAFA: Thank you.

JD: Maha and Wafa al-Subaie are sisters who fled their home in Saudi Arabia 30 days ago. They are now under UNHCR protection in Georgia, in the Caucasus region. For more of our coverage on the al-Subaie sisters, go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Waterfall architect

Guest: Moshe Safdie

JD: Airports are where you go to get transported. And at the recently opened Jewel Changi Airport in Singapore you will be transported without ever leaving the ground. The airport features a forest, a park, walking trails, and the piece de resistance is a seven storey waterfall. Israeli-Canadian Moshe Safdie is the lead designer of the project, and a principal at Safdie Architects. We reached him in Boston.

CO: Mr. Safdie can you just describe this waterfall for us and tell us what it's like to stand beside it?

MOSHE SAFDIE: Well what's it's proven to be is a bit beyond kind of nature. What I mean by that is that you expect certain things to happen in a building but a 40 metre or 120 foot waterfall of 12,000 gallons a minute is not something you expect in a building. And its impact is extraordinary: on sound, on air, it swirls the air, it creates a bit of a mist. It's totally magical. And when the sun hits it, it breaks up into rainbows and spectrum and rays of light that are almost sacred in character. And then at night they have the most beautiful light shows on the waterfalls so it just changes with the hours of the day.

CO: It sounds beautiful. But I wonder what compelled you to take that waterfall and put it inside an airport?

MS: Well the airport wanted to build a new centre to connect and unify all the terminals. Then they said they wanted an attraction. And everyone in that competition was thinking dinosaurs, Disneyland, mummies, and other such attractions. And I came up with the idea of just doing something much more timeless that will appeal to all ages -- just a mythical garden. A paradise garden. And out of that evolved the concept of an enormous glass roof which contains that garden under which all the other things happen. And at some point I dipped the roof -- the dome -- in the form of the toroid which for a layman I would say the shape of a doughnut so that the entire roof drains into the centre. And that meant that every time it rains -- which in Singapore is almost every day -- you're going to get torrential waterfalls coming out of that vortex.

CO: But it's not just this absolutely extraordinary waterfall -- it's all the greenery. It's the trees, and gardens, and walkways. What were you trying to create?

MS: First I was interested in the notion that you could take a busy place in an airport -- you can call it kind of a mall with hundreds of shops and all that comes with it -- and cohabitate with a magical park which is relaxing and serene and is the escape from all of that busyness. And you know people in airports they're stressed, they're in a rush -- and I thought what would be better than to create a place of total serenity. And to do that the whole topography of the building which begins with a plateau and then descends several stories down in a terrace garden all the way to what we call the Valley Park we've planted thousands of trees. And you walk through the trails and you forget you're in a city and you forget you were in an airport and you forget you're in a building. In that sense, it's completely magical.

CO: And it couldn't be further away from what happens at an airport. The tension that people are in because they're traveling and they're anxious. And so what effect do you see it have on people as they use this jewel?

MS: Firstly it's a kind of almost bizarre to see the passengers walking around with their suitcases and they're wandering about like in a daze. And the residents of Singapore who've been pouring in, they're just beside themselves. So I think it's a game changer for airports. And I think you know airports are very competitive particularly in Asia. So I'm sure they're scratching their head in Dubai and then Hong Kong -- what are we doing next? But for me as an architect this was really an opportunity to explore something that I think could be a game changer in downtown development in dense cities and show that you can have shopping and cultural facilities and cohabit them with great gardens and parks in the densest of environments.

CO: Canadians I think know you or first came to know you way back at Expo 67 when you created Habitat 67 and redefined how people might live collectively in buildings. And you've done many other very very livable places since then. You often said that architects have a deep social responsibility. How does this creation of this jewel -- as it's called -- how does it manifest that philosophy of yours?

MS: Well I think my architecture is centered about the notion of well-being. And Habitat 67 -- it was the well-being of a family or an individual in their house, in their apartment, how to make an apartment feel like you're in a house, how to give it the amenities that we use to take for granted like a garden, privacy, and just having a connection with nature. And Jewel is about the community in the city. It acknowledges that cities are dense and congested as airports are -- and that we crave for nature. And a sense of contact with nature and that has to do with light and sun but also with plant life and gardens. I just stumble this week on an article by Peter Sacks talking about how parks and gardens are essential to the health of people -- how healing they are even to people who have health issues. So in some ways it's a confirmation of the idea that if we can bring nature into our everyday environment in a big way which is what Jewel attempts to do and I think succeeds in doing, then it will be so much more wholesome and so much uplifting to people's spirits.

CO: Mr. Safdie a big congratulations on this accomplishment. It is quite magnificent. And thank you for speaking with us.

MS: Thank you very much.

JD: Israeli-Canadian Moshe Safdie is a principle at Safdie Architects, and the lead designer of the Jewel Changi Airport in Singapore. We reached Mr. Safdie in Boston.

[Music]

Pay for the music

JD: You go to the farmers' market and you're excited to see that, suddenly, kale is free. So you can take all the kale you want, it doesn't cost you a dime. So you skip around throwing bunches of kale in your reusable bag. The latest organic kale -- you don't know what it tastes like, don't even know if you're going to like it. Some classic old school kale -- the stuff you loved in high school. Unlimited free kale. It's like a dream come true. The only problem is growing kale is not free. You have to plant it. You have to do the farming stuff with it -- harvest it from the kale trees? My analogy is breaking down because I don't know how people make kale and I have only a vague idea of how people make music. But what I'm getting at is this: kale costs farmers money. That is why we pay for it. Making music also costs money. But suddenly no one wants to pay for it because streaming services are offering it for free or virtually so. Jim Bryson has accepted that. And earlier this month he uploaded a new song to his Bandcamp page -- it is called: Better On Drugs. And if you want to own it, it will cost you 30 bucks. Mr. Bryson writes quote, "Here is the what-up: it is 30 dollars as an idea of a way to tell people that I'm okay with streaming. But here is a way to contribute to the offset of the effects of all that awesome flat rate music consumption. So this smash hit is 30 dollars here. Don't think I'm an ass for doing this. I think it's actually a nice idea." It is a nice idea. And here's what you get for your 30 dollar investment: you get a very good song for sure, but you also get the knowledge that you paid someone for the music that they made. Plus, you will be delivering an overdue wakeup kale...call.

[Music]

Chief Leo Friday

JD: It is becoming a familiar scene. Water rushing through the streets and filling homes across this country. And for the people of the Kashechewan First Nation, the spring thaw is relentless. The Cree community has been flooded out nearly every year for the past 17 -- prompting mass evacuations. And the trouble goes back much longer. Chief Leo Friday says the federal government has told the community what to do -- and then broken its promises. And it started with forcing the community to move to the very land that is now under water. Here is Chief Friday speaking on Parliament Hill today.

SOUNDCLIP

CHIEF LEO FRIDAY: They tell the government or the commissioners that they came in 1956 and 57 -- they didn't want to go where the place that they are in now. The commissioners say this is the place you shall be moved. And this is that dollar that we'll give you to move in there. And if you move into that place you will be given the school, the hospital, buildings, houses. That's what they were told. And that...didn't happen. And everything that we're told never happened. Even if we signed a little of commitment and little of agreements, it doesn't follow through. It's just a good signature and a good talk and good sounding -- and that's it. And after that we are quiet and the governments say they are quiet -- let's forget about them.

JD: Chief Leo Friday was speaking on Parliament Hill today. For years the federal government has promised to relocate the northern Ontario community of Kashechewan of 2,500 people. Today, the Minister of Indigenous Services, Seamus O'Regan reiterated the government's commitment to that plan.

[Music]

Part 3: China death penalty

China death penalty

Guest: Guy Saint-Jacques

JD: Another Canadian is facing the death penalty in China. A Chinese court has sentenced Fan Wei to death. He is a Canadian citizen accused of running a global drug operation in southern China selling meth. We do not know much else about him. In a separate case in January a Canadian named Robert Lloyd Schellenberg was sentenced to death on drug charges in a sudden retrial. To a lot of people that sentencing seemed like retaliation from Beijing for Canada's arrest of while Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou. Guy Saint-Jacques is Canada's former ambassador to China. We reached him St. Lambert, Quebec.

CO: Mr. Saint-Jacques have you any reason to suspect that the court in China has issued this death sentence for political reasons?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Well in this case I'm not entirely sure. Drug offences are very serious crimes in China. They apply the death penalty to try to prevent people from getting into the manufacturing and the trafficking of drugs. This means that there are a few elements that I find puzzling in this case. The first is that it's a case that has been going on for a long time. It started in 2012 and it's very unusual that it would take so long to come to the final hearing with the sentence that is ended up.

CO: Is there any chance that he could escape this death sentence?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: No. And in fact the other factor that is preoccupying this case is that he was given a death sentence -- not a suspended death sentence. Two other of the accused have got suspended death sentences those sentences mean that if they behave properly while they are in jail, their death sentence will be commuted to a life sentence. So that means that Mr. Fan now can appeal -- he has 10 days to do that. I suspect of course that he will want to do that. We don't know when this case will be heard but it's extremely rare that the sentence would be overturned. You know once you are accused in the Chinese system you are found guilty in 99.9 percent of the cases. Also what I would like to know is how does this case compare with other similar drug cases -- is it of the same magnitude? If it is not, then it would be a confirmation that there was political interference.

CO: As a former ambassador to China have you had any cases like this? Did you have anything similar? And I guess I'm asking is there anything Canada can actually do at this point to prevent it?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Unfortunately I had to deal with two cases of -- again -- of Chinese-Canadians who had been arrested for drug trafficking. Both receive a death sentence. It was not a suspended death sentence. And despite all our interventions including a letter -- a personal letter -- by former Prime Minister Stephen Harper to President Xi Jinping to ask that the execution of one of the two be delayed or they not proceed with it. And despite also the pleas of the former governor general Mr. Johnson they proceeded eventually with the two executions. And so again because of the nature of the accusation, the nature of the crime, unfortunately we have to expect that Mr. Fan will be executed at some point in the midterm.

CO: We already have another Canadian Robert Lloyd Schellenberg who is on death row in China. He's had the death penalty for a drug related case. And his sudden retrial in January that wasn't expected. Then of course the other two Canadians Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor who are detained for vague national security allegations. And those appear to be in retaliation for Canada's arrest of Meng Wanzhou. If it's not about that -- if it's not about that arrest -- what kind of signal is China possibly sending right now?

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Well in the case of Mr. Fan it's sending the signal that of course drug crimes continue to be very serious offences. But it's clear that if you look at the case of Mr. Kovrig, Mr. Spavor, and Mr. Schellenberg those are all in direct retaliation for the arrest of Mrs. Meng. And unfortunately the bilateral crisis continues to worsen. We are seeing more and more impact on the trade side. And I'm quite worried about what's happening right now.

CO: So you're talking about canola, then there's peas, and soybeans. These all been targeted in addition to these cases of the detentions.

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Yes correct. And on top of that I learned last week that the central government in China has asked all Chinese provinces to report on ongoing transactions with Canada. Presumably this is to identify other targets that they can use. And if you look at the pattern of the last few months every time there was an important milestone with the case of Mrs. Meng they announce additional measures. The next judicial hearing is scheduled for May the 8th -- and I suspect that they will announce further measures. And we have to come to the conclusion that the quiet diplomacy pursued by Canada has not produced any result. It has not led to the release of Mr. Kovrig and Mr. Spavor. We are now starting to suffer a great deal on the commercial side. And I think it's the time for Canada on one end to continue to seek support from our allies, to remind them that what's happening to us could happen to them in the future, but also to announce a number of other measures.

CO: And just on that Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland has said today that the situation, the relationship, between Canada and China is very difficult right now. She says the most difficult part for her right now are these detentions. And she believes that she has a strong coalition of international partners who are all demanding the liberation of these Canadians. What more could Canada do at this point? I guess to send the message that they're not going to pull back on the arrest of Meng Wanzhou but at the same time to not be bullied.

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Yep. And I think this is the only language that China understands. You have to be strong. You have to be firm. I think that Canada should announce now that we will no longer pursue the idea of a free trade agreement with China. Also the additional resources that were announced in the last year federal budget that were devoted to China should be relocated to other markets in Asia. And it would send a message to China that we will no longer take this lying down.

CO: All right we will leave it there. We'll be following this story. But I appreciate speaking with you tonight Mr. Saint-Jacques. Thank you.

GUY SAINT-JACQUES: Thank you very much.

JD: Guy Saint-Jacques is Canada's former ambassador to China. We reached him in St. Lambert, Quebec.

[Music]

John Singleton

JD: An inspiration. A mentor. And a "giant among us." These are just some of the tributes offered since film director John Singleton died yesterday -- following complications from a stroke suffered nearly two weeks ago. Mr. Singleton was 51-years-old. At an age when many fresh out of college kids are unsure about their career path, Mr. Singleton wrote and directed his first feature film "Boyz N The Hood." It was released in 1991. The ground-breaking drama about real life in LA's black neighbourhoods earned the then 24-year-old a best director nod from the Oscars -- making him the youngest person ever to get an Oscar nomination in that category and the first African-American. In this clip from the movie, Furious Styles, played by Laurence Fishburne -- tries to warn of the dangers of gentrification.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: I want y'all to take a look at that sign up there. See what it says? Cash for your home. You know what that is? Built. For.

VOICE 2: A billboard.

VOICE 1: What are you all? Amos and Andy? Are you Stepin and he's Fetchit? I'm talking about the message. What it stands for. It's called gentrification. It's what happens when the property value of a certain area is brought down. You listening? They bring the property value down. They can buy the land at a lower price. Then they move all the people out, raise the property value, and sell it at a profit. Now what we need to do is we need to keep everything in our neighbourhood, everything -- black. Black owned with black money.

VOICE 3: Ain't nobody from outside bringing down the property value. It's these folk shooting each other and selling that crack rock and...

VOICE 1: Well how do you think the crack rock gets into the country? We don't own any planes. We don't own no ships. I know every time you turn on a TV that's what you see: black people selling the rock, pushing the rock. Yeah I know. But that wasn't a problem as long as it was here. Wasn't a problem until it was in Iowa and it showed up on Wall Street where there are hardly any black people. If you want to talk about guns, why is it that there's a gun shop on almost every corner in this community?

VOICE 3: Why?

VOICE 1: I'll tell you why. For the same reason that there's a liquor store on almost every corner in the black community. Why? They want us to kill ourselves. Yeah. The best way you can destroy people -- you take away their ability to reproduce themselves.

JD: John Singleton would go on to direct and produce films such as "Higher Learning" "Poetic Justice" and "Hustle & Flow" -- and launch the movie careers of Regina King, Janet Jackson, and Terrence Howard. In his last interview, a roundtable for the Hollywood Reporter, Mr. Singleton spoke about his principles as a filmmaker.

SOUNDCLIP

JOHN SINGLETON: I think part of my reputation -- comes back because you know I started in features -- that I don't like is that I'm some like black militant guy, like really serious, and like I don't like white people and all that...I think I'm pretty charismatic you know dude. I just don't like people trying to subvert my vision of what I'm thinking you know. I'm kind of a goofball -- I'm funny, I'm self-effacing, and everything, but I'm very serious about telling the narrative that hasn't been told before. And what I don't like is when I have people who are not from various culture that I'm trying to tell a story dictate to me what they think it is. Where I'm from -- you know I grew up in an area called 107th Hoover Crip's so I'm like that to the executives like you're not going [bleep] tell me what my story is. I don't feel there's a lot of people of colour in the business that feel comfortable saying it's going to be like this -- I don't care what the hell you say. And I started when I was 22-years-old. So it's like what the hell can you tell me? It's you know like you said that this wasn't going to work -- and it worked. And then you said this stuff wouldn't work -- and it all worked.

JD: That was John Singleton in a discussion with the Hollywood Reporter earlier this month. The writer and director died yesterday. He was 51 years old.

[Music]

Carles Puigdemont

JD: Carles Puigdemont is not coming to Canada anytime soon. As you may have heard on the news, the Catalan separatist leader was recently refused entry into Canada. He was granted a permit called an electronic travel authorization to visit Quebec in early April. But then just before his departure, the permit was revoked with no explanation. Now people are asking the federal government why Mr. Puigdemont was barred. Here's Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen earlier today responding to questions from reporters on Parliament Hill.

SOUNDCLIP

REPORTER: Why not intervene to allow him to come to Canada?

AHMED HUSSEN: People need to understand that Canadians can be confident that we have an immigration system that has an independent well-trained immigration officers who make independent decisions based on the evidence and the information that their clients submit to them. If foreign nationals or an immigration client who wants to visit Canada gets a refusal, they can reapply. And they can provide new information to be considered by a separate immigration officer independent of any political interference.

REPORTER: I mean we don't know why this person was refused. But one of the possible explanations is because he's been subject to an international arrest warrant. But we all know that Spain is playing political games with its judicial system with this guy. So again are we not playing the game of Spain by not intervening in this case?

AHMED HUSSEN: I think you appreciate the fact that I can't go into the details of a specific case. What I can assure you is that our system is based on our individual immigration officers looking at a case and looking at the application based on its own merits. And I'm confident this is the same in this case. To suggest that there's other considerations that are brought to bear, it's just not true.

REPORTER: That's not what I am saying. What I'm saying is that this person has been the subject of a judicial warrant and that's probably why a civil servant somewhere in Canada said well you don't qualify according to rules...

AHMED HUSSEN: No I understand but you used the word probably. So we don't know what the reasons were...

REPORTER: Is that a motivation to refuse the person entry in Canada?

AHMED HUSSEN: There's a whole host of considerations that are brought to bear. They can reapply and they can provide more information. And I have full confidence in that process.

REPORTER: Can you intervene? Do you have the power to intervene as a minister or not? No technical question? I don't see why you're such in a hurry.

JD: Reporters on Parliament Hill today scrumming the federal Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen. And Mr. Puigdemont's lawyer in Quebec, Stephane Handfield, says no reason was given for revoking the travel authorization so he will go to federal court to find out -- a process that can take several months.

[Music]

Toronto basketball hoops

Guest: Luke Galati

JD: He is sure of their net worth. So Luke Galati wants the Toronto District School Board to leave those basketball hoops up. Mr. Galati is concerned that some Toronto schools including his former high school take down their outdoor hoops after school hours. And that leaves young people with nowhere to play ball. So he has started a petition. Luke Galati is also an associate producer of the Toronto Raptors' documentary series "Open Gym." We reached him in Toronto.

CO: Luke why do you want schools to keep their basketball hoops up after school?

LUKE GALATI: I want schools to keep basketball hoops up after school hours because it can change lives. Basketball is a sport that is emblematic of so much in the city. And by schools taking away basketball nets, it's sending a message of devaluing young people in the city.

CO: Why do these schools take them down?

LG: Many people say it's a safety concern. There are noise complaints of kids playing. And I just think this is unacceptable because I know those nets in my neighbourhood made such a big difference after school hours.

CO: So that's what you would do -- right after school in evening and weekends you would go over and shoot hoops.

LG: Yeah. That was like a real community hub you know. Like that basketball court it was a real humble basketball court -- so simple -- like it was just a wall and then a hoop. It didn't even have like mesh most of the time but it didn't really matter to us. And yeah it was like home for us -- like it was just a real place where we could come together. And you know my neighbourhood is so special because there's so many different socioeconomic backgrounds, there's people of different ethnicities, different cultures, and you know the basketball court was like a great equalizer and somewhere that we could all just do something that we all love and do something together. And I feel like since that's been taken away by the school by not keeping their nets up after three o'clock and by schools across Toronto not repairing their nets -- it's really taking away a vital resource that we all need.

CO: You started your conversation -- well this petition is to the Toronto District School Board, right?

LG: Yeah but I guess through this like I've had like an outcry of like people from across the city and even beyond the city's borders. People who are saying yeah this has happening in my neighbourhood for years like this is like BS to put it frank. You know sometimes as Malcolm Gladwell would say you just need a small thing for a tipping point to happen. And I feel like definitely in terms of this conversation this could be it.

CO: But you started your conversation or you've had it with your former high school Earl Grey Senior, right?

LG: Yeah Earl Grey was my middle school -- so grade 7 and 8. And then also Riverdale was my high school and they actually have the same policy. And it's funny every single school that I've ever attended, they all have the same policy -- they all take their nets down after the school bell rings. And you know that leaves kids without anywhere to play. And I think it's wrong. Having a place to play outside is something that's so important because it's accessible and it's free you know. And I've had some people they've been saying 'oh well why does that matter? They should get a gym membership -- oh they could play inside.' But you know by having that freedom and independence it really helps develop the whole self in an individual especially during their adolescence and pivotal years in their life.

CO: But it was not always this right? I mean obviously you played in the schoolyard. These are schools you mentioned that are in my neighbourhood in Toronto -- and up until recently there were hoops, the kids were there -- they were playing. So why did they start taking them down? There must have been something that triggered that.

LG: Well for the school that I'm referring to -- Earl Grey -- actually they did have this policy in place. The thing is there are three nets there and one of them which was the one we would all play out because it's permanently fixed -- it was there for like two decades. It eventually broke after having a great life and wear and tear. But then the other nets they were inconsistently taken down. So those ones we couldn't rely on to be there but then it seems like ever since that one broke, they're all just taken down. So you know it seems like as a society and as a city we're going backwards.

CO: But some of the schools -- what they're saying is that well it costs money to replace that. And maybe not a lot of money -- but they're strapped for cash, they don't have much wiggle room. And so if they as frequently as some of them say happens that the nets get torn down -- but you say you don't really need the nets -- but then the hoops get bent or broken. So how can they afford to keep replacing equipment that keeps getting vandalized?

LG: To me that sounds like a big excuse. You know like the hoop near my house is the exact same one -- it was permanently fixed, it wasn't removable like the nets are now. And with those nets they would stay there and it was there for 20 years. So I think this is very much a coded issue if you look at it. People say words like oh vandalism happens, mischief -- but in my eyes it's pretty clear what they mean.

CO: What do they mean?

LG: I think it's very much an issue of race and class. People associate a certain type of people, a certain culture -- largely immigrants -- with basketball. And I think that it's very much a coded way of saying we don't want those types of people getting together and that's wrong and that's not the Toronto that I love.

CO: There have been a number of other criticisms about the basketball rims in the schoolyards. And going back awhile I'm thinking of former Toronto city councillor Giorgio Mammoliti who claimed that the basketball rooms actually encouraged drug dealers to be in his ward. What do you say to him?

LG: I would say to that, that's a very short sighted, narrow minded, uninformed and very ignorant point of view. It's very much a way of keeping certain people who have been disenfranchised in a society down. And you know sometimes we wonder why so many young people aren't politically engaged, they feel disempowered and they feel like they don't have a voice within public discourse, and you take away their spaces. And it is important to note that kids in the neighbourhood, anyone in the neighbourhood who wants to play basketball, residents as well -- why should they have to walk by public space with nets that are physically taken away from them and broken? You know this causes so many problems for so many people -- people who I know, people I call my friends, my family, my greatest mentors. Basketball is represented a way out of their current situation -- their life problems. And by taking away free alternatives and like something that so tangibly there and it's so visible -- to take that away has real consequences as a society.

CO: What kind of response are you getting to your petition?

LG: It's been overwhelming. And the city realizes that they need this. We need to take back our spaces and people are realizing that basketball is not a crime.

CO: We will leave it there. And we'll be following your progress on this Luke. Thank you.

LG: Thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

JD: Luke Galati is an associate producer on the Toronto Raptors documentary series "Open Gym." We reached Mr. Galati in Toronto.

[Music]

Rigolet

JD: It is not the price of gas that has the Labrador town of Rigolet seeing red. It is the price of gas stations. Rigolet is a flying community in Labrador. The town council is deep in debt after running the only gas station in town for the past 13 years. So now it is walking away and leaving the pumps to run dry at the end of May and hoping that someone will step in before that happens. Especially since the next closest gas station is six hours away by boat. Community councillor Chelsea Morris spoke with Janice Goudie of CBC Radio's "Labrador Morning" about the decision.

SOUNDCLIP

CHELSEA MORRIS: We are pretty much raising our white flag and we need somebody else because this is not typically a town's responsibility. This is a personal responsibility or a business responsibility. And our town is 100 percent going to suffer if we continue down this path. We've been advised by our financial department that if we keep going this way we will be bankrupt.

JANICE GOUDIE: But if you don't then what are people going to do for gas?

CHELSEA MORRIS: I mean I'm in the community as well. I'm going to suffer just as much as anybody else. I'm not any farther ahead. The town is no farther ahead. We're hoping that somebody is going to take it over. This is a problem that the whole community is going to have. Our whole community is going to struggle. This is not simply people wanting gas to go out and vote. I mean they need fuel for their homes and they fuel for the ambulance. They need fuel for getting freight for our groceries. I mean this is a problem that's going to affect the whole community.

JD: That was Rigolet Community Councillor Chelsea Morris on CBC Radio's "Labrador Morning." The remote town is about to lose its only gas station unless someone buys the business or another level of government takes it over.

[Music]

Jeeti Pooni Interview excerpt

JD: On the surface, Jeeti Pooni grew up as a normal, happy, immigrant kid in rural British Columbia in the 1970s and 1980s. She was also harboring however a dark secret. Jeeti Pooni is the main subject of a new NFB film called "Because We Are Girls." It tells the difficult story of three sisters who were subjected to years of sexual abuse by the same family member. Sisters who years later took their abuser to court. The film is premiering at Toronto's Hot Docs Film Festival. And we will air the feature conversation tomorrow. Here is an excerpt in which Carol asks Jeeti Pooni why it took so long for the truth to come out.

SOUNDCLIP

JEETI POONI: As girls if something broke around the house when we were young, we were punished. My dad punished us physically. So there was always that fear of oh I'm going to get in trouble. Compounded by the culture of what we had seen in the Bollywood movies and what I had heard about other girls in our communities being shipped off.

CO: They got sent back to India. Didn't they?

JEETI POONI: Yeah you get shipped off or you could be killed. So that would have been my fate. So it was not safe to tell anyone. And eventually what happened was because I was groomed from such a young age -- you are made to feel that I had something to do with this. So I was to blame.

CO: When you and your sisters describe what this experience was like reviewing what it was like as children you do such an extraordinary job of saying all the reasons why you internalize it because to begin to tell anybody then -- what then happens? All the consequences come tumbling down on you, don't they?

JEETI POONI: Well so many consequences. How is it going to affect so and so's life? How is it going to affect the family honor? You automatically know it's never going to be questioned. What is this man who's almost 10 years older you know than myself. What was he doing this to her for? Right? It's always the reverse. You're then to be blamed. So just keep your mouth shut.

JD: Jeeti Pooni is the subject of a new NFP film called "Because We Are Girls." The film premieres at Toronto's Hot Docs Film Festival tomorrow. And we will air the entire feature interview on tomorrow's program.

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April 30, 2019 Episode Transcript

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