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The AIH Transcript for March 29, 2019

Hosts: Megan Williams and Jeff Douglas

Prologue

MEGAN WILLIAMS: Hello I'm Megan William.

JEFF DOUGLAS: Good evening. I'm Jeff Douglass. This is As It Happens.

[Music: Theme]

JD: Tonight...

MW: Pressing plays the thing. Jody Wilson-Raybould's recording of her phone conversation with the PM's top bureaucrat has Canadians asking when the government will make the right call.

JD: Avant the avant-garde. In the sexist world of film, the late Agnes Varda was overshadowed by her male peers -- but true cinephiles believe she didn't just do things first, she did them best.

MW: Spreading unease over spreading disease. A county in New York state declares a state of emergency in the midst of a measles outbreak -- banning unvaccinated children from public places.

JD: The late shift. A thousand jobs will be gone from the Fiat-Chrysler plant in Windsor, Ontario -- and one long-time auto worker says that will be devastating for the entire city.

MW: Breaking news. CEO Tim Cook promises that Apple's new "digital newsstand" will be great for the industry -- but Apple's huge cut of profits has our guest suggesting news outlets should gauge the risk of serious gouge.

JD: And lapse of luxury. A trial in New York raises the curtain on the dramatic tale of a fake socialite who is accused of scamming wealthy people -- but our guest has already turned her story into a stage play. As It Happens. The Friday Edition. Radio that guesses she would have felt like a breath of fresh heiress.

[Music: Theme]

Part 1: Playwright brings story of alleged fake heiress Anna Sorokin to the stage

Jody Wilson-Raybould documents

Guest: Rosemary Barton

JD: The Liberal government may think it's heard enough from Jody Wilson-Raybould. But the former Attorney General has found another way to have her say. This afternoon, the House of Commons Justice Committee released a recording that was submitted by Ms. Wilson-Raybould; it is of a conversation she had with Michael Wernick, the Clerk of the Privy Council. Mr. Wernick has denied allegations that he pressured her to make it possible for SNC-Lavalin to avoid a criminal prosecution. Here is some of the tape.

SOUNDCLIP

MICHAEL WERNICK: The PM wants to be able to say that he has tried everything he can -- you know within a legitimate toolbox. So he is quite determined, quite firm, that he wants to know why the DPA route -- which Parliament provided for -- isn't being used. And I think he is going to find a way to get it done one way or another. So he is in that kind of mood. And I wanted you to be aware of that.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: Okay.

MICHAEL WERNICK: You know he doesn't want to do anything that's outside the box of what's legal or proper. He just wants to understand more at this point why DPA root isn't taken up in this root. So he is thinking about bringing in somebody like Bev McLachlin to give him advice on this or to give you advice -- if you want to feel more comfortable that you're not doing anything that is inappropriate or outside the frame.

JODY WILSON-RAYBOULD: I am 100 percent confident that I am doing nothing inappropriate. Again, I'm confident in where I am at. And this is a constitutional principle of prosecutorial independence that Michael I have to say including this conversation -- previous conversations that I've had with the prime minister and many other people around it, it's entirely inappropriate and it is political interference.

JD: That was recording made by Jody Wilson-Raybould, former attorney general, of a conversation she had last year with the clerk of the Privy Council, Michael Wernick. It is the tape that the Parliamentary Press Gallery has been waiting for with bated breath. Rosemary Barton is of course the co-host of CBC's The National. We reached her in Ottawa.

MW: Rosemary is this tape a game changer in this story?

ROSEMARY BARTON: It's hard to say because the story has had so many twists and turns, and has been so wildly unpredictable. But if this tape was supposed to be the damning evidence that Jody Wilson-Raybould had been threatened or spoken to in an aggressive way in order to change her mind, it is most certainly not that. Throughout the 17 minutes you do hear Michael Wernick -- the clerk of the Privy Council -- for a few weeks is still continuing to make the case that the prime minister is determined, concerned, wants to know why this plea deal isn't being looked at and that he is worried for a variety of reasons but most notably because of the company and because of jobs. But you also hear Jody Wilson-Raybould say that yes while she feels the conversation she's having is inappropriate given that there have been other conversations leading up to this point in December that she also knows that the DPA is legal and lawful and that she too knows that this is an issue of jobs. What she seems to be concerned about throughout the call is the perception that this will look like political interference. And there I would just pause to remind people that Jody Wilson-Raybould was recording that conversation and knew that -- whereas Michael Wernick did not. So I'm not going to suggest motivation but she certainly knew that what she was saying could possibly end up with us at the media at some point.

MW: Right. Now Wernick did use some more forceful language. I mean he talked about the prime minister and Jody Wilson-Raybould at loggerheads. He talked about this possibly leading to a collision course. And Jody Wilson-Raybould also said that she was not under any illusion how the PM has or gets what he wants -- and that she was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

RB: There was a suggestion for sure that the prime minister had a position on the issue -- that he would have preferred, I think it's fair to say, for it to go one way or another. There's also an admission that the tools were not his -- that there was very little the prime minister could do other than get these phone calls to happen and these questions to be answered. I think if this phone call does one thing it certainly removes Michael Wernick from the story in my mind. He is clearly acting here as the go-between for the prime minister and the former attorney general. And it is very clear that the prime minister is perhaps stubbornly sticking to the idea that this new tool -- which had never been used before -- should and could be applied to this case. Whereas Jody Wilson-Raybould is determined that it should not be -- that it would look as though they were interfering politically in the case. And she says she was attempting to protect the prime minister through that.

MW: Right. Now, Jody Wilson-Raybould submitted this recording with written documents. What does she say about her reasons for taping the call?

RB: She says that she's never done it before, and she never did it after. That normally she has a staff member with her when taking these kinds phone calls, and that staff member takes notes. But she also makes it very clear during that phone call and throughout the documents that this was an issue that she was recording. From the moment this started to the moment it ended, she was taking notes -- copious notes -- and creating a timeline because she clearly suspected that this was going to be a problem. That this might create problems for her and perhaps she needed to protect herself. But she also offers -- finally -- an explanation as to why she stayed in Cabinet, and then why she finally quit. She says that she asked the prime minister directly whether she was being moved in cabinet ultimately to Veterans Affairs because she refused to issue this DPA. The Prime Minister's office and the prime minister said no. So she decided she would stay in Cabinet, take that job, and continue on. She says that it was only on February 11th after meeting with the prime minister in Vancouver when he publicly came out and was asked about the government's behaviour around SNC-Lavalin -- and he suggested that she was okay with the way the government had handled it that that was the moment that she resigned because it was simply not true.

MW: What kind of impact do you think this is going to have on people as to whether or not they believe Jody Wilson-Raybould or the prime minister?

RB: I'm not sure it's going to have any impact at all. You know I think that if you believe that Jody Wilson-Raybould was standing up for a principle of independent judiciary, and that she felt this was interference and pressure -- this would probably reinforce your position. But that if you felt that this was a normal conversation, a public policy, that the prime minister -- as the prime minister has the right to continue asking questions -- then you're probably going to be okay with this tape and with the things that she has revealed today which ultimately is the whole problem with this story. There is no way to say this was right and this was wrong. And Jody Wilson-Raybould makes it clear today as well that she has nothing further to add. So it's possible that if we want to know more clearly how/what happened and how we should perceive it -- that we are going to need to hear from other people and for now there is simply no avenue for that to happen.

MW: Okay. And how do you think this is going to affect how Prime Minister Trudeau decides whether or not Jody Wilson-Raybould will continue to sit in the Liberal caucus?

RB: There's already a lot of rumblings from MPs last week after the Jane Philpott interview with Maclean's. Into this week they've all been in their ridings hearing about the issue at doors. They are becoming increasingly impatient. But there was concern how the prime minister would be perceived if he booted Jody Wilson-Raybould from cabinet. I think it's fair to say now that someone that was quietly recording a conversation with the country's top bureaucrat that might be a trust issue that the prime minister and other caucus members could point to as a pretty good reason for her to be removed.

MW: Okay. Thanks very much Rosemary. Great to talk to you.

RB: My pleasure.

JD: Rosemary Barton is one of the hosts of The National on CBC TV. We reached her in Ottawa. And do stay tuned to CBC Radio for more on this story or you can go to cbc.ca/news.

[Music]

Fiat/Chrysler worker

Guest: Gillian Laflamme

JD: Another round of job losses for auto workers in Ontario. This time, it was workers in Windsor -- who got the news that 1500 jobs will be lost at the Fiat-Chrysler plant there. This announcement comes just a few months after GM announced that almost 3000 people would be laid off in Oshawa, Ontario. Now in Windsor, it is not the entire plant -- but one shift will be canceled. But it is going to still have ripple effects for the entire city. Gillian Laflamme is a long time worker at that Fiat-Chrysler plant. We reached her in Windsor.

MW: Gillian you're just getting ready to go in for your shift. How do you think it's going to feel to walk into the plant to start work today?

GILLIAN LAFLAMME: It's weighing on me very heavily to walk into that plant today. I did not expect this. It is a shock. It is devastating to a lot of people not just who work there but our whole community.

MW: You were at the union hall meeting after the layoffs were announced last night. Can you tell me what some of the people were saying there?

GL: It really surprised me. Because I said bye to my kids, then I got in the car to drive there. Halfway there, I was in tears. I started crying. And I thought, what's going on? But it's like I didn't want to face them -- maybe because once I walked in there and saw them that would make it real. And then when I got there yeah the tears were there. Because it's not just me -- it's going to affect so many people. So many people's lives are on hold right now. They've been on hold with these layoffs a little bit. Our new hires, I talk to them every single night and I mean they're wondering if they should have kids. They want to have kids -- and they are like, I don't know if I should have a kid -- (when) I might not have a job.

MW: Now Windsor isn't a huge city. How will the loss of 1500 jobs affect the city do you think?

GL: My understanding is that for every job at Windsor Assembly plant -- there are at least seven spin off jobs. Even when we go off for layoff -- retail feels it, the gas station feel it, right? Tim Hortons feels it. The last time we were off for the retooling, we were off for three months -- and I think the Windsor Star or somebody was talking to Windsor Star and they said the only people that really did well was maybe Home Hardware or Home Depot because we had time to do you know maybe some yard work or do something in our house that we needed to do. You know then we knew we were going back to work. This time, you know if we lose that third shift it's not going to be like that.

MW: Fiat-Chrysler has said the decision to get rid of the third shift is about -- quote, "better aligning production with global demand." Can you translate that business speak for us -- I mean what do you think is really behind the layoffs?

GL: I don't know if I can. I mean it's say all, from what I hear -- we go into this kind of 10 year slowdown in the auto industry and we are at the beginning of that. People come out and they buy vehicles. And we're at that point where they don't need them. They don't need them right now. And I don't know if the demand for the type of car -- that too, right? That's changing as well. People don't always realize they need a minivan until they have a family.

MW: Now Premier Ford says he will do everything he can to try and save jobs in Ontario -- auto manufacturing jobs. Do you believe him?

GL: Do I believe him? No, I don't believe him. But I have hope. I hope that something happens there. For me, coming from him I think it's just words. I do hope that he is pressured enough that he does step up and he does help us somehow. But I mean there's GM to help as well, right? Like that's the thing. We were getting all fired up to the fight for GM -- we didn't think this was going to hit us.

MW: You put 20 years in at the plant. How will this shift loss affect you?

GL: Well first, I do some union awareness classes with a lot of new hires every single day. So first is they will lose their jobs -- and if they do, that horrifies me, right. Because they want to start their lives. They want to work hard. They want to get on with life. So that is just devastating right there. It breaks my heart. You know there's people who have lost their jobs, lost their jobs, lost their jobs...who got this job. And they might be 50, and they're like finally! Finally something good is going to happen for me! Well now they're on the cutting block again. They're middle-aged -- where do they get a break? You know chances are if we lose a shift, I will still have a job -- but I'll be the new hire again. It's frustrating. Our community will be devastated though.

MW: It sounds like we're going to be seeing repercussions in Windsor.

GL: Yeah definitely. That's why we have to fight for these. We have to fight to hang on to this. We have to do something. You know? And we're going to. I mean it's the beginning of people becoming aware of what's going on and I think doing whatever they can to get their community, their government, getting the union at the forefront, and getting everybody involved.

MW: Gillian thanks so much for speaking to me today and good luck.

GL: Thank you very much.

JD: Gillian Laflamme works at the Fiat-Chrysler plant in Windsor, Ontario. And that is where we reached her.

[Music]

Fake socialite

Guest: Joseph Charlton

JD: It did not take long after Anna Delvey landed in Manhattan for people to take notice. She was charming. She picked up the tab at high-end bars. She told people she was a German heiress working on opening a massive art space. Well, a court in New York is hearing this week that she was in fact penniless. Her real name is Anna Sorokin. And she stands accused of scamming people out of about a quarter of a million dollars. You may have heard her story. It has been splashed on the pages of Vanity Fair and New York Magazine. It has fascinated producers Shonda Rhimes and Lena Dunham -- who are both creating shows out of the story. But Joseph Charlton beat them to it. His play "Anna X" just finished a run in London. We reached Mr. Charlton in Manchester, England.

MW: Joseph what is it about Anna Sorokin that made you want to write a play out of her story?

JOSEPH CHARLTON: Well the first thing I heard about Anna Sorokin were some quotes when she was awaiting trial in Rikers about a year ago. And the thing that really drew me to her was her kind of apparent defiance about what she'd been involved. And then she broadly kind of said, if I had the chance I would do it again and I would do it more. And she was referring to her kind of attempted grand larceny -- and she was completely unflinching.

MW: How did she do it? And how did she come to New York City with virtually nothing and create this high flying social life for herself?

JC: So as far as I understand it there's this Instagram of hers which starts about four or five years ago and it's called "theannadelvey." And it's really this kind of monument to a fake life of someone taking worldwide photos, and luxury handbags, amazing holidays, contemporary arts. And that was really how she facilitated this fake life really -- (she) was harnessing the internet really and showing off a kind of life mixing with quite a high cache of people in Paris and in New York. That's what was really fascinating about this story to fictionalize is that there's still a level of mystery as to how exactly she did it. But I think the cornerstone of it was the Internet and being able to found an identity for yourself online.

MW: She's on trial now. She's accused of stiffing luxury hotels, a friend who went on a lavish trip with her to Morocco, and even a bank. How did she suck in all these people?

JC: So she was at the kind of top clubs -- kind of out and about quite a lot. At that point she was kind of famous for tipping very generously everywhere she went which is part of her kind of folklore appeal I think -- that she was kind of giving to Uber drivers and she was taking on bottle service at these bars and throwing around hundreds. And I think everyone just sort of presumes she was loaded because of that. And then it kind of escalated to this fancy -- and she decided she wanted to start her own art foundation which was going to be a physical space in a sort of beautiful medieval facade building on Park Avenue. She had designs that she would actually get a loan for this 21 million dollar building. And in order to do that she started writing bad cheques for one account to another. And she was quite close to actually unlocking this loan. And I mean that's kind of partly the extraordinary thing about the story is that she very nearly could have moved from being someone who was you know lying and making it up to actually becoming a fully-fledged entrepreneur. And I guess that's why it's an interesting story is that you know you have obviously all this cash floating around and you know in the age of Billy McFarland and Fyre Festival -- it's interesting that we have so many people that say they are going to do something and they don't have the means to do it. But you know if she had pulled it off, she would have been a massive deal. She wasn't really that far off from going from having nothing to really having something.

MW: I mean it's amazing. One of her alleged victims -- Rachel Williams -- who's the one who went on that trip to Morocco with her was quoted as saying this, "it was a magic trick. I'm embarrassed to say that I was one of the props and the audience too. Anna's was a beautiful dream of New York like one of those nights that never seems to end...and then the bill arrives." How much of this was about other people's projections of a certain life that New York City or a lot of sort of glamorous urban scenes represent?

JC: There's probably an irony to the fact that a lot of people caught up in her net probably weren't actually New Yorkers or native New Yorkers. And I think that image of New York as this wonderful aspirational place -- everyone was kind of slaughtered at the altar of that aspiration really. And Anna Sorokin herself says kind of the only thing that she regretted is ripping off her friend -- who you just quoted there. But I mean you know a lot of the other people that she was taking for a ride were more private equity firms that she was trying to get the better of. And I think that's why there's been such a kind of public outpouring of support and love for her.

MW: Was there any appeal to you? I mean did you have some sympathy for her?

JC: Of course. Yeah. I think the sheer kind of guile and in terms of someone who you fictionalize, at the moment she's kind of this rare thing -- which is a silent celebrity. There's no videos of her talking online. We don't know what she sounds (like). And the only real history of her is through her Instagram page. It's kind of a romantic story. And I think when she gets out eventually I'm sure she'll have achieved the kind of infamy/fame that she was probably always after.

MW: You mentioned the Fyre Festival which was another scam and there have been movies made about that as well. Why do you think people are so fascinated by stories of con artists?

JC: I think in a world where it seems as though so many things are kind of rigged in terms of the ruling classes favour and social structures are kind of immutable -- immovable -- I think the idea that you can have someone who has nothing and can turn it into something takes us back to a kind of Victorian era kind of magic of pulling a rabbit from a hat. It's about these people who would try to summon something from nothing. And then it was also a kind of morality tale that actually it doesn't work out for them. So these kind of stories have got kind of a double appeal.

MW: Joseph thanks so much for speaking with me. Fascinating story.

JC: Thank you. Thanks very much.

JD: Joseph Charlton wrote a play about fake heiress Anna Sorokin called "Anna X." We reached him in Manchester.

[Music]

Her’s

SOUNDCLIP

VOICE 1: In terms of where we are right now -- I feel like maybe we're on the cusp of something right now. Maybe we're...

VOICE 2: We like to think we are.

VOICE 1: We tell ourselves every day when we wake up: I'm on the cusp of something.

JD: Stephen Fitzpatrick and Audan Laading -- who made up the Liverpool duo Her's -- from a 2017 interview. In the time since that conversation, Her's released their debut album "Invitation to Her's." Answered countless questions about the apostrophe between the R and the S in their name -- which they said was both "important" and "massively incorrect." They played a hugely successful tour across the UK and were in the midst of their second North American tour. All 19 of their scheduled concerts were already sold out. So they were past the cusp. Things were really starting to happen. Last night, the band and their tour manager were on their way to a show in Santa Ana, California, when a pick-up truck going the wrong way hit their van head on. All three men were killed. Stephen Fitzpatrick was 24-years-old. Audan Laading was 25. In a statement, their label, Heist of Hit, said -- quote, "To say they were close would be an underestimation of a friendship that was genuinely beautiful to witness. They loved one another like brothers." And you can hear that friendship in the music of Her's -- the way Mr. Fitzpatrick's voice and guitar played off Mr. Laading's bass. The way their songs about love and loss, and Mr. Fitzpatrick's former cat, combined wit and yearning.

[Music]

Part 2: Agnès Varda's art will 'live forever,' says friend and collaborator

Agnes Varda obit

Guest: Julia Fabry

SOUNDCLIP

[Movie dialouge in French]

JD: That was a scene from Agnes Varda's 1954 film "La Pointe-Courte." It was the movie that launched her career as a filmmaker. And for the next 65 years she was a star -- to those in the know. More widespread recognition would not come for many more years -- while her male peers became internationally famous. Still, she kept working on movies and other projects right until the end. Here's Ms. Varda speaking about the movie that began it all.

SOUNDCLIP

AGNES VARDA: When I started to write my first film I had seen nothing (maybe) four or five films. I wasn't entering in the world of movies. I thought it would be nice to have a movie made. Now when Alain did the editing -- then he started to say, how do you know nothing? I mean go to the cinema. I didn't even know where it was. So I started to go and I started to love films and I see a lot of films including his. The minute I have a minute I go to movies. It's the art of today I think.

REPORTER: You were very young for a director when you made your first film "La Pointe Courte." You were about 25. As you say, you had no experience, you were a woman in what was very much a man's world. What made you think you could do it?

AGNES VARDA: Why couldn't I do it? That would be my answer. I never felt that I had less gifts or non-gifts than my brothers you know. And I felt that I had to abandon [inaudible]. I don't know. I never felt it was a problem. Not even to be very small. I said I can take a ladder, I can take a chair.

REPORTER: Because you're about 5 feet tall.

AGNES VARDA: Which is small. [Chuckles] The thing is...my artistic ambition was high.

JD: That was Agnes Varda in conversation with CBC Radio host Eleanor Wachtel in 2008. Ms. Varda died yesterday in her home in Paris. She was 90 years old. Julia Fabry is a long-time friend and collaborator of Ms. Varda's. We reached Ms. Fabry at Agnes Varda's home in Paris.

MW: Ms. Fabry I'm so sorry about the loss of your friend and collaborator.

JULIA FABRY: Thank you very much. That's very kind of you.

MW: You're at her home now I understand. What's the mood like there now?

JF: It is a very sweet mood, very peaceful mood, very warm too because we've got all the family here and people who have been working together since years with Agnes -- so it's kind of a very special one. Very special mood but very sweet one if I may say.

MW: Are people dropping by?

JF: Yeah. The family, and also many friends from Paris and all over the world. People also in the streets are here because Agnes has been working on Rue Daguerre since '54. And everybody knows in Paris that she was living here. The door was open for everybody.

MW: Can you tell me some of the things that they're saying?

JF: Thank you most of the time. We came outside to give some glasses of water or wine and to share some things with the people in the street just as Agnes (would) have done because she was always trying to share with people.

MW: You mentioned her generosity of spirit. When people are thanking her, what else are they thanking her for?

JF: For what she has done in all -- for sharing the curiosity in life, for sharing her spirit. She was such a positive person so everybody was saying that she was very generous with that.

MW: Now you worked with her for a number of years in fact you were working with her just yesterday. Is that right?

JF: Yeah it is.

MW: How was that?

JF: As Agnes' life was -- I mean she was working all the time. She had such strong energy. Tonight we have a huge opening in Chaumont-sur-Loire -- we did two installations for the place, the place is beautiful -- it is has garden -- and it was important for her to be very near by the nature -- flowers. And it was the perfect place for her at that time.

MW: How would you describe her art?

JF: She was very impressive because since years I mean she was always -- she was kind of a visionary. I mean she was in Cuba during the revolution. And she did a portrait of Fidel Castro. She was with the Black Panthers at that time also in the '60s. And in a way I think she was so curious that she could always be you know at the beginning of everything.

MW: Ahead of her time in many ways. Is there a film that stands out for you?

JF: Yeah maybe it could be the first one song because it was a very modern one, very special one -- La Pointe Courte. For one part it was about fishermen -- kind of a documentary because it (had) real person -- it was fishermen meeting there. And at the same time you had the story of two actors and it was kind of a love story. I think that from the beginning the structure of this movie was totally explaining what Agnes wanted to do in life.

MW: Now she was the oldest ever Oscar nominee for her documentary last year "Faces Places." And she was awarded an honorary Palme d'Or in 2015, the first woman to receive one. How did she react to these accolades late in life?

JF: I think it was not so important for her. I mean she was very very happy for that. I'm not going to say that it was not a pleasure for her. But at the same time she always used to say that she wanted to have some more money to create. And it was very was difficult for her to find some money because there was not cinema involved in money. So sharing in the movie theatre the moment with many many people was much more important for her I think than being honoured and being in the (spot) light. I think people were really important for her -- more than fame.

MW: How do you think her work and spirit will live on?

JF: She was so out of the time that you can see her movie today and it is not an old one -- it is something you can really love nowadays -- I think -- so, it's going to live forever.

MW: Will you be going to the show opening tonight?

JF: No. I decided yesterday that I won't go because I wanted to share all the moments I could share with her. It was more important than anything.

MW: Ms. Fabry thanks so much for speaking with me. And again, so sorry for the loss of your dear friend.

JF: Thank you very much. We are all very touched and very happy to share a bit of Agnes' spirit because she was so alive in her life that we are very proud to say that we took part of this beautiful life.

MW: Thank you.

JF: Thank you.

JD: That was filmmaker Agnes Varda's longtime friend and collaborator, Julia Fabry. We reached her in Paris. For more on the great Agnes Varda -- go to our website: cbc.ca/aih.

[Music]

Father Claude Grou

JD: At morning mass today, worshippers filled Montreal's Saint-Joseph Oratory with applause as Father Claude Grou approached the altar. Last Friday -- you may recall -- the priest was stabbed by an assailant. And a video recording captured the chaos in the moments that followed that. Father Grou suffered minor wounds and was clearly back at work today. After this morning's mass, Father Grou took questions from reporters. Here's some of what he had to say.

SOUNDCLIP

FATHER CLAUDE GROU: I saw this man walking fast towards the front of the church. And when he was behind the altar and took out his knife then I had this spontaneous reaction. So I just walked down and stood before him. And then he started walking towards me and jump on me. He stabbed me. But basically it took me time to realize that there were wounds also -- open wounds. It is as if I would stay there saying well all this bad dream will get over it and I will continue my mass as I do usually. But then that was obviously not the right thing to do. And people came and helped me to go back. Yesterday, they encouraged me to go and spend some time in the crypt church so that I get back to the place -- what do I feel when I go back to the place? And then that helped me. And this morning the fact that I was surrounded by a group of my confreres who were with me I think it created a climate -- and when I came in and people applauded, I felt strong enough. And my main concern was to do the celebrations as best as I could. Concerning the person who has done this attack -- as far as I'm concerned, I have no resentment towards that person. On the contrary I feel he is a person we need to help and I'm sure he will find the help he needs. And I pray to the Lord that he will assist him in this progress.

JD: Father Claude Grou speaking at a press conference today -- one week after he was stabbed inside Saint-Joseph's Oratory.

[Music]

Measles outbreak

Guest: Rabbi Yakov Horowitz

JD: New York's Rockland County is in the grips of a measles outbreak. There have been 153 confirmed cases since the fall. A third of which have been diagnosed just since the beginning of this year. The county says that is why it has declared a state of emergency which began yesterday. The move bans unvaccinated children and teens from public places like shopping malls and houses of worship. Now this outbreak has also affected the large and tight knit Orthodox Jewish population in Rockland County. Yesterday, anti-vaccine protesters gathered wearing t-shirts reading "My religion, my family, my choice." And now community leaders are raising concerns about potential discrimination against the community. Rabbi Yakov Horowitz is a former school principal who founded a Yeshiva in a suburb right in the middle of the epidemic. We reached him in Monsey, New York.

MW: Rabbi Horowitz what do you make of the state of emergency -- is it needed?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: To be perfectly honest, I certainly understand the need to bring more attention to this and perhaps to really send a clear message that this is something that every single person needs to take seriously. But this move to ban unvaccinated children from public spaces, that just makes me very unsettled.

MW: Why?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: Well look I am an identifiably Orthodox Jew, and clearly visibly seen as such. If I were to walk into the mall after this is in place, one could easily see someone --hopefully, nicely or otherwise -- coming over saying, hey what are you doing here? Now I vaccinated my children -- our children immediately. And as a school principal, I absolutely insisted that all of our children, all of our students, be up to date on their vaccination. But the definition I guess of you know what when we think about discrimination it's basically making a judgment on an entire group of people because of what some people in that group do. And it really could lead to a lot of unpleasantness. And my suggestion you know to the county -- it has very positive discussions with people in the county. Offering my help to get the message out to our community and you know we're hoping that we'll be able to you know ratchet things down a little bit.

MW: Now when you expressed concern about people making assumptions, I assume you're talking about the fact that the outbreak has occurred in Orthodox Jewish communities. Can you tell me why that is?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: Or a great portion of it.

MW: A great portion of it correct.

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: I'm not sure that anybody has identified one specific cause. I think there are many causes. The nature of our families and our communities -- we tend to have large families. We interact with each other often. Our life cycle events tend to be larger. I'm just giving you an example. My wife and I were blessed with the birth of our grandsons Saturday. And two days from now will be his circumcision. So we have married kids coming from Baltimore, Los Angeles, and South Jersey. Now you know it's almost like a perfect storm if there are a few children who are unvaccinated there. So I think the nature of a very close knit community in many ways is the greatest blessing. As it refers to this you know an epidemic, it certainly can pose challenges.

MW: I wonder those Orthodox Jewish families who are making the decision not to vaccinate their children, what are they basing that decision on? Is it a religious decision?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: Well some feel that it's religious. I mean my understanding -- I am a Rabbi -- my understanding of scripture and Jewish tradition -- very very clearly states that the primacy of life and health goes above anything else and that we have an obligation to further our safety. There are some who genuinely feel that it's harmful to kids. I had a parent in our own yeshiva -- in our own school. Again, I was the founding dean of a great school -- I don't know what you call it in Canada. And a lovely couple came to enroll a child in our school and this issue of vaccinations came up. They asked me, how I would feel if they would choose not to vaccinate their child. And I said regretfully you know I won't be able to accept your child if he's not vaccinated. And they said you're asking me to give something that we believe is harming our child.

MW: The health commissioner of Rockland County says officials have encountered a lot of resistance from some Orthodox neighbourhoods -- people hanging up on the phone or not opening doors. How can officials communicate with these communities to stop the spread of measles if they're refusing to interact with them?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: I think that is absolutely unacceptable. I did hear this from government officials and physicians that I'm in contact with. And I think that's why they felt the need to up the ante a bit -- you know to let people know that what we've been doing until now isn't working as well as it needs to. It's appropriate to take further steps to both give the message that we are deeply concerned about this and they are going to consequences. So that's fine. This issue -- the way it was rolled out in the public area that is what really got me concerned especially because we live in such tense times you know politically and socially there's so much going on.

MW: I completely understand your fear of the Jewish community being scapegoated somehow over this. But do you have a sense that those who resist vaccinations can be made to understand the importance of them?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: Yes. Yes. There are many many folks that are agreeing to vaccinate their children. Again I don't have any hard numbers but I have a pretty good sense of what's going on in the community. The pediatricians, the doctors, have their soapbox and the rabbis have ours. And we've been getting this message out to our families. In fact, I offered the county officials that I would be glad to attend a press conference with them and speak to our community.

MW: Did they accept that offer?

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: We're talking about it. We're absolutely talking about it. You know I made some suggestions about free vaccinations at some of the shopping centres. You know general supermarkets. And there are many Jewish owned stores where everything is kosher. So those stores would be a great place to set up shop. And I said I would stand at the booth and tell people to come over. You know. But I believe that we're making progress toward accomplishing all of our objectives.

MW: Rabbi Horowitz thank you so much for speaking with me. And best of luck.

RABBI YAKOV HOROWITZ: A pleasure. Thank you very much.

JD: We reached Rabbi Yakov Horowitz in Monsey, New York.

[Music]

Christchurch national memorial service

JD: This morning in Christchurch, New Zealand, more than 20,000 people gathered for a national memorial service. They went to pay their respects to the victims of the mosque shootings two weeks ago. Fifty people were murdered after a man attacked two mosques in Christchurch on March 15th. New Zealand's Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, spoke at today's memorial. She was joined by Muslim and community leaders as well as Farid Ahmed. He survived the attack. His wife Husna Ahmed did not. Today, from his wheelchair, Mr. Ahmed said he forgives the man who killed his wife.

SOUNDCLIP

FARID AHMED: People ask me that why did you forgive someone who has killed your beloved wife? The answer to this is -- I can give so many answers but because of the time I'll give only a couple of points. The first point is I have a faith. I believe in Allah. And Allah says that if we forgive one another then he loves me -- he loves us. Also, I don't want to have a heart that is boiling like a volcano. A volcano has anger, fury, rage. It doesn't have peace. It has hatred. It burns itself within and also it burns the surrounding. I don't want to have a heart like this, and I believe no one does. I want a heart that will be full of love, and care, and full of mercy, and will be forgive lavishly because this heart doesn't want any more lives to be lost. The pain I have gone through no human being should go through that kind of pain. That's why I have chosen peace. I have chosen love. And I have forgiven.

JD: That was Farid Ahmed -- a survivor of the New Zealand mosque attacks -- speaking at a national memorial service honouring the victims today. Yusuf Islam, formerly Cat Stevens, performed at the service. Here he is playing, "Peace Train."

SOUNDCLIP

[Music: Cat Stevens "Peace Train"]

JD: That was Yusuf Islam, formerly Cat Stevens, performing today in Christchurch at a national memorial for the victims of the March 15th mosque attack. .

[Music]

Jo Cameron

JD: However you feel about certain things, Jo Cameron of Whitebridge, Scotland, feels differently. Now grammar buffs may be about to write in to correct me but I do mean that she does feel differently -- not different. Jo Cameron cannot feel any pain. She also does not feel stress or anxiety or fear. Ms. Cameron is a 71-year-old retired schoolteacher, and...a scientific wonder. Research published this week in the British Journal of Anaesthesia reveals that Ms. Cameron has a rare gene mutation -- and the finding may hold the key to treating pain. Here's Jo Cameron on BBC Radio's Today programme speaking with host Martha Kearney.

SOUNDCLIP

JO CAMERON: We have a Rayburn and a solid fuel cooker. And they are getting quite frequently with the lids up -- lean across and I put my arm on the rayburn and don't realize that it's not doing anything until you can smell burning flesh. And as a vegan there's not much burning flesh [laughs] so you can tell. But that's not a joke. Deadly seriously, I just don't feel it. So I damage myself without realising I have which is a bit of a silly thing but I could do that.

MARTHA KEARNEY: And doctors only begun to realise that there's something different about you when you started having operations for osteoarthritis is that right?

JO CAMERON: Yes. And they were purely functional because to begin with I am actually 71 now -- the whole thing started when I was 65. I retired and had a hip operation. But two years before that I realised -- by the way my daughter noticed that I was walking in a different way and my hip every now and again I had a sort of hitch in my hip and it sort of seemed to go down. I went to the doctors to say this. And he said well are you in any pain? And I said no. Well it's pointless of me referring you to the hospital -- they won't do anything if you're not in pain. So over the years, I kept going back and eventually I was sent to a hospital and they asked the same question, are you in pain? No. How far can you walk? Well just until my hip goes click. Well in that case you know come back when it's worse. I did that twice and the third time I think it was to get rid of me -- he gave me an X-ray and found my hip was in a really bad state.

MARTHA KEARNEY: Which would cause most people extraordinary amounts of pain. They are begging to have an operation, aren't they?

JO CAMERON: Yeah. I mean I had no pain. No feeling at all. The only thing was a sensation on my hip giving way. And I didn't even notice I was walking differently but my daughter did. And they noticed my hands were slightly deformed as well and I had no pain with that. So straight after my hip operation I was called in again to do an operation -- I had what was called the hidden thumb which meant my thumb was completely into the palm of my hand. And when I was going in for that operation -- I was chatting with the anaesthetist and he was saying well you know it's a very painful operation so after you'll need strong painkillers. And I said I didn't think I will. And after the operation he came into the ward to check up on me and said you're right. He said you didn't have any painkillers. This is very odd. Do you mind if I check your medical record? And that was when they noticed it. And after that they checked my medical record and found the history.

MARTHA KEARNEY: We don't have too much more time. But University College London then discovered that this is because you have a very unusual gene mutation.

JO CAMERON: Yeah I have a gene deletion and it's called the happy gene. Apparently I produce -- whatever it is that sort of regulates pain -- I produce a lot more of it than anybody else which means I don't feel pain but also it means I'm very very happy. I don't get depressed or downhearted about things which can be very annoying when you live with me.

MARTHA KEARNEY: Very annoying. But could it have interesting scientific repercussions couldn't it?

JO CAMERON: Oh yes. On a serious note this is why I've gone public about it because I'm 71 and I want people to know that it's possible even in your 70s and 80s to be part of something which can help other people. You know age doesn't matter about helping people. And if they can research me and then maybe by listening to this someone else might think, well that's me. And they might go you know and volunteer to help. And I want to help people who are in tremendous pain. That's why I'm doing it.

JD: That was Jo Cameron -- the painless wonder of the Scottish Highlands -- on BBC Radio's Today programme.

[Music]

Part 3: Apple's new subscription news service is a bad deal for publishers, says journalism prof

Archdiocese abuse

Guest: Carlo Tarini

JD: Montreal's Catholic archbishop says he wants to restore the public's trust in the Church. And so this week, Christian Lepine promised to open up its doors -- and its files -- for a thorough investigation into accusations of sexual abuse by priests. The investigation will go back 70 years and will be conducted by retired Superior Court Justice. Carlo Tarini is the director of the Quebec Committee of Victims of Priests. We reached Mr. Tarini in Montreal.

MW: Mr. Tarini how long have survivors of priest abuse in Quebec waited for an investigation like this?

CARLO TARINI: Survivors have been waiting for decades for a true investigation. And unfortunately, what was announced is a total failure. This is not what is needed. It's not an independent inquiry. It's basically Quebec's Archbishop deciding to appoint a retired judge -- who he is hiring to investigate his own actions and the actions that went on by his predecessors.

MW: Can you tell me about the reactions you've heard from members of your organization who have experienced abuse?

CT: Yes. They're extremely saddened by this approach. We've been asking for a true independent audit for a true independent investigation -- and we're not getting it. It's like if Bishop Lepine wanted to get on the wrong side of the victims -- he's done exactly what he needed to do.

MW: Quebec's Archbishop has promised that retired Superior Court Justice Anne-Marie Trahan will have free reign to go through 70 years of files. And on the face of it, that sounds pretty thorough. So what are your concerns about the investigation?

CT: First of all our concerns are about the naming of Justice -- the retired Justice -- we were not at all considered in the choice. If you wanted to have a true independent investigation, there would have been other ways to go about it. And certainly victims representatives would have been available to input into how to go about this thing.

MW: One church official though says he wants a full accounting of abuse allegations in order to have a fresh start with the public. The motivation sounds genuine.

CT: Oh definitely. You know I totally agree this is all about the branding of the Roman Catholic Church. Their branding has gone to hell with this thing and they're trying to basically rehabilitate their image. But this is not the way to do it. In other concerns in Pennsylvania there was an independent investigation organized by the government and they found that 300 priests had abused thousands of children over three decades and the names of these priest were published and some of them went to jail. This is not what we're hearing. We're hearing that once this inquiry -- this in-house inquiry -- is finished and this will take some two years, they will publish statistics. They will not publish names. So that's a total failure of what needs to be done.

MW: Now this investigation is limited to clergy members and staff. But we've seen in other jurisdictions that it was higher up officials in the church -- bishops -- that were often involved in cover ups and moving priests accused of abuse to other jurisdictions. Are you worried that those allegations will be missed?

CT: Certainly. And especially since the inquiry only covers what has gone on in the local parishes. It's not covering at all the religious communities and to explain clearly -- there have been abuse by priests with choirboys and within parishes. But the bulk of the abuse have been in residential schools -- in the schools where children were bordered and kept overnight, over the weekend. These educational institutions in Quebec were all run by religious communities and they will not be at all the focus --they will not be looked at all or considered within the so-called inquiry.

MW: Taking into account all of the criticisms that you have of this investigation, is it still not better that something has been launched rather than nothing?

CT: This is not what the victims have been expecting. And this is not what they deserve. And hopefully we'll get our day in court and hopefully also victims will not be taken in by what was asked today because we've heard the bishop requesting that victims you know knock at the door of his diocese -- well victims should rather knock at the door of the police stations and they should ask for an investigation.

MW: What would it take for you to truly believe that the Catholic Church is really serious about confronting these past allegations?

CT: You know the one thing that would convince us is that if they were willing to create a policy whereby pedophile priests would be excommunicated, would be tossed out. Now that would be a major step because right now what they're saying is that when a priest is identified as a predator, as an abuse of children, they take away their ministry. Well their ministry -- it simply means that they're taking away their right to preside over a mass on Sunday. Well that's no punishment. They're kept around. And the message would be a lot stronger if these pedophiles were just tossed out on their ear.

MW: The Catholic Church's response to that sometimes is that they don't want to expel these priests because they're afraid that by letting them out into the community they'll be even more dangerous.

CT: Well you know that's why we've got some laws and regulations that stop pedophiles, that force them to report when they're moving close to schools and other places. So you know I think bishops in Quebec should start taking care of their flock and they should let the police handle pedophiles. I think justice would be best served that way.

MW: Okay. Mr. Tarini thanks very much for speaking with me today. Best of luck.

CT: Thank you.

JD: Carlo Tarini is the director of the Quebec Committee of Victims of Priests. We reached him in Montreal.

[Music]

Apple News +

Guest: Aron Pilhofer

JD: Earlier this week you may have seen the faces of Steven Spielberg, Oprah, and Jennifer Aniston smiling at you out of your computer. They were touting the launch of Apple's new TV streaming service. Further from the spotlight was another new Apple service "News +". It is billed as a quote, "digital newsstand" and it will offer readers access to hundreds of magazines and newspapers for ten dollars a month in the U.S. 13 bucks a month, here in Canada. At the launch Apple CEO Tim Cook painted himself as a friend of the news industry. Some journalists however do not see it that way. Aron Pilhofer is one of them. He teaches journalism innovation at Temple University. We reached him in Philadelphia.

MW: Aron what will readers get from Apple's News +?

ARON PILHOFER: Well I mean they'll get a smattering of offerings from magazines, from newspapers, other periodicals. Some of it will be personalized to their interest. Notifications. It's just sort of basic news app but with a big selection of content from different publications.

MW: And I should note that CBC is part of the older free Apple news service but not this new one -- not the Apple News +. But how is Apple News + different from say what Facebook or Google already offer?

AP: Yes so there are some similarities and some differences. The big differences though are the pricing model and the revenue model and the way publishers interact I guess with the platform.

MW: Okay. And can you briefly outline what those differences are?

AP: Yes. So in the case of Google for example it's a search product mainly. So the page still is more or less the publishers -- the publisher can create fairly customized experience. And if the publisher has a subscription product or other ways that they want to interact with a reader say signing you up for a newsletter or something like that the publisher can do that. The same is also true for the most part with Facebook. And that kind of is a key difference with News +. With News +, Apple controls the relationship with the customer. The customer is a subscriber to News + -- essentially to Apple -- and Apple then gives publishers a cut. That's a key difference.

MW: And you know obviously for subscribers you're getting a huge range of content -- but what are publishers getting out of it?

AP: Well -- money -- for one. If Apple is to be believed the amount of money they get out of their 50 percent cut. So the way this works, Apple takes 50 percent of the revenue and publishers divvy up the rest. Then over time that pool of money will grow and publishers will get paid -- potentially quite a lot if you believe them

MW: Okay. But some big name media companies decided not to take part in it like the New York Times and The Washington Post. Why do you think that was?

AP: Well a couple of reasons. For one, both The Post and The Times have been aggressively moving to their own subscription products. The New York Times for example launched a paywall almost I think nine-10 years ago now and has about 3 million all digital subscribers at this point. So they've gone all in on sort of reader revenue -- going directly to readers not as much focused on advertising. Why they didn't want to go into News +? Because I think they see News + -- in their case what it is -- which is a direct competitor. Why would you ever pay for a fairly pricey New York Times subscription if you could get all that content for ten dollars a month through Apple?

MW: So is this going to be more appealing to sites that don't have a paywall?

AP: Yeah absolutely. And so Vox for example has decided to go in. It's very big, it's an all-digital publisher, but they're not primarily or even remotely a subscription driven business. They're all about reach and advertising right now.

MW: Apple of course is a business offering a huge potential audience. But you've come out against -- their offering a 50 percent share of the revenue -- why is that or the money that people are paying to have access to these sites?

AP: So Apple's had through the App Store a longstanding cut. It has taken a cut of revenue that apps charge through the app store it's 30 percent. If it's a subscription based product it's 30 percent to begin with and then 15 percent after a year. In the case of News + -- Apple's taking 50 percent of the revenue which is quite a lot. I think it's actually way more than Apple should take. And I think it's a little bit questionable given what's going on in journalism today. We all know the business models of local news in particular are crumbling and it's not just in the U.S. -- it's around the world. So for Apple to come out and say we care about journalism but we're launching this new product and we're taking 50 percent of the revenue, a little bit tone deaf in my opinion.

MW: Mr. Cook came out and said at the launch, we believe in the power of journalism and the impact it can have on our lives. And yet they came up with a model that you say undermines it.

AP: Yeah. That's a really good question. The only thing I can think of is that Apple is a company that has thrived on high margin businesses. The iPhone is an incredibly high margin business. The Macintosh was an incredibly high margin business. And I think they see this as another high margin business.

MW: Okay. You've worked for years in the area of digital media at The Guardian and The New York Times. What would you like to have seen the Apple CEO offer instead of what he offered? I mean what do you think would be good for readers and journalism companies as well?

AP: At a minimum, I would have liked to see revenue sharing agreements that are comparable with what publishers would already get through the App Store. Not 50 percent. Closer to 30 percent or 15 percent. I mean that to me would have been a baseline. But beyond that I think Apple had a real opportunity here to do something interesting and to really position itself as the friend of news and journalism. They could have taken their cut and given it to the Knight Foundation or set up a foundation to support journalism or something like that. And I think they would have had a huge PR win out of that. This is a drop in the bucket for them in terms of revenue. And I think that it was just a missed opportunity for them.

MW: Well Aron thanks so much for speaking with me today.

AP: Yeah absolutely.

JD: Aron Pilhofer is a former digital journalist who now teaches at Temple University in Philadelphia. And we have more on this story on our website: cbc.ca/aih.

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March 29, 2019 Episode Transcript

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