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The AIH Transcript for April 16, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Cross examination. The first reporter to enter Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris after yesterday's fire is staggered to see the crucifix on the altar still standing in the ruins.

JD: They'd trade their losses for this win. Maryland's Capital Gazette receives a special Pulitzer award for covering the attack on its own newsroom which killed five people.

CO: Lock down and out. A high school in Thunder Bay, Ontario, was empty of students again today after the 14th anonymous threats in just nine weeks.

JD: An anti-anti symbolic gesture. Two solitudes in a single province -- as Montreal City Council votes unanimously to declare its opposition to Quebec's religious symbols ban.

CO: We shouldn't make heads or tails of it. A new dollar coin will celebrate 50 years since Canada partially decriminalized homosexuality -- but historians say that glosses over the truth about the struggle for gay rights.

JD: And an embarrassment of breeches. A University of Illinois student in shorts realizes his outfit could get him kicked out of class -- when a stranger gives him the greatest gift of all: his pants. As It Happens. The Tuesday Edition. Radio that guesses he saw those legs and had a knee non-jerk reaction.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: First reporter inside Notre-Dame finds hope in 'striking image' of cathedral's cross

Notre-Dame: Reporter

Guest: Robert Hardman

JD: Today, Emmanuel Macron told French citizens he feels their pain -- but he also shares their hope. The French president has vowed to do whatever it takes to rebuild the Notre-Dame Cathedral after yesterday's devastating fire. Here's what he said in a public address earlier with English translation.

SOUNDCLIP

EMMANUEL MACRON: The fire in Notre-Dame reminds us that our history never stops -- never. All the material and spiritual assets of France are fragile -- and we should never forget that. Let us remember the last couple of hours of last night and the early morning today. Each and every person sacrificed, gave what he had. The firefighters had fought with heroism. The police and the security forces simply were there as always -- their presence reassure. The international community as well. The photographers had first shown the photos of this devastation. And each and everybody has given what they could. And what I want to say this evening is that we are people of builders. What we have to do now is a great deal and we will act and we will succeed. Long live the republic and long live France.

JD: French President Emmanuel Macron speaking earlier today. There were fears last night that the cathedral's priceless stained glass sculptures and relics would be lost forever. This morning, however, there was cause for optimism. Robert Hardman who was the first journalist to see the interior of the Notre-Dame after the fire had gone out. We reached Robert Hardman in Paris.

CO: Robert when we were covering this story last night, the mood in Paris was bleak. Is that still the case?

ROBERT HARDMAN: No. The mood has palpably changed. Last night, as you say, there was a feeling of utter dejection -- people were very distressed, they were seriously contemplating the loss of the entire cathedral. In the early hours of this morning it was clear that the towers were still standing -- the outer structure was still in one piece. And now, today, the sense is more one of great sadness for the much loved national treasure -- it's scarred and very badly damaged. But also there is a sense of almost salvation. So the mood is reflective but it's a lot less funereal than it was the early hours of late yesterday evening.

CO: Very early this morning -- I guess in the middle of the night -- you were able to get inside the cathedral with a group. What did you see when you got there?

RH: Well I managed to get through a couple of police cordons -- and was right in front of the cathedral. I just noticed a delegation of rather important looking people and fire chiefs heading to the west so I thought I'd tag along -- to see if I could talk to them, and no one was really in the mood to say anything. So we all just walked in. Inside I found flames still flickering overhead, further down the aisle. It was clear the fire was -- well, hopefully -- under control but it was still very much raging in parts. The floor was slightly [inaudible] -- we were standing right next to the water -- so it was a deplorable smell. And there was water cascading through holes in the roof -- all the fire engines outside pumping pressure hoses through the void. So it was a scene of controlled chaos. And then suddenly in the middle of it all, the firemen's torches which were flipping around looking for pockets of fire suddenly picked up this extraordinary image at the far end -- that there was a cross. The main gold cross, it's called, was still in place upright above the altar. It was a very striking image I have to say.

CO: People were marking that -- I guess -- that there was a sense that there was something miraculous about the fact that this cross had survived and that you could see it suddenly in the midst of all this burned out ruin.

RH: Yes it's been a recurring theme today. Very interesting one. Here we are in an avowedly secular nation where religion and the state are kept very-well apart. And yet a lot of people have said to me that they have never known so much overt talk about religion, about faith, and theology. On TV -- the sight of people praying in the streets, people talking about the need to get down on their knees, it's not terribly French actually. But I think the fact that this extraordinary emblematic part of the French identity came so close to being destroyed -- and it's still here, and everybody is united in the sense that something quite remarkable has happened here and it's something that everyone should be grateful for.

CO: Another one of those symbolic moments was that the chaplain of the Paris Fire Brigade -- a well-known man -- was able to get in and establish -- I understand -- a human chain where they could get the treasures that were in the church out past. Can you tell us what you learned about that?

RH: Well it's already become one of the great stories of the moment. This human chain of firefighters led by a priest in the fire brigade -- forming this line of sort of pass the parcel just to get this stuff out -- get whatever could be lifted, whatever was portable, just get it out as quickly as possible. Most of it now has been moved to the eminently safe hands of the Louvre Gallery and its curators. But last night it was just a case of 'let's get it done.' Not just because we've got to get it out before the flames get anywhere near it -- but because there are millions of gallons of water coming in through the roof. That was a particularly fine example of resourcefulness. And I did find it very moving actually in the early hours of this morning -- it was about 2 or 3 o'clock. The first members of the fire brigade were coming off duty and going back across the bridge. And the crowd burst into spontaneous applause.

CO: One of the holy relics that were inside the church that were part of this human chain I understand was a crown of thorns that was believed to have been the actual crown of thorns on the head of Jesus. Were there other things of that nature that were able to be secured?

RH: Yes. So the crown of thorns was one of the key relics that was stored inside the cathedral so to guard the congregation as it were -- keep it safe. We just don't know at the moment -- we are waiting for a full report by the curators of the Louvre to find out what has actually survived and what sort of state it's in.

CO: Last night when we were covering it -- it seemed as though for sure the stained glass windows, at least three of the rose windows, were lost. But I guess that's not the case. In the light of day, you can see them intact. Is that right?

RH: That's right. Certainly on the western facade -- the two great towers that really are the most recognizable aspects of Notre-Dame -- those kinds of glass appear to be intact. Now what state they are in, we don't know. But it's interesting that there has been a fire crane -- paying very close attention to those [inaudible] all day -- moving around in forensically small detail checking every bit because of those windows overlook the main entrance. But it does seem that some of the stained glass -- if not most of the stained glass -- is actually intact. And that is a sort of -- obviously -- relief all around.

CO: Lots of things to lift the spirits then.

RH: Absolutely. And you know what -- this is a building that always lifts spirits. Even on a day like today -- when it's raining, even when it's in a terrible state -- if you stand there and you look at it -- just felt something in the soul of it -- which is why 13 million people every year come and look around it. And I am sure will continue to do so.

CO: Robert thank you so much.

RH: Thank you very much.

JD: Robert Hardman is a Daily Mail reporter in Paris. And you can see a photograph that he took inside the cathedral on our website: cbc.ca/aih. And later on in the program we will hear from a man who is fundraising for the renovations at Notre-Dame -- get his reaction to the more than 900 million Canadian dollars raised to rebuild.

[Music]

Thunder Bay Threats

Guest: Cheri Lappage

JD: When the bell rang this afternoon at Hammarskjold High School -- students did not rush out of class because there were no students there at all. The Thunder Bay school was closed after police received an anonymous threat concerning it. Which is alarming, but sadly no longer unusual because over the past nine weeks the school has received 14 anonymous threats. Cheri Lappage chairs the school council at Hammarskjold High, where her two kids go to school. We reached Ms. Lappage in Thunder Bay.

CO: Cheri first of all what kind of a toll is this taking on you and your kids -- all these threats?

CHERI LAPPAGE: It's exhausting, frustrating. It's a roller coaster of emotions every day wondering if there will be school, if the kids will be able to get through a day -- and it really is just becoming this ongoing nightmare for everyone involved.

CO: Is it just because the school is canceled or is it the fact that the school is being threatened with violence that's creating -- I guess some kids are even having panic attacks?

CL: It's definitely a mix of both. Every child in this school was born after Columbine. Every parent is parenting in a world where school isn't safe anymore. And so it's a mix of frustration of the disruption to the school year mixed with a real underlying fear that there is someone that does seem to want to either be enacting terror or possibly real harm to our school and our staff and our children.

CO: But what have the authorities in Thunder Bay actually told you about what the threats are to your high school?

CL: All of the threats are coming in through the anonymous Crime Stoppers tip line. And they are a mix of tips being submitted suggesting explosives have been placed in this school, that there are guns in this school, that there is a student coming to this school with a weapon. So they seem to always be either school shooting related or explosive device related.

CO: Do you know if anything has ever been found?

CL: So the police have told us that not one time have they substantiated a threat or found anything on the school premises. So at least that alleviates a bit of concern to us that perhaps this is a person that is just getting joy out of putting us through this chaotic process again and again.

CO: It's been 14 times now where there has been a full or partial closure -- what happens?

CL: So when it's a closure, most of these threats seem to be coming in early enough in the morning that the school is able to communicate to parents and students right away. Sometimes it's been while our children are on the bus on the way to school -- and a few times it's been when they've actually got to school and have been told that the buses will be turning around and taking them home.

CO: And all of this over the past nine weeks.

CL: It seems to be escalating. There were a few in February, there were a few in March, and out of the last 8 school days our students have been able to go to school once.

CO: Is it possible or is it even a consideration that may be since nothing has been found that if they can secure the school -- if they can make sure everything is okay -- is there's no way that they can help the kids get back into their school?

CL: Carol you're asking the exact same question that most of the parents are asking right now. And the answer we're getting from the board is that they would rather take a hundred angry parent phone calls than have to call one parent and tell them that their child is never coming home. And while we understand that -- there has to be some other solution to ensure that these children don't lose any more school. And so we're asking the board to consider an alternate plan. I know they are talking to police but they consider student and staff safety to be number one.

CO: But what have they done to mitigate the threat?

CL: There's very little that can be done at the moment. They are locking the school at all times when it's not in use. There are only two doors that can be used. And there are off duty police officers now stationed in the school every day. That's really all they can do until the police are able to find this person.

CO: And so these anonymous threats are going to Crime Stoppers -- do they have an obligation to let others know where this is coming from?

CL: So that's been a bit of a conundrum through this whole process. The issue is protecting the anonymity of that anonymous tip source. But there are a lot of disclaimers on many local Crime Stoppers sites talking about the fact that if you are using this service to an act, threat, or create a crime that you are not subject to privilege. So everyone is really kind of trying to figure out where the problem is and nobody really seems to be giving any concrete answers at the moment.

CO: How great a threat do you think is being posed to the kids at the school?

CL: I think it's a really hard question to answer. Most of us believe that this person is not actually going to harm the school. But you always have that in the back of your mind. And talking to my children you know when they go to school they do think about that. And the first time this happened, students and teachers were locked in their classroom for more than three hours while the school was swept with the SWAT team coming through. They couldn't leave the classroom. They couldn't go to the bathroom. It was a very scary experience for them. My daughter was actually hiding the food in her backpack, worried that they may be there for a long time and she would have to have something to share later.

CO: Oh that's so sad.

CL: It really is. I mean it's such a scary experience when they've all grown up seeing those images of this played out. It can't help but feel real regardless of how serious this threat might be.

CO: Cheri I hope all this comes to pass and that the kids can start going to school and feeling that they're safe and I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

CL: Thank you so much Carol.

JD: Cheri Lappage is the chair of the school council at Hammarskjold High School in Thunder Bay -- that is where we reached her. Today, Hammarskjold High School was closed after it received its 14th anonymous threat in nine weeks.

[Music]

Justin Trudeau

JD: The PM didn't take much time today to discuss the reopening of an investigation into his 2017 vacation on the private island of the Aga Khan. This morning, a federal court judge ordered Canada's Lobbying Commissioner to take another look at whether the billionaire's getaway offer amounted to unregistered lobbying. That follows an earlier decision by the Ethics Commissioner that for his part the Prime Minister broke the ethics rules by accepting. Mr. Trudeau was asked about the court decision during a Q & A with reporters down in Kitchener, Ontario -- but he was much more keen to talk about his provincial critics.

SOUNDCLIP

PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU: We trust in the processes in place and respect the work that the court and the lobbying commissioner will do.

REPORTER: In Alberta it's looking increasingly likely that Jason Kenney is going to win the election. Are you concerned about the future of your climate plan?

PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU: I will -- as always -- work with whomever a province chooses to elect as their premier. I think it's important that we always try to understand that regardless of the order of government you're talking about we're all serving the same citizens. And Alberta has been through a number of difficult years with the price of oil, with global investments -- and that's why we've done a significant job of investing in Alberta and supporting Albertans through this difficult time. And as we know as Canadians, Alberta has supported Canada through some very tough times when their economy was booming. And when they face difficult times, all of Canada will be there for them. And that is going to continue. So I look forward to working with whomever wins the election. I will say, however, that when we talk about a plan for jobs, a plan for growth, a plan for the economy, it is impossible in the 21st century to have a plan for the economy without having a plan for the environment. It just can't happen. We know that the only way to build a strong economy for the future is to think about environmental impacts, and invest in green technologies, and invest in cleaner solutions, invest in the kinds of economic opportunities that are coming up with a changing world. While at the same time we need to make sure we are fighting climate change to ensure that we have opportunities and prosperity in the coming generations. So we have chosen to put a price on pollution -- right across the country. And there are Conservative politicians who are using tax payer money to fight a price on pollution in court. They are using your dollars to try and make pollution free again -- which makes no sense.

JD: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau answering questions from reporters in Kitchener, Ontario, this morning.

[Music]

Shorts Guys

Guests: Jake Wolf & Sam Brown

JD: Around North America, across this great continent, we are seeing the first tentative harbingers of spring: robins, crocuses -- and that first guy who wears shorts. Well last week on the campus of the University of Illinois, that guy was Jake Wolf -- a student who just threw on a pair of shorts early one morning. But his giddiness was short lived when he arrived at his chemistry lab which has a no-shorts policy. Mr. Wolf realized he had made an error in judgment -- so he had a choice: miss the class and see his grade drop or fashion a solution fast. We reached Jake Wolf in Champaign, Illinois.

CO: Jake take us back to last Tuesday -- just how nice was it that day?

JAKE WOLF: It was so nice. It was like 70s (Fahrenheit). It was great weather for shorts.

CO: And so you had to break out in the shorts. When did you realize you'd made a serious mistake?

JW: At 7:58 -- two minutes before my class that's when I realized.

CO: What would be the consequences of going to that class with shorts?

JW: I would be thrown out of lab which basically guarantees a drop in the letter grade.

CO: And why can't you wear shorts in chemistry?

JW: It's more of a liability -- like if you spill a hazardous chemical on your leg, it could be dangerous so that's why you can't go in with it.

CO: I get it. That makes sense to me. So the class begins at 8:00 -- you are two minutes in, and you're wearing the wrong clothes, you're going to lose a whole grade. Could you go home?

JW: No. I could not go home. In my panicked state I thought maybe I can make it home --changing it back. But the latest you can swipe into class is 8:10. So you can be 10 minutes late and still make the lab, but there is no way I could run home in time. I thought I could that's why I started running but it would be actually impossible.

CO: Okay so when did you get an idea how you might turn this around?

JW: So I was about halfway home, and I looked at my watch and it was 8:04 -- so six minutes has already past. I had six minutes left, and I was only halfway home. So I thought I had to resort to something else. I was in last resort mode -- desperation mode. And that's when I saw Sam walking into -- I think it was the business school in pants. And it was just, "I haven't tried something insane today. Let's give it a go." So that's when I went up and asked him if I could borrow his pants.

CO: And we have Sam Brown on the phone. Hi Sam.

SAM BROWN: Hi. How are you?

CO: Okay. Now, did you know Jake? Had you ever seen him before?

SB: No I had not until he approached me. I had never met him or seen him around campus.

CO: And how did he approach you?

SB: So I was walking in the building and I heard someone behind me yelling, "Hey! Hey! Hey!" So I turned around and looked and I saw some guy running towards the door. He kind of just said like, "ah this is going to sound crazy but I'm running late to my lab -- I'm going to need to borrow your pants." [Laughter] And I was pretty shocked. Nobody's ever come up to me and asked if they could use my pants, especially not a stranger.

CO: Did you wonder about this dude? Did you buy this story?

SB: I mean I could understand the story but it was kind of in a short amount of time. I didn't really have time to think whether this was a good idea or not. So that's kind of when I decided.

CO: What kind of pants were you wearing?

SB: I was wearing black sweat pants.

CO: Okay. Back to you Jake. So what did you guys do?

JW: So we both ran into the business school. I of course didn't know where the bathrooms are. So I was like, "where's the bathroom?" He's like, "oh it's over to your left." And we both rushed in and we switched pants. And I quickly got his number because I wanted to give his pants back. And I didn't even have enough time to like ask for his name. I just saved (number) it in my phone as "Pants." And then I ran to lab. That's what happened.

CO: So they fit? Well they are sweatpants so they're elastic waist, right, so they fit.

JW: Yeah they fit beautifully. [Laughter]

CO: And Sam, how about the shorts? Did they fit you?

SB: Yeah they fit perfectly fine as well.

CO: So then you guys came out wearing each other's clothes. What did you think Sam -- did you think you'd ever see your pants again?

SB: He told me he was going to text me so I believed me. He seemed pretty panicked though. But I was like all right. So I just walked up stairs to class and thought that that was probably one of the crazier things I've done.

CO: When did you connect again with Jake?

SB: So it was around 11:00 when I walked back downstairs and I text him. And he was standing by the bathroom again and he said he was so thankful and that I was a life saver for him -- then we just went back in the bathroom and swap pants.

CO: And Jake how grateful were you?

JW: I was so grateful. Absolutely ecstatic. I actually put 20 bucks in his pants because Sam was such a nice kid for doing that that I knew if I handed him 20 bucks he would definitely say, no no, keep it. So I actually slipped it in his sweatpants and I texted him later that it was in his sweatpants.

CO: And now would you have done the same thing if somebody -- Jake -- if somebody had asked you for your pants -- a stranger?

JW: I mean it depends the vibe that the person would give me. But I feel like if somebody came up to me and asked me like, "dude I need your pants." Like I would definitely think no before I thought yes.

CO: And when you told people about this, how did they respond?

JW: Well I texted my one friend and he thought it was absolutely hilarious. And then I immediately called my mom and she was crying laughing. And then that's when my friend thought it so funny that he tweeted out and the whole thing went viral and blew up.

CO: And so you two are doing interviews -- you're kind of joined at the hip now, aren't you? In so many ways.

JW: Yeah I'd say so.

CO: Jake and Sam it's a great story and I really appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you both.

JW: Thank you for having me.

SB: Thank you.

JD: Sam Brown is a student at the University of Illinois -- and last week he lent his pants to a shorts wearing stranger -- Jake Wolf -- who we also had on the line, so that he would be properly dressed for his chem lab. We reached them both in Champagne, Illinois. And we do have more on this story including some photographs of the clothes swapping lads on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Part 2: 'Sombre moment' as Capital Gazette gets Pulitzer citation for covering shooting in its own newsroom

Pulitzer: Capital Gazette

Guest: Chase Cook

JD: Every American journalist dreams of winning a Pulitzer. But the staff of Maryland's Capital Gazette must wish that they had never been in a position to win one in the first place. Yesterday, the paper was awarded a Pulitzer Prize citation, and 100-thousand dollars for its coverage of the mass shooting at its own offices last June in which five employees were killed. After the attack, reporters and editors worked around the clock to put out a paper the very next day. Chase Cook is one of the reporters who was responsible for that coverage. We reached him at the Capital Gazette office in Annapolis, Maryland.

CO: Chase I imagine that a nod from the Pulitzer Prize is a time of celebration normally, but this must be bittersweet.

CHASE COOK: It definitely is. Yes.

CO: How are people reacting in the newsroom?

CC: Yesterday was a lot of surprise. You know subdued excitement and some you know really sad reflections on the 10 months that's taken to get where we are now.

CO: I just want to read the citation from the Pulitzer committee, 'to honour the journalists, staff, and editorial board of the Capital Gazette for their courageous response to the largest killing of journalists in U.S. history in their newsroom on June 28th, 2018. And for demonstrating unflagging commitment to covering the news and serving their community at a time of unspeakable grief.'

CC: Like I said it means a lot to me to be honoured that way. You know when it was happening a lot of it really felt like you're showing up to do your job and you're dealing personally with the loss but knowing that you know the people who were killed would want you to be there or they would be there if it was you who had died. And so we were really just doing our best to honour them and we were doing our best to show our readers that you know something like this is not going to stop us from doing our job.

CO: You and the other reporters began covering the shooting as it happened from the newsroom and while returning from the field -- and you put the paper out, right, the next edition was out only hours after the shooting. What do you remember of that day yourself? You were one of those reporters.

CC: I was. I mean I was at home. Rob Hiaasen who was killed in the shooting gave me the day off after I worked the primary for I think 16 or 17 hours. And that Thursday at about 2:30 I was at home, I was playing a video game -- trying to relax -- when I got a phone call about you know there was a shooting at the newsroom. And I thought it was confused -- maybe it was a shooting nearby or you know across the street or something. And it turned out to not be the case. And I was learning as I went. When I first heard the news I honestly didn't know how to react. I threw on my work clothes and drove into work. And as I was driving I was getting phone calls from people making sure I was okay and I was getting phone calls about who had been killed or who we think might have been killed and it was incredibly hectic. And I was trying not to crash my car -- I was driving -- because I was crying. And you know I was just really trying to get there to do my best to support them in whatever way I could. And it turned out that I you know wrote the front page story and then we put everybody's byline on there kind of you know as a show of solidarity and you know proof that a lot of people contributed whether it was through confirming they were okay, telling us what happened in the room when it happened, or you know seeking out sources and contributing in some way.

CO: At the same time that you were doing all that -- knowing that five of your colleagues including the man you mentioned, Rob Hiaasen, was dead.

CC: You still want to pick up the phone and call them. I have a reminder in my Outlook -- my e-mail -- to send Rob a slug at 2:15. And I haven't deleted it. And you know it's I think something I'll carry with me for the rest of my life. I won't forget.

CO: How did the decision get made that you were going to immediately put out the next edition of the paper?

CC: You know right after the shooting my editor Rick Hutzell called and said, just to start working on copy -- like we were going to put something on the website for sure. You know I learned a couple hours later that there was no plans to not have a paper edition -- to not have a print edition. And so I just double confirmed that that's what we were doing and I've supported it. And if the decision had been otherwise I would have been you know definitely opposed to not having a print edition.

CO: How often do you think about that day?

CC: Every day. It's impossible not to. Every moment, every time, I step in this newsroom -- it is a reminder about what happened. I mean I was at a funeral today for the Maryland Speaker of the House -- he's the longest serving speaker, very nice guy, he was close to the paper, he would come in and glad-hand a little bit, and drop off some documents he wanted the reporters to look into and talk sports with the sports guys -- and you know sitting at the funeral covering it for a story I just remember being at Gerald's funeral or John's or Wendi's or Rebecca's or Rob's. And you know none of us can escape it in any way -- even the people who weren't in the building.

CO: The people who were killed -- one of them was the sales assistant, Rebecca Smith, who was young. But the others were in their late 50s or 60s. So what did you lose -- not just the people -- but what did you lose in the way of the knowledge, the collective wisdom of those people in your newsroom?\

CC: I mean that's devastating as well. I mean John McNamara knew more about Maryland sports than I think anybody I knew. He could give you details and statistics and stats about stuff that would totally you know if he was working with a sportswriter would totally influence and improve their work naturally. Rob was the same way. So was Wendi and Gerald. I mean the way that Gerald knew his way around words -- he would send me e-mails going, "hey you meant to say -- you know when you spell 'the tenants' in this initial copy you meant to say this and this." And he was so helpful as a writing coach when you would make dumb mistake or forget something. Rob would encourage you to do interesting or different things. You know he had that famous column where he went snow snorkeling which is just a silly column that he wrote about life in Maryland -- and you know losing that is...it's awful.

CO: I presume those people are going to be with you when you pick up this citation.

CC: I mean I think it would mean a lot to them to be a part of it. You know you wonder sometimes about you know trading -- maybe I die and Rob lived or something like (so) that they could see this, this experience -- so that they can see what's happening afterward that you know there's some good that came out of something so bad. But I also think they might be disappointed that we didn't win the breaking news Pulitzer. You know there was a dedication to their profession that I bet you know if I were sitting down with John you know having a beer or talking about you know something -- that we would go to ourselves, "Why wasn't the reporting good enough to win that award?" And they would love the recognition but I think they would also be craving to do the next best thing.

CO: Chase it was great reporting and I commend you for it. Thank you.

CC: Thank you very much.

CO: Take care.

CC: You too.

JD: Chase Cook is a reporter at the Capital Gazette newspaper. We reached him in Annapolis, Maryland. And we have more on that story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Rawlson King

JD: It was his first time running for city council. So when Rawlson King won the by-election in Ottawa's Rideau-Rockcliffe ward last night he was thrilled. But his win was also historic. Mr. King -- a longtime community volunteer -- is Ottawa's first-ever black city councillor. Rawlson King spoke with CBC News last night.

SOUNDCLIP

RAWLSON KING: You know it's amazing especially since it went from conception to reality so quickly. I mean that's what's amazing about it. It was an idea that we had I guess late in the year when we heard that Tobi Nussbaum was resigning. And what was interesting was I didn't even know he had resigned or was announcing his resignation. People had sent me e-mails. They were immediately saying Rawlson you should run. And somebody from the black community said you will run in the e-mail -- that was it in the e-mail. So I had to give it some serious consideration. During Black History Month, I was attending many events. There was a national conference for black Canadians. You know I met a black city councillor from the city of Victoria, B.C. who was there -- who was encouraging me to run. It was amazing that so many people from the community said you should just run and so I seeded that to their demands. And we were successful.

JD: Rawlson King is Ottawa's first-ever black city councillor. He was speaking to CBC News last night after his historic win.

[Music]

Equality Loonie

Guest: Steven Maynard

JD: A new Canadian coin is meant to celebrate equality. But even before the new Loonie is officially unveiled next week, it is inspiring acrimony. The coin will feature two overlapping faces. It is imprinted with the dates 1969 and 2019. It is meant to commemorate 50 years since the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in Canada. Some however say that the date noted on the coin only celebrates a historical myth. Steven Maynard is a Canadian historian specializing in the history of sexuality. We reached him in Kingston, Ontario.

CO: Professor Maynard, what is your biggest problem with this new Loonie?

STEVEN MAYNARD: I guess my biggest problem is that it seems to be built primarily on the basis of a myth. And I'm a historian so I prefer my history to be based on facts and evidence.

CO: What is the myth?

SM: I think the myth is that it's commonly perceived that what happened in 1969 is that homosexuality was decriminalised in Canada. But the fact is of course that in 1969 no homosexual offences were actually removed from the Criminal Code. The offences of gross indecency and buggery remained on the books well after 1969.

CO: But it was passed into law. I mean this was something that Pierre Trudeau as Justice Minister said he wanted to do. He said the famous line, there is no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation. And in 1969 he followed through on that and decriminalised homosexuality in Canada -- becoming a historical moment. You don't see it as that.

SM: Not exactly no. Because what in fact happened in 1969 -- what Trudeau did -- was introduce a limited exception or exemption to the criminal code. So that's where we get the two consenting adults, 21 years of age or older, and in private. But any homosexual activity that fell beyond that fairly narrow exception, remained illegal.

CO: It has taken decades and will continue to take time to actually establish that equality that this Loonie is to celebrate. Doesn't it have to start somewhere -- and didn't it start somewhere -- isn't 1969 a date that at least in its kind of baby-step way was the initiation of that idea in the Canadian imagination?

SM: I think it's true that it's one way of seeing it in terms of the Canadian imagination. But I think I would also want to draw attention to what gets forgotten or what gets ignored if that's the perspective we take on 69. And one of the things that is ignored is that in the years after 1969 the police continued to use the laws -- that as I say remained on the books -- use those laws to arrest hundreds and hundreds of people on homosexual charges. So if we think about all of those people how is it that we understand that period after 69 that has decriminalization.

CO: I guess a coin can only be a symbol, right. So you can't put a lot of content into it. If there is to be a coin commemorating changes in Canada that recognize the rights of gay people, how would you do that?

SM: I think I would choose a different moment. You're right I think to put the accent on emphasizing the rights of gay people. I'm not sure that that's what commemorating 1969 does. What if for example we had a coin that commemorated August 1971 and that's the date of course of the famous "We Demand" demonstration -- the first public gay demonstration in Canada held on Parliament Hill and simultaneously in Vancouver. We think about what those people were doing in 1971 -- one of the main things was critiquing the limitations of Trudeau's reforms. So LGBTQ people understood in 1971 that there were limitations. They understood them because they lived them -- because their friends continued to be arrested. So if we were to commemorate that moment, we would be acknowledging 1969 but we would be doing so from the perspective of LGBTQ people in Canada.

CO: Would there have been 1971 -- would there have been those events had it not been for the changes to the criminal code in 1969?

SM: I think that that played a part of it. But if we want to actually do the history of LGBTQ activism in Canada that started long before 1969, right. This started in the 1950s and 60s. And so it builds up to this moment in 1971 when there can be this first public gay demonstration. And I think it's not a coincidence that one of the primary demands that was made during the "We Demand" protest was lodgement of the limitations of the Trudeau reforms and a demand that we go beyond them. And I think that's what needs to be commemorated not the federal government's current attempt to burnish its image as the guarantor of equality which I think is the word they're going to put on the coin.

CO: You think this is just kind of publicity stunt on the part of the present Liberal government?

SM: It's hard not to see it that way. You know at times I think this is Justin Trudeau finishing the work he imagines his father set out to do. That's one part of it. So it can either be you know the federal government, the Liberal Party, the Trudeau family -- but all of those to me sort of are the same -- it's to commemorate a moment that shines on them rather than on lesbian and gay people in Canada.

CO: Well perhaps at least we can acknowledge that it's good to have something besides birds and animals on the coins -- something that commemorates a moment of our history.

SM: I'll be using that coin when I return to the classroom in September to teach my course on the history of sexuality in Canada. But I'll be using it -- right -- as a way to point out both the limitations of what happened in 1969 and also some of the limitations that we're discussing right now in terms of commemorating that moment. So that I think is all well and good. But for me the question becomes more broadly outside of the classroom. How does a coin sort of prompt those kinds of discussions and debates? I'm not exactly sure I see evidence that having the coin in your pocket is going to help Canadians think about this. Now if the government wanted to follow up the release of the coin with you know a series of cross country -- I don't even know what this would look like -- a series of cross country town halls in which there would be some facilitation of a discussion -- I'd be all for that. But I don't see that in the cards.

CO: All right we'll leave it there. Professor Maynard I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SM: Thank you very much. Nice talking with you.

JD: Steven Maynard is a Canadian historian specializing in the history of sexuality. We reached him in Kingston, Ontario.

[Music]

Relationship milestone

JD: Who is to say what constitutes a relationship milestone? I mean besides society. Which tends to get hung up on just a couple of predictable major developments: weddings and births. Well life's more complicated than that, isn't it? So we should all be celebrating along with the couple who placed an ad in the newspaper to announce to the readership of the Times of London that they are going steady, and it's cool. Under "Congratulations" in today's Times is the following announcement -- and I quote, "Mr. Adam Trouble of London S-W-6 and Miss Helen Ingrid Bennett of Middlesex are dating exclusively and having a lovely time xxx." Well, congratulations to Mr. Trouble and Ms. Bennett. Not just for this landmark in their romance, but for denying social norms to tell us about it. And we cordially invite them to continue providing updates on their dating. I welcome a follow-up like "Mr. Adam Trouble and Ms. Helen Ingrid Bennett got food poisoning at the same time and it was gross. But now they're great except they'll never eat calamari again, xxx." And/or "Mr. Adam Trouble and Ms. Helen Ingrid Bennett went to IKEA together and are recovering nicely from the ordeal xxx." It is overdue recognition that every romance has its own significant moments. And that you can celebrate whatever you want to celebrate including yourselves because when it comes to newspaper ads, society doesn't get to decide what constitutes classified information.

[Music]

Part 3: Notre-Dame: Fundraising

Notre-Dame: Fundraising

Guest: Michel Picaud

JD: Less than 24 hours since the fire -- and nearly one billion dollars has already been pledged to rebuild the Notre-Dame Cathedral. That promise came from several French business leaders and corporations. And that is before President Emmanuel Macron has even launched a planned fundraising campaign. But when supporters of the Notre-Dame were fundraising for renovations, money was hard to come by. Michel Picaud heads up the group that was organizing those fundraising efforts, Friends of Notre-Dame de Paris. He has not set foot inside the cathedral since the fire. We reached Mr. Picaud in Paris.

CO: Michel the images we're seeing from inside the cathedral are stunning. There is of course smoke and ash and destruction, but the main crucifix is there -- untouched. How did that make you feel when you could see that?

MICHEL PICAUD: I was really relieved. And learned that actually inside the cathedral, many artifacts were still intact so I was very relieved when I heard all that because I must confess yesterday night when I saw the flames in the belfry of the north tower I was very anxious of the roof -- I said so if it is to pop again then this would be a disaster. But now I am relieved.

CO: And I know you were there yesterday before the fire. You have been at work that day and then you found out later what had happened. At what point did you learn that there was something very wrong at Notre-Dame?

MP: Very quickly because actually I left probably at the end of the afternoon and I was called by your Andre Finot -- the head of communication -- at 18:50 so I think it was just after the alert popped up. And so I immediately took the train because I'm living 25-kilometres from Paris so I took the train back and I was there at 8-8:30. So this was really terrible when I discovered the flames, the smoke, and the overall situation.

CO: And you were of course among thousands at the church who were having that same feelings -- and all Parisians, people around the world feeling that. But for you and your group, Friends of Notre-Dame de Paris, and the fund raising you had done just get those renovations done. What was going through your mind as you saw that fire burn?

MP: Actually what came to my mind was we were already some way I would say into this restoration. And then there is a risk that everything be brought back to zero. So this was my first reaction so I said no it's not possible. And after all I thought it through and I said okay so let's see where we are, let's see where we stop this huge damage, and afterwards we will recover and we will start again on the way of the full restoration.

CO: I know that it had been very difficult for you and the others to raise the money for the renovations that were going on -- and all that scaffolding we see around the spire, that we of course lost, all of that was very difficult for you even to get the money to do that. Why was it so difficult? Why did people not help before?

MP: Because I would say at the beginning -- first of all, nobody was aware of the dire situation of the cathedral because when you look at the cathedral from the square the facade looks very beautiful but as soon as you turn around the cathedral and you look at the [inaudible] you'll see that it's very thick degraded. And people don't know that so this is probably the first reason. And the second one is that actually in France it's quite difficult to motivate philanthropists for this type of renovation so actually we had a great chance also to have a very strong support from North American people, and people from across the world -- and to be able to motivate -- mutually -- French people and international people on the project.

CO: But now we learned today that people from around the world -- and a lot of them from your country have donated or pledged as much as 600-million euros to rebuild Notre-Dame after this fire. What did you make of that when you heard that this money was now rolling in?

MP: So I said okay this is very good news first of all and thank you very much to people of the companies who are committing at this. I must say probably I have not been very convincing because I had approached some of these companies before the fire and I had not got the same response. So I said thank you very much and this will be very helpful to renovate the cathedral because I think there will be hundreds of millions of euros to spend on this renovation.

CO: We don't know the cause of the fire but is it possible that things might have been different if you'd had the kinds of money to do the renovations properly in the first place?

MP: I think if we had been able to do the renovation more quickly -- we could perhaps have avoided this type of catastrophe so that's for sure because even the innovation of the spire was to protect the roof -- I would say the state of the spire itself was very degrade and that's the same also with flying buttresses at the backside of the cathedral so it's very urgent to move forward with this renovation. We've waited too long I would say to start with this renovation. We have done no major renovations since middle of the 19th century on this cathedral. And we saw it even in the last decade so we saw it also degrade itself progressively so you know it was very last minute renovation that we did. Now I think we will learn from this catastrophe and will be able to move forward.

CO: You haven't been inside the cathedral since the fire. What are you anxious to get in there and see?

MP: I've seen pictures but I think this will be also a terrible moment to get into the cathedral knowing I would say it's beauty in its former state so I think this will be a difficult time for me. Even if we have the strong target to bring it back to its former state. So I would say it will be difficult, tough, for me.

CO: Michel I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

MP: Thank you very much. And thank you for your support.

JD: Michel Picaud is head of the non-profit group, Friends of Notre-Dame de Paris. We reached him in Paris.

[Music]

Nancy Pelosi

JD: If Brexit weakens the Good Friday Agreement, the UK can forget about a trade deal with the US. That was the message US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was sending last night when she spoke in London. The 1998 peace agreement which promises an open border between Ireland and Northern Ireland has caused a lot of tension in the British parliament as it attempts to plan its exit from the European Union. US President Donald Trump has indicated that he would be open to a post-Brexit trade deal. But Speaker Pelosi warned the UK not to get too comfortable. Here's part of what she had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

NANCY PELOSI: If there is any harm to the Good Friday accord -- there would be no chance whatsoever a non-starter for a US-UK trade agreement. Now let me just say this, it's not just -- the Good Friday Accords that ended like 700 years of conflict -- it's not just about that geography. This is not a treaty only. It's an ideal. It's a value. It's something that is a model to the world. Something we all take pride in. The U.S. President Clinton, Senator George Mitchell, and others -- were involved in all that for a long period of time. And of course it was the UK -- the Northern Ireland people as well as, and Ireland, who all participated with heart. But it was a model and other people have used it as a model and we don't want that model to be something that can be marked away in some other agreement.

JD: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi speaking in London last night.

[Music]

Cale Makar

JD: It was a tough night for Calgary Flames fans watching the game last night against the Colorado Avalanche. The Flames lost 6 to 2. But for Cale Makar, it was a career highlight because he scored his first ever NHL goal. Mr. Makar grew up in Calgary as a diehard Flames fan. But he scored that goal for Colorado -- in his first NHL game ever. It also happened to be the game winner. His dad, Gary, spoke with guest host Kathleen Petty on the "Calgary Eyeopener" about that moment.

SOUNDCLIP

GARY MAKAR: Honestly I don't know if I've ever even heard a building that loud. Even when we were in the in the world juniors in Buffalo just the way the Pepsi Center is designed and everybody with the white pom-pom -- it was absolutely insane. So just really a surreal moment.

KATHLEEN PETTY: So take me to the moment first of all when you found out that he would be playing.

GARY MAKAR: It was just probably up to 10:30 in the morning yesterday. We had got home around 10:30 at night from Buffalo via Toronto and we weren't sure. And then at 10:30 in morning or advisor Brian called said that Mr. Sakic called them and said they're bringing the Makar's in. So they scrambled and organized everything -- got us. Just after 2:00 fly us to Salt Lake City. And we walked in the building with our luggage at about 10 minutes before the puck drop and just started to soak it all in.

KATHLEEN PETTY: Incredible. So obviously you have high hopes, he's your son. But did you think he was going to score?

GARY MAKAR: You never know -- when you just go in -- figured that he would get three or four shifts and just sort of let his skate in the moment and stuff. And you pinch yourself when you get a chance to actually score your very first goal at the Stanley Cup playoffs. So it's pretty crazy.

KATHLEEN PETTY: And so when you talk to Cale -- when you talk to your son after the game, can you tell me what the conversation is?

GARY MAKAR: He's so down to earth and we all worked with him on that for many years [inaudible] -- and nothing really fazes him. And he never gets too excited and never gets too down and just goes about his business. It's a nice quiet confidence I would have to say. But was he excited? Absolutely. And he maybe said he was going to get a framed puck -- [chuckles] my first goal in Stanley Cup. Yeah you probably will.

KATHLEEN PETTY: How easy is it been for you to transfer your allegiance from the Flames of the Avalanche?

GARY MAKAR: Oh my goodness -- Laura and I were watching and I think we probably looked -- ten times and said okay we're here in the Pepsi Center shaking our white pom-poms -- but yeah it was really really weird because I love the Flames and we're huge Flames fans and have closets full of stuff so yeah -- I'm sure there's a few people that aren't too happy with us.

JD: That was Gary Makar speaking on CBC Calgary this morning. His son, Cale, scored his first ever NHL goal for the Colorado Avalanche against the Flames last night. They beat the Fames 6 - 2.

[Music]

Montreal Councillor: Bill 21

Guest: Lionel Perez

JD: You will not find Valerie Plante -- the Mayor of Montreal -- and Lionel Perez, the leader of the official opposition in Montreal on the same side of many issues. But recently something has brought these two rivals together and that is: Bill-21 -- the Quebec provincial government's secularism bill which would ban some civil servants from wearing religious symbols at work. For Mr. Perez that issue is both political and deeply personal. He wears a kippa at work. Yesterday, he and Ms. Plante proposed a motion together to declare Montreal's opposition to the bill. And city council unanimously voted to pass it. We reached Lionel Perez in Montreal.

CO: Mr. Perez it appeared you had tears in your eyes when you were speaking about the declaration at that news conference yesterday. Why is this such an emotional issue for you?

LIONEL PEREZ: Well it's an issue that I have been talking about for many years. We've had a lot of different discussions over the years in Quebec. And while speaking at city council when we were talking about this unanimous declaration I simply choked up. And the issue is a fundamental respect of rights of freedoms for every citizen. We don't want to create two classes of citizens based on religion based on creed or whatnot. And it just got to me.

CO: And we're talking about Bill 21 -- this is the Quebec provincial government's secularism bill. How might it affect you personally?

LP: Myself, I'm a city councillor and in that respect it doesn't affect me directly. But it will affect many of my citizens in Montreal. People who want to become police officers, people who eventually want to become judges, people who want to work as a lawyer in the Montreal legal offices, and finally teachers in the public school system. And more than the individual specific positions. It's also the atmosphere that you know it creates in the background this sense of creating a glass ceiling based on religion.

CO: And you wear a kippa.

LP: That's correct. I have worn a kippa my entire adult life. And I've never seen it to be an impact in the way I act and work as a city councillor or as a lawyer before that. I'm welcomed everywhere I go -- I visit people from different walks of life. My district is very multicultural, and people are not offended in any way. And I think that's the new reality of Montreal and of Quebec. And in a society where we want to be more inclusive and more welcoming, these laws don't help and they send us wrong kind of signals.

CO: So this is very unusual. In Montreal City Council you have opposition parties -- it's not common to other municipalities. But this was a unanimous declaration. The opposition in the City Council joined with Mayor Valerie Plante and made this declaration. What message are you trying to send?

LP: The signal and the symbolism that we wanted to convey is one of unity. And we wanted to send a strong signal that the largest city in Quebec is sending to the Quebec government that we speak with one voice and you cannot ignore what we say on behalf of our citizens.

CO: But this is as you said symbolic -- it is a symbolic gesture. Does it do anything? Is it just that gesture or does it carry any weight -- does it change anything?

LP: Well I think time will tell. Obviously we have parliamentary commissions that are going to come. But this is a strong symbol that is being sent -- it is a strong message because over the last few weeks the Quebec government has said that there's a consensus in Quebec. They've repeated that line time and time again. And what we're saying here is that there is no such consensus. Montreal the region or the island of Montreal which is over a quarter of the population of Quebec and all its elected officials are saying, no -- there's no consensus. This does not reflect Montreal or Quebec values. We don't see ourselves in this law. And that's a strong message the Quebec government had to respond to it -- they did in Quebec City today. And we're going to continue doing so throughout this process.

CO: This consensus that we've seen in the city of Montreal -- Montreal is the most diverse city in Quebec, this is where most immigrants generally go to settle. So you're unanimous in believing that this is wrong, then where is it coming from? Where is this consensus the government claims it has? Where does it originate?

LP: Well we have to understand the vast majority of the electorate that voted in the government -- the new government -- is really in rural regions. Out of 27 ridings in Montreal they only were able to get two elected and it wasn't with strong margins. So you're right in saying that Montreal is a cosmopolitan city. We receive 75 percent of all immigration in Quebec. We have a lot of diversity -- a lot of different ethnic groups and religious groups. And basically the Quebec government which ironically is tabling this law which is targeting Montreal and is only going to impact Montreal has its greatest support for people outside of Montreal. There's been unfortunately too much talk about this for the last 10 years about reasonable accommodations. And in a certain sense there's fatigue on this issue in the population and they're hoping that if we have this law -- if this is going to settle the matter, we'll be able to move on, then we're ready to go ahead with it. But in reality the people who are supporting it, are not people who are going to be affected by it.

CO: We've heard from numbers of teachers -- women who wear hijab who are faced that they believe with having to make the choice between their jobs, their careers, that they love and their their religion and symbols of their faith. How many people do you think are affected in that way in Quebec?

LP: We don't have an exact number. But when you look at all the different positions and the potential we're talking of hundreds if not thousands there's no doubt about it. And we're talking about individuals that are sometimes already in the system. They're about to graduate to become teachers or to become police officers. And already we have really certain difficulties in trying to attain a certain level of representivity from different or visible minorities. We really have a challenge -- we're already under representing. This is adding another obstacle.

CO: There are many civil society leaders in Quebec and some suburban mayors who say they will refuse to enforce Bill 21 should it become the law. They plan to conduct civil disobedience. Will you join them?

LP: Well I've always said that I don't want to declare forfeit or defeat before the law is actually implemented and adopted. I believe in our institutions. I believe in our process. I believe that there's still an opportunity. We have heard the issue of civil disobedience. I think when you see public figures, elected officials, raise that specter that shows that there isn't a consensus -- that shows that the government is really leading us the wrong path. You know we've never seen this where elected officials have called for civil disobedience on something of this nature or otherwise. So it's really a signal to the Quebec government that they've gone too far and I don't think we should cross that bridge until we really have to.

CO: We will leave it there Mr. Perez thank you.

LP: Thank you very much.

JD: Lionel Perez is the leader of the official opposition in the city of Montreal. That's where we reached him.

[Music]

Terry Hargreaves

JD: Peter Mansbridge once described Terry Hargreaves as someone who was quote, "in his element by being ahead of the curve and not following the pack." Terry Hargreaves -- a veteran CBC journalist -- died earlier this month. He was 82-years-old. After moving from England with his family to Windsor, Ontario, Mr. Hargreaves began his career in journalism as a volunteer weekend radio newsreader. From those beginnings he went on to become CBC's first parliamentary bureau chief. He travelled the country with prime ministers, and covered stories important to Canadians. Stories like transit. In 1966 when Toronto's Bloor-Danforth subway line opened, Terry Hargreaves did a CBC Television News special. Here is an excerpt beginning with an introduction from As It Happens' own Al Maitland.

SOUNDCLIP

AL MAITLAND: A small town newspaper one said it's nice to be able to afford a subway but it's nicer not to need one. But Metro has needed one and it's needed other solutions to ever increasing problems of traffic congestion. In all Northern American cities the problem grows more acute. The search for solutions accelerates. The deceptively simple answer that's often given is, get people out of cars and into mass public transportation. City Hall reporter Terry Hargreaves took a look at the situation in Metro. And here is his report.

TERRY HARGREAVES: Good evening. The last three or four years have seen a changing stress in spending --slightly away from roads and more to subways. The new East-West leg cost 200 million dollars. To help persuade potential riders to use it, a controversial Y was added. This gives an old transfer ride downtown. I had earlier asked the Transit Commission for an interview with an official to explain how the Y worked. Opinion on the Y is so split within the TTC but no one wanted to be interviewed on television about it. As one official put it to me, we're all chicken up here. Earlier at the Bathurst station I asked some passengers how they liked the new crosstown line.

VOICE 1: Oh I think it's lovely -- it's wonderful. It saves lots of time and everything. I think it's wonderful.

VOICE 2: Well I find it a little slower getting home. I'm used to the Chaplin bus so I tried a new route -- it's a little slower.

VOICE 3: I'm using it every day. It's a timesaver -- really is terrific.

TERRY HARGREAVES: And you don't find it confusing?

VOICE 3: No. If you can read your way.

JD: Former CBC reporter Terry Hargreaves speaking with passengers on the Toronto subway in 1966. Terry Hargreaves died earlier this month. He was 82-years-old.

[Music]

Aretha Franklin

JD: Every year, the Pulitzer Prize jury picks winners in various clearly defined categories. But jurors also have a wide open choice if they really feel moved to exercise it. They can select one human being out of all the human beings to give a special award or citation to. Past honorees include various newspapers, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Dr. Seuss, Duke Ellington, Bob Dylan, Hank Williams. Artists, journalists, composers -- with very little in common, ultimately, besides all being legends -- and all being men. And so the announcement of this year's special citation winner prompts two responses: "phew" and "duh." It is Aretha Franklin, for what the Pulitzer jury calls quote, "Her indelible contribution to American music and culture for more than five decades." "Indelible" is about right. Because even the songs that were not hits are still pretty unforgettable.

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April 16, 2019 Episode Transcript

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