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CBC Podcasts Uncover: Escaping NXIVM: Episode 5 “Blow It Up”

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NIPPY: And only my very best can truly honour our time together. I love you with all that I know to be me [cell rings] and this love will serve as my guide for the rest of time...

NIPPY: I vow to the end of human possibility to never forget or forsake this love...

LAUREN & Nippy: I choose you Sarah to be my wife.

JB: In working on this story, I’ve come to appreciate just how much Sarah’s entire life was shaped by this group… most of her friends were in NXIVM. It occupied almost all her waking hours. It was the lens through which she filtered everything — even her wedding.

[Sound: Singing]

LAUREN & SE: From this day, I choose you Nippy...

SE: Lauren was there the officiant, and she wrote a really beautiful speech that had you know Nippy cried, I cry all the time. But to see him cry, a single tear of course, one single tear, it was a beautiful ceremony.

[Sound: Much rejoicing]

JB: Sarah shows me this video from her wedding of the flash mob. She’s surrounded by her NXIVM sisters...

JB: Their arms outstretched, eyes to the heavens, huge smiles, and self-possessed...

JB: The wedding, these dancers, the vows, the way NXIVM was so deeply integrated into Sarah’s life. It reminds of a term my friend Jamie told me about...

JAMIE LEVIN: Ontological security

JL: Ontological security

JL: Oh jeez, you want me to define it now? [laughs]

JL: It’s a cognitive need that humans have to feel secure in their identity, and stable in their identity. They need to know who they are, and what they are…

JL: Ontological insecurity, which is a feeling of great chaos and uncertainty. It’s where you don’t know what your identity is. Where you don’t know what meaning is. Meaning is lost. And that gives you a feeling of great insecurity.

NIPPY: We’re like what do we do? How do we get out of this?! This is when I’m scared.

Nippy: and I’m just like [makes sound, big exhale] my heart’s just like… my heart’s...

[pause]

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SE: I was in survival mode. I was like I just have to get out. I just have to figure out how to get out of the confines of DOS.

SE: Yes...

SE: And I didn't know what they were going to do with it. That like they were going to post my photo online any minute? You know like I didn't, I didn’t know what they were going to do.

SE: I don't know I thought they would like send someone up to Toronto to follow me. That was really tense.

JB: What he can’t hear is Sarah warning women about DOS.

SE: The thing that I was most afraid of is that I wanted to let people know, but I didn't want it to come from me. So I was I was afraid that I was going to get sued for slander or whatever.

[Sound: That one Justin Bieber song]

NIPPY: Sarah tells me she got fucking branded. She got branded.

JB: The beginning is a bit hard to make out. Nippy’s saying “Sarah tells me she got fucking branded, she got branded!” And Jim responds by asking “well, what did she say about it?”

JDN: Uh huh. Dude, this is criminal shit. This is stuff that I don’t want to have anything to fucking do with.

NIPPY: Yeah, she’s involved in it.Don’t try and wrap your head around how this is ok, ok? I’m not here to do that. I don’t want anything more to do with these organizations. I’m out. I’m out. If you think you are doing something good and helping people, the definition of personal growth isn’t getting fucking branded. Snd then a fucking sex ring!! L

NIPPY: Sure, right. Keith’s fuckng initials on her crotch.

LS: Neh.

LS: I’d like to have a conversation with you.

JB: Nippy calls it a strategic temper tantrum. The anger is very real, but the timing of this outburst is calculated.

LS: Why? What if you’re wrong? What if you’re wrong?

LS: But i’m open to talking about it

[rustling, Nippy screaming] NIPPY: I’m sorry that you are branding my fucking wife…

JB: Sarah and Nippy’s plan is a kind of NXIVM flip of their own. They are going to turn the NXIVM philosophy against itself. And use it to help them leave.

JB: Like, why is that the strategy you guys have chosen?

KID: “Mama…

JB: Now it’s Sarah’s turn to sell the story.

SE: We were in a cab I think. I think that was the beginning of the phone call, right?

JB: She records herself calling Lauren Salzman from Toronto. Its just after Nippy’s tantrum. I get her to play it back for me. When I first heard this recording, I just thought it was a panicked call Sarah made as she was leaving… and it is. But now I realize there is more to it.

SE: I'm just trying to wrap my head around this, Lauren, like my husband wants a divorce. My husband wants a divorce. Lauren, I’ve been in fight and flight since January. I haven't been able to sleep.

LS: I just got here and Nippy screamed at me about your brand…

LS: Yeah, I don’t know if he’s seen it or he knows about it or whatever.

LS: Yeah

JB: Your voice sounds... at the beginning of this, you sound tense?

SE: Is Keith behind DOS? Is he the one who organized this?

SE: t's not something we discuss was her answer to me. She knows very well that Keith, Keith was her master. Keith is her master.

SE: No.

LS: He gave them permission to use collateral and penance.

LS: He knew about it, but he didn't cause it. And he didn't create the brand. The girls did.

LS: I don't believe it's bad for women to do things to build honour and character. And I don't think.. you know, and he’s talking about a sex ring…

SE: Okay. Because Nippy told me that I have Keith’s initials on my body. That I've been branded like a... like a cow or something, right.

SE: Mhm.

SE: I love you too, Troy.

Kid Mom.

KID: I love you.

SE: I think my son was starting to pick up on my level of anxiety that was pretty extreme at this point.

LS: I have... I promise you I am the only one who has them.

LS: Yes.

LS: I'll get rid of everything.

LS: He has not.

JB: There’s a lot going on for Sarah during this phone call. At times this sounds like a warm conversation between old friends. Despite everything, it’s a friendship Sarah doesn’t want to lose.

SE: I want to have a normal friendship with you. I just need to step back from this and just go back to me and you.

SE: Okay. Okay. Okay.

LS: Okay. We’ll talk later. I love you very much.

LS: Okay. You too.

LS: Bye.

SE: I ended up learning from that phone call that Keith absolutely knew about DOS, and that my cover was safe for the time being [laughs]

JB: Sarah describes this period of time in Toronto as a total blur. She’s barely eating or sleeping. She doesn’t know who to trust. She’s trying to figure out who else is in DOS without blowing her cover.

Lauren thinks Sarah is going to lay low and just take care of her grandfather. But Sarah says the more she finds out, the harder it is to be discreet.

JK: I didn't get branded. I didn't even know that DOS existed. I found out because things were getting really weird really fast.

JB: This is a huge deal. Sarah and Nippy are like the Beyonce and Jay-Z of NXIVM in Vancouver. Word is spreading fast.

JB: Jen reaches out to Sarah. Sarah’s in Toronto at Whole foods

JB: Jen and Sarah start running through the names of NXIVM members in Vancouver.

Trying to guess who might be in DOS and warning them. Sarah tells the three women who were her slaves to leave the group, but otherwise, she tries to stay behind the scenes, so this disruption can't be linked back to her. A blog called the Frank Report run by a former employee of NXIVM publishes an article about DOS women being branded with Keith’s initials. More women leave DOS.

JK: They told me I had to put my face and my inner labia in a shot. A nude photo. That I had to like, spread my legs in a very particular way and make sure that my face was in the shot too. I just couldn't believe it. It was just insanity. I couldn't sit still. For about two weeks, all Anthony and I did was walk. Just walk around our neighbourhood. We had pizza like every night. For a while. It was just like the only thing that was comforting. Sarah sent us a list of like, things to read and things to watch to help us understand what we were coming out of.

JB: It is all becoming clear. DOS is bigger than Sarah had imagined. It has infiltrated the community she built in Vancouver. And the recruiting was still going on.

SE: I was fucking livid. I can swear, right?

SE: OK. [laughs]

JB: We've crossed that bridge. The horse is out of the barn there. But to what extent did you also feel guilty because you're the one that brought them in?

SE: I felt responsible, but I didn't feel guilty. I mean I felt badly. I felt... I knew that I hadn't done the bad thing to them. Do you know what I mean? I knew that I'd set them up to have the bad thing happen. And that's the part that I felt responsible for to say hey, trust me. Join this community. You know trust that this is a place where we're all going to grow and love each other and support each other and it's all good. That part constantly feel guilty about.

SE: I know that I that when I left Toronto, by the time I left Toronto and I landed back in Vancouver, I'm pretty sure that they had figured out that...

JB: How much did your life change that day?

[pause]

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She tells me it was not uncommon for one call to last six hours. She hears Lauren is also calling people in Vancouver. Telling a different story about DOS and Sarah. Jen Kobelt describes it to me like two Jedi Knights trying to use their powers of persuasion over people. It’s like a line has been drawn on that dance floor at Sarah’s wedding. There are now those who side with Sarah and leave NXIVM. And those that turn against her, and shut her out. Sarah also hears that NXIVM is building a legal case against her. She doesn’t want to end up in Clare Bronfman’s bad books. And she’s desperate to speak with anyone in charge… to plead her case.

JB: This is the last phone call Sarah has with a higher up in NXIVM. It’s with Jim Del Negro — the man who used to run SOP with Nippy. She recorded it. We listen to it together.

JB: In NXIVM, if you’ve been wronged, you have the right to speak out about it. Sarah’s hoping Jim will hear her out — maybe even understand — and defend her to the higher ups.

JDN: So I don't know if I can trust you. But you know? So but I know whatever you did you could you know I'm sure you made mistakes or whatever. I don't know you know anybody that’s in it. People don't come to me when we talk about rumors. Because they know I don't... I don't like to hear them.

JDN: Did you ever think of talking to Keith about it?

[pause]

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{Sound: Walking]

JB: You walk a really fast pace!

JB: Have you always been that way?

JB: I think we've walked. I just forgot.

JB: Sarah and I are standing at 505 Georgia Street. It’s a two-story building where NXIVM’s coaching sessions were held. We’ve walked for 20 minutes from her condo to where she used to work.

This was the heart of Sarah’s NXIVM community, and her life.

JB: One of the last times Sarah was here was not long after she had that conversation with Jim. Most people in Vancouver quit once they learned about DOS, and that Sarah and Nippy left NXIVM.

Sarah came here with a small group of former members to shut the place down.

SE: One is that we all came in and packed up the centre, like, took out all the ESP stuff put it in a box. There was this huge Executive Success poster board that we got for one of our first like, personal development uh fairs we went to, where we had like a booth, so this huge Executive Success board with our pictures on it. [giggling] And we took turns holding it and like shit kicking it. Like holding this thing and just fucking ripping into it and tearing it apart like primal was screaming and just, crying and kicking and swearing we all took turns with that it was amazingly cathartic. Fuck you! Fuck…

There were bags of sashes, and binders full of ESP curriculum, there was reams of paper work. But there was one thing she didn’t want to turn over…

JB: Clare went to the Vancouver police. One of her complaints was that by holding back those files, Sarah had committed theft.

JB: Because you know that this has happened to others before?

JB: This was around the time I ran into Sarah on Hornby Island, and she told me she had just left a cult. She said Clare Bronfman had filed a criminal complaint against her. She was being blamed for the mass exodus of NXIVM students in Vancouver. She was struggling to find words to tell her story… or even know where to begin. After months of research, I have a far better appreciation for what was going on. Sarah was about to throw her final punch. Nippy said it had to be a death blow.

JB: They go to the press. They speak with a journalist.

JB: A guy named Barry Meier of the New York Times.

BARRY MEIER: Hello?

BM: Yeah, I can hear. Okay, great.

JB: I hope you're enjoying retirement.

[Josh laughing]

BM: This was one of the strangest things I'd ever heard about. Both kind of disturbing and mind boggling.

BM: Well, I mean I think it is very important for someone who had been branded to speak publicly about that.

BM: And so I think Sarah was very brave.

REPORTER: Nxivm is under the state’s microscope after a recent article by The New York Times…

REPORTER THREE: This woman says she was held down and branded, yes branded, during a bizarre initiation…

REPORTER FIVE: [Speaking: Spanish] El New York Times revelo que la organization Nxivm…

JEFF DOUGLAS: A recent New York Times investigation has revealed damning allegations, Sarah Edmondson is a former member…

JB: Is she your team, or do you really have a PR team?

JB: Sarah arrives at our studio in Vancouver… with an entourage

SE: It’s on the 1st page.

SE: Yes.

SE: Last 12 hours have been, actually pretty insane…

[pause]

KG: Well, we got a notification that a letter has come to our attention from our super secret drop-box here at CBC. We had no idea what it was… we got it emailed to us, want me to read it to you?

JB: I’m at work with my producer Kathleen.

JB: That’s interesting

KG & JB: Who knows.

[pause]

MAN: Men do these things, we call them Marines. You know women do these things, we call them victims. Keith never told Sarah Edmondson what to do. The government is playing into a sexist agenda. You know Keith has a unique sex life. He doesn't need DOS to have sex with women.

MAN: Yes, I'm saying they're lying. if they're saying that they were coerced to have sex with Keith, I'm saying that they’re lying.

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TRANSCRIPT: Uncover: Escaping NXIVM - Season 1, EP 5

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