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The AIH Transcript for April 8, 2019

Hosts: Carol Off and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

CAROL OFF: Hello I'm Carol Off.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglas. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

CO: Flight risks. A warlord launches airstrikes on the Tripoli airport -- and a former U.S. envoy warns Libya could soon be in a full-blown civil war.

JD: A put-down they won't put up with. A British woman faces charges in Dubai that could land her in prison for two years, because on Facebook she called her ex-husband's new wife a "horse."

CO: Not their strongest suit. A Jean Chretien advisor tells us that if Justin Trudeau wants to change the channel on SNC -- threatening a libel lawsuit against the opposition leader is not the way to do it.

JD: Skeleton key. The history books say Casimir Pulaski was a Revolutionary War hero who saved George Washington's life -- now, research on the Polish general's bones shows he was intersex, or a woman.

CO: A climb against nature. Dogs are great at lots of things, but scaling cliffs is not one of them -- which is why it's lucky that two humans came along to rescue a dog who got stuck.

JD: And the diamond in the extremely rough. A Connecticut town gets its 15-minutes of flame when some locals decide to douse a wet baseball field in gasoline and set it on fire. As It Happens. The Monday Edition. Radio that reminds them: when your field's throwing heat, your pitcher can't.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Libya clashes

Libya clashes

Guest: Jonathan Winer

JD: Tripoli is a city under siege tonight. The Libyan capital was supposed to be preparing for internationally backed meetings to encourage cooperation between the country's well-armed factions. But this afternoon the leader of one of those factions launched airstrikes against Tripoli's only functioning airport. His name is General Khalifa Haftar. And on Thursday he ordered his troops to take the city by force. Jonathan Winer knows Khalifa Haftar from his time as the United States Special Envoy to Libya. We reached Mr. Winer in Washington D.C.

CO: Mr. Winer how volatile do you think the situation in the Libyan capital is right now?

JONATHAN WINER: Well it's highly volatile. The question will be whether this is a short term move by General Haftar to probe and establish his credibility -- or whether this begins a broader civil war with a siege of Tripoli of the kind General Haftar did for three years in Benghazi, and for two years in Derna.

CO: So who is General Haftar? And what's he up to?

JW: General Haftar helped overthrow King Idris in 1969 with Gaddafi. He was Gaddafi's chief general. For a while (he) was captured in Chad. Gaddafi then abandoned him. He was picked up by the CIA -- moved to the United States in the Reagan administration. (He) Was part of some efforts to overthrow Gaddafi. (He) Spent decades then ignored, isolated, and forgotten in Northern Virginia. (He) Came back after the revolution -- expected to be on top and in charge, wasn't. Declared a coup in February of 2014 on television like Gaddafi had done. Nobody paid any attention. Then he went east -- found some sponsors and some support from Egypt, from the Saudis, from the Emiratis. And using that support, (he) built his credibility with his three year campaign in Benghazi -- one of the most important cities in Libya.

CO: So what is he up to right now?

JW: Oh he wants to reverse the arc of history. So all those years that he was in exile and alone -- that's all erased. And he was him instead of Gaddafi. At 75 he achieves that -- he's the military leader of the whole country for the rest of his life. He makes his family rich -- maybe his son succeed. And that's his vision I believe.

CO: Who is behind -- who is backing General Haftar at this point?

JW: The Russians have provided him a lot of money over the last few years -- billions of dollars worth of money and fake currency which he's not had to be accountable for to anybody. And that's a lot of the bill patronage networks. He got some -- according to the U.N. experts reports -- some planes from Egypt, he got some vehicles from the Emirates back in 2016. It's not clear to me what he's gotten since. But what is clear to me is that he basically is doing what he's doing pretty much on his own. He may have gotten acquiescence from one or more other countries -- that's interesting -- maybe Russia, maybe some other ones. But this is his agenda.

CO: What role is France playing?

JW: I think the French have supported Haftar in his taking of Benghazi. They supported him in legitimizing him as a major player -- cozied up to him. Whether it's more than that, I doubt.

CO: And what role is the United States playing?

JW: The United States has told Haftar to cut it out -- to stop. And when I was in the government, the United States did not provide any support to Haftar. We made it very clear that the condition for us to provide support is that he part of a legitimate government and not be his own independent force. When I met with him I made that very clear -- try to get him to compromise and deal. Thought I made some progress, but clearly not enough.

CO: In those encounters you had with Haftar, did he make it quite clear that he sees himself as someone who should be in charge of Libya?

JW: Yes -- he made it clear that Libya's politicians from his point of view are all worthless and there shouldn't be any politicians. The country should be run by the military until Libya was mature enough for democracy. He would appoint people. The civilians could run civilian things like healthcare and education. And he would make all the decisions.

CO: People might forget that Canada played an important role in that NATO led campaign in 2011 -- the overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi. People said at that time in this country -- in your country -- that after the war was over, after Muammar Gaddafi was toppled, that Libya would become exactly this -- it will become a failed state if it wasn't support, if you didn't get on the ground and start to rebuild that country. Who's responsible for the state that Libya is in as it proceeds possibly through a civil war?

JW: First, every country with an interest in Libya tried to provide assistance -- and the Libyans systematically rejected it -- didn't want it, wouldn't accept it. So the Libyans bear the most responsibility more than any foreign country. Second, the countries that sponsored various forces in Libya and maybe thought they could control those forces or shape those forces -- all bear some responsibility for doing that. If the international community is all lined up and tell Libyans you have to deal with one another -- they'll be left with very little option other than to deal with one another. If by contrast you're patron and you have clients, Libyans will play you off. And that was the constant risk and the constant fear when I was doing my work. We succeeded in getting a government of national accord in place because every country -- whether the ones who supported the Gaddafi-ets or the Islamists, the east or the west -- the haves or the have nots -- all said that you have got to do this, you have got to put your prejudices aside and deal. The problem was after that deal was done -- people said well maybe we need to get just a little more for our side... just a little more.

CO: When you consider the possibility of civil war -- we are now seeing so many refugees coming through Libya. Refugees who are stuck there. And this is an international crisis. At some point doesn't the international community have to say look we need to step in, we have to play a larger role whether the warlords want us to or not.

JW: Yeah -- the problem is is that Russia has supported Haftar, and it's a tremendous opportunity for Russia to get a foothold in North Africa. And if he wins -- Russia comes out looking great. And if he loses and is just screwing everything up -- it's harder on Europe, and Russia is comparatively strengthened. So getting international unity is going to be very important. As long as the Russians keep providing counterfeit dinars, the Haftar uses what he wants -- you got a risk of the whole country fragmenting. And I'm very concerned about that. I don't know how committed they are to that. Time will tell. It required constant communication when I was in the government -- people working nonstop to try and get interests aligned. That's very very difficult -- it's impossible if people have their clients.

CO: Mr. Winer we will leave it there. We'll be following this closely. I appreciate you speaking with us tonight. Thank you.

JW: Sure. Bye bye.

JD: Jonathan Winer is the former United States Special Envoy to Libya. We reached Mr. Winer in Washington D.C.

[Music]

Trudeau libel threat

Guest: Peter Donolo

JD: Once again, today the SNC-Lavalin affair dominated Question Period. And you can thank two of the very people who would love everyone to stop talking about it: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his lawyer. The prime minister has threatened a libel suit against opposition leader, Andrew Scheer, because he says Mr. Scheer falsely suggested that the PM had actually interfered in the criminal prosecution against SNC. Mr. Scheer's response? Bring it on. Here's his exchange with House Leader Bardish Chagger.

SOUNDCLIP

ANDREW SCHEER: Mr. Speaker for months now the prime minister has done everything he can to avoid accountability in his handling of the SNC-Lavalin corruption scandal. Now he's indicated that he intends to sue me -- to stop my criticisms of his government's actions. So can the government inform the House on what date will these court proceedings commence?

[Applause]

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader.

BARDISH CHAGGER: Mr. Speaker these Conservatives, and frankly their leader, have a history of making untrue and defamatory statements for political gains. In response to a lawyer's letter in December, the Conservative leader deleted tweets that were defamatory to the Minister of Innovation. We put him on notice again because there are consequences for making false statements. But here is a question that Canadians want to know from the leader of the official opposition: has he deleted tweets since he received that notice? Thank you Mr. Speaker.

JD: Liberal House Leader Bardish Chagger responding to Andrew Scheer today. Peter Donolo served as director of communications for former Prime Minister Jean Chretien. He is now the Vice Chair with Hill and Knowlton Strategies. We reached Mr. Donolo in Toronto.

CO: Peter I'm sure the Liberals would love to put this SNC-Lavalin affair behind them --has this legal action helped?

PETER DONOLO: No, it prolongs it. I mean it's one of these -- it has left me scratching my head. I'm sure a lot of other people, the affair was kind of petering out and they've kind of extended it by several days. It sounds like it was very raucous in the House of Commons. And it kind of violates one of the first rules of politics in my view -- that being 'the rule of holes' as I call it: when you're in one...stop digging.

CO: But would there be any benefit to Mr. Trudeau to do this? I mean could it possibly prevent Mr. Scheer or anybody else from continuing to say these statements that they say are slanderous and libelous or is it effective in any way at all?

PD: I don't think it's particularly effective when political leaders resort to the courts you know as a politics by another means. There's no question that Andrew Scheer's rhetoric has been overheated. I mean from the very first day he jumped the shark when he talked about -- saying that the Prime Minister should resign. I think everyone saw that as a ridiculous overreach. Meanwhile, by the same token, the government was too busy shooting itself in its own foot you know at different stages of this. I think the Liberals are probably tired of being on the receiving end of a tonne of attacks and it's natural to want to kind of lash out. I don't think it's necessarily strategic.

CO: But now when you mentioned the hyperbole and exaggeration -- this is what is in this notice of possible suit which is that he accuses him of lying, of covering up, he's asked the RCMP to investigate, he says this is corruption on top of corruption on top of corruption. Is it possible that there are ways of trying to lower the temperature -- to have Mr. Scheer stop being so over the top about this?

PD: I mean this may have been an effort to chill him. If they were going to do that, it would have made more sense rather than sending him a copy and not releasing it to the media. Do what Stephen Harper did in the past -- when he threatened a lawsuit against Stephane Dion -- or what Kathleen Wynne did here in Ontario with Patrick Brown which is not just send a letter, but actually tell the world you sent a letter and release the letter, and put them under the frosty glare. I think even then that would have been a mistake. But if they had done that at least it would have happened a week ago as opposed to now and we wouldn't be you know in week number whatever this is -- 18 -- of Canada held hostage.

CO: You mentioned these two other examples of threatening lawsuits -- but there's one other one: Jean Chretien in 1998 -- he threatened to sue Reform Party leader Preston Manning.

PD: That's right. And just a threat in the House set Preston Manning up -- so there you go.

CO: So it worked. I mean this could be a useful tool in the toolbox of a politician.

PD: Again we forget what that one was even about -- I think it was about a Senate appointment. So it wasn't the final straw of a long drawn out controversy that had the government on the ropes for three months. Earlier in this whole kind of affair they were trying to smear the reputation of Jody Wilson-Raybould -- and that backfired on them every time. It was Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner -- the plan would blow up right in their faces. This time -- I don't think it is blown up, but it has extended it unnecessarily for them. Their number one priority ought to be changing the channel. There are plenty of other controversies that would wedge in the government's favour and that would cause havoc in the Conservative Party -- and they should be moving on those.

CO: You worked very closely with Justin Trudeau in the 2015 election -- getting him ready for the debates. So you got to see how he was, what kind of man he was, how he responded to very tense situations. What do you make of how he's reacting to this -- do you think that he is perhaps thin skinned?

PD: There's been a lot of adulation directed his way ever since the 2015 election when he defied expectations and won a majority government. Absolutely, the kind of nasty-personal-unrelenting attacks that he's come under in this whole affair have to be unnerving. You know it's unprecedented the body count in this controversy -- two cabinet ministers gone, Clerk of the Privy Council, his top advisor. So he'd be less than human if he wasn't unnerved by this. Whether or not he's lost his mojo -- I don't know. I think it's too early to tell. We saw some examples in the last couple of weeks you know with the heckler at a Liberal fund raising event. He didn't handle that very well. But you know he's got the best EQ of any politician I've ever worked with, and I've worked with some of the great leaders in Canada who have all had strengths but he's got a particular strength. And I hope he finds his voice again. I worry that he's been very scripted in the way he's handled it -- and sometimes that scripting has been incongruous with the kind of tone he should have had. You know I think he's a phenomenal politician but he needs to get his mojo back.

CO: You know you mentioned how this is a chance to change the channel. There have been many opportunities. Everyone thought it was over and then it would flare up like some grass fire once again. And I think it was Campbell Clark in the Globe and Mail said today that it has gotten to the point where Mr. Scheer himself must have wondered why this is still going on. He was ready to put it out. Everybody was ready to move on. And it keeps going on. I mean a lot of Canadians are saying, like why can't they get a grip on this?

PD: Well I just think this is so compelling because in here there's everything. There's something for everyone to hate. You've got a Quebec company -- you know the reputations of Quebec companies and government largesse. You know he was the champion of both feminism and Indigenous reconciliation. And yet the two most prominent female ministers in his cabinet are out the door including the first ever Indigenous justice minister. And it went on for some weeks. But now I think it became clear with Jody Wilson-Raybould's telephone conversation transcript last week that there's no more news to come from her, there's no more new information that she's put on the table, she said as much yourself -- there's no more new facts. So why create new facts on the other side when your accusers aren't providing any?

CO: We will leave it there. Peter I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you.

PD: Thanks Carol.

JD: Peter Donolo is the Vice Chair with Hill and Knowlton Strategies, and Jean Chretien's former communications director. We reached him in Toronto.

[Music]

Dog rescue

Guest: Jared Smith

JD: When you're out climbing in the west Kootenays of British Columbia you might expect -- and should expect -- to see some wildlife: bald eagles, perhaps mountain goats, and if you're lucky or unlucky -- I guess depending on your proximity -- maybe a cougar. But Jared Smith and Hannah Stephan saw a more surprising and yet more domesticated animal last week as they scaled a rocky cliff face near Castelgar, British Columbia. We reached Jared Smith in Rossland, British Columbia.

CO: Jared when you were scaling brilliant bluffs cliff -- what did Hannah say she was seeing at the top of this cliff?

JARED SMITH: Yeah we just switched over from me lead climbing to her lead climbing. She got maybe about halfway through the pitch and then she yells down, there's a dog! And I wasn't like 100 percent sure what she meant. I looked down at the base and they were like dogs playing. I'm like oh okay whatever like that's cool -- there's a dog -- like let's keep going, let's get out of here. And then she's like, no -- there's a dog. And there was a bit of confusion. I didn't really understand what she was talking about. So I just told her to keep climbing and then eventually she got to the top. It was my turn to climb and then I'm like, oh there's a dog on the cliff.

CO: Where was it? Can you describe exactly where this dog was.

JS: It was on like a little bit of a cliff ledge -- probably about 200 metres off the ground.

CO: And is it some place where the dog would not be able to get away from?

JS: It probably could have explored around that little cliff band but it couldn't have made its way up any further and it couldn't have gone down any further.

CO: So this was a female dog. How was she?

JS: Definitely no energy. Very tired, and very very skinny like you could see every rib --you could see the hip bones and her spine and stuff.

CO: How did she respond when she saw you?

JS: So she didn't really acknowledge me too much. But then I had a bit of a clif bar in my back-pack so I took out the clif bar and gave her a few small pieces just to kind of show her that I was friendly. And then after that she kind of was like okay with me. I started petting her -- but you could tell she didn't have any extra energy to spare. She stayed laying down, her tail wasn't wagging or anything.

CO: So was there a tag? Could you see any indication of who might be the owner?

JS: So there is no actual metal tag. But there was a phone number written in permanent marker on the collar that I was able to decipher and call the owner.

CO: And what did the owner say when you called?

JS: So I pretty much call them like, hi this might be a weird question, but are you missing a dog? The owner on the other line was like really kind of saying like yeah. Like, oh well like I found her -- she's alive. Then as soon as I said that she started crying on the phone -- like just so happy that someone found her and she's alive.

CO: How long had the dog been missing?

JS: So it was gone for about three weeks. And it went through some pretty cold weather in those three weeks.

CO: Poor thing. So how did you manage to get the dog off the cliff?

JS: Well it took a bit of a trial and error. At first I tried like cradling it in my arms but if she squirmed at the wrong area, she would have just fell out of my hands and there would have been nothing stopping her.

CO: How big was the dog?

JS: I would say probably around like 30-40 pounds.

CO: And if you were to climb with her -- you were holding onto a rope, right? You're on the side of a cliff climbing so you'd have to carry her while you're climbing with a rope.

JS: Yeah. I was all tied in -- like we were being safe. Hannah had me on belay at the top of the cliff. And then Hannah from the top was looking down and she reminded me about my Ikea bag that I use as a rope bag. Just one of those like big blue tote bags. She's like Jared put her in the Ikea bag. So eventually I tied a knot a little above me in the rope so I could clip her in to the rope and I can kind of use both my hands. But then the problem with the Ikea bag is it's really old, not the best condition Ikea bag. So you could see her nails poking through the bottom of the bag and I was scared that the whole bottom of the bag was going to rip right out because they're not designed to carry a 40 pound dog.

CO: So how long did it take you to get her to safety?

JS: Maybe like 10 minutes. But it was more or less me just supporting the bag with one hand, climbing with the other, and I would inch the bag up a little bit -- get Hannah to kind of hold the weight on the rope and we kind of just inched our way up to the top.

CO: Okay so you got her to safety. And then tell us how you managed to have the reunion with the owner.

JS: When I called her on the phone she asked like where I was I'm like oh I'm climbing the Brilliant bluff -- like we're just past the peak. And then she ended up being right at the peak kind of saying her final goodbyes to the dog. There wasn't much hope that she would be found alive. So as we were climbing up she was kind of there waiting for us. And then when we finally got the dog up to a little more of a level ground I guess the dog could hear her kind of crying and got super excited and jumped out of the bag and ran to her like all the way.

CO: Wow.

JS: She found the energy then.

CO: I mean it had been three weeks -- so the owner had gone up to the top to say goodbye. She figured she was never going to see her dog again.

JS: Yeah it was either -- what she was telling me is either someone in her family, friend, or herself would come up every day looking for the dog -- just seeing if maybe it kind of turned up and it's waiting at the top for it.

CO: Did she tell you how the dog came to be lost?

JS: Yeah she was saying that they were out hiking and there was one of the goats that were on the top of the mountain and I think it chased the goat a bit. And unfortunately the goats are a little more maneuverable on mountains than dogs, so I have a feeling it maybe jumped down something that it couldn't jump back up.

CO: Wow. And after nothing to eat and cold nights and no water -- I presume -- three weeks and that dog was -- well if you hadn't found her, I mean probably not much longer she could have lasted up there.

JS: No. And especially we got some nasty weather in after.

CO: Jared I really appreciate that you were there and you got that dog safely and thank you for talking to us.

JS: Oh no problem. I'm just glad I was there to help and had everything I needed to get the dog out there safely.

CO: Thanks so much Jared. Bye.

JS: No problem. Bye.

JD: Jared Smith and his climbing partner, Hannah Stephan, rescued a dog from the side of a cliff in B.C.'s west Kootenays mountains last week. We reached Mr. Smith in Rossland, British Columbia.

[Music]

Setting the field on fire

JD: It was not Rudy Marconi's fault. But as the representative of the municipal government of Ridgefield, Connecticut, it did fall to him to try to explain it. He was diplomatic. But he said a couple of things that are telling -- for instance, explaining that one person had done it before. And he said, quote, "Unfortunately it was not a very good idea. In theory it sounded plausible, I guess, to those who participated." Okay, well, first: we know when someone proposes something utterly ridiculous they always say, "I've done it before." And when that ridiculous thing is an absolute disaster they always say, "Weird, it always worked when I did it." And we also know they never did it. Second: yes, it must have seemed plausible but unfortunately, no, it was not a very good idea to douse a local high school baseball field in gasoline and set it on fire. On Saturday morning, the Ridgefield Tigers were scheduled to play on that field. But it was wet -- and somehow, out of all the possible options, the adults chose to do a thing that one person claimed to have done before. To make the field nice and dry, they poured gasoline all over it -- 90 litres, which is 24 gallons -- and then they lit it. So instead of baseball players, first responders showed up and then experts had to remove the whole top layer of contaminated dirt. The whole debacle will cost at least 50,000 dollars to fix. And that local politician Mr. Marconi had some words of warning for his townsfolk -- and, really, for all of us, quote "What's important to remember out of this is that if something doesn't seem right or doesn't look right, in all likelihood, it isn't right."

[Music]

Part 2: Revolutionary war hero Casimir Pulaski was likely intersex, researchers say

Dubai arrest

Guest: Radha Stirling

JD: A British woman is facing two years in prison in the United Arab Emirates for insulting her ex-husband's new wife on Facebook. Laleh Shahravesh was arrested last month when she traveled from London to Dubai with her teenage daughter to attend her ex-husband's funeral. She was stunned when police met her at the airport and took her in for questioning. She had made the comments about the new wife several years ago while living in Britain. Well now she is out of detention, staying in Dubai, awaiting a court date. Her daughter, Paris, is back in Britain living with relatives. Radha Stirling is representing Ms. Shahravesh. She heads the advocacy group Detained In Dubai. We reached Ms. Stirling in Marbella, Spain.

CO: What exactly did Laleh Shahravesh say that prompted her arrest in Dubai?

RADHA STIRLING: She found out that her husband was suddenly married. And she wasn't forewarned -- and she saw it in a social media post on Facebook. And she responded, lashed out I suppose -- which she regrets -- but she said, you idiot you married a horse.

CO: That's it?

RS: That's absolutely it. And when I first heard the story, I thought that she'd said something worse -- and when I investigated more, I thought oh my gosh that's all she said. She said horse. And this is certainly by no way a crime in western countries. Nothing that you could face jail for. So it's an absolute shock. I think what was most shocking for her is that this post was made three years ago in England --not even in the UAE. And yet a case was opened against her in the UAE by the new wife who was offended by the comment and it just sat there on the police's books until the next time she visited. She visited last month with her daughter because her ex-husband had suddenly died of a heart attack at only 51. The daughter wanted to go and pay her final respects and visit his grave as it is. And she decided to do that. And they were both taken into police custody the moment that they arrived.

CO: For this comment, you married a horse you idiot?

RS: Absolutely. And that's what's shocking about the UAE's cybercrime laws is you can be arrested for the most outrageous things on Twitter or social media. For example sharing a charity online -- even sharing an Amnesty International fundraiser is against the law.

CO: But there were two statements that she made. "I hope you go under the ground you idiot. Damn you. You left me for this horse." And she said, "you married a horse you idiot." Two comments on Facebook. It's the horse comment that's got her into trouble -- not hoping her husband goes underground where he is at this point. So what had happened -- she said she lashed out, she was just angry, what led to that?

RS: What led to it is -- I mean she had returned to London, they were still married at the time and he was visiting her once a month in the UK and promising to return. Now out of the blue and unexpected to her, she received divorce papers within just a few months. She had no idea why but obviously assumed that he'd been having an affair with this woman. And then suddenly she sees a picture on Facebook of them being married. And this is after 18 years of marriage, it's after you know a child that was apparently a miracle child -- they had a lot of trouble conceiving. They've been through a lot. She still loved him. And it was just an absolute shock to the system. And you know it's completely understandable that she would say some comment at least. And you know it seems almost -- it's not even that severe, it's almost more of a joke than anything.

CO: The woman who was accused of looking like a horse was the one who made the complaint, right? So that's what led -- as soon as she arrived with her daughter -- as soon as Laleh Shahravesh arrived in Dubai for the funeral of her ex-husband, the ex-husband's wife had complained about this remark, and that's what led to her arrest.

RS: Absolutely. And when they were taken to the Dubai police station, both her and her daughter, and the police tried to reason with the complainant -- they called her and said 'you know do you want to drop the charges? This is kind of silly.' And also the British embassy apparently called the woman and pleaded with her to drop the charges. She absolutely refused to, and she's put out some comments about the reasons that she's refused to. She believes that it was just unacceptable behaviour and it should be punished to the full extent of the law. And it is really damaging to the country that they even gave her the opportunity to proceed with the prosecution given the kind of damage that causes to tourism. I mean it's not really helping to make themselves look like a modern safe tourist destination when you can be arrested for a Facebook post calling someone a horse.

CO: She is now -- I understand -- forced to stay in Dubai, waiting for this court process to play out. How is she doing?

RS: So right now she's basically waiting in a hotel, stressing out, imagining that on Thursday she's going to turn up at the court and be arrested or taken into custody -- and she may face two years in prison.

CO: And 50,000 pounds -- about 87,000 dollars in fine?

RS: 50,000 pound fine. And if you can't pay that fine and she certainly can't afford a fine like that, you would be stuck in Dubai until you did pay the fine. So for a lot of people who don't receive diplomatic intervention or don't go into the press and highlight their case -- they can be stuck there for years on things like this.

CO: The family members are saying that she doesn't have much money, her job is in jeopardy, her apartment back in England is in jeopardy, she can't afford to stay where she is. Does she have any support in the country?

RS: No she doesn't have friends, she doesn't have support. She's completely alone. She's separated from her daughter, and right after the daughter's father has died. So I mean the daughter is in absolute such distress really at the moment -- the whole family. I've been speaking to them on a daily basis and they're all in tears. It's just devastating.

CO: Can the British authorities do anything to help her?

RS: Actually Jeremy Hunt who's the Foreign Secretary in the UK has come out saying that he's providing the highest level of diplomatic intervention like he did with Matthew Hedges who was released last year. They don't usually intervene. And according to Laleh, the extent of their assistance has been to provide her with a list of lawyers. So she saw this broadcast of Jeremy Hunt saying that he's providing this diplomatic assistance and she's very keen to know what that is and to receive contact from the British government. But she hasn't received anything directly.

CO: We will leave it there. We are following this story. Ms. Stirling I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

RS: My pleasure. Thanks very much. Have a good night.

JD: Radha Stirling is the head of the advocacy group Detained In Dubai. We reached her in Marbella, Spain.

[Music]

Henry “Hank” Aaron

JD: As a baseball player, Henry "Hank" Aaron broke records. As a black baseball player, he broke boundaries. On 45 years ago today, Mr. Aaron did both -- when he hit his 715th home run, surpassing the record set by Babe Ruth in 1927. The road to that milestone was a long one for Hammerin' Hank. On and off the field, the right fielder faced racism and bigotry -- most notably in 1973, as he inched closer to breaking that record of Babe Ruth's. That year he received almost a million letters including hate mail. Letters Mr. Aaron later said changed him. As the season closed, he tied Babe Ruth's record. And the following April in Atlanta, facing pitcher Al Downing on the mound -- Hank Aaron changed history. For the record, from April the 8th of 1974, here is Vin Scully's call of that monumental homerun.

SOUNDCLIP

ANNOUNCER: Once again, a standing ovation for Henry Aaron. He means the time run at the plate now. Though we'll see what Downing does. Al at the belt -- delivers. And he is low. Ball one. And that just adds to the pressure. One ball and no strike. Aaron waiting. Fast ball...and it is a high-flying in the deep left centre field! Buster goes back to the fence...it is done! [Applause] What a marvelous moment for baseball. What a marvelous moment for Atlanta and the state of Georgia. What a marvelous moment for the country and the world -- a black man is getting a standing ovation in the Deep South for breaking a record of an all time baseball idol. For the first time in a long time, that pokerface of Aaron's shows the tremendous strain and relief of what it must have been like to live with for the past several months. It is over. At ten minutes after nine in Atlanta, Georgia, Henry Aaron has eclipsed the mark set by Babe Ruth.

JD: From 45 years ago today, that was Vin Scully calling "Hank" Aaron's record breaking 715th homerun. Hank Aaron went on to hit a total of 755 home runs over his 23 year career. And that record stood until 2007, when it was broken by Barry Bonds.

[Music]

General Pulaski intersex

Guest: Virginia Hutton Estrabrook

JD: Casimir Pulaski was a famous Polish-American general during the Revolutionary War. He has gone down in history as a hero -- and as a biological man. But according to new DNA research, General Pulaski was likely intersex -- having both male and female sex characteristics. It's even possible that the General was female. Researchers have suspected it for years based on skeletal remains but were never able to confirm. Virginia Hutton Estabrook is an assistant professor of anthropology at Georgia Southern University, and one of the researchers. We reached her in Savannah.

CO: Professor Estabrook what did you think when you first saw the pelvis of this General Pulaski when you first saw what it looked like?

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: Yeah so what I thought was, wow -- yes I totally see what is being said and why you know other people who've looked at this think that this looks very female because it does look very female.

CO: There were years of people trying to figure out if the remains that were buried were actually General Pulaski. Tell us a bit about the history of trying to figure out who he might be -- if this was really him.

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: Yeah. So the initial confusion -- a long time ago -- was that there were historical accounts of Pulaski that he was buried at sea. And there was this oral tradition in this one family that Pulaski was buried in their plantation. And so these plantation remains had been exhumed and put into this monument. But this had been met with a lot of skepticism at the time that continued through the 20th century when this monument was actually needing to be refurbished because the foundation was falling apart a little bit. And so there was this idea that they were going to take out these remains that were inside of a metal box inside of the monument -- and actually figure out you know who this was, whether this was Pulaski or not. And that's where they hit the first roadblock which was that these remains looked very female but there were other features of these remains that were consistent with Pulaski. So things like age at death, and height, and some healed injuries that were consistent with healed injuries that we've known about from Pulaski. So all of these things looked looks very Pulaski-esque except for the whole female skeleton thing happening.

CO: But eventually you were able to determine -- I guess through DNA -- that this was almost definitely General Pulaski. So was he a man or a woman?

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: So General Pulaski was a man. So this is where this sort of social science distinctions between sex and gender is actually really important because everything we know about Pulaski is like lived existence as a person boppin' through life is that he was baptized as the son of his parents and recognized as masculine all through his life. So there's no doubt that his experience was as a man. What's interesting is that the skeletal remains that we have are showing that there was clearly something else going on that he may or may not have been completely aware of -- was a factor. So Pulaski was never married. He didn't have any children. But again there's other sort of historical reasons for this -- he was an exile for a while from Poland, and you know he spent time during the American Revolution, and he died very young too -- he died at only 34 years old.

CO: And because you're only dealing with skeletal remains -- you don't have any organs or tissue -- you can't see if there was a uterus or gonads or testicles. You don't have anything of that nature. So General Pulaski presented as a man. Did people know that? Is there anything in the history that suggests he was intersex?

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: Not really. I mean what the history suggests is that -- I mean obviously to be baptized as a son he would have had to have exhibited at least male enough looking genitalia as a baby that they made that choice. He clearly had facial hair from all of the early portraits that show him with a mustache and even sort of a bit of receding hairline -- male pattern kind of baldness stuff. So I mean those features you know would have been consistent and marked him as a man during his life. I mean we do have some discussions around sort of he was fairly aloof, he didn't really have a lot of like close associates. I mean he was very popular and people admired him but he didn't necessarily have people that were close to him. But you know that's not necessarily you know diagnostic of the intersex experience but it is you know relatively consistent with the experience of a lot of people who are intersex -- that there's this sort of separation. But again we really don't know how this affected his life.

CO: We know that as today, but there is still a great deal of confusion as to how people who are intersex or transgender -- which are different things -- should live, what interventions should be if there should be any at all. It's still confusing now. So what was that like in the 1700s -- how would have General Pulaski been treated if it had been known that he was intersex?

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: At the time, the only people who were recognized as intersex -- you know at least knowledge of this has made its way down in historical record -- were people who actually showed two distinct kinds of genitalia. You know that was part of you know sort of this idea of like medical marvels at the time. So I don't think there was even a diagnosis at the time that would have necessarily described what was going on for Pulaski.

CO: Does this knowledge -- does this information -- change history at all?

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: It depends upon how you want to think about this. So at one level, it doesn't change anything -- we know about Pulaski's accomplishments and his legacy and it doesn't sort of diminish him in any way. It does potentially give us some representation of intersex individuals who have not really been represented in the historical record much before. There's lots of erasure of intersex because sort of socially and also sort of medically we didn't really understand what intersex was for so long. So you know at some level it doesn't sort of change what he did. But at another level it opens up his story to be a story that can be shared as a really relevant story to a group of people that don't necessarily find themselves well represented in the past.

CO: Very interesting story. Professor Estabrook I appreciate you telling it to us. Thank you.

VIRGINIA HUTTON ESTABROOK: Oh gosh, my pleasure. Well thank you so much for talking to me.

JD: Virginia Hutton Estabrook is an assistant professor of anthropology at Georgia Southern University. We reached her in Savannah. And we do have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Karina Gould

JD: Canadian voters and politicians are already the targets of foreign cyber interference activities. That is one of the findings in the latest report from the country's electronic spy agency, the Canadian Security Establishment. And that report goes on to say that quote, "It is very likely that Canadian voters will encounter some form of foreign cyber interference ahead of, and during, the 2019 federal election." Well that prompted some questions for Karina Gould, the federal Democratic Institutions Minister. In January, Minister Gould said that the government expected the tech giants to do more to protect Canadian elections. But she stopped short of legislating them into action. Well this morning in Ottawa reporters asked Minister Gould if that is still the plan.

SOUNDCLIP

KARINA GOULD: Yeah so the announcement that we made on January 30th, we clarified or illustrated that there were kind of three values that we were hoping that social media platforms would work with us on with regards to integrity, authenticity, and transparency on their platforms. And we have had several discussions with all of the platforms to varying degrees of success I would say in terms of how they plan to protect Canadians and our electoral process in the coming election. And we have not really seen that much progress with them. I think that the platforms feel that this is something that they should be doing on their own. And I don't have the confidence that they're disclosing everything with us. And I think that you know from experiences that we've seen around the world that there's a lot left to be desired in terms of how seriously they're taking these issues. And you know we continue to engage with them and continue to have conversations. But you know I'm not feeling great about where we are right now.

JD: Democratic Institutions Minister Karina Gould speaking to reporters this morning in Ottawa.

[Music]

Part 3: No big whoosh? A quieter airplane toilet flush may soon be on its way

Dan Robbins obit

Guest: William Lawrence Bird Jr.

JD: It was an exciting new pastime with an inspiring if sexist tagline: "Every man a Rembrandt." The pastime was paint-by-numbers -- one of the most loved and hated art trends of the 1950s. Critics may have sniffed, but those kits that allowed colour-inside-the-lines types to make their own perfect landscapes and "Last Suppers" sold by the millions. Dan Robbins was the artist who invented them. He died last week. He was 93 years old. William Lawrence Bird Jr. knew Mr. Robbins and his work quite well. He is a curator emeritus at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History, and the author of "Paint by Number: The How-To Craze that Swept the Nation." We reached Mr. Bird in Tucson.

CO: William how did you first meet Dan Robbins?

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Well I was working at the Smithsonian's Museum of American History in 1995 and I got a call one day from an archivist who said we have this paint by number collection and we'd like you to take a look at. And the first call was to Dan -- who I was told was still living outside Chicago. So I went to go visit him and he had all these wonderful stories that helped me understand this collection a lot better. And so we just kind of took off from there -- and (I) visited over the next couple of years and made a book on his show.

CO: But you know the idea of paint-by-number is something that's considered kitsch, right? That's up there with black velvet paintings -- so how did Dan Robbins convince you that it was interesting?

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Oh he didn't have to convince me -- it is interesting. You know coming back into you know the second-hand you know estate sale market that kind of thing -- people would put really interesting prices on them. You know if you didn't know what it was you were looking at, you might think oh that's a really valuable painting. And to me, I liked the picture. And you shouldn't really have to apologize for your taste you know whether it's high-low or somewhere in between.

CO: How did Dan Robbins come up with his idea for paint-by-numbers?

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Well he had a vocational art background in Detroit where he went to school, and he heard a story about Leonardo who assigned numbered portions to his apprentices to complete canvases and frescoes and that sort of thing. And that story stuck with him. And he was working as a package designer in a paint company and they were bottling up paints and small packages to make more money. And he went to his boss and said you know, hey I heard the story of Leonardo and he started to describe it and his boss just cut him off and said Dan make me something. And so he went away and he thought about well what kind of composition would an adult like to paint. And the composition he came up with was a sort of a cubist-still life. And he showed it to his boss -- and his boss, 'you know I hate it.' [Chuckles] I like the concept but I hate the abstract you know. And so they went to more -- I would say -- narrative or representational landscapes, seascapes, figure studies. And it took off from there.

CO: I think over the years having seen them and done some myself as a child or a young person -- the biggest, the most popular ones, are figurative aren't they? Like there's the landscapes, but then there's all those kittens and all the animals -- the horses, the farms. Give us a sense of the range at its peak of images that you had in paint-by-number.

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Well yeah it includes baseball players, it includes floral studies, it includes "The Last Supper." And then it includes you know classic you know Pinky and Blue Boy which had been reproduced with sort of limited success over the years. If you know what it's supposed to look like you probably aren't going to be happy [chuckles] with the paint-by-numbers.

CO: I think I tried the Blue Boy once -- it didn't come out well. But at its peak, how many different images -- how popular was paint-by-number in its heyday?

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Well it was estimated at one point by social critics who sort of made this kind of a rueful observation that more so-called number pictures were hanging up in people's homes in America than were original works of art. I mean that's quite a statement. I mean it's probably true. And given the ubiquity of paint-by-number -- but at the same time you know that becomes a cause for critical concern in some quarters that you are frustrating the innate creative potential of every child you know this sort of thing -- kind of extreme statements.

CO: But is there some truth to that? I mean there were a lot of people -- some of it was snobbery, but others were saying well this is by rote, it's not really a form of creativity. What did Dan Robbins say about why he thought they were so popular?

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Well he liked it as a process. You know just relaxing, sitting down, opening a little vial or a capsule of paint -- kind of easing into it as a leisure activity. But they put quite a bit into it. I mean in terms of testing them and making sure that it would come out as something that someone would feel that they could use for decorative effect. So people are not just doing them as a leisure pastime -- but they are framing them and hanging them up in their homes and living with them. When you see them today -- when you find them or stumble across them -- there aren't many that are not framed. And maybe that's how they survive. I don't know.

CO: And why did it drop off -- why isn't it as popular now as it was then?

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Well I think television comes to play, you know -- it becomes the focus of attention in the home. I mean there are kits still available that you can find and buy, but it's not as aggressively merchandised anymore. And I also think that we all share now kind of a thirst for authenticity that kind of goes against the grain of you know by rote filling in blanks and colouring books and that kind of thing. But even colouring books you know are making a turn and coming back I understand. But I do have to say that Robbins is responsible for putting paintbrushes into the hands and putting paints in front of people who would never have been available to this. And to do paint-by-numbers you can really learn what art was by doing what art was not. And so in that sense I think people were able to take the first steps toward art and I think that this was something at the time that escaped most cultural critics.

CO: Very interesting. William I appreciate speaking with you. Thank you for telling us about Dan Robbins and his paint-by-number.

WILLIAM LAWRENCE BIRD JR: Thank you.

JD: William Lawrence Bird Jr. is the author of "Paint by Number: The How-To Craze that Swept the Nation." We reached Mr. Bird in Tucson, Arizona. The inventor of paint-by-number -- Dan Robbins -- died last week. He was 93 years old.

[Music]

NXIVM

JD: One of the central players in a secret society alleged to have branded and controlled women pleaded guilty today in New York. The actor Allison Mack pleaded guilty to racketeering and racketeering conspiracy charges related to her role in the group NXIVM. Ms. Mack said she recruited women to the supposed self-improvement and mentorship group. NXIVM was led by a man by the name of Keith Raniere -- who is also on trial in this case. Women in the group were required to provide collateral or embarrassing secrets which would be made public if they went against the group. In October of 2017 Carol spoke with Sarah Edmondson, a former member of NXIVM who helped start a chapter in Vancouver. Here is part of that conversation from our archives. Ms. Edmondson begins by talking about the night she was branded by the group.

SOUNDCLIP

SARAH EDMONDSON: The tattoo is actually a brand that was made in a private home in Clifton Park, New York on March 9th, by a group of women who I was told we're going to be giving me a small tattoo, the size of a dime — and as a part of an initiation into a secret society for women. The night of, once my blindfold was removed and I stood naked with four other women, they used a cauterizing iron and the symbol was drawn on one line at a time.

CO: OK, let's go back to before that night when you found yourself blindfolded, naked and about to be cauterized in this way. When did you first get involved with this group known as NXIVM?

SE: I got involved in 2005, after meeting a director Mark Vicente, who made the film “What the Bleep Do We Know!?” And I told them that I liked his film. He said if you like my film, you'll like this program and I just took. And he referred me to Executive Success Programs. And a few weeks later, I took the program and very much enjoyed it.

CO: When did red flags start entering into your sight?

SE: To be honest, from day one there's been red flags. But one of the very manipulative, in my opinion, things that Executive Success Programs does is it tells you right from the beginning if you feel uncomfortable with something it means that you're doing it right. We were also taught very strictly that there is a smear campaign happening against us. But when you have the firsthand experience such as I did with the branding and then finding out three weeks later that the symbol was not in fact the four elements. It was a combination of Keith Raniere and Allison Mack's initials.

JD: From our archives, that was former NXIVM member Sarah Edmondson speaking to Carol in October 2017. Today, actor Allison Mack pleaded guilty to racketeering and racketeering conspiracy charges in relation to her role in NXIVM.

[Music]

David Saint-Jacques

JD: Canadian astronaut, David Saint-Jacques completed his first-ever spacewalk today -- becoming just the fourth Canadian to venture outside a vehicle in the void. He and NASA astronaut, Anne McClain, worked on the outside of the International Space Station doing some key maintenance tasks on batteries, communications systems, and the Canadarm 2 -- the station's outsized robotic hand. Ticking off the to-do list took six-and-a-half hours. And once he returned inside the station Mr. Saint-Jacques took time to answer questions from students beamed up from Earth. The question that is -- not the students. Here is what he said when he was asked what Canada's biggest contribution to space exploration would be over the next decade.

SOUNDCLIP

DAVID SAINT-JACQUES: So as you know Canada is committed to remain part of this big worldwide impulse to continue exploring, to go back to the moon, to eventually go to Mars. And I hope that we will continue down that path because it's great for everything in Canada. It's great mostly for people. I think you know what our greatest contribution to the space program of course has been the robotics and our astronaut program and all the research that we've done in space. But behind that is people. It's the great scientists, engineers, technicians, mathematicians, pilots, that kind of encourages a lot of people decide to pursue a career in the field of science, technology, medicine, engineering, maths because they were inspired by the space program. So maybe our greatest contribution is the amazing people that are part of the space program in Canada. And I can tell you wherever I go around the world, Canadian space people are well respected. Our work is well respected whether it would be at NASA, in Japan, in Europe, in Russia -- so our people our greatest asset.

JD: Canadian astronaut David Saint-Jacques answering questions from Canadian students while aboard the International Space Station.

[Music]

Quiet airplane toilet

Guest: Kent Gee

JD: You have waited an inordinately long time and then managed to cram yourself into a tiny washroom thousands of metres above the earth hurtling through the air at high velocity. You have used the washroom, briefly reveling in its soothing white noise. And then...you push the button.

SOUNDCLIP

[Airplane toilet flushing noise]

JD: That is the very familiar, very unsettling, and very loud, sound of an airplane toilet flushing. It's enough to make one wet oneself. But now, researchers at Brigham Young University have found a solution that is a whole lot quieter. Kent Gee is a professor of physics at that school, and the lead researcher on the project. We reached him in Promontory, Utah.

CO: Professor Gee why are toilets so loud on airplanes?

KENT GEE: The toilets are loud on airplanes because they use the pressure difference between the inside and the outside of the aircraft in order to flush them. They don't use very much water. Instead of using water and gravity, they use a partial vacuum or that pressure difference and that accelerates in the water and the waste at high speeds up to 150 metres per second or 300 miles per hour in order to get the waste down to the waste tank.

CO: Okay so let's play that again -- you can tell us what's going on in this. Here is the clip of the sound of that airline toilet.

SOUNDCLIP

[Airplane toilet flushing sound]

CO: [Chuckles] Everyone has heard that. It's frightening. What's going on there?

KG: So what you have is essentially there's a valve that maintains that pressure difference -- that valve opens and then the waste is sucked down the pipes -- down to the waste tank, and then you're just hearing that rush of air -- that is just the air (which) is moving at really high speeds causing turbulence inside the pipes and that that generates a lot of noise.

CO: Okay. And not just air, but it's taken out a lot of stuff with it, right?

KG: Yes. Not just air -- yeah the waste as it moves. It's open for three or four seconds in order to move all that waste down to the end of the aircraft.

CO: So just quickly where is it going after it leaves the bowl?

KG: Yeah so typically there is a one or more tanks at the rear of the aircraft and that's where the waste is held. So the toilets are connected through piping all the way down to the end of the aircraft. And so as you -- depending on where the lavatory is -- you could flush that and it has to make it all the way from say the first class, all the way back to the aircraft.

CO: Where the rest of us are.

KG: That's right. That's right.

CO: What kind of complaints do people make about these toilets? What are the problems with it? Why did you need to fix this?

KG: Well a lot of people we understood from talking to the people that make these kind of toilets, people involved in this industry, is that passengers sometimes won't use the toilets because it's so startling and in their words people are afraid -- afraid to use the toilet, particularly kids. And then the other part of it is sometimes if you flush the toilet and it can be heard throughout the cabin, it just makes people reluctant to use it.

CO: Let's hear the toilet you've developed. Here's the sound of that.

SOUNDCLIP

[Flushing noise]

CO: It's a bit amplified here. But what is the difference there?

KG: The difference is that the noise on the opening part is -- the valve is opening first of all -- is several decibels, it's less than half as loud as the original toilet. And so we've reduced the opening -- the valve opening noise a lot. And that reduces the startle. And then the second part of it is that the noise while the valve is open is also less and that's because we reduced some of that turbulence as the air is moving at high speeds we've been able to reduce some of that turbulence and that that reduces the noise as well. And so it just sounds less harsh and quieter.

CO: And just as we might come across as not being that because we have to have a level of sound on things but that's basically if you were in that little cubicle it would be a very different sound. Is that right?

KG: Yeah. On an average it would sound about half as loud.

CO: Okay. So this is now going to be installed on aircraft in North America? Are we going to start seeing these new toilets?

KG: That is an excellent question. We've been able to file a few patents and now we are working with industry partners to get this to market so hopefully soon.

CO: So you're getting some response -- people of the airlines appreciate that this is something they need.

KG: Absolutely. We've had people at BYU to demonstrate it. And now we're talking to everything from the airlines to the aircraft manufacturers.

CO: And just airlines or is there any other application for your quieter-smoother toilet?

KG: That is a great question. Not only do they use these vacuum assisted toilets in aircraft, they actually use vacuum assisted toilets on cruise ships where you can imagine they have lots and lots of toilets. And that's again to minimize the amount of water that's needed in each flush. And the other possible application would be as we move to green buildings where they're trying to minimize water usage -- there's applications for vacuum assisted toilets there.

CO: Coming to a bathroom near you.

KG: That's right.

CO: Professor Gee thank you.

KG: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

JD: Kent Gee is a professor of physics at Brigham Young. We reached him in Promontory, Utah.

[Music]

Dr. Wilbert Keon

JD: Dr. Wilbert Keon was a surgeon of firsts. He performed the first heart transplant in Ottawa and the country's first artificial heart transplant. Dr. Keon died yesterday. He was 83 years old. When Dr. Keon retired from the Heart Institute in 2004, some of his patients paid tribute to him. One of them was Jean-Guy Villeneuve. According to The Ottawa Citizen he credited the surgeon with saving his life three times. The first, during a bypass operation. The second was in 1984 when he became Dr. Keon's first heart transplant patient. The third was eight years later when he got a second transplant. Mr. Villeneuve told The Citizen, quote, "He never gave up on me. He gave me my life." Dr. Keon spoke to As It Happens in 1987 after he saved another person's life. He had just performed a world first operation on a 40 year old man using a laser to vaporize the plaque that had completely blocked his arteries. Here's part of what he had to say to host Michael Enright.

SOUNDCLIP

WILBERT KEON: There are three major advantages. The first is that it made surgery possible in a fairly large population of patients where surgery was impossible. The second thing is that it will make surgery much more effective and safe because it leads to a much cleaner surface on the blood vessel than we've ever been able to do before. And the third thing is it will eliminate the need for the major operation in a substantial number of patients a year or so down the road.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Dr. Keon is there any way to estimate the number of patients that this would be a boon to?

WILBERT KEON: It's a little difficult. You can throw numbers around it -- said that there are 200,000 bypass procedures done in America -- it's certainly not going to replace all of those. And it will lead to a few more operations in patients who are currently not operable. But it will remove the need for the operation in a very substantial number of patients I believe within a couple of years.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: Now does the material not grow back -- that's not the phrase I'm looking for -- but does it return at all the plaque material?

WILBERT KEON: Well it will to a degree certainly. Atherosclerosis is a progressive disease and no matter how you clean blood vessels out the buildup will return gradually. However there are good secondary prevention programs and techniques now and a middle aged patient has his coronaries cleaned out he's got a good chance of getting on through life without a recurrence on it.

MICHAEL ENRIGHT: And how is your patient doing today?

WILBERT KEON: He is very well.

JD: That was Dr. Wilbert Keon speaking to Michael Enright on this program in 1987. Wilbert Keon died yesterday. He was 83 years old.

[Music]

Kevin Freedman

JD: It was the summer of 1998, and Kevin Freedman had some errands to run. His friend graciously lent him the keys to her Ford Taurus. He had a little trouble starting the car but eventually he did get it going. Successfully he ran his errands. And then he dropped the car off back in the pool parking lot where he had found it. In itself, perhaps one of the most boring stories I've ever told you on this program. So why am I even telling you about it? Well because that trip turned Kevin Freedman into a criminal -- an outlaw. And now 20 years later he wants to make things right. Here is how Kevin Freedman told the story to Marcie Markusa, host of CBC Winnipeg's "Information Radio."

SOUNDCLIP

MARCIE MARKUSA: Were there any signs along the way that maybe this was sort of the wrong car?

KEVIN FREEDMAN: There were lots of signs. It didn't start initially and my first stop was to go to a bank and when I came out, the car would not start. It would not start for -- it felt like forever -- it was probably about four or five minutes, but it felt like a really long time. And I am a 17-year-old kid at the time so I'm a little nervous and paranoid. And then I had a parking ticket to pay. So I actually went to -- there was a strip mall there and a police station in the strip mall. So I went there to pay the parking ticket. I couldn't pay it there as it turns out and because I'd parked downtown I instinctively locked the door. So I returned to the car. And now I could not unlock the car door. So that was a problem. Two commissionaires who are former police officers or foreign military officers came and helped me get into the car. One of them had a Ford similar to this and said oh the keys are wonky sometimes you just have to know how to do it. And he opened it on the second try.

MARCIE MARKUSA: Which is so awesome because in hindsight like you really stole the car.

KEVIN FREEDMAN: Oh absolutely. Because that police station wouldn't let me pay the ticket. I had to go to the public safety building. So I ended up going to two police stations. Had potentially two former police officers helped me break in and then finally returned to the pool a couple hours later.

MARCIE MARKUSA: So when did you realize sort of what happened?

KEVIN FREEDMAN: That night when I left the pool, what I thought was my friend's car was still in the parking lot. And the next morning at work I saw my colleague whose car it was supposed to be. And I asked her why she left her car here last night, and she said she didn't. And it wasn't until then -- almost 24 hours later -- that I realized it wasn't her car. And she realized that the day before when I was gone somebody was flustered and actually had come back into the pool reporting that their car was stolen from the parking lot.

MARCIE MARKUSA: So now put yourself back there -- you're 17-year-old Kevin and what do you do? Did you just say I can never tell anybody this happened or I'm embarrassed -- like what were you going through?

KEVIN FREEDMAN: I wanted to tell the police. I wanted to apologize. I wanted to let them know that this actually happened and I was told that you know no harm-no foul, the car is back in the owner's possession. Nothing was damaged. So you're just going to give a whole lot more work to some police officers, a lot more hassle for everybody and yourself included. So it's probably that way.

MARCIE MARKUSA: So 21 years later you're like this is the story you've told over and over I'm sure.

KEVIN FREEDMAN: Absolutely.

MARCIE MARKUSA: And now you want to find the owner of the car that you took.

KEVIN FREEDMAN: Yeah. So I've always wanted to find her and now with social media we have that opportunity to spread a story like this quite wide. And I'd love to find the owner.

MARCIE MARKUSA: So what are the clues? What colour was the car? You said light colour. Do we know...

KEVIN FREEDMAN: I'm almost positive the car that I took was a white Ford Taurus.

MARCIE MARKUSA: In 1998. What are you going to say to her if you find her?

KEVIN FREEDMAN: Well I'd apologize. I want her to know that if this is something that she has thought about at all in last 20 years it did really happen. It wasn't that she misplaced her car somehow.

JD: That was Kevin Freedman speaking to CBC Winnipeg's "Information Radio" about the time he stole a car accidentally.

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April 8, 2019 Episode Transcript

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