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The Current Transcript for April 3, 2019

Host: Anna Maria Tremonti

STORIES FROM THIS EPISODE

Prologue

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SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: The team has to trust each other and with Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott that trust has been broken.

ANNA MARIA TREMONTI: And so they are out. Two women, once star cabinet ministers, are now not even Liberals and while the prime minister talks of a broken trust, both Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott insist their actions were always about loyalty. And all those caucus members who wanted them gone talk loyalty too. So what began with SNC-Lavalin and its pickings for the opposition has wound its way right into the fabric of the Liberal Party, which as you'll recall had been torn apart not so long ago. And gee that's not even the only political fight underway. We're talking about it all in just a moment. Also today, as an Indigenous elder in Yukon, William Josie does not need a report to tell him Canada is warming faster than other nations. He's already living that reality, tracking the changing patterns of carribou herds.

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VOICE: They're going to have to adapt and that's what they're doing. Staying up there where they still have food and it's cold. I don't know hwat they're going to do, but we're going to adapt. believe me.

AMT: From the open stretches of the far north to the concrete expanses of the citiies, people are tracking the specific changes mentioned in that devastating climate change report released this week. We'll hear from them in just over an hour. And you're going to hear Albert Woodfox today. Albert Woodfox spent 44 years in solitary confinement in a U.S. prison for a crime all the evidence says he did not commit. Longer than any other person has spent in solitary in the U.S.

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VOICE: And I would get a clutch for a good time. I would usually strip down to my underwear, sometimes naked and just pace up and down the cell. You just keep pacing. Especially you know, you can breathe again and the walls move back and the places stop.

AMT: He is 72. He has only been free for three years and he is using his voice to speak up against racism in the justice system. Hear here in half an hour. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti. This is The Current.

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Trudeau tried doing politics differently by not expelling former ministers sooner, says columnist

Guests: Susan Delacourt, Katie Simpson, Mia Rabson

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VOICE: I do not believe that I should be removed from caucus for doing my job and doing what I believe is right. I believe this that it was a reasonable, rational thing to do in an unreasonable and irrational situation.

AMT: That is Jody Wilson-Raybould, the former attorney general and Justice Minister on Monday. By late Tuesday, she was not just a former cabinet minister, but a former Liberal.

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VOICE: Civil wars within parties are incredibly damaging because they signal to Canadians that we care more about ourselves than we do about them. That's why I made the difficult decision to remove Ms. Wilson-Raybould and Dr. Philpott from the Liberal caucus. We've taken every effort to address their concerns, but ultimately if they can't honestly say that they have confidence in this team then they cannot be part of this team.

AMT: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was met with a standing ovation from the rest of the Liberal carcas at an emergency meeting last night. He delivered a rousing speech that sought to change the topic to climate change in the election year ahead. But will dropping the too high profile MPs from his caucus help put the SNC-Lavalin affair behind him. There is a lot to talk about, so let's get to it. I'm joined by three journalists from the National Press Gallery. Katie Samson is a senior reporter with CBC News. Susan Delacourt is a national columnist and Ottawa Bureau Chief for The Toronto Star. Mia Rabson is Canadian Press' energy and environment reporter on Parliament Hill. Hi everyone. Welcome.

KATIE SIMPSON: Good morning.

MIA RABSON: Good morning.

SUSAN DELACOURT: Good morning.

AMT: Katie Simpson, let's start with you. Both Jody Wilson-Raybould and Jane Philpott really wanted to remain Liberals and they made that clear in their own statements yesterday.

KS: They did they and really took two different approaches to try and win back their colleagues. Jody Wilson-Raybould sent a two page letter to all Liberal MPs really trying to make her case, saying listen I'm angry, I'm frustrated and she said I'm not the one who tried to politically interfere in sensitive matters. I'm not the one that made this public and she tried to argue that she was actually trying to protect the prime minister and that she was trying to protect the government from the mess that has become the SNC-Lavalin affair. And she tried to make the argument that you know listen you guys are going to have to make a decision about whether I can stay in caucus or not. And this is going to be about the kind of party you want to be a part of. So she tried to make the broad appeal with a letter yesterday. The initial reaction, we talked to some MPs who openly said too little too late. Jane Philpott tried a different approach. She went in person to an emergency meeting of Ontario Liberal MPs around 12:30 yesterday. She went into the room. She was inside for about 10 minutes and sources tell us that when she was inside she restated that she has confidence in the prime minister, that she wants to stay and then she left and a very frank and open discussion took place once she did leave. Her words were not enough to convince her colleagues that she should be allowed to stay. And what also is interesting is that there was no distinction between their actions, that the prime minister kicked them both out even though much of the frustration much of the anger had been directed at Jody Wilson-Raybould especially after that recording was made public. But there was still a lot of frustration about Jane Philpott and the interview she did with Macleans magazine, as well as her letter that was just absolutely scathing when she denounced the Prime Minister's handling of the SNC-Lavalin affair.

AMT: Susan Delacourt, you say in your column today that Jody Wilson-Raybould has essentially written the manual on how to lose your political job.

SD: Yeah definitely. You know we've seen people break from parties before and I've been here long enough to see a few of those. What's new about this one is how public it's been. You know usually when men or women leave political parties they dont tend to burn bridges by revealing what was going on in cabinet or portraying their past, the government they were leaving as less than ethica.l it's been an interesting way to watch this whole thing go down. I can't say I've ever seen anything like it and I don't know that anybody will imitate this in future, especially because it hasn't yet yielded Julie Wilson-Raybould any gains or Jane Philpott, but it's been an interesting thing to watch.

AMT: Mia Rabson, in expelling both women from caucus, the prime minister said trust had been broken. At the same time they have released letters saying they were being loyal. Caucus has said this is about loyalty. What do you make of all of that?

MR: You could hear in that phone call that was released last week, the audio recording between Jody Wilson-Raybould and Gerald Butts, the prime minister's former principal secretary, Jody Wilson-Raybould, said over and over again, sorry it was with Michael Wernick, sorry the privy council clerk. Jody Wilson-Raybould said over and over again, I am trying to protect him. Doesn't he understand this. She definitely seemed to think she was coming at this from a place of loyalty trying to make sure that the government was doing the right thing. But then she feels she lost her job over it. Jane Philpott feels like she was being loyal to it both to Jody Wilson-Raybould, but also to the government that she felt that she was elected to represent and to be part of. Whereas Justin Trudeau, he says the trust has been broken. When you have a cabinet minister secretly recording phone calls, I mean I think it's clear the trust has been broken and there are a lot of liberal MPs who are saying, whatever the issues are at hand, if we can't actually trust to have them in a room, to have conversations that are frank and open and we can say what we think without feeling like we might be recorded or that words might end up in a newspaper, definitely the trust is broken and there is no loyalty there. So they all seem to think that they're coming at it from loyalty, but from different angles.

AMT: Katie, these two women were stars in the Trudeau cabinet central to the commitment to reconciliation, Indigenous issues. How much of a blow is this to the Liberal party? Well I think we're going to see a full display of how much of a blow it is to the Liberal Party today because there's an event on Parliament Hill It's called Daughters of the Vote. And there are going to be 330 young women from every single riding across this country sitting in their house of commons. It's an event meant to promote more women getting involved in politics because as the prime minister says adoo women change politics. Well I suspect we're going to see a very. Very interesting event if there is not an open protest of the prime minister for this decision to kick out these two women from corkers who there are a couple of different camps to sort of look at this one you've got the senior Liberals who say you know trust is broken you can't keep someone in the party that you can't trust and if you can't function in caucus how can you be a part of a party and how can you be a part of the team. But then there is this other camp and it's more made up of the opposition and it's more made up of what I'm seeing for instance legal experts is there. You know these are two women that stood up to the prime minister. They could be considered whistleblowers and what happens when you stand up to the prime minister and you disagree with them public publicly well you get the boot. Some of those that sentiment may very much show up in their house today because some of these young women are expected to argue, how is it doing politics differently when you kick someone out who stands up to you?

AMT: Well I I ask about that, doing politics differently because Jody Wilson-Raybould talks about that in her statement that she wrote. Susan is this a new way of doing politics? Is this politics the old way? Like there seems to be a disconnect here on what new politics.

SD: Yeah I'd be really careful about this to people out there thinking that this is just a neatly divided gender dispute. Actually Trudeau has come in for criticism that is usually levelled at women that he's been weak in this case that he should have stood up to them. He's been too emotional he says. He also referred to this in his his speech to carcas yesterday is look you know the story around town is that any other prime minister wouldn't have put up with this. Trudeau didn't say this. This is me saying this and. Trudeau sort of glancingly referred to that when he said look I have tried to be patient. I have tried to be understanding. I think it is. I think he's right. Or people are right in saying you can't imagine Jean Chretien or Stephen Harper putting up with this for 8 weeks we're going on to?

KS: 55 days. No one's counting.

SD: Trudeau in his own way believes that he did politics differently by letting this go on so long and letting them stay in caucus. Jody Wilson-Raybould even came back to cabinet after she left cabinet and addressed cabinet all. I think this has been the case that has polarized people in huge ways. The truth of this has often depended on what side you're on and I think it's going to continue to be that too. But it is not falling in to the normal gender categories. I would just sort of it's been very interesting to me to watch the way women commentators in this have been far more tell me the whole story about this than you know this is an absolute case of black and white. It is not simply a gender dispute, although as Katie is saying it's going to be today because of the daughters of the vote event.

AMT: And Mia, how much traction does this give the Conservatives?

MR: It is certainly given them some traction although I've also heard others who are concerned that the opposition has been using this sort of more than they should have and Andrew Scheer and Jagmeet Singht, the NDP leader, they still have not distinguish themselves and right now all they're doing is sort of going out and saying well this is what Im not. But nobody really understands what they are and so they now have to take what they have been given as a gift that nobody was expecting two months ago and translate that into their own reason for being elected. They aren't going to just be elected because Justin Trudeau and Jody Wilson-Raybould had this significant argument. If they can't do that then they run the risk of this not actually helping them at all.

AMT: And you know there was more ammunition yesterday. Gerald Butts released something Kate. How does this prolong things? What did he do?

KS: Well he released a series of text messages that he says supplements his argument. There he is again deeply denying some of the characterization that Jody Wilson-Raybould made in her testimony about what exactly happened in the events leading up to her shunt being shuffled out of the role of attorney general into the role of Veterans Affairs. There are text messages that show mostly they show that Jody Wilson-Raybould and Gerry Butts are trying desperately to connect for a conversation but they keep missing each other for a different time zones and they live in different parts of the country so you know that thats pretty normal. But on top of it Gerry Butts has argued that there was a cordial tone and he says that he wasn't real or didn't raise the SNC-Lavalin an argument until after the shuffle was starting to take place. After that shuffle was set in motion. The text messages show Jody Wilson-Raybould raising concerns saying my eyes are wide open on this and I know what's really going on and Gerry Butts essentially coming back to say you know exactly what's going on because the prime minister told you. We are in a difficult position because Scott Brison has decided to leave politics and we are going to tell everyone the truth on this. There are a number of text messages that show that Jody Wilson-Raybould was interested in talking about other issues and Gerry Butts is hoping this is going to build support to his argument.

AMT: And then we go back to the fact that they were both Liberals. They were both working on the same team. Susan, the prime minister refers to civil wars. You know I mean it wasn't that long ago that the Liberals were third and he took over that party. They had 35 seats.

SD: Yeah. That is, just a word about the Butts e-mails going to the point we were talking about before too. If you went and looked at those messages blind and was wondering who was the man raiding and who was the woman. It wouldn't be clear because it's Gerald Butts, the man in that conversation who's talking about having to put his kids to bed. I've got to read. I've got all these family duties and it's Jody Wilson-Raybould who's saying I need to get this settled right now you know. So all our ideas of gender preferences of men and women in the political workplace are a challenged a bit by those note. As to the point about previous civil wars, yes, you know I think we're coming up to almost I think it's the six year anniversary of when Trudeau won the Liberal leadership. And he had Jean Chretien, Paul Martin sitting there in the front row and he looked at both of them and said there are going to be no more hyphenated Liberals in this. There will be Martin Liberals, there will not be Chretien Liberals and he evoked that again last night to caucas, that he does not want, he didn't say this explicitly, but he doesn't want Jody Wilson-Raybould Liberals, he doesn't want Jane Philpott Liberals in there. Whether he gets his wish, I don't know why. I think all of us around this table here are going to be measuring the damage to the Liberal Party. Eight weeks is a long time for this to go on.

AMT: Well I want to ask about that. Mia this thas occupied so much of the attention of official Ottawa and the media. Across the country there is a carbon tax fight with premiers, there's a climate change report with alarming numbers. Have we got the focus right?

MR: Well I think the focus is generally sort of never wrong, I mean this is certainly an issue that is a big deal There are some serious allegations that are being levied at the prime minister and the government here and so it would be unfair to say that this shouldn't have been talked about. That said when it comes to what people care about they might have cared about this a day one day two maybe even three. But the impact on their lives directly from the SNC-Lavalin scandal is not huge. Carbon taxes climate change those are things that people experience every day and those are the kind of things that likely will be more on their minds when they mark mark there at their acts on their ballot next fall. So the government definitely wants to bring the attention back. We've been accused of trying to distract from this issue by releasing things like this report this week that said Canada is warming up twice as fast as the rest of the world. This is the government actually just continuing to do its work for the most part. If they release that report the cynical cynic in me is not to distract from SNC Lamorak but to support their current acts which came in this week. But anyway for for what people actually are going to care about going forward carbon taxing whether they're paying more for gas whether their houses are at risk from flooding if there's heat wave to this summer if there's forest fires. Those are things that actually impact people. Jody Wilson-Raybould and Justin Trudeau disagreeing about whether she was pressured isn't going to affect people.

AMT: So Susan we've seen the Liberals doubled down on their commitments related to climate change. We see that report released this week, the same week as the carbon tax. How does all of that, that issue merged with the SNC issue, the loss of Wilson-Raybould and Philpott, what are you watching there?

SD: Well I think what worries me as a journalist watching this whole SNC-Lavalin affair and what it means about debates about carbon tax or any other kind of issue debate we're going to have in the election is what I referred to before is people are deciding their truth based on what side you're on. This has polarised and it is being magnified on social media and I think dangerous ways. People are being called names. There doesn't seem to be a hunt for the middle ground on SNC-Lavalin or on carbon tax or any other issue. And if this is a portend of how the election debate is going to go on, it's going to be a long 36 days.

AMT: Katie what are you thinking?

KS: I'm thinking that once the once the SNC-Lavalin affair start to die down, I do think the carbon debate is really going to flare up and that heading into the election because the Conservatives are going to position themselves saying, if you vote for us, your life will cost less money or it will cost less money to live your life and take a look at this example and here are the reasons why and it's a lot of I've mentioned this before. A lot of different countries around the world, particularly progressive candidates there are looking to run on a carbon tax because again the science, the Nobel Prize winning science, is on this sort of model on how to do things, even if it is politically toxic, people are going to be looking to Justin Trudeau and whether his government can win and whether there is an example of how this can work successfully in an election. Now whether this SNC-Lavalin affair complicates things, I'm not going to predict where things are going to go, if youd told me on February 7th, 55 days later we'd still be talking about this and this would still be a slow drip of information that just won't end, I'd say that's crazy, but you know that's politics.

AMT: Katie you've got one of those things on the wall you know 55, cross off every 5.

KS: And I draw a little smiley face with tears down. We're never talking about anything else.

SD: We're trying to figure out what lasts longer in Ottawa these days: winter or SNC Lavalin.

AMT: Well and if you look at the climate change report, maybe not. Again there are other opposition politicians in here beyond the federal politicians. There are other provincial politicians, there's the Alberta election campaign underway already. All of this kind of dovetails. It's a really interesting political time.

MR: And don't forget Doug Ford's going to come out with his Ontario budget next week and expect that to be a very stark contradiction to what Justin Trudeau and the Liberals put out. Was budget week last week? I can't even remember. Was it two weeks ago? All these things have melded together, but it's going to be a stark difference and I think we're going to start to see more campaigning because even though Andrew Scheer is the leader of the opposition, Doug Ford is seen as one of the leaders of the Conservative movement and Andrew Scheer is going to look to mimic Doug Ford's success. So expect that this document, this budget for Ontario could be something that Andrew Scheer looks to and leans on as a way to sort of help the Conservative movement you know distinguish itself from what the Liberals are doing so I think we're going to get into more of the election politics starting next week.

KS: I was going to say you're also going to see Justin Trudeau not just battling Andrew Scheer on this. He's battling Jason Kenney, he's battling Doug Moe, he's battling Scott Moe, the premier of Saskatchewan. He has many opponents on this that are going to be coming at him hard for several more months heading into that election, it's not just going to be one voice.

AMT: Okay well lots to keep talking about. Thank you all three of you.

SD: Thanks Anna Maria.

KS: Thank you.

MR: Thank you.

AMT: Katie Simpson, senior reporter with CBC News, Susan Delacourt, the Toronto Star, Mia Rabson, the Canadian Press. You may have noticed over the past few weeks we've been making room on Wednesdays for a deeper dive into national affairs dominating the conversation. You'll be hearing a lot more of that as we convene a regular national affairs panel on Wednesday mornings and we hope you'd join us for that. Stay with us the news is next and then we're back.

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'It destroys your humanity': Albert Woodfox on surviving 44 years in solitary confinement

Guests: Albert Woodfox

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

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VOICE 1: This morning waking up a free man after more than four decades in solitary confinement.

VOICE 2: How does it feel?

VOICE 3: I really haven't decided yet.

VOICE 1: Yesterday, Albert Woodfox, one of the prisoners known as the Angola Three, celebrated his 69th birthday by walking out of a Louisiana jail. After taking a plea deal, he's now starting life outside of his nine by six prison cell for the first time in 43 years.

VOICE 3: Right now I'm just trying to adjust to being free.

AMT: That is an ABC News report from February 20th of 2016. For more than four decades, Albert Woodfox was in solitary confinement in one of the most notorious in the United States. He was accused of the 1972 murder of a corrections officer named Brent Miller. Albert Woodfox always maintained his innocence. He claimed he and another prisoner were framed for the killing because of their activities over conditions in Louisiana's Angola prison, as members of the Black Panther Party. And though his conviction was twice thrown out, Albert Woodfox would go on to spend more time in solitary confinement than any other prisoner in U.S. history. As you heard, Albert Woodfox was released three years ago. He's written a book, Solitary: My Story of t=Transformation and Hope. Albert Woodfox joins me in Toronto. And a warning, this interview contains some graphic language and violence. Hello and welcome.

ALBERT WOODFOX: Thank you for having me.

AMT: As you listen to that report, what do you think that first day of freedom?

AW: It doesn't seem like three years actually you know. And then on my birthday as as well, but for me you know everything has been first time experiences and I think one of the strengths that I developed while in solitary was almost changing to adjusments because you know you're forced to deal with constant change, constant change, so you have to adjust in order for me to stay sane.

AMT: And I want to hear your whole story, but let's just talk about solitary for a minute like I said more than four decades, what's the exact amount of time?

AW: By my estimate, 44 years, 10 months.

AMT: 44 years, you know I can't even imagine what that means.

AW: It's difficult for me sometimes you know. When you think in terms of days and weeks and months and years you think you've been locked in a nine by six cell longer than most people been alive.

AMT: We're going to talk more about that, but I want to go back. I want to talk about your childhood as well. I want to know what it was like for you as a young boy. You were growing up in New Orleans.

AW: Well like most African-Americans in this country you know America had it today in media is a very racist country and African-Americans are at the bottom of the social there and so there are four blocks of racism. And really what else too is a systemic application of racism in America was very difficult for me as a young man you know now our government roll up and tap my head. No no. Hell no. In three years no aspiration as you know or even go on at school near here. History in civil service coalesces. Oh you know African Americans were totally absent you know from the history books. So you know you have no sense of belonging no sense of are you. And then there you are. As a member African-American now people are heard can contribution to our society too similar to the station and so that amount images stuff for people involved in cramming screed like as we referred to it.

AMT: And your mom was illiterate. She couldn't just get any job, she had to do some pretty desperate things.

AW: Yeah. She was illiterate. She could read write her name. She is now an American one. Now I have to tell you does situation nerd women why in America did you not mean being you know African-American and being literate. She was very limited. So she was forced you know in a approach to she n n n how can you know or schemes scams. You know I try to keep a roof fall out here fall on the teeth and claws and stuff so bad they get pretty hard and difficult. Led me you know Shapley in your eyes you go to the supermarket is up in Chablis case goods in a Imbrie and stuff and bring it on. Anyhow I'd have to sneak it in our house because she would never tolerate you know us doing anything like that. Tammy you know was so strange because she felt as though the biorhythm are raising and protecting us was harder and harder alarm you know. So I used to worry that about the tash. She used to do a lot of bartending or anything at all allowed. And you know and she you know she come as she worked the jury in a minor crime maybe you know. Exactly. And so I would you know go in Shab little food stuff and then I would sneak it in the house and you know put it in a cabinet stuff and she was never the wiser. Then you know without undue air pressure in there you know she bodies fill this.

AMT: But that's how it started for you, shoplifting for food?

AW: That and the gusy in the neighborhood I hung out with. Now we you know we in Devon America here basically ze rule. You know zero hope, zero We had no images no live images. Their name is are there other men in there. Tammy strangulate words are being a petty crime. I was a frisky disposition. And so you know I was a product of Kaja in a tanso I grew up.

AMT: What would you do?

AW: Well I'd burglarizes. I'd you know shop lift. Sold drugs been a drug addict. You know.

AMT: How old were you during all this? The early days.

AW: Oh well it these young teens a new progressive as you get older.

AMT: So you end up at a prison called Angola at a young age in Louisiana.

AW: Yes. 22.

AMT: What's it like when you get to Angola?

AW: Very violent very racially segregated Oh yeah those are driving sex slave market which yankie is coming in 16 17 years or wobblier raped in forcedly of sex slaves n Nahm prison the other prisoners in and secured it people benefitted from it directly.

AMT: They had a name for when the new young prisoners came in.

AW: Used to call them Fresh Fish air was here. Ben an now there were four. Two is about Lawler's.

AMT: What was it about the Black Panthers that attracted you? What did you like about them?

AW: You know sun tan you have you know you have a lad that has gone on in Sag you know in your heart you saw Leys any my n but you figure what it is you know is it yeah you know as here n you know we see dead the boys on the street was louder than the voice of my mother in voice as a black at that point there was that was louder than the voice for this street. The padders would be all were dying sports a lot a lot of the feelings that I hear but didn't understanding and Kinen to lecture a lad and couldn't speak about Sardegna hours that I had to be. And as you know I received a 50 year prison sentence for armed robbery and the same be our escape and eventually I wound up in Harlem because I knew Harlem from our criminal days but this was a different Harlem you know a black panther party here are being established now. They were very Appalachian black community is so you know or seen you know where are the men and women people moving around neighborhoods in you know days you know and.

AMT: You liked that. You liked they were seen.

AW: I liked that. I was attracted to the women, to be honest. Way To drag it to the two women it up or down and it's you know I know but you call it the I was just another petite grandmother and these women were so beautiful so strong and I let you know in this day that the beauty I was seeing was the inner beauty and being express that you know of course in their activities. In a word they would die.

AMT: And there was also a sense of belonging wasn't it?

AW: Self-respect, determination. You had a purpose. So in the end all that is said Marcia Elford reason or worse. And so when I start approaching these sisters with this silliness for crying out loud you know nieces when they're talking about revolution and commuter digging or protecting the community and protecting seniors. So there's a in our in our way elders like how you know.

AMT: So if we follow your thread, you embrace what the Black Panthers believe in and by this time like you've gone to Angola prison I think twice you've been in and out but now you're back because they fingerprinted you in this other thing and now you're going back. You are going in as a man who's changed by what he's learned from the Black Panthers. You actually say.

AW: I actually joined a Black Panther party. At the time when I was returning back man hours or a time back and two and who are those are the see the Agios call BP parish prison says they'll acquire their reputation as a militant in New York. There were no days in it that anyone near them moved towards the Maglaj because should there be a black n sworded here issued out in Juarez between a chaplet of black at the pointy end and I created this particular year in their members as a black power point or be in-house DBA. So when I was retiring and processed in the old PDR the mag the put me on a deal with the papers and it was dead Rackley a giant bag Black Panther party.

AMT: You write essentially when you got back to Angola that time that you end up staying in there for decades. "I was a black man with a long prison sentence ahead of me. Inside however, everything had changed. I had morals, principles and values I never had before. I would never be a criminal again.

AW: Yes. It was a concious decision, a concious choice on my part.

AMT: And that was problematic, wasn't it? Because you started an anti-rape gang. You actually tried to help people.

AW: Yeah Arma Wallace and I were both in Angola at the same time. Now what about anything left to say. Tell me when we actually found the answer recognize Chesbrough the Black Panther Party in a prison. Are you know we farm any Rieves Squier's then tried to stab you sexually Markdale guy guy an hour now we are now as gas freelance views now routine RDL at Priddis Delphin exploitation. Corruption in any administration here fires Deleware designated for prison PA police minister would disappear. Fool Klingman were never aliquid and so order was a type of Dare's we are able always say were you that did jam and so we were tried to bridge a gap between now and black go. Well prisoners.

AMT: So the area where black prisoners were held in Angola was separate from the area where white prisoners were.

AW: Yes, there was, they called it a walkway. Its gas incar there was it was schol a what it called the world because La la Crete will weigh in on a sad day. Housing Units for Dharma tours tour unit it so therefore issuing it. Well I wait. Oh prisoners were hars any other units are pieing walnut and okay. Why are we are black prisoners was so hard now.

AMT: So Albert Woodfox, that was the Angola prison you were in when you start organising the anti-rape gangs and looking for rights and trying to help prisoners and the guards weren't happy, but neither were black prison gangs who were actually doing the sex slave and the raping.

AW: Yeah

AMT: So nobody really liked you, except the people.

AW: Well we wouldn't have been able to start the party. That we are where we wouldn't have been able to start to jab at that the boy it people you know are dead now are rallied to what we were trying to do that will drown people with.

AMT: But the people with power both prison gangs, they didn't.

AW: Oh the security staff because we were challenging their power. How could this day have they didn't go we were Chalion they are now an administration we were Jerseyan the corruption in Beko reboot we again raise questions about war. Well you know what come when the state but you send money for less you say Paul Jap's n is still present probably he getting blarney you know stuff like there was some other food there. We are buying. Is is Nabb voice Foys agree. You know why we live on are Pridmore plantation where the appropriate Braider every type of food are you know you don't want need and saw dawdler the coward days we were chairless you are inadequate clothing Diarmid tourist here and all screens Maschine as with these lab in your no n n guess are types of corruption in our lives. Tell you there was no social robbery and there was no.You dreamed up Praga 300 free people in a crowd of five to six thousand prisoners.

AMT: And you were also challenging the gangs who were hurting people and holding them as sex slaves?

AW: Yeah.

AMT: Which brings us to April 17th of 1972, that day a guard by the name of Brent Miller was killed. What happened that day?

AW: Well you know like any other man in nature you know blew a whistle. The week Aerobat by the same bring it forward again for all you know who got in a war. And no prior to going to work Dibb Lauder was a fool for Chas and sure when we got to the security gate right before you get a Dannion how they scab their bad Agy go back to the diameter is a you know so we were a giant Avodart n at deg I laid down and take a nap maybe a half an hour or so they blew the whistle eh. You know Dale was screaming in n Utzon in a racist profanity and stuff and you know it all in Aerobat other dancers in a line up on a walkway way you know. Ed weap us with this stuff roads lead on a now. But you know we've got our. We did see that dance and our are in all so we we proceeding in this long lag towards was Skala clothed in Rome which is at a six year gap white between the housing you are where you Lulea at any day now an hour or maybe 15 20 minutes ya. You know the present Grece by Kig the air. N. N o. You know they found security men murdered are scared the dead in n Pannu Annie.

AMT: And they arrested you?

AW: Well yeah Radelet you know I'll know maybe hours sore lay there you know oh I went into Claudy room why they were interrogating prisoners any saws outwalk give when it is sherriffs of to get stuck a gun in my face and say yeah you man them black panthers n you seriously some ab load raise out of car Sauers terrified ballout nag naggin let the M C R L R parade I was um you know Maggard gun and fees in on l'air you cure cured him Manam like Watchtower McKeel what's occurred to me in I mean I knew with Evernham were them that man up you know give them the impression you know N shore you know a couple of em came from around how did this clown a year and a B me keep me in a tall ma clause of stop in now do it all and a pile lend you know UK has gone down in club the you are gan Archinard dreads unstuff and gave me a raggedy jumpsuit which was standard way for the day. You only send me to the day you are dead. You would get some nag to slice of Breitkreuz cams a day and so it is very hard very brutal and you know Hardy put it removed we are the rugby is and I'll let out to sea. And so I say let's me for to me here 15 or more prisoners jammed in our Taban in the dungeon. Yeah. How can I get in. Put me in a cell. They put me in the shower all by myself. I was in my house before in tap prison PA police under armed guard. Now put in the dungeon but they still are being put in the air with us. One of the cells was glazed in his shell by Marcel in our leady they were bringing people in and they were being the men standing there men. You know when a guard roll up brought him upstairs to the cellblock area they would put them in a cellar and the next day was 18 hours transformed from the dungeon shower. Tour if you've ever seen Peter Gawler there's a big white building that gate is carthorse Arissa is mean to me receptionist so they used a process that people who come into the prison in their own are required required this day in their building. These are dirty days before you went in a papper lesion. So all CCR was in hars CCR and Dederer were being housed in CCRC building. So you know I was brought to us Aceh and when we guarded the stairway you know ours have been then started in Dresden and then after there. One of the captors as we ever forward you like house an back apart from me on. So they probably are Mahmoudi bastard in bleeding and you know I was sworn stuff so and so they took me upstairs and put me on a meteor.

AMT: All because again they were accusing you of having killed this guard. And go back to the FBI. FBI was carrying out a covert campaign called Co-intel Pro, to try to neutralize what they cite as radical groups and of course that you were a target because you represented the Black Panthers. All of that played in to your own defense. What kind of evidence was presented against you?

AW: Really nothing. No sound evidence. Bricklin no Saule never. It was a bloody Fehring upright found on the dole. Mellors blood never tried to identify was whilst it couldn't match it to me and the other man was trapped wed been charged. This stab me in the air you know and now are dead now more all he ratline now to down 16 up. Our new attorney general was zeed leg and the lack of ever Dare's are missing over there stuff. A You know the case was dear ayenst with a day off with a r a is called nolo contendere. Legally you that pleading guilty tried to cram he said to stay there are enough evidence to bring in Accra and so you know I resisted for about six months. You know my town is a you know I radically you know all disad the gate.

AMT: You have always maintained your innocence, you had nothing to do with that, but you and two other men, you become the Angola 3.

AW: Hammer Wallace, who we lost AM or wireless who we Lars tree dowdy one is free in this case resolved.

AMT: He died of cancer three days after he got out and the other man Robert King.

AW: Rober King who's alive and well and still my best friend and comrade. Well then you know I'm still my best friend in Kamarudin we do you know make trips and we don't speak about linear minute days with emphasis on sound theory.

AMT: So let's talk about this. You said at the beginning we're talking about a six by nine foot cell.

AW: Six by nine by twelve. Twelve feet high, six feet wide, nine feet long.

AMT: What's in there?

AW: Two beds attached to the wall. Barbiere is a test yet a while there's where they used ever porcelain and Zake in camo on a bed wall and there's a low melting away badge on a sash so you really I have LeBert varied natural paired way to move up and down assayer end.

AMT: And is this in a row of cells like that?

AW: 15 cells to a tier.

AMT: Can you see the other guys?

AW: Yes. What was unique about the soud chair in Angola is dead you know moles salad. Terry have completely enclosed Crag Creek cells were there and Dewhirst up are the cells in Ngor the halo was system at the front. So when you or someone else came out for your dead one hour the either 24 hours you were able to see the people in the cells and talk with them if you wanted to you've got CastingWords Grigson and you can only like stand in the middle of the hall. You couldn't go walk up close to the cells stuff lay in.

AMT: But that was only one hour a day?a

AW: Yes, in solitary, you only get one hour every twenty four hour period.

AMT: What would you do for 23 hours every day?

AW: Well when they first put us in there, we had nothing to do. One in four years for the Senate. We actually had a deal. You are there Louella I think about Taree under way at Taree T-shirt cells are all under Shea's are pairs are slippers if you hear em in a jumpsuit now or would appear in because of fraud tierce is hardish tragus and stuff you know we wear would force change in South TerraCom bam to include poisonous clothing bugs from disease. Read the players any Rackley at about 10 years they put TB CSAR in near you know work a y out for. Absolutely not. No amount of clothing or ties as we referred to are TV. Ken relieved of pressure I'd be in hell in a Nambour 6 cell 23 hours a day with no end in sight. And the pressure is tremendous you know.

AMT: You talk about pacing.

AW: Yes well where's my ma we are dealing with the claustrophobic attacks.

AMT: What would happen. Tell me about that.

AW: Well you know if you're mad it's hard to describe claustrophobia tech if you hear one point word Moseby Bhave or Jarre Raghda. You know you feel as though there was a closing airness down to very close on your bady Villa's door are there smiling near its highs discarded a breed and you become disoriented. You know more as most people panic and observe alal and men go insane. I've seen men cut themselves are buried the fingers up for it or whatever they get out. The good the Haspel Immy office for Koplow us. I've seen men kill themselves because the pressure being in you know Hellenist in their Nam bass Xia in a way no no you'd Ah you have no idea which you can do it out you add the total and complete moisty of security.

AMT: So you're in there and you're claustrophobic, what's your skin feel like?

AW: It's difficult you know. Dibakar you know you feel like that the very atmosphere itself is pressing down on you. Enis Dave Carbery you know if you disorientate you know you used light up you're up as down down is sideways forward. That type of disorientation you know.

AMT: And you would pace?

AW: Yes.

AMT: You write about having like you were so anxious you would start sweating and you'd literally leave puddles on the floor.

AW: Well it was during summer months when I would get a claustrophobic attack. I now get a class for a good time. Oh you live because we're you close for you. I would usually scrub down to my underwear suntan naked and just pace up and down the sea. And because of how hard it in the land the TAM you know I never could and you know I never knew if it was bad manners or five hours. You just keep pacing Elise and the aid you keep raising and you keep telling yourself you're doing the right at this pace and you know any better. You know I can like you can breed again then the atmosphere can of doing that was my old bag and the place to start my days to be exact and you know you know you don't look at your watch when it happens. Are you in it doing look at you watch when is or by lack you know. You know it has been now i or hours at a time that I'd just pace.

AMT: And that would be bad enough if it happened once, but you were in there for so long.

AW: Yeah.

AMT: How would you, what did you tell yourself? What did you tell yourself to keep on breathing to not kill yourself like the other guys?

AW: Breathe, you know, this will pass. Read you know is this war papers you know you may see it to yourself thousand different ways you know as this is hard to Kanaly give you a specific example but bizarrely it comes down there you tell yourself dead you know all everything is going to be all right. The walls are going to go back. Yours bad this and you dig about. You try to cast treat our date you know or I in my case you know my mother my sister my brothers you know stuff like the stuff that you know made the world of me a home with AG is glad or relieved boffer fun there's tremendous pressure in our PWI me was Lagon after Tellum spent three hours saying you better have gawn your bag yarded n draft night ve y I 6B y now ve Soyer NS try this day is that square as long as you care.

AMT: You spent so much time in solitarg confinement. I mean you admit that you were a bad guy doing stuff early on, but then you stopped and you end up in this prison where people are treated like animals and we all know that it's documented. And inside that prison you're in solitary and we know the United Nations says that solitary confinement is a form of torture. In Canada there's a real debate about the use of solitary confinement in our prison system. There are courts that are ordering provinces to stop using it. We have stories in this country not that many years, but terrible stories of treatment of people. What do you want people to understand? You know some people still think that's a useful form of detention.

AW: Well if there's a form of detention, there would be a positive as a farm and intelligence there would be ah ah partitive resolves from being put this out. DEAR SAD in Maw's Rudel n farmer targer Des Narde physical because you know there is nad there's no physical pain giggler by you. My deep emotional pain and the meadow toll it takes on you are a break you know if you nad logging up to find a way to avoid yes to the pressure of being here. Our houses are Namba as six. It destroyed destroyed your sense of self. It destroys your humanity you know you can. Otherwise there's absolutely no positive penalogical reason for using solitary confinement, espeically for decades.

AMT: The Black Panther Party really doesn't exist any more, but when you look at race and law enforcement in America, do you think there's a need today for an organization like the Black Panthers?

AW: Yeah. Racism may put on a shirt and a tie and a jacket. Instead of being brutal when I left society, it's coated now. us are Sherritt in a town. Jack Esca the beer Bruhl like it was one allows that you it was called it. Now the Eudy is go n I n n forgive me AB. There is seldom you disagree with us. Do bleed they call you know the they are the times they use their mean saved same dang. Once you understand where the pain is and the horrid Eliason mojada of the world is Selvin a being used in error then was superefficient prob worse with a leg of the black brother Denin it being but the root cause of the Merric orgies in it. As usual in a were racism s systemic application of racism was still very much the fibre of America.

AMT: Are you angry?

AW: Yeah. How can you, you know King has a saying, you can't dip a man in waste and not expect him to stink when he get up. So yeah I'm angry. UK dip a man in ways in the iceberg in this Steg when he give up. So you are making it up here for my life away from me. They prosecuting me now because of some I dine but because of my political beliefs because I refused to stop being a human being I refused to Sgarbi men I refused to stop being a political a so their solution was dead wers the put me in solitaire confinement and then Marcial was made to be a dead Jaim but out. Then tour school and I'd drive into a log Glamis I'd try and do a debate on. I tried it in error doing that it was nad design it be Enis guilt of shrivelling away you know the old character build more approachable. I made a commitment to be the kind of human being I am now, you know.

AMT: It's so amazing to hear your voice. You got a very powerful voice.

AW: Thank you.

AMT: And a very powerful story. Thank you for coming in here and talkin to me today.

AW: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

AMT: Albert Woodfox, he's the author of Solitary: My Story of Transformation and Hope. He's with me in our Toronto studio.

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'Get used to being disrupted': Expert warns of the financial implications of climate change

Guests: Colleen Mercer Clarke, Jason Thistlethwaite

AMT: Hello. I'm Anna Maria Tremonti and you're listening to The Current.

[Music: Theme]

AMT: A new study from scientists at Environment and Climate Change Canada made headlines this week. It warned Canada is warming more quickly than the rest of the world, but William Josie doesn't need a new study to tell them him that. He is a Yukon elder. He has seen caribou and moose moving further north and he says that he and his family can see weather changing at their camp north of the community of Old Crow.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: Lately, six, seven years now we've been getting really wet summers and that goes right into the fall and just before freeze up and yeah moisture freezes with our food.

AMT: Over the winter Karabell usually eat lichen. Without that food source the herds seem to be moving north and William Josie, who's also the executive director of the Vuntu Gwitchin First Nation told the CBC's Heather Avery, that means hunters will need to change their approach as well.

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE: They're going to have to adapt and that's what they're doing and they're staying up there where they still have food and it's cold and they don't have very far to calf. I don't know what we're going to do. We may have to build a meat camp somewhere in the northern flats, but we're going to adapt, believe me.

AMT: Well across Canada, communities will need to find their own ways to adapt to climate change. We're going to be looking at what that means for Canadians in cities in just a few moments, but first Colleen Mercer Clarke is a marine ecologist who has spent nearly 40 years working with coastal communities facing rising seas. She's with us from Ottawa. Hi.

COLLEEN MERCER CLARKE: Hi. Good morning, Anna Maria.

AMT: What does the report tell us about what coastal communities in Canada are up against when it comes to climate change?

CMC: Well I think the focus has often been on the rising seas. Sea levels across the world will increase over the next 100 years and in Canada you know we'll be part of that.

AMT: The important thing to recognize about sea level rise is that the size of our country and our three very different coasts, sea level rise won't be the same everywhere. In parts of Canada like on the eastern coast of Canada in Nova Scotia and other parts of the Maritime provinces and in southern BC, we're going to see more significant changes to sea level than we will in some parts of the north where the land is still rebounding after glacial era. So that's the first thing, but the sea level rise oten is complicated when we get severe storms because storm surges build on top of the mean water levels. So storm surges from these increasingly severe frequent storms will drive water further inland than we've had it before. So it's been largely the dialogue in coastal communities has been about flooding up until now. But the important thing for coastal communities in Canada recognize who is there just like their sister and other communities throughout the rest of the country. They're going to face overland flooding from precipitation events and changes in the extremes of heat and cold sometimes drought sometimes wildfires. So while coastal communities have the unique aspect of sea level rise they share many of the same other anticipated impacts.

AMT: So can you give us a sense of what kind of infrastructure is at risk?

CMC: Anything that's lying really close to the main water line. We've had a propensity in recent years to become quite complacent with our ability to monitor weather and so on. So we've built a lot closer to the water than our ancestors in many areas have. So any structures that are closer to that mean water and high water mark are in potential danger. And we have a lot of bridge ports, dwarfs, flip ways that may be affected as well.

AMT: And ecologists talk about soft infrastructure, the stuff in our oceans that protect our coasts. What is that? How is that at risk?

CMC: Well I'm also a landscape architect Anna Maria, so we use the term natural assets. One of the things and we saw this with Hurricane Katrina down in New Orleans is that as they lost their offshore islands and their wetlands, they became more vulnerable to hurricanes, storm surge because those islands weren't there to help dampen that change of water level. So we have the same sorts of situations if in Canada, we'll see coastal erosion in softer sedimentary areas and reforming. We'll see a loss of salt marshes as water levels rise. Salt marshes can accommodate some degree in changes in water levels, but not continually encroaching and permanent changes in water levels. So these different bouncing ecosystems that we've depended on for years are definitely a threat. In some areas salt marshes will have anywhere to move to. They won't be able to migrate back into the land because they'll be up against cliffs or bluffs.

AMT: How do you go from marine ecology to landscape architecture? What was catalyst there?

CMC: I get that question a lot. I started ecology in Newfoundland in the 70s working environmental assessment with oil and gas. And one of the things about ecologists is we're great at observing and recording what's happening, but we don't really often get a chance the planning or a design table to help design a project that matches in step with the natural elements. So I went back to school and qualified as a landscape architect landscape architecture architects, we're not building architects, we're site architects. So we operate at the interface between the build and the natural environment and we held with selection sites and with the design of those sites so that it minimizes the impact to the natural environment and hopefully to enhance the cultural and socio economic benefits to humans as well as the aesthetics. So it was largely to get a seat at that table, which I have had now for over 30 years.

AMT: And so you're looking at that through the lens of Climate Change. What have your studies on coastal communities told you because you've actually gone right down the coast haven't you, looking at this beyond Canada?

CMC: Yeah I've actually had the privilege of working with university teams in Canada and the Caribbean as from as far as Iqaluit in the Canadian north to a little village called Grande Rivere, the Caribbean coast of Trinidad where the leatherback sea turtles go to nest. And the interesting thing is that even though these eight communities that we worked with were on different potions had different environments and different cultural heritage as this year pretty much the same challenges as climate change comes for raising fees more severe weather and sometimes droughts sometimes heavy precipitation certainly interference with tourism with shipping and transportation with settlement parents. So it's a quite a few sharing situation.

AMT: And do we get it? Like do the people in those communities and along those coasts get it?

CMC: Sometimes the people who have been the most affected by severe weather in recent times so that's their collective memory now. They get it, but for the most part we're anticipating that this is a problem for future generations. And the critical thing understand here is that decisions many decisions that are being made in planning and designing communities today will affect structures programs and procedures that will be in place 50 years from now. So it's really important now just to apply and and design for the changes we're seeing now but also for the changes that we are anticipating are coming. The other thing to note is that it's not all going to happen in 2100. This is all happening on a progressive scale. So things will be different. In 10 years they'll be different. In 20 years they'll be different in 30 years and it's that pace of change that can be a challenge. These are not simple problems. They're very complex problems.

AMT: Okay and we need to get on them now. I'm going to pick up this part with our next guest. Colleen Mercer Clarke, thank you.

CMC: You're welcome.

AMT: Colleen Mercer Clarke, chair of the Canadian Society of Landscape Architects Committee on Climate Adaptation. She's in Ottawa. Well the effects of climate change are maybe easy or easier to envision in the wild, but our cities is where they will be felt by the greatest number of people. My next guest worries our cities are not remotely prepared for what may happen in the next decade in Canada if we don't do more to fight climate change, Jason Thistlethwaite is an assistant professor of environment and business at the University of Waterloo's faculty of the environment. He's in Kitchener-Waterloo. Hi.

JASON THISTLETHWAITE: Good morning.

AMT: So where are the risks to Canadian cities when we look at this climate change report?

JT: So there's a high confidence in the report that high intensity rain events in urban areas are likely to increase in frequency. What this means is that if you thought living in a city was expensive now, climate change is only going to make it worse. Cities are by far the most vulnerable political jurisdictions in Canada climate change, but have the least amount of resources to deal with them. They have a very small source of tax revenue, mainly property taxes, compared to the other levels of government which can draw on a much wider tax base via sales and income taxes. Inevitably what this means is that they're going to need to raise revenue to pay for things like the rebuilding of roads, upgrading stormwater systems, retrofitting old buildings with better air conditioning, and even in the most likely relocating property away from high risk areas.

AMT: So we're looking at more flooding like a drainage problem too, rgiht? We've got a lot of concrete.

JT: Yeah, cities present this very interesting challenge from the perspective of climate change. They have the highest concentrations of people, property and infrastructure and a large part of that of course is paved over. This is why in Canada we've seen a significant increase in urban flooding, so flooding that overwhelmed our stormwater systems and ends up in our basements. This is the reason why over the last 10 years or so water damage has replaced fire as a leading cause of insurance claims in Canada.

AMT: So how prepared are we with our urban infrastructure?

JT: The news in the report is by no means a surprise for cities. Most of our major cities in Canada actually have a plan for climate change. The challenge for them is implementing that plan. They don't have the resources to conduct important aspects of climate change adaptation that they need to help keep the cost down but also help protect vulnerable citizens. So we did a study in 2018 that looked at these plans and we found it less than 20 percent have any policy on risk reduction, only 11 percent have identified vulnerable areas, only 17 percent have identified vulnerable groups. This really explains what is in implementation deficit. They just don't have the resources to be able to make some of these big committments.

AMT: Okay, but what are we talking about here like subway systems, what happens with massive flooding? Like what about you know a lot of high rises, a lot of you know higher density living? Where are the electrical systems for these buildings? That kind of stuff. Are they vulnerable?

JT: Absolutely. I mean we saw this recently in Toronto with flooding in areas and buildings in the area of Parliament and Bloor. A lot of old buildings, particularly ones that contain a lot of people who are a lower income and socially economically vulnerable, are not built with today's building codes and standards and that actually leaves them quite exposed to some of these types of risks. Same with our infrastructure; our pipes and stormwater systems are all built based on historical standards, not built to withstand the types of climate change that we're likely to see in the future. So in addition to higher costs, get used to being disrupted, be it via transit or facing uncomfortable situations where you live.

AMT: Being disruptive, but what about like in our building more subways should we be doing that? What about you know the sewage pipe? Should they be bigger? Like should we be looking for accountability on these usually boring issues?

JT: Exactly right. I mean it's well known that the investments that go below the ground tend not to be as politically popular putting money towards the library or an arena. But this is an existential crisis and it's absolutely essential we flip that logic and start thinking about are infrastructure the way that the cities around us the roads and all of us as serving a significant public good and helping protect most of Canada's most vulnerable communities.

AMT: So when you talk about this and we talk about what we can do for climate change, this is really governmental stuff and you're making the point that it has to happen at all levels just because that's where the money. It's not actually at the lower level.

JT: Yeah municipalities are doing their part. They're definitely on the front lines of helping us prepare, but they don't have the resources. Ultimately this is going to come down to the upper tier governments, the provinces and the federal government, doing things that they haven't traditionally done in the past and that's investing in actions that help us prepare before the storm happens, help us before the risk manifests. And we know that this is a really difficult thing for governments to do. They tend to want to give out money after the event happens and once that money is paid out, it isn't in fact used to encourage rebuilding or preparing for climate change or the next type of future event.

AMT: Okay well Jason, we have to leave it there. Thank you for your time today.

JT: Thank you.

AMT: Jason Thistlethwaite is an assistant professor of environment and business at the University of Waterloo's faculty of environmental.

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April 3, 2019 Episode Transcript

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