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The AIH Transcript for April 11, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

CAROL OFF: Hello, I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening, I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

Prologue

JD: Tonight:

CO: The lodger dislodged. After seven years, Julian Assange is booted from the Ecuadorian Embassy in London and arrested — and a friend says, love him or hate him, we should all be appalled.

JD: Specious delivery. A Moncton nurse was fired after a hospital says they found she'd secretly given patients drugs to induce labour — and now, several women have filed a lawsuit.

CO: Back to confront. A protester says the end of the line for Sudan's longtime president won't be the end of protests — because the people will defy the military coup and stay until they see real change.

JD: The bitterest pills. In Vancouver, dozens of people have overdosed on an anxiety medication cut with heroin and fentanyl in the last few weeks. Our guest calls the situation "terrifying".

CO: Extra, extra — because somebody had to be. A 37-year veteran of Ohio's Plain Dealer newspaper survived the latest devastating staff cuts, but axed himself to make room for a younger reporter.

JD: And...snap judgment — or lack thereof. A guy confessed to breaking off the thumb of a 2000-year-old Chinese statue — but for some reason, a jury refused to finger the culprit.

JD: "As It Happens", the Thursday edition. Radio that believes thumb thing has gone horribly wrong

[Music: Theme]

Part one: Assange arrest, Sudan coup, library discovered

Assange arrest

Guest: Srecko Horvat

JD: Nearly seven years ago, Julian Assange walked into the Ecuadorian embassy in London. Today, he was led out in shackles. The WikiLeaks founder had initially sought refuge in the embassy to avoid being extradited to Sweden to be questioned about sexual assault allegations. But he long claimed his real fear was being sent to the United Sates to be charged with hacking and espionage. It appears that fear was justified. An indictment unsealed today charges Mr. Assange with conspiring to hack a computer. Srecko Horvat is a friend of Julian Assange, and the founder of the Democracy in Europe Movement. We reached him in Zagreb, Croatia.

CO: Mr. Horvat, what did you think when you saw those pictures of Julian Assange being taken out of the embassy by police this morning?

SRECKO HORVAT: Well, to be completely, brutally honest with you, I think it's a scandal that an ambassador of a country which granted him asylum — a political asylum to protect him precisely from being extradited to the United States — calls the British Metropolitan Police in order to get inside of the Ecuadorian embassy and to drag him out.

CO: And how did he look to you? What were your impressions of his appearance?

SH: Well, I met Julian plenty of times — only at the Ecuadorian embassy in London — and at the beginning when I started to visit him a few years ago. He was really in a good physical and mental shape. But as the time progressed, his physical state is really suffering. I mean just imagine that in the room in which you are sitting today listening to this voice and our conversation that you didn't exit this room for seven years. That you didn't see the sun for seven years. That you didn't have the opportunity to have fresh air for seven years. It would leave really difficult consequences.

CO: But Ecuador says the reasons why he had to go was because at asylum — when you give asylum to somebody — it comes with conditions, doesn't it? And that said Mr. Assange had been meddling in the internal affairs of other states, he had installed electronic equipment that was forbidden, and he had mistreated the guards. So doesn't it appear that Mr. Assange had himself violated the conditions that could keep him as a person seeking asylum?

SH: I would say it's precisely the other way around. I think that it is the state of Ecuador which violated its own constitution. Not only that they granted political asylum to Assange, but they also granted him citizenship. So in order to remove his citizenship, they should have a parliament deciding it, and so on and so on. So it is the state of Ecuador which was acting unconstitutional.

CO: As far as what he has been arrested for, I mean there were these sexual assault issues with Sweden. All of those are now gone, except for failure to appear. What was really the issue for Mr. Assange was what we've now learned there is an extradition request from the United States. What's his worst fear as far as going to the United States to face this one count of conspiring to hack a computer?

SH: I would say that that the U.S. charge, which is now unsealed, is completely ridiculous. One sentence said that he was encouraging Chelsea Manning to hack a password. And I think this is ridiculous. Because you know what it means. You mentioned that the two of us have a conversation, and you are trying to get information out of me. Imagine that you say after I said oh, I cannot give you the information because of that or this reason. Imagine that you say curious eyes never run dry. This is something Julian Assange said to Chelsea Manning. Is this a reason to really charge him? It is becoming unlawful to solicit tips from sources.

CO: Just for people who don't know, it's important people know what exactly was released. And this was an extraordinary trove wasn't it of documents — 400,000. It became known as the Iraq War Logs, and some of it was very, very controversial damning images of people civilians being bombed and killed in that. So it was a considerable embarrassment. Do you think it's possible that there is more? Because there are more issues with Mr. Assange than just this one download.

SH: Yes, certainly there is there is more. I mean he became an enemy of the United States. But it all started in a way precisely with the so-called Collateral Murder Widow, which was leaked by Chelsea Manning. And you made a good point. You know it's thousands of pages of documents. And my question is how can publishing about war crimes be worse than the war crimes itself?

CO: You know there are a lot of journalists who don't see Julian sand as their champion because they look at what he leaked from Hillary Clinton's emails that were applauded He thanked Julian Assange, didn't he? At one point for what he had released, how much it had helped his campaign, and this is a president who went on to say that journalists are the enemy of the people. So lots of people see, lots of journalists see Julian Assange as an agent who helped to bring that to be. So what do you say to them?

SH: Let's let me put it like this since you're in Canada, right? So imagine you or me have certain information about a corruption scandal connected to Justin Trudeau, would you publish that information or not, knowing the possible consequences? I think what WikiLeaks did by publishing the Hillary Clinton emails they really revealed how corrupted the Democratic Party itself was. In what way the Democratic Party was you know cooperating with Google for instance. In what way the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton actually undermined Bernie Sanders. I think this is information which the American audience to whom I am speaking now really needed to know.

CO: But those American journalists also know that there is evidence that he was in contact with people like Roger Stone. That they look at him as being someone who might have been working not as a journalist, but as an operative who was trying to help Donald Trump to get elected. Is that possible?

SH No, certainly not. Of course, he had contacts with some people like Nigel Farage. I'm not glad about it. I'm completely opposed to Nigel Farage. I also didn't agree when we had several discussions, me and Julian, at the embassy about Brexit. We didn't agree on it. I was against Brexit. He was more in favour of it, and so on. You don't have to like him. You don't have to agree with him. But this is something much more about Julian his views, his contacts with certain people, and so on. It is really about a principle. And it is about something which is setting a precedent for the future of journalism, and in which way we will be able to speak at all.

CO: I'm going to get one last question because we have to go. But you when you when you saw when you saw Julian Assange the last time when you were visiting him, did he seem prepared for this day?

SH: That's a tough question. I think he was always prepared for this day. Not necessarily for the way in which he would be dragged out in this brutal way out of the embassy. But he was really prepared. He was all the time saying that the U.S. wants to extradite him.

CO: The last time you saw him knowing this was possibly what was going to happen, what was that relationship like? What was your encounter like?

SH: Well, I mean we had a lot of fun at the embassy as well. Although you can understand the situation there is not really nice. But we had food from Croatia which I brought, even some wine, and once during one of our last visits, I brought him a bottle of sea salt. And the immediate reaction of Julian was to try to drink the sea salt because it has been years — almost a decade — since he didn't taste the sea or see the sea. And that was quite emotional. And I wanted to bring a new bottle of sea salt, but it doesn't really make sense at the moment. But I still hope he will have the opportunity to see the sea, and to see the sun again.

CO: Mr. Horvat, I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

SH: I appreciate it a lot. Thanks a lot.

CO: Bye-bye.

SH: Bye-bye.

JD: Srecko Horvat is a friend of Julian Assange. We reached him in Zagreb, Croatia. Back in 2016, Carol spoke with Mr. Assange while he was still living in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. Here, from our archives, is part of that interview in which Mr. Assange talks about his possible extradition to the U.S.

SOUNDCLIP

JULIAN ASSANGE: I want to work. No one wants to spend 20 years in supermax because they can't work, they can't see their family, et cetera, et cetera.

CO: But why not face the music? Why not go to United States?

JA: You shouldn’t put it in the terms of people being unreasonably fearful of things.

CO: No, no, but you said yourself you weren't afraid. I just want to know why not go to United States? Why not face the music? Why not see what they've got against you, and clear your name?

JA: Well, because you know what they have done to my alleged co-conspirator Chelsea Manning. That they put her in prison for 35 years — sentenced to 35 years. Tortured her while she was there. That was so bad that the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture denounced United States over it. And Hillary Clinton's spokesperson resigned over the issue. It's… unfortunately the Espionage Act is not an act that has a public defence. It's the same reason why Edward Snowden is not able to return to United States because he would not be given a fair trial.

CO: Just a quick yes or no question, you don't believe that you could get a fair trial in the United States?

JA: It is not possible to receive a fair trial under the Espionage Act defence.

JD: From 2016, that was Julian Assange speaking to Carol. Today, after seven years in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, Mr. Assange was arrested by British police. If an extradition request is granted, Mr. Assange could be sent to the United States to stand trial on charges of conspiring to hack a computer. We have more on this story on the “As It Happens” website. That can be found at: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Ambient]

Sudan coup

Guest: Dallia

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: Many people chant slogans in what sounds like a street]

JD: That’s the sound of thousands of protesters in Khartoum, Sudan today, chanting "the revolution has only just begun." The crowd had just learned that President Omar al-Bashir had been ousted. But the news of his replacement — the military — gave protesters no cause for celebration. At a televised press conference, Sudan's Defence Minister, General Awad Ibn Ouf, said that President Bashir had been arrested, and that a state of emergency was being called. And that the army would take charge for the next two years. Here's what he said, with English translation.

SOUNDCLIP

AWAD IBN OUF: [Speaking in a foreign language]

TRANSLATION: The commission has shouldered its responsibility to carry out a transitional period for two years to represent the people with limited representation, to manage and to spare the bloodshed of the honourable Sudanese people. Therefore, I would like to announce that the regime — the head of the regime — has been removed, and is being held in a secure place.

JD: Along with thousands of others, our next guest listened to that press conference live. We reached Dallia in Khartoum. We're withholding her last name for safety reasons.

CO: Dallia, how would you describe your range of emotions as you saw the people at the protests today?

DALLIA: Well, this morning when we first set out, literally from the minute we stepped out of our house until we got to the general command area, it was just euphoria and happiness. I mean it was literally one big party, screaming at each other in joy. Like we couldn't believe that we could reach this point. So to go from that, and then to hear the announcements from the Minister of Defence, it was just like someone pricked the balloon. I mean literally, you could just hear everyone just go silent — it was deadly silent.

CO: And just to tell people, the Defence Minister, he held this this televised press conference. He said the army was taking over, and that he said what the conditions are. Do you want to tell us what you learned?

D: It's just changing of the faces. But everything stays same, same, basically. It's still the regime is in power. Our protest was not about one person. It was about the whole setup, the whole regime, the whole ruling party. We want them all out. Basically, we were told we'll have a curfew, which I don't think anyone will abide by. If you're in that area of the general command, no one's leaving. They haven't left since Saturday. So they're not going to leave today. It's a charade. It's a charade that they’re thinking that we will fall for and accept. And we haven't. And we won't.

CO: We've been watching these extraordinary images in Sudan, in Khartoum, the women out there. This one extraordinary woman and white on top of a car, rallying everybody. It's been so inspiring to watch that. Do you feel at all that maybe the military used you, or is using your protest to get what it wants?

D: No, actually. Because the military's always been on the government’, on the regime’s side. But I think what happened was that splits began to emerge within the army. So the lower-ranking officers of the army began to side with the protesters. But the higher-ranking ones, I think they prefer the status quo to go on as it is.

CO: I just want put this out to you because it's been… people talking about it online is that it like what happened in Algeria or Egypt, where the army appeared to be with the people, joined with them, and it was very jubilant. But then they appeared to be infiltrators, who then got in and then brought the protests down. I mean I hate to throw a conspiracy theory into this, but do you trust them?

D: The army we've learned. I mean this is not our first revolt against the dictatorship. This is our third one. However, we do watch the news. We know what's happening in our neighboring countries Algeria, or Tunisia, or Egypt, or Syria, or wherever. And we know the army is not to be trusted. The army is here to serve us the people, not the other way round. It's an arm of the government. It should be at work to serve the people. The army needs to realize that they should do what the people's will. And the people's will is a change of regime. The people's will is that we have a civilian interim government in place until we are able to have an election. Until we are able to decide and choose who should be our next leader. The army should be wise enough to realize this, and not think that we'll just blindly follow what they tell us to.

CO: We spoke with, and I've heard from, a lot of young people in Sudan, who are very excited about this. But you this is not your first military coup is it? I mean you're 43 years old. You've had a taste of this before. What memories is this bringing back for you?

D: I mean walking down the street today in downtown Khartoum, I just came back like a flood of memories. I was like oh, my God. It's the same thing. But the difference is this one is more youth-oriented. It's the youth who have led us, you know? Before, back in 1985, it was mainly the professionals like the student unions, and the lawyers syndicate, and so on and so forth. But this time, it's been the youth. And they have mobilized, and they have used social media, and then they have used art, and they have you so many different methods to draw us all in to make us a part of it. Also, I appreciate it more. I'm wiser. I’m older now, so I understand. And I’ve seen the fact that we reached this point up to 30 years. It's been a struggle. It's not easy. I mean it's not like we decided within a day you know oh, let's go out and protest. We've tried before. But this time the fear factor is gone. We're not scared anymore. They can't kill all of us. They can't keep all of us. They can't detain all of us. You know our numbers are huge! Today, I was just gobsmacked. I was like oh, my God, you know? This is incredible. This is just such a beautiful sight. People of all ages, from all walks of life, from all ethnic backgrounds, and social backgrounds, male, female, grandparents, young babies, you know kids. It was just a beautiful sight. And they got going to take that away from us. We've reached the point of no return. And we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and we won't stop until we get there.

CO: Tomorrow, of course, is Friday. And we have seen this is very, very important to the Arab street after prayers to be there to bear witness. What do you expect is going to happen tomorrow afternoon in Khartoum?

D: Well, they were already planning a mass prayer — Friday prayer — at the general command, at the central point where the posters are. We'll see how it unfolds. However, I think tonight will be the big litmus test, so to speak. The curfew should effectively be in place from tonight. But no one's going home. No one's leaving. So we'll see how tonight unfolds. And then, hopefully, it will only get better from here on.

CO: Dallia, the world is watching. And it's great to speak with you. Thank you.

D: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

JD: Dallia is a protester in Khartoum, Sudan. We're withholding her last name for her safety. For up-to-date news on the ongoing protests in Sudan, go to: www.cbc.ca/news.

[Music: Sombre piano]

Library discovery

Guest: Edward Wilson-Lee

JD: Five-hundred years ago, there existed a library like no other. Thousands of volumes, collected from around the world, by the son of explorer we know as Christopher Columbus. Hernando Colon's ambition was that that library would contain every book and manuscript in the world. Today, only a quarter of that collection survives, housed in Seville Cathedral. However, one very important book of the library — maybe the most important — has turned up mysteriously in Copenhagen. An index of sorts. Edward Wilson-Lee is a fellow with Sidney Sussex College at the University of Cambridge. He's also the author of a biography of Hernando Colon, called "The Catalogue of Shipwrecked Books". We reached Mr. Wilson-Lee in Cambridge.

CO: Edward, first of all, what does this catalogue look like?

EDWARD WILSON-LEE: So it's an extraordinary object. It's about a foot thick. It's the size of a kind of coffee table book; you know a photographic coffee table book. And it's 2,000 pages of essentially book summaries from the early 16th century. And you know what's really exciting about this is that many of these books probably exist in no other form than in this manuscript that's been discovered.

CO: But this is entries about all the books in this massive collection that well… most of it no longer exists?

EWL: Yeah. So this is not all the books. So this is Christopher Columbus's illegitimate son, Hernando, who had a project to rival his father's. You know his father, as you know every school child is told, wasn't trying to look for America. America got in the way when he was trying to circumnavigate the world — to try and sail west to the Indies. But Hernando had his own project trying to prove himself his father's legitimate spiritual heir, even if he wasn't his father's legitimate son, by building a universal library which had every book in the world in it. He lived this utterly extraordinary life even beyond this project. He travels with his father to the new world, and lives on a shipwreck with Columbus for almost a year. And travels around, meets many of the greatest figures of the period, and starts the first botanical garden in Europe. He writes a dictionary. He does all of these things, travels his whole life collecting these books, and brought them back to his library in Seville. But he realized that having all of this information was going to be useless unless there was some way of navigating it. So he employed an army of readers essentially to distill the books in the library down into short summaries.

CO: What a great job.

EWL: Yeah, I know. Well, it does sound pretty good. And they were actually allowed to follow their own impulses in choosing what to read, you know? I suppose kind of like a Roomba or something, as long as you know everyone's bumping around the library not picking up the same book twice, eventually everything will get covered.

CO: Right. But some of the entries — there's a lot of them that the books no longer exist, right? What's happened to the library?

EWL: So a small part of the library still exists in Seville, in the Bibliotheca Colombia. But after Hernando’s death, he passed it on to his descendants, who didn't really recognize the worth of what they had. In part because Hernando’s visionary move was to collect everything, and I mean everything. You know in the early age of print, how print really revolutionized the world was by making it possible to distribute cheap print. You know information in news sheets, and popular ballads, and erotica, and weather forecasts, and things like that. But no one at the time actually thought of collecting this stuff. You know kind of like early websites or early Hollywood movies, people didn't think of it as you know an elite cultural form. So no one bothered to collect it or note down apart from Hernando.

CO: At the time that when Hernando was collecting all these books, I guess it was possible at that time to collect all the books in the world, right?

EWL: Yeah. So he personally went around and bought books on these extraordinary books shopping sprees, where he was purchasing thousands of titles at a time. So yes, I mean this was a time when it was just about within someone's reach to try and buy a copy of everything. But it's kind of accelerating out of the realm of possibility as he was doing it. And I think towards the end of his life, you know they start to realize that this tidal wave of printed information is becoming more and more difficult to organize.

CO: So what happened to this library — this collection — after his death?

EWL: So yeah, he left it to his nephew, who was the legitimate heir to the Columbus title and fortune. His nephew, like Hernando’s brother, the legitimate heir through which it passed, was a complete wastrel. The only thing he achieved was being imprisoned in North Africa for bigamy. And during this time, essentially, had he had no interest in the library. The library bumped around. It lived in a monastery for a while. And then it ended up in Seville Cathedral. But again, because no one really recognized the worth of it, it was locked in basically an attic room for hundreds of years. And during that time, lots of this stuff was stolen — including this book that's turned up in Copenhagen. A lot of it just went the way things out of neglect.

CO: But the scholars like you who knew about the story and about this collection, did you know that there was this book out there that would actually describe the collection in this way?

EWL: It was known that it existed at one point. Hernando’s last librarian leaves a description of basically the state of the library at his death, and it talks about [the book]. It hasn't been seen for at least 400, if not close to 500 years. And so the assumption had to be it was lost. So yes, hearing that finding it turning up in Copenhagen after 350 years of it lying largely unrecognized was pretty extraordinary. And we have a Canadian scholar to thank for setting us on the trail. He was over looking at some other manuscripts, and saw this one, and said that looks like it might have something to do with this library — this extraordinary library. Myself and my Spanish colleague we're working on a study of the library. We went over a couple weeks ago and verified it. There's no doubt that that's what it is. And it's an extraordinarily exciting find.

CO: Well, good for you, and good for the assist from Canada.

EWL: Absolutely, yeah.

CO: Well, thank you so much for telling us about it, Edward.

EWL: Thank you very much for having me on the show.

CO: Thank you. Bye-bye.

JD: That was Edward Wilson-Lee, a fellow with Sidney Sussex College at the University of Cambridge, and the author of a biography of Hernando Colon, called "The Catalogue of Shipwrecked Books". We reached Mr. Wilson-Lee in Cambridge.

[Music: Ambient]

Part two: Nurse class-action, Plain Dealer journalist

Nurse class-action

Guest: John McKiggan

JD: Oxytocin is often used on pregnant women when they're ready to give birth. But if it is used improperly, it can also be dangerous to mother and baby. And that's what a proposed class-action lawsuit alleges happened at the Moncton hospital — when they say a nurse secretly gave oxytocin to at least two patients, who later had to have emergency c-sections. Last month, the Horizon Health Network fired a registered nurse after its own internal investigation. The lawsuit, which hasn't been certified, names the hospital and the nurse involved. At a news conference today, Jayde Scott, spoke about why she is the named plaintiff in the proposed lawsuit.

SOUNDCLIP

JAYDE SCOTT: Well, I think it's really important that any mom who is affected, such as I was, to come forward and explain how you're feeling. And know that this isn't right. And it was just extremely traumatizing. So my heart goes out to all the other mothers who are affected. I didn't get to meet my girls right away. I was put unconscious, right? So it's supposed to be an exciting moment, and that was robbed.

JD: John McKiggan is the lawyer who is representing the plaintiffs. We reached him in Halifax.

CO: Mr. McKiggan, what do you believe happened to Jayde Scott when she was in Moncton Hospital?

JOHN MCKIGGAN: Jayde has been advised by the hospital staff that while she was in labour, one of the nurses involved in her and delivery surreptitiously injected oxytocin into her saline I.V. And that they believe that is what caused her to go into uncontrollable contractions, which impacted the fetal heart rate of her twins. And so they had to perform an emergency, unnecessary c-section in order to protect her babies.

CO: Why would oxytocin be given to a woman in labour?

JM: Oxytocin is a hormone that's typically given to moms to expedite delivery. And it does that by stimulating the uterus. And it causes contractions. And the contractions move the baby through the birth canal. And when it's given properly, and carefully monitored, things go fine. But if you overdose the patient with oxytocin, it can impact the mother because she can suffer a placental abruption, the uterus can rupture, and it can have adverse impacts on the baby. Because during contractions, that can cause periods of hypoxia — reduced oxygen to the baby. And most babies can withstand that for some period of time. But if the contractions are too strong, or there are too many of them, or they come too quickly that can ultimately cause brain injury to the child.

CO: Because during a contraction, the baby, or in this case the twins, are not getting oxygen.

JM: That can squeeze off the umbilical cord, which carries blood and oxygen to the baby, to the baby's brain.

CO: How is the babies of Jayde Scott now?

JM: Fortunately, they appear to be perfectly fine, perfectly healthy, and I can tell you that they are perfectly beautiful.

CO: But why has she decided to move into a lawsuit?

JM: I have to say I admire Jayde’s courage. She came to us, and she was understandably traumatized by what happened. But she's also frustrated because we believe from the information we've uncovered that she wasn't alone. Well, she wants to know why it happened, how it happened, why did it go on for so long, and I think she's showing a great amount of courage by leading this class action.

CO: When you say it's happened to others, but if oxytocin is something that is frequently given to mothers in labour, what's the line that's crossed? What has it been that's different than what is quite often a routine procedure?

JM: In Jayde's case, and in the other cases we're concerned about, the oxytocin was given without consent, without permission, and without knowledge. If a drug given to create contractions is given to a patient and they are overdosed and the team around them doesn't know, it can be difficult to react appropriately and appropriately treat the patient. So in Jayde's case, she didn't know that she was receiving oxytocin. And in the other cases we're concerned about, it's the same.

CO: What do you know about this nurse you have named as the defendant?

JM: We've been advised that she's worked for Horizon Health and Moncton City Hospital for at least 15 years. There are other locations, other facilities that she worked at. But Moncton City Hospital is where she was performing obstetric duties. She was fired shortly after Jayde's delivery. Jayde, so far as we know, the last victim of this nurse — the last person that this happened to.

CO: And how did the hospital identify this nurse as being someone who was improperly giving oxytocin to women in labour?

JM: They told Jayde the day after her delivery, the day after her babies were born, that this nurse administered oxytocin to her by injecting it into her saline I.V. And they believe that's what caused her contractions and caused the need for an unnecessary emergency Caesarean. How is it that this nurse was getting access to oxytocin? What kind of controls, policies, procedures did the hospital have in place? This isn't like a bottle of Tylenol where you can walk down a Shoppers Drug Mart pick it off the shelf. This is a drug that is strictly controlled. It's dangerous in the wrong hands, as we've seen.

CO: The nurse has not been charged by police. RCMP are investigating. Why don't you wait to find out what happens with that investigation?

JM: The justice system has two arms: the criminal justice system and the civil justice system. The criminal justice system is about investigating someone who was accused of a crime. If there is evidence to indicate beyond reasonable doubt that they may have committed a crime, they can be tried, charged, and convicted, or acquitted. The civil justice system is about addressing harms and losses that someone has suffered through someone else's action — either intentional or negligent. A conviction in this case would not address the harms and losses that these women and children have suffered. Most of us have heard on television and radio the expression proof beyond reasonable doubt. That's the burden of proof that applies in criminal cases. You have to be almost certain that it happened. In the civil justice system, when it comes to compensating people for the harms and losses that they have suffered, the burden of proof is on the balance of probabilities — meaning 50 per cent or more.

CO: You are pursuing a suit against both the nurse and the hospital, is that right?

JM: Correct.

CO: And your class-action lawsuit has not been certified at this point?

JM: Correct. So we filed the pleadings with the court saying we propose that this matter proceed as a class-action. And the first step will be a certification hearing, where the court will look at the evidence to determine whether there is an identifiable class of people who suffered the same harm. And then decide whether it is appropriate to allow the claim to proceed as a class, in other words, whether they can proceed as a group, or whether they will be forced to sue individually.

CO: And until all of this comes to pass, we will point out once again that none of these allegations against the nurse or the hospital have yet been proven in court. Do you have any idea how many people might be in your class-action, if it’s certified?

JM: This nurse has worked at the hospital for over a decade, and she's been involved in hundreds of labouring deliveries during that period of time. So the potential class size is in the hundreds, but the actual class size will depend on the facts that we uncover through the course of the litigation.

CO: All right, we'll leave it there. Mr. McKiggan, Thank you.

JM: My pleasure.

JD: That was lawyer John McKiggan. We reached him in Halifax.

[Music: Ambient]

Charles Van Doren obit

SOUNDCLIP

[Sound: An old recording of the introduction from the show 21]

JD: In the winter of 1956 and 1957, millions of Americans tuned in to watch Charles Van Doren play the quiz game "Twenty One" — and win again, and again, and again. He was a national hero. And a natural one: tall, handsome, humble, an Ivy League English instructor, and the son of a Pulitzer-winning poet. And his answers netted him 129 thousand dollars, and a cushy contract on NBC. But it was all rigged.

SOUNDCLIP

HOST: Your time is up. Tell us the civilization he discovered, first of all, if you can.

CHARLES VAN DOREN: Yes, Pizarro discovered the Incas.

HOST: Right.

CVD: And the Incas lived in Peru.

HOST: You're right. And the leader of a civilization, which would give you twenty-one points if you get this right.

CVD: [muffled mumbling] So I guess Atahualpa was the leader of the Incas at the time of the Conquest.

HOST: That's your answer, Atahualpa?

CVD: That's right.

HOST: Then you scored twenty-one points.

JD: That was Charles van Doren in 1956 on the quiz show "21". Mr. Van Doren was a central figure in the 1950s quiz show scandal in the US. He died Tuesday. He was 93 years old. In 1959, after two years of lying to the press, to his friends, his family, and a Manhattan Grand Jury, Mr. Van Doren came clean. He told a congressional hearing that producers fed him the answers, and coached him on how to make it seem natural. He turned out to be one of more than 100 contestants who did the same. He lost his teaching job at Columbia and his contract with NBC, but eventually he did go on to work at Encyclopedia Britannica, write several books, and have two children. Here he is speaking to Congress in 1959:

SOUNDCLIP

CVD: But what really, really swung me over the line, what really tipped the scales was a letter that I got from a woman who'd seen me on “Today” on the Garroway show. She'd never met me. But I had the feeling she knew everything anyway. Her letter was very intelligent, and it moved me very much. And in it, she said: you must in order to live with yourself. Tell the truth. That’s the only way a man can live is with the truth.

JD: That was Charles Van Doren, the most famous contestant involved in the quiz show scandal of the 1950s. Mr. Van Doren died on Tuesday. He was 93.

[Music: Sombre]

Plain Dealer journalist

Guest: Tom Feran

JD: After 37 years as a reporter and editor at Ohio's largest newspaper, the Plain Dealer, Tom Feran got used to hearing, and delivering, bad news. But lately, all that bad news had been about the paper itself. Like many regional newspapers across North America, the Plain Dealer has been gutted. Just a few months ago, it cut 29 jobs. And then, last week, the news came down that 14 more journalists had to go. Mr. Feran's job was safe. But he volunteered to take the fall — to save the job of a younger journalist. We reached Tom Feran in Cleveland.

CO: Tom, tell us about that call you got from your editor last week.

TOM FARAN: George Rodrigue, our editor, called me at eight o'clock in the morning, and very nicely asked if I was sure…

CO: Sure about what?

TF: About being laid off. Because you know we were having layoffs, and I volunteered. I said I was. He said ok, I'm laying you off. Then he said I know it's your normal day off but would you mind coming in to write the story?

CO: To write what story?

TF: Well, I said you mean the layoff story? He said yeah. And I think we both laughed about the improbability of the whole thing. I went in. I kept laughing all day. I went in and wrote the story.

CO: Well, I know you have written a number of obituaries for the Plain Dealer over the years. Did it feel like you were doing another one?

TF: Well, that's what one of my sons said. He said Dad, you're writing your own obit. Because you know that it took a long time because I was getting messages like that and other phone calls, and I had to had actually report the story. But it didn't quite feel like that because there had been so many of these stories in the media over the years. And you know I'm writing a story, I'm focusing on doing that. You know you got your job to do, and I said well this could be the last one. So I want to make sure it's right.

CO: And did you have to write about your own role in this story?

TF: No, I wrote it as dispassionately as I could. And I don't even know if it occurred to me about you know so many journalists are being laid off from the newsroom. And you know like this writer among them or something like that. Yeah, I don't like an intruding myself into a story like that.

CO: How did you come to the decision that you were going to volunteer yourself for layoffs?

TF: That was actually it was not difficult a decision. I'm 66. My kids are grown. There are other people who were younger. Our editor did tell me that yes, it did save a job. And you know especially saving the job for a younger person. And by you know by younger I don't mean you know that you know so-called kids, you know if somebody in their in their 50s really, or 40. You've got people with kids in school. And once you start writing your age with a five, people aren't lining up at your door to give you jobs, you know?

CO: Do you know who got your job, or who the editor is going to give that position to?

TF: No, there were 14 — ultimately 15 layoffs that are that are happening. It's not a one-to-one you know you saved so and so. It's just that that many job — that many layoffs — are being filled, and other people who are still working won't have to go — at least at least yet.

CO: This is the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and this is a paper that's won many awards. It's been a mainstay in your town for years — for long time, decades. Now they cut 29 jobs a few months ago, and now 14-15 jobs now. So what is that going to do to the Plain Dealer?

TF: It hurts. The staff reductions started some time ago, as they did at other newspapers. And I think you become acutely aware that you're not covering all of the things that you'd like to see covered. You can't get to all of the stories that are out there. And sometimes people ask what stories are you missing? And you know it's a question that can't be answered. You know it's like the dark side of the moon. If you're not if you're not observing those beats, if you're not out there, you don't know what's happening. When you're not covering all of the institutional stories, the local government, school district, local jurisdiction stories that are out there, you are missing I think a lot of the things that really animate society. And your readers are not being informed in the same way that you'd like them to. You know where they go into when they go into vote, you know you want an informed electorate. And it's difficult to maintain that.

CO: In the piece they did in New Yorker magazine about you, you compared the scene that you were in to a Monty Python moment. Do you recall what that was?

TF: Yeah, I said over the years, you have you know this job loss, that job loss, resources diminish. I said it's like the black knight scene in “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”, where you know that the black knight loses you know an arm and then the other arm and all his limbs, and he's propped up on the ground saying you know come on come on. It's just a flesh wound. I'll bite your legs off. And this is what it's like. You're still you know people look unbent, unbowed, still bristling, but missing all limbs.

CO: And darkly funny.

TF: [laughs] Well, you have to have a sense of humour about it, or you'll go nuts.

CO: Tom I hope your retirement is good, and you find out what you want to do in your books. And I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

TF: Thank you, Carol.

CO: Take care.

JD: We reached Tom Feran in Cleveland. For more on this story, go to our website, which is once again: www.cbc.ca/aih.

[Music: Piano]

Stolen warrior thumb

JD: And now, a new segment called "The Briefest Briefing". In which we'll helpfully sum up a complex news story in less than 30 seconds, so you can get on with your day. Let's...begin!

[Sound: A stopwatch]

JD: On Tuesday, a mistrial was declared in the case of a 24-year-old shoe salesman from Delaware, who had been charged with theft and concealment of an object of cultural heritage after he snapped the thumb off a two-thousand-year old Chinese Terracotta Warrior statue at a Philadelphia museum in 2017 while he was drunk at an "Ugly Sweater" Christmas Party, and then took the thumb home. I'm not sure that worked. I mean, first of all, I almost passed out. And second, it might, possibly, have been too much information in too short a time? Because the thing is, in China, this story is a major outrage. Some guy goes to an "Ugly Sweater" party at a museum, goofs around with the Terracotta Warriors, then breaks off the thumb off one of them, takes it home, admits he did it, and anyway, there's surveillance video of him doing it. He is charged with what seem like fair charges — one of which, as I think I said, was "concealment of an object of cultural heritage". But there's a mistrial, because the jury can't reach a verdict. Apparently, some were swayed by the defence that the charges were too harsh. And by the idea that he was hardly some kind of art-thief mastermind. As one of his lawyers put it, quote: "[he] wasn't in ninja clothing sneaking around the museum. He was a drunk kid in a bright green ugly Christmas sweater." Unquote. So this is not what Chinese authorities wanted. They wanted him to be severely punished. But that's the U.S. justice system for you, is it? You win some — you lose thumb.

[Music: Indie rock]

Part three: Opioid overdoses, united Ireland

Italy rape decision

JD: Last month, we told you the story of a rape sentence that shook Italy to its core. Two men had been acquitted of rape because the judges — who happened to be three women — ruled that the victim's story was not credible. They said she was too unattractive and masculine to have been attacked. The ruling was made in 2017, but released to the public this year, because Italy's highest court ordered a re-trial. This week, that Supreme Court of Cassation overturned the decision, saying the appearance of a sexual assault survivor is "wholly irrelevant" in sexual misconduct trials. Luisa Rizzitelli was one of activists who took to the streets in March, in protest of the ruling. From our archives, here she is speaking to Carol about why the case struck a nerve.

SOUNDCLIP

LUISA RIZZITELLI: These three judge say it's not possible that she was raped. There is no connection, and no possibility for us to understand how they can write something so unbelievable. Because I want to say that rape does not satisfy a desire for pleasure, but it is an abominable hatred and contempt for the victim. It does not depend on how feminine you are, but on the hatred within the rapist is something that has no connection, no logical connection. It’s a misogynist the way to think and to talk about the case.

CO: And the judges said that she was too masculine to be raped.

LR: Yes, too masculine, and also the young girl wanted to be raped. Something absurd I can say.

CO: But what do you make of the fact that the three judges who made this ruling were women?

LR: This made me and all the feminists here in Italy very, very sad. We know that in Italy we have a very difficult moment now because we think that women's rights are under attack. But we cannot imagine that three judges really in the high-level of person, women can say something like that. It's very bad for us to think that maybe also some judge had internalized machismo. It’s really bad news for us.

CO: What do you mean by that when you say internalized machismo?

LR: Well, I think that Italy is that the place of the Vatican as you know. When the women cannot understand it, cannot support another women, doing the same thing that machismo do. We think that there is a much more internalized in themselves. And it’s a very bad story, but is it an old story we live in Italy. We are not surprised about it.

JD: That was Italian protest organiser, Luisa Rizzitelli, speaking to "As It Happens" back in March this year.

[Music: Piano]

Mini update: Louisiana fires

JD: And just a quick update on a story we brought you earlier this week involving a string of fires at three black Baptist churches in the state of Louisiana. Today, officials announced that they have arrested and charged a 21-year-old man in connection to those fires. The suspect is white. He is the son of a sheriff's deputy. His father works in the same parish where the fires took place. Officials continue to investigate, but they caution that it is too early to know whether the crimes were racially or religiously motivated.

[Music: Piano]

Opioid overdoses

Guest: Sarah Blyth

JD: It's meant to be used as a medication for anxiety. But now, a prescription sedative is being cut with heroin and fentanyl — and sold on the streets. And the result has been dozens of drug overdoses in Vancouver in the last few weeks. Overdoses so severe that naloxone — the overdose antidote for opioids — doesn't always work. Sarah Blyth has experienced how dangerous these overdoses are. She is the founder of the Overdose Prevention Society. We reached Ms. Blyth in Vancouver.

CO: Ms. Blyth, can you just describe the first time you saw someone who had taken this new street drug?

SARAH BLYTH: Well, actually, the time that I realized what situation we were in there were three overdoses. And we realized that with the Narcan, most of them were getting up. And we were just wondering what was going on. And normally you know you get some sense of it, but it just sort of came on all at once that a lot of the drugs that people were getting in the streets, and then bringing into the overdose prevention sites, were not responding to Narcan.

CO: What did you think you were dealing with? Did you realize it was something new?

SB: Yeah, I mean we're always seeing new things happening in the drugs. The drugs are definitely contaminated with anything that you can imagine at this point — even pig de-wormer and rat poisoning. And even cannabinoids — synthetic cannabinoids, which people are reacting to in all different ways. But this was new because usually people just respond to the Narcan, and maybe they're having some other symptoms, but they're not so severe. Like people were still asleep, or pretty unconscious after they've had a number of Narcan and they're doing okay. But then they're just still pretty semi-unconscious. And so it's shocking because you don't know what you're dealing with until you know, until you get the test done to find out what's out there.

CO: And have there been any fatalities?

SB: I don't know? Never here, but you know I don't know. People are dying, and there was a few people who died last weekend that we knew. So I don't know if it's people dying of benzos and fentanyl, but I know that you know this could easily be lethal. And it's very hard to deal with both for the person who's overdosing and the people who are the frontline workers, paramedics, us the overdose prevention sites. And it's just you know a bigger picture of how you know the drugs are really contaminated with everything under the sun. And it's really all about the drug dealers making money. They just put whatever they can in there, and you know sell it to people. And it can kill people.

CO: What have you learned now about this drug? What are you dealing with here?

SB: It's an analogue of a benzo, which it just keeps people semi-conscious after they've had an overdose. And people are saying that they're losing time. So you know they don't really know what's happened for the past few hours.

CO: Each time you have a new version of this, something new that comes into the system that you're dealing with it. And then you have to figure out what it is and how to deal with it. And then you see something that is not responding to the antidote that you've been relying on. So how difficult is this to work within the overdose prevention society to be not able to sort of always catching up with the latest thing?

SB: Well, I mean we're the experts. There isn't anyone who understands you know overdoses like us, you know? We hire a lot of people who are drug users themselves, so they understand how these different drugs make them feel, and they're able to help them help each other and identify situations faster than probably anyone in the medical field. But it's you know obviously very, very stressful. It can be very traumatic, and it's very difficult, but it’s obviously the most basic thing that we should be doing. And it's sort of shocking that in Ontario, they're cutting some of them, because really on the frontlines, it's really the most basic way to help a person who's in an alley using alone.

CO: You’re talking about the safe injection sites that have been cut in Ontario.

SB: Yeah.

CO: We saw a report released yesterday that said that more than 10,000 Canadians have died from opioid overdoses just in the last two-and-a-half years. And so you're in the front lines of that, but the public when the public hears this, we know that this is affecting people in all areas of the society. But no one knows what to do about this. It just seems to be that we can't get on top of it. What has happen, not just have safe injection sites, but how do you how do you actually stop these kinds of overdoses from happening?

SB: Well, we need people to get a safe supply. I have a certificate in medical management, where I can give people safe medication. If I was able to do that at or overdose prevention site, where we see up to 700 people a day. I could give them something safe on site that they won't overdose from. It wouldn't be a benzo and a fentanyl. It would be something they know and I know what it is. And we can help them. We know we could get them in touch with medical professionals to get make sure that they're getting the proper mental health. There’s a lot of under-diagnosed and people who are self-medicating.

CO: What about legalizing some of the drugs?

SB: Yeah, just making sure that people have safe access. You know that they're not going to drug dealers on the street to get access to something that's going to kill them.

CO: Ms. Blyth, I really appreciate speaking with you. Thank you. I'm sorry about this crisis that you're dealing with, but thank you.

SB: Okay, thank you. Have a great day.

CO: Bye-bye.

JD: Sarah Blyth is the founder of Overdose Prevention Society. We reached her in Vancouver.

[Music: Ambient]

Joan Jones poem

JD: Joan Jones may have stayed away from the spotlight. But that doesn't mean people didn't see her. Tributes have been pouring in for the Halifax activist, who is being remembered as one of the key players in Nova Scotia's civil rights movement. Ms. Jones died last week at the age of 79, and Carol spoke with her son, Augy Jones, about her life and her legacy. Now, George Elliot Clarke, the former Canadian Parliamentary Poet Laureate — and a longtime friend of Ms. Jones — has dedicated a poem to her. Here he is reading it for the CBC, before he boarded a plane in Halifax.

SOUNDCLIP

GEORGE ELLIOT CLARKE: For Joan Jones, sanctified and righteous, underprivileged was our blackness until you enacted the pinnacle symbol Africandias, Angela Davis, elegantly, bony, Afro goddess of war. Minerva, our muse, iconic, iconoclast to refuse silence, disquislings, obsequious was thy mandate. Rather Vesuvius, volcanic cigarettes and eyes ablaze. Words smoking and triumphant power plays appalling. All the pallid parliaments unable to palate belligerence. That was Bella. That was you. Beautiful, encouraging, courage, rage, pivotal. Sass, that was your style. Such natural chic and Buffalo Stance Panther rhetoric, loud spunk, or spite yet, soulful attitude. Militancy was your beatitude in strutting stride, but strident your laughter with smoke for halo spice trailing after — likely curry. Black leather, serious down-to-earth, and denim. Mysterious in mood. Your smile was eloquent — even when you frowned, cussed, or yelled. In your heaven, God welcomes pushback, protest, and doesn't mind changing his mind. If debate wasn't there, it not be paradise anyway. But boring. And that's not your, or God's way.

JD: Canadian poet and playwright George Elliot Clarke, reading a poem dedicated to Halifax civil rights activist Joan Jones. Ms. Jones died last week. She was 79 years old.

[Music: Ambient]

MB taxes

JD: It's April. And I think we can all agree that the worst part of April is — and this is going to raise some of your heart rates — but taxes. Now, I dislike filing my taxes as much as the next person. And in my darkest moments, perhaps I've briefly fantasized about just not bothering. But one Manitoba couple has gone way past fantasizing. For the past decade, Ed and Charlotte Wiens have been withholding a part of their taxes. They're not lazy, and they're not trying to get away with anything. The Wienses are conscientious objectors to war, and they refuse to pay the taxes that go to the military. However, that is starting to get trickier for them. Ernie Wiens spoke to Ismaila Alfa, host of Winnipeg's "Up to Speed," yesterday.

SOUNDCLIP

ERNIE WIENS: Fundamentally, it stems from our faith, our understanding of the message of the nonviolent Jesus. It has to do with the horrors of war, the destruction of people's lives, and when you think of Canada's what 30 billion dollar military budget. And we sometimes think you know what if even a portion of that were used to spend on peace building work, relief work, foreign aid, education, spending it on making life better for the children of the world.

ISMAILA ALFA: I've been doing tagging my own taxes… well not my own, but if we all do our taxes. And my experience has been that when the CRA has determined that you are to pay them a certain amount, that's the amount that they will work really hard to get whether they have to penalize you or anything like that. What's the response been from the CRA to you?

EW: The upshot, finally after all these years, is that they are now going after my Canada Pension, and withholding that. So that has been the last response from them.

IA: Will that have any impact on whether you do this moving forward?

EW: We are still committed to doing this going forward. We feel this is a very important cause. And continue to do this.

IA: What if the CRA decides to penalize you further?

EW: That is a good question, and that is the risk we take. We like to think they are reasonable people. And we like to think that there is some respect for our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. And so that they would not do some of the harsher things that they claim they might do.

IA: Harsher things like jail time as mentioned when there's talk about penalizing people for tax issues, isn't there?

EW: Yes, that is that is true. That is mentioned. That has never been mentioned to us directly. But yeah, as I say, that is a risk we take. We hope it doesn't come to that.

JD: That was Ernie Wiens, speaking to CBC Winnipeg's "Up to Speed" program, about why he and his wife won't pay the part of their taxes that goes to the military.

[Music: Sombre]

United Ireland

Guest: Mary Lou McDonald

JD: For more than a century, Sinn Fein has been pushing for a united Ireland. Now, because of Brexit, the party's leaders say their hope for one nation on the island is inching closer to reality. For months, of course, British Prime Minister Theresa May has been trying — and failing — to pass a withdrawal agreement from the European Union. The main sticking point is the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Last night, the EU gave Prime Minister May six more months before Britain crashes out of the union. MPs, however, are deadlocked. And so the prospect of a hard Irish border and the violence it might provoke still very much looms. Mary Lou McDonald is the president of Sinn Fein. We reached her in Dublin.

CO: Ms. McDonald, what's the case you're making for a referendum on Irish reunification?

MARY LOU MCDONALD: Well, the case that we have made always is to partition our island was to deny our democratic entitlement to self-determination and to full the freedom. We have a partitioned Ireland and a border on our islands because of the colonial retreat by the British in the 1920s. And partition divided our people, divided our country.

CO: Can I just ask why do you think this is a good time? Why do you think this is the right time to make a bid for a referendum on Irish unification?

MLM: Which brings us to the issue of Brexit. As you know, Brexit was a contrivance by the British Tories. And a vote was taken — people in the north of Ireland had a vote in that referendum. They voted to remain within the European Union. However, the vote, particularly in England, was to leave. And so the Democratic decision of the people of the North of Ireland was essentially set aside. The truth is that Brexit is incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement. It poses a real and present threat and disruption to our stability. It certainly has the capacity to undermine our economic strength. And so the Brexit debate has caused the issue of Irish partition of the border on our island to loom front and centre. The logical destination for any long-term solution is to say well look, instead of trying to mediate or message gate the border, the most sustainable solution is to democratically and peacefully remove the border.

CO: A very strong move in Westminster among those members of the DUP, who would like Brexit to happen who are opposing this. So what leads you to believe that you have the support, principally in Northern Ireland, for moving ahead with a referendum? Because you have to be able to demonstrate the majority of people would like to put this to a vote, right? So what evidence do you have of that?

MLM: Of course, and we have to accept and not just accept, but absolutely respect the fact that unionists will argue for — will campaign for. And will vote for maintaining the union with Britain. I accept that entirely. I also accept that we have a job of work of persuasion and preparation to bring us into the holding of a referendum, and then to move beyond that into a new Ireland partition. And the existence of the northern state is premised on the notion of an inbuilt perpetual Unionist majority. The last two elections to the assembly in Westminster, unionism, in fact, lost that electoral majority. Politics in Ireland is changing, demographics in Ireland are changing. It is anticipated that by 2022 or thereabouts, there will be a nationalist majority. So the population changes, but more importantly, the electoral, and most importantly, the political changes on the island certainly are indicators that the direction of traffic is in favour of ending partition.

CO: But now you know far better than I that things are very delicate in Ireland. And the whole reason why this Brexit issue is so difficult to resolve is because of those who are trying to protect the possibility of the Good Friday Agreement falling apart, and the consequences of that. So are you not concerned that by introducing this idea, that you are yourself upsetting an apple cart? That this is going to create tensions within a very, very fragile system?

MLM: No, I don't accept that. I work from the agreed rulebook that is the Good Friday Agreement. And the Good Friday Agreement explicitly and implicitly recognizes the competing political identities and traditions. And also the competing political ambitions. And I don't accept the argument that for Nationalists or Republicans to talk about Irish unity that that's destabilising. But for those that want the union to talk about maintaining the union isn't destabilising. I think both political aspirations have a perfect and legitimate right to express those aspirations. And I have to tell you that it causes a considerable annoyance to people who wish to have a united Ireland to be incessantly told that they are not to speak about that because it will be, quote/unquote, “unstabilizing”. That's despite the Good Friday agreement that you still can't say out loud that you wish to have a united Ireland.

CO: But on the issue of who gets to decide, it's Britain isn't it that decides whether or not you can hold a referendum at all. And right now, we're seeing Theresa May needs the DUP — needs the unionists from Northern Ireland in order to prop herself up. So what support you possibly have in Westminster for this bid?

MLM: Well, we have put it to Mrs. May repeatedly each time I speak with her, I put it to her that she has to start the preparations for constitutional change. I remind her of the provisions and obligations of the Good Friday Agreement, and I ask her that precise question to set out for us in clear terms what the British government regards as the necessary threshold for the calling and holding of a unity referendum. She has thus far not answered that question. I mean ultimately it will be for the government in Dublin to also prepare for Irish reunification, and to protect a vital and Irish national interest.

CO: All right. We will leave it there. Ms. McDonald, thank you for your time.

MLM: Thank you so much.

CO: Goodnight.

MLM: Goodnight.

JD: Mary Lou McDonald is the president of Sinn Fein. We reached her in Dublin.

[Music: World music]

Cowbell decision

JD: When I first moved into this studio to co-host "As It Happens", I was excited. Seemed like a great opportunity. Plus, seemed like a terrific location, right? Close to amenities like the bathroom, the vending machine, the Michael Enright. But then I started to notice a few problems. Like: there are microphones in here — built-in. When you turn them on, people can hear everything you say. Also, every single night it's the same song, a theme song at the exact same time. I just wish there'd been some way of knowing what I was getting into. Well, there’s a Bavarian couple knows the feeling. In 2014, they moved into a house in the Bavarian village of Holzkirchen, next door to a dairy farm. And then they started to notice some issues no one who lives next door to cows could have imagined. Like: the smell of cow poop. Insects that hang around cow poop and cows. And, worst of all, the constant clanging...of cowbells. And so the farmer agreed to restrict her cows to parts of the meadow far from her neighbours' house. Not good enough. Cowbells still too loud. So the couple sued their neighbour. Through Lawsuits plural: one each. Well, thus far, the German justice system has not been sympathetic. Both lawsuits failed. So the husband took his to a higher court. Yesterday, that court threw his case out. Seems like, first, the judges don't think the cowbells are that loud. And second, they do think cowbells are a Bavarian tradition worth preserving. Also, maybe, third, I'm sensing they think people who move in next to cows should expect cow-related sounds. Even though, for this couple, the phrase "dairy farm"...didn't ring a bell.

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April 11, 2019 episode transcript

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