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SKS S5 E8 "Other Brother

[Music: Theme]

This is Episode 8: Other Brother.

DR: Autism.

DR: [laughin] What’s that disease?

DR: He’s used to having you around?

DR: That’s why you came back, to take care of him, right?

DR: It's clear but mosquitoey outside, and Trevor and I are on another late night drive around Thompson. We're re-tracing again the possible routes Kerrie may have taken the night she disappeared. Ian, Kerrie and Trevor's half brother, comes up in conversation.

TB: He had deviances, my brother Ian. He had sexual deviances towards young girls and stuff… I'll tell you this, Dave. My brother got shipped off to Winnipeg when we were teenagers, when Kerrie and I were teenagers. Because of sexual... something happened. I don't know what, Dave. And I'll be honest, I don't.

TB: I've talked to my dad about it. He won't talk about it. But my brother got shipped off to Winnipeg because of something that happened in Thompson with a young girl. Before he moved back into the house... I know for a fact when I was 14, Kerrie would've been 13 or 12. Ian got sent away to Winnipeg.

TB: He had his own place in Highland Towers on Thompson. That place with the wolf on the side?

TB: And something happened in there with a young girl's underwear being found in his apartment.

DR: So was your brother ever treated as a suspect in this case?

TB: I don't know. My dad's memory's a wreck. Fucked, I'll be honest with ya. But my dad remembers my brother bringing muddy footprints inside the house. And my dad asking him why the hell did you come through the basement window? He said I didn't want to wake anybody up. My brother was living in the basement...He had a room in the basement...

TB: Right.

TB: He had an aggressive side. He used to hit… he lived common law with this woman in Winnipeg. I lived in Winnipeg...and Ian lived in Winnipeg at the same time. He was common law with a woman for almost 20 years. And at the end, he was knocking her around.

TB: Oh yeah.

DR: So Ian, your brother, was he able to drive at the time?

DR: How did he get around?

DR: Did he have any friends?

DR: Yeah. So he probably didn't have the ability to mobilize on his own and get out here.

DR: Right? All the way out this road here.

RB: Uh, her brother actually bought a car off me, I remember her brother was just this tiny little unassuming guy that I sorta almost felt bad for.

RB: Yeah.

DR: What kind of car did Ian buy from you?

RB: Ohh...well obviously before this incident.

RB: Yeah. So you know I remember like Ian would come by and I think it was Trevor, little brother would be tagging along with him. And he had come you know, and Ian had just turned 16 or whatever, so this was his first car. So you know, and then he had come by the shop many a time you know, kind of looking at different things and whatever, so Kerrie actually may have even come by at one time with them, I don't really recall.

DR: Do you know what colour that car was?

DR: Is that a straight 8?

DR: Did Ian seem different to you as a person…

DR: Trevor doesn't seem to have direct knowledge about Ian's car, but Ian apparently drove it without a licence, and parked it away from the Brown house. It all makes me wonder again, about the car seen coming out of the stable road that night.

DR: Does he still talk to you or not?

DR: He self-medicates

DR: Most times, as you know, when there's a murder, and it's a family member, and there are family members in the house, they're often treated as suspects right off the bat….Even yourself and your dad...

DR: So you would've been looked at. Your dad would've been looked at.

DR: You have to clear the closest people to her, yeah. So did you ever get interviewed by the police as a suspect kind of thing?

DR: No.

DR: Yep.

DR: What was your brother Ian's relationship like with Kerrie?

DR: Why not?

DR: Did Kerrie ever say anything to you that suggested she might have been afraid of Ian?

DR: Who did…

DR: She told Nicole that?

DR: Kerrie's friend Nicole says that Ian was loud, would shout, and swear and that she and Kerrie were uncomfortable around him and tended to avoid him. She also says they were young and didn't understand Ian's diagnosis.

TB: Yeah, no, no. It's relevant. It's relevant, Dave. It is. Our family's far from perfect.

TB: : That I don't remember.

TB: Well, Ian was indifferent. Indifferent….I don't think he was capable of the same emotion that the rest of us were. I asked Ian, kind of last ditch, did you have anything to do with this?

TB: I don't think he did. I don't think he did, Dave.

TB: I know he would've said something. My brother's a talker. He says things when he shouldn't say things. God almighty...he would've said something to somebody by now, no question.

TB: He would tell you what he thought.

DR: I wanted to talk to you about your son Ian...

DR: Trevor and I have found Jim in the kitchen cooking a stew on the stovetop.

DR: What was his relationship with Kerrie like?

JB: No, no. He wasn't a strong person or anything like that, that he could fight. He would stick up for himself a little bit, but he would get bullied more than, more than not. Yeah. No. He wasn't like a quarrelsome guy at all, no.

JB: No.

JB: Well, we all took the DNA. He did, Trevor did. I did. But I mean, that's just natural to do. But no, there was nobody ever come question him here or took him somewhere else and questioned him or anything. He was not… in fact, that night, I believe he was working at the bus depot. He cleaned the washrooms out after the bus left.

JB: When they'd come in and went out, he had the job going in, cleaning that up. I believe that's what he was doing that night. But he had his own little room in the basement down there….but he had his own privacy.

JB: Uhh... I don't think nothing serious. He stole a car one time...and he wound up out the highway there and went to miss a rabbit or something on the road and rolled the car over and ruined that. That's a stolen car and...

JB: He had no licence at that time. He did eventually get his licence. Do you think Ian had some kind of a disorder?

JB: I do remember talk of it, yes.

JB: No.

JB: For what?

JB: I didn't send him anywhere.

JB: I don't...

JB: I know it was something about a car there that he was pissing around, working with a car and the little girl come there, and there was maybe something said about him touching her or something?

JB: I remember him going to school there. That's all I thought it was, a school.

TB: That's a group home for boys that get into trouble.

TB: Burning stew.

TB: Hey dad. You did at some point consider Ian might have had something to do with Kerrie's murder in a strange way. You were so...out of your mind with who did this a few years ago, that you considered Ian might have something to do with it. And I confronted him on it. I told him what you had said to me about the muddy boots and coming in.

JB: I remember he was working at the bus depot...but I heard him come home. I was sitting at the table doing a hockey pool. And he didn't come through the door. He come through the basement window. And so when he come in, I went to the cellar door. I said 'you're home are you?' He said 'yes. Is Kerrie home yet?' I said 'Kerrie's sleeping over.' And that's basically all I know about that.

JB: But I found the next day — and the police said I should have told him — he left a pair of rubber boots at the step had a lot of mud on them. And I thought that was kind of odd.

DR: But muddy boots.

DR: Out here?

DR: Just out on the front steps. Okay.

DR: What time was it when you were sitting there?

JB: Oh! No idea. Just that it was late...

JB: Could have been. Could have very well been. Yeah.

JB: The part that got me with him that concerned at all, we were up in the bedroom. Your mother was crying, and I'm in the same room, and Ian comes in. And he said...

JB: "She got what she deserved. She just wouldn't fucking listen." That's exactly what he said. "She would not listen." And I told you that on the phone when you were in Winnipeg, and you were more or less going to go right over there.

JB: Yes, I did.

JB: I'm not going to say another word about anything if I'm going to just argue with you.

TB: That would imply that he was there and saw it.

JB: Right.

JB: Mhm.

JB: Uh... not particularly. She was, in that point in time, for about three weeks, just steady crying. She was so upset. I don't believe Ian had anything to do with that, really.

JB: I would say Kerrie would overpower Ian.

JB: He wouldn't have been able to manhandle her.

JB: In my mind, anyway.

JB: The DNA anyway...and...the DNA didn't match. They've got two DNAs there and certainly nobody in our family matched. It wasn't one person.

JB: Well, you feel like talking to him, you can get a hold of him. But like I say, we haven't even heard from him in a long time.

DR: It's just, you know, one of those tiny percentages that I'd like to explore. But is it going to cause trouble for you?

DR: Yeah, it'd be interesting to eliminate him because you wonder the theory that Trevor has, and I think you, is that she may have known the person, right? So he may have been somehow in the car. Who knows…

TB: Sunglasses…

JB: You got your suitcase?

JB: Say goodbye? Just get! I’ll be glad to get rid of you.

JB: Carry on.

DR: Nice suitcase you got there.

DR: Packed with beer and drugs?

DR: Do you think Jim's gonna miss yah?

DR: We drive on for a while making idle conversation...

DR: Like the square?

DR: Stopping for short breaks so Trevor can smoke or when we see a full adult bald eagle fly up from the side of the road.

TB: Yeah, that was awesome man…

DR: And listening to Trevor sing.

DR: Before Kerrie was murdered Trevor had considered a career as a singer. Someone even told him he could do opera.

DR: Kerrie used to hold up her phone to Trevor's room so her friends could hear him practising singing rock songs in his mirror.

DR: But he hasn't sung much in the over 30 years since then.

DR: It was pretty good I thought.

DR; What's the title of the song?

DR: So now we're heading out to see Ian, Ian Brown. And he's staying at a little hotel downtown. And we're going to try to find him and. And hopefully, he's okay to talk tonight….You haven't seen your brother in a long time.

DR: You'll have questions for him that are much different probably than I do. I'm just focused on finding out...his knowledge of Kerrie, that evening, that whole time that she was missing, the aftermath.

DR: And just kind of go through it, his timeline…

DR: We park on a deserted street and walk toward a building on a corner in the distance. An old prairie style hotel with a bar downstairs and rooms for rent above it. A sign on the side says "Friendliest Place in Town", in the distance against the darkening sky, we can just make out a bridge with a river flowing underneath.

DR: Well, there's a fire escape going up, but I don't want to go up that. Looks like it's being held up by a two-by-four.

DR: There's a little door at the back that says open.

[Sound: Train horns]

TB: Yeah.

BARTENDER: Hello.

BARTENDER: Good.

BARTENDER: Oh, at the front. Like if you go out that way...

DR: Behind a steel fire door we find an ancient staircase with a threadbare carpet over wooden steps.

DR: I look up into the gloom and see some yellow light coming from an open doorway at a landing several flights above.

DR: Maybe that's the floor where we'll find room number 18.

DR: Do you want to knock?

[Sound: A knocking on a door, someone says come in]

[Sound: Door opening]

TB: Room 18. Ian? Ian?

IAN BROWN: Trevor?

IB: Where are you?

DR: It turns out that Ian isn't in his room, but down the hall in another watching the hockey I'm hearing on a big TV.

TB: I'm over here, you knucklehead.

TB: How's it going, man?

DR: Ian's had a few drinks from the sounds of it.

IB: Oh! Oh! Should I punch him? Yeah, I promised Mommy. I will not live...fucking [unintelligible]

IB: Okay?

IB: You were there.

IB: Come on in.

IB: Come on in. Let’s talk.

IB: No. This is a friend of mine.

IB: This is my fucking brother.

TB: Yeah.

TB: You're having a few pops. So Ian, I'm here with a guy.

TB: We're working on a documentary about Kerrie, okay?

TB: Aaand…

TB: A documentary about Kerrie. And he'd really like to talk to you about, just a lot of stuff because you're her brother. Of course.

TB: You're having a few pops tonight. I think he would prefer to do it with you when you're sober and this is serious.

TB: In the morning. Ian.

TB: So we'll see you in the morning, okay bro?

IB: The side door.

IB: Bang on the side door. Just let me know when you guys are going to show up.

IB: Okay.

DR: We'll see you.

DR: Thanks man.

DR: Enjoy the game.

[Sound: talking in background, laughter]

TB: Okay.

TB: I'm right behind you brother. Right behind you.

TB: Hey Dave. Buy you a six pack if you want?

DR: Okay, let’s go.

DR: Take my hand?

DR: In the daylight, some things seem a bit more cheerier.

TB: Oh, I see that now. Thanks.

TB: Oh really?

[Sound: Walking and a knock on a door]

TB: Sorry?

TB: Leaving? Really? Oh.

TB: Ian.

TB: He knew we were coming. What time is it, Dave?

TB: Yeah, we told him we'd be here at nine.

TB: He might hang or head to?

DR: Trevor and I go outside, and after a bit of looking Ian appears around the corner. He’s in the same clothes now covered with an oversized black fleece pullover.

IB: Yep.

DR: Rather than go back inside the hotel, we decide to chat in the rental.

DR: Great. Thanks for doing this. I was going to put the window down a bit. Give us a bit of freedom here. There we go. So just Ian, tell me who you are and where we are here.

IB: It was a little strained. We... really didn't often see eye-to-eye together. Trevor was more closer to her than I was. Being a year apart from each other. And I was in Greendale Group Home for fucking two years down in Winnipeg, so. I didn't really get to know her that well. As much as I would've loved it, you know what I mean?

IB: Well... I was — me and EB Dockhorn — were working at Highway Inn with... And.. it was a long day. I'm getting tired, suppertime. The mechanic's wife came into the restaurant for her fucking supper. She sat down, and EB was right beside the window, and I sat on the outside. And we started talking. EB said Ian, let her read your palms. I put my hand out, and she put her fingers across my palms. And then all of a sudden, she just got up and walked right out of the restaurant...She had a strange look on her face like she'd seen something. But she couldn't tell me what it was. And I knew something… something bad was going to happen. I just had that funny feeling. And so I called the house, and Kerrie answered the phone.

IB: Her girlfriend was at the house. [cough] They were going to a party at Ray's stables. And we were supposed to meet there after work, but we got called in because there was a double bus coming in. So we were there all night, so. I called and let her know that I couldn't make the party at Ray's stables. I told her just stay home. Don't go anywhere. Stay put until you hear from me. I'll try and get there as soon as I can possibly get. Okay? But she didn't obviously listen and... things happen. So. Me and EB... what was it, next day, I think?

IB: Yeah. Next day, we went out looking for her. And... you know okay, maybe she stayed over at Ray's Stables, at Ray’s place for the night. And her and Rhonda. And EB went over there. They haven't seen her. And well, where can they be?

ERWIN DOCKHORN: My mother used to babysit them.

DR: Oh, is that right?

ED: Yeah.

DR: Dockhorn remembers going around with Ian to look for Kerrie on the Friday...but he cannot remember looking for her at at the stables as Ian says they did.

DR: So how did you get around then when you were...

DR: Dockhorn also can’t remember who drove or who’s car they were in. He says they looked into the notion that Kerrie might have been picked up by a cab and dropped off somewhere, but it ended up going nowhere. And he says he wasn’t with Ian the night before on the Thursday when Kerrie was at the party on Trout Crescent.

ED: No. I never hung around him as if... back then, I was freshly on my own and you go to the bar,

you do this and that with your friends and he wasn't one of them that I went with [laugh]. I had my

own, different people that I hung out with, you know, different friends. And the thing with that night... 1986?

ED: Ok yeah. I'm trying to think where I was working at the time. But no, I never hung around with him, like I wouldn't have been with him that night.

IB: And I pulled up to home, and didn't know until the next day, which is I guess Friday.

IB: Saturday afternoon… And then I find out they found a body. Couple of riders found Kerrie's body on the hydro line. And… You were there, Trev. Fuckin' you know what I'm talking about.

IB: Then I don't know what happened.

IB: Um... well, like I said. EB.

IB: Went to Ray’s stables.

IB: Cos... um... you know, um... that's where they were going to party, on those hydro lines.

DR: You remember talking to Kerrie, and she said she was going to go to the stables?

TB: That's my other problem, Ian. Kerrie would not want to be drinking with you. You didn't drink with Kerrie. I didn't drink with Kerrie. Kerrie had her own very close-knit group of friends that she drank together with, Ian. They didn't go drinking in the bush, I can assure you. They drank at people's houses because they could.

[Sound: Shuffling]

IB: I don't wanna...

TB: The Meteor?

TB: You didn't have it at the time of Kerrie's death, did you?

DR: You had the brown Meteor?

DR: Did you used to drive it around?

DR: Do you think you would've been driving around that night somewhere in it?

DR: Even in the likely event that he had nothing to do with Kerrie’s disappearance, could Ian’s car have been seen coming out of the stable roads the night Kerrie disappeared?

IB: I don't know.

IB: Anyway.

TB: Ian. Hold on, Ian. It's okay.

DR: Again, Ian grabs the door handle. Ever since he said off the top, he'd considered walking off the bridge ahead of us I've felt sick. I try to calm it down a bit and motion for Trevor to try to slow his pace and tone of questioning.

TB: Sorry.

IB: I just don't like talking about it.

IB: Okay. I just... I...

IB: Yeah. They asked me a few questions. They asked where were you kind of thing. I told them I was at work. When I... What kind of car do you drive? I said old Meteor. And they said well, we checked the car out from Pat Sumner and it was like a car, just like mine.

IB: Yeah.

IB: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. They checked the whole nine yards.

DR: But did you ever think that they were looking at you as possibly having something to do with Kerrie's murder? Did you ever think the police were...

TB: I went down there with him.

DR: Jim said to me that he remembered you came in late that night and you came in through the basement window...? Do you remember that? With muddy feet or something?

DR: Okay.

TB: That's okay.

IB: Might have been.

IB: Could've been. Yeah. I might've. But I mean, that was a long time ago and you know, you're talking years here.

IB: For one thing, I can tell you right now. She would not have crossed the bridge. She was afraid of bridges. Even going up to the cabin. Eh, Trev?

TB: Duck down.

IB: Yeah. Paranoid schizophrenia.

IB: Yes, I am.

IB: A bit.

IB: Okay.

IB: Yeah.

DR: And with that, the interview with Ian draws to an end.

TB: Well, we didn't let anybody know we were coming. Dave likes to work that way.

TB: Be safe.

TB: I have your address. I have your address. And both stay in touch, okay?

TB: You don't have a phone in your room, right?

TB: Okay.

TB: I can send you mail though.

TB: I'll write ya. I'll write ya.

TB: Okay, bro? I love you, man.

TB: I'm sorry I went off there for a second. I bit on his bait. He says what do you think, Trev? I don't remember any of this. Like he's never... some of those things he was saying, I've never heard it. He's never told me that story about talking to Kerrie and meeting at the stables for a party. And it never happened. She didn't party with him. She didn't party with me. She had her own circle, and she knew where she was going then. It wasn't the stables. The car's intriguing, eh? I don't remember him having it at that time, Dave. But I could be wrong.

TB: Kay.

DR: Similar to the one that was seen.

DR: And driving around, he doesn't remember... like it's really hard, you know. I don't know how to go further with Ian. I think... you know, it's difficult with his condition. He says he's been diagnosed...he's got medication. How can you dissect or take in and examine what he says? You're here. You know your information, and he has his version of information. I mean we all manufacture facts out of thin air. But his facts and his thin air are a bit different on the spectrum, right? Or they may be. They may or may not be. But I'm intrigued. He did have a car that looked like…

like one of those.

DR: So Ian is going to have to remain that. There's going to be a question mark on Ian cos I don't think that any... I mean he himself said DNA was taken. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of transit involved or some kind of... something he can't remember, right? I have someone in my life who has OCD, and uh you have to train yourself to be comfortable with the unknown. You have to be comfortable with uncertainty. And I guess I have to be comfortable with this uncertainty around Ian.

DR: He is.

DR: He is.

ATW: You have been listening to Episode 8: “Other Brother”. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about Kerrie Brown’s murder, visit www.cbc.ca/SKS, or email the show at SKS@cbc.ca. Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content? Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter: @SKSCBC. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cesil Fernandes, and produced by Chris Oke, Steph Kampf, Amil Delic, Eunice Kim and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Federman. Our theme song is “Thompson Girl” by The Tragically Hip.

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TRANSCRIPT: Someone Know Something - Season 5, EP 8

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