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The AIH Transcript for April 25, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is “As It Happens”.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: Share and share dislike. Canada's Privacy Commissioner has serious problems with the way Facebook hands over user data — so he's taking the company to court.

JD: All in the family. Yazidi leaders break with tradition and announce that the children of Yazidi women who were enslaved by ISIS are welcome in their community.

CO: Fatal miscalculation. The U.S.-led coalition originally claimed a few hundred civilians were killed during air strikes in Syria in 2017. Amnesty International now says it was more than 1,600.

JD: He's got the whole hands in his world. Or at least, a Newfoundland man claims he's found images of Jesus's hands inside a broken rock — which is now for sale, although the price isn't set in stone.

CO: Folding its cards, instead of your pants. A Japanese company's high-tech AI robot was supposed to fold laundry — but the company has filed for bankruptcy, because it couldn't increase the machine's creasing.

JD: And..."hey, you two, get a broom!" A married couple tells us about their journey to the World Mixed Doubles Curling Championships — where they're the first team ever to compete for Nigeria.

JD: "As It Happens", the Thursday edition. Radio that finds them between a rock and a hurry-hard place.

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Privacy commissioner, Raqqa attack, Jesus rock

Privacy commissioner

Guest: Daniel Therrien

JD: Canada's privacy commissioner is taking Facebook to court. Daniel Therrien made the announcement this morning, after a joint investigation with British Columbia's privacy commissioner. They found that the social media and data-harvesting behemoth committed what they're calling "serious contraventions of Canadian privacy laws." The focus of the investigation was Facebook's collaboration with companies like Cambridge Analytica, the political consultancy that was given access to the data of millions of unwitting users including hundreds of thousands of Canadians. We reached Commissioner Daniel Therrien in Gatineau.

CO: Commissioner Therrien, why have you found it necessary to take Facebook to court?

DANIEL THERRIEN: Because although we have investigated their privacy policies for more than a year now, and have come to conclusions under the law, Facebook is disagreeing with my office — the federal office — and our BC colleagues about a certain number of violations of privacy law. So the company is simply treating the conclusions of regulators in Canada as mere opinion that they can disregard and continue as they were.

CO: And what exactly? What have they ignored about what do you have asked them to do?

DT: So to remind your listeners, the facts were, of course, revealed more than a year ago by British newspapers to the effect that Facebook failed to protect its users personal information, which lend certain analytics companies to then use that information for political messaging and micro-targeting of electors in the U.S. What we looked at was the terms and conditions — the privacy terms and conditions — of Facebook. Why did that make that possible, and what impact would any deficiencies have on Canadians? And what we found essentially with our colleagues is that the privacy conditions put in place by Facebook are an empty shell — that they do not protect privacy. Facebook discloses information for instance to third-party applications that sit on the platform without informed consent by their users with potential harm to users, which manifested itself in the case of Cambridge Analytica with micro-targeting of electors.

CO: And when you say Cambridge in Analytica is the one that has been under the spotlight because a whistleblower named Christopher Wylie, a Canadian, who revealed the degree to which Cambridge Analytica was getting access to all this Facebook data, and there was also another Canadian company Aggregate IQ that was part of this equation as well.

DT: Absolutely.

CO: Mark Zuckerberg, head of Facebook, has been able to dodge all kinds of questions about how and why that information was shared to that extent. Were you able to get any response from him at all?

DT: Well, our focus again was on the terms and conditions. We had long discussions with representatives of Facebook on the failings of their privacy policies in general. So the Cambridge Analytica issue is just one application that resides on the Facebook platform. There are millions of these applications. And the protections in question in our view are not effective. They are an empty shell.

CO: And Facebook, how did they respond when you confronted them with this?

DT: Facebook disagreed with our conclusions. We say that Facebook discloses information to third-party applications, which results in certain legal obligations to inform users properly — meaningfully and so on. Facebook says that it is not disclosing information to applications — that it is merely making their users' information available the user's request. That's a good sign, I think, that Facebook does not accept responsibility for its actions. It is shifting responsibility either to individual users or to third-party application developers with which they do business. That's the nub of the problem actually that Facebook as you say dodges questions, or in terms of compliance with the law, does not assume its responsibilities towards its users.

CO: And yet, we hear from Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, who says the company has, quote, “a privacy-focused vision for the future of social networking.” And has given statements and speeches about how committed he is to that. Yet, you're saying that privacy protections that are there for Canadians are, quote, “an empty shell.”

DT: It's impossible to reconcile.

CO: It is.

DT: What Mr. Zuckerberg says one, that he wants to develop a privacy-focused company. But also, that he wants to work with government and regulators to ensure that his users’ privacy is well protected. And then when comes the time to actually have a conversation with regulators, the conclusion is Facebook disagrees with our conclusions. It does not wish to implement our recommendations. It's impossible to reconcile.

CO: But I guess from that point of view, why should they care? I mean they have despite all that's been revealed about how they shared data — our data — how they have exploited our information, they are growing as a company. Why should they care?

DT: What I would say is that, first of all, I'm not blaming individuals to continue to be on the social network. People have a need to communicate. And in 2019, this means using digital services — including social media platforms. I think though that individuals expect government to protect them when they engage on these platforms so that they do not have to read a 50-page privacy policy and understand these intricacies. And that they can freely engage with these platforms and live a modern life in 2019 with digital services while being protected. That's I think what is expected. And I think Facebook will care when there are laws that force them to care with penalties, with proper powers for regulating agencies to ensure that they actually respect people's privacy and that they're no longer allowed to say we care when they don't.

CO: Are you on Facebook?

DT: I'm not personally on Facebook. And as an institution, we had a limited presence on Facebook — The Office of the Privacy Commissioner. But as of now, we have decided no longer to be there because of the lack of accountability that we found in this investigation.

CO: Commissioner Therrien, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

DT: Welcome.

JD: Daniel Therrien is Canada's Privacy Commissioner. We reached him in Gatineau, Quebec. Facebook responded to the commissioner's announcement with a statement that reads, quote, "after many months of good-faith cooperation and lengthy negotiations, we are disappointed that the OPC considers the issues raised in this report unresolved. There's no evidence that Canadians' data was shared with Cambridge Analytica, and we've made dramatic improvements to our platform to protect people's personal information." Unquote.

[Music: Ambient]

Raqqa attacks

Guest: Donatella Rovera

JD: One-hundred-and-fifty-nine. According to Amnesty International, that's the number of civilians the U.S.-led coalition has acknowledged killing during its air assault on Raqqa. The official line is that every practical precaution was taken to avoid harming non-combatants, in the push to drive ISIS from its self-declared capital in Syria. However, Amnesty International has been on the ground investigating. And in a report released today, it says Raqqa's civilians paid a far higher price. Donatella Rovera led the investigation. We reached Ms. ROvera in London.

CO: Ms. Rovera, you're saying that the coalition is only acknowledging 159 deaths in Raqqa. What does your investigation tell you?

DONATELLA ROVERA: That there have been ten times as many. The number that we have for the civilian casualties in Raqqa is in the excess of 1,600. I personally investigated 641 cases on the ground in Raqqa. The very small percentage of cases that the coalition acknowledges are the cases that Amnesty International and Airwars have submitted to the coalition. The coalition has failed in its duty to investigate. They have not proactively investigated cases. It's only when we have done the work for them that they acknowledge this small percentage.

CO: Okay, but why are you so confident of those numbers? What accuracy can you point to?

DR: I have been carrying out field investigation into a very large number of cases. I've spent months in Raqqa on the grounds visiting more than 200 sites of coalition strikes, interviewing 400 people who are survivors and witnesses of the strikes. Examining the material evidence — including the remains of the munitions that were used by the coalition forces. And in addition, we've done remote sensing, which has included examining and analyzing more than 2 million frames of satellite imagery for the period of the coalition operation in Raqqa, which has destroyed or damaged more than 1,1000 buildings.

CO: We covered, of course, the events as most news agencies did. And, of course, it was impossible to get accurate information from remote as to what the coalition airstrikes and the shelling was doing to people in Raqqa. At the same time, we knew that ISIS was making it impossible for people to escape. They were using landmines and snipers to keep those people hostage inside. So what else could the coalition strikes have done?

DR: Well, the coalition was very dismissive about the presence of large numbers of civilians in the city. And certainly, bombing buildings with civilians inside and killing entire families is not the answer to a situation where civilians are trapped and unable to leave prevented from leaving from ISIS. The aim of the operation of the coalition was to protect the civilians, at least that is what they have stated. And at the same time, they have also stated openly that they're fired more artillery into Raqqa than they had ever done anywhere at any time since the Vietnam War. Everybody knows that artillery is a battlefield munition. It is not accurate. It should never be used in an urban environment where there are civilians presence.

CO: But should the coalition have known how many civilians were trapped inside there before it began its assault?

DR: The coalition knew that there where a lot of civilians trapped in Raqqa because organizations like ours, the United Nations told them because there were civilians that were managing to escape from Raqqa every day with great difficulty and putting their lives in danger. The people were getting out of Raqqa. I was near Raqqa, and I was speaking to them every day. And the coalition could and should have done the same. The coalition did not speak to people who were coming out of Raqqa at the time, and the coalition has still not been speaking to people in Raqqa.

CO: The spokesperson for the U.S.-led coalition says that, in response to what you're saying, they had to balance out the damage that ISIS was capable of doing, the atrocities toward people that it was capable of, and it had to be stopped. And they had to balance that against what casualties might happen by this assault on Raqqa. Do you buy that?

DR: No, because as I said, there was a lot more that the coalition could and should have done. Some of it depended on the choice of munitions. Artillery is very cheap, but it has a very high cost for human lives. Air-delivered munitions that were used by the coalition's where precise, but the coalition did not put the effort and the resources that were needed to verify the target in many cases. Because if it had done so, it would have not taken out entire buildings with entire families inside, so we are not looking for a kind of a utopian situation where there would be a zero casualty in an urban conflict like it was in Raqqa. But there are possibilities to take measures to minimize and to reduce civilian casualties. And the coalition did not do all that it could and should have done to reduce the harm to civilians. And now, the coalition 18 months after the operation is also not doing all that it could and should do to investigate what the consequences of its operations have been for the civilian population.

CO: All right we will continue to follow this story. Ms. Rovera, I really appreciate you telling us this update tonight. Thank you.

DR: Thank you.

CO: Goodnight.

DR: Thank you.

JD: Donatella Rovera is Amnesty International's Senior Crisis Response Adviser. We reached her in London.

[Music: Sombre]

Jesus rock

Guest: Barry Craig

JD: When someone says they've found Jesus, usually they mean they've come to some sort of spiritual awakening. Barry Craig means it a little more literally. The Newfoundland man recently discovered a pair of rocks that he says look like the Praying Hands of Jesus. Now he's trying to get those hands off his hands, by putting them up for sale. We reached Barry Craig in McIvers, Newfoundland.

CO: Barry, first of all, can you describe these rocks for us.

BARRY CRAIG: I was the engineering inspector on the job — the forest access road in McIvers. And we came across some rock up side of the hill — some fractured rock — that the excavator was digging away at. And it had to be one of the rocks fell down and split pretty well right in front of me. And when it split, seeing this quartz-like structure in each of the two halves that was there. When I got home, I thought one of those rocks looks like a hand of some sort. So when I went back to work the next morning, sure enough, the two rocks were there. I was like wow! This looks like the praying hands of Jesus, you know? it's fossilized in a rock.

CO: Okay, but when you say the praying hands of Jesus, I mean they’re not hands, right? You're seeing it's a rock formation, it's not actually hands.

BC: No, it's not actually hands. It's the symbol on it. It's symbolism on it. It’s not actually hands, no. You know, but when you look at it, there's many representations worldwide as the symbol of Jesus’s praying hands, you know? You can Google there's many types. But those rocks when they're opened up, you can clearly see the resemblance of two hands — like praying hands. And that's very symbolic, I must say.

CO: And are you the only one who can see them, or do others you've shown also see the hands of Jesus?

BC: Oh no, many others have said the same thing. It like wow! I mean this really do look like… I mean I've had made comments on Facebook when I when I posted it, it looks like the the Pillsbury Doughboy hands, and sock puppets, and so on. It's Facebook; you're going to get people saying everything anyway. But I mean most people that see it and have seen it, it’s clearly represented to it looks like praying hands, you know? And the thing about it, it's rare. There's only one. You'll never find another one like it in the world.

CO: Oh yeah, rocks are like that, aren’t they? So like did you have… was it like a spiritual moment for you when you saw what you think are the hands of Jesus?

BC: You know what? Like I said, I believe in God and so on. But I'm not a regular churchgoer or anything like that. But yeah, it was striking, I've got to say. It really was. It was like wow! The symbolism behind this I think is monumental. It's you know it's a symbol of Jesus Christ hands in fossilized in a natural geological formation. And I mean I think it’s huge.

CO: Okay, so what are you going to do with these rocks?

BC: They’re up for sale, to be honest with you. And like I said, because I mean I really picture it if this was in a glass case on a display at some church or some church organization or even a museum, and with the story told on it. It's the symbol. It's the symbolism of Jesus Christ’s hands and God that's worldwide. If this was on the display, and there's only one like it in the world, I mean if this was a painting that was found by Michelangelo that was painted 300 years ago on a piece of canvas, it’d probably be worth millions today.

CO: Okay, but they are rock, right? So I mean you have had people who've seen the face of Jesus on cheese toast, and in chocolate bars, and they've all kinds of images, clouds, in cappuccino. So how different is this from all those other times people think they see images of Jesus?

BC: Well the difference between this rock and we'll say a piece of toast or a cappuccino, this was like again, it’s the connection between earth and God. There's only one. There's only one. It’s not going to change. It can't be reproduced. You'll never find another one.

CO: Well, maybe they could be there praying hands of the Prophet Mohammed.

BC: [laugh] Well like I said, they could be. But I mean in our society, and in Christianity again, the praying is of Jesus is very common and is well-known amongst Christianity. And that's what it looks like. Now, anybody can put their own interpretation to it. But I can assure you that most people that see this — and especially on display with the story — they're going to see what I see. And I mean like I say, I'm not a staunch Christian or anything like that. But it really do resemble. And like I said, you've got to look at the connection, and the debate’s been ongoing for years has been you know did God create the earth, you know or was it was it formed by the big bang?

CO: Here's the question. What's your price tag you put on these rocks?

BC: Well to be honest, today I've had a couple offers already that's in the five digits — the lower five digits, and I'm not budging on that. I mean I'm sure we most of us all dream of someday finding treasure. Well, maybe this could be mine. I don't know.

CO: Okay. You have the precedency. You got a woman who sold a piece of grilled cheese with what she says was the imprint of the face of Jesus on it, she got 28,000. Is that the kind of price you're looking for?

BC: I think there's a big difference in this rock specimen and that piece of grilled cheese. That’s probably going to rot over time. This is a rock that’s well-preserved and that’s probably millions of years old.

CO: Okay, Barry. But if you really believe this to be some kind of miracle where God has revealed himself through these hands of Jesus in the rocks, why not just give it to a church? Why do you need to make money off of it?

BC: Why not? I can't really answer that. Why sell it or why not sell it? I mean that's you know that's a matter of one’s choice. And I mean if it's valuable, that's a matter of one's choice.

CO If it goes into someone's private collection, then the world will not be able to see the hands of Jesus in the rock that you discovered.

BC: But they would still have it. I mean that's like famous paintings. There's paintings that's worth hundreds of millions of dollars that has been auctioned off that that private collectors have. They're not seen worldwide, but the value is still there.

CO: All right Barry, good to talk to you. Thanks.

BC: All right. Thank you. Bye bye.

CO: Bye.

JD: Barry Craig is the owner of two rocks that he says look like the praying hands of Jesus. We reached him in McIvers, Newfoundland. And you can see a photograph of Mr. Craig’s artifact on the “As It Happens” webste: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Show tune]

Laundroid

JD: Washing machines wash, dryers dry. It doesn’t matter how high-tech they get, right? That's still basically all they do. So, I mean, it's great that we don't have to take our soiled overalls down to the creek with a washboard anymore. But where's the breakthrough that’s really going to help with the laundry? Where's the machine that folds everything? I know, I sound angry. I'm not. No, I am. And I'm angry because until today, I didn't realize how close we'd come. The Laundroid is — was — an AI laundry-folding robot, designed by a Japanese company called "Seven Dreamers". It was able to identify the article of clothing you put in it, calculate the proper technique, and deliver a neatly folded T-shirt, button-up shirt, lederhosen. Unfortunately, it didn't quite do what it said on the tin. One tech reporter gave the Laundroid a dark shirt — which had to be pried out after 15 minutes. Engineers from "Seven Dreamers" told the reporter Laundroid's cameras "couldn't recognize" the shirt. And, of course, what robots cannot recognize, they destroy. There were less dramatic problems, too. One: it took about five minutes to fold any single article of clothing. And two: it was initially priced at over 20 thousand Canadian dollars — and, apparently, the company couldn't find a way to make it less expensive. So now — after accumulating nearly 27 million dollars in debt — Seven Dreamers has filed for bankruptcy. You know what? And I think we should give the Laundroid so credit here. It wasn't great with clothes — but it did manage to get a whole company to fold.

[Music: Instrumental]

Part two: Yazidi women welcomed, Nigeria curling

Yazidi women welcomed

Guest: Khider Domlee

JD: Under the so-called “Islamic Sate” Yazidi women were kidnapped, held as sex slaves, and forced to convert to Islam. Those who escaped faced another challenge — returning to their community with children fathered by the militants who had enslaved them. Traditionally, Yazidi officials have rejected mixed marriages and children born to outsiders. But this week, the Yazidi Supreme Spiritual Council announced that they will now welcome these children into their community. Khider Domle is a Yazidi man, and minority rights activist. We reached him in Duhuk, Northern Iraq.

CO: Mr. Domle, just how significant is today's announcement that these children born to Yazidi women who were enslaved by ISIS will be welcomed back into the Yazidi community?

KHIDER DOMLE: Today, it is a big history for Yazidi religious. It has come after big working. And about now because there are a lot of discussion — a lot of passion about Yazidis. They are not welcoming those children's. Yazidi spiritual high religions, they understand this. So they make this announcement. They say all of the survivor, they are welcome. So it means children's and women's. Yazidi’s religious also give the woman the right to have their children in her names. And also, we are now thinking how to advocate with the Iraqi law because that is in the biggest challenges to face this issue.

CO: And so before this decision was made by the Yazidi Supreme Spiritual Council, what happened to women who returned home with those children to Iraq? Were they accepted, or did they have to leave their children behind?

KD: This is very good questions because till now, we don't have that big numbers. The Yazidi General Directory Affairs, they announce they have just registered seven women with the children till now. And they say they are in the safe places. Nothing happened to them. The family they will come the family they support. So because of that, before the number become the bigs, the Yazidi leaders they understand they should have this decisions. Second, there are a lot of children now in the orphanage centre in Baghdad and Syria and other places in the Rojava. And we find another woman also they don't want to return back because of those children. Because of that, it's like they're opening the door. So now we are looking for the support from the international community — especially Iraqi governments to register those children as Yazidi’s because we have a big issue that the Iraqi law for the woman who have the orphans with unknown fathers, they register them as a Muslim. When they register the children as a Muslim, so directly the family they will be registered as a Muslim. This is the big issue in the Iraqi legislation.

CO: Okay, if I understand correctly. So bringing these children back, you had to get to the social stigma, the social resistance of women who had had children with these ISIS fighters outside of the Yazidi community. That was a problem, but also now you have a problem in that these children have no status under Iraqi law, is that right?

KD: Exactly. They don't have a status. So because of that, we are looking at the Iraqi legislation. They are ready to change these articles. For the stigma of the community, I was understanding this very well. It's not easy to ask the family. They have disappeared more than 10, 15, 20 persons, and maybe one of those people who killed those one he will be the father of those children. That is the big stigma. Because of this, Yazidi community they are now doing the big reform with the social life, with the religious life, with the other things. And also for the stigma, I understand it's not easy for a woman. She have children, and she know the father of the children who has being participate for the mass graves killings and genocide process and rape other woman and kill the old woman and mens. ISIS, they want to do this too to make this problem with Yazidi community that they tell him Yazidi they will not accept you. But Yazidi, they say we are welcoming the woman, welcoming the children, welcoming all of the survivors. So now the game it is in Iraqi law to accept what Yazidi they want. And also, it's a part of the reparations and rehabitations of those woman to support them to reintegrate to their community and to the real life with Yazidi people.

CO: These women themselves, they were taken from Iraq, from their Yazidi communities, enslaved, taken to Syria, where they were forced into sex slavery, had these children. Many of them are in displaced peoples camps. Others have gone all over the world — they've had to leave. Some of them are in Canada. All these issues, what are you actually going to do to encourage these women to return to their community?

KD: This is really still early to say this. We hope, we understand there are still a lot of women in Syria. Maybe we still we have some woman in Iraq. Also the area that was not been liberated. They are welcome. And we welcoming, but we understand if also maybe they can find opportunities with their children's to take them with them. But this is an issue we should face, and we should be more human thinking for this future for those children, not for what happened to the past.

CO: Mr. Domle, we will leave it there. And I thank you very much for telling us what's happening with these Yazidi women and their kids.

KD: Thank you for your support.

CO: Yes, thank you.

KD: Have a good night.

JD: Khider Domle is a minority rights activist. We reached him in Duhuk, Northern Iraq.

[Music: Ambient]

Hit-and-run appeal

JD: The police want the driver in a St. Patrick's Day hit-and-run to come forward. And so today, in a stunning move, they wheeled the victim out in front of the camera, in his hospital bed. Last month, 21-year-old Navindra Sookramsingh was walking home after a night out in Brampton, Ontario when he collapsed. As he was trying to stand, a driver slammed into him. Now, doctors aren't sure he'll ever be able to walk again. The driver hasn't been identified. So today, Mr. Sookramsingh took matters into his own hands. Here is part of what he had to say at a Peel Police news conference today.

SOUNDCLIP

NAVINDRA SOOKRAMSINGH: I wanted to be here because I want this driver to have mercy. I'm 21 years old, and I had a life of love. I was always here for everyone. And I wanted to do what most people wanted to do: work, and just have the best life I could. And now, I can't walk. I barely survived. I don't know if I will be able to walk. And I can't move my hand. I can't talk. And I can’t enjoy a life where as a man I feel less off than everyone else. Do you know what that's like to feel? I'm not mad at you for hitting me because people do make accidents. And I don't want to see you get into any trouble. I just want you to be responsible for what you did to me. For what changes you made to my life. And it's going to be changed like this forever.

JD: Twenty-one-year-old Navindra Sookramsingh, making an appeal directly to the driver who hit him last month in Brampton, Ontario.

[Music: Ambient]

Nigeria curling

Guests: TJ Cole, Susana Cole

JD: It might be an understatement to call them underdogs. The curling mixed doubles world championship is under way right now in Norway. Canada, Japan, and Sweden are in the lead thaus far. Further down in the rankings — and substantially further down — is Nigeria. However, it's the first time in the history of curling that the African nation is competing. And it's the fulfillment of a lifelong dream for TJ Cole — half of Nigeria's husband-and-wife doubles team. We reached the Nigerian-American athlete at the tournament in Stavanger, Norway earlier this week.

CO: T.J., what was it like for you to walk into the opening ceremonies of these championships carrying the flag of Nigeria?

TJ COLE: Oh, it was one of the proudest moments of my life to be representing my country in a sport for the first time, and representing not only my country, but all of Africa.

CO: But you're an American, right?

TC: Yeah. I have dual.

CO: So your family's from Nigeria?

TC: Yes.

CO: So why did you want to compete as a Nigerian? Why did you want to represent Nigeria in these games?

TC: Because I'm proud of my country. I'm proud of our people. And I'm proud of our determination to build a curling federation that will be the first in all of Africa, you know? So we've been working hard, and we hope we maybe get sponsors or people who go to our GoFundMe page and help us build the very first curling rink in all of Africa.

CO: You live in Denver, right?

TC: Yes, and we live and train in Denver and Canada.

CO But okay. So lots of people get involved in a sport they like, but they don't start to think that they're going to start then training for championships and maybe the Olympics, right? So when did that idea enter your head?

TC: Oh, I have loved the Olympics since I was a small child. I had always it was one of my goals in life to compete in the Olympics in an event. And as we became better and better, it became the course that we wanted to go on.

CO: But why curling? I mean of all the sports you could maybe represent Nigeria in, why choose that one?

TC: Well, I'm much older now. I don't run as fast, jump as high, or throw as far as I might have years ago. And it was something that I could do with my wife, which was just an amazing thing to train hard together, to work together. It's brought us closer. It improves our communication. And it's just been so much fun.

CO: Okay, so you're in the curling mixed doubles. And you're in doubles with your with your wife, right? This is Susana.

SUSANA COLE: Yes, I'm here.

CO: Hi, Susana. This is Carol.

SC: Hi, Carol.

CO: So what's it like for you competing as a world-class curler for Nigeria?

SC: It's just amazing. It's just something that you know you never think in all of your life that you're going to find yourself in a situation like this. It’s just an amazing feeling. It's an honour. I just feel humbled to be here.

CO: Okay, but a whole bunch of things, right? First of all, did you ever think that you would be competing on the world stage in any sport?

SC: I did not. I did not, never, never had I considered this type of this level of competition until I met my husband.

CO: How are people reacting to this moment in your sports career?

SC: They’re happy. They're just amazed in what we've accomplished. And they're very supportive and encouraging.

TC: And you know we feel real excited because even though the win-loss column hasn't gone our way, we've come out against some of the world's best teams and won two or three ends, and have been somewhat successful still as young people learning the game.

CO: You've been getting some coaching from Canada, is that right?

TC: That's correct. Some of the best coaching.

CO: Where have you been doing that?

TC: Our coaches Ellery Robichaud, Jeanette Robichaud, and then Rick Perron. And they curl out of the Curling Centre of Excellence in Moncton, New Brunswick. And they have been phenomenal as to teaching not only myself, but preparing to teach the entire Nigerian men's team and mixed team.

CO: Okay, so there's more than just your team in curling, is that right?

TC: That's correct. We're growing the sport. I'm telling you look out, Nigeria is coming.

CO: Okay, so growing the sport. Did it even exist before you and Susana got involved in this?

TC: No. But what we did is we went to Nigeria last year, and we talked to a lot of folks. We've put on some dry curling clinics. We put the word out in the U.S. to Nigerian curlers, Nigerian-Americans who might curl. And so we've got a very good response. And we should be able to field almost all the different curling teams within the next year. But right now, we do have a men's team, and we do have a mixed team, and we have our mixed doubles.

CO: Are there curling rinks in Nigeria?

TC: No. In Nigeria, what we've done is we have several dry curling events. And we're doing like national championships with all the junior level players in the high schools and middle schools. We're putting on clinics. And then we're holding little mini tournaments to really just introduce the sport to all of Nigeria. So they know the basic rules. They know the equipment. They understand everything about the game. And like I said, we're working so hard to get a curling facility in Nigeria. That once we do that, we think we will really, really take off.

CO: People are comparing your curling team to the famous Jamaican bobsled team in 1988 Olympics.

TC: Yeah, yeah, “Cool Runnings!” And you know we're very proud. And you know in many ways we're so appreciative of them because they showed the way that if you have the heart, the drive, and the willpower you can make things happen. And you know in the last Olympics, in Nigeria, we had a women's bobsled team. And that also was very inspirational. I think where we think we're slightly different is we're building a program, and we are expecting to be as competitive as anyone in the world sooner rather than later.

CO: We'll be watching for you on the ice then.

TC: Thank you so, so much for your support.

SC: Thank you.

TC: And yes, just always remember, we'll be working hard.

CO: Okay, TJ and Susana, thank you. Bye-Bye.

TC: Bye-bye.

SC: Thank you. Goodbye.

CO: Good luck.

JD: TJ and Susana Cole make up Nigeria's mixed doubles curling team. They are representing the country as it participates for the first time in a world curling championship. We reached the Coles in Stavanger, Norway. And today, they got their first win — the beat France 8 to 5.

[Music: Lullaby]

Musical shed

On the NPR website, there is a terrific, dynamite tip for writing an effective headline. It goes like this, “Pretend an elevator door is shutting and you want to tell someone on the other side about a story.” Unquote. Great, great advice. The headline writers at the U.K.’s Bristol Live website didn't quite pull that off today because really there is no way the elevator stays open long enough for anyone to say. “Mystery of man walking down Bristol Street with musical shed on his head that blasts fire out of the chimney.” Now I have to give them credit, they did pack a lot into that headline. And yet, there are still many questions. So many questions such as mystery of who, walking where, with what on his head, blasting what out of what? Well, the truth is it turns out that there is no way to tell this story easily — Eeven when you have no word limit. Here is a breathtakingly long sentence from the Bristol Live story by reporter Tristan Cork. Quote, “Quite why there was a man with a miniature wooden shed on his head, with disco lights under the eaves, and fire blasting out of the chimney in time to the music the shed is also blasting out, remained a mystery to passers by, who stopped to watch with a mixture of fear, apprehension, bafflement, confusion, delight, and admiration.” Unquote. We have posted a video taken by one of those passers by on our Twitter feed.

[Music: Instrumental]

Part three: Hot Docs: “In My Blood It Runs”

NS no doctor

JD: 33-year-old Inez Rudderdam is being treated for cancer. A cancer she says could have been caught earlier if she had access to better health care. Earlier this week, Ms. Rudderdam posted a video to her Facebook page. Here's an excerpt.

SOUNDCLIP

INEZ RUDDERDAM: I don't even know where to start. I guess firstly, to the premier of Nova Scotia, I dare you to take a meeting with me. I dare you to take a meeting with me, and explain to me, and look into my eyes, and tell me that there is no healthcare crisis in my province of Nova Scotia. I dare you. I am a 33-year-old mother. I went undiagnosed with anal cancer for two years because I did not have access to a family doctor. And when I went to the ERs, I was brushed off. It's okay though, right? Because they caught it — they caught it when it was stage three, and I fought. I fought for my life. But there's no healthcare crisis.

JD: That’s an excerpt of a video that 33-year-old Nova Scotian Inez Rudderdam posted to Facebook this week. She is undergoing treatment for cancer. That video now has more than a million views.

[Music: Horns]

Hot Docs: “In My Blood It Runs”

Guests: Dujuan Hoosan, Megan Hoosan, James Mawson, Maya Newell

JD: Dujuan Hoosan is a pretty remarkable kid. He's insightful. He's learning two Indigenous languages. And he's a healer — that’s an important responsibility inherited from his ancestors. Dujuan’s story is told in a new documentary made in collaboration with his family in Australia. Here he is in a scene from that doc, speaking one evening as he sat by a fire and watched fireworks.

SOUNDCLIP

DUJUAN HOOSAN: I was born an Aboriginal kid. That means that I had a memory — a memory about Aboriginals. I just felt something — a memory. History, in my blood, it runs.

JD: Dujuan Hoosan is the subject of a documentary called "In My Blood It Runs." Dujuan's family can see his determination and his intelligence. School, however, is another story. There, he's mostly met with indifference, failure, and rejection. That’s a story that echoes the experiences of many Indigenous people here in Canada. And here to talk about the movie are Dujuan Hoosan; his mother, Megan Hoosan; his father, James Mawson; and the film's director, Maya Newell. They joined Carol in the "As It Happens" studio.

CO: Well, a big welcome to the “As It Happens” studio to this crowd. We have Dujuan. Hello, Dujuan.

DH: Hello.

CO: And we have your mom; Megan is here.

MEGAN HOOSAN: Hello.

CO: And your dad, Jim.

JAMES MAWSON: Hello.

CO: And the filmmaker, Maya.

MAYA NEWELL: Hi, nice to be here.

CO: Well, great to have you all here. And what's interesting about this film is that though Maya is I guess the sort of initiator, you're collaborating. This is everyone is part of the direction — all of you in the family. And that's really important to this documentary. And so I am going to ask you Maya, first of all, why you wanted to make this documentary?

MN: Sure. So over the last 10 years or so, I've been traveling to Alice Springs, which is where the film is set, which is right in the middle of the desert in Australia, working for an organization. And over those years, I had such a privileged opportunity to sit with Aboriginal elders as they were teaching their kids songlines, and going out on country. And they’re kids that speak maybe two, three, or four Aboriginal languages. And you know healers are so confident. And then they were going into the Western school system there, and they were being told they were failures, or treated as failures at school. And this felt like this was such an injustice in a way. And it's not surprising because kids are measured by Western values, and only taught in English, which is how I understand it's quite similar in Canada. And I suppose this film grew out of those relationships over those many years. And I just met Dujuan, and he's the most witty, intelligent you know funny young kid. And I was like I think he has some lessons for Australia and for the world.

CO: You really lucked out meeting Dujuan. I have to say, Dujuan, you are such a good voice — a good representative — of what Maya was trying to do in this documentary. But I have to ask what did you want people to know about your life?

DH: I want Aboriginal people to be strong. And not be treated the way we used to be treated.

CO: Megan… this is your mum Megan here, why did you want to take part in this?

MH: To show that parents do love their kids. And they are strong for them. Because we have family welfare that is take people just go and get kids off their mothers so they think that we're not strong enough to love our children, look after them, care for them.

CO: A lot of kids get taken away from their parents — same here. This is a long history in Canada of the same thing — of Indigenous people. We use the word Indigenous; you use the word Aboriginal. But people having their kids taken from them. Did you feel sometimes you fear that your kids would be taken from you?

MH: Yeah, I had them come to me. It's started at school. Dujuan was doing just what kids do, you know mocking and all that. So they didn't inform me at first. They went and just put in a phone call to the welfare department. They just walked up to my house and said oh, we got a phone call saying Dujuan was doing I don't know what they said. But yeah, they should have come and speak to me first, the schoolteachers.

CO: I haven't asked you yet, Jim, why did you take part? You’re Dujuan’s dad, why did you agree to be part of this documentary?

JM: I was surprised at the time because they said they were sending Dujuan up to me. And I didn't know he had Maya following him around with a camera. So I was sort of shocked when she did come up.

CO: We'll get to this because it's closer to the end when Dujuan goes to live with you in your homeland. But I want to ask about homeland. Because that's a really, really important part of this documentary. And you're living in this town called Alice Springs, and a couple of times in this film we get to go to your homeland. What's special about that place, Dujuan.

DH: We had families stay there a long time ago. Some of them passed away there, and passed their gift onto their youngest.

CO: You learn that a very special gift was passed on to you. Can you tell us about that?

DH: My grandfather was a witchdoctor, and passed away on that night. And then a couple of days later, my grandmother told me that my grandfather passed me his power for healing.

CO: What does it mean to you that you have these healing powers?

DH: I have to heal my family for whenever they have sores, or feel cramps somewhere.

CO: Everyone in the family at one time or another asks you to help heal them, heal their pains.

DH: Yup, and some of my grandmothers still have it.

CO: Have the power?

DH: Yeah.

CO: They teach you how to use it, don't they? When you're out in the bush with them — when you go to your homeland — you have great teachers there.

DH: Yeah.

CO: And Megan, what does it mean for you to be the mom of somebody who has these powers?

MH: I’m Proud, but he needs to use his powers on his family to heal them. He needs to keep it in him. If we don't have family, we don't have nothing. Our family is the most important thing for us.

CO: And you have to take care of each other?

MH: Take care of each other, love each other.

CO: Is that hard to do?

MH: Sometimes.

CO: When is it hard to take care of Dujuan?

HM: At his worst, when he was running away into the streets with other kids. That was very hard. I couldn't find him. So I had to ask family members that hang around in the streets. They’d go Dujuan’s over there. Dujuan, hurry up, get in the car, we’re going. I don’t want you to stay in town. It's a bad place.

CO: There are lots of scenes of you driving around looking for Dujuan.

HM: Yes. We was looking everywhere for him. Didn't want you to stay in the streets, hanging around with the wrong kids.

CO: Why did you run away so much, Dujuan?

DH: Sometimes my cousins and brothers don't like to hang around with me. And then I went for a walk into the town, and then found some boys that were walking around, and then I started following them.

CO: The danger for you — among many dangers — but one of them was that the police often picked up kids like you on the street, right? Were you afraid of that?

DH: Sometimes.

CO: Megan, what was your greatest of worry when he was out on the street?

MH: My worries were breaking in, stealing cars because that was my worry because the kids he was with — hanging with — they were always doing that.

CO: But Megan, the thing is that you know that, and you said a number of places, and your mom says, how important it is to have your culture, your identity, to be Aboriginal, to have homeland. All that is absolutely important, but at the same time, you wanted Dujuan to have a Western education, to be part of the regular school system, to live in… well, to live in Alice Springs, within a white culture. Why did you want that?

MH: Now, you need your like Western education for the future to get you know jobs for Dujuan and Colin.

CO: This is your other son?

MH: Colin is my other son, yeah — my elder son.

CO: But they didn't do very well in that school?

MH: They didn't do… yeah.

CO: Why do you think they didn't do well?

MH: Because I think the school didn’t do well for them.

CO: How did the school let him down?

MH: By expelling him from school because…

[crosstalk]

CO: He didn't fit in.

MH: Yeah, he didn't fit in.

CO: You're listening to a feature interview with the makers of an Australian documentary called “In My Blood It Runs.” And I'm speaking with the boy whose story it tells, Dujuan Hoosan, along with his parents, and the director of the film. There's some other clips I want to play from the documentary that might explain some of what you're saying. And this is there is a day when your teacher, Dujuan is teaching class about Captain Cook, who is a figure in Australian history. And here's her describing Captain cooking class. We're going to listen to that clip.

SOUNDCLIP

TEACHER: Listen carefully. This one isn't a story. This is information or non-fiction. It's fact. “The Australia Book,” it's about the history of our country. At Botany Bay, Cook landed for the first time in the new country. Then, he sailed up the coast, mapping as he went. He was nearly wrapped on the coral on the Barrier Reef. And only because he was a great sailor, did he manage to save his ship. On an island of Cape York, He raised that English flag. And he climbed for the English country the whole of this new land.

CO: Okay, this is your land, right? She is describing your land. She's describing how Captain Cook claimed for England all of Australia. How did you feel when she was teaching that lesson?

DH: I felt scared because I was thinking about how white people would wipe out half of Australia with their cities and stuff.

CO: If you could talk to the teacher now, what would you say?

DH: Why Captain Cook come on Australia?

CO: The story is — the history is — as she's describes it the history of Australia, which is that this Englishman came to Australia and claimed it for England — claimed the land that your ancestors came from.

DH: I think this story was a lie.

CO: Megan, I think you want to say something about Captain Cook. What is it?

MH: He just came to Australia thinking he owned it.

JM: Captain Cook came and he wiped half of our race out, and took Aboriginals in as slaves.

MH: And they got tortured. Australian people think it's okay for them to celebrate that Aboriginals got tortured, crude, slavery and all that.

CO: And lost your land.

MH: lost land because of this white man, Captain Cook.

CO: There's another clip that we want to play that's also another lesson, and another day in school, Dujuan. And this is a different teacher, and she's talking about a book you're learning about spirits. I want to play that clip.

SOUNDCLIP

TEACHER: For a long time, there was nothing. Then, in the mind of the Spirit of Life, a Dreaming began. In the empty darkness, there was a Dreaming of fire. And the colour of fire burned brightly in the mind of the Great Spirit. So they're actually saying is a spirit. I'm not exactly sure how they do it. But there's a spirit somewhere. And in that spirit, they have the spirit of fire.

DH: The spirit is real!

TEACHER: Okay, let's see what happens.

CO: Okay, this teacher is saying that there was a spirit on the land, but it's a story, it's made up. And you say to her, Dujuan, you say but it's true. The spirit is real. Do you remember that moment when you tried to tell the teacher that there really was a spirit in the land?

CO: Yeah. She wouldn't listen. ‘Cause every time we tried to talk, she says don’t interrupt the book.

CO If you could tell her, if she had answered you and let you speak, what would you have told her about the spirit you know is there?

DH: The spirit is somewhere in Australia, but now we can’t find it.

CO: What's happened to it?

DH: It's in a sacred site where nobody doesn't go. They go back to the lands.

CO: When you're in your homeland, when you're in the bush, do you feel the spirit there?

DH: Sometimes.

CO: Maya, just that in the documentary there are a number of times you can hear you have clips from a news investigation that's going on at the time into the numbers of Aboriginal kids in detention — in juvenile detention — and how they're being treated. What was that backdrop? What was the story that was being revealed while you were making this documentary?

MN: So around when we started to film with Dujuan, there was a massive revelation on a current affairs program, which revealed clips of kids being tortured in the Don Dale Youth Detention Centre. And this is horrific treatment of children that they allow in Australia. We lock up kids who are 10 years old, which is Dujuan’s age in this film. Most Western countries that age of criminality is 14 or 16. And these were horrendous images, and it shocked the whole nation. And in Alice Springs, kids and families were watching that footage on their TV, and that was their family members in there. So it was really full on to be making a film about a child who was tracking towards you know that juvenile justice system while we are seeing those torturous images. So the prime minister called the Royal Commission investigation into those allegations. And that Royal Commission was happening over the course of us making the film. So there were people protesting all around the country, people giving submissions, young kids being called to give evidence. It was a big moment in Australia.

CO: And what you revealed in the town you lived in — in Alice Springs — 100 per cent of the kids in juvenile detention were Aboriginal. It’s a shocking number.

MH: Shocking all right.

CO: What worries did you have for your sons, given how many kids were being arrested and detained in that place. Were you worried about them, Megan?

MH: Yes, I was worried that they might end up in Don Dale as well.

CO: Did you worry yourself, Dujuan? Were you worried that you might end up there? I saw you watching some of the documentary. It must have been really shocking for you

DH: Yes. Once when I ran away from school, we went into town. Some policemen were chasing us, and they caught us. And then one of the boys asked them if they were taking us to jail? And they said maybe.

CO: And they put you in a paddy wagon, didn't they? Were you scared?

DH: Yes. Some of the paddy wagons take kids home from being on the streets. And some of the boys who were sitting down with us got taken away from their families.

CO: You know kids who got taken away from their families?

DH: Yes.

CO: Megan, how did you come to decide that Dujuan go and live with his dad?

MH: Because he just kept doing what he wanted to do, and he didn't know that he was making his mother worried me. But only way we had to get him out of town was send him to his father.

CO: Jim, I'm going to ask you as the dad, what did you think you could do for Dujuan that his mum couldn't do for him?

JM: Well, as Dujuan’s father, I'd like to be his role model in his teen years. So hopefully, pick a different road than the one he was on in Alice.

CO: And you live on the land, don't you, Jim?

JM: Yes. So there's not many people there. We mostly just live off the land, and we've got country that we stay on most of the time.

CO: Dujuan, when you're there, when you go to live with your dad, you seem different. You seem happier. Were you happier when that happened? You seem more free.

DH: Yes. Sometimes we like to go out fishing with Dad in the boat, and go out in the sea.

CO: Do you think you'll be okay now?

DH: Yes.

CO: When you're in the bush, you start having dreams about what you want to do, what you think you can change. What do you hope to do? What do you hope to change?

DH: Aboriginal rights and laws about the juvenile centres locking up 10-year-olds, and stealing kids from their mums and dads.

CO: You want to grow up and change things, change the system?

DH: Yes.

CO: Do you think you'll do that?

DH: Maybe.

CO: I think you will.

MN: In the movie, Dujuan says that he wants to speak to the prime minister. So we're actually rolling out a social impact campaign when we release this film, and I'm pretty sure we're gonna get him a meeting with the prime minister.

CO: What would you say to the prime minister if you did meet with him?

DH: Could you change the laws? Every day, kids get taken away from their families. And during the night, they cry for their families.

CO: At the very end of the film, when the credits are rolling, you have some things you wrote, which is that you, Maya, say all the thank yous you usually see there. And you think this family for letting you make the documentary, but do you thank Dujuan for… maybe you describe. What do you thank him for?

MN: Over the course of making this film, I've learnt so much from Dujuan. I've learnt about Aboriginal culture and language, and also, I've admired his courage to tell and share his story. It takes a lot, especially in our context in Australia, to tell the truth about what it's like to grow up as a kid under many oppressive laws in Australia. So I wanted to thank him for his friendship, and for his courage to share his story.

DH: I want kids and Aboriginal people to have hope and strength from my film.

CO: And do you think they will? Do you think that we've learned something from you?

DH: Yes.

CO: I think you're right. We sure did. Dujuan, I want to thank you so much for being part of this film, and for talking to me.

DH: I thank you too for bringing me into Toronto.

CO: All right. And Megan, thank you. Jim, thank you. And Maya, thank you for making this documentary.

MN: Thank you.

MH: Thank you.

JD: Maya Newell made the documentary "In My Blood It Runs" in collaboration with Dujuan Hoosan and his parents, Megan Hoosan and James Mawson. They were in the "As It Happens" studio. The movie is screening at the Hot Docs festival in Toronto beginning tomorrow night. You can find more on Dujuan Hoosan and the film on our website: www.cbc.ca/aih. And, from the end credits of the film, here is Dujuan singing his own version of "You're Welcome" from the Moana soundtrack.

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Dujuan singing “You’re Welcome”]

JD: That’s Dujuan Hoosan, with his version of “You’re Welcome” from the movie Moana.

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April 25, 2019 episode transcript

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