Note: Transcripts may contain errors. If you wish to re-use all, or part of, a transcript, please contact CBC for permission. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. Copyright © CBC 2019

The Current Transcript for April 30, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

[Music: Theme]

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: I noticed it quite a bit. Remarks from fans and especially players on the opposition, but again I just turned my ears off to it and just concentrated on playing hockey and trying to be the best player I could be.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: He arrived wearing a fedora, a stately gentleman in his 80s, ready to reminisce about a time in his life full of promise and laden with racism that he chose to ignore. Willie O'Ree was 22-years-old when he made hockey history, the first player of colour in the NHL. A kid who began playing hockey in his frozen backyard in Fredericton. It would be another 16 years before the NHL would sign another black player, but despite the pride in playing with the Boston Bruins, despite his love of the game, he had to make a conscious choice to ignore the racism, the taunts, the attitudes, the physical aggression. He knows it is still happening for a new generation of athletes and so he works with young kids from diverse backgrounds to inspire and encourage. Willie O'Ree joins me in half an hour. And does he have stories to tell. And after that, it was one year after the Columbine High School massacre that the movie star turned NRA president, Charlton Heston, uttered that famous phrase vowing never to give up guns in the USA.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Those five words issue an irresistible call to us all from my cold dead hands.

AMT: These days the NRA'ss grip appears to be weakening. Top players in the organization are targeting each other. New York State officials are investigating finances and the lobby to restrict firearms is outgunning the NRA in fundraising. In an hour, we're asking how this ricochets on U.S. politics. But we're starting with concerns over the devastation that lingers for those already overwhelmed by rising floodwaters.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: It's very emotional. First it's seeing the water then they see their homes. A lot of people don't have insurance, so that's tough. They're tired. Yeah, it's very tough.

AMT: I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

Back To Top »

As floodwaters wreak havoc in Eastern Canada, impact on mental health can be 'profound,' says sociologist

Guests: Randy Rae, Joanne Veldman, Caroline McDonald-Harker

[Music: Theme]

I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

Clip of woman discovering her flooded home.

AMT: You might have seen that video yesterday. It's Valerie Deslauriers sobbing. What you see is her turquoise kayak the front of it making its way through murky brown water that has filled her home. She goes through the kitchen. She heads toward the living room in the kayak. She along with 5000 other residents of her Montreal neighborhood had minutes to leave after a dike burst on Saturday night and flooded the area. Her suburb of Sainte-Marthe-sur-le-Lac was one of the hardest hit over the weekend. 1500 more residents evacuated their homes the following day. Today flooding continues to affect thousands of people across Quebec Ontario and New Brunswick as waters rise to record levels. 2000 military personnel have been called in to help keep the waters back and to lend a hand to volunteers evacuating homes. The physical damage caused by the floods is stark an unmissable, but the emotional toll of escaping them is harder to see. Randy Rae had to leave his home after officials with the township of Laurentian Valley, which borders the Ottawa River, declared a state of emergency. We have reached Randy Rae in Pembroke, Ontario. Hi.

RANDY RAE: Hello.

AMT: What were you thinking. I don't know if you saw that tape yesterday, but just like Valerie Deslauriers crying as she kayaked through her flooded house yesterday.

RR: Actually I did see it on the news at my parents house.

AMT: And what did you think?

RR: Well when you see stuff like on the news it just it raises emotions for yourself because I picture myself kind of taking my canoe away from my place and kind of looking back and now that I'm away from my home I'm pretty sure we're the same way I can take my canoe probably inside. It's just it's devastating. I'm seeing I'm not there. I don't even know what to expect once I go back and it seems her sobbing. I, you see your stuff floating. You see your stuff ruined. It's just a very sad overwhelming feeling.

AMT: What was the water like Randy when you left your home?

RR: The day I left actually I had planned on on staying, and I didn't even know they had declared a state of emergency because it was only done the day before and I had no I didn't have access to the Internet, to any news. So I had planned on staying but then later that afternoon the water just got so high at my place - in 2017 I didn't have any water come in my place at all. And the day I left I had over two feet of water in the back room and it was just coming up to my kitchen door, up to my furnace vents because my my place is raised on, kind of like stilts almost. And so the water was just, just below that level when I left, and hearing from texts from friends and neighbors and watching the news I know I'm almost certain, by now it's inside my place as well.

AMT: You say you left in a canoe?

RR: I, yeah. I had to leave by canoe. On Friday I believe it was I was able to get in with chest waders. I had my parents drop me off and I've got in with chest waders but by the next day already. I couldn't make it out even in chest waders it was so deep coming up my driveway.

AMT: What'd you take with you in that canoe?

RR: Actually that's kind of a funny story because like I said I wasn't really prepared to leave right then, I was more getting stuff up on higher level inside the house. And the things you think of grabbing freely because I have a daughter. I get visitations with, and so I just quick grabbed a backpack, change of clothes, I boxed a few of my groceries and my daughter has a pet unicorn. She just loves it and if anything ever happened to that she'd be devastated. So I paddled out with a big purple unicorn at the front of my canoe and just a few belongings.

AMT: And that's it. What did you do with the stuff in the house? Did you manage to get anything higher? Like what did you try to do to save stuff?

RR: I did and actually what happened, like we were sort of basing the levels on the flood in 2017 because I just moved in before that flood came. So we sort of got everything up even on my outside sheds up on shelving my tools my stuff. And we started sandbagging. So once when stuff's inside those levels you can't get back in to raise them up higher. They're there they're in there. They're sandbagged. And then the water came up past those sandbags and the lower back room. I've raised everything up there but every day the water came up so much you were just scurrying trying to raise up higher and higher. And I got a lot of my stuff up to the very very top loft and left a few things on the lower floor. But I'm sure some of that is submerged now because... It was just, you couldn't prepare for it. The more you did the more it just came up and you just had this almost a sense of loss. You couldn't do anything.

AMT: What do you worry most about what you might have lost?

RR: Everything my daughter and I had together. Like every picture, every craft, everything that belonged to her and I. Like TVs, furniture, stuff like that I mean that's all replaceable but every memory I have because even the day I left I look back and I could picture myself sitting in that corner you know playing making stuff painting and just the photos the the paintings she did for me, personal stuff like that was her out because I only see her a couple of days a week so you can't replace that stuff. That's just everything I have with my daughter and I.

AMT: You hang on to that stuff. How old is she?

RR: She turns seven in March.

AMT: And she wasn't with you that the day you left.

RR: No that's the worst thing because in 2017 was the first time I experienced something like that and I wasn't able to see her for well over a week, almost two weeks. So this time when we heard the flood might be coming she said daddy will I be able to see you? And I said well pumpkin you know I'll do everything I can to you to visit with you whatever, but this was just so bad that I couldn't see her. And yeah, I don't know.

AMT: It's really a hard time.

RR: It's even hard to talk to somebody about it because you think you've got in your mind what you want to tell somebody. But every time I try to tell my story to somebody else you just get another emotion or when you're visualizing the inside of the place you just get so sad. So. Your emotions change every day. Like you. When I got out even I thought you know I'm good now. But you watch the news and you watch even other people's stories. It's it upsets you as well so other people's stories affect you and just even leaving. I have neighbors that are up on higher ground and just paddling througg, you know, they all came outside and they waved and this of you leading this way. I was just thinking about people who are still down there. You almost feel guilty that you left and they're still there struggling.

AMT: Well Randy I'm going to talk to our next guests a little bit about the emotions that come with all of that water. Thanks for speaking with me. I hope you're going to be OK.

RR: Thank you.

RR: That's Randy Rae. He's a resident of the Laurentian Valley township. He had to leave his home. We reached him in Pembroke, Ontario.

AMT: In Ottawa teams of people have been going door to door to help affected residents cope with the stress of living through a flood. Joann Feldman is a nurse with the Ottawa Public Health she's been out checking on people in her own community. She's in Dunrobin, Ontario. Hi Joanne.

Joanne Veldman: Good morning Anna Maria.

AMT: Dunrobin isn't that where there were tornadoes not that long ago. Yes and flooding before like one of the one was lost flooding there.

Joanne Veldman: The flooding was in 2017 and then in September of 2018. Dunrobin and other parts of Ottawa but Dunrobin was hit with the tornado and now we're dealing with the floods of 2019.

AMT: I remember the pictures from the tornado and now this. How are people coping? What what are they like emotionally when you see people right now?

Joanne Veldman: Well it's interesting. I mean I've been going door to door since Thursday when public health joined the City of Ottawa wellness check team which is emergency services, paramedic, police, fire, and public health. And every day is different for people. And everybody's different I'm seeing a range of emotions. There is there's a lot of heaviness in people but we have people who are pulling from their experience in 2017 with the floods. They know what worked two years ago. They're helping them feel more prepared this time but others are new to the community - just started ranting maybe not as familiar with well systems and septics and thought it was a beautiful place to be for summertime and beaches and they're just completely overwhelmed with having to learn about the risks that are added to because of the flood. So, I mean that's what we try to do as a wellness team. Public health really wants to protect people's emotional well-being, but it's also by protecting and promoting - like to contain the issues that the flood causes. Because what we want to do in public health is is talk to them about reducing and eliminating additional risk so that they don't have other stressors being - bombarding them. In addition to the approaching waters or being surrounded by the water so that's where we go as a team.

AMT: And so what do you tell people?

Joanne Veldman: We tell people - we start with the basics. We say first of all we're not here to slow you down. We're here to make sure that you're safe. That if interventions are effective, they're in line with the accurate up to date information that we have through the city. So we're trying to give them the face of the city right at the door. So understanding they're in a time crunch. They want to focus on the water. We want to make sure that they're not going to get an infection from contaminated water. So we're going to speak to them briefly about their well their subject encourage hand hygiene. We want to make sure that they're not going to have a tragedy from an injury by staying away from the water's edge, hypothermia - the generators that they're running - let's make sure that there's no carbon monoxide risk from those generators. And then we get into the importance of staying well in an extremely devastating circumstance. And that's often like your first caller said when the tears will come. Because they're okay talking about the specifics the practical and they're there on those. But we're just double checking. And then that's when they become vulnerable emotionally and sometimes people said it's - like yesterday I would talk to them and they would say I said I was fine yesterday but today I'm a mess, because I think I have to lose my home now; I have to evacuate.

AMT: And I imagine people aren't getting any sleep.

Joanne Veldman: Sleep is the one thing we're really really encouraging because that, you're right. That is a real risk for people. How can you sleep when you want to make sure that if you're pumping out on you know sometimes single or multiple generators or the you know the water is changing so quickly you have to constantly adapt. And if you sleep then there's a risk that it gets ahead of you. But we're telling people you know take care of yourself; accept help. It's a devastating situation. You're going to be in this for the long run. Sleep helps your emotional well-being. I mean we went from the city of Ottawa after the tornado we were trained from public health in psychological first aid training and we learned a lot about working through that sort of psychological shock state, and saying you know recognizing it's completely okay to not feel okay. So even though it is very hard take the time to get chunks of sleep. Take the time to eat well; not just snacks on the go but some real meals. You can get those meals at the Community Support Centres. So we're really there to say these are what are going to help you stay strong, to keep dealing with this flood - as an individual isn't a family as a community. And here's how you access those resources. This is where they are in the community.

AMT: OK. Joanne it's good to hear that you're out there. Thank you for talking with me today. Thank you.

AMT: That is Joanne Veldman she's a nurse with Ottawa Public Health. And she joined us from Dunrobin, Ontario where she lives. The site of sandbags and houses underwater will bring a lot of memories back for residents of High River, Alberta. Back in June of 2013 that community was inundated with water. The entire town of about 30,000 people was ordered to leave. Even though it's been almost six years since that traumatic event, my next guest says the mental health effects lingered for years.

AMT: Caroline McDonald-Harker is a sociology professor at Mount Royal University and a faculty affiliate with the Center for Community Disaster Research. We've reached her just outside of Calgary. Hi.

CAROLINE MCDONALD-HARKER: Hi.

AMT: How deeply did the High River floods affect the people who lived through them?

CMH: Well it definitely had both short and long term impacts. What my research findings have shown is that you know major disasters have not only devastating impacts on physical infrastructure like homes buildings and communities but they also have long term psychosocial impacts on individuals. And in fact the mental health effects following disaster are so profound that they last much longer than the visible destruction caused by a disaster like a flood. So over half of the hundreds of families that I interviewed as part of my research were still suffering with some long term effects, even five years after the flood.

AMT: Well that's really something to think about and you were looking at families and children. Tell me what you heard from the kids you interviewed.

CMH: Right. So you know the entire family unit was impacted when it came to their psychological health often leading to things like relationship conflict and strain among parents. But among children they were mostly impacted by psychosomatic effects. So a lot of the kids you know had nightmares they no longer wanted to sleep in their bedroom on their own. They wanted to sleep in their parents room because they were fearful that a another flood would take place. And many of the adolescents who slept downstairs no longer wanted to sleep downstairs because they were worried that the floodwaters would enter into their bedrooms. So some very very serious mental health impacts and then challenges including things like PTSD, anxiety and depression.

AMT: Did you see similar impacts from the Fort McMurray fire?

CMH: Absolutely, yes. So I'm also currently conducting a study there and what I saw in both of these studies is that it takes several years before people who experienced a disaster even notice the mental toll it has taken on them. So in the first few years following a disaster most people focus on things like rebuilding their homes and getting their properties back in order and settling back into their communities as they try to adjust to this this new normal that they're attempting to create for themselves. So oftentimes people don't deal with some of the psychological effects that they're experiencing and they keep putting it off thinking that if they focus on rebuilding and getting their homes back in order then the mental health challenges will go away - but they often don't. And unfortunately at that point there's much less funding resources and services available to deal with some of these long term mental health impacts because most of these additional supports are no longer available. And regardless of the type of disaster whether that be a flood or a wildfire the impacts are the same. And it's very important that we not only focus on the physical infrastructure but also in people's mental health and well-being, which is something that we have ignored for far too long.

AMT: And so as you watch communities in eastern Canada go through this flooding that is so severe, what are the lessons they should learn and we should learn as a wider society from what you're learning from the people who went through these disasters in Alberta?

CMH: Yes. So I definitely recommend that people seek out support for their mental health and well-being early on if they need it both for adults and children and adolescents because if one individual is impacted in the family everyone is and I also recommend that parents be open with their children and avoid making unrealistic promises like saying oh you know another disaster won't happen again in your lifetime because that really diminishes children's trust in their parents as none of us can really predict whether or not another disaster will happen and in fact they are continuing to occur and they're likely to increase. So rather I recommend that parents can say to their children that they don't know if another disaster will happen again but that they do know that they can have a plan as a family. And I think it's important whether people live near a flood zone or not to be prepared, to have a plan in place for their family so that if they do experience some of these risks that they're not left floundering and wondering what to do and in many ways that helps build resilience among individuals.

AMT: Well and it's you know, it's so likely these events will become more frequent. You made the point this is something we didn't even talk about at one point.

CMH: Absolutely. And it's important to have those conversations and for people to think about what they would do in the event. So planning and preparing, it goes a long way for helping people to feel more secure and not be shocked. I mean we teach children what do you do in the event of you know a stranger who approaches you. I think it's important that we start having these conversations with our children, what do we do in the event that we face or experience a disaster?

AMT: Caroline, good to talk to you. Thanks for your insights.

CMH: No problem at all. My pleasure. Bye bye. Bye bye.

AMT: That is Caroline McDonald-Harker. She's a sociology professor at Mount Royal University and a faculty affiliate with the Center for Community Disaster Research. We reached her just outside of Calgary. Let us know what you think about what our guests have been talking about about the emotions that come with disaster and the mental health issues that maybe should be anticipated, so that they can be confronted. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent. And stay with us, the news is next and when we're back, Willie O'Ree, the first black player in the NHL, long after hanging up his skates is still making history. He's a hockey hall of famer and he's my guest in our next half hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

How former Bruins winger Willie O'Ree kept his vision impairment a secret from the NHL

Guests: Willie O’Ree

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: Still to come, the National Rifle Association in the U.S. is no stranger to being in the crosshairs, but now the group is turning on itself. The all out civil war inside the NRA that could turn explosive for American politics in half an hour. But first, meet the NHLer who skated right through the colour barrier.

SOUNDCLIP

[NHL commentary]

VOICE: In 1961 I was playing against the Chicago Blackhawks and this player comes and gives me a two hander across the ankles and he made a couple of racial remarks and he comes out from my blind side and I can't see him and he holds about six inches out of his stick and he buttends me in the mouth. Splits my nose, splits my lip, knocks my two front teeth out. He just stood there and laughed. Both benches emptied. We were both thrown out of the game. I went in the dressing room and after they stitched me up, I wanted to come back out and sit on the bench with the players, but the fans were so irrate that there could be bodily harm to me. So I remained in the dressing room the entire game.

AMT: That's a scene from Willie, a new documentary about the life and career of Willie O'Ree. And it gives you a sense of what he had to overcome to become the first black player in the National Hockey League. Willie O'Ree played just 45 games in the NHL over two seasons, but his impact did not end there. At the age of 83, he continues to work with the league to share his love of the game with young people from diverse backgrounds. Last November he was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Willie O'Ree is with me in our Toronto studio. Hello and welcome.

WILLIE O'REE: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

AMT: I'm watching your face as you listen to that clip and you're remembering back. Tell me what was going through your head as you listened to it.

WILLIE O'REE: Well you know it was an incident that happened and I knew that I was probably going to be faced with the you know racism prejudice and bigotry and ignorance and but the thing was I just wanted to play hockey and stay focused on the game. But this this individual player just stood there and he made a couple racial remarks and then he just stood there and laughed. It wasn't the remarks that he made it was just that he he looked at me like I wasn't going to do anything in and at that time I had to make a decision whether I was going to engage you know in a fight with him or just back off. And I says if I back off, this is going to happen again. So I got into an altercation and you know we both thrown out the game and I go in the dressing room and I kind of meditated for about four or five minutes and I told myself Willie if you're going to leave the game you're going to leave it because you don't have the skills and the ability to play anymore. I said you're not going to leave it because players are trying to you know get you away from your game. So I made up the decision that I was gonna stay and it was the right decision that I made.

AMT: So it galvanized you, but it was hard.

WILLIE O'REE: It was hard. Yeah it was hard and it was focused on me because of Mike because of my color and you know I had I have had incidents before and you know name calling and and things of that nature but you know thanks to my older brother who was not only my brother and my friend but he he was my mentor and taught me a lot of things that I would need to know if I was going to choose hockey as a career and he says well he says you're going to be exposed to racism and you know prejudice and bigotry and ignorance from from people. But he says I think you have a strong attitude that you want to play the sport and be the best player that you can be and I think that stayed with me all the years I played. Things that I remembered.

AMT: How common was the racist abuse during your career from the players and the fans?

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah it was and not in Canada because back then there were only six teams in the National Hockey League. It was called the Original Six. There was Toronto and Montreal from Canada and then Detroit, Boston, New York and Chicago. But when I came to the States I noticed it quite a bit. Remarks from fans and especially players on the opposition, but again I just turned my ears off to it and just concentrated on playing hockey and trying to be the best player I could be.

AMT: When did you first start playing hockey?

WILLIE O'REE: I started playing organized hockey when I was five. I started skating at the age of three I had a rink in my backyard. My dad made a rink and educate around and then I started playing organized I'd get five and kinda played up to the ranks and when I was 14 I decided I wanted to become a professional hockey player.

AMT: What was it about the game that made you think that?

WILLIE O'REE: Well there was the speed that I could obtain on my skates and then handling a puck on a stick and I was just I was obsessed about playing the sport and growing up by I played about seven or eight different sports you know growing up besides hockey. I also played baseball but Hockey was Hockey was the fire that burnt within me and I said to myself I'm going to try and be the best player I could be.

AMT: You actually were scouted for professional baseball.

WILLIE O'REE: I was yeah back in 1956. I was playing with the Royals and two scouts came from the Milwaukee Braves minor league operations and wanted to know if I wanted to go down to Waycross Georgia to the training camp and I talked to my parents and my parents at that time said oh no. You know they they knew how blacks were treated in the south and then I talked to my older brother who was again my mentor and he says Well how do you feel. Do you feel like you'd like to go down for the training or you'd like to get out for the experience and I said Yeah I just I think I would. So I went down I flew into Atlanta first time I'd ever been in the south ruined Atlanta Georgia got off the plane walked into the terminal and the first thing I saw restroom was colored only white only. And then I had to stay in Atlanta overnight so I contacted a black cab driver out in front of the terminal and explained my situation and he took me to an all black neighborhood where they where I stayed in the hotel at night and then the next day I was a bus into Waycross. George I believe was around a three hour drive got to Waycross. Was assigned a dorm with seven other black players and players of color was issued uniforms and started practicing and then I could hear the racial remarks and racial slurs from the white players you know, but it didn't bother me. It just went in one ear. I just wanted to concentrate on being there in the training camp and trying to be the best player I could be.

AMT: But you're saying that from the moment you got there the segregation was in your face?

WILLIE O'REE: Oh yeah.

AMT: This is Jim Crow era Georgia.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah, yeah, it was there and you know I was always worried about where I could go or where I couldn't go and watching for signs and things of that nature. It was very uncomfortable. And then I was there the first week and a second week I was I was cut and come into the office and they said that you're gonna go back home and you know back then blacks had to sit in the back of the bus which I which I did. And I was five days on the bus until I got up to Bangor Maine and as the bus was travelling up north and getting closer and north I was starting to move up in the bus and then I was sitting at the center of the bus and then by the time I got to Bangor, Maine, I was sitting right in the front. And then another three hours I was in I was in Fredericton and I stepped off the bus and I said Willie forget about baseball concentrate on hockey and that's when I made the decision to go away and play hockey.

AMT: And that was about the way you were treated?

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah. Yeah I just wasn't exposed to that you know living in Canada and I told myself if I had been offered a contract, I probably would've turned it down and just came back home.

AMT: What do you remember about your first game in the NHL?

WILLIE O'REE: I remember it very well. Stepping on the ice on January the 18th, 1958 and playing against you know the Montreal Canadiens. It was great. I had played against them in an exhibition game, but this was a game in the National Hockey League and we were very fortunate to be Canadiens. We shut them out. I didn't get any goals, no assists, but just beating the Canadiens back then when they were winning the Stanley Cup. You know year after year it was just a great feeling and my parents come up from from Fredericton and some of my close friends came up and saw the game and then we had to get on the train and then take the train to Boston and then we played the the Canadiens in in Boston on Sunday night.

AMT: You said you didn't even realize you had broken the colour barrier until you read it in the papers the next.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah. Honestly I you know I was so excited about just being on the winning team and beating the Canadiens, I didn't realize at that time that I had you know open doors and broke down barriers to make it possible for not only black players, but players of colour you know to get into the league. So it was a nice feeling.

AMT: There are just 27 black players in the NHL this season out of more than 600 players. What role does racism play in keeping them out?

WILLIE O'REE: Well it plays a part, but you know hockey is a very unique sport. You know you need to get on the ice if to develop your skills and your talent and a lot of kids would rather play other sports where they you know where they're not faced with that, but I think that with these kids that are that are learning the sport and learning the game and working at it, I think there's gonna be more black players and players of colour coming into the league in the upcoming years.

AMT: I know that you've continued to deal with hate even as you mentor young people. You were leading a weekend for young people as part of the NHL diversity program in Washington D.C. and you receive threats from a white supremacist group. What happened?

WILLIE O'REE: Oh yeah I got letters. I still have the letters I sent them to when I received them I thought they were fan mail I sent them to the the NHL and they during them over to the proper authorities. But I wasn't fearful for myself I was fearful for the boys and girls that were coming for the event. I just said to myself I said Gosh I just I just hope everything works out and none of these boys and girls are injured by these people. Everything went well when it was turned over to the proper authorities and and they made their arrangements to you know to search the arena and make sure that the place was safe.

AMT: They had threatened to blow up the arena and they said the blood of the kids would be on your head.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah. I remember that. I still have the letters. I still have a copy of the letters and there's just some sick people out there and sick minds and it's not going to end overnight. It's going take some time before you know people realize that you know we're just basically human beings and trying to just live a life and try and be productive and be the best person you can be.

AMT: In the face of all of that what keeps you coming back to the game?

WILLIE O'REE: I think it's just the love of the game and when I retired from professional hockey in 1980 I felt that I had something to give back to the sport and get back to the community and I just felt that there are kids out there that I really felt that I could help be better individuals and and feel good about themselves and liking themselves I've worked with the hockey is for everyone program for 22 years and I wouldn't have stayed with for 22 years if I didn't think it was a good program.

AMT: What does it give to you to work with those young people?

WILLIE O'REE: Nice feeling, you know just to feel good about being able to help one boy or girl feel better about themselves and feel good and you know liking yourselves and working towards your goals. Goal setting is very important. You need to set goals for yourselves and work towards your goals.

AMT: What do you think it would have meant to you growing up to have a black NHL player as a role model?

WILLIE O'REE: Oh gosh, it would have been great. Well there was an all black line that played in Sherbrooke. There was Herbie, excuse me Herbie, Carnegie and Manny McIntyre. They played in the Quebec league. Herbie was by far the better player. He had went to the Rangers training camp and he went to the the Toronto Maple Leafs and he should have been in the National Hockey League.

AMT: Why do you think he wasn't?

WILLIE O'REE: Because of his colour. Because of his colour.

AMT: So they had one and that was it. They had you and that was like.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah, but Herbie should have been there. Herbie should have been there. You know when we sat down and we talked before he before he passed away, I just said you know Herbie it's just too bad that things and people the way they think. I even said to myself before I you know I broke in, I says he should have been. He should have been there and even now I hope his name gets into the Hall of Fame because he deserves it. He really does.

AMT: You think it would have changed something if more of you had been brought in to the league earlier? Like you make the point, you weren't the only talented man of colour.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah.

AMT: It would have changed even more maybe?

WILLIE O'REE: I think so.

AMT: But they just were closed to it.

WILLIE O'REE: I just think they were closed to it and it just happened that this particular time that the Bruins, I had went to the Bruins training camp on two occasions. I went in 1957 and went back to Quebec and played. Then I went to their training camp again in 1958 and went back to Quebec and played and then they contacted Quebec cases and said we want Audrey to meet the Bruins in Montreal to play two games and I think it was the decision of Lin Patrick the general manager and milkmen the coach at that time that you know they had seen me play at their training camp and they said I think there's there's something in that that play that we could use and that's I think they're rubbing on. But there were other there were other black players and players of colour playing at the same time I was you know Stan Max, this kid that I played with for hails from Nova Scotia. We played together for eight years. Played very well together and worked very well together and we kind of were in tune with one another. He had been skating down the ice and he wouldn't have to look, he just dumped the puck and he knew I was gonna be there.

AMT: I wish our listeners could see you as you talk about them and the way they skate. You're moving. Your upper body moving as if you're on the ice remembering it. It's fun to watch you.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah it was, I was considered a unique skater. The one thing that was an asset with me that I could be standing still and within four strides I could be at top speed, where other players would take six or seven strides and that's why I got a lot of breakaways and I'd break away from my my check and it was just something that was you know that came natural to me. I worked at it but it was just a natural thing that came and it gave me the advantage of you know getting into the position where I could have the access of you know getting a scoring a goal or getting getting a shot on net.

AMT: When you work with young hockey players today, what do they ask you?

WILLIE O'REE: Oh they ask me about what it was like playing you know with one eye. I had lost my eye, my second year junior. You know back then none of the players wore any helmets, no face shields, no cages. Nothing to protect your face and it was an unfortunate accident. There was a slap shot from the point. I'm in front of the net for a deflection and the puck ricocheted off a stick and come up and hit me flat and broke my nose, broke part of my cheek and I remember dropping down to the ice and the next thing I knew I was placed in an ambulance and taken tothe hospital. Dr. Henderson was a surgeon. I remember being in the recovery room and he came in and said Mr. O'Ree I'm sorry to inform you, he says the impact of the puck completely shattered the retina in your right eye and he said you're going to be blind and you will never play hockey again. Well I was 18 going on 19 and the goals and dreams that I had set for myself of not only playing professional hockey, but hopefully playing one day in the National Hockey League seemingly were gone. So I laid in my hospital bed and things were going through my mind what am I going to do now and I get out of the hospital and within the next five weeks I'm back on the ice practicing and playing. And the only difference I felt about myself was I just couldn't see out of my right eye.

AMT: I was going to say did you have to kind of relearn to do some stuff because your depth perception would change a bit too?

WILLIE O'REE: Yes. Being a left hand shot and playing left wing, I had to turn my head all the way around to the right to pick the puck up with my left eye because I couldn't look forward and see anything coming on my right side. So the season ends and I go back to Fredericton and now I either have to turn pro or play amateur and I had kept my fingers crossed that I'd be contacted by professional team. So the coach and general manager of the Quebec Aces, he called me and said willingness this ISIS I've wanted to play the last couple of years I like you like to invite you to training camp. So I tell my parents and I tell my friends that I'm going to Quebec with the Quebec Aces and I go up and I make the team but I don't tell them that I'm blind I'm blind in my right eye because I never took an eye exam and I said well if I'm good enough to make the team with one I just don't tell them. So I played that year with nothing stops you. We won the championship that year and I said Willie you can do anything you set your mind to do we said don't don't worry about anything else. So when I went to the Bruins training camp you know never took an eye exam went back played with the Quebec cases when I was called up on January 18th 1958. I never took an eye exam. I just went out and played because everybody thought when I came back to play that I'd recovered from my injury. I never even told my parents that I was blind because I knew that they would try and stop me from playing. I only told my younger sister Betty and she's passed on an ice. I swore her to secrecy I said this. I said don't say anything because if they find out then I'm blind I won't be able to play. And I went to training camp in the 21 years I played pro I never took one eye exam one eye exam.

AMT: Did they ever know?

WILLIE O'REE: Well I told them. Not when I played. I tell people now, yeah I was blind when I played my second year junior.

AMT: You know the irony of course is that people were blind to the fact that you could play because of the colou.

WILLIE O'REE: Yeah. Yeah.

AMT: Yeah. What a story Willie O'Ree. Last fall you were inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. More than 300 people wrote letters in support. What did you think when that campaign started?

WILLIE O'REE: Oh gosh it was I think it all had all had to do with Brian McBride who was working for the National Hockey League. He hired me back in 1996 and we had became close friends and and he says Willie he says you're going to get into the Hall of Fame he says. It's time it's overdue it's time and you know I got it. Well that's nice, that'd be nice. But it kind of went in one ear and out the other you know. But he says I've I know some people he says and they know that you should be in the hall of fame so one thing led to another and then all of a sudden both. Four weeks before I got the call. Then it just I started Don Moniz as I think it's I think it's gonna happen and even Brian said really it's going to happen. He says I guarantee here's Commissioner Bettman is behind it. He says I've got a lot of influential people. And he says we're gonna make it happen. And so when I found out I was in my home in San Diego I was sitting in the family room. Brian was ther,e Lawrence the young lady that does the filming and the editing she was there. My wife was there and the they said well you get a call between 12 noon and 3:00 p.m.. So I'm sitting I had the phones here and I'm you know I'm sitting and waiting and you know a couple of calls and I said No no I said I gotta call you back. I said I'm waiting on a phone call. So then the phone rang and it was Lonnie McDonnell one of the gentlemen that works for the Hall of Fame. And he says Willie. I said yes. He says that it's Lenny McDonald he says How are things. I don't know. Things are great. It could be better he said well he says I've got some good news. He says you're going to be inducted into into the hall and when he got when he said that I mean I jumped up and Brian had never had tears in his eyes in 25 years and the tears were coming down his eyes and my wife was there and I gave a big hug and a kiss to my wife and Lawrence, the young lady that does the filming and we were all hugging one another and then I called Fredericton because they were waiting on a call. And it was just, it was super. Super, super.

AMT: What does it mean to you to be inducted into the Hall of Fame?

WILLIE O'REE: Oh it's a nice feeling. You know I I mean as a builder, not as a hockey player because I only played 45 games. But the work that I have been doing over the 22 years with the youth development program is it's been it's just been awesome it's I've had so much fun and these these kids that I've come in contact with have been able to you know help them work and help them become better citizens and I just felt that I have been blessed really and just being able to give back is the big thing with me.

AMT: And to be recognized for what you've done to build the game going forward. So in your speech at the ceremony you said the work is not done that there are barriers to break and opportunities to give. What still needs to happen?

WILLIE O'REE: It still needs to be more boys and girls. Give them the opportunity to play another sport where they haven't had the opportunity to play in our program. It's a great program. And what I want to do is just reach out and get more boys and girls interested in playing hockey and give them the opportunity to play if they don't like it then they can walk away from it. But at least give them the opportunity to play and you know what. I remember that speech the latter part of the speech and I says when you go back to your communities take a look around find a young boy or girl that wants to play hockey and give them the opportunity. You never know they may make history it. There's a lot of truth to that.

AMT: Well you made history.

WILLIE O'REE: Yes. You know I wish my mom and dad you know were alive too. I know how pleased they would have been. But at least they had the opportunity to to see me play before they passed away and they knew that the passion that I had for the sport and they were always afraid of me getting hurt. but you know it's a contact sport.

AMT: But they also knew the man you were, right. The you would become right. Willie O'Ree really a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for coming in.

WILLIE O'REE: Oh my pleasure.

AMT: Willie O'Ree, 2018 inductee into the Hockey Hall of Fame. The documentary Willie is screening as part of the Hot Docs festival in Toronto. Willie O'Ree joined me in our Toronto studio. Let us know what you think of what he had to say about racism in the sport and what he went through then. What people still go through now. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent and I'm putting a picture of myself with Willie O'Ree up on my Instagram @AMTremonti. Stay with us. In our next half hour, shots fired. The National Rifle Association is in a leadership crisis. Some observers say the Republican Party is getting caught in the crossfire. We have a couple of people standing by to talk about all of that in just a few minutes. Stay with us. Note to self, don't play with your Instagram when your microphone is on. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current on CBC Radio One.

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Second Amendment supporters should be 'deeply concerned' about NRA infighting, says conservative pundit

Guests: Katie Zezima, John Lott, Charlie Sykes

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: To all of our incredible friends at the NRA, thank you for fighting the good fight. It is an honour to fight by your side and it's an honour to be with everyone in this giant hall today. I am with you. I will never ever let you down. Thank you. God bless you. And God bless the United States of America. Thank you.

AMT: U.S. President Donald Trump at the annual convention of the National Rifle Association, the NRA, this past weekend in Indianapolis. While the president was out front lauding the gun rights group, the drama within the NRA was playing out behind the scenes. Before the end of the meeting NRA President Oliver North would have announced the organization was in crisis and that he might, he would not be seeking a second term as its leader. In a letter to members, the NRA chief executive Wayne LaPierre would accuse Mr. North of extorting him to quit his position. This power struggle plays out as the once powerful lobby group fights off investigations into its non-profit status by the New York state attorney general's office. Katie Zezima has been following all of this at the National Rifle Association. She is a Washington Post national correspondent covering drugs, guns, gambling and vice in America. We've reached her in Washington D.C. Hello.

KATIE ZEZIMA: Hi. Thanks for having me.

AMT: That is the best beat: guns, drugs, gambling and vice.

KZ: Never dull, that's for sure.

AMT: Katie, I bet. Listen let's get the update. First of all, Wayne LaPierre now is the CEO of the NRA?

KZ: He has been. Yes. So he has been the vice president and CEO in NRA Board met behind closed doors yesterday for about nine hours. They usually meet you know in public for NRA members but they went through executive session. And you know we've been told by the organization that Wayne LaPierre was unanimously re-elected to his position.

AMT: OK. So how would you describe the current state of the NRA right now?

KZ: Well this weekend has it's been pretty dramatic as you said. There has been a lot of internal drama this power struggle between Wayne up here and Oliver North which lap here appears to have won. There have been allegations of financial impropriety. There's been this extortion allegation that came out between up here and in North. And you know the NRA is also enmeshed in a lawsuit with its longtime public relations firm Ackerman McQueen the NRA sued Aquaman which has been its PR firm for decades and has you know really made it what it is a kind of dark image it dark imagery that the NRA is known for they've really pushed that and they also you know we're behind the you know Charlton Heston from my cold dead hands line. So they've been around for quite some time. You know at the same time they're facing a ton of external pressure as you said the new York state attorney general has opened an investigation into the organization tax exempt status. They're also in a lawsuit with the state of New York over one of their insurance products. And there is a congressional investigation into into its ties with Russia. And you know they're also facing gun gun control groups which are you know which have been raising a ton of money in the past couple years and earn are stronger than ever really.

AMT: So when you look at all of that in that fight between Wayne LaPierre and Oliver North, was that just a clash of personalities or was that emblematic of of different views of that organization?

KZ: So you know Wayne LaPierre has been with the organization for decades. So there are quite a few people I've spoken with you know one one board member said to me you know Wayne has been doing this for 40 years I trust him I trust I trust his judgment. And I trust what he is doing. However there have been press reporting particularly in the New Yorker and in the New York Times about self dealing. You know we've not been able to confirm those that those reports have been out there and Oliver North said that that's what he wanted to look into. He said he wanted to create a panel to look into this. We've not been able to reach Mr. North, but those are some of the allegations that have been thrown out there and bandied you know between between the men over the past week.

AMT: What is self dealing?

KZ: You know just basically trying to enrich yourselves from financial impropriety, alleged financial improprieties. The reports have said that it has been some some self enrichment but again we have not been able to confirm that that's been reporting in other publications.

AMT: And there have been allegations against North that he's he too closely related tied to that giant PR firm Ackerman McQueen as well.

KZ: There has been and you know it's part of the lawsuit the NRA asking to see kind of some of the payments between the law firm and and the I'm sorry the P.R. firm and Mr. North particularly for a television show that he did for NRA TV.

AMT: So how are the rank and file NRA members looking at all of that conflict?

KZ: We spoke. We've spoken with a number of them. I mean at the convention in this you know it's kind of mixed a few people said you know this is the way corporations operate where you know we have full faith in the NRA. A few others said you know we'd actually really like to see a little more financial transparency. You know it wouldn't hurt to kind of see what's going on behind the scenes in a few other members who you know these are really people who are diehard NRA members. They care very deeply about the Second Amendment. They care very very deeply about firearms safety. Kind of a part of who they are. They're very upset about what's happening you know they fear that this could contain the organization and its mission and they really want to see more transparency in more of what's happening behind the scenes because they really do care so deeply about you know the Second Amendment and about guns and gun safety.

AMT: And we heard in that clip there President Trump speaking at the convention. How important has the NRA been in getting Republicans elected in the US?

KZ: It's been extremely important. The NRA donated more than 30 million dollars to help elect President Trump in 2016 but in 2018 they were actually outspent by some safety organizations. So on the other they spent much of their money trying to elect President Trump and they were you know they were successful at that. You know one thing however though is that despite having President Trump in the White House and despite until January having a Republican fully Republican controlled Senate the NRA hasn't been able to push through some of its major legislative change in Washington. So you know they have not that they despite having you know the kind of the wind at their back for four four two years they weren't able to push to push through know the major kind of change that that they wanted it's been in a little bit of a stalemate and on the other. On the other hand you know the gun that the gun control groups haven't been able to push anything major through either. So you know and a little bit of a stalemate in Washington there've been some small things that have that have passed but nothing enormous that the other side is looking for.

AMT: So what's the most serious challenge now facing the NRA?

KZ: I think you know this is pressure from New York State. I think it is something that kids have to watch and to look at than the what National Rifle Association is actually headquartered in Virginia but it's chartered in New York State. It was founded in New York state in 1871 so it goes way back in the state. So the New York officials have always had jurisdiction over it. New York has some of the most stringent nonprofit laws in America. In the end the attorney general has broad leeway to look at the nonprofits that are chartered in New York. So Letitia James The New York attorney general has made no secret that she wants to look at the at the NRA. She's actually called it a criminal enterprise. And she when she was running for election. She said you know if I'm elected this is something I'm going to do and you know we found out Friday that it is in fact something that she is doing. She's opened this investigation. She's issued subpoenas and she sent letters to the NRA, its charitable arm and you know affiliated entities saying you know you need to preserve financial records for this investigation.

AMT: OK. Thanks for bringing us up to date, Katie.

KZ: No problem. Thank you.

AMT: That is Katie Zezima. She's a Washington Post national correspondent. She covers drugs, guns, gambling and vice in America. She joined us from Washington D.C. Well for more on what this fight could mean for the future of the NRA, I'm joined by Charlie Sykes and John Lott. Charlie Sykes is a conservative commentator and author of How the Right Lost Its Mind. He joins us from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. John Lott is the president of the Crime Prevention Research Center, a group that studies gun ownership, crime and public safety laws. He's the author of More Guns, Less Crime and the War on Guns: Arming Yourself Against Gun Control Lies. John Lott joins us from outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Hello to both of you.

CHARLIE SYKES: Good morning.

JOHN LOTT: Good morning.

AMT: Charlie Sykes, let's start with you. Is the NRA struggling with a civil war among its members?

CS: Well it's certainly a mess. Whatever you call it I mean look this this is an organization that's been losing money for years running deficits as large as 40 million dollars a year maybe running through its its line of credit. It's losing members. And as your previous guest pointed out is now facing this really formidable legal challenge to its tax exempt status. I mean the New York attorney general does kind of pose an existential threat. I mean she in theory could remove the board. She could force it to pay back money that was improperly obtained and in a really extreme case she could even force them to dissolve it. That's unlikely. But this is an extraordinarily messy moment for the NRA any time you have your national convention and your CEO and your president are trading allegations of extortion and grifting and one of them is forced out. It's never a good look.

AMT: John Lott, the NRA has the name recognition, but its PR firm Ackerman McQueen has been a major influence in shaping its public image. How significant is it that there's so much conflict between the two groups now?

JL: I think it's, all of this is greatly exaggerated and I think a lot of the claims have been made both by the Washington Post reporter and Charlie there are not quite accurate. They've lost money for two years, but in large part that's due to other actions that New York State has taken. New York state through its regulatory bodies, has essentially made it so no insurance company will go and do business with the NRA. It's pretty hard to go and run a business without having any insurance. And in fact it started a new program called Carry Guard to Offer insurance to people who carry permit-concealed handguns. And then right after they had launched that, all the insurance companies that were underwriting it were forced by the state of New York to drop their coverage of that. They've also had trouble with New York in terms of New York threatening regulatory actions against companies that handle their credit cards and other things. So that's been a large part of it. And they spent 15 million dollars last year fighting against the just the legal costs for their battle against stay in New York and just give you an idea even the liberal group the ACLU, OK has sided with the NRA. I mean the ACLU doesn't agree with anything with the NRA in terms of policy, but what they've said is here you're using government regulatory power in order to try to destroy somebody that you disagree with their political views you could just imagine if somebody like former Prime Minister Harper had not disliked an environmentalist group and kept on auditing them. I just mentioned one last thing.

AMT: Actually environmental groups were audited under the Harper government.

JL: I know but if they did it simply because of the political.

AMT: They did it. You made your point. You made your point. But isn't it a problem.

JL: But the Obama administration.

AMT: Let me ask you. Let me ask you isn't it a problem when two of the NRA is most prominent and powerful figures are in open conflict.

JL: Well I don't know if you know this, but both Oliver North and Wayne LaPierre are very strong personalities here. And you know it's not too surprising I suppose wants to why you can go and have conflicts between people. But you know here you have. Oliver North made a lot of charges against way. But when you go and you look up here but when you look at what North wanted. He wanted to things was ripe here to resign. And he also wanted the NRA to drop its lawsuit against Ackerman McQueen, which is paying North. All this stuff you know there were things about sexual harassment. If it were me and I was concerned about things like a sexual, one case of sexual harassment, I would have said there should be an investigation of the sexual harassment claim and if a woman was harmed, she should be helped, but North didn't bring up anything like that. And is sued again by the NRA against Ackerman McQueen is saying you won't tell us the billing. I mean I run an organization. If I were to go to my auditor and say well I have a total bill I don't have a listing of the services we got from them. My auditor would send me back and that's basically what has happened in this case.

AMT: OK. So let's move on here. Charlie Sykes, what would the NRA look like without the influence of Ackerman McQueen?

CS: Well that's what's interesting, the relationship between the NRA and Ackerman McQueen is really almost incestuous. They're almost indistinguishable from one another and of course over the years Wayne LaPierre was very much involved in all of this. Look when I wrote about this yesterday I quoted Eric Hoffer who said every great cause begins as a movement becomes a business and eventually degenerates into a racket. And I think what you're seeing here this fight between Oliver North and Wayne LaPierre. Look there's there's no major philosophical issue here and it's not just a personality dispute. You know what. What you have is a power struggle over an organization that frankly has so many different grips. Look I know you can blame the New York attorney general's office for all the problems. There are really no white knights in this story but there are a lot of whistleblowers and people go read the article. The exposed in the New Yorker magazine which is based on internal documents and people within the NRA who are alarmed at these these sweetheart deals these consultant contracts the way in which the people in the in the NRA have paid themselves elaborate salaries people make millions of dollars a year and Aquaman McQueen is just simply part of this sort of blob this swampy culture that the NRA has created. So most of this this explosion that occurred over the weekend comes from within the NRA, people who are looking at what is happening and going wow this is not sustainable and in the long run it's not sustainable.

AMT: Let's, I've got a clip I want you both to hear. This is some from NRA TV, which some Ackerman McQueen is responsible for. It's an ad that features a Dana Lash, a spokeswoman for the NRA and she's a fixture on NRA TV. Let's listen.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: They use their media to assassinate real news. They use their schools to teach children that their president is another Hitler. They use their movie stars and singers and comedy shows and award shows to repeat their narrative over and over again all to make them march, make them protest, make them scream racism and sexism and xenophobia and homophobia to smash windows, burn cars, shut down interstates and airports, bully and terrorize the law abiding. The only way we stop this, the only way we save our country and our freedom is to fight this violence of lies with the clenched fist of truth. I'm the National Rifle Association of America and I'm freedom's safest place.

AMT: Okay you may have noticed that with the exception of the NRA plug at the end, there was no mention of guns, gun rights, gun ownership in that spot. Charlie Sykes what does it tell you about the role of the NRA in 2019?

CS: Well first of all, Dana Lash is not an employee of the NRA. She draws the salary from Ackerman, which gives you some sense of the way this works. Look I wrote about this for the the New York Times back in 2017 that this is an indication of really the direction the NRA has taken. They've taken the issue of rational gun regulation out of the policy realm and they've they've made it the center of these culture wars. So the NRA and NRA TV through Ackerman has basically become the right. But what was really interesting about that as you pointed out is that the word gun and gun rights Second Amendment does not appear at all in that soundbite, but again this is not really at the heart of the division that's going on right now, but it's certainly a sign of the direction that the NRA/Ackerman have been taking in the last few years.

AMT: So let me ask John Lott, the shift has positioned the NRA squarely at the center of the culture wars, roiling in the U.S. right now. How does that impact the core mission of the NRA of supporting the right to bear arms?

JL: Well I mean I think you have to deal with all the media biases there. I mean we go through our organization and go and look at how the media is regularly covering. You know even television shows constantly are demonizing people who own guns. You know we just had a Washington Post reporter referring to the gun control advocates as gun safety people. I'd like to believe that the people who support private ownership of guns, the reason why they do is to reduce violence because they believe in self-defense and I believe that more lives will be saved as a result of that than caught than laws. But I have to make one comment quickly and that is you guys talking about audits and stuff. The Obama administration was auditing the NRA for years. If anybody really thinks that the Obama administration went lightly on auditing the NRA, that's you know I don't even know how somebody can say that's not even serious.

AMT: OK but John let me ask you about that then. But the people at the top weren't fighting with each other during that. So like why now? Why did North and LaPierre start going at each other now?

JL: So North has only been there for a year.

AMT: Well exactly, but you've got fighting that you didn't have.

JL: Let me explain. Well North is new OK. But the thing you have to understand is the president is always been a figurehead position, a person really doesn't have much authority. And I think what probably happened with Oliver North is that he you know had his own way. They wanted to go and do things. And so, but you know Wayne LaPierre has been the executive vice president, the CEO of the organization and he's been running it and so they have different views. They have the same, Charlie's right about one thing, they have the same end goal that they want to do. And it's not surprising that people have different views on how to do it. And they've had lots of presidents without having this type of conflict, but you know Charlie's wrong about declining membership. They have 5.5 million people, that's the highest that it's been. You know the reporter was incorrect about relative spending by gun control groups and the NRA in the past. It's not just this last election. I mean this last election you have Michael Bloomberg spent $110 million dollars on House races for the federal government and at least that much on state legislative races. The NRA in large part because it was having to pay this $15 million legal bill with the state in New York spent almost nothing.

AMT: So let me ask about that. Let me let me ask about that because Charlie Sykes we do see the anti-gun lobby spending a lot of money now. Is this the beginning of the end.

JL: For eight years.

AMT: Well is this the beginning of the end of the NRA? Because it used to spend, it used to be the formidable one, right?

CS: Well I wouldn't say at the beginning of the end for them. I mean they face some serious challenges but obviously there are a huge constituency in this country for second amendment rights and that's not going away somebody is going to be picking that up. They also do face some competition from other gun rights organizations that that are you know would would would exploit any sort of weakness. But this this issue is not going away politically. And you know the NRA had a choice though it could have basically stepped back and said OK well we need to be more transparent we need to account for this money. Maybe we need to clean house here a little bit. Instead what they decided to do was circle the wagons send out the shills to say there's nothing to look at here and and double down on the same people that have you know have made made the NRA so swampy so.

JL: So in four years of audits, what did the IRS find?

CS: John did I interrupt you?

JL: But I'm just saying.

CS: John I did not interrupt you. I did not interrupt you.

JL: Tell me one.

AMT: We're almost out of time guys.

CS: John wants to portray the NRA.

AMT: This is a tough discussion to have in the US of A, isn't it?

CS: It is, but if you are a genuine supporter of the Second Amendment, I think you ought to be deeply concerned about what's going on with the NRA and their refusal to be transparent, their refusal to clean house and the refusal to take responsibility for these internal issues.

AMT: Well we have to leave it there. OK. We're out of time, but thank you both for weighing in on this one today. We gotta go. We gotta go John. Sorry. Charlie Sykes, conservative commentator, author of How the Right Lost Its Mind. He's in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. John Lott, president of the Crime Prevention Research Center and author as well of the book I've got the title right here. It's More Guns Less Crime and the War on Guns: Arming Yourself Against Gun Control Lies. Let us know what you think. Tweet us @TheCurrentCBC. Find us on Facebook. Go to our website cbc.ca/thecurrent.

[Music]

AMT: Changing subjects. Have you ever competed in a spelling bee? If so you know it takes hours of practice, a laser sharp focus and for the few who get serious about it the pressure of the big competitions is intense. This week we're going to take a peek into the world of elite spellers because anthropologist Shalini Shanker believes the spelling bee circuit can tell us a lot about kids in the generation Z category those born in the middle not from the mid 90s through to the mid 2000s.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sounds from Spelling Bee]

AMT: A winning round in the 2018 Scripps National Spelling Bee with spllebrity. That's what they call them now. This year's Scripps Bee is coming up at the end of May. The Spelling Bee of Canada national championships are being held this weekend. You heard Shalini Shankar, author of the new book Bee Line: What Spelling Bees Reveal About Generations Z's New Path to Success. Our conversation is coming up later this week. That's our program for today. Stay with Radio One for Q. Musician Rob Thomas is on the show. The lead singer of The Matchbox 20 joins Tom Power to talk about his first solo album in four years. Earlier I spoke with Willie O'Ree about what it's like to be the first black player in the NHL. Canadian hockey star P.K. Subban is one of only a handful of black players in the league today. In 2012 he spoke with CBC's George Stroumboulopoulos about racism in the sport. We're going to leave you today with some of that interview. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.

SOUNDCLIP

[Clip from interview with PK Subban]

[Music: Theme]

Back To Top »

Back To Top »

Provide Transcript Feedback

CBC would like to acknowledge the support of the Broadcasting Accessibility Fund.

Apr. 30, 2019 episode transcript

More Stories Like This