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SKS Season 5 Episode 10 : “Sumner”

ATW: The following program contains mature subject matter. Listener discretion is advised.

ATW: You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, David Ridgen travels north to Thompson, Manitoba, to investigate the 1986 murder of Kerrie Brown. This is episode 10: Sumner.”

DR: We know that Patrick Sumner was discharged and did not proceed to trial after his February 1987 preliminary hearing for the first-degree murder of Kerrie Brown. DNA testing does not appear to have linked Sumner to the scene or the murder. And I’ve discovered other possible suspects and avenues that may well have been overlooked. But it’s still impossible for Trevor and perhaps many who have followed the case over the years, to not suspect Patrick Sumner, much less be in a room with him.

DR:Well, maybe... you'll get a chance to… ask all the questions that you have in your head.

DR: I’d like to speak to Patrick Sumner myself. Hear his story of the night Kerrie disappeared and the aftermath. Probe further. Does he know something? Was he there?

[Sound: Cars drive by]

DR: Trevor helped me find this address and since then I’ve been back at all times of day to try to find the right opportunity for a non-threatening approach, while Sumner’s alone.

DR: But the situation soon changes...

[Sound: Seat Belt being undone, keys, door opening, wind, passing cars]

DR: Shit, he's gone inside…

PATRICK SUMNER: Hey.

PS: [to dog] Get down. Get down. Sit.

PS: [to dog] Stop. Stop. That's okay. She's just...

PS: [to dog] Behave! [to David] Booker.

PS: Come in, come in. [to dog] Behave! [to David] Crazy fucking dog.

DR: So Patrick?

DR: I'm David...

DR: And I work for CBC, and I wanted to see if you would help me out. Talking on the Brown case?

DR: I want you to talk to me about, like how...

DR: Here, here's my card.

DR: So I'm, I'm...

DR: Yeah.

DR: PTSD?

DR:: I follow him...and we move into a room with a couple of couches, bicycle leaning against one, blue dog blanket on the other, and a large TV. There’s a bedroom off to the right...with a giant wolf’s head image on the bedspread. Sumner heads left to a kitchenette. Lights a cigarette. He’s not very tall. About 5’9”. With blue eyes, and a coarse light brown moustache. Puts on a pair of glasses and starts shuffling through some papers I see strewn across a small breakfast table.

PS: Some stuff this pile of stuff…

DR: That’s you writing that...did you write that?

PS: Uhhh I just wrote this other…

DR: Sumner arguing back at the claims of the past 30 years, in solitude.

DR: Oh, you got a paper right here with the story on it. Can I take a picture of that?

DR: So this is a paper that you've marked up here.

PS: Because that’s what was said in court...it was found under the factory carpet!

DR: Back to the articles on Sumner’s kitchen table.

PS: No. I just had it sitting there cause I've been making some notes or whatever. This is from March 2nd '87…

PS: Sumner’s shirt, which I wrote dad’s there but it says, “Sumner’s t-shirt.” During the hearing it was determined: not my shirt, not her blood. Yet they still wrote it in the paper as though it was my shirt and her blood.

PS: My dad was quite a lot bigger than me at that time...so I would wear like a small or medium and he was probably wearing xtra large...it was his undershirt. I mean fuck he’d get pimples on his back….

PS: The same blood type as hers but no medication or alcohol in the blood on the shirt. Which they would know from the autopsy was in her blood. So they knew when they went to court that that wasn't my shirt and not her blood, but they still presented it as though it was to the judge. So they misled...the court...

DR: This is ‘87?

DR: March of '87, after the prelim.

DR: Do you have other papers that you've gone through and written on or notes that you've made?

PS: Nope.

PS: No. [LAUGH]

PS: No. I think they tried, early on a little bit. But if was like, PFTTT, I wanted them to fucking figure it out. So I'm just keeping my mouth shut. As to, not be charged with interfering in an investigation.

DR: Well, I'm really interested in talking to you about it, because I think it will...

DR: When's a, when's a good time To chat, to sit down and chat with you?

DR: Sumner is trying to bail or at least, reschedule. I would enjoy a proper interview, with a better recording set up. But I don’t want to waste this opportunity, and I try to keep him interested in talking...

DR: That's ok…. Maybe later tonight. If you are interested, I'd like to do a real good interview with you, and I think you would benefit from… unloading whatever's on your mind about the case.

DR: Oh, it's a Friday night isn't it?

DR: Even an hour of your time like ...

DR: If you talk to me, in a longer interview, then... the story will be known.

DR: I mean, what was the main reason that they kept focussing on you?

DR: I have been asking the police about their focus on Patrick Sumner since the beginning. And I’ve heard from Sean Simmans, that he’s still nine out of 10 sure that Sumner was who he saw that night. And as far as the RCMP are concerned, Patrick Sumner still hasn’t been completely ruled out. Robert Urbanoski.

DR: I might.

JT: There is a difference between, of course, a discharged hearing and an acquittal. And um... Pat Sumner was not acquitted. The court never determined that he hasn't committed the offense, in other words, he was not found not guilty. We never got to that phase. They just said that we didn't have enough evidence to proceed to trial at that point. We certainly didn't establish a conviction. But you know, the legal system, that's all we've got in this country.

DR: You still have your doubts about him? Do you think that Patrick might know something?

DR: And Constable Janna Amirault…

DR: So Patrick is in the pool?

DR: You had alibis for that night?

DR: At the time Kerrie Ann would have been murdered, you were with your parents.

DR: From what you remember?

DR: Oh, I see. Okay.

DR: I see.

DR: So this is your opportunity to say like unequivocally when I ask a question did you have anything to do with ...

DR: With killing Kerrie Ann Brown.

DR: Would you ever contemplate such a thing?

DR: And with that, my visit with Sumner comes to an end, with Patrick insisting that it isn’t a good time for him… but agreeing theoretically to an interview at a later date.

PS: Might make a good story I don’t know...

DR: I found Sumner to be open, but perhaps overly focused on details of the case rather than a bigger picture. The hairs, the father’s shirt, the blood stains. Proving he didn’t do it by catching mistakes that he says police or prosecutors made. I try to imagine how it must have been for Sumner under the investigative glare of suspicion over 30 years ago. I still can’t believe nobody has interviewed him about it.

DR: But I still feel that I need to ask a few more questions to get a few more direct results.

DR: Or maybe there's some weird parallel part to the story where he plays an initial role, innocent role… that's why I want to go back. So then the question is, what's the best approach with this guy? What do you think?

DR: So it's like, I just want to get another stab at him, and I'm not sure if anything I can do is better than just knocking on the door. You know?

DR: Hello. How have you been doing?

DR: Months later, I have an opportunity to see Sumner again, and I’m again inside his home following him down to his apartment. He heads for the kitchenette. As before, the main goal is to help Sumner feel comfortable enough to tell me his version of events in as much detail as possible.

PS: Sloppy Joe.

PS: Sort of.

PS: I still drink it with every meal.

PS: The reason I was arrested. Funny but not funny.

PS: There is V8 on the floor where my lunch from that day was.

PS: Little tin can, lunch size. Yeah. That's the reason they used to arrest me. It wasn’t blood.

PS: Yeah I see people are now getting compensated for jury duty because of post-traumatic stress. Yeah. Those were horrifying pictures. Yeah, try being the guy they're accusing of those horrifying pictures. I wonder, would that cause post-traumatic stress? I wonder. But who cares right? Nobody cares about something you didn't do. It's in the song. And it's true as can be. Nobody gives a damn. You're not considered a victim. [CHUCKLES]

DR: Go ahead...give me a sense of who you are.

DR: What was it that brought police to you in your mind? What was their big piece of evidence?

DR: Sumner is referring here to Sean Simmans, who along with Larry Leepart, testified about vehicles they saw emerging from the stable roads the night Kerrie was killed. Simmans says he’s 9- per cent sure he saw Sumner behind the wheel of a car that looked like the one Sumner owned. I have no reason to disbelieve or disavow Simmans’s recollections. I have not been able to verify what Leepart might have seen that night. And while I am not aware that either Simmans or Leepart made any kind of “false statement”. I do know that Larry Leepart was in the passenger seat, and according to those present at the preliminary hearing, he never got a good look at the driver of the muscle car that passed them on the right.

DR: The driver of the truck told me, that it was a nine out of 10 in his mind that he saw you in the car driving by. Still says it's nine out of 10.

DR: Again, I wish a transcript of the preliminary hearing existed. It would have been invaluable to compare what was said 30 years ago to what’s being remembered now. Still, there would be a lot of things it couldn’t help with. Patrick says he didn’t testify at the hearing.

PS: No, I didn't need to.

DR: So did you ever have to provide... this is one thing that I was unclear about...did you ever have to provide, through your lawyer your whereabouts on that night?

DR: So far, Sumner’s recollections seem formed in the bitterness of seeing himself as a victim. And maybe he is a victim...and innocent. But the bottom line is I need details and facts that can serve as proof. Where was he the night Kerrie was murdered?

PS: Oh god. Where I was and who I was with. [LAUGHS]

PS: I was with a girlfriend, Claire...

PS: I know, she says we might have the time a little bit off, we might have been at the store a little earlier than we thought, but yeah, she was shopping for a couch, and we went here and there. Ron's furniture and Woolworths and the Bay, and yup. I dropped her off, I dropped by friend's house, and uh two guys were actually outside in his car. Lindsay and Curtis

PS: Yeah, that's... It's got to be around 8, 8:30.

PS: Somewhere there.

PS: 'Cause I think we were at the Burntwood at 8:30 for the show.

PS: Yeah.

PS: I had one beer. I think they had two. Curtis might of had two. Yeah well, they were buying so I wasn't... (LAUGHS) I had the money. I was going to school.

PS: And then I went home.

PS: Well, I was at the dump.

PS: No. nope.

PS: No.

PS: No, not at all.

PS: Hmm I'm sure it was before 10. By 10 for sure. Well I'm pretty sure it was before that but...It's kind of hard to remember because I had no reason to...

PS: That's what they were asking me about, yeah.

DR: When Kerrie disappeared.

DR: and was murdered...

DR: So you're saying you were home before 10, or around 10.

DR: And what happened when you got home?

DR: Like was there...

DR: Was there someone here? Oh, the game was still on in extra innings I guess, yeah. My dad came home by 11 because, to catch the news, which wasn't on. [CHUCKLES]

AMIL DELIC: Hey, Dave.

DR: The 1986 World Series took place between the New York Mets and the Boston Red Sox. I asked him to check if there was a game on the night Kerrie was murdered.

DR: 16th.

DR: The series started on October 18th?

DR: Okay, so what baseball was on on the 16th?

DR: Oh! Yeah, yeah. Extra innings.

DR: Oh, on the 15th!?

DR: And was there a game on television on the 16th?

DR: A travel day? Okay. Okay.

DR: According to my producer, there was no baseball game on TV the night Kerrie was killed.

PS: Yup.

PS: I... I don't know.

PS: Well, there was something on. See again, how do you remember something you have no reason to remember?

PS: But that's my best recollection at the time.

PS: Well, during the day until 4 o'clock I was at school. I went home, grabbed a shower, bite to eat. Probably went out by about 6 or so, picked up Claire, picked up Cathy, went to Trappers for a while. Took a spin around to buy the bedframe, went there for a drink, got a stamp, and left, so we wouldn't have to stand in line later. [LAUGHS]

PS: [LAUGHS}

PS: No. Nope, no time. And I believe the weather was not conducive.

PS: Because it was a nice day [cat meow] and winter was setting in. I just figured it might actually be my last chance to wash it outside because I didn't have garage to wash it in. I don't like washing it in the winter everything just freezes up. So I washed it because it was a nice day. Saturday. Prior that, not sure about Friday, but I know prior to that, most of that week it was freezing rain, a little bit of snow, minus temperatures so there was no way you were using a garden hose outside, it was frozen. It was a nice day. That's it.

PS: Yeah, I was off school... yeah in the driveway, traffic going back and forth, yeah yeah because I was trying to hide something.

PS: Yeah I washed the outside, and I wiped down the windows, and there's two sides to the windows, so I washed the inside of the windows, yeah. I vacuumed the floor and whatever. So it was a nice day so yeah gave the car a cleaning. Took my time, whatever.

PS: I don't know, maybe, I think it did, yeah. Not that is was relevant, but...

PS: They were trying to make it look that way, yeah. I guess that's what their effort was towards. If that's suspicious then it's suspicious for anyone who washed their car that day. [LAUGHS] Well, I'm going to say whether it was at home in their driveway or whether it was at a carwash. If I was trying to hide something, I wouldn't be in high traffic washing my car. Think... it's a public facility. Dump.

PS: I think it was a guy that worked for him.

PS: I sold it after, yeah.

PS: Yeah, well I mean it was trashed

DR: You have?

PS: [LAUGHS]

PS: [LAUGHS] I guess once, that was the same girl I was living with, whatever it was all whatever. [CHUCKLES]

PS: There's... I don't have a record let's put it that way.

PS: [LAUGHS] I don't have a criminal record.

PS: Oh, that was I don't know. Mid-90s maybe?

PS: Maybe.

PS: [COUGHS] Yeah, I guess I'd guess so. Simple assault, I don't know what they call it. Whatever

PS: I guess so.

DR: What it is is that when I ask police if they still have a suspicion about Patrick Sumner, the answer is always given as a...he's not been excluded, kind of thing.

DR: The DNA testing...did you ever voluntarily give police your DNA.

DR: Knowing it was for a DNA test.

DR: You never gave blood to them?

DR: Ok.

DR: And if they came to you today…

DR: You would give it to them today if they asked?

DR: It wasn’t until the 1990s when DNA became a centrepiece of criminal investigation, that RCMP began collecting samples in earnest from people regarding the Kerrie Brown investigation. Sumner moves onto talking about John Tost, one of the original investigators.

DR: In my interview with John Tost, I asked him about the interrogation techniques he used with Patrick Sumner.

JT: Methodology there would be the same as anybody else. When we're doing an investigative interview, your goal — your only goal and your ultimate goal is to obtain any evidence or information that's going to further your investigation. And basically that's the only answer I can give you. People are personalities. Personalities may require different approaches.

PS: His own words... “You might as well confess because your life's over anyway.” That's before he ever seen me before in his life, never talked to me yet, even, and he decided in that point in time I was it...There was nothing more I could do.

PS: I did tell him at one point, just because you think it or you say it, doesn't make it so...I told him do your job, you'll find out you're wrong. That was pretty much toward the end of it. And I finally said yeah, I'm going to use the phone.

PS: No, no. I had nothing to hide. Told him it repeatedly. Like I said, that was my idea. What do you want from me? Whatever you want. I don't know how much more I could have co-operated. I couldn't have.

PS: Oh, he was there the whole time making notes... Same, two peas in a pod. Same shit. They don't care, right? They dug their own hole in the ground I guess. That's [LAUGHS] I mean. I don't know how else to put it right. They dug themselves into it...

DR: So one of the witnesses, the driver in the red truck...and his mother actually said that Sumner family members were following them around after this all happened.

DR: Behind their red truck.

DR: So that wasn't you?

DR: And...your brothers at the time and your dad, they wouldn't of, you don't know anything about them following…

DR: The red truck?

DR: And did they have access to it? Have they ever driven it?

DR: Did your brothers look like you?

DR: And moustache?

DR: But did they have moustaches?

DR: Just trying to figure out if someone else had access to your car or something. Um would've been a family member probably but.

DR: Did you have anything to do with Kerrie's disappearance?

DR: Did you have anything to do with Kerrie's murder?

DR: And did you, do you know anything about the murder? Do you know anything about…

DR: Do you know anything about who was there?

DR: You weren't driving in that area?

DR: Nobody else had access to your car?

DR: I saw some photos from the crime scene that the RCMP actually shared with me. One of the pictures shows a footprint, so a shoe print.

PS: Oh god. From 10 to 11 depending on the brand name I guess.

PS: 10 and a half. Well then it would have been 10 maybe. I've gained a bit since then. [LAUGHS] Well your feet do, you get heavier, your feet will tend to, over time, but I kind of like my shoes loose though, for the most part. Maybe I wore a size 9.5 to 10 I would say maybe then...maybe 10 and a half at tops depending on who made them I guess.

DR: How tall are you? You're like 5'8?

DR: Maybe 9?

DR: All you're doing is helping with the investigation by talking right now so...

DR: A lot of effort was put into trying to take you through the system and it's important to know what actually happened.

DR: None of those people's statements were submitted or put into the prelim?

DR: And Claire wasn't involved.

DR: So according to Patrick, Claire Dube was never called as a witness...

DR: So I called her myself…

DR: Oh, hi. Can I speak to Claire Dubé please?

DR: Hi, Claire. My name is David Ridgen…

DR: I spoke to Patrick Sumner.

DR: And he had mentioned that you were with him on October 16th, 1986...

DR: And on October 17th.

DR: So can you tell me about that?

DR: On the day that Kerrie disappeared, Claire asked Patrick Sumner to come with her to Woolco, a local discount department store. Woolco is a subsidiary of Woolworths, and has gone by both names, so this may be why Sumner told me that he and Claire went to Woolworths that day.

DR: And then what happened after that?

DR: Just back up a bit. So the Thursday night when you went out, after you went to the Woolco or, to get the furniture, what time... where did you go and what time did you arrive and what time did you leave on the Thursday night?

DR: With Patrick.

DR: Okay, and he dropped you off at home you said?

DR: Yeah, Yeah.

DR: And do you recall any of the other explanations for Pat’s whereabouts, sort of after he dropped you off? Do you remember if there was any other... what he told you he did after he dropped you off?

DR: Okay, and that was the Thursday night?

DR: So there’s some major discrepancy here. Claire says that Sumner dropped her off between 11 and 12:30, perhaps earlier. But Sumner says he dropped her off around 8:00 or 8:30 and that he was definitely home by 11. Both agree that he didn’t go directly home afterwards, heading back to the bar instead. So, depending on of the timings Sumner is could still be unaccounted for, around the time that Kerrie went missing, between 11:30 and midnight, at least by his and Dube’s alibis.

CB: Paint Road. 1159 Paint Road.

CD: Yeah, in the old trailer court.

DR: So you don’t remember driving with Patrick out around the area of the stables that night?

DR: That was on Friday, the 17th you’re talking about?

DR: Drinks again, eh?

DR: So according to Claire, it was a run-up to a weekend like any other. A few drinks on Thursday, another night at the bar on Friday. And she implies that Sumner was in school during the time Rolly says he saw him washing his car on the Friday. But then on the Saturday, word began to spread through Thompson that a local girl had been murdered.

CD: At that point in time, when I heard what had happened, I was just shocked. She was only two years younger than I was. It’s hard to believe that’ll happen in our community. I really had no thoughts on it besides just feeling bad for the family and friends, and wondering what had happened to her until they found her. And then once the cops had picked up Pat, that’s when I found out to what degree that they thought I was involved. [laughs] Because...Pat, I would talk to... we did something every day together. And I couldn’t find him. I talked to his mom and his mom told me no Claire, the cops came and picked him up like a day ago. And I was like what? So then it was a hunt to see how we could get in the jail to go see him, find out what the hell was going on. I know he was already in custody when they came to talk to me.

CD: Their theory at that point in time, which they told me, was that I was very similar to Kerrie Brown — hair colouring, size, age — and their theory, for Constable Tost was that Pat had an ongoing crush on me and when he was never able to… approach, I guess? I don’t know what the right word is for it. And that his frustrations over me was why he went after Kerrie Brown. Supposedly. Which I knew was total bullshit. Pat and I have been friends since I was 15 years old and yeah. No, it was… it was like they were grasping at straws. Yeah. I was just totally shocked at what their theory was and explained there was no way. Like I mean, Pat couldn’t hurt a dog. He couldn’t kick a dog for god’s sakes. He’s one of the most gentle people that I know. Anti-conflict and… stable. You know? Like you’d have to be whack to be able to do what somebody did to that poor girl. It’s just not fair.

CD: No, not at all. No. He’s [unintelligible]. He couldn’t have stood by and know. The cops, the last interview I had with them was when my daughter was six months old. She’s now 23. They called me in. I was just finishing my mat leave. And again, they told me how wrong my statement was, and had conflicted with Pat’s. And as far as I know, that was exactly the only thing that we could did— I couldn’t change my statement because that’s what I think we did. And so then they went on to talking about Pat’s statement ...and how... my statement conflicted his and ...if anything, [IT] did more damage to him than good. And I refused to change it and he said well, here, do you want to see Pat’s statement? And I said yeah, sure. So they had a file they spun around and once I opened the file, it was a four by six glossies on both sides of the crime scene. At that point in time, I lost my temper and I told them I didn’t — pardon my language — told them I didn’t give a fuck if it was my father that had done it, if I had known who’d done it I would fucking say so because they should be punished, plain and simple. And that was my last interview with them and I’ve never heard from them again. That was after they’d taken... they’d already had DNA from me long before that and then they had done the DNA for a hundred-and-some people or whatever. And then when that happened, because they took DNA from my late husband and a number of our friends. I have no idea what happened that night. All I know is from the pictures I was shown, there’s no freaking way in the world it was one person did that to her. There was more than one involved. I mean, it was brutal. Absolutely. And whoever did it should pay. Should pay severely. Nobody on god’s green earth deserves that to be done to them. And the cold-hearted bastards that could do that should be dead. If I knew somebody did that to another human being, I don’t care who they are. They should pay.

CD: Oh yeah. Yeah, to this day.

CD: Oh, it screwed his life. It hands down. ...The next morning he wrote that exam at 8 a.m. He started class at eight. He wrote that exam and got like 90-some-per cent on that exam. He was halfway, if not more, done that year course. And to be picked up, he never finished the course. He was thrown in jail. He was ostracized from 90 per cent of the community. Like...he got dirty looks and rude comments. And people not knowing any better and believing what the RCMP were saying. So a lot of people probably to this day somewhat think he’s guilty. It stunted his life from future... being able to gain meaningful employment in Thompson, where he wanted to look after and stay with his family. He ended up going to Winnipeg and being a little bit more anonymous there, ‘til for health reasons, he came back to help his mum and dad. And live with them to help them maintain their home and such, which he’s doing still to this day. In the meantime there’s somebody out there that should pay for a young girl’s life.

TB: Pat? How’s it going?

DR: Most people I’ve spoken to had strong

opinions about Patrick Sumner.

LAFRENIERE: I think he knows something. I think he got off lucky. But I don't really know him….but for the cops to like to have somebody there had to have been some kind of evidence or he knew something.

DR: Trevor too has had his opinions about Sumner, but now feels its the right time to set the record straight.

TB: Okay.

TB: I was going to hits some light here, Dave and roll a spliff. Dave, do you want a bottle of water? Anything to drink?

TB: Okay. Have a seat please. I’m going to a roll a spliff and we’ll…

TB: So you want to go see if Mr. Sumner’s home, eh?

TB: First? Yeah. Is that cool?

TB: Okay.

TB: Yeah. I’m going to go out back.

DR: Let's see if we can get Sumner here.

DR: That’s how it goes.

TB: [laugh] Whenever I see a camper like that I think of Yogi Bear.

TB: Because of the .. the ones where he's like ….. he comes crashing in through the fucking roof of the fucking camper.

TB: And he's trying to get those picnic baskets and the fucking woman starts hammering on his head with a cast iron pan. Hilarious. Man I used to laugh.

[Sound: Car noise and footsteps]

TB: Oh yeah. Thanks.

DR: This time Patrick’s mother, Rosalie Sumner, answers the door.

ROSALIE SUMNER: Yeah.

RS: Ahhhhhhh .......

RS: Yeah. Okay. Hold on.

RS: Well, come on in.

RS: It's for you Pat.

PS: Hey.

DR: It's okay. It's okay. I know he wants to get out.

RS: Is this guy coming in with you?

DR: Come on in Trev.

DR: Yeah. So... Trevor. Patrick… you guys have never talked before?

PS: : No.

TB: Yeah.

TB: No. The only time you would have ever seen me was in that courtroom. That's it.

TB: You were being held in The Pas, right?

TB: Here. Did ….

TB: You never spent any time in The Pas?

DR: How long were you in jail for? How long did they keep you in? They arrested you on the Thursday ….

DR: So after the prelim, you were released in March?

PS: No, I volunteered. I said 'For sure. Why not. Yeah. I must have answered eight questions sixteen times. Yeah.

DR: So did your mom. Did you testify at the prelim as well?

DR: They didn’t …

PS: There’s no family or nothing. ‘Cause anyone they subpoena wasn't allowed to be in court.

PS: But no one was fucking called. Only Curtis and Lindsay were the only two people that I knew that were called.

LINDSAY LANG: Hello.

LL: This is.

DR: Oh. Lindsay. It's Dave Ridgen calling, I work for CBC Radio.

DR: Yeah, I'm working on the case of Kerrie Brown. And I have interviewed Patrick Sumner. And actually Claire Dube quite a bit. And they spoke about you as being somebody who was with them, or with Patrick on the night that Kerrie disappeared. So I just wanted to... ask you if you could talk to me a little bit about that.

DR: Okay. When's a good time?

DR: He promises me another call when he is less busy, but before he hangs up, I try to get a couple of questions in.

LL: Yep.

LL: Not really at night. It was during the day.

LL: Not really at night, no.

LL: Ah, you can after supper. Anytime after 5.

LL: Alright. Kay, bye

DR: I called Lindsay back but nobody answered the phone and then, for subsequent calls, the number simply stopped working. But I’d like more detail here Lindsay if you can call me back. If Lindsay Lang was not with Sumner the night Kerrie disappeared, it tends to call that part of Sumner’s alibi into question. Back to Sumner.

PS: Not my car. No.

PS: No. And as a matter of fact, Curtis and Lindsay and myself stopped for a beer at the Burntwood. Think it was an 8:30-ish show. Strip. [laugh]

PS: And your dad was there! And your dad was there! So your dad even actually seen me that night.

DR: Later, I run this by Jim Brown. He says that he was definitely not at the Burntwood Strip Club that night. Jim’s recollection of the evening was that he and Kerrie’s mother drove their car to a local garage and left it there to get some work done. They took a leisurely walk home, then settled in for the night, Jim filling out his hockey pool.

PS: No, I didn’t know him. So but no, I know him. See after I knew him. So after I know him. I know him. I seen him there that night. Cause I wasn't facing the stripper. They were. [laugh] Well cause the table only had two seats on each side. Right. So Curtis and Lindsay grabbed those. So my back was to the stripper. So his dad was off further over that way.

DR: What time would you say you got home?

DR: On the Thursday or the Friday morning.

DR: Okay. And he came home …

DR: But you were Patrick's alibi?

DR: So Patrick was with you that night.

RS: It’s been very hard. He can’t … well, he can’t get a job in town for one thing. At all. There are still people who think he's guilty.

TB: Wow. What department?

TB: Oh, okay.

TB: Were you familiar with where they found Kerrie? Did you know about that Stable Road. That back access road. That hydro line. Were you familiar at all with that area?

TB: Okay.

PS: I mean familiar, no.

PS: I think I went though there once. Me and my friend had a truck.

PS: And he went through the hydro line back onto the road. Just to see if he could get through with his truck. [laugh] That’s all it was. Joy riding.

PS: No. No, I wasn’t there. Period. [laugh] Not that evening. That’s for sure. And not … not for a long time I’m sure. I had no reason to go out that way. I lived at the dump. [laugh] I mean the other way. [laugh] Yeah. Like on the highway all the time. Yeah. To the dump.

PS: No. Well no. No. It was midnight.

PS: Yup.

DR: I watch Trevor as he talks to Sumner. He’s pretty good at this. Friendly, but trying to draw information from a man who is connected to him through tragedy, forever, it seems.

PS: Oh, of course, but what are you going to do?

PS: I did, but in my own way. And then just told them to do his job.

DR: You didn't know Kerrie either, eh? In anyway? Like she was younger, right?

DR: She had never been in your car as a lift or hitchhiking or anything?

DR: Did you ever drive by them at a bus stop? Do you remember driving by them...

DR: Another thing I want to ask Sumner is about a story I’ve heard from Kerrie’s friend, Rhonda Tennant.

DR: And...how did you know it was Patrick Sumner that drove by three or four times?

DR: So you're driving by looking at the girls kind of thing?

DR: Sumner says the passenger in his vehicle was a man with long hair, and that the three girls testified in court that he was female.

DR: Stories like this one about Sumner have circulated around Thompson and area for years. Mixes of truth and fiction.

TB: This ruined my life.

TB: You maybe don't remember, but way way back in the day, not long after Kerrie's death, we were in … you were coming out of Chicken Chef with a friend, a girl I knew from high school. But ….

TB: And I started yelling at you from a car and I had threatened...

TB: No… what I said is if I got my hands on you, I was going to kill you. And I wanted to.

TB: Yeah. Well, I want to apologize for that Pat. I did. And I’m sorry I did that to you.

TB: Oh, that's good. I'm glad you didn't. Cause you didn’t miss much. The cops. Yeah, I’m still pissed at the cops from back in the day. So...

TB: Yeah.

TB: No, no.

TB: I’ve never moved passed this.

TB: No, I've never... I don't have a family, I never got married, I have no kids. I.... I have… This… I've never moved passed this.

TB: No.

TB: No! It's not. It's not over. It's far from over.

TB: You think you will be dead before you any answers?

TB: I'm optimistic we're going to have something before then.

TB: I have to be. I have to be.

TB: Let’s rock and roll.

TB: Yeah.

PS: Yeah. You could talk to me if you really want to.

PS: I know. I’ve seen you. I’ve seen you a few times. And I know you can’t see well.

PS: Take care, Trev.

[Sound: A slap on the back hug]

[Sound: A door closes, TB and DR walking]

DR: Yeah.

DR: Yeah.

DR: Yeah. Probably.

DR: Careful!

DR: Watch the mud there. You alright?

DR: Okay. His body language was very…

DR: And kind of ….

DR: What do you think Jim’s going to think of it?

TB: Yeah, I gave him a hug. I was surprised how small he was. Given how small he is now, gives me an idea how small he was back then in 1986. He is about only about 5'8 ... 5'9. Not a big guy. If that had been him and my sister back in the day, she would have left him with some distinct injuries. Cause she was tough for a little chick. Like she didn't fight. She didn't go looking for trouble. But I use to wrestle with her. She was strong. 5'1, 115lbs. But boy she was tough. She had good endurance too... yeah. I'm sure if she had to tangle with him back in the day, he would have had marks to show for it. For sure.

TB: I won’t go out of my way to talk to him. But if I see him or he comes up to me in public or something I’ll talk to him sure. I won’t seek him out.

TB: How're you doing brother?

TB: You all mic'd up or something there?

TB: Nice. What are you driving? Did they give you this... different jeep this time eh?

DR: We going inside? You bet!

DR: Trevor is everybody’s brother.

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TRANSCRIPT: Someone Knows Something - Season 5, EP 10

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