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SKS Season 5 Episode 9 : “Marnie”

[Music: Theme]

DR: Well, ideally I would love to use anything you told me in the podcast.

DR: Marnie worked at the Thompson detachment for ten years, 22 years in total for the RCMP, she was on duty the night Kerrie Brown disappeared. And She took a while to get hold of.

DR: Marnie’s straight-forward though cautious voice on the other end of the phone is the same I heard in the off-record interview that APTN’s Ken Jackson had conducted over five years ago.

MS: Nobody. Nobody.

MS: Okay. Alright. Well, you can call them and tell them that I'll go ahead with it.

MS: I just wish that something could have been done at the time. And that's the worst part of the whole thing for me is that, if it would have been done at the time, something would have come of it, I think. I feel it in my gut.

DR: There you are.

DR: How are you?

DR: I’m good.

DR: But this one in the center looks pretty clean.

DR: If it rains, we can be under there.

MS: My dad was in the Army. My dad is himself an Indigenous person from Hazelton, B.C. My brothers and I were all adopted. Mom and dad...lived in Germany for a while. He probably did about 29 years in the Army. Retired went to the rocket range in Churchill. So we grew up in Fort Churchill. And then from there worked for the government in northern Manitoba, you know?

MS: So got around. Yup.

MS: So I was working in the telecommunications centre in Thompson detachment, and it was on a Thursday night to Friday morning. Probably around... and I'm guessing because it was so long ago, around 2:00 o'clock in the morning. I know it was the early hours of Friday morning when I received the phone call from a male ….. who was quite stressed. He was… seemed to be terrified that I was recording the conversation that we were having. He kept saying it over and over ‘you’re recording the conversation. I just want to speak to...’ And then he gave a French member's name in Norway House detachment. And I kept trying to explain to him that I can't get him to phone you if you don't give me a phone number or even your name. And he kept going back to the fact that ‘I know you're recording this’ and he sounded to be quite scared. He had said that he had just killed someone and had to talk to this member.

DR: Had Marnie been talking to one of the men who killed Kerrie Brown?

DR: Marnie says she phoned the RCMP member who worked in Norway House immediately after hanging up from the call from the self-professed killer and later, tells me about playing the recording to the officer.

DR: Tell me what you can about the caller and what they said and what you could tell from their voice?

DR: Accent?

DR: So...an Indigenous person.

DR: Did he say during the call ‘I'm calling from Norway House’?

DR: Okay.

DR: Okay.

MS: So my shift ended ... at around 7:00 o'clock in the morning.

MS: This is the Friday.

MS: Yeah. And I went home slept. And the next day was a Saturday.

MS: So it wasn't until Saturday morning. Probably the early afternoon actually I had found out from someone at that detachment — I was off — I wasn't working. But that they had found a body...in Thompson. And it was Kerrie Brown. That phone call that I had Thursday night was still in my mind... When I heard that her body had been found …. I immediately just connected the two. I went straight to the detachment, I pulled the tape of that phone conversation and I tagged it. And then a lot was going on at that time. You had the city detachment members, you had GIS. Different sections coming together to work on this and they were extremely busy.

DR: So tell me what happened after that? You called John Tost on Saturday?

DR: How do you mark that, with a piece of paper then?

(crosstalk)

MS: Yeah.

MS: No, no.

MS: It was stuck in between the tape itself …

MS: At the exact spot. It couldn't have fallen out… And it wasn't until later on that I realised that the tape was still there...

MS: Probably about a month later. We had bulk tapes that recorded everything that came through. And these bulk tapes would be put in a system where they would probably be used over again in about a three-month period. So once you got back to that tape, it would be bulk erased...and then re-used. So I was pretty sure that nobody had come in to make a recording of the tape. It was still sitting where it was and didn't look like it had moved at all.

MS: That was the last time.

DR: Do you know if a copy of the tape exists?

DR: I had asked former RCMP investigator Jon Tost about this call that Marnie says she recorded.

JT: No, I don't. I recall no such thing. I really don't. Had we heard that, we would've followed up on it.

DR: Okay. So to your recollection at the time, there was no phone call or no follow up on a phone call like that.

JT: Just basically a little bit of social media.

DR: John Tost said he’d never heard of this call.

DR: Sometime shortly after the investigation into Kerrie’s murder began Jean Marc Villeneuve says he heard a heated discussion between Jon Tost and Dennis Heald about the call near his desk at the Thompson detachment. Villeneuve says at the time, he heard enough to know the discussion was about a call Marnie had received and that Norway House was discussed. Afterwards, over time, as details became filled in by Marnie, he says he realized what that conversation was about.

MS: Well you know I think he was you know an average member. There wasn't anything that was negative about him at all. I think that he really...has, you know, I'm sorry to say this, but it sounds like he's a little bitter. I don't know what happened at the end of his career with the RCMP. I know he really wants to find out what happened with the Kerrie Brown murder. But I found him when he spoke to me to be a little bit forceful...And I was still working there. And I thought I don’t want bitterness and anger. And I understand how it hurt Marc, you know? Like he wasn't involved in the investigation other than being there that day. But she's a 15-year-old girl. So I understand that. But it should be done in the right way. It should be done, to me, to not be stomping all over the RCMP. A mistake was made. Where do we go from here...I didn't want to be a part of...let's blast the RCMP for all their wrongdoing and everything else and and I just didn't want it to be like a circus.

JA: Yeah.

DR: In the interview with RCMP that I conducted months before I spoke to Marnie in person, I asked Constable Janna Amirault about the phone call, and Jean Marc Villeneuve’s online post about it.

JA: I had heard that that had happened...in my contact with the investigation. I don't know if ...Like Jean Marc isn't...isn't listed as an investigator involved in the file. He's not. I know he used to work in Thompson at one point in time, but he's not listed as one of the investigators that have ever worked on the file.

JA: He did work in Thompson.

JA: Yup.

JA: Yeah. It would have been followed up on. But whether he was privy to the information as to whether it was followed up on… if it's usually a homicide investigations, they hold the information close to their...their investigators. So, yeah.

DR: Did you tell Dennis Heald about the tape?

DR: Marnie is referring here to the investigative file on the Kerrie Brown case.

DR: After getting the call?

DR: That you talked to Dennis. And when you talked to Dennis, did you tell him about the call or did you ask him to read the file? Or both?

MS: Yes, yes.

DR: Who was the watch commander?

DR: Ok.

DR: During this call, Dennis Heald confirmed he has been suffering from the effects of Parkinson’s Disease, and said that his memory may be affected as a result.

DR: Can I ask you one question that John didn't recall, John didn't recall getting information from Marnie Schaefer about a phone call that she received… Just after Kerrie had disappeared. Did you hear about that phone call?

DR: You never heard about that call?

DR: Okay. And did you hear about it after the investigation?

DR: Okay. Do you remember her coming to you and saying, Dennis, this call came in and I think it's important?

DH: No.

DH: No, I didn't. Basically, John would do every... like we work in tandem I guess, ‘cause, most of the stuff we did we did together. What we didn't, we knew about.

DH: Anything that came in, if stuff came in to Marnie well... John should've heard about it and if he didn't I should've heard about it, but I didn't either so...

DH: And maybe it would make some difference if it did, but I don't know.

DR: Dennis Heald says he never heard about the call at the time — and therefore, he says, he never looked into it or ordered anyone else to. And I tell Marnie that...

MS: I can't… you know I really don't have anything to say… I can't change what he said. I mean I know what I know, right? It was so many years ago. It’s time to just, you know, get on with it and try to do the best that they can to try and solve this.

DR: Into the investigation.

DR: So then you had the file. What happened after that?

MS: Not... nothing.

DR: Did you read the whole file?

MS: I read the whole thing. I had time. It was on a weeknight during a midnight shift, and things were slow. And I read it, and I...there were some things in there that, you know, one thing stood out in particular. And that was when she was placed in the body bag, there was um, a black coarse hair not belonging to her. She had blonde hair. And I did bring this up with someone after the fact. I said ‘I don't understand why would this be in there.’ And I think it was John that I had spoken to and he said that ‘sometimes hairs can be left in there from a previous deceased person.’

DR: Was the hair sent for testing? Did it mention anything about testing or…

DR: That a hair was found.

DR: Patrick Sumner.

DR: So you weren't feeling too good about it then. And then we're here 30 years later. So you’ve held that?

MS: Probably about five or so.

DR: So you asked the person, is this in the file.

MS: Yeah. And they said...no. That nothing was in the file. I told them my story and...about what involvement I had with it. And I thought ‘okay,’ you know, it's been said again. And then probably later on... and this would probably be a good… 10 years or so… the file had now gone to Winnipeg headquarters. And I spoke to someone in headquarters about it, and they didn't know anything about it… either. So I felt like I was hitting my head against a wall. I couldn't understand why, especially after Patrick Sumner was let go. You’d think, okay, there isn't enough evidence to bring anything against him. You know, it … everything they were putting out into the media before when it came to her murder and that they were looking for no help or anything. I thought this would be when you would be writing about that one little thing...even if the tape has been erased and gone and there's nothing that can be done about it. To me, I thought, what about going into the community? What about...asking people some questions. Somebody knows something.

DR: So I contacted you… and then after we made our first contact on the phone, you decided to call headquarters to just… Why did you call RCMP in Winnipeg?

DR: Yeah.

DR: This is Janna Amirault?

DR: Constable Amirault gave me a very basic, even vague answer when I asked about the phone call Marnie received. But, she's apparently more forthcoming when talking to Marnie..

DR: What was the name?

DR: Can’t remember?

MS: That's what I thought it was.

MS: Yes.

MS: His name wasn't so important to me when she called me the next day. I really didn't care about his name. It was what are you going to tell me? What are you going to do? Can you talk to David from the CBC? Can something be done to help with this case at all? So she told me that in fact a member...and I think she said a female member, did go into Norway House and did speak to the French member who this person had requested to speak to.

MS: I don't know when. And I said to her...‘Well, you know, I read the file and I didn't see anything in there about anyone going into Norway House.’ And I didn't let her know how much of the file I had read or anything. And then she said ‘well’ she said ‘this was a file that was separate from the file.’ [silence]And I thought what do you mean a file that's separate from a file? Like back then, and sure it's true today too. You have a file. It's one file. You had volumes and volumes and volumes to that file depending on how long the case goes. But everything's together. There's no separate and away from an existing file. And she said ‘but I just wanted to let you know because I knew it would make you feel better that this was looked into.’ So immediately when I'm on the phone...This made me feel good for those first few seconds thinking that ‘oh, isn't that wonderful. You know, they did. They sent someone. They looked into it. Nothing could be done.’

MS: So I got off the phone with her. I thanked her very much...And then at the same time, I put my phone away and I'm walking to my vehicle...it just hit me that I think she said that to make me feel good. To make me not feel the need to talk to someone in the media, that it was taken care of and that was it. I started thinking about the other people that I had talked to at headquarters and at Thompson subdivision that never knew anything. Why didn't they tell me? Why didn't they say ‘yes Marnie, it's been looked into.’ You know my second question was why is there a file for this visit to Norway House that's separate from the other file? I couldn't understand this.

DR: What do you think went on?

DR: Did she tell you what the member found in Norway House?

DR: And that they went and spoke to the French member in Norway House.

DR: And nothing came of it.

DR: So, According to Marnie, Constable Janna Amirault told her in this recent phone call that someone went to Norway House and came up with nothing. What was done and when? And why was mention of it allegedly put into a separate file and by who?

DR: Lead investigators Dennis Heald and John Tost say they did not hear about the call at the time and, therefore, did not follow up on any information that could be related to it. So, if something was followed up on by RCMP, would it have been done without both lead investigators knowledge? Perhaps it was done after both men left the case? Tost says he transferred out of Thompson in July 1988, two years after Kerrie was murdered. Marnie says she was never interviewed by police about what she heard or the tape. She never gave a statement. So, how was anything done without an official police interview of Marnie, the witness to the call and what was said and how it was said? The tape, according to Marnie, hadn’t budged from its place for at least three weeks, and then she never saw it again.

TS: RCMP Media relations, bonjour.

TS: It is. Hi, David?

DR: Hi Janna.

DR: I'm good.

JA: I’m not exactly sure what information I’d be able to verify…

DR: Has RCMP looked at that hair?

JA: I can tell you in regards to any tests that are able to be done have been completed.

DR: Then, the main reason for my call…

JA: I think that part of what you have to keep in mind here is the magnitude of this investigation and how much work had been done and probably the amount... the little amount of sleep and stress and a lot of stress that these guys would have been under at the time. I can tell you that that information has been followed up on, and was followed up on around the time that they were, they were doing that investigation. So would it have been them specifically that would have followed up on it? No. But it would have been one of the investigators that they had involved in the investigation that would have…

JA: So their recollection of that specific phone call, may have to do with the passage of time, and that people's memories change over the passage of time and the information that they're able to recall, it just wasn't there for them.

DR: I understand, but a call of that magnitude, where someone has said that they've killed somebody, you would think that you know, on the day it was received, it's exactly when Kerrie Brown went missing, you'd think that someone would notice. [silence] Also, Marnie has said she was never interviewed by police about the call, so how could it have been followed up if she was never interviewed by police?

DR: Marnie's indicated...

DR: Marnie has indicated that nobody listened to the tape... based on the position she left it in...and she said that she had called the officer that... the member in Norway House afterwards, immediately after she received the call and tried to play the call for them over the phone, but the sound quality wasn't very good. And that member never called back...So I'm not sure where that lands...and if Dennis Heald and John Tost were leading the investigation, they would have known...about ordering somebody to look into this call, wouldn't they?

TS: And is documented in the file.

TS: Dave, we're telling you, it's in the file and it's been followed up on.

JA: I can't speak to... again, I'm going to say, I can't speak to their recollection from the time. There may be a reason why they don't recall that, but I'm telling you that it was followed up on.

JA: I don't have the date right in front of me, but it was followed up on.

JA: It's not something that I would share with you anyhow.

JA: Like I said, everybody has different recollections of what happens on an investigation. I don’t know how it was presented to them? There’s a bunch of different variables that could be taken into consideration in a situation like that. As to why they do not recall the phone call, I'm not exactly sure. I can't speak to them.

JA: That's inaccurate. That's not what I said.

JA: No, I did not. I said it was in the file.

TS: Ok, I think we're going to have to cut it off there. We've spoken to you about the call, said it's been followed up on, it's in the file. There's nothing else we can speak to about it.

TS: We wouldn’t provide that in any type of homicide investigation, so we're not going to provide that here.

DR: The evening Kerrie disappears, the Thursday night and then early that Friday morning, a call came in to the RCMP and on the other end of the line was a male who said...'I've just killed somebody and I'm upset and I don't know what to do and are you recording this?' And then they hung up. Do you remember hearing anything about that call?

DR: Right, and your review of the file, it's not something that...

DR: And there’s more...

DR: After I spoke to Marnie by phone — and she agreed to go on the record — she wanted to verify a few things herself. I’d told her that John Tost didn’t remember the phone call. So she decided to reach out to Dennis Heald to see if he might remember.

DR: He called you.

DR: Okay.

DR: So you never gave him your house?

DR: The story of how you worked as a telecom operator.

MS: Or anything...

DR: You hadn’t said ‘I got a phone call the guy…

DR: I think was from Norway House.

DR: So you didn’t say anything…

DR: You didn't say anything about a phone call to him.

MS: No. So I let them talk and he started talking about...the Kerrie Brown murder, and he said that he feels that it's going to be difficult to solve this case because he's gone through so many hands. As years go on and time goes on it does get more difficult. People forget. People can't, you know. So I agreed with him. And I said ‘but there's still a chance’. And he said ‘yeah’ he said ‘I'd like to see it solved’. So I thought that's, you know, that's really good. He then all of a sudden said that...the ball was dropped with the Norway House call. And I said ‘Dennis, what do you mean the Norway House call?’ Because see to me I'm thinking he doesn't remember who I am. I'm the one that took that Norway House call, right. And …

MS: No. No.

MS: And I said ‘What do you mean the ball was dropped of the Norway House call?’ And he said...he said ‘well’ he said ‘you know, the guy who called from Norway House’. I said ‘oh okay’. I didn't go in to asking him anything. I didn't say, Dennis, you know I was the one that took the call. I didn't say anything at all about it. And… there was one other thing that he said when he was discussing this case. He said he was the one that was the person that was responsible for transporting the blood samples. And...he feels...um...that he may have done something wrong in that transfer. And he used the word contaminated. Again, I didn't go and ask him what makes you feel you contaminated the specimens. Whether that was in the process of putting them in the container. What...who, what it was, I don't know. Because I was still feeling, and still do, if I had to repeat that call I don't think I would. I don't think I would ask him. Because I don't know how his mind is working.

DR: Hello?

TS: Yeah, so, there was just... It wasn't appreciated on the end of either John or Dennis that that went down that way. So I said that I would mention that to you, because Dennis is quite ill. Um...so... [SIGH] So that's that.

DR: In talking to Dennis Heald, Marnie told me that he actually said he dropped the ball on the Norway House call, and he also said he was afraid of contaminated blood samples in the case. Is that something that... and I know Dennis has suffered and is suffering from Parkinson's, and may have some effects on his memory because of that. Is that something you're aware of?

JA: It's nothing I'm familiar with.

DR: I had asked Marnie if she ever heard anything about the three men that Villeneuve said had been pulled over by an officer named Donnie Fisher in a van with an air mattress in it the weekend before Kerrie was killed. I had made brief contact with one of the two brothers who Trevor had spoken to over Facebook, and scheduled a phone call with him, but whenever I called there was no answer, and the line soon was disconnected. And then he stopped communicating all together. Marnie hadn’t heard of them... but she did know Donnie Fisher, and decided on her own volition to try to get in touch with him.

MS: Well, I contacted him. I asked him how he was doing.

MS: It was Facebook.

DR: I tried contacting Donnie. I left messages on his phone. And I'm certain that it was the right phone number. And left probably four messages, and they each becoming more detailed. And I sent a Facebook message to him, have not received any responses. And...the last time I tried his number a few days ago, the number had gone defunct. So I can't reach him.

MS: I sort of felt at the beginning when the whole case started that John had his mind set on one person. You know, that's not something that's uncommon in police investigations… it can happen to anyone. I think that does more for people in the general public to say ‘okay, you know what, everyone makes mistakes.’ This was how many years ago...the RCMP in my mind...should be saying ‘yes, you know, we had tunnel vision.’...this is what happened, but...we're working on it, and we're looking for anything that we can to …. And...be honest, and open, transparent. You know all the things that a family who's lost a loved one wants to hear, right? And that's why...I'm saying what I'm saying. So I left on good terms with the RCMP, and I would never do anything to hurt anyone. And I never would with Dennis. I never would with John even if John called me and said that, ‘I don't remember Marnie’. Okay John. You don't remember.

DR: This information has never really been taken in by the people who need to hear it. So it’s exciting to me in some ways, and troubling as well from an investigative standpoint looking at the original investigation.

DR: It's easy to blame the police, right? And then...start to focus on blaming the police. And then it's like, what about a solution right. What about finding a way forward. Because they need to be motivated too... the police. They need to be motivated that they have to try to do something.

DR: Well, the family thanks you for coming forward.

ATW: You have been listening to Episode 9: Marnie. Visit: www.cbc.ca/sks to see exclusive photos, videos and documents from the investigation. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about Kerrie Brown’s murder, visit: www.cbc.ca/sks, or email the show: SKS@cbc.ca Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content? Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter: @SKSCBC. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cesil Fernandes and produced by Chris Oke, Steph Kampf, Amil Delic, Eunice Kim and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Federman. Our theme song is “Thompson Girl” by The Tragically Hip.

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TRANSCRIPT: Someone Knows Something - Season 5, EP 9

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