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The AIH Transcript for April 29, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: A beacon in the darkness. After a deadly anti-Semitic attack on his friend's synagogue, a rabbi in San Diego is urging people to find the light.

JD: The centres cannot hold. All around them are explosions and gun battles — and our guest says the only way to safety for refugees trapped in detention centres in Libya is a ceasefire.

CO: Break and exit. After a natural dike bursts in suburb of Montreal island, flooding the streets, thousands of residents are forced to stop waiting and start wading.

JD: Their endurance endures. While under siege in Aleppo, Syria, Waad al-Kateab made a documentary as a letter to her infant daughter — to explain why she and her husband decided to stay and defend their city.

CO: Jumping the snark. Jason Kennedy said the first thing he'd do as Premier is fire Ed Whittingham — but after what he calls a smear campaign against him, the energy advisor is giving himself the boot.

JD: And...the whales have ears. Norwegian fisherman spot a friendly beluga which, on closer inspection, is wearing a harness that could hold a camera — and that may mean it's one of many aquatic Russian spies.

JD: "As It Happens", the Monday edition. Radio that wants a blowhole by blowhole account.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: San Diego synagogue shooting, Montreal flood evacuation, Norway spy beluga

San Diego synagogue shooting

Guest: Yeruchem Eilfort

JD: They were there to celebrate the last day of Passover. And today, the Jewish community in San Diego County is mourning the loss of one of their own. On Saturday, a gunmen walked into the Chabad of Poway synagogue and started shooting. Three people were injured — including the rabbi. Lori Gilbert Kaye, a founding member of the synagogue, was killed. Her funeral was held today. Yeruchem Eilfort is the rabbi at the Chabad of La Costa, a synagogue nearby. We reached him in Carlsbad, California.

CO: Rabbi Eilfort, how did you first learn that there had been a shooting at the synagogue in Poway?

YERUCHEM EILFORT: We were in the middle of our services, and one of the components of the service on the last day of Passover, which is a memorial service for those who've passed away. And the only people who recite the service — the memorial service — are those whose parents have passed away. So when the others had left the synagogue, and they were waiting in our entry area, a police car from the city of Carlsbad pulled up. And my wife went over to ask what was going on? And he informed her what was going on. And that's when we learned about it — in the middle of services on Saturday.

CO: It must have been very disturbing because the rabbi in Poway is your friend, Rabbi Yisroel Goldstein. Were you able to reach him?

YE: No. Here's the thing, on the Jewish Sabbath and Jewish holidays, I am unplugged from all digital-type things. So we were totally in the dark. We were totally as far as information goes, other than what this officer could tell us. And the beginning stages of it where fog of war, so in other words no one knew exactly what was going on. Even he didn't know. And it wasn't until much later that after the end of the holiday, when I plugged back in so to speak, where everything became clear. And I will tell you that time in between hearing about the shooting from the police until I could find out what actually happened was distressing because I know the Goldstein's. My wife and I have known them for 30 years. And this hit very close to home.

CO: So Rabbi Goldstein, as now you know, he was shot in the hand. He's lost a finger. He has other damage to his hand in general. How is he doing?

YE: Rabbi Goldstein is a trooper’s trooper. I’m filled with admiration for him right now. The way he has been a rock of strength, of course, it's an incredibly emotional time for him, as it is for the whole community, but more so for him. He had a rifle leveled at his face two days ago. He had someone pull the trigger. He was wounded almost in front of his granddaughter, who he had to yell at get out of here, get out of here, as he was bleeding from a finger, and watched a dear congregant and friend of his shot right next to him. And despite all of this, he has been speaking about the need for love, the need for growth, the need for unity. He has been nothing short of inspirational. I'm a little choked up talking about him because it's just I can't see how a person can humanly do what he's been doing.

CO: And even in the midst of the time when he's wounded, he's bleeding, he was trying to round up the kids and get them away — including his granddaughter, is that right?

YE: Yes. I think what happened was the shooter, miraculously, his gun jammed. And then there was an off-duty Border Patrol agent there, and an Army veteran who was coming at the shooter. So he ran. Rabbi Goldstein had the presence of mind to stand up and address his community. They were you can imagine terror-stricken, panicked, and to try and calm the situation, but also instill hope in them. He said the Jewish people were going to live. We're going to be stronger. They cannot break us — while bleeding.

CO: Just extraordinary. And two other people injured — including one of them was a 9-year-old girl. But I want to ask you about the woman who was killed, whom I think you know, Lori Gilbert Kaye. What can you tell us about Lori?

YE: My wife taught her daughter in school, and my daughters were actually her daughter's classmates in the school. This woman was a powerhouse. She was just an incredibly warm, welcoming, engaging personality. Who was one of these people who was constantly seeking opportunities to do kindness and help other people. This is what I've gathered from the people who know her and have said to me this is like an angel. You know a little bit of light has been dimmed from the world because Lori has been taken from us. And so my response to that has to be so then we have to add light in the world. We have to make up for what she can't do anymore.

CO: And she had just been speaking with Rabbi Goldstein moments before, and she was there because her mother had died. So she was there for prayers, and she had given enormously to get that synagogue even open. So Reverend Goldstein is saying that this is just for him personally a devastating loss.

YE: On many levels. I can't imagine the anguish that this man is going through… a personal friend, a congregant. We have a saying in Chabad that when one is faced with pain, what do you do with that energy? You try and act on it in a positive way. You try and turn it into a positive. And the way to do that is not by focusing inwardly, but by focusing outwardly and trying to help other people. And that's a way to try and climb out of the pain. And Rabbi Goldstein is doing just that. I'm watching him in wonder how he's able to do it. And he's doing it. To his credit, it's really, really amazing.

CO: Rabbi, that's the side of light and hope I know that you're giving there, but there is the dark side. And I have to ask you one question about that. The alleged shooter did issue some kind of a manifesto that was full of anti-Semitism. And we know that anti-Semitism is on the rise in the United States and around the world. How much does that worry you?

YE: You have to be. But you also have to strategically think how are we going to beat it? Are we going allow this to scare us or intimidate us? And the answer has to be no because then the haters win. Now, at the same time, we're going to be very vigilant, continue to be very vigilant, and we're going to study what happened, analyze what happened, and we will continue to make improvements in security. And I'm hopeful that my colleagues around the world, all faith leaders do the same. We've got to study what's happened in New Zealand — the terrible shooting in the mosque. And what happened in Sri Lanka, what happened in Pittsburgh six months ago, and what happened two days ago in Poway, California. And we will fight the anti-Semitism and the hatred, the bigotry wherever it lives. And we will be successful. There's no question we will be successful.

CO: Rabbi Eilfort, I really appreciate what you have to say, and how inspiring it is. And thank you for speaking with us.

YE: Ok. Thank you for calling. God bless.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Yeruchem Eilfort is the rabbi at the Chabad of La Costa. We reached him in Carlsbad, California.

[Music: Sombre]

Montreal flooding evacuation

Guest: Michelle Ellison

JD: Tonight, communities across Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick are partially underwater. Houses and streets are flooded — with more than a dozen communities along the Ottawa River under a state of emergency. This weekend, thousands of residents were forced to flee their homes in Sainte-Marthe-sur-le-Lac, an off-island suburb northwest of Montreal, when a natural dike burst. Among them was Michelle Ellison. We reached her in Sainte-Marthe-sur-le-Lac.

CO: Michelle, at this point, do you have any idea what state your house is in?

MICHELLE ELLISON: No. We haven't been able to get to our house yet. Well, we're on the list. So we just want clothes and check the house, so we're not a priority. But it could be two or three days before we were able to go to the house.

CO: Okay, so when you're able to go house, you have to be escorted back? Is that what happens?

ME: Yes, yes, yes, we have to be escorted, yes.

CO: And so how are you coping with that?

ME: There's not much I can do about it. I know that everybody's working so hard to help us. But it's just that I want to go see my house. I want to see how bad it is. So I'm a little bit upset, not mad, but just like man, I want to go see my house. [laughs]

CO: And how much water do you think you've taken in?

ME: Well, I don't know if there's water in the house. The last time we saw pictures, it was up to the stairs, which means that my crawl-in space is probably full of water. So if it stays there, I'll be happy.

CO: Can you take us back to Saturday night, the moment when you learned the dike had broken, what was that like?

ME: Well, I don't know if I told you? We were having supper, and then the doorbell rang emergency. So we went, and they said the dike is breaking, we need help, we need help. So we ran from my house to the dam; it's 30 seconds. So we ran to the dike. As we got there, that's when everything broke loose. The trees just came crashing. You could hear the sound; it was tremendous. The trees were crashing. And then the whole thing just opened up, and the water… it just came. It was Niagara Falls, all of a sudden it was so powerful that one of the mobile homes that is right at the back of where the dike is, the water moved it to the street. That's how powerful it was.

CO: But Michelle, was that the best place for you to be heading to? Shouldn't you be heading the other direction?

ME: Well, when the police blew their sirens and said evacuation rush, that's when we ran the other way. [laughs] We ran the other way because we had worked on the dike the night before, and we knew how solid it was. So it's like what do you mean it's breaking? So I went to see what's going on.

CO: So you went from being on dry land to being in…

[crosstalk]

ME: Flood land.

CO: Serious flood land.

ME: Yes, that’s what it is. [laughs]

CO: Wow! Were you in danger at any point?

ME: No. Because by that time, we just ran to our house. And the siren is going crazy, move, move, move, move. So I know there's a couple of people around my house that are elderly and fragile. So we just knocked on those doors and come on, let's go get into my car, move, move, move, move, move. And we took our two cars, and we just went to dry land. And within… oh God, I'll say within 10 minutes, there was no more street; it was water.

CO: Okay, go through this again. So you were having dinner, someone bangs on the door, you run, the water's rushing in, and 10 minutes later, you're in the car. And then within minutes later, the road is gone?

ME: Yeah, yeah. I was having my spaghetti, pasta was ready, my glass of wine was on the table, we ready for supper. Everything was left there. [laughs]

CO: So your spaghetti is still sitting there — you hope?

ME: And the thing is that's it exactly. My spaghetti is still sitting on the stove, and pasta is still in the sink. I have to laugh about it because it's like what can I tell you?

CO: Were you able to take anything with you?

ME: No. That's the problem — nothing, nothing. I'm wearing the same clothes I left with Saturday night.

CO: But the police were on your case right away, which is good. The authorities, right?

ME: Oh yeah, that's what I have to say. The police, everybody, it was fantastic. The help around us was amazing. You would’ve thought that the Eiffel Tower just crashed. Everybody was here. Police, ambulance, firemen, everybody, everybody was here. It was amazing.

CO: Have you ever seen your neighbourhood under this much water before? Has this ever happened before?

ME: No, no, no, because there was a big flood in 2017 and we didn't get a drop of water. That's why I'm so mad at the insurance because we were not a flood zone here. We've never got flooded. This domain has been here for 35 years, and there was never a dump of water here.

CO: So what do you mean about the insurance? What's the problem there?

ME: Because of the floods, we’re not covered. I’m not getting a penny from my insurance — nothing.

CO: And so does that mean you're not going to get any help and to restore your house?

ME: Government is going to give us some money. They're saying that they were going to give us two hundred thousand dollars. If it gets to be a flood zone, they’re not doing anything to repair it. We're giving you two hundred thousand dollars and move out. Where am I going to go with two hundred thousand dollars?

CO: But is it tempting to get out even if you don't have as much money as you need?

MW: Well, the thing is where am I going to go? I'm 71 years old. I don't want to buy a house again. I don't want to go into an old folks home. I'm not there yet. Rent an apartment, pay again for the rest of my life, I paid this house. it's all paid. Everything is clear. I'm free. And now I've got to start all over again? This doesn't make sense.

CO: You said within a couple of days you may be on the list to get back in and take a look?

MW: Yeah, we know that we're going to be called eventually. Then we can go to the house and assess the damages and make a small suitcase for us.

CO: Michelle, I really hope your house survived.

ME: Oh, me too.

CO: It's just so difficult. But listen, I appreciate you talking to us. Thanks so much.

ME: Oh, you're welcome.

CO: Okay, bye-bye.

ME: Bye-bye.

JD: Michelle Ellison was one of thousands of people forced to leave their homes this past weekend. We reached her at her son's house in Sainte-Marthe-sur-le-Lac, which is just northwest of Montreal.

[Music: Ambient]

Norway spy beluga

Guest: Jorgen Wiig

JD: A trio of fishermen on the Northern coast of Norway were last week joined by an inquisitive and friendly beluga whale. Which just seemed like a wonderful encounter with nature — until the fishermen noticed the animal was wearing something — some kind of underwater gear. It was curious. And it gets curiouser: the discovery has led to speculation that whales are being trained as part of an international surveillance operation — by the Russians. Jorgen Wiig is an Inspector with the Norwegian Directorate of Fisheries. As part of his work with the Sea Surveillance Service, he joined the fishermen to help this whale. We reached him in Havoysund, Norway.

CO: Jorgen, when you first got this call from a fisherman telling you about this whale, what did he tell you that made you wonder about what this well was going through?

JORGEN WIIG: Well, I was wondering what this is, and why is a white whale down here on the coast of Norway? That's quite un-normal. And why does it have this thing on it?

CO: Okay, this thing on its back. What is the thing that he told you it was wearing?

JW: I asked if it was some kind of fishing equipment. But it was not; it was some kind of harness, and it was human-made he told me. It was put there on purpose.

CO: So you went to check it out for yourself?

JW: Yeah, we did. It's our job to disentangle whales from fishing equipment and everything. So I was told by my boss to just head up straight there. And that's what we did.

CO: And what did you see about this whale? How was it behaving?

JW: It was really friendly. And our first instinct was that it was asking for help. It was not afraid. It was seeking towards us. I felt it with my own hands, and I petted it like on the forehead.

CO: You deal with whales that get tangled up in gear and kit all the time, so what was different about this thing that was around this whale?

JW: Yeah, it’s a harness like when you put your rucksack on your back. It's the same thing.

CO: This is fastened quite firmly around this whale. How did you get it off the whale?

JW: I tried to lure it towards me with a fish fillet that we just fished a couple of days ago. It's really good. And my partner tried to free it, but it was quite hard. The fisherman he was still there. He told us he can jump in the water and try to get a bigger reach.

CO: I mean you'd have to actually get your hands on the whale’s harness — physically get your hands on it, right?

JW: Yeah. That is what we did, and we had like several attempts. And we could touch the harness, and then we can start like ripping it off. But when we just pressed the clip, it just swam away.

CO: Wow! What risk was there? Is it dangerous to be in the water with the whale?

JW: The only danger I saw there was that if any of us tried to unleash the whale and then did we get somehow stuck to the whale, and whale dives down and we go with it. That would be dangerous.

CO: Yeah, I could see that because as you're trying to wrestle with this harness, it could actually pull away moving very quickly, and that could be quite risky.

JW: Yeah, that was quite difficult. The fishermen, he managed to unclip one of the clips. And then I gave him this special whale releasing equipment. I attached that hook to a rope that I attach the other end to our boat. And he managed to get it around the harness. And the whale went wild. He just went straight down, and it started to pull the boat, and pull, and pull, and pull. And I was like standing there with a knife ready to cut it off — the rope. And then suddenly, pop, it released itself. And then we could see that the harness was loose from the whale, and we just started cheering. It was just a really good feeling.

CO: Wow! So that's not the end of the story. You actually could see some identity on this harness. What did you find?

JW: It was really small letters was printed a logo that was reading Equipment St. Petersburg.

CO: In English, it said Equipment St. Petersburg.?

JW: Yeah.

CO: Why do you think Russians would have put this harness on the whale?

JW: They have been known to Crane beluga whales for major purposes like to help divers and also guard the naval bases if enemy divers can get into the bases.

CO: But I understand there was something else on this harness that indicated something might have been attached to it?

JW: Yeah, it was like this GoPro mount or like the clips when you have a GoPro camera, you can click it on or off.

CO: This was a spy whale.

JW: Yeah, I don't think they will use it for spying here in Norway because it's not like an interesting area for a military. Maybe.

CO: Well, the Russians are pretty interested in Norway these days…

[crosstalk]

JW: Yeah, they are.

CO: So is it possible, especially around the coast, is it possible that they were trying to use this whale for espionage?

JW: Yes, so that could be. The was this Norwegian newspaper, they have done some research in this. And they’ve that the Russians have used beluga whales before, and they also use sea lions for this purpose. And they also found video of a sea lion with really a similar harness like this.

CO: How close are you to any kind of naval base from Russia?

JW: It's not that far. Like Murmansk it's quite close, and the US have like a big dome in far eastern Norway that the Russians are not so happy about.

CO: I know I caught you you're out on the water right now. Where exactly are you?

JW: I’m outside Havoysund. It’s really calm and good weather so we want to go sailing now, and not later on when it's really bad.

CO: Well, happy travels. Bon voyage. And it good to talk to, Mr. Wiig. Thanks.

JW: Yeah, thank you.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Jorgen Wiig is a marine biologist and Inspector with the Norwegian Directorate of Fisheries. We reached him in Havoysund, Norway.

[Music: Jazz]

Part two: Libya migrants, Alberta Energy Regulator resignation

Libya migrants

Guest: Matthew Brook

JD: As airstrikes and house-to-house fighting continue in Libya, civilians have nowhere to go. The battle is between forces loyal to former general Khalifa Haftar and the UN-backed government in Tripoli. Most in danger in the capital are thousands of refugees and migrants, who have found themselves trapped in government-run detention centres as the fighting rages around them. Matthew Brook is the UN High Commissioner for Refugees' Deputy Chief of Mission in Libya. We reached him, however, in Tunis, Tunisia — where he had just arrived from Tripoli.

CO: Mr. Brook, before we get into the situation facing these refugees who are in Libya and in Tripoli, can you give us an idea of the intensity of the fighting that's around Tripoli right now?

MATTHEW BROOK: The fighting has been going on for about three weeks now. And over the last few days, it's intensified further. We're seeing a lot of airstrikes by both sides — including through with drones that are targeting key supply routes, ammunition depots. There's also been a number of cases of indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas, which has caused the depopulation of whole neighborhoods within Tripoli.

CO: We have followed this story for some time now about the numbers of people from all over Northern Africa who have ended up in Libya as they tried to escape as refugees, asylum seekers. And many of them stuck, unable to get further, unable to go back. What's happening to them? What's happening to those refugees who've been crossing Libya looking for refuge?

MB: Well, we have currently more than 3,000 that are actually trapped in detention centres. So they have been held in these detention centres. The fighting is raging around them. And they're hearing the explosions, the shelling, the fighting that's literally right outside the gates of some of these detention centres. So what we're trying to do as UNHCR in collaboration with others is to move these refugees and migrants to safety away from the frontlines.

CO: And is that possible?

MB: It is possible. We've moved over 1,200 so far — including one that we did just last Wednesday and Thursday. It's located in an area that's currently held by the forces that are attempting to take Tripoli. So it involves quite delicate negotiations with both sides of the conflict to create a sort of humanitarian corridor that allows us to extract these 665 refugees across the front lines to a safer location. So it is very challenging, but it is possible.

CO: But even if you're able to get them out, you have this this corridor where you can move them from government side to the rebel side, they're still being held under detention, is that right?

MB: Well, we do have what's called a gathering and departure facility. It's a UNHCR-operated facility, and we are able to move vulnerable refugees to that centre in that location. It’s a safer part of Tripoli. And we are able to provide them some basic accommodation, food, basic protection. And from there, we are working to identify ways for them to be evacuated outside of Libya. So nowhere in Tripoli is completely safe. We can only move them to safer locations — not a safe location, per say. So today, for example, we had 146 refugees who were evacuated from Tripoli to Italy. So our first objective is to move refugees to a safer location within Tripoli. But beyond that, it's to actually evacuate them outside of Libya completely.

CO: There are journalists who have been able to get into some of those detention centres where those refugees and migrants are being held. And the conditions are horrific as they've been able to document. What did you see when you got into some of those centres? What was it like for the people who were there?

MB: Well, the conditions are absolutely very difficult. Many of them don't have or aren't receiving a sufficient amount of food. They're in very cramped conditions. In some of the centres I've been to, each person basically has the space that their mattress occupies. And in many cases, they have very limited access to go outside of the barracks or hangars that they're in. And then the other element to take into account is that what they have been through in terms of even arriving to that point of being in a detention centre and being subject to smuggling rings, to torture, to in many cases to sexual violence. So this fact now that they're caught in the middle of a conflict compounds the misery that they've already been suffering.

CO: So what’s to be the fate of these people that you’re getting out of this dangerous zone? Are they going to find safe asylum? Are they going to be accepted some other place like Italy if you're able to move them there?

MB: Absolutely. This is what we're calling on the international community to create additional slots for refugees to be able to be evacuated. In the case of Canada, for example, there were over the past few days 17 refugees have been resettled to Canada out of Libya. It's a small number, but it's still significant. That’s 17 lives that are changed. We are calling on the international community to increase the possibilities for refugees to be evacuated out of Libya.

CO: What's the best case scenario as far as the conflict? Is it possible that General Haftar’s forces would agree to a cease fire?

MB: Of course, that we hope that there is a an end to the conflict, and the end to the suffering that's being faced by the Libyan people. It's very difficult to say at this stage, but we are very worried about the increasing humanitarian impact and dimension of the conflict.

CO: Mr. Brook, we'll leave it there. And I appreciate speaking with you tonight. Thank you.

MB: Thank you.

JD: Matthew Brook is UNHCR's Deputy Chief of Mission in Libya. We reached him in Tunis, Tunisia.

[Music: Ambient]

Alberta Energy Regulator resignation

Guest: Ed Whittingham

JD: You can't fire me — I quit. Ed Whittingham beat Jason Kenney to the punch this week, when he resigned from the Alberta Energy Regulator. Mr. Whittingham was the architect behind a cap on oil sands emissions. That was a key part of the NDP government's plan to fight climate change. The incoming premier has suggested scrapping that emissions cap — and firing Mr. Whittingham, whom the United Conservative Party has labelled, quote, "anti-oil." In a testy resignation letter, Ed Whittingham — who used to lead the left-leaning Pembina Institute — says he's the victim of a smear campaign. We reached Mr. Whittingham in Edmonton.

CO: Mr. Whittingham, Jason Kenney makes it clear he is not exactly sorry to see you go. Are you doing his work for him by resigning? Why not stay and resist?

ED WITTINGHAM: Well, let's say we've just reached a point of irreconcilable differences. Premier-Designate Kenney and his incoming governments have been very clear about their intentions to remove me from the board of the Alberta Energy Regulator. And having had a look at their policy direction, and also being subjected to their communications tactics, I'm uncomfortable with their direction. So by resigning, I hope I'm saving people some time and energy.

CO: When you say communications tactics, you say in your resignation letter you have been a victim of a smear campaign. What do you mean?

EW: Yes, it's a sorry thing when one has one’s reputation reduced down to an Internet meme, and all sorts of slurs thrown against one from being anti-oil, which couldn't be further from the truth. I'm pro-responsible development of Alberta's and Canada's oil and gas resources. And I've worked my entire career on that.

CO: But Jason Kenney campaigned in Alberta — successfully campaigned — on a promise to return the province of Alberta to its former glory, to restore the industry, and that's not what you want, is it? I mean you oppose the direction he wants to take it. You oppose what the industry — the oil and gas sector in Alberta — was doing. So, in fact, you are his enemy if that's what he is trying to do, are you not?

EW: Perhaps Premier-Designate Kenny and I want the same thing. We want a thriving oil and gas sector that is well-equipped to be globally competitive in an international low-carbon world. I think we disagree on the ways of getting there. And one thing that I'm deeply concerned about is his public musing about scrapping the oil sands emissions limit, which I think is a really important policy tool that the previous government implemented. And that I had a role in. I think you need to look at the tremendous amount of support within industry that the emissions limit has had. And the reason that some of the top leaders of industry stood behind the premier as part of that plan, and were fully supportive of the emissions limit is because they thought that was necessary to show that Alberta is doing its fair share to address climate change. And I think it's worked. The federal government when it approved the Trans Mountain pipeline specifically cited the emissions limit as part of Alberta doing its fair share. And as I call it the oil sands flyover index, when was the last time we had a Hollywood celebrity do an oil sands flyover and say nasty things? That hasn't happened for many years because the rest of Canada and the world has increasingly recognised that Alberta is doing its fair share.

CO: Why does that matter? I mean Jason Kenney is about Alberta — Alberta first. So what does it matter to Mr. Kenny if celebrities come or go, or ig anyone outside of Alberta doesn't like what Alberta is doing?

EW: I don't want to go back to those bad old days of the rancour and the conflict. Rather, I'd like to take that energy and focus it on working constructively on solutions. And particular to the emissions limits, I really worry that Premier-Designate Kenny is picking the wrong fight with Ottawa. If Prime Minister Trudeau specifically mentioned the emissions limits as part of his rationale for approving the Trans Mountain pipeline, then we're picking a fight that could cause a stalemate at a time when Albertans are hurting.

CO: Does Mr. Kenny really need buy-in from the outside world, from those players outside of Alberta?

EW: Mr. Kenny may think that he doesn't need that buy-in. But we've got a pipeline that's going to span a provincial border to get responsibly-developed oil to tidewater. And that is not his decision alone to make. That is a federal decision. And the federal government has been very clear on the conditions that they need to see in place in order for the pipeline to go ahead.

CO: You were formerly of the Pembina Institute. You're part of various groups who are making the case as you're saying it now that’s what Mr. Kenney considers be a campaign of economic sabotage. That's a quote, and the belief that there's foreign foundations who are providing the money for this economic sabotage. How do you respond to the charge that Pembina Institute and others have taken money from the United States?

EW: Well, first, I mean economic sabotage it's just another example of the unfortunate smear campaign. When it comes to this notion of foreign funding, 85 per cent of Pembina’s revenue came from Canadian companies, and governments, and Canadian foundations, and individual Canadians. And 15 per cent came from international sources, who were also investing in Pembina’s responsible development mandate. And that kind of spread puts us in the same boat as hundreds of other Canadian non-profit groups, not to mention Canadian companies, who successfully go out and attract international capital for their activities.

CO: We're going to see an under Jason Kenney an energy war room. He's going to fight environmentalists in court. He's going to fight public opinion. And in journalism, he's going to take on all kinds of parties — including environmentalist provinces, banks. Do you think perhaps you're just an early casualty in a much larger war that Jason Kenney is waging?

EW: No, absolutely 100 per cent. Of course, we need to stand up for Alberta. But to go out and pick fights at a time when as I said around the oil sands flyover index being down, you know? We've I think had four fairly quiet years, and now we're just inviting that kind of scorn and hostility and criticism that I think takes us back to the old days.

CO: We will leave it there. Mr. Whittingham, thank you.

EW: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Bye.

JD: Ed Whittingham has resigned as a board member with the Alberta Energy Regulator. We reached Mr. Wittingham in Edmonton.

[Music: Hip-hop]

Ethiopian Air suit

JD: When Paul Njoroge read the news that a plane had crashed in Ethiopia, tragically, he recognized the flight number. His wife and three children, who lived with him in Hamilton, Ontario, were on the Ethiopian Airlines flight. They, along with 153 others, were killed on March 10th. Now, Mr. Njoroge's lawyers have filed wrongful death lawsuits against Boeing, the plane manufacturer, and Rosemount Aerospace. Here's part of what Mr. Njoroge said to reporters today.

SOUNDCLIP

PAUL NJOROGE: My wife and children were traveling from Toronto to Nairobi. The children had not seen their two grandfathers and one of their two grandmothers in almost two years. It would have been the first time for Ruby to be with a larger family. They were all eager to get there, but they never made it. I stay up all night crying, thinking of the horror that they must have endured, as pilots struggled to keep the plane flying for six minutes. The terror that my wife must have experienced with little Ruby on her lap, our two children beside crying for their daddy. Those six minutes will forever be embedded in my mind. I was not there to help them. I couldn't save them. It was up to Boeing and the others in charge to save them. We paid for a safe flight. But instead, my family and others in that plane have suffered a loss that can never be mended. We are here to ensure that planes remain flyable, and safe for human beings. That no lives are lost again because of the negligence of plane manufacturers and aviation regulators. Nobody should go through what I and others have gone through since March 10th. You know, it's my prayer that God rest their soul in eternal peace. And I hope that someday I'll find some peace because I don't have any peace.

JD: That was Paul Njoroge, at a news conference today. Mr. Njoroge's lawyers have filed wrongful death lawsuits in the Ethiopian Airlines crash.

[Music: Horns!]

FOA: Wayson Choy obit

JD: Even though it is a certainty that each and every one of us one day will die, few of us have actually ever experienced it. And not many of those who have come close return to talk about what it was like. And you could argue that only one has written about it as eloquently as Wayson Choy. A decade ago, the award-winning Canadian novelist published a remarkable memoir about his brushes with death — that had begun eight years before. Wayson Choy died on Saturday, just a week after his 80th birthday. In 2001, he was rushed to hospital after suffering an acute asthma attack. He was placed in a medically-induced coma, during which he suffered a series of heart attacks. Incredibly, he survived, after months of rehab — only to suffer another heart attack four years later. His near-death experiences formed the basis for his 2009 book, Not Yet: A Memoir of Living and Almost Dying. Shortly after its publication, he joined Carol for a feature conversation. Here is some of their conversation, from our archives.

SOUNDCLIP

WAYSON CHOY: I guess my health came back mentally as much as anything. That was the pleasure, knowing that I hadn't lost anything if at all. In fact, I was pleased to hear when they did all those tests that the doctor said to me you know congratulations, Mr. Choy, all your faults are intact. So I thought okay, I'm ready to go.

CO: The experience that you went through was, first of all, lung failure from a massive asthma attack. The doctors put you in a medically-induced coma, and then you had a heart attack.

WC: Yes.

CO: And you were months in the hospital — in and out of consciousness, awareness of people coming and going.

WC: Yes, it was 11 days in that semi-comatose state. And three days, you start losing you know the messages from the brain to the muscles. So I was quite stunned to realize that I could be thinking, watching how to do things, and be unable to do it — although I could think it. It's very humbling.

CO: How conscious were you of the people in the room? You had numbers of guests coming in and out.

WC: Yeah, they were coming in and out like a dream. And like dreams, some things are suddenly so vivid. But I couldn't always tell the difference between the hallucinations and the reality of who was with me. But thank God there was one reality when I was struggling against the darkness and against being surrounded by strange voices that my god daughter flew up from Arizona to be with me. And she was asked to help. And she stood over me, and calmed me down. And they were able then to deal with the heart attack.

CO: This memoir is very layered to your experience of this this near-death experience, where you actually came so close to dying twice really. At the same time, you are exploring yourself. These experiences actually taught you, took you on a journey to find out who you were.

WC: I was so delighted to know that in the end, I was just myself again. It's the kind of exploration to say what does it mean to go through this? Why are you going through? And why did you survive? You know the sense of guilt that one can feel because so many people devoted so much to keeping you alive. And what was the reason? And I'm just amazed at how wonderful human connection can be of people who care, and who made sense of just living. I'm not religious — not in any traditional sense. And my heroes June Callwood and Carol Shields, who knew that their condition was terminal. But all our condition is terminal. And I don't mean that as a bad cliché. I mean that as a truth that one has to face at some point. And when I had to face it, I realized I guess there's nothing beyond this. But you know what? I'm going to try and stick around. And if I'm surprised, I'll be delighted. But I discovered as I was going through what's been happening to me I am loved. That's when one belongs. And it transcends race and bloodlines. And in the end, I realized you know all my books are about how family is who loves you. But transcending that I've discovered — and as a gay man who thought that he may never have anybody to care for him in the end because I was warned of that from the Chinese of old Chinatown. You better get married, et cetera, et cetera. Who will take care of you? In the end, I realized love has no rules, and knowing that, I feel very powerfully. That's the beginning of how life made sense. Even if there is no hereafter, it made sense now.

JD: That was Canadian author Wayson Choy in conversation with Carol a decade ago, after the publication of his near-death account, Not Yet: A Memoir of Living and Almost Dying. Wayson Choy has died. He died Saturday. He was 80 years old

[Music: Ambient]

Part three: Hot Docs: For Sama

Hot Docs: For Sama

Guests: Waad al-Kateab, Edward Watts

JD: Waad al-Kateab didn't plan to raise a baby in a war zone. But that's what happened. And she wants her daughter to understand why — and to forgive her. That's the reason she made a film about her life under siege in Aleppo. Waad and her husband, Hamza, a doctor, lived in a makeshift hospital in the Syrian city of Aleppo. And that's where their baby, Sama, was born. Here is Waad filming her newborn:

SOUNDCLIP

WAAD AL-KATEAB: Seventh February, 2016. My first baby, Sama. Her name is meaning the sky. The sky we love, the sky we want. Without air forces, without bombing. Sky with sun, with clouds, with the birds. Sama. Sama. Do you hear me? She’s laughing.

[Sound: Warplanes over head]

JD: That sound at the end is Russian warplanes overhead — a near constant noise signalling that they should run for cover. And that casualties will soon arrive in the hospital. While Hamza and his colleagues treated those injured by the bombings, Waad used her camera to document what was going on. The result is the documentary "For Sama." Waad al-Kateab and her co-director, Edward Watts, sat down in our studio to speak with Carol.

CO: Waad and Edward, welcome to the “As It Happens” studio.

WAK: Thank you.

EDWARD WATTS: Ok.

CO: I have to say at the beginning that this is a remarkable documentary. It's very powerful, and I hope many people see it and appreciate it.

WAK: Thank you very much.

CO: Now, you begin the story in this documentary with something that's really quite happy, which is the spirit of revolution. The Arab Spring has arrived at your university in Aleppo, and there is a feeling of hope in the air. Can you describe that beginning back in 2012?

WAK: Actually, at that time, we saw like the world is very small. And we saw we could really change not just our life, but the whole world. We lived through very difficult years in Syria, which was like injustice, and like without freedom, without the objective.

CO: And there was a lot of corruption.

WAK: Yeah.

CO: It was basically a regime that many people believed had to go.

WAK: Yeah, of course. And I always dreamed to be a journalist. And at that time, my father and mother said like no, you can't be journalist. If you want to be a journalist, don’t believe that. The next day we’ll be in the prisons. So you should study anything else. And when you finish, you can go out of Syria and do whatever you want. And then when the revolution started, we are scared. We can't believe that you know this thing could happen in Syria. And yeah, it's happening. And we were part of it.

CO: We were covering it, of course, as every news agency was. And it was in the midst of Arab Spring. And here, we couldn't believe it. In Syria and Aleppo, this spirit — this street — was erupting. And it seemed wow! This revolution is going to take Syria. It was really a very, very powerful time. You must have yourself thought that that was the story?

WAK: Yeah, it was the amazing things that happened. Like we were seeing all these like protests, and all this like revolution on the ground. And on the like formal channels or in the regime propaganda, he was like first he denied everything happening. And second he started like to say yeah, there's something, but about these people are terrorist. These people are like bad people, they don't want anything good for the country. So at that time, we really found out that we should do something. And to have the evidence of what's happening. And that's why actually I start filming.

CO: Documenting. Edward, following the story of what was going on in Syria, was that your sense too that this revolution that broke out in the streets of many places — including Aleppo — was the turning point?

EW: Yeah, I really did. And from the beginning, I felt that it was such an important event for world history, for all of us really. Because the regime was so notoriously brutal, they’d suppress previous uprisings so violently. And yet, you know in my country — in the UK — there was an instant Bloody Sunday, where 13 protesters were killed by the armed forces. And what I was struck by in the early days of the revolution was the Syrians were suffering something like 10 Bloody Sundays every week. You know, you were getting hundreds of people being gunned down. And what was so incredible to me watching from afar was that still, thousands of people went back to the streets to protest peacefully. And for months and months in the face of this violence, they maintained their desire to stay peaceful, to stay true to their democratic beliefs. And I thought it was just incredibly impressive and important.

CO: Waad, at what point did it turn for you? At what point did you realize you are not part of a revolution, but you were in the midst of a war?

WAK: Actually, I'm still until now consider myself part of a revolution. And what happened in Syria like it started with revolution, and we wanted to be as peaceful the whole time. But the violence that we faced, it was unbelievable. And you can’t just be like you know peaceful while you have this like criminal regime is like trying to arrest like thousands of people, killed thousands of people, and then at the end, you know like it's finished with some solution as a displacement. So now, we have like whole cities destroyed, underground just because they couldn't accept that these people wants to change their lives. Of course, it's not war, but it's not civil war. It's war between like big governments as like the Russian’s interfered with the regime, Iranians with the regime, and our side as oppositions, there was like also like many groups fighting like between each other and against the regime, against ISIS. And then we have like ISIS, which is a very big, serious problem in Syria. And through all this, we still have the belief that this life could be better for the future, and this life could be changed. And the main thing is that that this wall of fear has broken.

CO: You, and with your camera, you document what happens. And it's so clear in the images you take that this is a war against civilians, as you just said. And that it's hitting neighbourhoods without even thinking about these children and people living there. You begin to document the beginning, the openings, and you help the opening of a hospital — a series of hospitals actually. But to try and find a safe place for people to come and see doctors. And you get very, very involved in one particular hospital. What was so important about that place?

WAK: Actually, the hospital was the place where good people come to, and feel maybe the safest place in the world. Because whatever you had, if you hurt, if you have pain, so you're going just to the doctor because you feel that this place could be the safe one. Which like in Syria, the hospital was a big target by the regime. And because my relationship was Hamza as a friend through the protests, Hamza is my husband, and he's a doctor in one of the hospitals. So I lived in that place, as I found out that there is like kind of activist nurses, doctors, and these people who I know from the university. I was there as a single like woman by myself. So I really needed kind of a family to be there. So we lived in this place, which could be the easiest place for me as a woman to be there.

CO: It became more than just a family, and became your family, became you married, you found Hamza, who was a doctor there. And it's just one of the most beautiful scenes in the film is your wedding. What did Hamza say to you as you got married?

WAK: Like it's something like…

CO: Okay, I remember. It’s that you run along a dangerous road, but in the end, it was a road to freedom.

WAK: Yeah. And he said to me like come, and let's go through this way together. And we show that at the end of this way, we have the freedom that we really dreamed of.

CO: We were speaking about a documentary called “For Sama”. And we were speaking with Waad al-Kateab, along with Edward Watts, who was a co-director on this documentary. And the story about Sama is this whole documentary is a letter to Sama. It's about her, and she is born. What was it like to have her? That your daughter come into your life?

WAK: At that time, we were belong to that city, and we were decided together — Hamza and me — to be like this is our life, and we will live here forever. We don't want to be out. With the fear of being targeted or in a risky situation, and on the other hand, you have the feeling that this is my life. And I want to build something. So we felt just like now we can maybe have a child. it was a very difficult decision. But that's what I explained and the whole film. Because we really want something to make us more belong to the city. And this is the life that we are, you know? We want a baby to be part of the country, part of the life. And Sama was the first things that gave us the hope, and same time, give was more like feeling that we are responsible of something more.

CO: Did it change the way you saw your role because you had this little girl you had to protect?

WAK Actually, the main things that Sama gave us the feeling that we should stay alive more. Before Sama, we were actually don't care if we were killed or not. We knew that each moment we would be killed, and we were happy for that because we believed in the revolution. But after Sama, it was something like no, we will stay in the revolution, we will believe in this, but we also wants to stay alive. We want to have our family, and bring more children, and be here. And we want this good future for her.

CO: You didn't want this war, you didn't invite this war into your lives, you're not responsible for it, and yet, you say to your daughter — you ask her — will you ever forgive me? Why?

WAK: At that time, I wasn't expecting anything will happened. Like the most feeling was that we will not be survive. And in each moment, Hamza or me will be killed, or she will be killed. Or one of us have a very bad injury, or she will have this. So I wasn't sure what the end of this story will be. But I do believe at that time, that this is our life, we are Syrian people, we have the revolution, and we have this principle which we should fight for. So whatever the cost to us, we should live it. But, of course, I want to apologize for her. And I was very worried if anything happened, will she forgave me or not? And even now, like I don't know what the affect that Sama has. When she will grow up, we will find out together. And I know that wasn't easy at all.

CO: You had on one occasion, you and your family — you and Hamza and Sama — leave the city, and you leave Syria. You go into to Turkey to be with a relative who is not well. It must have been tempting to stay? There must have been some thought in your head we shouldn't go back. We are a family, we have this little girl. Why did you go back?

WAK: Because we should go back. It wasn't that difficult for us to take that choice at that moment. I looked at Hamza's eyes, and we were just like we should go, we should go. He said yes, we should go, and that's it. And the little thinking was about Sama as should we leave her alone or not with her grand mom or something? And they tried to speak with us as you should leave Sama. You should go if you want. But you shouldn't take Sama with us. But at that moment, we just felt that we are a family should be together. There is something I can't really describe. I can't really explain. But we were do believe that there’s our destiny, and there’s our home, and there’s where we should be. And there’s something was Hamza always saying like for me or for Sama too that I can't look at any child in Aleppo, and I can't treat any child in Aleppo why? I don't care about them if I will keep my daughter safe, and be here like for them. Can you help me answer this with English?

EW: Yeah. The only thing I'd add is the sense that this was a question I always asked Waad and Hamza all the time. Because you feel naturally, of course, they wanted to stay out with the young girl — with Sama when — she was so young, and the war was getting so intense. And they were always like absolutely, we didn't hesitate, we needed to be in the city because that was where Sama's future was being decided. That was where we felt just this overwhelming, almost inexplicable need to be. And so it kind of defied rational explanation. I think that's what we concluded in the end.

WAK: And we lived with these people you know for five years in this situation. And I can’t just like turn my back and say ok, I want to be safe. I want my child to be safe. While I'm sure that other people like can't be. What about the other people?

CO: You documented with your camera in just a journalist's eye. You didn't shake. You documented in the hospital children dying. They were dead or dying while you filmed them. People came in with their blood leaving them, and your husband trying to save their life, and the other doctors trying to save them. And you watch them — your camera watched them die. You saw your city destroyed. You filmed it all with a clear… not coldness, but you just were I am going to document everything. You're going to look into the eyes of this child as this child leaves us. How did you do that? How did you see yourself as not just the woman living there with a child and being part of it, but as a journalist who to took a step back?

WAK: It's actually like the strength that you have it when you know that I will be killed in any moment. And I know that that scene should be out for people to watch. And this scene could be my daughter, could be me, could be Hamza. So I was like forced myself to do this because I know that this is the only things I could do for these people, for myself, for my future. And many moments, I was like just crying while I'm watching. In other moments, I was just like turn the camera off. And then I don't want to explain, but I have this responsibility. I have something to do there. And this is the only thing I could do. I'm not a doctor; I can't treat anyone. And I'm not a fighter; I can't fight, you know? The only thing that I can do is just like to film, to document this because the whole world is watching a lot of this like similar to this footage, but nothing happened. I was really hopeful, optimistic that something will make a difference. Something will let the people outside said this should stop. And, unfortunately, like it's still happening until now.

CO: And Edward, when you saw the pictures — these images — that Waad had captured, and how unflinching they are, how fearless they look, you're not going to get away with this world. You're going to see what it looks like to have children die before you. You're going to see what these doctors went through. I've never seen anything quite like it. And when you first saw the images that Waad brought to you, what were your impressions, what was your reaction?

WE: It's hard to sum it up in sort of in a few words really. It was on so many different layers of response. I mean it's just such an extraordinary and incredible archive of conflict, but also of humanity, you know? And I think one of the things that's so special about what Waad captured was the fact that how death and life, light and dark, humour and despair live side by side. And I think my real feeling was just what a huge responsibility we had as a team, and me, and all of us who were involved…

WAK: And the audience.

WE: And the audience. But also, to live up to this material. To take this huge, incredible archive, which it was like an extraordinary mosaic of different shots, and different material from the hospital stuff you're describing, to the beautiful personal stuff with Sama. And it was this vast web, and how to weave that into something that would be manageable, and the audiences could connect with was daunting.

CO: And did you have moments when you wondered how much the viewer could take, at what point they’d say I have to turn away, I can't even look. Yes, Waad, you were unblinking, you were going to show us everything, but did you feel that we as viewers would say no, please?

WE: That was one of the hardest things. It really was. Because we were caught between this bind that actually you have to understand that an audience coming in from the streets of a Western city can only take so much. But also, again back to this word responsibility, we felt we had a responsibility to show the reality that you’re talking about. To make people see this is what this war looked like for innocent people. And I think trying to find that position was one of the challenges. That's why we spent two years working together on it, and debating, and pushing, and pulling. Because I mean I promise you when I hope a lot of people will see the film, and they will be flabbergasted to say the least about the dark moments. But there was a lot worse — things that are burned into my mind that I will never forget. And I wasn't even there. So it was the responsibility to show people the truth, but not to overwhelm them that their minds just shut down.

CO: I have in studio with me Edward Watts, and I'm speaking with him, along with Waad al-Kateab about this extraordinary documentary that they have made about Syria, about the siege of Aleppo. It's called “For Sama”. Waad, this daughter of yours in the middle of the siege, and you could see it was affecting her. What did you see in her face? What did you see in her eyes that concerned you?

WAK: The most difficult things that she was reacting as any baby could should be. She was very like tough baby. She was very… I don't know how to say this, but she's reacting in many places as an adult. And sometimes when like she should’ve cry she wasn’t. So it was something very difficult because I was worried I can't do anything for her now, and I want her to be safe. I want her to be not affected. But at the same time, I see the other children what's happening with them, and what's going on. And I expected that she will be one of them at any moment. So I really I felt helpless.

CO: And yet, as a journalist again, you documented it, you filmed it, and you also filmed your own husband. You were right up close with Dr. Hamza — with Hamza — filming what he was going through, interviewing him at key moments about what he was going through. What did you see in your husband? What effect did all this have on him?

WAK: Hamza was all the time the one who couldn't be sad, couldn't be crying. He always optimistic, and it's not just my opinion, but all the people who lives in the hospital and around us as a friends, they see this in Hamza. And the moment when they saw Hamza was like worried, so they feel was like we are now all dead because Hamza is worried now. So it's unbelievable. And through all the time he was like pretend to be very strong man to support us all. And in some moment when he was very destroyed, or like desperate, or sad I like felt that there is strength in myself I couldn't expect. So it was kind of a good relationship because both of us were together. We were survive. And this is actually what we have from the bigger circle in the film, which is Sama and the other kids. So it's one of them, and it's like friend or like single man or woman who were inside Aleppo they were because of the war, because of the revolution, because we were all having the same destiny together. Maybe that's the only thing that make us survive.

CO: You mentioned your friends, and they are wonderful. And this is I think what Edward was saying is that there is not just these moments of darkness and horror, but these moments when you feel happy, when there’s such joy. And these two people — this woman whose face lights up. She never seems to be broken by anything. And they are just such an inspiration. But you document how the war, especially in the last days when they know that it's hopeless, they have to leave. And what effect it has on your friends.

WAK: Actually, it's affected for each one who lived in Aleppo and believe in this revolution, and felt that at the end you know the choice of being there have taken from us. We were all together in very bad situation, and we've never thought that we would leave. And at that moment when like the regime and the Russians decided that no, we will take over this city, and the only choice we have even we will be killed or we will be displacement out. And that's actually I think we wouldn't accept. Until now, we didn't accept this. Now [she] lives in Turkey, and we live now in London, and other friends lives around the world. And all of us, until now, we can't believe that we are now out. We can't believe that we can't be back. I can understand all the difficult things that we went through, but the displacement was the most difficult things.

CO: And Hamza says something to you which is extremely disturbing. As you're realizing that this is it, the Russians have said we're coming in. You’re the last neighbourhood, you're done, you're finished, it's done. Aleppo is going to fall. And Hamza says something to you about what you should do with Sama. What does he say?

WAK: He said to me like we should abandon Sama, and we should leave her in any room or anything without give her any like I.D. or any paper that was this girl is. Because she had very good the chance to be survive if they didn't find out who’s her parents.

CO: And why would that be a problem?

WAK: They will kill her, of course, because they are dealing with each person in this country as a terrorist.

CO: And because you are a journalist, and they knew that?

WAK: Because I'm journalist, that’s one crime. Because Hamza is a doctor, this is the second crime. Because we were living in the opposition area, which is the third the crime. Because we stayed until the end in a place he wants to destroy, this is like forth crime. And when they will find out that we are the people who where like wants freedom, and dignity, and all these things, which is the biggest crime.

CO: We spoke with a number of times many people in Aleppo. But at that hospital, we spoke with a doctor — it wasn't Hamza — another doctor whose name we didn't reveal. But that he told us about the most horrible situation. Dr. Waseem was killed, and what a marvelous doctor he was. We interviewed the doctor about what a loss it was each time one of these doctors was killed, and that could have been Hamza just as easily.

WAK: Of course, Dr. Waseem was one of our friends, and we lived together in the hospital, and he was the first doctor to check like Sama for the first time. I really didn't expect that I would be survive. And even when I document all these things, I wasn't expect that I will make a film, you know? I just felt that the only thing I could do is just to document this, so maybe someone outside will find this footage one day, and they will make this documentary.

CO: And the pictures of the devastation of Aleppo in ruin as you were leaving. But it's so clear that you love this place, even this place is almost dust at this point, and empty of people. Everyone has left, and you loved it. How difficult was it for you to leave, Waad?

WAK: Everything we went through, we were expecting something very bad. But the only thing that we didn't expect that we would leave the city. When we left, it was the end of the story. You know like we couldn't do anything more. Like even with the bomb, with everything happened, we were okay, you know? We were okay .We could deal with all these things, we can bear everything. But when they leaving, when the displacement happened, it was like they take everything from you.

CO: You've had another child since you left.

WAK: Yeah.

CO: She was conceived when you were still there, but she's now born. The image when you're holding her for the first time, you say her head's next to you, you say she smells like Aleppo.

WAK: Yeah, that's the last thing I take from Aleppo. And when she gave birth, I felt that this is something I brought with me from Aleppo. She don't know anything about Aleppo, but it's still when she will grow up, I will tell her everything, she will watch the film, and I can really feel that I had two girls from Aleppo.

CO: And what do you think they're going to make of this when they grow up, when they're able to watch, when both Sama and [her sister] are able to watch this documentary. What do you think they'll learn about you and their father?

WAK: The only thing that I really wanted them to know that we did everything for them, for a better future, for them and for the whole children of Syria. I would love for them like to hear that we are proud of you and my father.

CO: I think when they do watch this, they will say that. Because I think it's a remarkable documentary, and so powerful, and so important, and I thank you, Waad, for making it. And thank you, Edward, for making it too. Thank you both.

WAK: Thank you.

EW: Thank you.

JD: Waad al-Kateab and Edward Watts are the directors of the documentary film, "For Sama." They were in the "As It Happens" studio. You can find that interview — along with some photographs — on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. "For Sama" is airing at the Hot Docs festival in Toronto starting tonight.

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April 29, 2019 episode transcript

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